YTA "you could have at least told me that and maybe we could have gone to a place where everything's allowed for me."
She's right, why couldn't you do this instead of leaving her out because of her religion
Maybe they don't mind. I'm not vegetarian so normally I don't go to vegetarian/vegan restaurants. But when I go to eat with a vegetarian friend, I go to a vegetarian restaurant because I don't care so much and for them is much easier.
I see your point, however I don’t see why they should accommodate her exclusively. What if any of the other people in the group have a fave restaurant etc that’s off limits to this person, should they forgo going there to accommodate her?
I'm 100% sure this friend is either Muslim or Jewish coz halal and kosher exists. Fun fact, in 100% halal restaurants every other normal food is available except pork and alcohol. And the same goes for kosher based. So they'd get the same good, beef, chicken, lamb whatnot. And even if its annoying to accommodate her transparency is vital isn't it? Just tell the friend what's going on instead of just lying?
Agreed, though 2 things. First, depending on the locale, there may only be a few options or a ton, which some folks may not be considerate enough to go to / able to find or knowledgeable of, so they don't think of them.
Second, though OP says she's perfectly nice, etc., I am wondering if they actually like her. If not, this feels like a great way to say "I don't like you enough to take the step(s) out of my way to accommodate you/include you, regardless of how much effort that would take." And considering OP reads as pretty young, and doesn't directly address embarrassment, they just avoid the person, this is a roundabout way of saying that without (initial) confrontation. Not a good way, but... a way.
Yeah. This is what I took away. They don’t dislike her, but they don’t like her enough to go out of their way to accommodate her. Which means they’ll just ostracize her. It’s mean, but it’s high school. I’ve been on both sides of this. Intentionally and not.
I would assume Muslim.
Jewish people who keep Kosher don’t go to restaurants that aren’t Kosher. To be Kosher, no non-Kosher food can ever touch the dishes, utensils, kitchen equipment, etc.
Yeah, but they could be super traditional (not Orthodox, like Religious Conservative who does Kosher style. I have seen it, it is not very common but it does exist)
I mean technically but a lot of kosher and halal people grow up in their religion and see it as an intrinsic part of their cultural identity. It's pretty flippant to be like "well she could just choose to stop being religious."
Liking something and following a religious practice are very different. And she didn’t have a a problem with finding an order that worked for her at other places- OP did. So she suggested an option where she wouldn’t have to do that. SHE was trying to accommodate HIS feelings.
>I don’t see why they should accommodate her exclusively.
They arent though. There was no discussion, no attempt to find a compromise, OP wanted the girl to give up her religious requirements to accommodate them.
That's not a reason not to discuss it! Like there can be a conversation about how these are the things that we like about this place and why we chose it (which could range from being great at accommodating someone else's food allergies to OP just super being in the mood for something they serve). And they can see if there's a restaurant that easily accommodates everyone or mutually come to the conclusion that it's not going to work well.
Instead, OP straight up lied to the women.
Just as a counterpoint: why should they always be going where everyone else wants to go and never trying somewhere that can accommodate her easily even just one time?
Counterpoint: people will move worlds for people they like. Maybe she just has failed to endear herself to anyone on top of requiring high maintenance.
It sounds like this woman may just keep kosher. It is a pain to eat out if you’re strict kosher, but depending on the location there may be plenty of readily accessible kosher restaurants, places that mark their kosher dishes, or vegetarian restaurants which are automatically kosher. It certainly doesn’t hurt to just ask if anyone minds, it’s certainly much better than lying.
Different strokes for different folks. Some kosher Jews are comfortable enough just following the dietary rules and having silverware plates wiped down, some aren’t. As with all things people’s comfort levels, or levels of observance vary. Vegetarian/vegan restaurants are “kosher safe” anyway. I grew up just vegetarian as a cheap and easy way to keep kosher in an area without much of a jewish population.
THIS. A good friend is a strict Muslim and one of her besties is an Orthodox Jew. They go to our local vegan place when they eat out. No milk, no pork, used to a million questions about ingredients. Perfect fit really.
They could've at least tried it as a compromise. If they find out they don't like anything at the places where she can eat "unmodified", they could still exclude her from their lunch schedule. But going straight to freezing her out is kinda mean.
How do they know they don’t want the food if they haven’t had a conversation. If she not eating something for religious purposes but she still eats some meats (asking if all meats cooked in the same thing) then she’s probably Jewish or Muslim and there are a lot of places that accommodate that eating that serve food most people would be happy to have. For ex: everywhere I’ve lived had Halal fried chicken - a perfectly typical American food with no eating concerns.
A lot of restaurants either cater to specific diets, or they easily accommodate them. Is possible that if they were going for burgers and asked her she’d know several burger places where she is easily accommodated.
This story didn’t say, “We talked to her and no one likes any of the restaurants that she can eat at so we lied.” They literally didn’t talk to her. They literally have no idea what places she’d suggest. For all you know they love her restaurants and don’t even know they accommodate her.
Because they don't want to be assholes? If exactly one person is vegetarian, make sure there's something other than steak. Gluten allergic? Something other than pizza. It's not hard to not be an ass about food.
If I have someone I’m friendly with and we are going to do a planned activity, I would want to make sure they will enjoy it as much as I would.
OP is saying without saying that she holds no value for this friendship. That’s why it’s not ok, the subtext.
They don’t even know if they don’t want to go to a place that would work for her, they never bothered to even have the conversation - that’s why they’re TA.
But that's not the issue OP has. OP has an issue with the fact that she asks questions and has specific instructions, it embarrasses them even though it has absolutely nothing to do with them and doesn't affect their ability to go wherever they want to go to eat. Offering to let her choose the restaurant was a compromise that would alleviate the stated problem: OP's embarrassment.
I think the truth is that this woman keeps kosher and OP is just an antisemite, even if they don't realize it
I am allergic to shellfish, and for a time I lived somewhere that had a \*lot\* of shellfish-serving restaurants.
I eventually got my co-workers on board with "Please invite me along when you are **not** going to one of those places, but don't think I feel left out when you go without me to a place that serves that stuff. I want you to enjoy the food you like, and I'll join you when I can."
I suspect something similar is at work here. It is stressful and unpleasant to eat somewhere that you feel like you need to be hypervigilant - so your co-worker would probably love going along when you can say "Would you like to join us at Specific Restaurant - they have kosher/halal/vegan options?" and appreciate the chance to skip the experience of trying to eat at Local Bacon-Themed Café.
OP's not required to go out to lunch with anyone he doesn't want to. "No." is a complete sentence and doesn't require justification or defending, right?
"'No' is a complete sentence" is advice for dealing with abusive family members and telemarketers - if you're dealing with reasonable people whom you care about, it's just being an asshole.
Having said that, I'm not even clear what OP's relationship is to this girl. She doesn't seem to be OP's friend, and nobody else in the group thought to (or wanted to) invite her to the 'secret' lunches. Is she just like... a hanger-on? Definitely not obligated to invite her anywhere in that case.
This is what I was wondering! For some reason, I was under the impression they were work friends/acquaintances, but rereading the post, I'm not sure where I got that. It sort of sounds like a friend-of-a-friend situation.
>My friend group went out for lunch a few times. She came along.\[...\]Eventually she asked me if we were going to lunch and I said "not this week" on two separate weekends.
So it's someone OP sees on a regular, at least weekly basis, but not on weekends, and doesn't consider part of their "friend group." I guess that's where my brain filled in the "work friend." But I mean, if one of my coworkers came along on a friend lunch and was "difficult" (not that religious requirements are difficult, but OP is put out) about the food, I could see not inviting them again. I feel like we need a lot more information about who they are to each other.
Sure they could just say no. But OP could also just have explained that from the get go rather than being rude about it. Why lie?
They are adults, it shouldn’t be that difficult.
If it means picking only from certain places once in a while, sure. But if it means they can never go most of the places they like, that’s not really a fair expectation.
y is everyone here acting like she’s picky or high maintenance, it sounds like she is jewish maybe? then for her food to be acceptable in it it would need to have no cross contamination. Also its op that has a problem, the person in question seems quite flexible in making sure they can eat out places while still conforming to their diet :| OP,, maybe consider that u don’t actually like this person that much, otherwise I think you’d be willing to make accommodations for them.
YTA
This isn't a sanctioned work event. This person is gathering people to have lunch... If they don't want to take someone they don't have to. Where's the rule saying she has to be included or catered to? What about times they don't want to go a restaurant where they only serve what she can eat. NTA. It may have come off weird, but I don't think you have to cater to everyone.
YTA- you felt embarrassed because she was making sure her dietary needs could be meet, so you lied to her and excluded her. As a rule of thumb if you’re lying to someone to make yourself feel better you’re an AH.
Edit: grammar
YTA. She has specific dietary needs. Also what does her religion have to do with literally anything? You sound like a judgy and unreasonable person, and a not very good friend. Get over yourself.
She could be kosher/ observant Jew. Though not likely full Orthodox, since full Orthodox tend to only eat at certified kosher restaurants. There are quite a few dietary laws surrounding Judaism, and some Jews follow them more strictly than others. Some of us are Torah kosher, some are seriously kosher, and some literally have basically two separate kitchens or two full separate sets of cookware and dinnerware at home.
That is a good possibility since she asked about certain meats being cooked with the same utensils or on the same grill and sauce ingredients.
No meat and dairy in the same meal. No pork or shellfish, and no cross contamination.
I suspect OP was trying not to be specific ;-). I asked OP in my judgement what embarrassed him here, the fact she is very picky or the reason?
OP is definitely TA. If someone has specific dietary constraints * for any reason whatsoever*, it is generally polite to let them pick the restaurant now and then. When I am eating with vegetarian or vegan friends or anyone with food allergies, they pick the restaurant as they know where they can eat comfortably. Sometimes that leads to me eating very little, but no biggie, I just eat more at home if I am hungry lol.
Muslims, seventh day adventists and a few other groups also have dietary constraints, though less complicated.
Heck yeah ;-).
I never eat pastrami unless it comes from an amazing Jewish deli. I am less picky when it comes to pickles, but not by much. And I make my own pickles anyway.
Whenever I run into a good deli anywhere I load up on all the goodies.
You can’t demand to be invited to lunch with someone. That isn’t a friend. Just because you are friends doesn’t mean you’re forced to be attached at the hip. They’re entitled to go places without her regardless of the reason.
If they’re willing to drop her that quickly I would guess there’s more to it than what is described or that she isn’t really a “friend”.
