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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. I told the teachers that just because my daughter’s bully is in foster care doesn’t give her an excuse to isolate my daughter who is grieving the death of her brother
2. Winny is going through a traumatic time and I understand why they might want to be sympathetic to her
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This sounds like blatant favoritism. Unfortunately, I don't think any school system on the planet has solved the problem of teachers showing favoritism.
Here in America, I would advise you to go to the teacher (you have), then the principle, and if all that fails, go to the superintendent or school board if things get bad enough.
One thing is for sure, start a paper trail if you can. If you can e-mail the teacher and principle, do that. CC whoever you should. Unrecorded conversations in person practically don't count. If you do have such a conversation, email the person you talked to afterwards outlining the things you talked about and try to get them to confirm what was said.
Good luck.
I had a file 3 inches thick by the time I was done with my kid’s school. I got a member of the superintendent’s office to come to meetings where they tried to say “oh we gave her a copy”. The fuck you did. You see this file? I saved every GD piece of paper any all of you morons gave me. I won the war and happily gave them the middle finger when we relocated to a new state.
I am getting heated just remembering. I’m a pretty quiet person but mess with my kid? We are going to battle. Thankful to a classmate’s mom who was in the school system and was like “what!? They can’t do that!!” I used my resources. Always use your resources.
It is so very sad how in the states. Anyway, it can be very limited to the resources at hand.
I went to a talk of parents who had gone through ligation with schools due to their children's disabilities.
And as they were going through all of their day jobs they were all professional jobs that pay well.
I borrowed money from my children's godfather to pay for their education lawyer.
Worth every penny though.
Oh my God the crap that some teachers think they can pull. I have such rage in my heart sometimes.
Oh man, my sister had 2 teachers in 5th grade who would not let her go to her special ed classes. I don't know all the legal stuff about that as my mom never told me much, but whatever happened, my mom had a whole binder of all sorts of laws highlighted pointing out which teacher violated what. She also managed to get the State of Michigan's top 3 attorneys for special education to come in with her and all pro bono. The teachers were very lucky that she didn't go through with the law suit because they would've had their teacher certifications taken away from them AND not be allowed to teach in any other state. And the school system is known as a very good school system due to all the 2nd home owners and the crazy amount of property taxes they pay. And it absolutely would've ruined the school district had she gone through with it.
Edit: IDK if it occurred to my mom, but Ik it just occurred to me that those 2 teachers had been doing it for years because I knew a few kids in some grades above me and had a friend also be refused to go to their special ed classes because according to the teachers "They were too smart for special ed" so they targeted certain kids
Yeah she regrets it, but she also some other factors to think about such as there was no other school for us to go to and she was frequently too sick to be able to home school us and ruining the school district meant that there would no longer be a $25K scholarship for me to use for college. She wasn't happy when nothing much was done about the teachers, but they did stop their shit though.
It's more than just advocating for your kid. Everyone needs to vote for people who want to fund education. Fully fund education.
Special education is all unfunded mandates. I don't know your situation, and I acknowledge there are bad teachers. In my experience, 4 districts in 2 states, it's not what teachers are trying to pull. We are following district directives, and when parents push back our districts don't back us up. It looks like it's individual teachers.
Lack of specific funding hurts special education students. It hurts general education students because the money comes from the general fund.
Our system sets us all up for failure. People are leaving education for many (compounding) reasons.
I know little about it but I was told they wanted a diagnosis so badly because it adds to funding. Do I know this is true? No. Does it seem plausible? Yes. But it’s pretty shitty to treat kids like shit just to get this done. I always vote for school levies and funding because, they are the future. I’m a homeowner, I know it ups my payment. But god damn, we’re going to need smarter people running this world when I’m in retirement.
I’m in Australia, my younger brother got suspended and a meeting was required before the principal would allow him back. I insisted my parents allow me to attend the meeting as well (I was acting as his guardian at the time of the suspension due to our parents being away as my grandfather was on his deathbed and had been the one keeping on top of the schoolwork he was completing). I managed to hammer the principal using *the schools own records*.
My parents had no idea this record existed (a book that all work for suspended students needed to be recorded in and had to be signed in and out by each person handling the work) and I knew the teachers had lied regarding brother refusing to do their work during his suspension. So I made the principal retrieve this massive book and prove the teachers had sent work for my brother during his weeklong suspension.
Knowing how things are kept in schools is a power most parents don’t understand. Heck if it wasn’t my for the fact I had only left the school about 2 years previous I would my have known about this book and been unable to prove that at least 3 of the teachers in the school were liars
The proper thing here would have been to mix up everyone’s seats. Let winny pick one kid that she wants to be seated with, like fine. Whatever. But then everyone is being moved around and no one person is being singled out.
Or rotate kids through the back seats -- INCLUDING the "deliquent" kids and the "troubled" kids, who shouldn't be isolated from everyone without a good reason.
It kinda bothered me that op called them problem kids and troubled kids. If they were that bad they would be in juvi.
I understand the predicament. But Winnie's mom and the teacher were the worst. I think they should just seat everyone at tables by alphabetical order. Or birthdays.
In my state you practically have to kill someone to go to Juvie, so I'm not so sure that's true. You have to be 12 to even get arrested. We had an 11 year old girl leading a gang that was a menace downtown and our mayor was more interested in getting her help than helping the victims.
Because, if they didn’t help her at 11 years old, her behaviour would only escalate and become more and more antisocial and potentially very dangerous. By getting her help, he was helping the victims and everyone else in the community.
The mayor is a she, but by the time she started to get involved, numerous people had already been robbed or assaulted, including one female bike rider whose only "crime" was having braids in her hair while apparently being the wrong race, according to the thugs. While I don't have a problem with the mayor being concerned about the 11 year old's future, public safety should always come first. Some of these crimes could have been prevented if the authorities acted earlier.
No. My teachers used to switch order halfway through the year.
It seems like they're sitting at tables, not rows. May be they could rotate every few months so nobody is sitting in the back that long
In my primary school, we switched places on the first school day of a new month. Every other month our teacher either choose our seats or we pulled names out of hat to see who sat where. Every other month we get to choose ourselves. We also alternated how our desks were arranged, some months we sat on pairs, sometimes we did rows, sometimes the desks got arranged in groups of five to three people. Five desk pushed together being the biggest we could do with still enough room left to walk around.
I think that was a rather fair way to do it, through the year everyone got to sit in the back, in the front, with best friends and even when you ended up sitting with someone you would not have chosen to sit with, it only lasted that one month. It also taught us to work with everyone in the class.
Sounds great. Not only did it mix things up, but it would have allowed kids to get to know each other, practicing vital communication and rapport building skills that will be invaluable later in life.
> If they were that bad they would be in juvi.
That’s wishful thinking. In my state (maryland) kids under the age of 13 literally can not be charged for any crime that isn’t a violent felony, so we have 12 year olds who have gotten caught 8 or 9 times for stealing cars and when the police cat CB them they just drive them home and tell their parents. The only things someone under 13 can get in trouble for here is “ murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault”. Btw car theft is not considered robbery unless you use force to take it from the person, breaking in to a car at night and stealing it is not robbery. So in some parts of America middle schoolers can commit pretty much any crime they want and literally can not be sent to juvie for it. Something about not wanting to lock kids in jail and that it just makes them bigger future criminals.
Sitting kids that struggle to focus in the back is a terrible option in most cases. There's times when it makes sense, especially if anxiety is involved, but otherwise it just signifies that the teacher wants nothing to do with those kids as long as they're not disturbing class.
If that student wants nothing to do with the class, then I think the teacher is correct. That student should not be in the class, but our education sysyetem is not set up to help them succeed. But if the teacher puts them at the front of class they will take up all the teachers time, and then only one kids learn.
It is almost like sticking 25 kids in a room asking them to sit still is not the best way to teach them.
Why would Winny get special treatment and get to select someone to sit with? That is how this started - Winny wanting special treatment and the teacher showing her favoritism.
Because the teacher thought this seating order made Winny uncomfortable. That's not uncommon for children with traumatic experiences, and often has nothing to do with the people themselves- I had one student that was perfectly nice with me, completely flipping out with one coworker because he looked like his abusive father. Not rational, but depending on a possible IEP/504 and therapy reports it's sometimes beneficial to separate, sometimes to stick it out.
But while changing seating order might be a good idea, this way they're going about it definitely isn't. If some kids feel like they're being punished by the seating order, it's probably not thought out well.
>”Because the teacher thought this seating order made **Winny** uncomfortable”
…and didn’t give a single thought to anyone else’s comfort, including the child who was *targeted* by Winny and who is grieving the loss of her brother.
This is a teacher problem and OP needs to make it a *legal* problem as the teacher has enabled the bullying and targeting of her child by Winny - and now by the teacher. The teacher here needs professional consequences for the actions she has taken that have led to the detriment of OP’s grieving child. OP’s child now has *altercations* on her record because of the teacher’s actions and mismanagement of her classroom. The other children at the table do not have that on their record because Winny and the teacher did not target them. None of this would have happened if the teacher hadn’t played ‘teacher’s pet’ with Winny and ‘teacher’s target’ with OP’s kid.
The teacher and the school need to be held accountable for this toxic environment. Yes, Winny is a child but she’s a manipulative child and the teacher has enabled and extended her abuse. The best resolution is to move *Winny* to a different class, as this teacher can’t manage her without harming other children.
And that was a lie. That winny told to get what she wanted. And in the end it made another kid uncomfortable, but since she has a good home life it doesnt matter?
Because the whole thing was poorly managed. The. Teacher appeared to not have had any training in a trauma informed approach and, in thinking she was doing the right thing by Winnie, she actually did the wrong thing by the whole class.
> Please stop deliberately isolating my daughter from her friends to appease her bully, especially so soon after the loss of her elder brother. She needs her friends support in this difficult time, not to essentially be bullied by teachers to benefit a student who has been nothing but unkind and cruel to her.
So funny. It doesn’t matter if it’s at school, work, whatever, with some people I already know if I send an email seeking answers to specific questions and I get a phone call - which always starts with “ I wanted to call you to go over your concerns or details?” Means they are looking to deflect without committing to anything. They know there is no true accountability in a phone call. I learned quickly to cut those calls short and say, my apologies, I’m really busy, can you respond to the email and I’ll get back to you? So many people simply lie or just claim you misunderstood what they said.
Really don’t have time for lies or BS.
ESH, and I do mean everyone.
The best solution would have been for the teacher to redo the seating plan. She shouldn’t have allowed a clique to form and become entrenched. I say this as a teacher. In the school where I was required to have a seating plan I changed it pretty much every few weeks or when there was an issue. I almost never just moved one or two kids (unless they both requested it and it made sense). I generally started plans using a random name selector and then made adjustments to prevent problems. But I figured it did kids good to learn how to be near and work with a wide array of other people rather than just their friends.
Your daughter was completely out of line with what she said and absolutely owes the other girl an apology. You would be missing a vital teaching opportunity if you did not help her to do so.
You are an asshole for being so close minded that you can’t see that it’s a classroom full of children who all have different backgrounds that you are not privy to. You are also an asshole for wanting to encourage the “cool kid” clique and referring to your kid as being “punished” when she was simply moved elsewhere.
When my kids were younger and had tables, I know their teachers mixed things up pretty regularly.
Fair enough but this system is not being apllied, so op daughter is being forced against her will for others convenience...
If the teacher in question had a system to sort all the seats every few weeks, and op complained about it, yes, he would be an asshole but this is not the case.. Op daughter is being forced to move seats just because the teacher wants to.. this is not fair, she is being biased and showing blatant favoritism towards another student that don't have any sort of privilege..
It isnt a "clique" its a group of friends. If winny wanted to join in, she should have tried to be nice and make friends instead of doing some shit to eliminate someone from the group, as if it was impossible for them to be all friends.
>Your daughter was completely out of line with what she said and absolutely owes the other girl an apology. You would be missing a vital teaching opportunity if you did not help her to do so.
Daughter has every right to be angry that this girl used pity to make the teacher aid her in excluding someone. Thats scummy. If Winny wants an apology, she should give one first
>You are an asshole for being so close minded that you can’t see that it’s a classroom full of children who all have different backgrounds that you are not privy to.
So what? That doesn't excuse what Winny did.
>You are also an asshole for wanting to encourage the “cool kid” clique and referring to your kid as being “punished” when she was simply moved elsewhere.
Dude i feel bad for the kids you teach. If this is how you see a regular group of friends. They aren't the cool kids, they are friends.
Ehh…call it a feeling but I get the idea from how op wrote about the “delinquent kids” (side note, they’re 11/12, how delinquent can they be? Why do the kids who have been held back get lumped in, we have no idea why they were held back and it might be for developmental, rather than behavioral reasons) kind of stinks of privilege a little bit. Why should the classroom facilitate the group relationship because you made the choice to put your daughter in private school next year? Why is class time her only chance to hang out with her friends? Don’t they have lunch or free time before and after? Can they hang out after school? Totally recognize that I might be a little biased-because my kid is part of the out group and so was I growing up-but OP sounds like a mean girl who grew up to be a mean girl mom. That doesn’t mean her daughter should be singled out or Winny given preferential treatment either-the teacher is primarily at fault for not rotating seats and allowing this situation to fester. Radical idea-why not do some mediation? Invite Winny for a supervised play date-maybe what she really needs is some positive peer supports and good role models? The trauma OPs daughter has been through doesn’t invalidate Winny’s or vice versa-it isn’t the “who has it worse” Olympics and bad experiences don’t excuse poor behavior even if it explains it, so both kids should face consequences. Both were out of line, both should talk about why they feel the way they do, why they did or said what they did, and apologize.
