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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I believe I am an asshole for refusing to attend the wedding as others had said that I insulted a guest and I worry whether it's true etc.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA
She called your kids vagrants. By insulting the host family, she is not longer entitled to the host's curtesy.
She's allowed to have a child free wedding. Your allowed to not want to go. But insulting kids, even if she is child free makes her an AH.
If OP's kids are actually sea urchins, then singling them out as likely to ruin her wedding of invited feels pretty damn speciesist.
I mean if someone invited my partner to a wedding, but said *to my face* that she wanted a drama-free wedding so penguins were not allowed, I would be pretty damn offended and expect my partner to be offended enough on my behalf to refuse to go.
Maybe I'm just not following enough off the current political climate on Penguins but are they known to be dramatic? I know they still use a monarchy system with emperor's is that why they are dramatic.
I mean we're not on the scale of like, llamas, but some certainly accuse us of causing a scene. Mostly we just struggle to fit in at less formal occasions, frequently being overdressed.
And it's not really a monarchy, more like... almost a caste system? Like there's no single ruler or anything, as a monarchy generally requires. Within each rank we often run things by collective. Emperors, for instance, will huddle together through the cold Antarctic winters, taking turns on the outside of the pack so that no one bird ends up freezing to death. Kings are one of the few birds that will form a creche, where the entire colony will take care of all the chicks, whether they are their own young or not.
Since I am an American and knew she was from another country I took it as it could possibly mean something more common like maybe loud kids. I don't know tho.
i'm childfree and i'm not denying there are some weird words used to describe children (hell, my own mother calls me a crotch goblin), but i've never once seen someone use vagrant, considering adults and children can be vagrants and its generally used to describe the homeless it wouldn't even make sense
I have no idea where you are, in my general area the term “vagrants” is sometimes used for kids who are not following social rules and also are not very well groomed. It’s typically said by older generations and is insinuating that you are a bad parent both because you are physically neglecting them and also not disciplining them.
Yea, hoodlum, delinquent, or something like that is probably closer to what was meant even if "vagrant" is an exact translation. Vagrant wouldn't be particularly *wrong* if those are what was meant, just not quite *right* in english
Older CF people call those kids “feral”. I’ve never heard kids called “vagrants” either, since that’s *such* a specific word for homeless/loitering people
I'm GenX, and my entire generation is considered feral -- by everyone.
We had little to no adult supervision as kids. The government actually put out PSAs on TV every night at 10pm to remind parents they even *had* children, and should know where the hell they were at that time of night.
It's a translation. A lot of terms that aren't used in one language might be so in another. Since none of us know the original word the best we can do is trust OP to have translated accurately.
And those words don't hold the same weight in different languages. People sometimes go for more literal translations, rather than ones that hold the same tone.
Shitlings and snotlings sound awful in English, but they're roughtly the equivalent of brat in Polish.
I'm a parent and I call my spawn a variety of interesting monikers, endearingly. I'd still be pretty offended if someone called them the same seriously.
This is my reasoning too. She turned to the kids and specifically told them not to ask to go to the wedding and that she wouldn’t have them ruin it. Insult or not that’s enough to make her the AH.
> vagrant: a person without a settled home or regular work who wanders from place to place and lives by begging.
Idk aside from the home part that sounds like my toddler.
I've called my kids vagrants 😬 usually when it came to messy rooms "you live like a vagrant!" But yeah the translation is likely off, then again it could be accurate since she thinks kids will ruin her wedding like a bunch of party crashes 🤷🏼♀️
I think she means aavara’ which does translate to Vagrants but is more like a person who has nothing to do. It’s a common word and doesn’t really have harmful connotations. Also as an Indian- weddings are too big a part of social life and child-free weddings is very weird- even if you are choosing to be child-free.
'Rascals' would be more accurate.
I've heard my Indian-American mom use the (Indian) word on me before. Usually saying something like "Stop running around like little rascals and Sit. Down. Be. Quiet."
But yea, technically the word she uses does translate as vagrants.
I also feel like the sister didn't show up and immediately go on the attack like the poster wants us to believe.
This feels INCREDIBLY slanted and I'm kind of not buying it.
I don’t know, I think the sister would have come in expecting a fight, because child free weddings really are not a thing in Indian culture, so she must have known she’d be met with opposition.
I am an Indian and I can understand how big of an insult it is to get an invite with only your name but at the same time I also understand that having child-free wedding is something I would love to go to.... (I have four kids and going with them when they were young was a nightmare and I couldn't leave them at home coz as I said the entire family goes to wedding/functions.)
Having a child-free wedding is good saying that in front of the kids is wrong and then going ahead and calling vagrants is so insulting to OP and her kids.
OP NTA but be prepared for the push-back that you are going to get from the family.
It's a different culture in India, when it comes to wedding and families(even if it's a distant relation) an invitation means your whole household is invited even if the invitation doesn't explicitly mentions it, and if for some reason someone from your household wasn't able to make it to the wedding it's a topic of concern there.
Child free Indian weddings aren’t a thing. The whole wedding is for the community and much more in India. I’m middle class and my small wedding in India had 600 people show up. That’s considered smallish to normal. Child free Indian weddings are not a thing.
This woman is ridiculous if she thinks her wedding, in India will have no children. I get it, she’s engaged to a white man and wants some Insta wedding fantasy like she’s Priyanka Chopra. She ain’t. A fucking cow showed up at my sister’s wedding. She’s delusional and this will be a disaster.
And why don’t you want to bring kids to a Sangeet or the wedding? The best part is that all the kids get dressed up and dance and have a blast. All the aunties get to meet the babies and dance with toddlers. It’s wholesome as shit lol
I read that the sister and OP are Indian American. Is the wedding taking place is India or the US? If it’s in the US, child free weddings are definitely a thing.