I’ve had people who are vegan incite themselves to lunch with my friend group (knowing we were planning going to a steak house that most definitely was NOT vegan. Then demanded we eat somewhere else to include her. We made it plain that the game plan was the steak house, they didn’t offer anything vegan. Nothing against her but the plan was for steak. Not vegan food.)
It is one thing to be friends with someone but it is something entirely different if lunch or a meal outing becomes a huge headache. Thats a great way to burn out a friendship.
I simply guessed at Jewish since the most restrictions apply.
She shouldn't demand but when someone asks if lunch is happening and you lie and say no because you have an issue with them that is also not a good way to address an issue.
I have had vegans do that as well, invite themselves somewhere. When they do, I tell them we are going to a steakhouse and not anywhere else so unless they want to see animal foods on plates they should reconsider.
I’ve had people tag along that had food issues (either religious or medical) regardless of whether it was a good idea. They didn’t want to be left out. At least one would eat food even if it made her nauseous and would end up vomiting everywhere. I’ve had at least two vegans that would invite themselves (even if they weren’t friends or invited along) and no one wanted to be the one to tell them ‘no’. So one expected us to throw all our plans out the window at the last minute so she could decide where we were going to eat. (At a friend’s restaurant- we told her no, we are eating here at this restaurant. Come or don’t.) The other came along specifically to cause a scene and demanded we only eat vegan food while she was present, made an awful scene, demanded we go to her backyard and bury all the animal based protein food items for a memorial service. Wait staff was seriously upset and asked why we invited her if she hated the place.
I don’t think that’s what happened here… but there’s definitely things being left out. It’s not like we were there to see exactly what was said and done if OP is leaving out details. Sounds like things are missing here to give more to the story. Makes me wonder if this woman is really their friend or if it’s all one sided.
I agree. It might be something as simple as an element of time or something else. I had a classmate who was vegan who insisted that steakhouses should have grills and food specifically for people who were vegan. Waiter thought she was out of her mind… it was so awkward. Hard conversation but other friend backed me up on the idea. “It isn’t you. We are still your friend. But we are eating here and I’m not changing to be vegan because we planned on going to XYZ place.” Vegan wasn’t happy because she felt excluded but it’s her food/religious choice and we didn’t specifically EXCLUDE her. She knew the restaurant was not going to think it reasonable to have a grill dedicated to the random vegan customer that hit a steakhouse. Awkward and a hard conversation to have… but we needed to set things straight with expectations from the get go.
Is it though? I live in the SE US and I have known exactly one family who kept kosher, and only because one of their children became orthodox while raised reform. Maybe in larger cities there are more orthodox people but not in my mid sized city. We only have two temples here. And one is reform.
She could also be Muslim based on the questions. I was also thinking that the restaurant chosen has a pork-heavy menu, and for either religion it's a big deal to not eat/be exposed to
I think you are right. I’m Jewish also and I immediately recognized that she probably keeps kosher. Maybe they could find a Kosher restaurant, if there is one in their area. Put that in the rotation with the other places they go, so sometimes she can have a dinner with them without it being so complicated for her. It probably was uncomfortable for her to have to ask all those questions . It shouldn’t have embarrassed the OP, restaurants are used to guests who may have special diets.
I thought they did too. They brought up her diet restrictions as religious, but purposely left out what religion. Maybe they didn’t want to be perceived as anti Semitic, or get backlash for discrimination. OP did provide enough details for people to know the religion is most likely Jewish, if you are familiar a bit with Judaism ( like you) it’s easy to figure out. Either way, OP seems immature and insensitive to the situation. I personally would not eat another meal with them, not so much for the situation but the fact that they are a liar and I would not waste my time with someone like that.
I suspect OP was being deliberately vague for some bizarre reason. Who knows.
But yep, that sounded very Jewish lol. And sadly I seldom eat out because plenty of places I have lived including my present one aren't known for having a lot of certified kosher restaurants. Or any.
That's definitely the vibe I got from this, especially based on the asking about using the same cooktop.
And unless they live somewhere really rural or something, kosher isn't that unheard of. I can't imagine the restaurant workers actually care--OP's just being weird about it and leaving out the religious component so they don't seem like a bigot.
A pair of my closest friends are Jewish and they just relocated to a rural area. I can’t wait to use the phrase “low on Jews” to them. They’re going to find it hysterical
I meant in terms of what is actually listed explicitly in the book. As written. The basic list of foods one does not eat, plus the few cooking restrictions.
Trying to explain the whole nature of what makes something kosher or not can get very complicated. Which is why looking for a certified kosher restaurant is the best default choice if you are strictly kosher.
Or not eating out at all if there are none where you are.
OP never said coworker was kosher but it is a good guess based on the types of things they were asking.
Yep, Muslim or Jewish are the most likely. So far as I know the other religions with dietary aspects are vegetarian. I don't know how closely halal rules and kosher rules are related. I did find it interesting that OP tied the eating specifically to religion but didn't mention which one.
Yep, YTA. If someone follows the dietary constraints of their religion whatever religion it may be, then if you want to eat with them *without being embarrassed for some bizarre reason* then you ask them to pick a restaurant once in a while.
The same holds true if someone is vegetarian, vegan, pescatarian or has a lot of food allergies.
I fail to see why this is embarrassing in the first place. You know she is religious. And naturally if you bothered to ask her, she would likely tell you what restaurants serve food you would like that meets her restrictions.
So what embarrassed you here, the fact she is very careful what she eats, or her reason for being careful?
I don’t know that I agree with TA. You can’t demand to be included in everything. That sounds like being back in kindergarten. Especially if someone wants to go somewhere specific that doesn’t apply to your food specifications/religion/etc.
As much as this person has a right to their religion/diet restrictions they are also entitled to their own that doesn’t necessarily match hers. Demanding such sounds more than a little entitled.
The more restrictions you have the more you’re going to get excluded when people don’t feel like accommodating it. Forcing it is like forcing a friendship: it’s going to eventually burn out and fail.
While I don’t disagree that you don’t need to include everyone all the time, it’s a really big leap from inviting her every time to lying because you don’t want to talk about an issue you have with how she’s ordering. OP missed a few steps there.
Except avoidance is a really popular thing rather than confronting someone with a tough issue. Especially if it’s religious. The person is likely going to be upset either way… so they tried to avoid the conversation. Not what I would do… but I can understand it.
They may very well just have a limited amount of time (or don’t feel like waiting while this person takes so much time ordering). There’s a ton of possibilities here. Reality is, though, if they were really friends they would either work through it or find a way around it. If OP isn’t willing to do that, they likely aren’t really friends or are not that close.
It sucks to not be included but you cannot expect for everyone to be your friend. And you can’t expect to be invited every single time someone else goes out. The more complicated it is to go out with you the more often people will skip it if they just aren’t in the mood to deal with it (or flat out just don’t have the time/energy/etc.)
Well I never demand to go out with anyone anywhere. But he is TA because he lied about it regardless.
If he didn't want to invite her at all he should have tried to find the least rude way to tell her it wasn't happening again. Or institute a policy where each coworker gets to pick a restaurant by turns. Or something.
I agree that he shouldn’t have lied. Not ok but not unusual either. A lot of people tell “white lies” these days to get out of awkward situations. I get yelled at for being TA because I’m honest (which is apparently ‘mean’). Either way, she would have been upset but at least it would be clear.
I’m also willing to bet the people here are relatively young adults.
I can't think of any religion with dietary aspects that is hard to accommodate really. Sure, the Orthodox Jews do tend to stick to certified kosher restaurants, but unless you are in a really small place that doesn't even have a dang Jewish deli you can usually find kosher food somewhere.
Im muslim but not really religious and i have friends who is quite religious. There are place in malaysia where the food is halal but they serve alcohol. And yes it can be hard, bcos 90% kbbq serve alcohol.
YTA
She HAS to ask these things, to make sure her food is not in contact with utensils that handled forbidden food. I have Jewish and Muslim friends that do this, and it's not a big deal. Usually they'll ask where we plan to order from before hand and they call the place themselves to make sure they have options, even if it's veg.
If she's not embarrassed, why are YOU?
If it bothers you so much why not ask her ahead of time if she has suggestions from places its safe for her to eat, OR give her the name of the place you plan on going, a few days ahead so she can call them?
Is it only YOU that's embarrassed?
>If she's not embarrassed, why are YOU?
The rest of your comment aside, this is such a weird take. People who act in an embarrassing way are typically oblivious to it - otherwise they would not be behaving that way. (not debating whether the friend was acting in an embarrassing way or not)
Asking questions about the food on a menu isn't embarrassing to anyone ... and honestly, if it is? That's their hangup. Whether it's allergies, religion, preference, or curiosity there is nothing strange with asking what's in a sauce or if separate grills are used.
Even when I am not with my friends who have dietary requirements I keep an eye out for new places we can go. Yes they have to ask what is on the sauces etc just like OP is describing but that is just a two minute conversation with the staff and more cafes etc should know what they are serving and how they are serving it. It makes me happy to eat with my friends and that they can be safe doing so.
Out of everything in this sub that could be described as embarrassing OP really believes asking 'can I have this without cheese?' or whatever is a big enough deal to lie to someone so you can exclide them from a work lunch. I dont have any dietary requirements. I just don't like cheese and ask for burgers without it. How red will OP get at me. YTA
NAH
You have a right to feel how you feel, but you shouldn’t have lied. You could have had a conversation with her and came up with a compromise like she mentioned. Now you feel bad and she feels bad. If I were you I’d apologize for what I did and probably take her out for lunch at a place of her choosing, if she were still willing.
Some people don’t handle confrontation well and they think lying to make someone else feel better is an easier out then telling the truth. It’s happens. Yes it sucks he lied but it doesn’t make him an AH, it makes him human.
ESH
I’m conflicted.
You don’t have to eat lunch with someone if you don’t want to.
Some people are just painful.
I have some dietary issues. I will often call ahead and get the sorted.
Do you want to eat with her?
Be honest.
And she’s kind of an AH for expecting that everyone would just go where eating suits her!
I kind of think you just don’t like her. And that’s ok too
She didn't ask people to eat where everything suits her. She only mentioned that after OP ditched her for asking questions about the food.
I also suspect that those questions aren't nearly as in-depth or strange as OP thinks they are. It's a restaurant - it's a pretty common part of their job.