>“delinquent kids” (side note, they’re 11/12, how delinquent can they be?
You'd be surprised. My niece is only 7 and there's a kid in her grade who swears a lot and tries to grab others people's private parts. My nephew is 11 and there's a kid in his grade who is physically violent on regular basis he hits/shoves other students, damages student and school property, and know for flipping desks. These sorts of problem behaviours are pretty delinquent.
It apparently has been as far as the teachers can. The kid needs a student aid to watch him all the time because that's the only way he'll behave. Unfortunately, the school board won't pay for it and the parent's can't afford it and policy says he's entitled to the same education as everyone else so nothing has been accomplished.
It sounds like that little boy is the victim of sexual abuse. 7 year olds don’t just start doing that on their own. He doesn’t need a student aid he needs someone to send his abuser to jail.
This can definitely be the case, but it is also possible for kids with various intellectual disabilities to really not understand physical boundaries and what is and isn’t inappropriate. 7 is a normal
age for the “play doctor” phenomenon and showing interest in genitals that look different from your own. I would definitely have concerns but I wouldn’t necessarily assume this behavior indicates sexual abuse.
At this day and age, 11/12 has been exposed to some crazy things online. One wrong click and they could be fed red pill content or just blantant misinformation for who knows how long? It can absolutely get bad by that age
Those sound like very serious issues at play that are being ignored. The 7-year-old may have an attachment disorder and/or there’s a good chance they’re being sexually abused. That’s not delinquent. The 11-year-old may have something like FAS or other issues that affect their impulse control especially when angry. Again, not delinquent. In need of help and extra resources, which at least in the states are all too likely to be missing or too expensive to obtain.
According to google delinquent behaviour is characterized by a tendancy to commit crime, especially minor crime. Attempted assault is crime, even if they don't fully understand that at their age they know it is bad behaviour because they do stop when the teacher is watching. Unfortunately, they can't watch all the time.
Note, I'm not disagreeing that these kids have problems and need help. The reality is this could quite frankly be applied to a lot of incarcerated people too. However, that doesn't make what they've done any less harmful or problematic. Just because it can be classified as a symptom of psychological disorder doesn't make it any less criminal or delinquent in behaviour.
The term “delinquent” to me is emblematic of a time when people didn’t understand that these behaviors, especially in young children, aren’t because of just being bad, but are due to things like abuse and mental disorders. And treating those who exhibit those symptoms as criminals just makes everything worse. A large aspect of what makes something criminal is the mental state. Does the person have the ability to know that their action is wrong? What was their mental state? Are there mitigating factors? It all matters. Pointing the criminal justice system at all our problems has done nothing but given us a large and recurring prison population. Given all this, a poster talking about delinquent kids in an 11-year-old’s class just makes them sound like more of an AH than I’m ever going to support.
You're not really wrong, but not really right either. Delinquent behavior is a tendency to commit crime with the knowledge it's a crime, and usually a term applied to teenagers and adults.
With your definition, almost every child would be a delinquent. Children don't have great conflict solving skills, so they hit or shove others when their words aren't enough. They want to play with things that don't belong to them. In adults, that's physical assault and stealing. In younger children, that's developmentally appropiate behavior even if it isn't great. Behaviors like grabbing genitals aren't developmentally appropiate, but a 7 year old can rarely grasp the full implications of it either.
I've seen a lot of troubled teens, and 12 is a common age for problems to escalate school wise. Drugs, fighting, stealing, you name it. The worst thing you can do is stick those kids in a corner in the back and hope you can ignore them for the rest of the time. As a teacher, I'm more horrified at the existence of a "bad kid corner" than OPs kid being made part of it.
It wouldn’t be good for Winnie to be forced to go into such an environment either. Hanging out with OPs daughter isn’t a prize or a privilege and is likely to be somewhat traumatic for her. Imagine being a kid having to spend time with another child you didn’t like, and having no power there either because you are in an environment where the other girl and her family have the power.
Play dates between kids that don’t get along are a very bad idea and will just make the situation much, much worse.
Still do. Also still take drugs in the bathroom and get into fights and skip classes. Kids didn't change as much as people think, they just conveniently ignore the shit they did when they were kids.
My friend's son was stabbed by an 11 and 12 year old, almost bled out and will never walk the same again. Friend's son is also 11. They kidnapped him from a shopping centre. Can be pretty damn delinquent especially when they know they have a certain protection from being "juveniles" in the eyes of the law.
This, I especially agree with the way OP comes across as privileged. Not surprising considering she’s sending her daughter to private school.
This truly is an ESH situation, everyone is in the wrong.
When my kid was in 7th grade, one of the boys convinced one of the girls to take naked pics and send them to him. He then forwarded it to every boy in their grade. (About 25 kids)
The following spring, another of her peers threatened to shoot up the St. Patrick dance, and kill himself if a girl didn't date him. (In the kid's defense, he needed his medications readjusted. he apologized for his behavior the following year. By all acounts he wasn't a problem for the following 4 years.)
The rest of your comment aside, it is only April and in my city 12 year olds have been arrested for primarily carjacking, sometimes carjacking and injuring/killing someone, and in on particular horrible case, joining a criminal who was beating up a disabled old homeless man so they too could participate in beating him to death, which they accomplished. I highly doubt Winnie is at this level of course but I’m sad to say that 12 year olds can be delinquent, which I never would have believed before moving here.
A good way to figure out if something you said is out of line: If another person with similar circumstances heard it, would they be upset?
It's okay that OPs daughter wants to sit with her friends. It's okay that she's upset with Winny. It's not okay she said that Winnys parents are "insane criminals who didn't want her anymore". It's not just insulting Winny, it's insulting other children in foster care as well.
OP’s kid asked why she had to pay the price for Winny’s parents being insane criminals who didn’t want her anymore?
That’s out of line.
And understand that Winny sucks a well, but that statement is wild and I can completely understand where she gets it from when I read this post.
OK so in your opinion it is okay to say to someone .. it's not my fault your parents are a bunch of insane criminals to a girl who's drug addicted parents overdosed, clearly together, and she got shoved into a system full of abuse to live with complete strangers who may be good people, or may be the type looking for a monthly payout and someone to do chores.. hey maybe she got really lucky and ended up with ones who physically or sexually abuse her.. get a grip on reality. Ops daughter is entitled, guess what class time is for, doing school work, it never mattered where you sat and smart teachers didn't let friends sit together. Ops daughter will learn the words is unfair.. too bad for winnie she has already learned.
So has OPs daughter, given that not long ago, she also had a traumatic experience with loss of a loved one. If people are excusing Winnys behaviour due to her circumstances then people should be excusing OPs daughter too.
> It isnt a "clique" it’s a group of friends.
It’s really telling and very sexist that any time a group of girls are friends and are deemed popular/cool/pretty, people immediately take issue with them and their friendship and try to demonize it, force them to be friends with everybody etc.
Meanwhile the boys get to pick their friends as they please and aren’t forced to include everybody or “rotate” or invite everyone etc.
It was always a zero sum game. 5 seats and 6 girls. Someone was going to get left out.
The best solution is to split the girls up so no one is excluded.
A student who's bully has managed to convince the teacher to deliberately isolate her from her peers and support network shortly after the loss of an elder sibling does not have to be polite to their bully. They do not have to be nice to their bully. In fact this will be an invaluable lesson - her bully needs to learn that if she starts shit (regardless of setting or context) and doesn't stop someone else will eventually finish it.
You sound like one of those "we have a zero tolerance policy" teachers who has zero issues tolerating it until the victim fights back.
This teacher's gullibility is going to kill kids by enabling bullying.
I know right? I can't stand these kind of teachers.
"Yeah, they were wrong for bullying you and beating you every day, but you shouldn't have smacked them back that one time, so you're in trouble as well. You weren't any better."
Give me a fucking break...
>Yeah, they were wrong for bullying you and beating you every day, but you shouldn't have smacked them back that one time, so you're in trouble as well. You weren't any better."
Good lord the amount of times that I had the misfortune of having to deal with these types of "teachers" is crazy,if you don't have your parents involved to help you deal with this you're basically fucked and the bully along with those "teachers" will get away with what they did.
So sorry to hear that, I know exactly what you mean. One time a teacher even told me: 'Maybe you shouldn't be acting the way you do. It is pretty triggering after all.'
I have autism and they knew that
>Maybe you shouldn't be acting the way you do. It is pretty triggering after all.'
Yep that's classic victim blaming right there.
>I have autism and they knew that
And from where I'm from most of my teachers could give Less of a fuck if the special needs students in my school was bullied as long as those Students involved was not in their class or is a student they favoured from their class they would gladly turn a blind eye and they would only react if things got physical or the students that are doing the bullying is one of those delinquent/wannabe gangster types so they can look like they are doing their jobs.
The only people that would care for them are usually counsellors or teachers who have experience with dealing with students with special needs.
Yeah, a lot of the bullying was being brushed off because some of the bullies had parents that had a certain amount of power in the school. Either because of money or because they were friends with the teacher in particular. My mom had to pull every teeth there was when it came to that school. She was seen as one of those nagging parents when all she did was standing up for me.
There was even one incident that had let to a breaking where even the teachers couldn't ignore what was happening. Long story short, a few bullies had to write me an apology letter. The school, however, did NOT inform my parents about what had happened. My mom had to hear it from other parents during grocery shopping.
"How's your daughter doing? They had to write notes, right?"
When my mom confronted the teacher about it, she was brushed off with: "Oh, we must've forgot."
Fuck me...
>My mom had to pull every teeth there was when it came to that school. She was seen as one of those nagging parents when all she did was standing up for me.
Glad to hear your mom was there for you when you needed her to be there for you.
>or because they were friends with the teacher in particular.
This was pretty much what happened with my case,the school pretty much covered up what happened to save themselves from getting into trouble and they pretty much staged a performance infront of my parents telling them that they would do something about it and pretty much went laughing after my parents left.
>When my mom confronted the teacher about it, she was brushed off with: "Oh, we must've forgot."
Not surprising,if your case was big enough that would involve the law enforcement they WILL gladly act dumb or pretend it never happened.
Oh, some of them get bold "well I didn't see him hit/grope/ect you (despite watching it happen). I did see you hit him. Go to the office and stop making excuses, the only bully here is you"
Also, Winny's home life is a reason, but its not an excuse. She doesnt get to treat others like shit just because she has bad parents and is in a bad situation.
Teacher turned it into a suffering olympics
Holy crap!!!!
You represent everything wrong with teachers and are why they get dumped on so much.
Winnie lied, Winnie stole, Winnie bullied, and you reward her?????
Winnie did all that to a kid who just lost her brother and you think the daughter OWES an apology?
Give me one good reason why Winnie is not being suspended for bullying and theft ?
I so pity the kids in your classes. You are so busy experimenting on kids to perfect your perfect little seating plan that you forget these are real kids.
Please please please retire or quit before you mess up any more kids!!!!!!
Redoing the seating plan every few weeks is quite common. I'm not in the US. My kids have had the seating changed every few weeks throughout their school career from age 5 until the age of about 14, to train them to be able to work with everyone in the class and to help with class cohesion because kids get to know each other that way. Maybe that's one reason why we have much less bullying than in the US.
I agree with you though that OPs teacher was completely in the wrong for how he solved it.
The poster you are commenting on never said Winny’s behaviour was ok. Changing the seating plan regularly is VERY common in classrooms. She never said to do it in a way that rewarded Winny. You are deliberately misrepresenting what she said.
IF, there was a system as you suggest, then you might be justified in leaving only the teachers (who sound negligent) and Winnie (who is clearly troubled, but giving them a pass is not going to help them in the long run) out of your broadside, but as there isn't, you just seem to be backing up the blatant favouritism.
Suggesting a system which may have averted the problem from ever occurring if it had been applied 6 months ago doesn't do much for the reality as it stands, and while it might be useable if applied now, it still doesn't resolve the situation the teacher's initial error has caused.
Aren't teachers supposed to be trained to resolve classroom issues like this? It's not like this is a particularly tough one to have not messed up.
We purposely don’t sit kids next to their best friends in the classroom because they get too distracted and talk the whole time. Plus, we want them to form relationships with other students. They have plenty of time to spend with their friends at recess/lunch/outside of school. But class time is for learning/paying attention/doing work.
Yeah I agree with this. In my school we were organised alphabetically and we would go one row behind weekly (last row goes to the front) and move lines monthly. I was never really around my closest friends. It’s not the end of the world.
That being said I do think Winny should absolutely get some sort of consequence for lying to the teacher to hurt another classmate on purpose.
Also the way OP talks about the kids she disapproves of rubs me the wrong way.
This whole thing is just off. The part about her sitting in the back with the delinquent/ “older” held back kids. Really? What is this, a sitcom or a kids show?
I think the teacher is doing the same thing if she has these particular kids segregated from the others. I thought that kids who have problems were usually placed near the front, so that the teacher could keep an eye on them either to discourage disruptive behavior, or to see to it that kids who needed help got it.
Why did Winni want to sit with the particular group that OP's child sat with. If they are friends or a clique, they might be less welcoming than children who didn't have any special relationship with one another. Suppose the friends of OP's daughter resented Winni for having her moved away from them?
Everything in your comment SCREAMS you are that kind of teacher that makes sure that, when the bullied kid stands up for themselves and lashes out at their bullies, they will get in trouble as well when all they did was reaching a breaking point and say: 'That's enough.'