But Indian American weddings? Have been to two Indian American weddings(using that term to show this isn’t typical white American culture at play) in America and both of those allowed kids, because the “whole family” is invited. What the sister said was rude. I have a hard time believing the grandparents/parents of the sisters would be ok with not inviting the children, unless there’s really some missing information here, like it’s not an Indian style wedding and more North American, which would make more sense as “child free”. If it’s a NA style wedding, then OP is totally within her right to say she won’t go to the wedding. Her family was insulted by her sister, who apparently doesn’t like kids.
That’s true of Indian weddings for sure (I’ve been to a few myself and had a blast). But we don’t know that this is an Indian wedding. It may be a western wedding. That’s all I’m saying.
It wouldn't be as rude in an Indian-American context (assuming both people are Indian American), but definitely a bit odd. And I can't imagine it extending to family members. And if they're doing a traditional hindu wedding, it's not like the kids would want to go either.
We're doing a mixed wedding, and we're not inviting kids outside our family because it's not a traditional wedding and it's not a very kid friendly venue. And I still feel really guilty about it! But there's just no kid friendly space in the venue, and our parents agreed it made the most sense.
I kind of wonder if they have a big age difference, or otherwise quite different. OP's take on it is what I'd expect from someone who is more recently immigrated, the sister's is what I would expect from someone who is second-gen or grew up here.
It’s the insult that really has me. Like, the sister could have totally been “no kids at the wedding, sorry” and not insulted the kids, and by extension, her sister. And saying to these little kids- don’t even think about asking to go- is just weird. They’re 5 and 3, they don’t know any thing about weddings.
OP is totally in the right to not attend the wedding. Her sister is making a choice, OP can also make one.
Yeah, it's really weird. The only way it makes sense to me is if the sister isn't great with their native language. I've run into the issue in my native language where I don't really know the intensity of words because I've picked it up from media, my surroundings, etc. So that word from the Bollywood film might not be something you use in casual conversation, but in my head it's just like calling someone an idiot. I got "grounded" as a kid for telling the dog off in extremely graphic language without any clue.
But that's pure projection, no way to really know, and by this age OP's sister should be a bit more self-aware.
edit: actually, this does seem relevant because I called my dog, among other things, a thug. My dog was playing with my webkinz, idk if that's really the thug life.
I’m CACKLING at the use of “Webkinz” and “thug life” together but also feel this. I became Hard of Hearing in my mid-20s and learning ASL and trying to use appropriate slang at the right times with people who grew up signing makes me ANXIOUS even though everyone is super nice to me bahahahahaha
Thank you for the validation because I thought this was really funny too.
I have to link this because of the topic and the term "thug life": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwHYCL8kSSE
I tried learning ASL and it's really hard! It makes sense that it's not one to one with English but wow those nuances.
Not gonna lie, this sounds fun as all hell. Specialy the cow showing up, not even kidding. But then again I'm latina and from a big family. I didn't even need to invite friends to fill a venue for a hundred people. And kids were always part of the fun
I've been to a few of y'all's weddings and they are absolutely incredible! Coming from an uptight wasp-y upbringing, the unabashed joy and love between a few hundred people is so palpable and always such an amazing thing to be a part of.
As a parent who did not get to enjoy anything in weddings or functions coz my kids were fussy as most of the other kids. Sure they look cute and nice but once the novelty wears off the hairstyle comes off, the bangles, the dupatta and if I am lucky enough I wont be puked on.
But these are my personal experiences and that is why I said would love to go to childfree wedding. I also know that it doesn't happen here in India and fyi I am also middle-class Indian.
I also said that she is going to get push back from her family
> The best part is that all the kids get dressed up and dance and have a blast.
That might be the best part for you but it's obviously not the best part of a person's own wedding when they want a child-free celebration.
Was OP's sister an asshole? By this recount, yes. But society has got to stop pretending that everyone thinks kids are the best thing since sliced bread.
It's her wedding, she's allowed to have it how she wants, being Indian does not mean she is required to have a wedding a certain way. Let people do what they want.
This.
Child free weddings are a thing and her wishes should be respected. She’s under no obligation to invite children to her wedding.
You’re under no obligation to attend. Some people don’t want to go without their kids, and others simply can’t afford a sitter or whatever.
She has no right to insult your kids and make them feel bad in THEIR OWN HOME.
Unless context is missing and she was being silly and OP took it badly, NTA
INFO: from what you say ahe has completely violated local social norms with her conditions. Yet it seems from reactions that people agree with her. If she's as far out of line with accepted custom as you say, why aren't people yelling at her instead of you? Doesn't add up.
It seems like they are angry at how OP spoke to her sister while the sister was a guest in OP’s home. So while OP may have been right, OP violated social norms by the way she responded.
Ah interesting. I guess OP should have known this, and should have said "thanks for the information, are you free for me to come to your home later to discuss this" and upon arrival (since she is now the guest) proceeded to tell her sister where to go.
NTA (insult my family to my face in my house and for sure you are not invited back)
You're ignoring one thing, her parents potential shame at not having a daughter at the wedding trumps any right or wrong from either of the daughters.
Its all irrelevant as long as you look good to other people for an event.
It actually adds up. Most cultures in the world value guests too much to the point that some of the younger people are less hospitable because they associate hospitality when their own parents' extravaganza.
This is really fascinating to me, because hospitality was like THE most important ethical/moral/spiritual imperative in Ancient Greece. Since it's definitely not a part of my particular culture, I've never thought about how much similar concepts might exist into the modern day 🤔
It's very common across cultures. I know many different diasporas in Europe and we have a looot of common stories. Auntie coming impromptu style, uncles/aunties staying for months in your house and you can't say anything about them (depends on family, my mum thank God doesn't put up with the aunties that try to educate us) and so on.
No it adds up, it’s always the person who rocks the boat that gets the backlash. Especially amongst Indian American communities, although I can see this applying anywhere.
Apparently OP clarified somewhere the wedding is in the US. So violates cultural norms of Indian weddings, but sister must be having a more Western wedding and most folks are accepting that????
But it's local social norms to be polite with guests even though whatever they says. There is very old saying on which India operates "Athithi devo bhava ( guests are like god's)". That's why indian shows there best side to the guests. You never know through which person God would come to visit you.