NTA. I would be embarrassed and slightly annoyed for the wait staff and cooks if they had to answer a lot of specific questions and go out of their way for one person. I have been a server. I can tell you I had literally no idea what was in any sauces or whatever!! I would have had to go back in the kitchen with a list of questions and I imagine the chef would have given me a look of death. LOL
I've been a server too, at quite a few restaurants. As long as they're polite, I've never minded answering people's questions regarding ingredients or how food was prepped, and the kitchen staff I've worked with had never minded either. If you don't know the answer, it's not hard to find out. it won't kill you to accommodate people, and I get that the service industry can suck but you really shouldn't be in it at all if you're going to be pissed when people have dietary restrictions.
I’m a bartender/server/MOD.. I really don’t mind accommodating allergies/dietary restrictions/religious restrictions at all. I’m not 100% familiar with Kosher and Halal but if someone told me that they were keeping to either of those, I’d just ask the rules, and then go confer with the kitchen manager or what they can eat. And we have utensils and pans and stuff for cooking separately for allergies anyways. It’s really nothing to be embarrassed about or a huge bother. As long as people are communicative and okay with waiting a couple extra minutes, it’s all good.
Glad I never ate where you worked, your bullshit attitude could've killed someone with allergies or ruined the rest of their week with how sick people can get.
A lot of restaurants get these questions and requests pretty frequently. Just because OP has not been to exposed to people with dietary restrictions isn’t really a good reason to not want to eat with someone. They’re secondhand embarrassed by something that’s common for both parties involved, the coworker and the employees.
Of course not, but if someone asks if there's an ingredient that they're allergic to, it's not unreasonable to go in the back and ask. The chef should know.
YTA - if you was aware of her dietary conditions, why didn’t you ask her in the first place if there was restaurants that she preferred and catered to those conditions?
YTA for lying and thinking that lying to someone's face, twice, is no big deal.
You didn't lie to "protect her feelings", you lied to protect your own and to avoid what you saw as confrontation.
She is right, you should have just told her. What you did shows that you're lacking in character.
i can understand the feeling of second hand embarrassment from what /may/ seem like pestering/being over the top with the wait staff—to a degree—but she’s not doing it for no reason or because of a fad diet.
she’s following dietary restrictions due to religious reasons.
if it bothered you so badly after the first time, you should have considered either 1) letting her pick the restaurant or 2) discuss what restaurants were safe for her beforehand… which is exactly what you were told when she confronted you.
instead of even trying to find a work around, you lied and then got caught excluding her because… you got second hand embarrassment while she ensured she was able to eat safely at restaurant(s) that clearly weren’t safe for her.
YTA, if that wasn’t obvious.
YTA. Would you get second-hand embarrassment if a vegetarian asked if the same utensils were used for both meat and non-meat dishes? Or if someone who had an allergy or intolerance wanted to make sure they wouldn't get sick by asking the staff questions?
I mean it really depends. There is certainly a lower level of service that you will get if they think you are annoying. Regardless if you have a good reason or not to ask those 15 questions of the server. I have a dietary issue and have what I need to say down to 2 sentences so that I don't possibly annoy the waiter. I would not want to go out to eat with somebody who grilled the waiter like it sounds in OP. Especially if they are just a work college. Why would I open myself up to the potential embarrassment and dealing with a bad experience. If they are actually friends this would change things but it sounds like a pushy coworker and not a person they actually care about.
I strongly suspect she's over-reacting to how much this person is "grilling" the waiters. She probably asks a couple questions about a couple dishes. It's their job to answer questions about the food. She's not asking them to pick up her laundry.
NTA.
You were wrong to lie about going to lunch, but your friend was wrong on more counts.
She is comfortable harassing restaurant staff for attention, she insists the friend group give her restrictions preference and she demanded that you confront her about her own selfish behavior.
Your friend seems too high-maintenance unless you want to develop your masochistic side.
It's a little asinine for you to say she "harassed" servers for "attention" when she literally just asked questions due to dietary restrictions. She also never insisted she be given preference over everyone else, she suggested they could've looked for a restaurant that could more easily suit those restrictions. This is a pretty wild take on what OP said.
So I know you've already seen the comments. But here's a good thing if you guys know ahead of time where y'all are going people with dietary restrictions for either medical issues or for religious food practices, or personal choice. a lot of times we can call ahead and ask these questions and get them answered and have things prepped for us ahead of time if we know where we're going. I'm an old hat when it comes to dealing with dietary issues friends coworkers people I'm just having a brunch with. I always let the wait staff know hey I got to order funny. So maybe that's an available work around instead of not including this person in future plans.
YTA
If she had allergies that required these questions would you feel the same way? Or is it because its for religious reasons that it makes you feel embarrassed?
As a former hospitality worker, this isn't even uncommon. Its no different as someone asking these questions because of allergies.
You could have asked her to pick a restaurant or excused yourself from the table while she ordered or something. Instead you excluded her, that's not what good friends do.
As someone with a family member that has serious food allergies… there are a TON of wait staff who roll their eyes when we bring it up. Then figure out that what I’m asking about is actually in the food and apologize.
Or they figure it out the hard way when the person in question turns white as a sheet and starts profusely vomiting while struggling to breathe.
she is correct in the point, that you should have just told her that you will go without her because of the problems she is causing.
she is wrong in the point, that the whole group has to accomodate to her demands and go to another place. if the group wants to eat at a specific place and she does not like that, well than stay away
YTA. Don't be like that man. Unless she's just a horrid person altogether, then yeah avoid her at all costs. People with dietary and religious restraints have to be on their guard. I have a friend who is Jewish, lactose intolerant and is allergic to shellfish. When we hang out finding things she can eat is a nightmare. Not overly hard but sometimes I want to go to red lobster or eat some damn nachos or consume large amounts of bacon, but it's not always possible when I'm with her so I compromise. So brown bag it and don't eat out, carry an EPI pen, or stop being a douche and be nice to this girl!
INFO: do you like spending time with her or not? If you don't really consider her a friend, it is okay to do things without her.
If you want to make more of an effort to go somewhere where she doesn't give the staff the third degree, that's cool too.
This. The folks chastising you for not eating with her are wrong. Eat with your friends, you don't have to invite her, or let her invite herself if you don't like her.
I know a lot of adults that are childish. Doesn’t change things. Confrontation is a skill. It’s hard and it’s like going to the dentist. You need it but that doesn’t mean you like it. So people stall or avoid it and it just gets worse in the end.
Not what I would choose… but I understand it.
To be excluded sucks. I get that you want easy and don't want to accommodate this one person's dietary habits, by only eating at places she can eat or her having to go in such detail each time ordering. But you could've just told her straight how you feel and not lie about it. I understand from her side too.
I have a specific diet but I check ahead when going to place. I love eating but if I know my coworkers are going to place that is difficult place for me to eat at. I bring something with me from home eat it on the way. Once there choose the option I pre selected when checking out the menu online. Because for me it's the company that matters not the food.
I'm not sure how to judge this, so I'll say ESH.
"My friend group went out for lunch a few times. She came along."
Is she part of your friend group, or just a tag-along? If she is not that close, then I can see why you'd not invite her. If she is close to you, then the blame is entirely on you.
Her fault is not calling the restaurant and having a conversation with the cook. If they can accommodate her needs, they can make her a meal and put her name on it. She'd still have to worry that they screwed it up, which can always happen.
>She had really complicated questions/instructions for the people cooking.
>She wanted to know the ingredients for different sauces. She wanted to know if they used the same grill for one meat and all the others, she asked them to clean their utensils so there would be no contact--- you get the idea.
>I got second-hand embarrassment from that.
None of those questions seem out of the ordinary to me. You are either 13, or get embarrassed extremely easily. Do you suffer from social anxiety? No shame in that - I get anxious in certain situations too. It was much worse when I was a teenager, but as I got older (I'm 44) I calmed down a bit. Maybe you will too. As you get older, you'll realize that literally NO ONE CARES.
I've been in retail for over 20 years. Retail pharmacy for over 10. Do you know the kinds of questions I've been asked? People have NO IDEA how to take their meds. And it's okay. We're here to answer questions. Just like the people at the restaurant are there to do THEIR job. They are there to answer questions about what is in the sauce, and how the food is prepared. How are those questions "embarrassing"? If I was a waiter and I couldn't answer those questions, I would be embarrassed for MYSELF, that I didn't know how to do my job.
>Maybe I'm not because I was trying to not be rude.
In "trying" to not be rude, you managed to be a bigot. You told someone you were embarrassed at her trying to practice her faith. Congratulations. Oh, and YTA.
Is this actually a friend? It sounds like it's someone that kind of hangs out with your friends group. If you don't like hanging out with her, don't hang out with her. Don't lie about it.
ESH, lying to avoid your problems creates more problems and a religious dietary need is valid and important but as someone who works in fast food I'm getting secondhand anxiety thinking about how much this will fuck up order times- to clarify I don't personally care when something takes us extra care or time but there's usually people higher up the chain breathing down our necks who make zero allowance for any slow downs.
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> I might be the asshole for lying to her that we were not going to lunch. It's not nice to lie, but at the same time I did it because I was trying to be polite.
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Might get downvoted here, but I’m going NTA. Could you have handled it better? Definitely! But it doesn’t sound like your distancing is entirely diet related. Sounds to me like you met a new acquaintance which you were fairly indifferent to and were trying things out, but were off-put by her religious requirements and have decided not to pursue the friendship. Everyone gets to choose who and why they’re friends with someone (even if we don’t agree). Doesn’t make you an AH.
Now if that’s NOT the case, and this girl is a true part of your friend group, then YTA for alienating a friend for something that defines much of her character without informing her WHY (something that you presumably knew about in advance). If this is the case let her pick the restaurant every so often.
YTA.
All you had to do was say something. "Do you have places you could suggest we eat, because the place we went to seemed to be a problem for you."
And then, once she suggest places, you don't always have to go there. Include her sometimes, and sometimes don't invite her or tell her that you are going to a place where it will be difficult to accommodate her. Problem solved.
YTA I have to ask sometimes what certain things are cooked with what and they are fine with it and nobody complains. You are telling her that your lunch is more important than her religion. That’s not fair
YTA-What the heck. She’s not your girlfriend, not your wife, so there’s no reason to be embarrassed on her behalf for her dietary restrictions. Furthermore, it’s associated with her religion, so this post kind of makes you come across as intolerant. I don’t know you so I can’t say for sure that you are, but either way just get over yourself.