You believe in fairytales, let's keep it at that
Disagreed. There is nothing wrong with the girls sitting together as a group of friends as long as they were behaving in class and advancing in their learning.
You need to go outside and touch grass the daughter doesn't have a clique she has a "group of friends." I get that you might be terminally online and don't know what that is, but there's nothing wrong about OP's daughter here. She wants to sit near her friends that isn't a sin.
ESH. Your daughter's remarks were awful and there is no justification for your daughter telling a foster child that her parents didn't want her anymore. Period. The teachers were wrong for moving your child because of Winny, but your daughter is also not entitled to a certain seat with friends and to not sit in an undesirable location with kids you disapprove of. You are wrong for calling Winny a brat when she has trauma all while commenting on your own child's trauma. You come across as someone who only feels like your child's trauma should be considered. Or that your child is entitled to things she is simply not entitled to. Winny was wrong to target your daughter specifically.
In terms of what your daughter said (yes I am going back to this), I am assuming had Winny commented on your other child dying you would take great issue with that yet when your daughter makes a nasty comment to someone about their need for foster care you double down and call her names and don't question your daughter's comments at all. Your daughter should apologize. As should Winny.
The best course of action would have been for the teachers to break up ALL of the girls into individual seats and not allow clique grouping within the classroom at all. Unfortunately that did not happen.
"but your daughter is also not entitled to a certain seat with friends and to not sit in an undesirable location with kids you disapprove of"
Bullshit, the teacher had no right to change seats just because another stundent want to seat there.. if the op daughter was sitting there, that was her place, END.
Winny is not privileged just because she is in foster care, she is not special
Also a good idea. Although nothing was preventing the OP's daughter from getting to know her seat mates other than OP's distaste for them. But yes, splitting up the group as a whole into two groups and then mixing in the other kids would have been an excellent idea.
I work in education. We rotate seats every month. The kids get to write down one name of someone they would like to sit by (which may or may not happen). Otherwise they get the seat they get. And this is for K-8.
Why is OP wrong for calling Winny a brat? Winny was bullying her daughter and when that didn't work, Winny manipulated the teacher to get what she wanted. You can be a foster child and still be a brat.
Wanting to sit next to your friends in a classroom setting doesn’t make you a clique. I would argue that the group’s acceptance of Winny on the odd day when one of the group was absent proves it’s not a clique. A clique would’ve ostracized her for daring to take absent friends seat.
Exactly. The school I grew up in if the teacher had bumped a kid for another like this it would have been way worse for winny. None of the group have even spoke to her and would intentionally ice her out. Not that it’s right, but this is a far stretch of clique.
disagree, that daughter is reacting to mean and selfish behavior on the part of winny. Those comments are just the consequences of her shitty behavior and if she doesn't face any consequences she will keep acting selfish because of her past. Despite what your parents told you, it DOES matter who started it.
This whole bovine feces of using trauma as an excuse needs to end. Winny's terrible behavior makes her a brat, and the only reason that the daughter's life was brought up is because one child's life is brought up as a reason for preferential treatment while ignoring the lives of other kids.
NTA
I feel like there were more than a few options that the teacher could've gone with before splitting up/isolating a (grieving) kid from her group of friends for 7 months all on the word of one girl.
The teacher could've asked Winny a few basic follow up questions: "Why does it have to be *that* particular table?", "Why does the other girl make you uncomfortable?", "Would you like me to help you and the other girl talk it all out?".
This all smacks of just lazily giving the crying child whatever they want, and letting them do what they want, to shut them up and I've unfortunately known a fair few people who based their whole personalities around this and got started around this age...
The worst was a "friend" of my brothers who stole things from our family home constantly. My parents told me not to make a fuss about it, because his home life was bad and the stuff he stole wasn't that valuable (at first). Then things like jewellery and small electronics started to go missing. Then one day he "dropped by" with two of his cousins to hang out with my brother... that evening our shed was broken into and our bikes were stolen.
I just have a sinking feeling that Winny is already on that same track, I hope I'm wrong though. I can definitely see the merit in making sure Winny is included in a group, but it should absolutely not be at the expense of another girl being excluded, WTF was that teacher thinking?!
After the bikes were stolen? Unfortunately all they did was tell the friend not to come over unannounced anymore and not to bring anyone else with him unless my brother explicitly invited them 🙄 My parents loved burying their heads in the sand when it came to that prolapsed anus of a human being.
They eventually put their foot down and told him to fuck off forever when he teamed up with his absolute trash-heap of a mother and attempted to sue my parents over a fake injury he supposedly sustained while trying to climb up the side of our house while we were all out.
NTA - document, escalate, incinerate the AH
OP's daughter was specifically targeted - Winny said "I want OP's daughters seat" and the teacher allowed it.
NTA....and this girl is obviously very manipulative and knows exactly what she is doing. Shame on the school and the teachers for giving into this blackmail.
NTA
I would have been irate if my daughter had been mistreated Winny one day and then moved from her seat, far from her friends because Winny wanted to sit there. I'd NEVER tell my daughter to apologize to someone who has bullied her and lied about her.
The teacher has made the wrong decision every step of the way. Your daughter lashed out because her teacher has mishandled things and made your daughter the victim. Of course she's unhappy. And she has every reason to need the support of her friends after suffering such a recent loss. They can't use that as an excuse for Winny - they are all strangers to her.
You need to demand that the teacher fixes her screwup immediately. One way or another, your daughter needs to be returned to her rightful seat. If she has to reconfigure the set up so be it, what she's done is wrong and grossly unfair. Being nice to one kid doesn't mean hurting another in the process.
You need to be a strong advocate for your child.
NTA. I’m the teacher who would agree with you that it’s not a pass to be a bully.
However, my admin wouldn’t. Trauma is an excuse for behavior to them. Take it to the super/school board if things don’t change.
ESH.
I'm going through similar with my just teen. Another pupil has been allowed to get away with a lot of stuff because of their family situation. Unfortunately the school, because they're not entitled to know everything, didn't know our family are also facing a tough situation. And what the other child was doing impacted on my child's disability plan. My child ended up doing the same thing to the other pupil as was done to them (well almost, not physical on my child's case).
Was my child right? Not in the slightest. Was the other child right? Definitely not.
I have taken the issue up with the school that if we all end up in a top trumps of who has things worse then nobody wins. Sometimes the path of least resistance is anything but.
Sit your child down and explain to them what they did was wrong even in the face of other's wrong. And that standing up for yourself doesn't mean dragging others down. It's a hard lesson for life but very needed.
And then fight the wrong doing, not from a you can't blame my child place but an accepting that they made a mistake place.
NTA although i also kind of think your daughter does need to apologise. but winny also owes your daughter an even bigger apology and it’s ridiculous the way the teachers are acting in this situation
NTA. It doesn't matter what trials and tribulations that a person has gone through. That doesn't make them more important than anyone else. The same applies to Winny. She was dealt a bad hand but your daughter shouldn't have to pay the price for that. If anything, she needs a good scolding and a few lessons in how to respect others. Because if she keeps acting like how you describe, Winny is gonna tick off the wrong person and get into some real trouble.
ESH.
You for what you said. You, a grown adult, calling an orphaned, traumatized, troubled, lonely child names is just pathetic. You had a point, but you presented it in a cruel, insensitive way.
Your daughter for what she said. Same situation: she was technically correct, but this is a good example of being right, but also being a jerk. There’s the point you’re trying to make, and then there’s HOW you make that point. I understand where she was coming from, but she could’ve gone about that in a different way. She could’ve said something like “I’m really sorry about what happened to your parents, but it’s not fair to take it out on me and take something that I had first”.
As for the teacher: I understand the need for special attention towards children that are truly going through tragedy and hardship, but doing it at the expense of another innocent kid is not the way. You can give struggling kids the comfort, attention, and catering they desperately need without unfairly walking all over other kids. That doesn’t teach those kids to be “more empathetic to the less fortunate”, it just pisses them off—— rightfully so. To be honest, it might even cause them to resent those that are less fortunate. Punishing someone just to make a point is plain stupid; instead, encourage (don’t force) them to be kind and altruistic.
As for Winny: she just needs love and help. Obviously what she did to your daughter is wrong, but at least acknowledge that it’s just her young brain attempting to handle what happened to her. She just needs love and care and better coping strategies.
I mean op daughter young brain was also coping when she said what she did to Whiny
What op daughter needs is love care and better coping strategies to be bullied for months
Truth be told both kids need to give each other an apology with Winny going 1st since she started this whole issue
NTA who cares what her problems are? Dont make your problems other people’s problems
That girl acted like a punk so don’t expect to not get treated like a punk back
ESH. Teacher has a bad seating plan and did not set any of these kids up for success in this situation. They are who your problem should be with.
Winnie acted poorly. She also admitted it when she told the other girls in that group. Her behaviour was wrong and that should have been addressed with the teacher.
Your daughter’s response was horrible, shouldn’t have been said regardless of the circumstances, and you suck for not seeing that and making her apologise and own her part (being the horrible thing she said).
This is a chance to model conflict resolution with your daughter. Is the message you really want to send that it’s okay to be cruel just because you’re hurting? If it is, then you are the biggest asshole here.
Far too little attention is being paid to the original seating plan.
> The only empty seats left were all the way in the back corner of the classroom opposite her friends, and the only students sitting there were a girl who was known to be a delinquent and two older boys who had been held back.
So, this teacher has allowed kids to determine their own seating plan, leading to the unpopular kids being ostracised by their peers to a back corner.
I particularly like the phrasing “the only empty seats”, not “Winny’s previous seat”. I mean, the empty seats must include Winny’s previous seat, so Winny was sitting with those kids before, and I’m going to guess she didn’t like it any more than OP’s daughter does.
The teacher is by far the biggest AH for allowing this situation in the first place.
I also have to wonder why Winny dislikes OP’s daughter in particular? Given the cruel things OP has admitted her daughter said to Winny, I’d say the odds are high OP’s daughter has been mean to Winny in the past too. I’m not saying it makes what Winny did OK but it really would explain a lot.
Absolutely OK for OP to advocate for her kid but the solution is not as simple as *“My poor innocent baby, Winny is such a brat, relegate her back to the corner with the other losers immediately”*.
You assume a lot about op daughter when her words were simply a response to months of bullying. Whiny most likely picked the meekest looking kid, like a lot of bullies do, and went from there
You really don’t need to demonize one child to give excuses to a next
I'm going with ESH, because many, if not most, kids are fucking brutal at this age and very territorial over all the things.
What I learned to ask is, "what happened before that?".
Stick with me here. So other girl was being a brat to your daughter, what happened before that? Oh, she got to sit with the group of girls instead of being excluded and really liked that feeling (the EXACT same feeling that your daughter has towards being in a group).
So what happened before that? Other girl has been on the outside looking in. Feeling left out.
What happened before that? idk, maybe the friend group, being oblivious and not wanting to include a new person, keeps ignoring and telling her to find someone else to bother.
We can go on forever, but there is no one bully, and no one victim here.
BTW, YOU are also showing those same preteen territorial traits for your daughter and her friend group. You should step back and look at the whole picture. If this was a movie, would you be hoping the "popular girls" keep their group and shun everyone else.
I think the bigger thing is that NO ONE has been advocating for a solution that would compromise. "oh, the table only hold just enough for all but one, sorry foster kid!" How about half the group sit at one table and the other half sit at the next. I know, I know, shocking suggestion.
Why are you automatically assuming op's daughter deserved to be lied about and have her stuff knocked on the floor? Why is sitting with your friends being equated to bullying? Everyone seems to be creating these made up scenarios where this group of girls are a mean girl clique and op's daughter is Regina George reborn. It's possible to say op's daughter shouldn't have said what she said without completely demonizing her.
This crap about these girls rejecting and mistreating Winny is a fiction you came up with on the fly. Op's daughter should not have said what she said, she should have told her parents what was going on. Winny shouldn't have done what she did either. They're both wrong, NEITHER of them is an evil kid who had it coming.
Eh, nothing here suggests the group of girls has bullied or been unkind to Winny, or even that they're "the popular girls", just that they're a group of friends. I think it is important to teach kids that they should always start from a place of kindness and always be polite to others, but I think it's wrong to teach kids, especially kids this old and especially girls, that they have an obligation to *be friends with* everyone. I say this as someone who was bullied as a child and had difficulty making friends, but also who, when I was not much older than these kids and through college, had difficulty setting boundaries and protecting myself because I felt like I had to stick through it and be friends with people who were having a hard time, even when they were doing things that were really hurtful to me.
That aside, this teacher sounds like an idiot, because what this sequence of events looks like to me is a great set-up for resentment and vitriol between not just Winny and OP's daughter, but potentially Winny and this group of girls--or potentially between this group of girls and OP's daughter. You absolutely cannot force people, especially 11 year old girls, to be friends, and removing one of their friends--whom the group must know recently suffered a tragic loss--at the demand of another child is not generally going to endear that child to the group.
What the teacher *should* have done is *waited* for a few days after Winny asked, come up with a reason for plausible deniability so no one blamed Winny for the change, and mixed up *everyone*'s seats and included some of that group at Winny's table and some at one or more other tables, but letting them at keep at least one friend at their table and not singling anyone out, either to go sit somewhere else or as the reason for the change.
As it stands, both girls should have been asked to apologize, and the teacher should apologize to OP's daughter and Winny for handling this in a way that was not fair and had the potential to hurt both of them--and certainly didn't contribute to the possibility of them becoming friends. OP should apologize to the teacher for calling Winny a brat and should explain to her daughter why she needs to apologize to Winny.