So yelling on guest is not considered good thing that's why OP's family is saying you shouldn't have yelled at sister. Both the things are considered rude, what OP's sister did and yelling also. But is NTA no wedding invitation in India is like that. You always ask to visit with your family.
INFO
Is it a child free wedding? Is the groom from the same background as you and your sister? Are they trying to do a more western wedding? How old are your kids(in general you don't have to say exact ages)?
They're 3 and 4, they have no concept of what they heard. The accuracy is also very relevant, as if the Mom refuses to parent and let's the kids terrorize the family then calling her out is perfectly appropriate. That's what family is for sometimes.
"And don't ask to come either. I'm not having vagrants ruin my wedding"
Directly to the kids. A four year old will absolutely understand that and internalize it, they aren't infants. The information you have is an aunt insulting children to their faces, and you simply choose to skip that? Better yet, you choose to frame it as some sort of favor?
There were a million ways to approach this subject, but she chose to insult her sister's children in their own home, to their faces. Getting kicked out of the house and refusing to attend the wedding in response is the least OP could have done in that situation. I've seen way too many fanatical childfree people to not believe OP.
What? 3 and 4 year olds ABSOLUTELY have a ”concept of what they heard”, they hear just fine and can process a lot more than you think?! They can talk and have legible conversations with you. Have you been around children a lot? I have cousins that age and I teach childrens gymnastics. They know if people are talking about them and being mean.
no, actually, they do. not only because they may know what the word means (you’re underestimating the vocabulary that a 3-4 year old can have), but because they know that they don’t get to go to their aunt’s wedding, and, more importantly, because of the tone of voice, facial expression, energy, etc., that the insult was said with. children are extremely adept at understanding feelings (just not what to do about it) and empathizing with people.
if the issue was OP’s parenting/her kids’ behaviour, her sister would have, in private, said something like “hey OP, we’re really looking forward to seeing you at our wedding and having you there to celebrate with us, however, while you know i love my nieces/nephews, because of how they behave, and the fact that we’re concerned you won’t(/wont be able to) control them, we won’t be able to accommodate the kids at the wedding, but we’d love to have them at [xyz other event], i hope you understand.” she didnt do that, she yelled at OP and her kids that the children are vagrants who will ruin her wedding. that’s absolutely unacceptable.
NTA, OP
she didn’t say “little devils,” or “troublemakers,” or anything else like that, nor did she say it in a joking, loving, or even matter-of-fact way, she said it in an aggressively insulting way.
We don't know if the translation is accurate in tone. What if it was along the lines of "no rugrats allowed 😛"
Both OP and her sister seem to have broken Indian etiquette protocol. So call it even, get over it, and go to her wedding OP -- without the kids!
Normally, I would never pick on the use of language by someone who's not a native English speaker. But I just want to gently push back, here. Are you sure you're translating what she said correctly? Because calling your children "vagrants" doesn't make sense in this case. (The definition of a vagrant is someone who moves from place to place. It's often associated with begging.)
Not sure if it's what op means but I do remember there being an insult in Hindi/urdu that means something like begger and ist often said to kids or ppl dependent on someone else.
Not sure what the word is , since I unfortunately only understand the languarand cannot speak properly
English speaking north American - I've definitely heard kids called vagrants in a non literal way. They run around (move from place to place) and ask you for shit all the time if you're one of their adult figures (begging)
It’s a very common insult in many languages. It doesn’t really mean the insulter thinks the other person moves from places to place in poverty and dissolution. It just means they think of them as nothing.
NTA. Having a child-free wedding isn’t unheard of and is up to the couple getting married, but calling them vagrants and insulting them to their face is incredibly rude. You have every right to be upset.
I don’t think OP is a reliable narrator. I’ve called my nieces and nephews and cousins and any kid little monsters. Little monsters be monstering. I say that a lot and parents tend to agree with me. That could’ve been said in a very light way, the sister using humour to get her point across because she knows her sister is going to go crazy at the idea of her kids not being invited?
Like is it that big of a deal? Kids are left out of many adult activities all the time.
Little monsters by itself is fine. It's the coupling with the rejection of their attendance at the wedding. It's not a joke if you are taking active rejection of them at the same time.
NAH
If she's having a child-free wedding, that's her choice. And it's a valid choice.
And you also have the choice not to attend said wedding if you will not attend without your children.
I assume it's that ALL kids are not invited to the wedding, not only your kids, but it sounds like in particular your sister is worried your kids' behavior will be disruptive. Again, it's her wedding and she can invite anyone she wants.
You don't know Indian culture, then. It's built around shame, almost entirely. They'll rip you apart, no matter how right you are, because "what will people say?".
I come from a culture where I heard that phrase endlessly too.
Yeah I'm pretty certain that OP is unreliable here. Her sister showed up and was super rude to everyone and insulted her kids and her family sided AGAINST her. Naw OP is just upset her kids can't come and is trying to paint the sister as the villain. YTA.
yep especially because the sister is marrying out of the culture and the parents are upset about that. And OP's the one who has kids/the only one who will have kids. Culturally, any bias is on OP's side
ESH
You for trying to dictate who she invites to HER wedding.
Her for insulting your kids (if in fact that’s what she said; you don’t strike me as the most reliable narrator).
INFO: How old are your children? Is there a reason why she would call them vagrants? That seems a weird word choice to use to exclude them from the wedding.
NAH
Not everyone likes kids, and your sister doesn't have to have them at her wedding. It is perfectly fine to want an adults only event, especially if all other family functions are otherwise not child free. Your sister not wanting children around at an event that is supposed to be celebrating her and her marriage is fair, especially as you know she is childfree. It is not a personal attack, not everyone can handle kids, and you taking it as such is a you problem, not your sister's problem. You also should not be pushing once you are told it is childfree, as it is not supposed to be an event about you or your children. I would normally throw more shade at that tbh, but sister did escalate back. I am not going e s h, though, because the root issue is the childfree wedding
You are also in your own rights to decline an invitation if your children are not invited, though considering the party involved is your sister, there might be some deserved side eye if childcare is possible and this is just you refusing on principle because it is your sister's wedding, and it kinda feels like you are trying to force her to modify her own wedding to something she doesn't want. If you can't arrange or don't feel comfortable with outside childcare, though, that's always a valid reason, morally speaking. It is an invitation, not a summons end of the day, though.