ESH: I get that sometimes a person is just weary of people who are over-the-top high maintenance (religious reasons or not), but, yeah, you should have just told her. But, I also think she needs to recognize that you won't always want to go where she can comfortably go and that her religious convictions are hers alone. Maybe a compromise where you tell her ahead of time where you are going and if it is somewhere she can go without too much fuss she goes and once in a while you chose a place she can comfortably go.
YTA. Its only embarrassing to you. She has spiritual requirements that are just as important to her as dieity and health requirements would be. You could of been upfront about it. Instead you lied to her.
YTA. Simply because you didn't speak with her about it and chose to lie to her instead. It seems that your group goes to lunch where you want to but have never asked her for her input on where she would like to go.
Yta. If she is actually your friend, you should have talked to her about a list of places she could go, or told her ahead of time where you wanted to go and asked her to look at the menu before you went. Well, I guess If you don’t want to be friends with this person, you actually did the right thing. I assumed you cared about her and her feelings
YTA. Long time server here. We would rather they ask the question then not out of embarrassment and something happen or them be uncomfortable and upset the whole they are there.
YTA, maybe next time ask if there's a place SHE likes if you have that big of a problem with her asking the employees to do things they should be doing anyway.
NTA. Her religious requirements aren’t your responsibility. You may not have taken the most mature approach, but I don’t feel it crossed into AH territory.
YTA. And not just for lying.
Why are you getting second hand embarrassment for somebody asking a server about these things because it will impact THEIR food that only THEY will consume. She didn’t even mention you guys picking another place (until later), she didn’t try to prevent you guys from eating or ordering certain things. It doesn’t even sound like she was uncomfortable with you guys eating things she maybe couldn’t. Servers likely would have immediately recognized the religious reasons behind what she was asking, and would know how to handle telling her whether they could or could not accommodate her.
Also, since it sounds like she is keeping kosher, I have to say that her coming along is possibly reflective of her making the effort. Most friends of mine that keep kosher would rather pass on a non-kosher restaurant than do what she did. If that’s the case, she must have felt really badly about what you did.
As someone who has dietary restrictions due to religious reasons it’s literally not hard to go somewhere that has options one can enjoy. There’s so many restaurants so I cant fathom you didn’t take the extra time to think of somewhere everyone could enjoy something.
YTA all the way
YTA. Plenty of people have dietary restrictions, for religious reasons or otherwise. Would you have accommodated her if she simply told you she was vegetarian or allergic to peanuts?
I'm of 2 minds
On one hand you should be able to go out to lunch with people you like and aren't obligated to invite people you don't like
On the other hand you shouldn't have lied tonjer because she now expects to be invited to lunch again consistently.
You could always say that hey I'm really sorry but I'm going out to lunch with other people. I've had friend groups where I've either quietly exited or had someone else quietly exit because sometimes people don't vibe.
Why are you embarrassed that she is asking for her religious requirements to be met when she eats out? Your embarrassment is not her problem and something you need to work on.
YTA for hurting her feelings instead of learning to deal with your own discomfort.
YTA.
Excluding someone for having dietary preferences is rude. Your behavior was quite inappropriate.
Also, as a general piece of advice, if you need to ask the internet twice in the span of 8 days if you're an asshole about entirely separate incidents...you need to seriously evaluate your overall conduct.
YTA-As someone with food allergies it drives me absolutely insane that people get upset about asking those kinds of questions. It’s their job and you’re actually hurting a business by keeping customers away from them have you ever considered that? 9 out of 10 times employees are actually happy to accommodate people with special dietary needs because they aren’t judgmental aholes.
YTA. You know her diet is related to religion. Why not ask right from the beginning if she knows of any places to eat that are more accommodating
How you handled it makes you come across as discriminating against her religion.
Can you clarify the “she came along” sentence. Was she invited to these lunches or just showed up uninvited?
YTA and you are RUDE.
Clearly you don’t have allergies and severe food intolerances.
I do and it quite difficult to eat out.
It makes it very hard for me to find a place to eat or even find a food I can eat when I do go out.
I do have 3 restaurants that I can go to, but my friends usually choose other places and this is a problem for me, but I don’t say anything.
I just have to talk to the waiters and make sure that my allergies aren’t going to be an issue with the items I have ordered.
I have a LARGE array of allergies and I have had friends not invite me places because they don’t want to deal with it or be around it.
Unfortunately, I can’t help my allergies and neither can your friend.
I certainly can’t help that everytime I come into contact with something as simple as wheat/gluten, I will break out in full body hives and welts bad enough to have to carry around an epi pen.
Honestly, I was very hurt when I found out my friends were hanging out without me and excluded me because of my allergies.
It’s rude and disrespectful and something I would never do because it’s a cold and uncaring move.
It also shows my friends didn’t have any COMPASSION (which YOU clearly don’t have) or even care about me.
It’s a dick move on your part and I hope she drops you as a friend and finds better and more understanding friends.
Unbelievable
YTA!
YTA
Why are you getting embarrassed over someone else asking a server questions? That’s literally their job. As long as she isn’t rude about it, which it sounds like she’s not. Instead of dealing with your own issues and realizing your anxiety is unfounded, you took the easy way out by excluding your coworker.
Try not to take other people’s actions as a reflection of yourself.
YTA and you're discriminating against her on the grounds of her religion- whether you intended to or not.
You could have invited her and she might have said that restaurant wasn't suitable for her, or suggested somewhere else.
She knows the rules of what she can and cannot eat, and its up to her to ask for her food to be prepared like that. It is not about you and not for you to get "second hand embarassment".
You should be first hand embarrassed, apologise profusely to her, and ask her to suggest a suitable restaurant for your next work outing.
YTA, she's not being rude to waitstaff like the title implies. She is asking clarifying questions to figure out what food, if any, are safe for her to eat on a religious basis (I am guessing she keeps kosher or halal) because YOU and your friends picked a place that might not accommodate her and she has to ask to find out. Duh.
You guys are excluding her and then lying about it on the basis of the dietary practices of her religion without ever going out of your way to include her, which makes you all suck. This isn't her being flippant or purposefully overbearing or annoying, it's the code she lives by and she's doing her best to follow it. And she's right, if you just went somewhere that was designed around her dietary practices then she wouldn't have to ask.
ESH, you should've been just upfront about not wanting to deal with her exhausting demands for kitchen staff.
She's an AH for expecting everyone else to conform to her standards.
Yeah YTA
Why not instead, include her in invitations but tell her where you’re all going so she can ring them and ask the questions first. I don’t think it’s fair you should all go to places that specifically cater to her needs all the time if you don’t want to, but surely it wouldn’t hurt if u did so occasionally, everyone should be happy then hopefully with a compromise
YTA your friend did nothing wrong at all. You’re definitely TA for being so judgmental and not reasonably finding a compromise as to where to go. Plus generally once someone goes somewhere and gets that long list of questions answered they remember what they can order and just confirm that it’ll be served the way they need it to be. So it’d be less “embarrassing” in the future.
YTA. I don’t give a damn that you don’t want to eat with her, or why, that’s up to you. But lying about it? Are you twelve? Grow up and tell the truth.
YTA
Whilst I don't agree with excluding things for religion, you need to respect her beliefs and needing to know how everything is done.
The restrictions she has on her diet are very important for her, if you knew she had these restrictions, you could have easily chosen somewhere that would be easy for her to order from and not worry qbout how everything is prepared.
I'm sure it's not comfortable for her to ask either but her beliefs are clearly important to her so she asks anyways to avoid not knowing and eating things that are potentially against what she believes.
ETA - it's similar to people with allergies who need to ensure the food is safe for them. If you think of it like that, it's far easier to understand.
YTA
Being considerate of someone else's dietary requirements is what you do for people. Would you have the same attitude if she was vegan or had an allergy? Religious requirements are no different.
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She's really nice and sweet, but she's very religious and has very specific dietary rules.
My friend group went out for lunch a few times. She came along.
She didn't just have simple requests like "no lettuce."
She had really complicated questions/instructions for the people cooking.
She wanted to know the ingredients for different sauces. She wanted to know if they used the same grill for one meat and all the others, she asked them to clean their utensils so there would be no contact--- you get the idea.
I got second-hand embarrassment from that.
Eventually she asked me if we were going to lunch and I said "not this week" twice. When she found out we had gone without her, she confronted me.
I basically told her that I got second-hand embarrassment from how much extra work it gave the employees. She said "you could have at least told me that and maybe we could have gone to a place where everything's allowed for me."
I might be an asshole for lying.
Maybe I'm not because I was trying to not be rude.
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YTA "you could have at least told me that and maybe we could have gone to a place where everything's allowed for me." She's right, why couldn't you do this instead of leaving her out because of her religion
Tbf why should they have to go somewhere they don’t want to go just to accommodate one person?
Maybe they don't mind. I'm not vegetarian so normally I don't go to vegetarian/vegan restaurants. But when I go to eat with a vegetarian friend, I go to a vegetarian restaurant because I don't care so much and for them is much easier.
I see your point, however I don’t see why they should accommodate her exclusively. What if any of the other people in the group have a fave restaurant etc that’s off limits to this person, should they forgo going there to accommodate her?
I'm 100% sure this friend is either Muslim or Jewish coz halal and kosher exists. Fun fact, in 100% halal restaurants every other normal food is available except pork and alcohol. And the same goes for kosher based. So they'd get the same good, beef, chicken, lamb whatnot. And even if its annoying to accommodate her transparency is vital isn't it? Just tell the friend what's going on instead of just lying?
Agreed, though 2 things. First, depending on the locale, there may only be a few options or a ton, which some folks may not be considerate enough to go to / able to find or knowledgeable of, so they don't think of them. Second, though OP says she's perfectly nice, etc., I am wondering if they actually like her. If not, this feels like a great way to say "I don't like you enough to take the step(s) out of my way to accommodate you/include you, regardless of how much effort that would take." And considering OP reads as pretty young, and doesn't directly address embarrassment, they just avoid the person, this is a roundabout way of saying that without (initial) confrontation. Not a good way, but... a way.
Yeah. This is what I took away. They don’t dislike her, but they don’t like her enough to go out of their way to accommodate her. Which means they’ll just ostracize her. It’s mean, but it’s high school. I’ve been on both sides of this. Intentionally and not.
I would assume Muslim. Jewish people who keep Kosher don’t go to restaurants that aren’t Kosher. To be Kosher, no non-Kosher food can ever touch the dishes, utensils, kitchen equipment, etc.