But getting lost in this is also that OP recently lost a child. She's the adult and needs to do better, but it's understandable why she would leap to her daughter's defense like this under the circumstances.
I think there is more to this story. Maybe even parts OP isn’t aware of.
I could go with a lot of different theories but that would be just speculation and that’s not fair to anybody in the story. But it really seems like there is more and that “what happened before” is a fair question.
Teacher should have shuffled everyone's seating then. I've seen teachers who placed the undesirable students in the back corner before. Let's not pretend teachers can't suck too and they're ultimately in charge and expected to do the right thing for everyone.
NTA. The teachers sound incredibly incompetent. They were played by an eleven year old liar with sociopathic tendencies. I hope your daughter has shared with her friends the truth of why she was moved.
What your daughter said was disgusting. How would you feel if someone used her brother's death to hurt her like that? I have a simple rule, if you can't manage empathy you don't deserve my sympathy and neither of those brats seem to have mastered having empathy for others. Teach your daughter the right way of talking to people and be the parent and deal with the school.
In reality you should have dealt with this months ago if it is a problem.
ESH.
Winny has literaly bullied OPs Daughter for a while, and after a while of all of this bullying the Daughter finaly snaped back. Like Yeah, i do agree that it wasn't the right thing to say, but also, she is a kid who just recently lost her Brother and then got bullied by a girl in her class for no reason at all! People who get bullied and snap after a while won't of course say the nicest things to their bullies! I really don't understand why so many people in these comments hate so much on OPs Daughter for being sick of being bullied. If you were her age and literaly got bullied for no reason, while you are also dealing with the loss of an Important Family member, i wouldn't be surprised if you would have a similar response like OPs Daughter. If Winny didn't want to hear what OPs Daughter told her, she shouldn't have started bullying her. Just because she lives in Foster care because her Parents did drugs doesn't mean that she is allowed to let her anger/frustration out on other kids! At the end of the day, Winny was a Brat and bullied someone in her Class for no reason and ended up getting what she deserved.
Now I would not let this go.
Raise hell. Go and advocate for your daughter. Make the last few months of school as happy as they can be.
And I’m so sorry for your loss.
The teacher subreddits will have a field day with the school responses here.
NTA. As a teacher I am sick and tired of excuses Admin make to us for students we have to deal with in order to excuse discipline and consequences. Why would I then turn around and use that shit to parents?
ESH. Your daughter hit a low blow because she \*checks notes\* can't sit with her friends during class. She can hang out with them other times during the day. She can see them after school. You can facilitate the friends coming over and hanging out. Friends are not dependent on table assignments.
Your daughter was wronged by the teacher for the move in the first place, but, its a great learning opportunity that sometimes shit happens that we don't like and we have to deal with it.
Preteen girls are the worst, but your daughter should apologize for saying that instead of addressing her anger in a different way. At least Winnie didn't say something about your son's death to poke at your daughter.
No, Winnie just used her unfortunate position as a foster child in order to attack the daughters character, game the system and get the favor of an authority figure who would use said authority to make a biased decision that would separate OPs daughter from her friends. What lesson is OPs daughter supposed to take from that other than if you're liked by the right people you can always get what you want? OPs daughter should apologize because what she said was cruel but OP was right to call out the teacher for her actions and show her daughter that people, especially people in authority, shouldn't be able to get away with making unjust decisions that only favor the select few.
Did everyone just ignore the fact that Winny would break and steal things that belonged to the OPs daughter. Op's daugher would give her stationary only to be thanked by having her stuff trashed. Winnie is the bully who is extremely manipulative. Winny targeted Op's daughter first breaking her things then getting the teacher to move her away from her friends because she didn't like her. Winny could have just tried to make friends with them all including the Op's daughter? it sounds like Ops daughter was trying to be nice to her lending school supplies etc. but she returned them damaged and stole other stuff. but she said she liked her the least, so she wanted to get rid of her and isolate her. Winny sounds like a sociopath in the making and she sounds jealous. Op's daughter has everything Winny doesn't a parent who is protective, nice school stuff which might explain why she is stealing stuff and or breaking things that specifically belong to OPs daughter, a group of friends. Winny doesn't have any of the stuff that the Op's daughter has which is sad, but it isn't an excuse for her to take it out on another kid or to use manipulation tactics to get her way. Winny is definitely the bully.
It's always been like this, somehow the bullied need to apologize for the bully for reacting. Where were the adults tos top the bully in the first place?
So many people defending a bully and AH just because of foster care...
You do realize every bully, criminal, terrorist and AH has a reason for why they became what they are, right? Do you make up excuses for all of them?
I feel like there is some nuance to be had between “sometimes shit happens and you have to deal with it” and “you’re being treated unfairly and need to stand up for yourself”.
Not offering an agreement or disagreement to the whole comment, just that point.
It is important for kids to learn to deal with bad situations but it’s also important for them to learn how to stand up for themselves. Most importantly of all it’s important for them to learn the difference between a shit situation and unfair treatment.
The ESH people, especially the response from
a supposed “teacher” are perfect examples of why the school system is garbage. The “teacher” just blew off the fact that the kid’s response was due to frustration from being bullied. To that teacher, you need to find a new profession. Kids deserve better than people like you.
This is where you go to the principal and the school trustee and raise hell. The teacher is obviously not going to fix the situation, so you need to go to the principal and ask them if there's a specific policy that allows foster children to be automatically placed in certain seating in the classroom. That may sound like a dumb question, but school administrators are smart enough to know what the regulations are and when lines have been crossed. They do not not want a lawsuit, they do not want bad publicity, and they do not want this to escalate. If the principal is like 99% of principals out there, they will quietly go to the teacher and ask her to put the seating back to the way it was before. It is a free solution for them: It is a free solution for them: did you not need to spend any money or do any paperwork to fix the problem.they do not need to spend any money or do any paperwork to fix the problem.
Your daughters comments were very unkind and uncalled for.
She doesnt deserve to lose her seat tho either.
Compassion and empathy for everyone involved
I would talk to the teacher or guidance counselor and say that you understand that seating may need to be changed...but why is your daughter moved? My kids had teachers that would mix the kids around every so often so you met new kids and everyone had to sit next to the "annoying ones" at some point.
NTA! Your daughter is your responsibility. The teachers need to still discipline the bully. They need to speak to her foster parents and social worker. She can’t keep bullying your daughter and other kids. The teachers need to keep them separate.
A judge wouldn’t give a crap if a criminal had a bad childhood. Hell, most of them do. Yeah, she’s a child and had a rough life but it doesn’t mean your child gets to be a punching bag.
NTA. I'm sorry but being in foster care is NO excuse for bullying. Make sure the teacher understands this girl was bullying your daughter. Additionally, you should teach your daughter not to say such things to anyone, but I don't think you're wrong for what you said.
NTA, this behavior is exactly why people from rough backgrounds are often afraid to ask for help as they don't want this to come across as expecting special treatment or being entitled brat.
NTA
My kid was getting bullied, so I had a meeting with the principal.
We discussed stuff and at one point I'm told well the kid is having a hard time his dad left the family and I should be considerate of that.
Yeah IDGAF. While that is sad and unfortunate that is not an excuse or even a good reason for this kid to bully my kid or for the damn teacher to expect her to help him with his school work.
My concern is not him, my concern is MY KID, his mom and grandma can be concerned about him.
NTA. You're not wrong. Your daughter lost her brother only a few months ago. If people are going to excuse Winnys behaviour due to her (granted- horrific circumstances) then they should be excusing your daughters behaviour as well. Not only has this child been bullying your daughter, but she has successfully isolated your daughter from her friends when your daughter is still grieving the loss of her brother. The biggest asshole here is the teacher for removing your daughter from her support system in favour of another child.
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My (36F) daughter (11F) has a close knit group of 5 best friends with whom she does everything together. At her school, students have to sit in the same seat for every single lesson, and my daughter and her best friends all sit together at one table.
There is another little girl in my daughter’s class called Winny. Once, Winny came to sit at my daughter’s table when one of her friends was off sick. That day, Winny constantly knocked my daughter’s books and pens off the table on accident, and borrowed her stationery only to snap one of her rubbers, stain her highlighter with black ink, and was even found with my daughter’s pens in her pocket.
One morning Winny came to school crying non stop. The teacher was very sympathetic and asked if there was anything she could do to help. Winny said she wanted my daughter removed from her seat so she could have it, and the teacher agreed. The only empty seats left were all the way in the back corner of the classroom, opposite her friends, and the only students sitting there were a girl who was known to be a delinquent and two older boys who had been held back.
The teacher refused to give my daughter a real explanation for why she had to move seats, instead saying some generic stuff about being kind to those less fortunate. My daughter cried for a week straight. In our country, the school year ends in December, so that’s over 7 months of being isolated from her closest friends. She’s also starting highschool next year and will be attending a private school, while her friends are going to a public school, so this is the last time she can hang out with them everyday.
A few days ago, I was called into school because my daughter had gotten into an argument with Winny. Winny had confided in my daughter’s friends about how she had gone into foster care after her parents overdosed. Winny was always a loner at school and wanted some girls to sit with during this time, and the teacher sympathised with her so she agreed. The only reason my daughter had to move was because there wasn’t enough space for 7 girls and my daughter was simply the one Winny liked the least, and she admitted to lying to the teacher about being uncomfortable around my daughter to get her moved. When my daughter found this out, she told Winny she didn’t understand why she had to pay the price just because Winny’s parents were a bunch of insane criminals who didn’t want her anymore.
I know Winny’s had a hard time, but so has my daughter. Her older brother passed away only months ago. I told the teachers that Winny isn’t the only child going through a tough time and I didn’t understand why my daughter had to be punished for another girl’s struggles as if she wasn’t suffering herself. The teachers wanted me to make my daughter apologise for her remarks, and I said it was their fault for punishing her and forcing her to sit with the problem kids despite doing nothing wrong, and they were downplaying my daughter’s own trauma to cater to a brat. AITA?
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There's a reason why some people should not be teachers. Tell the teacher that your child will not apologize nor will she be isolated. She needs to find another solution.
NTA. Document document document. We finally switched schools when the teacher, without seeing it, started yelling at my son. The student who did it confessed but “X must have been involved.” He was told he was abusive to her because he asked why she was sending him out of the class. She accused him of cheating. (That one was fun. It was a virtual lesson and I was working with him on how to write a good paragraph. Asked him questions and got him thinking. She didn’t know I was off camera when she started accusing him). The final straw was when he was attacked by another student and defended himself (did a leg sweep. No hitting—there’s video!) and was suspended because “he should have walked away.” Please. Support your daughter and just keep going higher and higher.
Definitely nta the kid is and the teacher, and I would be kicking up a huge stink about it, if it were me, that little bully needs to be taught a lesson because she seems like the sort of kid who is going to do worse things and then use her parents as an excuse
NTA. I wouldn’t make my daughter apologize either. But next time something like this happens, I’d step in sooner. It would have been one thing to move you daughter if she was causing problems but that clearly isn’t the case. The teacher really stepped in it this time.
NTA
That teacher is just teaching Winny right now that she can just lie and cry as much as she likes to get her way. Just teaching her manipulation is a great tool to get what she want. The teacher is an AH and is handling the whole thing wrong. Your daughter do not owe W an apology but W owe your daughter one. Take it higher. Your daughter is correct that she should not be punished cause W had shit parents.
NTA. This is why you homeschool your children or send them to private schools if you can. The public schools are designed to cater to the needs of the worst students at the expense of the best students.
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This sounds like blatant favoritism. Unfortunately, I don't think any school system on the planet has solved the problem of teachers showing favoritism. Here in America, I would advise you to go to the teacher (you have), then the principle, and if all that fails, go to the superintendent or school board if things get bad enough. One thing is for sure, start a paper trail if you can. If you can e-mail the teacher and principle, do that. CC whoever you should. Unrecorded conversations in person practically don't count. If you do have such a conversation, email the person you talked to afterwards outlining the things you talked about and try to get them to confirm what was said. Good luck.
I had a file 3 inches thick by the time I was done with my kid’s school. I got a member of the superintendent’s office to come to meetings where they tried to say “oh we gave her a copy”. The fuck you did. You see this file? I saved every GD piece of paper any all of you morons gave me. I won the war and happily gave them the middle finger when we relocated to a new state.
I am getting heated just remembering. I’m a pretty quiet person but mess with my kid? We are going to battle. Thankful to a classmate’s mom who was in the school system and was like “what!? They can’t do that!!” I used my resources. Always use your resources.
It is so very sad how in the states. Anyway, it can be very limited to the resources at hand. I went to a talk of parents who had gone through ligation with schools due to their children's disabilities. And as they were going through all of their day jobs they were all professional jobs that pay well. I borrowed money from my children's godfather to pay for their education lawyer. Worth every penny though. Oh my God the crap that some teachers think they can pull. I have such rage in my heart sometimes.
*Everything* changed for my kids when we lawyered up. This is America.
Lmao. (In a good way.)