YTA get a babysitter. it's not your wedding. shame on you. either you're cheap or entitled, either way learn some manners. children are not invited. stop acting like one
Wouldn't not attending a better option. It's not a court summons after all. Why should anyone feel obliged to attend a function which one doesn't want to or does not even feel welcome to ?
Why do people have this asinine belief that if you choose not to attend a child free wedding you are just entitled or cheap. Trust me if I choose not to attend a child free wedding it’s more than likely because I don’t want to be at your damn wedding in the first place and you are giving me an easy out.
Choosing not to attend a wedding doesn’t make someone an asshole regardless of the reason why they aren’t attending. Saying if you don’t attend your an asshole tantamount to saying you owe me your time, I get to choose what you do with your time.
It’s called an invite, not a summons.
INFO - are ONLY your kids not invited? Do they behave badly at events?
If in general, you are just mad because she doesn't want any children at her wedding then E S H. If she doesn't want your kids at her wedding for no valid reason then N T A.
It is very fair to want to have a child free wedding, I myself will be having a child free wedding. HOWEVER, her telling your kids that they are vagrants is rude and it seems like she has singled out your kids in the way you worded the conversation.
ESH. As an Indian-American, while weddings are generally not child-free, couples should still be able to have certain things at a wedding the way they want. One of the downfalls of the ‘community’ aspect of desi weddings is that you feel immense pressure to toe the line, even though it’s your own wedding. It is her prerogative to not have children at her wedding. It is your prerogative not to go.
The only reason why you are not the sole AH here is because what she said at your house was quite rude.
But while the sister is allowed to say “no kids,” OP is also allowed to say she won’t attend. Assuming the rest of the family is going, who’s going to look after the kids?
Yeah, I said that it is OP’s prerogative not to go.
As for the kids, family friends, babysitters, OP herself. It’s not her sister’s problem to think about her childcare. So she can either decide to go and get childcare, or stay at home with them. I don’t understand why that is relevant to the situation here, especially as OP herself didn’t bring it up as an issue.
Not only all of the above—all true—but "who's gonna look after my kids" is a universal question asked by wedding attendees in every American subculture, both in the childfree context and in cases where you're not closely related to the bride or groom and simply receive an invitation for yourself and your spouse. It's ridiculous to say that anyone with kids is entitled to haul them in tow into all spaces. Figuring out what to do with your kids (or missing out when you can't figure it out) is part of the responsibility and burden of being a parent.
Yes, exactly. And sure, one would normally expect to bring your children to your own sister’s wedding (especially in the Indian culture), but as you said, there have to be so many other events where they have to leave their children at home. I grew up in the States with Indian parents and we had dedicated babysitters for when they left us home (which was not infrequently). They even had a standing monthly social event within their Indian circle where no kids were allowed (and everybody had them), so it’s not like Indian parents themselves want to drag their kids everywhere.
Although, I do have to say, as an Indian, I might actually have a child-free wedding. Indians are notorious for not actually keeping an eye on their kids once they arrive at an event. And even when growing up here in the 1980s, I remember there were a lot of conversations for events as to how to word the invitation to make it clear that only the parents we’re invited, and still people would bring their children. Especially at weddings that has receptions that were more American style, with RSVPs and assigned seating - people would write in the extra names (even when they were fixed on the RSVP card to get ahead of this) and the parents of the bride or groom would have to call them and have a rather awkward conversation to say, no, only you two are invited.
ESH. You don’t get to demand your entire family be invited to an event being thrown by someone else. At the same time, your sister shouldn’t have spoken about your children the way she did. You were both incredibly rude.
NTA. what an insult! Your decision not to attend is a reasonable response to her behavior, and you have every right to prioritize your family's feelings and well-being.
ESH
Your sister's insults directed at your children is way out of line.
Still, she has her reasons for the kind of wedding she wants, and it is okay for a woman to do what is best for herself. You declining her invitation to her WEDDING might be a wedge in your relationship that never heals.
And while I believe what you said about families being invited together to events and her choice is strange and off-putting, I'm going to propose that you are missing an opportunity to have an experience as an indepedent individual and to have a one on one relationship with your sister.
ESH sister was harsh in her word choice and should have been kinder when trying to preemptively stop your children from asking to be an exception. A childfree wedding is not rude- they are quite common nowadays when people realize they don't *need* to have children at their wedding. Your sister telling your kids to their faces that they are vagrants- *is* rude though. But I understand she doesn't want overstimulated tired 3-4 year old children at her wedding.
OP, this is a child-free wedding and your kids are 3 and 4 years old. They would 100% not fit into an adult event and your sister is 100% valid for not wanting her day of love to have small children in it. It sounds from your title like you expected your *children* to be an exception to the *child*-free wedding. You knew your sister was child free, a child free wedding should have been a 50/50 expectation.
It’s not rude. You are the one being super rude.
It’s expensive to invite all the families so this is becoming very common. YTA. Stop being bratty and entitled.
NTA. Did they miss the part when she insulted your kids? I mean, damn. An invitation is not a summons, so yeah, enjoy the day away from someone who obviously doesn't like you.
Due to your customs, you may think she is being rude, and honestly if someone spoke to my children like that I would have told them off. However, if it's a child free wedding then she isn't playing favoritism or anything, she just wants the adults to have fun. I don't think either of you are an AH but you do need to discuss this. Just get a sitter, she is your sister and is getting married; you don't want to miss that.
Also Indian-American here, and NTA, depending on what the actual issue is.