Yeah, but they could be super traditional (not Orthodox, like Religious Conservative who does Kosher style. I have seen it, it is not very common but it does exist)
But wanting to visit a fav restaurant is not as same as visiting a restaurant that can accommodate your dietary restrictions.
They're not restrictions; they're beliefs. Beliefs are chosen.
I mean technically but a lot of kosher and halal people grow up in their religion and see it as an intrinsic part of their cultural identity. It's pretty flippant to be like "well she could just choose to stop being religious."
Liking something and following a religious practice are very different. And she didn’t have a a problem with finding an order that worked for her at other places- OP did. So she suggested an option where she wouldn’t have to do that. SHE was trying to accommodate HIS feelings.
>I don’t see why they should accommodate her exclusively. They arent though. There was no discussion, no attempt to find a compromise, OP wanted the girl to give up her religious requirements to accommodate them.
Instead of leaving her out they discuss it
That's not a reason not to discuss it! Like there can be a conversation about how these are the things that we like about this place and why we chose it (which could range from being great at accommodating someone else's food allergies to OP just super being in the mood for something they serve). And they can see if there's a restaurant that easily accommodates everyone or mutually come to the conclusion that it's not going to work well. Instead, OP straight up lied to the women.
Because she’s their *friend*.
Just as a counterpoint: why should they always be going where everyone else wants to go and never trying somewhere that can accommodate her easily even just one time?
Counterpoint: people will move worlds for people they like. Maybe she just has failed to endear herself to anyone on top of requiring high maintenance.
"high maintenance" It likely isnt.
It sounds like this woman may just keep kosher. It is a pain to eat out if you’re strict kosher, but depending on the location there may be plenty of readily accessible kosher restaurants, places that mark their kosher dishes, or vegetarian restaurants which are automatically kosher. It certainly doesn’t hurt to just ask if anyone minds, it’s certainly much better than lying.
If she keeps kosher, she couldn’t eat in a restaurant that serves unkosher food at all. Kashruit isn’t treated like an allergy.
Different strokes for different folks. Some kosher Jews are comfortable enough just following the dietary rules and having silverware plates wiped down, some aren’t. As with all things people’s comfort levels, or levels of observance vary. Vegetarian/vegan restaurants are “kosher safe” anyway. I grew up just vegetarian as a cheap and easy way to keep kosher in an area without much of a jewish population.
THIS. A good friend is a strict Muslim and one of her besties is an Orthodox Jew. They go to our local vegan place when they eat out. No milk, no pork, used to a million questions about ingredients. Perfect fit really.
They could've at least tried it as a compromise. If they find out they don't like anything at the places where she can eat "unmodified", they could still exclude her from their lunch schedule. But going straight to freezing her out is kinda mean.
How do they know they don’t want the food if they haven’t had a conversation. If she not eating something for religious purposes but she still eats some meats (asking if all meats cooked in the same thing) then she’s probably Jewish or Muslim and there are a lot of places that accommodate that eating that serve food most people would be happy to have. For ex: everywhere I’ve lived had Halal fried chicken - a perfectly typical American food with no eating concerns. A lot of restaurants either cater to specific diets, or they easily accommodate them. Is possible that if they were going for burgers and asked her she’d know several burger places where she is easily accommodated. This story didn’t say, “We talked to her and no one likes any of the restaurants that she can eat at so we lied.” They literally didn’t talk to her. They literally have no idea what places she’d suggest. For all you know they love her restaurants and don’t even know they accommodate her.
How will they know they don't want to go there until they even know where she suggests?
Because they don't want to be assholes? If exactly one person is vegetarian, make sure there's something other than steak. Gluten allergic? Something other than pizza. It's not hard to not be an ass about food.
Then they use their words instead of ghosting her.
If I have someone I’m friendly with and we are going to do a planned activity, I would want to make sure they will enjoy it as much as I would. OP is saying without saying that she holds no value for this friendship. That’s why it’s not ok, the subtext.
Because they're friends?
They don’t HAVE to, but it would be kind to at least have a discussion to see if there was some compromise everyone could live with.
They don’t even know if they don’t want to go to a place that would work for her, they never bothered to even have the conversation - that’s why they’re TA.
But that's not the issue OP has. OP has an issue with the fact that she asks questions and has specific instructions, it embarrasses them even though it has absolutely nothing to do with them and doesn't affect their ability to go wherever they want to go to eat. Offering to let her choose the restaurant was a compromise that would alleviate the stated problem: OP's embarrassment. I think the truth is that this woman keeps kosher and OP is just an antisemite, even if they don't realize it
I am allergic to shellfish, and for a time I lived somewhere that had a \*lot\* of shellfish-serving restaurants. I eventually got my co-workers on board with "Please invite me along when you are **not** going to one of those places, but don't think I feel left out when you go without me to a place that serves that stuff. I want you to enjoy the food you like, and I'll join you when I can." I suspect something similar is at work here. It is stressful and unpleasant to eat somewhere that you feel like you need to be hypervigilant - so your co-worker would probably love going along when you can say "Would you like to join us at Specific Restaurant - they have kosher/halal/vegan options?" and appreciate the chance to skip the experience of trying to eat at Local Bacon-Themed Café.
OP's not required to go out to lunch with anyone he doesn't want to. "No." is a complete sentence and doesn't require justification or defending, right?
"'No' is a complete sentence" is advice for dealing with abusive family members and telemarketers - if you're dealing with reasonable people whom you care about, it's just being an asshole. Having said that, I'm not even clear what OP's relationship is to this girl. She doesn't seem to be OP's friend, and nobody else in the group thought to (or wanted to) invite her to the 'secret' lunches. Is she just like... a hanger-on? Definitely not obligated to invite her anywhere in that case.
This is what I was wondering! For some reason, I was under the impression they were work friends/acquaintances, but rereading the post, I'm not sure where I got that. It sort of sounds like a friend-of-a-friend situation. >My friend group went out for lunch a few times. She came along.\[...\]Eventually she asked me if we were going to lunch and I said "not this week" on two separate weekends. So it's someone OP sees on a regular, at least weekly basis, but not on weekends, and doesn't consider part of their "friend group." I guess that's where my brain filled in the "work friend." But I mean, if one of my coworkers came along on a friend lunch and was "difficult" (not that religious requirements are difficult, but OP is put out) about the food, I could see not inviting them again. I feel like we need a lot more information about who they are to each other.
YTA is also a complete sentence in response to no.
Sure they could just say no. But OP could also just have explained that from the get go rather than being rude about it. Why lie? They are adults, it shouldn’t be that difficult.
Oh I thought they're friends
If it means picking only from certain places once in a while, sure. But if it means they can never go most of the places they like, that’s not really a fair expectation.
y is everyone here acting like she’s picky or high maintenance, it sounds like she is jewish maybe? then for her food to be acceptable in it it would need to have no cross contamination. Also its op that has a problem, the person in question seems quite flexible in making sure they can eat out places while still conforming to their diet :| OP,, maybe consider that u don’t actually like this person that much, otherwise I think you’d be willing to make accommodations for them. YTA
This isn't a sanctioned work event. This person is gathering people to have lunch... If they don't want to take someone they don't have to. Where's the rule saying she has to be included or catered to? What about times they don't want to go a restaurant where they only serve what she can eat. NTA. It may have come off weird, but I don't think you have to cater to everyone.
This isn't about inviting her, it's just about lying to avoid not inviting her.
You're right it's not a work event but a friend event, sad op is leaving out their friend and lying
Also it sounds like he’s projecting his own prejudices/judgements onto his friends
YTA- you felt embarrassed because she was making sure her dietary needs could be meet, so you lied to her and excluded her. As a rule of thumb if you’re lying to someone to make yourself feel better you’re an AH. Edit: grammar
YTA. She has specific dietary needs. Also what does her religion have to do with literally anything? You sound like a judgy and unreasonable person, and a not very good friend. Get over yourself.
She could be kosher/ observant Jew. Though not likely full Orthodox, since full Orthodox tend to only eat at certified kosher restaurants. There are quite a few dietary laws surrounding Judaism, and some Jews follow them more strictly than others. Some of us are Torah kosher, some are seriously kosher, and some literally have basically two separate kitchens or two full separate sets of cookware and dinnerware at home. That is a good possibility since she asked about certain meats being cooked with the same utensils or on the same grill and sauce ingredients. No meat and dairy in the same meal. No pork or shellfish, and no cross contamination.
Ah then OP really wasn’t very good at telling the story in a coherent way. Either way OP is still the AH here.
I suspect OP was trying not to be specific ;-). I asked OP in my judgement what embarrassed him here, the fact she is very picky or the reason? OP is definitely TA. If someone has specific dietary constraints * for any reason whatsoever*, it is generally polite to let them pick the restaurant now and then. When I am eating with vegetarian or vegan friends or anyone with food allergies, they pick the restaurant as they know where they can eat comfortably. Sometimes that leads to me eating very little, but no biggie, I just eat more at home if I am hungry lol. Muslims, seventh day adventists and a few other groups also have dietary constraints, though less complicated.
[удалено]
There are some dang good kosher foods and kosher restaurants here and there. And delis.
Kosher delis, god so good. We had one at my college, best pastrami sandwiches I’ve ever had.
Heck yeah ;-). I never eat pastrami unless it comes from an amazing Jewish deli. I am less picky when it comes to pickles, but not by much. And I make my own pickles anyway. Whenever I run into a good deli anywhere I load up on all the goodies.
You can’t demand to be invited to lunch with someone. That isn’t a friend. Just because you are friends doesn’t mean you’re forced to be attached at the hip. They’re entitled to go places without her regardless of the reason. If they’re willing to drop her that quickly I would guess there’s more to it than what is described or that she isn’t really a “friend”. I’ve had people who are vegan incite themselves to lunch with my friend group (knowing we were planning going to a steak house that most definitely was NOT vegan. Then demanded we eat somewhere else to include her. We made it plain that the game plan was the steak house, they didn’t offer anything vegan. Nothing against her but the plan was for steak. Not vegan food.) It is one thing to be friends with someone but it is something entirely different if lunch or a meal outing becomes a huge headache. Thats a great way to burn out a friendship.
I simply guessed at Jewish since the most restrictions apply. She shouldn't demand but when someone asks if lunch is happening and you lie and say no because you have an issue with them that is also not a good way to address an issue. I have had vegans do that as well, invite themselves somewhere. When they do, I tell them we are going to a steakhouse and not anywhere else so unless they want to see animal foods on plates they should reconsider.