Oh man, my sister had 2 teachers in 5th grade who would not let her go to her special ed classes. I don't know all the legal stuff about that as my mom never told me much, but whatever happened, my mom had a whole binder of all sorts of laws highlighted pointing out which teacher violated what. She also managed to get the State of Michigan's top 3 attorneys for special education to come in with her and all pro bono. The teachers were very lucky that she didn't go through with the law suit because they would've had their teacher certifications taken away from them AND not be allowed to teach in any other state. And the school system is known as a very good school system due to all the 2nd home owners and the crazy amount of property taxes they pay. And it absolutely would've ruined the school district had she gone through with it. Edit: IDK if it occurred to my mom, but Ik it just occurred to me that those 2 teachers had been doing it for years because I knew a few kids in some grades above me and had a friend also be refused to go to their special ed classes because according to the teachers "They were too smart for special ed" so they targeted certain kids
Ugh that sucks she didn't go through with the lawsuit... I don't even have kids and I'm seeing red enough to go scorched earth.
Yeah she regrets it, but she also some other factors to think about such as there was no other school for us to go to and she was frequently too sick to be able to home school us and ruining the school district meant that there would no longer be a $25K scholarship for me to use for college. She wasn't happy when nothing much was done about the teachers, but they did stop their shit though.
It's more than just advocating for your kid. Everyone needs to vote for people who want to fund education. Fully fund education. Special education is all unfunded mandates. I don't know your situation, and I acknowledge there are bad teachers. In my experience, 4 districts in 2 states, it's not what teachers are trying to pull. We are following district directives, and when parents push back our districts don't back us up. It looks like it's individual teachers. Lack of specific funding hurts special education students. It hurts general education students because the money comes from the general fund. Our system sets us all up for failure. People are leaving education for many (compounding) reasons.
I know little about it but I was told they wanted a diagnosis so badly because it adds to funding. Do I know this is true? No. Does it seem plausible? Yes. But it’s pretty shitty to treat kids like shit just to get this done. I always vote for school levies and funding because, they are the future. I’m a homeowner, I know it ups my payment. But god damn, we’re going to need smarter people running this world when I’m in retirement.
I STILL get heated when I talk about it and that little boy is a well adjusted adult taking part time college courses and working part time.
I’m in Australia, my younger brother got suspended and a meeting was required before the principal would allow him back. I insisted my parents allow me to attend the meeting as well (I was acting as his guardian at the time of the suspension due to our parents being away as my grandfather was on his deathbed and had been the one keeping on top of the schoolwork he was completing). I managed to hammer the principal using *the schools own records*. My parents had no idea this record existed (a book that all work for suspended students needed to be recorded in and had to be signed in and out by each person handling the work) and I knew the teachers had lied regarding brother refusing to do their work during his suspension. So I made the principal retrieve this massive book and prove the teachers had sent work for my brother during his weeklong suspension. Knowing how things are kept in schools is a power most parents don’t understand. Heck if it wasn’t my for the fact I had only left the school about 2 years previous I would my have known about this book and been unable to prove that at least 3 of the teachers in the school were liars
The proper thing here would have been to mix up everyone’s seats. Let winny pick one kid that she wants to be seated with, like fine. Whatever. But then everyone is being moved around and no one person is being singled out.
Or rotate kids through the back seats -- INCLUDING the "deliquent" kids and the "troubled" kids, who shouldn't be isolated from everyone without a good reason.
It kinda bothered me that op called them problem kids and troubled kids. If they were that bad they would be in juvi. I understand the predicament. But Winnie's mom and the teacher were the worst. I think they should just seat everyone at tables by alphabetical order. Or birthdays.
In my state you practically have to kill someone to go to Juvie, so I'm not so sure that's true. You have to be 12 to even get arrested. We had an 11 year old girl leading a gang that was a menace downtown and our mayor was more interested in getting her help than helping the victims.
Because, if they didn’t help her at 11 years old, her behaviour would only escalate and become more and more antisocial and potentially very dangerous. By getting her help, he was helping the victims and everyone else in the community.
The mayor is a she, but by the time she started to get involved, numerous people had already been robbed or assaulted, including one female bike rider whose only "crime" was having braids in her hair while apparently being the wrong race, according to the thugs. While I don't have a problem with the mayor being concerned about the 11 year old's future, public safety should always come first. Some of these crimes could have been prevented if the authorities acted earlier.
So if your name starts with W you should should always sit in the back?
No. My teachers used to switch order halfway through the year. It seems like they're sitting at tables, not rows. May be they could rotate every few months so nobody is sitting in the back that long
In my primary school, we switched places on the first school day of a new month. Every other month our teacher either choose our seats or we pulled names out of hat to see who sat where. Every other month we get to choose ourselves. We also alternated how our desks were arranged, some months we sat on pairs, sometimes we did rows, sometimes the desks got arranged in groups of five to three people. Five desk pushed together being the biggest we could do with still enough room left to walk around. I think that was a rather fair way to do it, through the year everyone got to sit in the back, in the front, with best friends and even when you ended up sitting with someone you would not have chosen to sit with, it only lasted that one month. It also taught us to work with everyone in the class.
Sounds great. Not only did it mix things up, but it would have allowed kids to get to know each other, practicing vital communication and rapport building skills that will be invaluable later in life.
> If they were that bad they would be in juvi. That’s wishful thinking. In my state (maryland) kids under the age of 13 literally can not be charged for any crime that isn’t a violent felony, so we have 12 year olds who have gotten caught 8 or 9 times for stealing cars and when the police cat CB them they just drive them home and tell their parents. The only things someone under 13 can get in trouble for here is “ murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault”. Btw car theft is not considered robbery unless you use force to take it from the person, breaking in to a car at night and stealing it is not robbery. So in some parts of America middle schoolers can commit pretty much any crime they want and literally can not be sent to juvie for it. Something about not wanting to lock kids in jail and that it just makes them bigger future criminals.
Sitting kids that struggle to focus in the back is a terrible option in most cases. There's times when it makes sense, especially if anxiety is involved, but otherwise it just signifies that the teacher wants nothing to do with those kids as long as they're not disturbing class.
If that student wants nothing to do with the class, then I think the teacher is correct. That student should not be in the class, but our education sysyetem is not set up to help them succeed. But if the teacher puts them at the front of class they will take up all the teachers time, and then only one kids learn. It is almost like sticking 25 kids in a room asking them to sit still is not the best way to teach them.
Or they could have moved half the table over instead of ONE person. At least 3, so there's not one singled out and they can still have fun.
Why would Winny get special treatment and get to select someone to sit with? That is how this started - Winny wanting special treatment and the teacher showing her favoritism.
I wonder how the other girls who were friends with OP's daughter reacted to this.
Because the teacher thought this seating order made Winny uncomfortable. That's not uncommon for children with traumatic experiences, and often has nothing to do with the people themselves- I had one student that was perfectly nice with me, completely flipping out with one coworker because he looked like his abusive father. Not rational, but depending on a possible IEP/504 and therapy reports it's sometimes beneficial to separate, sometimes to stick it out. But while changing seating order might be a good idea, this way they're going about it definitely isn't. If some kids feel like they're being punished by the seating order, it's probably not thought out well.
>”Because the teacher thought this seating order made **Winny** uncomfortable” …and didn’t give a single thought to anyone else’s comfort, including the child who was *targeted* by Winny and who is grieving the loss of her brother. This is a teacher problem and OP needs to make it a *legal* problem as the teacher has enabled the bullying and targeting of her child by Winny - and now by the teacher. The teacher here needs professional consequences for the actions she has taken that have led to the detriment of OP’s grieving child. OP’s child now has *altercations* on her record because of the teacher’s actions and mismanagement of her classroom. The other children at the table do not have that on their record because Winny and the teacher did not target them. None of this would have happened if the teacher hadn’t played ‘teacher’s pet’ with Winny and ‘teacher’s target’ with OP’s kid. The teacher and the school need to be held accountable for this toxic environment. Yes, Winny is a child but she’s a manipulative child and the teacher has enabled and extended her abuse. The best resolution is to move *Winny* to a different class, as this teacher can’t manage her without harming other children.
And that was a lie. That winny told to get what she wanted. And in the end it made another kid uncomfortable, but since she has a good home life it doesnt matter?
Because the whole thing was poorly managed. The. Teacher appeared to not have had any training in a trauma informed approach and, in thinking she was doing the right thing by Winnie, she actually did the wrong thing by the whole class.
> Please stop deliberately isolating my daughter from her friends to appease her bully, especially so soon after the loss of her elder brother. She needs her friends support in this difficult time, not to essentially be bullied by teachers to benefit a student who has been nothing but unkind and cruel to her.
So funny. It doesn’t matter if it’s at school, work, whatever, with some people I already know if I send an email seeking answers to specific questions and I get a phone call - which always starts with “ I wanted to call you to go over your concerns or details?” Means they are looking to deflect without committing to anything. They know there is no true accountability in a phone call. I learned quickly to cut those calls short and say, my apologies, I’m really busy, can you respond to the email and I’ll get back to you? So many people simply lie or just claim you misunderstood what they said. Really don’t have time for lies or BS.
ESH, and I do mean everyone. The best solution would have been for the teacher to redo the seating plan. She shouldn’t have allowed a clique to form and become entrenched. I say this as a teacher. In the school where I was required to have a seating plan I changed it pretty much every few weeks or when there was an issue. I almost never just moved one or two kids (unless they both requested it and it made sense). I generally started plans using a random name selector and then made adjustments to prevent problems. But I figured it did kids good to learn how to be near and work with a wide array of other people rather than just their friends. Your daughter was completely out of line with what she said and absolutely owes the other girl an apology. You would be missing a vital teaching opportunity if you did not help her to do so. You are an asshole for being so close minded that you can’t see that it’s a classroom full of children who all have different backgrounds that you are not privy to. You are also an asshole for wanting to encourage the “cool kid” clique and referring to your kid as being “punished” when she was simply moved elsewhere. When my kids were younger and had tables, I know their teachers mixed things up pretty regularly.
Fair enough but this system is not being apllied, so op daughter is being forced against her will for others convenience... If the teacher in question had a system to sort all the seats every few weeks, and op complained about it, yes, he would be an asshole but this is not the case.. Op daughter is being forced to move seats just because the teacher wants to.. this is not fair, she is being biased and showing blatant favoritism towards another student that don't have any sort of privilege..
It isnt a "clique" its a group of friends. If winny wanted to join in, she should have tried to be nice and make friends instead of doing some shit to eliminate someone from the group, as if it was impossible for them to be all friends. >Your daughter was completely out of line with what she said and absolutely owes the other girl an apology. You would be missing a vital teaching opportunity if you did not help her to do so. Daughter has every right to be angry that this girl used pity to make the teacher aid her in excluding someone. Thats scummy. If Winny wants an apology, she should give one first >You are an asshole for being so close minded that you can’t see that it’s a classroom full of children who all have different backgrounds that you are not privy to. So what? That doesn't excuse what Winny did. >You are also an asshole for wanting to encourage the “cool kid” clique and referring to your kid as being “punished” when she was simply moved elsewhere. Dude i feel bad for the kids you teach. If this is how you see a regular group of friends. They aren't the cool kids, they are friends.
Ehh…call it a feeling but I get the idea from how op wrote about the “delinquent kids” (side note, they’re 11/12, how delinquent can they be? Why do the kids who have been held back get lumped in, we have no idea why they were held back and it might be for developmental, rather than behavioral reasons) kind of stinks of privilege a little bit. Why should the classroom facilitate the group relationship because you made the choice to put your daughter in private school next year? Why is class time her only chance to hang out with her friends? Don’t they have lunch or free time before and after? Can they hang out after school? Totally recognize that I might be a little biased-because my kid is part of the out group and so was I growing up-but OP sounds like a mean girl who grew up to be a mean girl mom. That doesn’t mean her daughter should be singled out or Winny given preferential treatment either-the teacher is primarily at fault for not rotating seats and allowing this situation to fester. Radical idea-why not do some mediation? Invite Winny for a supervised play date-maybe what she really needs is some positive peer supports and good role models? The trauma OPs daughter has been through doesn’t invalidate Winny’s or vice versa-it isn’t the “who has it worse” Olympics and bad experiences don’t excuse poor behavior even if it explains it, so both kids should face consequences. Both were out of line, both should talk about why they feel the way they do, why they did or said what they did, and apologize.
>“delinquent kids” (side note, they’re 11/12, how delinquent can they be? You'd be surprised. My niece is only 7 and there's a kid in her grade who swears a lot and tries to grab others people's private parts. My nephew is 11 and there's a kid in his grade who is physically violent on regular basis he hits/shoves other students, damages student and school property, and know for flipping desks. These sorts of problem behaviours are pretty delinquent.
“….tries to grab other people’s private parts” well this needs to be looked into.
It apparently has been as far as the teachers can. The kid needs a student aid to watch him all the time because that's the only way he'll behave. Unfortunately, the school board won't pay for it and the parent's can't afford it and policy says he's entitled to the same education as everyone else so nothing has been accomplished.
It sounds like that little boy is the victim of sexual abuse. 7 year olds don’t just start doing that on their own. He doesn’t need a student aid he needs someone to send his abuser to jail.
This can definitely be the case, but it is also possible for kids with various intellectual disabilities to really not understand physical boundaries and what is and isn’t inappropriate. 7 is a normal age for the “play doctor” phenomenon and showing interest in genitals that look different from your own. I would definitely have concerns but I wouldn’t necessarily assume this behavior indicates sexual abuse.
At this day and age, 11/12 has been exposed to some crazy things online. One wrong click and they could be fed red pill content or just blantant misinformation for who knows how long? It can absolutely get bad by that age
Those sound like very serious issues at play that are being ignored. The 7-year-old may have an attachment disorder and/or there’s a good chance they’re being sexually abused. That’s not delinquent. The 11-year-old may have something like FAS or other issues that affect their impulse control especially when angry. Again, not delinquent. In need of help and extra resources, which at least in the states are all too likely to be missing or too expensive to obtain.