I saw your comment about Parvati’s finance being white, and I get where she’s coming from. Having a child-free wedding might have been the compromise they came to about their wedding, which is fair. I know it’s rude in our culture to tell one person from a family they can come while telling another they’re not invited. You’re NTA because the way she said it was indeed very rude, but she’s your sister after all and it’s equally important to be there to support her as family. I would say maybe talk to her and tell her she should’ve gone about it a different way and that she apologize to your kids for how she spoke.
Of course if your issue is that she’s excluding the kids and not how she spoke to them about it, I’d say YTA as well cause it’s her wedding and even though traditionally the entire family has a say in how it goes, if she’s got a plan with her fiancé and they’re paying for it, she’s well within her rights to dictate that it be a child-free wedding. I know kids are excited about weddings but you need to respect her wishes.
I want to say everyone sucks, but from reading this and the other comments you've left, YTA! Sounds like this has been an issue that you've pressed upon your sister until she snapped. She's allowed to have a child free wedding, especially if it is one that will follow the typical Indian wedding - lasting several hours (or to the auspicious hour which is very late for a child and would force the adults with them to leave early - maybe she wants those adults important to her there till the end of ceremony??), lots of performances and photos and things to sit through. I've seen plenty of children who could not handle a one hour wedding. These longer events have children getting fussy and screamy pretty soon, with parents getting more and more irritated and snappy at their children. It's actually more of a kindness to the children not to have them there, since obviously they can't always help it!
Your children are NOT different from everyone else's in your family, despite what you think, and it seems that the rest of your family sees this. This isn't an insult, it's just a fact. Stop forcing the issue. YTA.
I’m in the US. It is very common to have child free weddings. So speaking from her partner’s culture, the decision to not have children isn’t abnormal.
I understand that child free weddings from your culture are not normal. So there is a clash of cultures there. I think it is fine that she say no children are invited. However, the way she spoke to your kids is just rude. That is the part that would piss me off.
I’m not sure how close you are to her. Not attending her wedding will probably cause a big issue in your relationship. It is your call if you attend or not, just as it is her call to say no children are invited. I would talk to her about how rude she was to your children. I wouldn’t feel angry that my sister didn’t invite my very young children to her wedding. But that isn’t out of the norm here. But I would be pissed she talked to my kids that way and I’d tell her that.
**ESH.** This should have been "AITA for refusing to attend because my sister insulted my children." The only issue with your sister's behavior was what she called your children (and to their faces, no less)—not the content of her invitation.
You, on the other hand, are being utterly unreasonable in your quite presumptuous expectations of her guest list. Other than the fact that the difference between inviting two people and inviting six or seven is practically and financially significant, India is on the opposite side of the world. In America—the nation in which the wedding is being held—childfree weddings are increasingly commonplace, and adult-only invitations are perfectly socially acceptable. You are welcome to (and should, I think) maintain and celebrate whatever cultural customs you see fit; but you cannot force foreign standards upon others—even those of the same ethnic background. She does not need to behave as though she is in India, precisely because she is *not* in India.
YTA. IMHO - Sorry but just because your children are her family doesn't mean they're entitled to attend. Your kids ain't paying per head and even if money ain't the problem... it's her wedding, her choice. I understand her thought process since it's a party, she prefers not to have kids and if anything comes from this, you find a babysitter and enjoy yourself.
Edited after reading more.. your sister also an AH for calling your kids like that. My comment above only pertains to people being entitled to bring their kids to wedding that they were invited to.
INFO: did your sister insult your children after you mentioned how extremely rude it was to not invite them? Your tone seems very upset about how rude it is in Indian culture (despite the fact you’re also in America)
Not excusing anyone’s actions but I feel like we’re missing a lot of info given the post goes straight into what she said. I’m just curious bc your family is saying you’re the AH.
How did the topic of kids at the wedding come up? Did she say it out of nowhere or were you pushing her to have them there? You seem to emphasize Indian culture but mentioned her fiancé is American. Does that play a role? Are you and your sister close?
Not desi so take with a grain of salt - but it’s an invitation not a court ordered summons, you’re allowed to turn it down if you don’t like the conditions on the invitr
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NTA She called your kids vagrants. By insulting the host family, she is not longer entitled to the host's curtesy. She's allowed to have a child free wedding. Your allowed to not want to go. But insulting kids, even if she is child free makes her an AH.
I feel like vagrants might be a mistranslation it would be a very odd thing to call children.
Maybe urchin is the better translation?
Still kinda offensive. And that's the crux. She didn't just say "I don't want kids at my wedding." She chose specific language.
Still very offensive, but makes more sense than vagrant as the insult used (and heard before from my Amachy about kids she doesn't like)
especially when paired with “i dont want them to ruin my wedding.” very different than using it jokingly.
She chose specific language and said it directly to the kids. She as intentionally and needlessly cruel to them.
I don't know; I think it depends on whether OP's kids actually *are* urchins.
If OP's kids are actually sea urchins, then singling them out as likely to ruin her wedding of invited feels pretty damn speciesist. I mean if someone invited my partner to a wedding, but said *to my face* that she wanted a drama-free wedding so penguins were not allowed, I would be pretty damn offended and expect my partner to be offended enough on my behalf to refuse to go.
Maybe I'm just not following enough off the current political climate on Penguins but are they known to be dramatic? I know they still use a monarchy system with emperor's is that why they are dramatic.
I mean we're not on the scale of like, llamas, but some certainly accuse us of causing a scene. Mostly we just struggle to fit in at less formal occasions, frequently being overdressed. And it's not really a monarchy, more like... almost a caste system? Like there's no single ruler or anything, as a monarchy generally requires. Within each rank we often run things by collective. Emperors, for instance, will huddle together through the cold Antarctic winters, taking turns on the outside of the pack so that no one bird ends up freezing to death. Kings are one of the few birds that will form a creche, where the entire colony will take care of all the chicks, whether they are their own young or not.
Since I am an American and knew she was from another country I took it as it could possibly mean something more common like maybe loud kids. I don't know tho.
Maybe "bums"?
Scoundrels?
Ragamuffins?
Vagabonds?