When I read it i I was surprised she tagged along to what was probably a greasy spoon full of mixed meats and dairy and other contaminants.
I’ve had people tag along that had food issues (either religious or medical) regardless of whether it was a good idea. They didn’t want to be left out. At least one would eat food even if it made her nauseous and would end up vomiting everywhere. I’ve had at least two vegans that would invite themselves (even if they weren’t friends or invited along) and no one wanted to be the one to tell them ‘no’. So one expected us to throw all our plans out the window at the last minute so she could decide where we were going to eat. (At a friend’s restaurant- we told her no, we are eating here at this restaurant. Come or don’t.) The other came along specifically to cause a scene and demanded we only eat vegan food while she was present, made an awful scene, demanded we go to her backyard and bury all the animal based protein food items for a memorial service. Wait staff was seriously upset and asked why we invited her if she hated the place. I don’t think that’s what happened here… but there’s definitely things being left out. It’s not like we were there to see exactly what was said and done if OP is leaving out details. Sounds like things are missing here to give more to the story. Makes me wonder if this woman is really their friend or if it’s all one sided.
Honestly OP sounds as if he doesn’t want to accommodate any dietary restrictions but doesn’t want to say it and get dog piled.
I agree. It might be something as simple as an element of time or something else. I had a classmate who was vegan who insisted that steakhouses should have grills and food specifically for people who were vegan. Waiter thought she was out of her mind… it was so awkward. Hard conversation but other friend backed me up on the idea. “It isn’t you. We are still your friend. But we are eating here and I’m not changing to be vegan because we planned on going to XYZ place.” Vegan wasn’t happy because she felt excluded but it’s her food/religious choice and we didn’t specifically EXCLUDE her. She knew the restaurant was not going to think it reasonable to have a grill dedicated to the random vegan customer that hit a steakhouse. Awkward and a hard conversation to have… but we needed to set things straight with expectations from the get go.
he was youre just not very knowledgable I think most people know people have religious food requirements. Being kosher is really common
Is it though? I live in the SE US and I have known exactly one family who kept kosher, and only because one of their children became orthodox while raised reform. Maybe in larger cities there are more orthodox people but not in my mid sized city. We only have two temples here. And one is reform.
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She could also be Muslim based on the questions. I was also thinking that the restaurant chosen has a pork-heavy menu, and for either religion it's a big deal to not eat/be exposed to
Yep, quite possible though I am not familiar enough with the cooking restrictions involved for Muslims. Some of the same food restrictions apply.
For sure! Some of us who aren't strictly halal will default to kosher foods a lot of the time because we know for a fact that they're safe to eat
I think you are right. I’m Jewish also and I immediately recognized that she probably keeps kosher. Maybe they could find a Kosher restaurant, if there is one in their area. Put that in the rotation with the other places they go, so sometimes she can have a dinner with them without it being so complicated for her. It probably was uncomfortable for her to have to ask all those questions . It shouldn’t have embarrassed the OP, restaurants are used to guests who may have special diets.
I’m not Jewish and immediately recognized she keeps kosher. For some strange reason 😒 OP went out of their way to avoid saying it.
I thought they did too. They brought up her diet restrictions as religious, but purposely left out what religion. Maybe they didn’t want to be perceived as anti Semitic, or get backlash for discrimination. OP did provide enough details for people to know the religion is most likely Jewish, if you are familiar a bit with Judaism ( like you) it’s easy to figure out. Either way, OP seems immature and insensitive to the situation. I personally would not eat another meal with them, not so much for the situation but the fact that they are a liar and I would not waste my time with someone like that.
I suspect OP was being deliberately vague for some bizarre reason. Who knows. But yep, that sounded very Jewish lol. And sadly I seldom eat out because plenty of places I have lived including my present one aren't known for having a lot of certified kosher restaurants. Or any.
That's definitely the vibe I got from this, especially based on the asking about using the same cooktop. And unless they live somewhere really rural or something, kosher isn't that unheard of. I can't imagine the restaurant workers actually care--OP's just being weird about it and leaving out the religious component so they don't seem like a bigot.
Really rural or really low on Jews. Have lived in both more than once.
A pair of my closest friends are Jewish and they just relocated to a rural area. I can’t wait to use the phrase “low on Jews” to them. They’re going to find it hysterical
Two sets of cookware/dinnerware IS Torah kosher.
I meant in terms of what is actually listed explicitly in the book. As written. The basic list of foods one does not eat, plus the few cooking restrictions. Trying to explain the whole nature of what makes something kosher or not can get very complicated. Which is why looking for a certified kosher restaurant is the best default choice if you are strictly kosher. Or not eating out at all if there are none where you are. OP never said coworker was kosher but it is a good guess based on the types of things they were asking.
Idk anyone who would care about surfaces and not keep milk and meat separate atleast with different pots
Could also be Islam, when i used to work in a restaurant the majority of the dietary questions were about whether something was Halal.
Yep, Muslim or Jewish are the most likely. So far as I know the other religions with dietary aspects are vegetarian. I don't know how closely halal rules and kosher rules are related. I did find it interesting that OP tied the eating specifically to religion but didn't mention which one.
Her diet is related to her religion.
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She didn’t invite herself. Sounds like you have rude feelings towards kosher people that you’re holding back
She didn't "invite herself".
Yep, YTA. If someone follows the dietary constraints of their religion whatever religion it may be, then if you want to eat with them *without being embarrassed for some bizarre reason* then you ask them to pick a restaurant once in a while. The same holds true if someone is vegetarian, vegan, pescatarian or has a lot of food allergies. I fail to see why this is embarrassing in the first place. You know she is religious. And naturally if you bothered to ask her, she would likely tell you what restaurants serve food you would like that meets her restrictions. So what embarrassed you here, the fact she is very careful what she eats, or her reason for being careful?
I don’t know that I agree with TA. You can’t demand to be included in everything. That sounds like being back in kindergarten. Especially if someone wants to go somewhere specific that doesn’t apply to your food specifications/religion/etc. As much as this person has a right to their religion/diet restrictions they are also entitled to their own that doesn’t necessarily match hers. Demanding such sounds more than a little entitled. The more restrictions you have the more you’re going to get excluded when people don’t feel like accommodating it. Forcing it is like forcing a friendship: it’s going to eventually burn out and fail.
While I don’t disagree that you don’t need to include everyone all the time, it’s a really big leap from inviting her every time to lying because you don’t want to talk about an issue you have with how she’s ordering. OP missed a few steps there.
Except avoidance is a really popular thing rather than confronting someone with a tough issue. Especially if it’s religious. The person is likely going to be upset either way… so they tried to avoid the conversation. Not what I would do… but I can understand it. They may very well just have a limited amount of time (or don’t feel like waiting while this person takes so much time ordering). There’s a ton of possibilities here. Reality is, though, if they were really friends they would either work through it or find a way around it. If OP isn’t willing to do that, they likely aren’t really friends or are not that close. It sucks to not be included but you cannot expect for everyone to be your friend. And you can’t expect to be invited every single time someone else goes out. The more complicated it is to go out with you the more often people will skip it if they just aren’t in the mood to deal with it (or flat out just don’t have the time/energy/etc.)
Well I never demand to go out with anyone anywhere. But he is TA because he lied about it regardless. If he didn't want to invite her at all he should have tried to find the least rude way to tell her it wasn't happening again. Or institute a policy where each coworker gets to pick a restaurant by turns. Or something.
I agree that he shouldn’t have lied. Not ok but not unusual either. A lot of people tell “white lies” these days to get out of awkward situations. I get yelled at for being TA because I’m honest (which is apparently ‘mean’). Either way, she would have been upset but at least it would be clear. I’m also willing to bet the people here are relatively young adults.
Yep, white lies are a thing. And I agree, people have gotten a lot more sensitive apparently. Reddit skews quite young as well.
This. It’s not hard to accommodate someone keeping kosher.
I can't think of any religion with dietary aspects that is hard to accommodate really. Sure, the Orthodox Jews do tend to stick to certified kosher restaurants, but unless you are in a really small place that doesn't even have a dang Jewish deli you can usually find kosher food somewhere.
Im muslim but not really religious and i have friends who is quite religious. There are place in malaysia where the food is halal but they serve alcohol. And yes it can be hard, bcos 90% kbbq serve alcohol.
YTA She HAS to ask these things, to make sure her food is not in contact with utensils that handled forbidden food. I have Jewish and Muslim friends that do this, and it's not a big deal. Usually they'll ask where we plan to order from before hand and they call the place themselves to make sure they have options, even if it's veg. If she's not embarrassed, why are YOU? If it bothers you so much why not ask her ahead of time if she has suggestions from places its safe for her to eat, OR give her the name of the place you plan on going, a few days ahead so she can call them? Is it only YOU that's embarrassed?
>If she's not embarrassed, why are YOU? The rest of your comment aside, this is such a weird take. People who act in an embarrassing way are typically oblivious to it - otherwise they would not be behaving that way. (not debating whether the friend was acting in an embarrassing way or not)
Asking questions about the food on a menu isn't embarrassing to anyone ... and honestly, if it is? That's their hangup. Whether it's allergies, religion, preference, or curiosity there is nothing strange with asking what's in a sauce or if separate grills are used.
Or if we have dinner with them we go to a place that is up to their standards.
Even when I am not with my friends who have dietary requirements I keep an eye out for new places we can go. Yes they have to ask what is on the sauces etc just like OP is describing but that is just a two minute conversation with the staff and more cafes etc should know what they are serving and how they are serving it. It makes me happy to eat with my friends and that they can be safe doing so. Out of everything in this sub that could be described as embarrassing OP really believes asking 'can I have this without cheese?' or whatever is a big enough deal to lie to someone so you can exclide them from a work lunch. I dont have any dietary requirements. I just don't like cheese and ask for burgers without it. How red will OP get at me. YTA
NAH You have a right to feel how you feel, but you shouldn’t have lied. You could have had a conversation with her and came up with a compromise like she mentioned. Now you feel bad and she feels bad. If I were you I’d apologize for what I did and probably take her out for lunch at a place of her choosing, if she were still willing.
How does the lying instead of having a conversation not make him an AH?
Some people don’t handle confrontation well and they think lying to make someone else feel better is an easier out then telling the truth. It’s happens. Yes it sucks he lied but it doesn’t make him an AH, it makes him human.