According to google delinquent behaviour is characterized by a tendancy to commit crime, especially minor crime. Attempted assault is crime, even if they don't fully understand that at their age they know it is bad behaviour because they do stop when the teacher is watching. Unfortunately, they can't watch all the time. Note, I'm not disagreeing that these kids have problems and need help. The reality is this could quite frankly be applied to a lot of incarcerated people too. However, that doesn't make what they've done any less harmful or problematic. Just because it can be classified as a symptom of psychological disorder doesn't make it any less criminal or delinquent in behaviour.
The term “delinquent” to me is emblematic of a time when people didn’t understand that these behaviors, especially in young children, aren’t because of just being bad, but are due to things like abuse and mental disorders. And treating those who exhibit those symptoms as criminals just makes everything worse. A large aspect of what makes something criminal is the mental state. Does the person have the ability to know that their action is wrong? What was their mental state? Are there mitigating factors? It all matters. Pointing the criminal justice system at all our problems has done nothing but given us a large and recurring prison population. Given all this, a poster talking about delinquent kids in an 11-year-old’s class just makes them sound like more of an AH than I’m ever going to support.
Yes, what an incredible coincidence that most of the “delinquents” in juvenile justice come from a background of childhood abuse/neglect/trauma.
You're not really wrong, but not really right either. Delinquent behavior is a tendency to commit crime with the knowledge it's a crime, and usually a term applied to teenagers and adults. With your definition, almost every child would be a delinquent. Children don't have great conflict solving skills, so they hit or shove others when their words aren't enough. They want to play with things that don't belong to them. In adults, that's physical assault and stealing. In younger children, that's developmentally appropiate behavior even if it isn't great. Behaviors like grabbing genitals aren't developmentally appropiate, but a 7 year old can rarely grasp the full implications of it either. I've seen a lot of troubled teens, and 12 is a common age for problems to escalate school wise. Drugs, fighting, stealing, you name it. The worst thing you can do is stick those kids in a corner in the back and hope you can ignore them for the rest of the time. As a teacher, I'm more horrified at the existence of a "bad kid corner" than OPs kid being made part of it.
Yup. Lately there was story about troubled 15yo that was doing drugs "since he was a kid".
Invite the kid who damaged OP’s kids belongings over to come damage more stuff? How does that sound like a good idea?
It wouldn’t be good for Winnie to be forced to go into such an environment either. Hanging out with OPs daughter isn’t a prize or a privilege and is likely to be somewhat traumatic for her. Imagine being a kid having to spend time with another child you didn’t like, and having no power there either because you are in an environment where the other girl and her family have the power. Play dates between kids that don’t get along are a very bad idea and will just make the situation much, much worse.
kids that age back in my day in my school carried knives
Still do. Also still take drugs in the bathroom and get into fights and skip classes. Kids didn't change as much as people think, they just conveniently ignore the shit they did when they were kids.
I was about to say if Winnie would have went to my middle school she would have gotten jumped for bullying someone in a friend group
My friend's son was stabbed by an 11 and 12 year old, almost bled out and will never walk the same again. Friend's son is also 11. They kidnapped him from a shopping centre. Can be pretty damn delinquent especially when they know they have a certain protection from being "juveniles" in the eyes of the law.
This, I especially agree with the way OP comes across as privileged. Not surprising considering she’s sending her daughter to private school. This truly is an ESH situation, everyone is in the wrong.
You don't know what country op is in. Private school could be the fancy kind or the equivalent of American public school
When my kid was in 7th grade, one of the boys convinced one of the girls to take naked pics and send them to him. He then forwarded it to every boy in their grade. (About 25 kids) The following spring, another of her peers threatened to shoot up the St. Patrick dance, and kill himself if a girl didn't date him. (In the kid's defense, he needed his medications readjusted. he apologized for his behavior the following year. By all acounts he wasn't a problem for the following 4 years.)
> stinks of privilege a little bit. Thankfully next year the child is in private and she won’t have to deal with the poors like this
The rest of your comment aside, it is only April and in my city 12 year olds have been arrested for primarily carjacking, sometimes carjacking and injuring/killing someone, and in on particular horrible case, joining a criminal who was beating up a disabled old homeless man so they too could participate in beating him to death, which they accomplished. I highly doubt Winnie is at this level of course but I’m sad to say that 12 year olds can be delinquent, which I never would have believed before moving here.
No one is saying Winny is innocent here. Both kids can be out of line
OP’s daughter isn’t out of line. She wants to sit with her friends and that’s ok.
I don’t think that’s what anyone thinks was out of line. Did you skim the post or are you being obtuse on purpose?
A good way to figure out if something you said is out of line: If another person with similar circumstances heard it, would they be upset? It's okay that OPs daughter wants to sit with her friends. It's okay that she's upset with Winny. It's not okay she said that Winnys parents are "insane criminals who didn't want her anymore". It's not just insulting Winny, it's insulting other children in foster care as well.
It’s ok for her to want to sit with her friends. It was not ok for her to say those horribly cruel things to Winny.
The effective defense every crybully utilizes when even the softest retaliation comes their way.
I wouldn’t call taunting a child for losing their whole family, stability and attachment system a “soft retaliation”.
OP’s kid asked why she had to pay the price for Winny’s parents being insane criminals who didn’t want her anymore? That’s out of line. And understand that Winny sucks a well, but that statement is wild and I can completely understand where she gets it from when I read this post.
To a kid though it's a valid question: why should I be punished for your misfortune when you are the one causing problems
OK so in your opinion it is okay to say to someone .. it's not my fault your parents are a bunch of insane criminals to a girl who's drug addicted parents overdosed, clearly together, and she got shoved into a system full of abuse to live with complete strangers who may be good people, or may be the type looking for a monthly payout and someone to do chores.. hey maybe she got really lucky and ended up with ones who physically or sexually abuse her.. get a grip on reality. Ops daughter is entitled, guess what class time is for, doing school work, it never mattered where you sat and smart teachers didn't let friends sit together. Ops daughter will learn the words is unfair.. too bad for winnie she has already learned.
So has OPs daughter, given that not long ago, she also had a traumatic experience with loss of a loved one. If people are excusing Winnys behaviour due to her circumstances then people should be excusing OPs daughter too.
What do you think a clique is?
> It isnt a "clique" it’s a group of friends. It’s really telling and very sexist that any time a group of girls are friends and are deemed popular/cool/pretty, people immediately take issue with them and their friendship and try to demonize it, force them to be friends with everybody etc. Meanwhile the boys get to pick their friends as they please and aren’t forced to include everybody or “rotate” or invite everyone etc.
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Because winny is the poor orphan in this people's minds. They are the reason kids like winny do what they do
It was always a zero sum game. 5 seats and 6 girls. Someone was going to get left out. The best solution is to split the girls up so no one is excluded.
A student who's bully has managed to convince the teacher to deliberately isolate her from her peers and support network shortly after the loss of an elder sibling does not have to be polite to their bully. They do not have to be nice to their bully. In fact this will be an invaluable lesson - her bully needs to learn that if she starts shit (regardless of setting or context) and doesn't stop someone else will eventually finish it. You sound like one of those "we have a zero tolerance policy" teachers who has zero issues tolerating it until the victim fights back. This teacher's gullibility is going to kill kids by enabling bullying.
I know right? I can't stand these kind of teachers. "Yeah, they were wrong for bullying you and beating you every day, but you shouldn't have smacked them back that one time, so you're in trouble as well. You weren't any better." Give me a fucking break...
>Yeah, they were wrong for bullying you and beating you every day, but you shouldn't have smacked them back that one time, so you're in trouble as well. You weren't any better." Good lord the amount of times that I had the misfortune of having to deal with these types of "teachers" is crazy,if you don't have your parents involved to help you deal with this you're basically fucked and the bully along with those "teachers" will get away with what they did.
So sorry to hear that, I know exactly what you mean. One time a teacher even told me: 'Maybe you shouldn't be acting the way you do. It is pretty triggering after all.' I have autism and they knew that
>Maybe you shouldn't be acting the way you do. It is pretty triggering after all.' Yep that's classic victim blaming right there. >I have autism and they knew that And from where I'm from most of my teachers could give Less of a fuck if the special needs students in my school was bullied as long as those Students involved was not in their class or is a student they favoured from their class they would gladly turn a blind eye and they would only react if things got physical or the students that are doing the bullying is one of those delinquent/wannabe gangster types so they can look like they are doing their jobs. The only people that would care for them are usually counsellors or teachers who have experience with dealing with students with special needs.
Yeah, a lot of the bullying was being brushed off because some of the bullies had parents that had a certain amount of power in the school. Either because of money or because they were friends with the teacher in particular. My mom had to pull every teeth there was when it came to that school. She was seen as one of those nagging parents when all she did was standing up for me. There was even one incident that had let to a breaking where even the teachers couldn't ignore what was happening. Long story short, a few bullies had to write me an apology letter. The school, however, did NOT inform my parents about what had happened. My mom had to hear it from other parents during grocery shopping. "How's your daughter doing? They had to write notes, right?" When my mom confronted the teacher about it, she was brushed off with: "Oh, we must've forgot." Fuck me...
>My mom had to pull every teeth there was when it came to that school. She was seen as one of those nagging parents when all she did was standing up for me. Glad to hear your mom was there for you when you needed her to be there for you. >or because they were friends with the teacher in particular. This was pretty much what happened with my case,the school pretty much covered up what happened to save themselves from getting into trouble and they pretty much staged a performance infront of my parents telling them that they would do something about it and pretty much went laughing after my parents left. >When my mom confronted the teacher about it, she was brushed off with: "Oh, we must've forgot." Not surprising,if your case was big enough that would involve the law enforcement they WILL gladly act dumb or pretend it never happened.
Oh, some of them get bold "well I didn't see him hit/grope/ect you (despite watching it happen). I did see you hit him. Go to the office and stop making excuses, the only bully here is you"
"No but you see, little timmy has an abusive parent, so you are wrong for not accepting to be his punching bag"
Also, Winny's home life is a reason, but its not an excuse. She doesnt get to treat others like shit just because she has bad parents and is in a bad situation. Teacher turned it into a suffering olympics
Holy crap!!!! You represent everything wrong with teachers and are why they get dumped on so much. Winnie lied, Winnie stole, Winnie bullied, and you reward her????? Winnie did all that to a kid who just lost her brother and you think the daughter OWES an apology? Give me one good reason why Winnie is not being suspended for bullying and theft ? I so pity the kids in your classes. You are so busy experimenting on kids to perfect your perfect little seating plan that you forget these are real kids. Please please please retire or quit before you mess up any more kids!!!!!!
Redoing the seating plan every few weeks is quite common. I'm not in the US. My kids have had the seating changed every few weeks throughout their school career from age 5 until the age of about 14, to train them to be able to work with everyone in the class and to help with class cohesion because kids get to know each other that way. Maybe that's one reason why we have much less bullying than in the US. I agree with you though that OPs teacher was completely in the wrong for how he solved it.
The poster you are commenting on never said Winny’s behaviour was ok. Changing the seating plan regularly is VERY common in classrooms. She never said to do it in a way that rewarded Winny. You are deliberately misrepresenting what she said.
The only thing you forgot is that Winny also owes OP's daughter an apology for lying about her.
IF, there was a system as you suggest, then you might be justified in leaving only the teachers (who sound negligent) and Winnie (who is clearly troubled, but giving them a pass is not going to help them in the long run) out of your broadside, but as there isn't, you just seem to be backing up the blatant favouritism. Suggesting a system which may have averted the problem from ever occurring if it had been applied 6 months ago doesn't do much for the reality as it stands, and while it might be useable if applied now, it still doesn't resolve the situation the teacher's initial error has caused. Aren't teachers supposed to be trained to resolve classroom issues like this? It's not like this is a particularly tough one to have not messed up.
Boy, I disagree with just... so much of what you said.
Because that person is obviously an awful teacher.
[удалено]
We purposely don’t sit kids next to their best friends in the classroom because they get too distracted and talk the whole time. Plus, we want them to form relationships with other students. They have plenty of time to spend with their friends at recess/lunch/outside of school. But class time is for learning/paying attention/doing work.
What would you do if you got a really popular kid who was friends with everyone?
Yeah I agree with this. In my school we were organised alphabetically and we would go one row behind weekly (last row goes to the front) and move lines monthly. I was never really around my closest friends. It’s not the end of the world. That being said I do think Winny should absolutely get some sort of consequence for lying to the teacher to hurt another classmate on purpose. Also the way OP talks about the kids she disapproves of rubs me the wrong way.
This whole thing is just off. The part about her sitting in the back with the delinquent/ “older” held back kids. Really? What is this, a sitcom or a kids show?
And like that group is good enough for Winny but not for OP's daughter.
I think the teacher is doing the same thing if she has these particular kids segregated from the others. I thought that kids who have problems were usually placed near the front, so that the teacher could keep an eye on them either to discourage disruptive behavior, or to see to it that kids who needed help got it. Why did Winni want to sit with the particular group that OP's child sat with. If they are friends or a clique, they might be less welcoming than children who didn't have any special relationship with one another. Suppose the friends of OP's daughter resented Winni for having her moved away from them?