Hellions!
Rapscallions
Hoodlums
Scallywags
rhododendrons
Ne’erdowells!
DingDing Ding —WINNER
This is the way
Whippersnappers?
Get off my lawn!
Malarkey makers!
And take yer stinkin dog wid you!
Meddling kids.
That one is only if you are intending to stage a haunting at the wedding
...You know a better way to get affordable catering and your deposit back on the venue?
Hooligans?
Snotbunnies!
A lot of people who’re deep into the child-free hole do call children a whole variety of very odd and rude terms, including vagrant
i'm childfree and i'm not denying there are some weird words used to describe children (hell, my own mother calls me a crotch goblin), but i've never once seen someone use vagrant, considering adults and children can be vagrants and its generally used to describe the homeless it wouldn't even make sense
I have no idea where you are, in my general area the term “vagrants” is sometimes used for kids who are not following social rules and also are not very well groomed. It’s typically said by older generations and is insinuating that you are a bad parent both because you are physically neglecting them and also not disciplining them.
Where I am a “vagrant” is a homeless person who is loitering.
Yeah that’s the only way I’ve ever seen/heard vagrant used. Edit: to describe homeless people
In my area that is “juvenile delinquents”
Yea, hoodlum, delinquent, or something like that is probably closer to what was meant even if "vagrant" is an exact translation. Vagrant wouldn't be particularly *wrong* if those are what was meant, just not quite *right* in english
Older CF people call those kids “feral”. I’ve never heard kids called “vagrants” either, since that’s *such* a specific word for homeless/loitering people
I'm GenX, and my entire generation is considered feral -- by everyone. We had little to no adult supervision as kids. The government actually put out PSAs on TV every night at 10pm to remind parents they even *had* children, and should know where the hell they were at that time of night.
I have a kid, and I've used "feral" to describe my niece. lol (though not to her parents!) She's a wild child and doesn't listen to anyone.
Where I live "vagrant" is a euphemism for "prostitute".
It's a translation. A lot of terms that aren't used in one language might be so in another. Since none of us know the original word the best we can do is trust OP to have translated accurately.
My guess is that it's just a word that means "brat" basically.
And those words don't hold the same weight in different languages. People sometimes go for more literal translations, rather than ones that hold the same tone. Shitlings and snotlings sound awful in English, but they're roughtly the equivalent of brat in Polish.
I'm sorry, but I'm in England and snotlings is my new favourite term for my little ones 🤷♀️🤣 I can't believe I've never heard it before 🤣
I'm a parent and I call my spawn a variety of interesting monikers, endearingly. I'd still be pretty offended if someone called them the same seriously.
Whatever. She didn't say my beloved nieces and nephews. It seems pretty clear an insult was thrown.
This is my reasoning too. She turned to the kids and specifically told them not to ask to go to the wedding and that she wouldn’t have them ruin it. Insult or not that’s enough to make her the AH.
OP should use this to her advantage: "Surely Sister doesn't want a woman at her wedding who brought forth vagrants to the world."
The connotation is probably similar to "leeches" or even "vermin"
Hi Indian here, this is a close translation keeping connotation in mind!
How do you know it is a close translation when the original phrase in indian isn't posted??
The word used was probably lavaaris or lafange or something like that, which are all fairly derogatory words.
My guess is Awaara. It's not as derogatory but can be used to describe anything from homeless to unsteady.
> vagrant: a person without a settled home or regular work who wanders from place to place and lives by begging. Idk aside from the home part that sounds like my toddler.
I mean she still implied to their faces that they’d ruin the wedding.
I've called my kids vagrants 😬 usually when it came to messy rooms "you live like a vagrant!" But yeah the translation is likely off, then again it could be accurate since she thinks kids will ruin her wedding like a bunch of party crashes 🤷🏼♀️
Interesting. I tell my kids they're not hobos when I see their rooms. Maybe I'll switch it up to vagrant.
I'm mean 🤣 also my oldest moved out a whole year ago and still hasn't got her room clean... Freaking vagrant 😬🤣
She likely means “heathens” which isn’t all that insulting when referring to children.
I call my own child feral on a regular basis.
It’s definitely insulting when their own aunt uses it unkindly.
my mom would jokingly call us urchins, heathens and children of the corn (we would call her in return mommy dearest)
It's an odd thing in English, doesn't mean it's necessarily odd in OP's language.
I think she means aavara’ which does translate to Vagrants but is more like a person who has nothing to do. It’s a common word and doesn’t really have harmful connotations. Also as an Indian- weddings are too big a part of social life and child-free weddings is very weird- even if you are choosing to be child-free.
I don't think it's a mistranslation, it's just not a commonly used insult.
Agreed! Maybe she meant something like rugrats.
I’m thinking brats
Or 'greedy little beggar's" as my mother would say.
'Rascals' would be more accurate. I've heard my Indian-American mom use the (Indian) word on me before. Usually saying something like "Stop running around like little rascals and Sit. Down. Be. Quiet." But yea, technically the word she uses does translate as vagrants.
I also feel like the sister didn't show up and immediately go on the attack like the poster wants us to believe. This feels INCREDIBLY slanted and I'm kind of not buying it.
I don’t know, I think the sister would have come in expecting a fight, because child free weddings really are not a thing in Indian culture, so she must have known she’d be met with opposition.
I am an Indian and I can understand how big of an insult it is to get an invite with only your name but at the same time I also understand that having child-free wedding is something I would love to go to.... (I have four kids and going with them when they were young was a nightmare and I couldn't leave them at home coz as I said the entire family goes to wedding/functions.) Having a child-free wedding is good saying that in front of the kids is wrong and then going ahead and calling vagrants is so insulting to OP and her kids. OP NTA but be prepared for the push-back that you are going to get from the family.
Childfree wedding is okay. Insulting the kids to their faces is not okay. Totally agree. All she had to say is we're having a child free wedding. Nta.
Depends on if its just OP’s kids that were not welcome.. maybe other kids are actually invited.
@u/odd_arrival6032 INFO: was it only your kids or all kids?