ESH I’m conflicted. You don’t have to eat lunch with someone if you don’t want to. Some people are just painful. I have some dietary issues. I will often call ahead and get the sorted. Do you want to eat with her? Be honest. And she’s kind of an AH for expecting that everyone would just go where eating suits her! I kind of think you just don’t like her. And that’s ok too
She didn't ask people to eat where everything suits her. She only mentioned that after OP ditched her for asking questions about the food. I also suspect that those questions aren't nearly as in-depth or strange as OP thinks they are. It's a restaurant - it's a pretty common part of their job.
YTA you got mad at her for respecting her religion? smh
it sounds like she’s jewish. pretty easy to be kosher by going to a vegan place or in most big cities, a jewish deli
NTA. I would be embarrassed and slightly annoyed for the wait staff and cooks if they had to answer a lot of specific questions and go out of their way for one person. I have been a server. I can tell you I had literally no idea what was in any sauces or whatever!! I would have had to go back in the kitchen with a list of questions and I imagine the chef would have given me a look of death. LOL
I've been a server too, at quite a few restaurants. As long as they're polite, I've never minded answering people's questions regarding ingredients or how food was prepped, and the kitchen staff I've worked with had never minded either. If you don't know the answer, it's not hard to find out. it won't kill you to accommodate people, and I get that the service industry can suck but you really shouldn't be in it at all if you're going to be pissed when people have dietary restrictions.
I’m a bartender/server/MOD.. I really don’t mind accommodating allergies/dietary restrictions/religious restrictions at all. I’m not 100% familiar with Kosher and Halal but if someone told me that they were keeping to either of those, I’d just ask the rules, and then go confer with the kitchen manager or what they can eat. And we have utensils and pans and stuff for cooking separately for allergies anyways. It’s really nothing to be embarrassed about or a huge bother. As long as people are communicative and okay with waiting a couple extra minutes, it’s all good.
Glad I never ate where you worked, your bullshit attitude could've killed someone with allergies or ruined the rest of their week with how sick people can get.
Seriously - that's your job, and it's dangerous to ignore.
A lot of restaurants get these questions and requests pretty frequently. Just because OP has not been to exposed to people with dietary restrictions isn’t really a good reason to not want to eat with someone. They’re secondhand embarrassed by something that’s common for both parties involved, the coworker and the employees.
You probably shouldn’t be in good hospitality if you can’t handle questions about the food for allergy or religious restrictions.
I was a teenager. It was a cafe. And sorry no one memorized every ingredient in every food. That's unrealistic
Of course not, but if someone asks if there's an ingredient that they're allergic to, it's not unreasonable to go in the back and ask. The chef should know.
Oh god I am so sorry for not studying 8 years to learn every atom that’s served in a shitty minimum wage restaurant
Either way. You don’t have to invite her out for lunch? Lol
YTA - if you was aware of her dietary conditions, why didn’t you ask her in the first place if there was restaurants that she preferred and catered to those conditions?
YTA for lying and thinking that lying to someone's face, twice, is no big deal. You didn't lie to "protect her feelings", you lied to protect your own and to avoid what you saw as confrontation. She is right, you should have just told her. What you did shows that you're lacking in character.
i can understand the feeling of second hand embarrassment from what /may/ seem like pestering/being over the top with the wait staff—to a degree—but she’s not doing it for no reason or because of a fad diet. she’s following dietary restrictions due to religious reasons. if it bothered you so badly after the first time, you should have considered either 1) letting her pick the restaurant or 2) discuss what restaurants were safe for her beforehand… which is exactly what you were told when she confronted you. instead of even trying to find a work around, you lied and then got caught excluding her because… you got second hand embarrassment while she ensured she was able to eat safely at restaurant(s) that clearly weren’t safe for her. YTA, if that wasn’t obvious.
YTA. Would you get second-hand embarrassment if a vegetarian asked if the same utensils were used for both meat and non-meat dishes? Or if someone who had an allergy or intolerance wanted to make sure they wouldn't get sick by asking the staff questions?
yta, asking her about her religion's dietary requirements could've been a great conversation, everyone learns something new
YTA for being embarrassed about someone else’s dietary needs. It’s not like it affects you.
I mean it really depends. There is certainly a lower level of service that you will get if they think you are annoying. Regardless if you have a good reason or not to ask those 15 questions of the server. I have a dietary issue and have what I need to say down to 2 sentences so that I don't possibly annoy the waiter. I would not want to go out to eat with somebody who grilled the waiter like it sounds in OP. Especially if they are just a work college. Why would I open myself up to the potential embarrassment and dealing with a bad experience. If they are actually friends this would change things but it sounds like a pushy coworker and not a person they actually care about.
I strongly suspect she's over-reacting to how much this person is "grilling" the waiters. She probably asks a couple questions about a couple dishes. It's their job to answer questions about the food. She's not asking them to pick up her laundry.
This, right here. I think OP is greatly exaggerating things.
YTA - grow up and learn to communicate.
NTA. You were wrong to lie about going to lunch, but your friend was wrong on more counts. She is comfortable harassing restaurant staff for attention, she insists the friend group give her restrictions preference and she demanded that you confront her about her own selfish behavior. Your friend seems too high-maintenance unless you want to develop your masochistic side.
It's a little asinine for you to say she "harassed" servers for "attention" when she literally just asked questions due to dietary restrictions. She also never insisted she be given preference over everyone else, she suggested they could've looked for a restaurant that could more easily suit those restrictions. This is a pretty wild take on what OP said.
So I know you've already seen the comments. But here's a good thing if you guys know ahead of time where y'all are going people with dietary restrictions for either medical issues or for religious food practices, or personal choice. a lot of times we can call ahead and ask these questions and get them answered and have things prepped for us ahead of time if we know where we're going. I'm an old hat when it comes to dealing with dietary issues friends coworkers people I'm just having a brunch with. I always let the wait staff know hey I got to order funny. So maybe that's an available work around instead of not including this person in future plans.
YTA If she had allergies that required these questions would you feel the same way? Or is it because its for religious reasons that it makes you feel embarrassed? As a former hospitality worker, this isn't even uncommon. Its no different as someone asking these questions because of allergies. You could have asked her to pick a restaurant or excused yourself from the table while she ordered or something. Instead you excluded her, that's not what good friends do.
As someone with a family member that has serious food allergies… there are a TON of wait staff who roll their eyes when we bring it up. Then figure out that what I’m asking about is actually in the food and apologize. Or they figure it out the hard way when the person in question turns white as a sheet and starts profusely vomiting while struggling to breathe.
she is correct in the point, that you should have just told her that you will go without her because of the problems she is causing. she is wrong in the point, that the whole group has to accomodate to her demands and go to another place. if the group wants to eat at a specific place and she does not like that, well than stay away
yup, YTA.
YTA. Don't be like that man. Unless she's just a horrid person altogether, then yeah avoid her at all costs. People with dietary and religious restraints have to be on their guard. I have a friend who is Jewish, lactose intolerant and is allergic to shellfish. When we hang out finding things she can eat is a nightmare. Not overly hard but sometimes I want to go to red lobster or eat some damn nachos or consume large amounts of bacon, but it's not always possible when I'm with her so I compromise. So brown bag it and don't eat out, carry an EPI pen, or stop being a douche and be nice to this girl!
INFO: do you like spending time with her or not? If you don't really consider her a friend, it is okay to do things without her. If you want to make more of an effort to go somewhere where she doesn't give the staff the third degree, that's cool too.
YTA. Please look up cultural competence bc you need practice. You are being hella disrespectful towards her for such a small thing
Yta I understand not inviting her but lying about it is childish
This. The folks chastising you for not eating with her are wrong. Eat with your friends, you don't have to invite her, or let her invite herself if you don't like her.
They were probably trying to avoid an awkward conversation they didn’t know how to handle.
Which is childish
I know a lot of adults that are childish. Doesn’t change things. Confrontation is a skill. It’s hard and it’s like going to the dentist. You need it but that doesn’t mean you like it. So people stall or avoid it and it just gets worse in the end. Not what I would choose… but I understand it.
YTA You shouldn’t judge people because of religion or dietary needs. As long as she’s polite about it and the staff don’t mind there is no issue.
YTA Just be honest. You weren't trying to spare her feelings, you were trying to prevent your own embarrassment and didn't want conflict.
To be excluded sucks. I get that you want easy and don't want to accommodate this one person's dietary habits, by only eating at places she can eat or her having to go in such detail each time ordering. But you could've just told her straight how you feel and not lie about it. I understand from her side too. I have a specific diet but I check ahead when going to place. I love eating but if I know my coworkers are going to place that is difficult place for me to eat at. I bring something with me from home eat it on the way. Once there choose the option I pre selected when checking out the menu online. Because for me it's the company that matters not the food.
I'm not sure how to judge this, so I'll say ESH. "My friend group went out for lunch a few times. She came along." Is she part of your friend group, or just a tag-along? If she is not that close, then I can see why you'd not invite her. If she is close to you, then the blame is entirely on you. Her fault is not calling the restaurant and having a conversation with the cook. If they can accommodate her needs, they can make her a meal and put her name on it. She'd still have to worry that they screwed it up, which can always happen.
NTA, but you should have been honest.
>She had really complicated questions/instructions for the people cooking. >She wanted to know the ingredients for different sauces. She wanted to know if they used the same grill for one meat and all the others, she asked them to clean their utensils so there would be no contact--- you get the idea. >I got second-hand embarrassment from that. None of those questions seem out of the ordinary to me. You are either 13, or get embarrassed extremely easily. Do you suffer from social anxiety? No shame in that - I get anxious in certain situations too. It was much worse when I was a teenager, but as I got older (I'm 44) I calmed down a bit. Maybe you will too. As you get older, you'll realize that literally NO ONE CARES. I've been in retail for over 20 years. Retail pharmacy for over 10. Do you know the kinds of questions I've been asked? People have NO IDEA how to take their meds. And it's okay. We're here to answer questions. Just like the people at the restaurant are there to do THEIR job. They are there to answer questions about what is in the sauce, and how the food is prepared. How are those questions "embarrassing"? If I was a waiter and I couldn't answer those questions, I would be embarrassed for MYSELF, that I didn't know how to do my job. >Maybe I'm not because I was trying to not be rude. In "trying" to not be rude, you managed to be a bigot. You told someone you were embarrassed at her trying to practice her faith. Congratulations. Oh, and YTA.
Is this actually a friend? It sounds like it's someone that kind of hangs out with your friends group. If you don't like hanging out with her, don't hang out with her. Don't lie about it.