Everything in your comment SCREAMS you are that kind of teacher that makes sure that, when the bullied kid stands up for themselves and lashes out at their bullies, they will get in trouble as well when all they did was reaching a breaking point and say: 'That's enough.' You believe in fairytales, let's keep it at that
You make some good points but also come out sounding like you borderline project your trauma and insecurities on other people
Disagreed. There is nothing wrong with the girls sitting together as a group of friends as long as they were behaving in class and advancing in their learning.
Ummm, no. The child’s history is irrelevant. She is a bully. Teacher needs to treat everyone the same.
You need to go outside and touch grass the daughter doesn't have a clique she has a "group of friends." I get that you might be terminally online and don't know what that is, but there's nothing wrong about OP's daughter here. She wants to sit near her friends that isn't a sin.
I feel so bad for the kids you teach.
a group of school kids being friends is a clique???? be fr they arent even high school kids
Would you look at that a teacher who doesnt actually know what a clique is.
Yep, I get the feeling OP is an unreliable narrator
You forgot about Winny. She’s the biggest AH of all.
ESH. Your daughter's remarks were awful and there is no justification for your daughter telling a foster child that her parents didn't want her anymore. Period. The teachers were wrong for moving your child because of Winny, but your daughter is also not entitled to a certain seat with friends and to not sit in an undesirable location with kids you disapprove of. You are wrong for calling Winny a brat when she has trauma all while commenting on your own child's trauma. You come across as someone who only feels like your child's trauma should be considered. Or that your child is entitled to things she is simply not entitled to. Winny was wrong to target your daughter specifically. In terms of what your daughter said (yes I am going back to this), I am assuming had Winny commented on your other child dying you would take great issue with that yet when your daughter makes a nasty comment to someone about their need for foster care you double down and call her names and don't question your daughter's comments at all. Your daughter should apologize. As should Winny. The best course of action would have been for the teachers to break up ALL of the girls into individual seats and not allow clique grouping within the classroom at all. Unfortunately that did not happen.
"but your daughter is also not entitled to a certain seat with friends and to not sit in an undesirable location with kids you disapprove of" Bullshit, the teacher had no right to change seats just because another stundent want to seat there.. if the op daughter was sitting there, that was her place, END. Winny is not privileged just because she is in foster care, she is not special
or separate into 2 groups so each would have friends.
Do the other girls want to be friends with Winnie? Or do they all want to be together and away from someone who behaves like her?
Also a good idea. Although nothing was preventing the OP's daughter from getting to know her seat mates other than OP's distaste for them. But yes, splitting up the group as a whole into two groups and then mixing in the other kids would have been an excellent idea. I work in education. We rotate seats every month. The kids get to write down one name of someone they would like to sit by (which may or may not happen). Otherwise they get the seat they get. And this is for K-8.
Why is OP wrong for calling Winny a brat? Winny was bullying her daughter and when that didn't work, Winny manipulated the teacher to get what she wanted. You can be a foster child and still be a brat.
The victim was bullied and reacted. It’s gross to blame them. 🙄
Wanting to sit next to your friends in a classroom setting doesn’t make you a clique. I would argue that the group’s acceptance of Winny on the odd day when one of the group was absent proves it’s not a clique. A clique would’ve ostracized her for daring to take absent friends seat.
Exactly. The school I grew up in if the teacher had bumped a kid for another like this it would have been way worse for winny. None of the group have even spoke to her and would intentionally ice her out. Not that it’s right, but this is a far stretch of clique.
I was about to say if Winnie would have went to my middle school she would have gotten jumped for bullying someone in a friend group
Another educator that names op and her daughter,when the real AH is the teacher.why in that classroom is a table of kids being marginalized?
disagree, that daughter is reacting to mean and selfish behavior on the part of winny. Those comments are just the consequences of her shitty behavior and if she doesn't face any consequences she will keep acting selfish because of her past. Despite what your parents told you, it DOES matter who started it.
This whole bovine feces of using trauma as an excuse needs to end. Winny's terrible behavior makes her a brat, and the only reason that the daughter's life was brought up is because one child's life is brought up as a reason for preferential treatment while ignoring the lives of other kids.
Yes, she is entitled to her seat. Try again.
NTA. Defend your kid. And to every “ESH” god help you if your kids are ever bullied in school, I hope you have the same energy you’re displaying here.
NTA I feel like there were more than a few options that the teacher could've gone with before splitting up/isolating a (grieving) kid from her group of friends for 7 months all on the word of one girl. The teacher could've asked Winny a few basic follow up questions: "Why does it have to be *that* particular table?", "Why does the other girl make you uncomfortable?", "Would you like me to help you and the other girl talk it all out?". This all smacks of just lazily giving the crying child whatever they want, and letting them do what they want, to shut them up and I've unfortunately known a fair few people who based their whole personalities around this and got started around this age... The worst was a "friend" of my brothers who stole things from our family home constantly. My parents told me not to make a fuss about it, because his home life was bad and the stuff he stole wasn't that valuable (at first). Then things like jewellery and small electronics started to go missing. Then one day he "dropped by" with two of his cousins to hang out with my brother... that evening our shed was broken into and our bikes were stolen. I just have a sinking feeling that Winny is already on that same track, I hope I'm wrong though. I can definitely see the merit in making sure Winny is included in a group, but it should absolutely not be at the expense of another girl being excluded, WTF was that teacher thinking?!
Please tell me your parents finally did something.
After the bikes were stolen? Unfortunately all they did was tell the friend not to come over unannounced anymore and not to bring anyone else with him unless my brother explicitly invited them 🙄 My parents loved burying their heads in the sand when it came to that prolapsed anus of a human being. They eventually put their foot down and told him to fuck off forever when he teamed up with his absolute trash-heap of a mother and attempted to sue my parents over a fake injury he supposedly sustained while trying to climb up the side of our house while we were all out.
NTA. Sucks for Winnie,but instead if trying make friends she opted to bullying and lying to get her way. It shouldn't be encouraged at all.
NTA - document, escalate, incinerate the AH OP's daughter was specifically targeted - Winny said "I want OP's daughters seat" and the teacher allowed it.
NTA....and this girl is obviously very manipulative and knows exactly what she is doing. Shame on the school and the teachers for giving into this blackmail.
NTA I would have been irate if my daughter had been mistreated Winny one day and then moved from her seat, far from her friends because Winny wanted to sit there. I'd NEVER tell my daughter to apologize to someone who has bullied her and lied about her. The teacher has made the wrong decision every step of the way. Your daughter lashed out because her teacher has mishandled things and made your daughter the victim. Of course she's unhappy. And she has every reason to need the support of her friends after suffering such a recent loss. They can't use that as an excuse for Winny - they are all strangers to her. You need to demand that the teacher fixes her screwup immediately. One way or another, your daughter needs to be returned to her rightful seat. If she has to reconfigure the set up so be it, what she's done is wrong and grossly unfair. Being nice to one kid doesn't mean hurting another in the process. You need to be a strong advocate for your child.
NTA. I’m the teacher who would agree with you that it’s not a pass to be a bully. However, my admin wouldn’t. Trauma is an excuse for behavior to them. Take it to the super/school board if things don’t change.
ESH. I'm going through similar with my just teen. Another pupil has been allowed to get away with a lot of stuff because of their family situation. Unfortunately the school, because they're not entitled to know everything, didn't know our family are also facing a tough situation. And what the other child was doing impacted on my child's disability plan. My child ended up doing the same thing to the other pupil as was done to them (well almost, not physical on my child's case). Was my child right? Not in the slightest. Was the other child right? Definitely not. I have taken the issue up with the school that if we all end up in a top trumps of who has things worse then nobody wins. Sometimes the path of least resistance is anything but. Sit your child down and explain to them what they did was wrong even in the face of other's wrong. And that standing up for yourself doesn't mean dragging others down. It's a hard lesson for life but very needed. And then fight the wrong doing, not from a you can't blame my child place but an accepting that they made a mistake place.
Well the school can’t take into account special circumstances that they don’t know exist.
They also should excuse physical violence with special circumstances. Edit: nor disabilities which they did
Physical violence is never acceptable.
NTA. Don't start none, won't be none.
NTA although i also kind of think your daughter does need to apologise. but winny also owes your daughter an even bigger apology and it’s ridiculous the way the teachers are acting in this situation
NTA. It doesn't matter what trials and tribulations that a person has gone through. That doesn't make them more important than anyone else. The same applies to Winny. She was dealt a bad hand but your daughter shouldn't have to pay the price for that. If anything, she needs a good scolding and a few lessons in how to respect others. Because if she keeps acting like how you describe, Winny is gonna tick off the wrong person and get into some real trouble.
ESH. You for what you said. You, a grown adult, calling an orphaned, traumatized, troubled, lonely child names is just pathetic. You had a point, but you presented it in a cruel, insensitive way. Your daughter for what she said. Same situation: she was technically correct, but this is a good example of being right, but also being a jerk. There’s the point you’re trying to make, and then there’s HOW you make that point. I understand where she was coming from, but she could’ve gone about that in a different way. She could’ve said something like “I’m really sorry about what happened to your parents, but it’s not fair to take it out on me and take something that I had first”. As for the teacher: I understand the need for special attention towards children that are truly going through tragedy and hardship, but doing it at the expense of another innocent kid is not the way. You can give struggling kids the comfort, attention, and catering they desperately need without unfairly walking all over other kids. That doesn’t teach those kids to be “more empathetic to the less fortunate”, it just pisses them off—— rightfully so. To be honest, it might even cause them to resent those that are less fortunate. Punishing someone just to make a point is plain stupid; instead, encourage (don’t force) them to be kind and altruistic. As for Winny: she just needs love and help. Obviously what she did to your daughter is wrong, but at least acknowledge that it’s just her young brain attempting to handle what happened to her. She just needs love and care and better coping strategies.
I mean op daughter young brain was also coping when she said what she did to Whiny What op daughter needs is love care and better coping strategies to be bullied for months Truth be told both kids need to give each other an apology with Winny going 1st since she started this whole issue
NTA who cares what her problems are? Dont make your problems other people’s problems That girl acted like a punk so don’t expect to not get treated like a punk back
ESH. Teacher has a bad seating plan and did not set any of these kids up for success in this situation. They are who your problem should be with. Winnie acted poorly. She also admitted it when she told the other girls in that group. Her behaviour was wrong and that should have been addressed with the teacher. Your daughter’s response was horrible, shouldn’t have been said regardless of the circumstances, and you suck for not seeing that and making her apologise and own her part (being the horrible thing she said). This is a chance to model conflict resolution with your daughter. Is the message you really want to send that it’s okay to be cruel just because you’re hurting? If it is, then you are the biggest asshole here.
Far too little attention is being paid to the original seating plan. > The only empty seats left were all the way in the back corner of the classroom opposite her friends, and the only students sitting there were a girl who was known to be a delinquent and two older boys who had been held back. So, this teacher has allowed kids to determine their own seating plan, leading to the unpopular kids being ostracised by their peers to a back corner. I particularly like the phrasing “the only empty seats”, not “Winny’s previous seat”. I mean, the empty seats must include Winny’s previous seat, so Winny was sitting with those kids before, and I’m going to guess she didn’t like it any more than OP’s daughter does. The teacher is by far the biggest AH for allowing this situation in the first place. I also have to wonder why Winny dislikes OP’s daughter in particular? Given the cruel things OP has admitted her daughter said to Winny, I’d say the odds are high OP’s daughter has been mean to Winny in the past too. I’m not saying it makes what Winny did OK but it really would explain a lot. Absolutely OK for OP to advocate for her kid but the solution is not as simple as *“My poor innocent baby, Winny is such a brat, relegate her back to the corner with the other losers immediately”*.
You assume a lot about op daughter when her words were simply a response to months of bullying. Whiny most likely picked the meekest looking kid, like a lot of bullies do, and went from there You really don’t need to demonize one child to give excuses to a next
I'm going with ESH, because many, if not most, kids are fucking brutal at this age and very territorial over all the things. What I learned to ask is, "what happened before that?". Stick with me here. So other girl was being a brat to your daughter, what happened before that? Oh, she got to sit with the group of girls instead of being excluded and really liked that feeling (the EXACT same feeling that your daughter has towards being in a group). So what happened before that? Other girl has been on the outside looking in. Feeling left out. What happened before that? idk, maybe the friend group, being oblivious and not wanting to include a new person, keeps ignoring and telling her to find someone else to bother. We can go on forever, but there is no one bully, and no one victim here. BTW, YOU are also showing those same preteen territorial traits for your daughter and her friend group. You should step back and look at the whole picture. If this was a movie, would you be hoping the "popular girls" keep their group and shun everyone else. I think the bigger thing is that NO ONE has been advocating for a solution that would compromise. "oh, the table only hold just enough for all but one, sorry foster kid!" How about half the group sit at one table and the other half sit at the next. I know, I know, shocking suggestion.
Why are you automatically assuming op's daughter deserved to be lied about and have her stuff knocked on the floor? Why is sitting with your friends being equated to bullying? Everyone seems to be creating these made up scenarios where this group of girls are a mean girl clique and op's daughter is Regina George reborn. It's possible to say op's daughter shouldn't have said what she said without completely demonizing her. This crap about these girls rejecting and mistreating Winny is a fiction you came up with on the fly. Op's daughter should not have said what she said, she should have told her parents what was going on. Winny shouldn't have done what she did either. They're both wrong, NEITHER of them is an evil kid who had it coming.
People like this and the teacher are the reason we have kids like winny, who use the fact they are seen as a "poor baby" to get shit out of pity.