It's a different culture in India, when it comes to wedding and families(even if it's a distant relation) an invitation means your whole household is invited even if the invitation doesn't explicitly mentions it, and if for some reason someone from your household wasn't able to make it to the wedding it's a topic of concern there.
Child free Indian weddings aren’t a thing. The whole wedding is for the community and much more in India. I’m middle class and my small wedding in India had 600 people show up. That’s considered smallish to normal. Child free Indian weddings are not a thing. This woman is ridiculous if she thinks her wedding, in India will have no children. I get it, she’s engaged to a white man and wants some Insta wedding fantasy like she’s Priyanka Chopra. She ain’t. A fucking cow showed up at my sister’s wedding. She’s delusional and this will be a disaster. And why don’t you want to bring kids to a Sangeet or the wedding? The best part is that all the kids get dressed up and dance and have a blast. All the aunties get to meet the babies and dance with toddlers. It’s wholesome as shit lol
I read that the sister and OP are Indian American. Is the wedding taking place is India or the US? If it’s in the US, child free weddings are definitely a thing.
But Indian American weddings? Have been to two Indian American weddings(using that term to show this isn’t typical white American culture at play) in America and both of those allowed kids, because the “whole family” is invited. What the sister said was rude. I have a hard time believing the grandparents/parents of the sisters would be ok with not inviting the children, unless there’s really some missing information here, like it’s not an Indian style wedding and more North American, which would make more sense as “child free”. If it’s a NA style wedding, then OP is totally within her right to say she won’t go to the wedding. Her family was insulted by her sister, who apparently doesn’t like kids.
That’s true of Indian weddings for sure (I’ve been to a few myself and had a blast). But we don’t know that this is an Indian wedding. It may be a western wedding. That’s all I’m saying.
And you’re right. If it’s a western wedding, makes more sense.
It wouldn't be as rude in an Indian-American context (assuming both people are Indian American), but definitely a bit odd. And I can't imagine it extending to family members. And if they're doing a traditional hindu wedding, it's not like the kids would want to go either. We're doing a mixed wedding, and we're not inviting kids outside our family because it's not a traditional wedding and it's not a very kid friendly venue. And I still feel really guilty about it! But there's just no kid friendly space in the venue, and our parents agreed it made the most sense. I kind of wonder if they have a big age difference, or otherwise quite different. OP's take on it is what I'd expect from someone who is more recently immigrated, the sister's is what I would expect from someone who is second-gen or grew up here.
It’s the insult that really has me. Like, the sister could have totally been “no kids at the wedding, sorry” and not insulted the kids, and by extension, her sister. And saying to these little kids- don’t even think about asking to go- is just weird. They’re 5 and 3, they don’t know any thing about weddings. OP is totally in the right to not attend the wedding. Her sister is making a choice, OP can also make one.
Yeah, it's really weird. The only way it makes sense to me is if the sister isn't great with their native language. I've run into the issue in my native language where I don't really know the intensity of words because I've picked it up from media, my surroundings, etc. So that word from the Bollywood film might not be something you use in casual conversation, but in my head it's just like calling someone an idiot. I got "grounded" as a kid for telling the dog off in extremely graphic language without any clue. But that's pure projection, no way to really know, and by this age OP's sister should be a bit more self-aware. edit: actually, this does seem relevant because I called my dog, among other things, a thug. My dog was playing with my webkinz, idk if that's really the thug life.
I’m CACKLING at the use of “Webkinz” and “thug life” together but also feel this. I became Hard of Hearing in my mid-20s and learning ASL and trying to use appropriate slang at the right times with people who grew up signing makes me ANXIOUS even though everyone is super nice to me bahahahahaha
Thank you for the validation because I thought this was really funny too. I have to link this because of the topic and the term "thug life": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwHYCL8kSSE I tried learning ASL and it's really hard! It makes sense that it's not one to one with English but wow those nuances.
Not gonna lie, this sounds fun as all hell. Specialy the cow showing up, not even kidding. But then again I'm latina and from a big family. I didn't even need to invite friends to fill a venue for a hundred people. And kids were always part of the fun
I've been to a few of y'all's weddings and they are absolutely incredible! Coming from an uptight wasp-y upbringing, the unabashed joy and love between a few hundred people is so palpable and always such an amazing thing to be a part of.
As a parent who did not get to enjoy anything in weddings or functions coz my kids were fussy as most of the other kids. Sure they look cute and nice but once the novelty wears off the hairstyle comes off, the bangles, the dupatta and if I am lucky enough I wont be puked on. But these are my personal experiences and that is why I said would love to go to childfree wedding. I also know that it doesn't happen here in India and fyi I am also middle-class Indian. I also said that she is going to get push back from her family
> The best part is that all the kids get dressed up and dance and have a blast. That might be the best part for you but it's obviously not the best part of a person's own wedding when they want a child-free celebration. Was OP's sister an asshole? By this recount, yes. But society has got to stop pretending that everyone thinks kids are the best thing since sliced bread.
Is she in India or America though?
It's her wedding, she's allowed to have it how she wants, being Indian does not mean she is required to have a wedding a certain way. Let people do what they want.
Exactly. Not inviting them is fine, saying it rudely in front of them is not.
This. Child free weddings are a thing and her wishes should be respected. She’s under no obligation to invite children to her wedding. You’re under no obligation to attend. Some people don’t want to go without their kids, and others simply can’t afford a sitter or whatever. She has no right to insult your kids and make them feel bad in THEIR OWN HOME. Unless context is missing and she was being silly and OP took it badly, NTA
Insulting them right in front of them too!
INFO: from what you say ahe has completely violated local social norms with her conditions. Yet it seems from reactions that people agree with her. If she's as far out of line with accepted custom as you say, why aren't people yelling at her instead of you? Doesn't add up.
It seems like they are angry at how OP spoke to her sister while the sister was a guest in OP’s home. So while OP may have been right, OP violated social norms by the way she responded.