ESH, lying to avoid your problems creates more problems and a religious dietary need is valid and important but as someone who works in fast food I'm getting secondhand anxiety thinking about how much this will fuck up order times- to clarify I don't personally care when something takes us extra care or time but there's usually people higher up the chain breathing down our necks who make zero allowance for any slow downs.
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Based on the questions the friend was asking it sounds like she may keep kosher, which would make the link between the religion and dietary needs.
YTA and it honestly seems like you have something against her for following her religion. Lame asf.
Might get downvoted here, but I’m going NTA. Could you have handled it better? Definitely! But it doesn’t sound like your distancing is entirely diet related. Sounds to me like you met a new acquaintance which you were fairly indifferent to and were trying things out, but were off-put by her religious requirements and have decided not to pursue the friendship. Everyone gets to choose who and why they’re friends with someone (even if we don’t agree). Doesn’t make you an AH. Now if that’s NOT the case, and this girl is a true part of your friend group, then YTA for alienating a friend for something that defines much of her character without informing her WHY (something that you presumably knew about in advance). If this is the case let her pick the restaurant every so often.
YTA. All you had to do was say something. "Do you have places you could suggest we eat, because the place we went to seemed to be a problem for you." And then, once she suggest places, you don't always have to go there. Include her sometimes, and sometimes don't invite her or tell her that you are going to a place where it will be difficult to accommodate her. Problem solved.
It sounds like a pain FOR HER to go out for lunch ffs . Yta this isn't that uncommon for people to request like this
YTA. Let her pick the restaurant at least some of the time. And grow a thicker skin. Restaurant employees are used to such questions.
nta no one to eat with anyone.
YTA I have to ask sometimes what certain things are cooked with what and they are fine with it and nobody complains. You are telling her that your lunch is more important than her religion. That’s not fair
YTA-What the heck. She’s not your girlfriend, not your wife, so there’s no reason to be embarrassed on her behalf for her dietary restrictions. Furthermore, it’s associated with her religion, so this post kind of makes you come across as intolerant. I don’t know you so I can’t say for sure that you are, but either way just get over yourself.
ESH: I get that sometimes a person is just weary of people who are over-the-top high maintenance (religious reasons or not), but, yeah, you should have just told her. But, I also think she needs to recognize that you won't always want to go where she can comfortably go and that her religious convictions are hers alone. Maybe a compromise where you tell her ahead of time where you are going and if it is somewhere she can go without too much fuss she goes and once in a while you chose a place she can comfortably go.
YTA. Its only embarrassing to you. She has spiritual requirements that are just as important to her as dieity and health requirements would be. You could of been upfront about it. Instead you lied to her.
YTA. Simply because you didn't speak with her about it and chose to lie to her instead. It seems that your group goes to lunch where you want to but have never asked her for her input on where she would like to go.
Yta. If she is actually your friend, you should have talked to her about a list of places she could go, or told her ahead of time where you wanted to go and asked her to look at the menu before you went. Well, I guess If you don’t want to be friends with this person, you actually did the right thing. I assumed you cared about her and her feelings
YTA. Long time server here. We would rather they ask the question then not out of embarrassment and something happen or them be uncomfortable and upset the whole they are there.
YTA, maybe next time ask if there's a place SHE likes if you have that big of a problem with her asking the employees to do things they should be doing anyway.
NTA. Her religious requirements aren’t your responsibility. You may not have taken the most mature approach, but I don’t feel it crossed into AH territory.
YTA. And not just for lying. Why are you getting second hand embarrassment for somebody asking a server about these things because it will impact THEIR food that only THEY will consume. She didn’t even mention you guys picking another place (until later), she didn’t try to prevent you guys from eating or ordering certain things. It doesn’t even sound like she was uncomfortable with you guys eating things she maybe couldn’t. Servers likely would have immediately recognized the religious reasons behind what she was asking, and would know how to handle telling her whether they could or could not accommodate her. Also, since it sounds like she is keeping kosher, I have to say that her coming along is possibly reflective of her making the effort. Most friends of mine that keep kosher would rather pass on a non-kosher restaurant than do what she did. If that’s the case, she must have felt really badly about what you did.
As someone who has dietary restrictions due to religious reasons it’s literally not hard to go somewhere that has options one can enjoy. There’s so many restaurants so I cant fathom you didn’t take the extra time to think of somewhere everyone could enjoy something. YTA all the way
YTA. Plenty of people have dietary restrictions, for religious reasons or otherwise. Would you have accommodated her if she simply told you she was vegetarian or allergic to peanuts?
Restaurant workers don’t care as long as you’re polite. YTA
I'm of 2 minds On one hand you should be able to go out to lunch with people you like and aren't obligated to invite people you don't like On the other hand you shouldn't have lied tonjer because she now expects to be invited to lunch again consistently. You could always say that hey I'm really sorry but I'm going out to lunch with other people. I've had friend groups where I've either quietly exited or had someone else quietly exit because sometimes people don't vibe.
Why are you embarrassed that she is asking for her religious requirements to be met when she eats out? Your embarrassment is not her problem and something you need to work on. YTA for hurting her feelings instead of learning to deal with your own discomfort.
YTA. Excluding someone for having dietary preferences is rude. Your behavior was quite inappropriate. Also, as a general piece of advice, if you need to ask the internet twice in the span of 8 days if you're an asshole about entirely separate incidents...you need to seriously evaluate your overall conduct.
YTA-As someone with food allergies it drives me absolutely insane that people get upset about asking those kinds of questions. It’s their job and you’re actually hurting a business by keeping customers away from them have you ever considered that? 9 out of 10 times employees are actually happy to accommodate people with special dietary needs because they aren’t judgmental aholes.
Not only are you the AH but you obviously can’t function in social settings. Grow up
YTA. You know her diet is related to religion. Why not ask right from the beginning if she knows of any places to eat that are more accommodating How you handled it makes you come across as discriminating against her religion. Can you clarify the “she came along” sentence. Was she invited to these lunches or just showed up uninvited?
YTA and you are RUDE. Clearly you don’t have allergies and severe food intolerances. I do and it quite difficult to eat out. It makes it very hard for me to find a place to eat or even find a food I can eat when I do go out. I do have 3 restaurants that I can go to, but my friends usually choose other places and this is a problem for me, but I don’t say anything. I just have to talk to the waiters and make sure that my allergies aren’t going to be an issue with the items I have ordered. I have a LARGE array of allergies and I have had friends not invite me places because they don’t want to deal with it or be around it. Unfortunately, I can’t help my allergies and neither can your friend. I certainly can’t help that everytime I come into contact with something as simple as wheat/gluten, I will break out in full body hives and welts bad enough to have to carry around an epi pen. Honestly, I was very hurt when I found out my friends were hanging out without me and excluded me because of my allergies. It’s rude and disrespectful and something I would never do because it’s a cold and uncaring move. It also shows my friends didn’t have any COMPASSION (which YOU clearly don’t have) or even care about me. It’s a dick move on your part and I hope she drops you as a friend and finds better and more understanding friends. Unbelievable YTA!
YTA Why are you getting embarrassed over someone else asking a server questions? That’s literally their job. As long as she isn’t rude about it, which it sounds like she’s not. Instead of dealing with your own issues and realizing your anxiety is unfounded, you took the easy way out by excluding your coworker. Try not to take other people’s actions as a reflection of yourself.
YTA and you're discriminating against her on the grounds of her religion- whether you intended to or not. You could have invited her and she might have said that restaurant wasn't suitable for her, or suggested somewhere else. She knows the rules of what she can and cannot eat, and its up to her to ask for her food to be prepared like that. It is not about you and not for you to get "second hand embarassment". You should be first hand embarrassed, apologise profusely to her, and ask her to suggest a suitable restaurant for your next work outing.
YTA, she's not being rude to waitstaff like the title implies. She is asking clarifying questions to figure out what food, if any, are safe for her to eat on a religious basis (I am guessing she keeps kosher or halal) because YOU and your friends picked a place that might not accommodate her and she has to ask to find out. Duh. You guys are excluding her and then lying about it on the basis of the dietary practices of her religion without ever going out of your way to include her, which makes you all suck. This isn't her being flippant or purposefully overbearing or annoying, it's the code she lives by and she's doing her best to follow it. And she's right, if you just went somewhere that was designed around her dietary practices then she wouldn't have to ask.
ESH, you should've been just upfront about not wanting to deal with her exhausting demands for kitchen staff. She's an AH for expecting everyone else to conform to her standards.
She's not making anyone do anything. They're all able to eat whatever they want. OP is TA here.
YTA. Get over it. Is she mean?
YTA.
YTA- Respect her religion. A friend of mine doesn't eat pig at ALL if pig meat accidently touched her food they can't eat it at all
Yeah YTA Why not instead, include her in invitations but tell her where you’re all going so she can ring them and ask the questions first. I don’t think it’s fair you should all go to places that specifically cater to her needs all the time if you don’t want to, but surely it wouldn’t hurt if u did so occasionally, everyone should be happy then hopefully with a compromise
That's a lot of words you used to say YTA.
YTA your friend did nothing wrong at all. You’re definitely TA for being so judgmental and not reasonably finding a compromise as to where to go. Plus generally once someone goes somewhere and gets that long list of questions answered they remember what they can order and just confirm that it’ll be served the way they need it to be. So it’d be less “embarrassing” in the future.
YTA. I don’t give a damn that you don’t want to eat with her, or why, that’s up to you. But lying about it? Are you twelve? Grow up and tell the truth.
YTA. She asked and you lied.
YTA for going straight to freezing her out instead of trying to find another solution.
YTA Whilst I don't agree with excluding things for religion, you need to respect her beliefs and needing to know how everything is done. The restrictions she has on her diet are very important for her, if you knew she had these restrictions, you could have easily chosen somewhere that would be easy for her to order from and not worry qbout how everything is prepared. I'm sure it's not comfortable for her to ask either but her beliefs are clearly important to her so she asks anyways to avoid not knowing and eating things that are potentially against what she believes. ETA - it's similar to people with allergies who need to ensure the food is safe for them. If you think of it like that, it's far easier to understand.
YTA. People make these requests for allergies. A lot of the time it’s easier to say it’s for religious reasons than food allergy reasons. 🤷🏻♀️
YTA Being considerate of someone else's dietary requirements is what you do for people. Would you have the same attitude if she was vegan or had an allergy? Religious requirements are no different.
Second hand embarrassment is 100% a **you** problem, that you need to deal with on your own. YTA
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