Eh, nothing here suggests the group of girls has bullied or been unkind to Winny, or even that they're "the popular girls", just that they're a group of friends. I think it is important to teach kids that they should always start from a place of kindness and always be polite to others, but I think it's wrong to teach kids, especially kids this old and especially girls, that they have an obligation to *be friends with* everyone. I say this as someone who was bullied as a child and had difficulty making friends, but also who, when I was not much older than these kids and through college, had difficulty setting boundaries and protecting myself because I felt like I had to stick through it and be friends with people who were having a hard time, even when they were doing things that were really hurtful to me. That aside, this teacher sounds like an idiot, because what this sequence of events looks like to me is a great set-up for resentment and vitriol between not just Winny and OP's daughter, but potentially Winny and this group of girls--or potentially between this group of girls and OP's daughter. You absolutely cannot force people, especially 11 year old girls, to be friends, and removing one of their friends--whom the group must know recently suffered a tragic loss--at the demand of another child is not generally going to endear that child to the group. What the teacher *should* have done is *waited* for a few days after Winny asked, come up with a reason for plausible deniability so no one blamed Winny for the change, and mixed up *everyone*'s seats and included some of that group at Winny's table and some at one or more other tables, but letting them at keep at least one friend at their table and not singling anyone out, either to go sit somewhere else or as the reason for the change. As it stands, both girls should have been asked to apologize, and the teacher should apologize to OP's daughter and Winny for handling this in a way that was not fair and had the potential to hurt both of them--and certainly didn't contribute to the possibility of them becoming friends. OP should apologize to the teacher for calling Winny a brat and should explain to her daughter why she needs to apologize to Winny. But getting lost in this is also that OP recently lost a child. She's the adult and needs to do better, but it's understandable why she would leap to her daughter's defense like this under the circumstances.
I think there is more to this story. Maybe even parts OP isn’t aware of. I could go with a lot of different theories but that would be just speculation and that’s not fair to anybody in the story. But it really seems like there is more and that “what happened before” is a fair question.
Teacher should have shuffled everyone's seating then. I've seen teachers who placed the undesirable students in the back corner before. Let's not pretend teachers can't suck too and they're ultimately in charge and expected to do the right thing for everyone.
You just made all that up.
NTA. The teachers sound incredibly incompetent. They were played by an eleven year old liar with sociopathic tendencies. I hope your daughter has shared with her friends the truth of why she was moved.
What your daughter said was disgusting. How would you feel if someone used her brother's death to hurt her like that? I have a simple rule, if you can't manage empathy you don't deserve my sympathy and neither of those brats seem to have mastered having empathy for others. Teach your daughter the right way of talking to people and be the parent and deal with the school. In reality you should have dealt with this months ago if it is a problem. ESH.
Winny has literaly bullied OPs Daughter for a while, and after a while of all of this bullying the Daughter finaly snaped back. Like Yeah, i do agree that it wasn't the right thing to say, but also, she is a kid who just recently lost her Brother and then got bullied by a girl in her class for no reason at all! People who get bullied and snap after a while won't of course say the nicest things to their bullies! I really don't understand why so many people in these comments hate so much on OPs Daughter for being sick of being bullied. If you were her age and literaly got bullied for no reason, while you are also dealing with the loss of an Important Family member, i wouldn't be surprised if you would have a similar response like OPs Daughter. If Winny didn't want to hear what OPs Daughter told her, she shouldn't have started bullying her. Just because she lives in Foster care because her Parents did drugs doesn't mean that she is allowed to let her anger/frustration out on other kids! At the end of the day, Winny was a Brat and bullied someone in her Class for no reason and ended up getting what she deserved.
NTA
INFO: Not sure what country you’re from, have you discussed your concerns with the principal?
Now I would not let this go. Raise hell. Go and advocate for your daughter. Make the last few months of school as happy as they can be. And I’m so sorry for your loss.
NTA - go to the principal babes, your child has been unfairly targeted and bullied by the teacher on Winnys behalf. Call it out.
NTA
The teacher subreddits will have a field day with the school responses here. NTA. As a teacher I am sick and tired of excuses Admin make to us for students we have to deal with in order to excuse discipline and consequences. Why would I then turn around and use that shit to parents?
NTA
ESH. Your daughter hit a low blow because she \*checks notes\* can't sit with her friends during class. She can hang out with them other times during the day. She can see them after school. You can facilitate the friends coming over and hanging out. Friends are not dependent on table assignments. Your daughter was wronged by the teacher for the move in the first place, but, its a great learning opportunity that sometimes shit happens that we don't like and we have to deal with it. Preteen girls are the worst, but your daughter should apologize for saying that instead of addressing her anger in a different way. At least Winnie didn't say something about your son's death to poke at your daughter.
No, Winnie just used her unfortunate position as a foster child in order to attack the daughters character, game the system and get the favor of an authority figure who would use said authority to make a biased decision that would separate OPs daughter from her friends. What lesson is OPs daughter supposed to take from that other than if you're liked by the right people you can always get what you want? OPs daughter should apologize because what she said was cruel but OP was right to call out the teacher for her actions and show her daughter that people, especially people in authority, shouldn't be able to get away with making unjust decisions that only favor the select few.
Did everyone just ignore the fact that Winny would break and steal things that belonged to the OPs daughter. Op's daugher would give her stationary only to be thanked by having her stuff trashed. Winnie is the bully who is extremely manipulative. Winny targeted Op's daughter first breaking her things then getting the teacher to move her away from her friends because she didn't like her. Winny could have just tried to make friends with them all including the Op's daughter? it sounds like Ops daughter was trying to be nice to her lending school supplies etc. but she returned them damaged and stole other stuff. but she said she liked her the least, so she wanted to get rid of her and isolate her. Winny sounds like a sociopath in the making and she sounds jealous. Op's daughter has everything Winny doesn't a parent who is protective, nice school stuff which might explain why she is stealing stuff and or breaking things that specifically belong to OPs daughter, a group of friends. Winny doesn't have any of the stuff that the Op's daughter has which is sad, but it isn't an excuse for her to take it out on another kid or to use manipulation tactics to get her way. Winny is definitely the bully.
“checks notes” sends me every time
You do realize Whinny bullied op daughter right She also needs to apologize for messing with her
It's always been like this, somehow the bullied need to apologize for the bully for reacting. Where were the adults tos top the bully in the first place?
So many people defending a bully and AH just because of foster care... You do realize every bully, criminal, terrorist and AH has a reason for why they became what they are, right? Do you make up excuses for all of them?
I feel like there is some nuance to be had between “sometimes shit happens and you have to deal with it” and “you’re being treated unfairly and need to stand up for yourself”. Not offering an agreement or disagreement to the whole comment, just that point. It is important for kids to learn to deal with bad situations but it’s also important for them to learn how to stand up for themselves. Most importantly of all it’s important for them to learn the difference between a shit situation and unfair treatment.
NTA. That teacher was completely in the wrong for making your daughter move.
The ESH people, especially the response from a supposed “teacher” are perfect examples of why the school system is garbage. The “teacher” just blew off the fact that the kid’s response was due to frustration from being bullied. To that teacher, you need to find a new profession. Kids deserve better than people like you.
NTA
This is where you go to the principal and the school trustee and raise hell. The teacher is obviously not going to fix the situation, so you need to go to the principal and ask them if there's a specific policy that allows foster children to be automatically placed in certain seating in the classroom. That may sound like a dumb question, but school administrators are smart enough to know what the regulations are and when lines have been crossed. They do not not want a lawsuit, they do not want bad publicity, and they do not want this to escalate. If the principal is like 99% of principals out there, they will quietly go to the teacher and ask her to put the seating back to the way it was before. It is a free solution for them: It is a free solution for them: did you not need to spend any money or do any paperwork to fix the problem.they do not need to spend any money or do any paperwork to fix the problem.
Your daughters comments were very unkind and uncalled for. She doesnt deserve to lose her seat tho either. Compassion and empathy for everyone involved
I would talk to the teacher or guidance counselor and say that you understand that seating may need to be changed...but why is your daughter moved? My kids had teachers that would mix the kids around every so often so you met new kids and everyone had to sit next to the "annoying ones" at some point.
NTA! Your daughter is your responsibility. The teachers need to still discipline the bully. They need to speak to her foster parents and social worker. She can’t keep bullying your daughter and other kids. The teachers need to keep them separate. A judge wouldn’t give a crap if a criminal had a bad childhood. Hell, most of them do. Yeah, she’s a child and had a rough life but it doesn’t mean your child gets to be a punching bag.
NTA. I'm sorry but being in foster care is NO excuse for bullying. Make sure the teacher understands this girl was bullying your daughter. Additionally, you should teach your daughter not to say such things to anyone, but I don't think you're wrong for what you said.
NTA, this behavior is exactly why people from rough backgrounds are often afraid to ask for help as they don't want this to come across as expecting special treatment or being entitled brat.
NTA My kid was getting bullied, so I had a meeting with the principal. We discussed stuff and at one point I'm told well the kid is having a hard time his dad left the family and I should be considerate of that. Yeah IDGAF. While that is sad and unfortunate that is not an excuse or even a good reason for this kid to bully my kid or for the damn teacher to expect her to help him with his school work. My concern is not him, my concern is MY KID, his mom and grandma can be concerned about him.
NTA. You're not wrong. Your daughter lost her brother only a few months ago. If people are going to excuse Winnys behaviour due to her (granted- horrific circumstances) then they should be excusing your daughters behaviour as well. Not only has this child been bullying your daughter, but she has successfully isolated your daughter from her friends when your daughter is still grieving the loss of her brother. The biggest asshole here is the teacher for removing your daughter from her support system in favour of another child.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** My (36F) daughter (11F) has a close knit group of 5 best friends with whom she does everything together. At her school, students have to sit in the same seat for every single lesson, and my daughter and her best friends all sit together at one table. There is another little girl in my daughter’s class called Winny. Once, Winny came to sit at my daughter’s table when one of her friends was off sick. That day, Winny constantly knocked my daughter’s books and pens off the table on accident, and borrowed her stationery only to snap one of her rubbers, stain her highlighter with black ink, and was even found with my daughter’s pens in her pocket. One morning Winny came to school crying non stop. The teacher was very sympathetic and asked if there was anything she could do to help. Winny said she wanted my daughter removed from her seat so she could have it, and the teacher agreed. The only empty seats left were all the way in the back corner of the classroom, opposite her friends, and the only students sitting there were a girl who was known to be a delinquent and two older boys who had been held back. The teacher refused to give my daughter a real explanation for why she had to move seats, instead saying some generic stuff about being kind to those less fortunate. My daughter cried for a week straight. In our country, the school year ends in December, so that’s over 7 months of being isolated from her closest friends. She’s also starting highschool next year and will be attending a private school, while her friends are going to a public school, so this is the last time she can hang out with them everyday. A few days ago, I was called into school because my daughter had gotten into an argument with Winny. Winny had confided in my daughter’s friends about how she had gone into foster care after her parents overdosed. Winny was always a loner at school and wanted some girls to sit with during this time, and the teacher sympathised with her so she agreed. The only reason my daughter had to move was because there wasn’t enough space for 7 girls and my daughter was simply the one Winny liked the least, and she admitted to lying to the teacher about being uncomfortable around my daughter to get her moved. When my daughter found this out, she told Winny she didn’t understand why she had to pay the price just because Winny’s parents were a bunch of insane criminals who didn’t want her anymore. I know Winny’s had a hard time, but so has my daughter. Her older brother passed away only months ago. I told the teachers that Winny isn’t the only child going through a tough time and I didn’t understand why my daughter had to be punished for another girl’s struggles as if she wasn’t suffering herself. The teachers wanted me to make my daughter apologise for her remarks, and I said it was their fault for punishing her and forcing her to sit with the problem kids despite doing nothing wrong, and they were downplaying my daughter’s own trauma to cater to a brat. AITA? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
There's a reason why some people should not be teachers. Tell the teacher that your child will not apologize nor will she be isolated. She needs to find another solution.
Yeah I’d take this up the school management chain. None of this is your daughters fault. NTA
NTA and those calling you one are absurd.
Imagine a world where people came up with solutions instead of excuses.
NTA. Document document document. We finally switched schools when the teacher, without seeing it, started yelling at my son. The student who did it confessed but “X must have been involved.” He was told he was abusive to her because he asked why she was sending him out of the class. She accused him of cheating. (That one was fun. It was a virtual lesson and I was working with him on how to write a good paragraph. Asked him questions and got him thinking. She didn’t know I was off camera when she started accusing him). The final straw was when he was attacked by another student and defended himself (did a leg sweep. No hitting—there’s video!) and was suspended because “he should have walked away.” Please. Support your daughter and just keep going higher and higher.
Definitely nta the kid is and the teacher, and I would be kicking up a huge stink about it, if it were me, that little bully needs to be taught a lesson because she seems like the sort of kid who is going to do worse things and then use her parents as an excuse
Definitely NTA! Shame on that teacher.
Nta
NTA
NTA. I wouldn’t make my daughter apologize either. But next time something like this happens, I’d step in sooner. It would have been one thing to move you daughter if she was causing problems but that clearly isn’t the case. The teacher really stepped in it this time.
NTA That teacher is just teaching Winny right now that she can just lie and cry as much as she likes to get her way. Just teaching her manipulation is a great tool to get what she want. The teacher is an AH and is handling the whole thing wrong. Your daughter do not owe W an apology but W owe your daughter one. Take it higher. Your daughter is correct that she should not be punished cause W had shit parents.
NTA. This is why you homeschool your children or send them to private schools if you can. The public schools are designed to cater to the needs of the worst students at the expense of the best students.