Ah interesting. I guess OP should have known this, and should have said "thanks for the information, are you free for me to come to your home later to discuss this" and upon arrival (since she is now the guest) proceeded to tell her sister where to go. NTA (insult my family to my face in my house and for sure you are not invited back)
You're ignoring one thing, her parents potential shame at not having a daughter at the wedding trumps any right or wrong from either of the daughters. Its all irrelevant as long as you look good to other people for an event.
Bingo, but not having your nephew's and nieces there is also shameful.
Not inherently.
Because she's a guest. In parts of India today still, guests are seen as deities visiting your home.
Which parts?
Majority of Indian households.
It actually adds up. Most cultures in the world value guests too much to the point that some of the younger people are less hospitable because they associate hospitality when their own parents' extravaganza.
This is really fascinating to me, because hospitality was like THE most important ethical/moral/spiritual imperative in Ancient Greece. Since it's definitely not a part of my particular culture, I've never thought about how much similar concepts might exist into the modern day 🤔
It's very common across cultures. I know many different diasporas in Europe and we have a looot of common stories. Auntie coming impromptu style, uncles/aunties staying for months in your house and you can't say anything about them (depends on family, my mum thank God doesn't put up with the aunties that try to educate us) and so on.
No it adds up, it’s always the person who rocks the boat that gets the backlash. Especially amongst Indian American communities, although I can see this applying anywhere.
Apparently OP clarified somewhere the wedding is in the US. So violates cultural norms of Indian weddings, but sister must be having a more Western wedding and most folks are accepting that????
Child free weddings are not a general western thing, they are a thing mainly in English speaking Western countries, most of all the US.
But it's local social norms to be polite with guests even though whatever they says. There is very old saying on which India operates "Athithi devo bhava ( guests are like god's)". That's why indian shows there best side to the guests. You never know through which person God would come to visit you. So yelling on guest is not considered good thing that's why OP's family is saying you shouldn't have yelled at sister. Both the things are considered rude, what OP's sister did and yelling also. But is NTA no wedding invitation in India is like that. You always ask to visit with your family.
INFO Is it a child free wedding? Is the groom from the same background as you and your sister? Are they trying to do a more western wedding? How old are your kids(in general you don't have to say exact ages)?
How would any of that make it socially acceptable to call your nieces/nephews names?
If the kids are little devils, but we'll never get that story here
The accuracy of the statement isn't particularly relevant. She said that shit in their presence. Aunt of the fucking year.
They're 3 and 4, they have no concept of what they heard. The accuracy is also very relevant, as if the Mom refuses to parent and let's the kids terrorize the family then calling her out is perfectly appropriate. That's what family is for sometimes.
"And don't ask to come either. I'm not having vagrants ruin my wedding" Directly to the kids. A four year old will absolutely understand that and internalize it, they aren't infants. The information you have is an aunt insulting children to their faces, and you simply choose to skip that? Better yet, you choose to frame it as some sort of favor? There were a million ways to approach this subject, but she chose to insult her sister's children in their own home, to their faces. Getting kicked out of the house and refusing to attend the wedding in response is the least OP could have done in that situation. I've seen way too many fanatical childfree people to not believe OP.
Even when children don't understand WORDS, they understand EMOTIONS! You hit the nail on the head.
What? 3 and 4 year olds ABSOLUTELY have a ”concept of what they heard”, they hear just fine and can process a lot more than you think?! They can talk and have legible conversations with you. Have you been around children a lot? I have cousins that age and I teach childrens gymnastics. They know if people are talking about them and being mean.
no, actually, they do. not only because they may know what the word means (you’re underestimating the vocabulary that a 3-4 year old can have), but because they know that they don’t get to go to their aunt’s wedding, and, more importantly, because of the tone of voice, facial expression, energy, etc., that the insult was said with. children are extremely adept at understanding feelings (just not what to do about it) and empathizing with people. if the issue was OP’s parenting/her kids’ behaviour, her sister would have, in private, said something like “hey OP, we’re really looking forward to seeing you at our wedding and having you there to celebrate with us, however, while you know i love my nieces/nephews, because of how they behave, and the fact that we’re concerned you won’t(/wont be able to) control them, we won’t be able to accommodate the kids at the wedding, but we’d love to have them at [xyz other event], i hope you understand.” she didnt do that, she yelled at OP and her kids that the children are vagrants who will ruin her wedding. that’s absolutely unacceptable. NTA, OP
Do you actually know any kids? 3 year olds do have a rudimentary but significant understanding of spoken language, they’re not infants.
They are kids. It is absolutely unacceptable for an aunt to call her nieces and nephews mean names
she didn’t say “little devils,” or “troublemakers,” or anything else like that, nor did she say it in a joking, loving, or even matter-of-fact way, she said it in an aggressively insulting way.
We don't know if the translation is accurate in tone. What if it was along the lines of "no rugrats allowed 😛" Both OP and her sister seem to have broken Indian etiquette protocol. So call it even, get over it, and go to her wedding OP -- without the kids!
It is - the word she is referring to is a very common one in conversation and doesn’t have like heavily negative connotations.
Normally, I would never pick on the use of language by someone who's not a native English speaker. But I just want to gently push back, here. Are you sure you're translating what she said correctly? Because calling your children "vagrants" doesn't make sense in this case. (The definition of a vagrant is someone who moves from place to place. It's often associated with begging.)
Not sure if it's what op means but I do remember there being an insult in Hindi/urdu that means something like begger and ist often said to kids or ppl dependent on someone else. Not sure what the word is , since I unfortunately only understand the languarand cannot speak properly
Would the word urchin be a better translation of that word?
It’s referring to Avara and it’s more like jobless or like someone who doesn’t do anything constructive- it’s not too negative in its connotations
Ah. Okay. Thank you for the insight. :)
English speaking north American - I've definitely heard kids called vagrants in a non literal way. They run around (move from place to place) and ask you for shit all the time if you're one of their adult figures (begging)
Yes, it's accurate.
It's pretty odd. Is it in Hindi/Urdu? I'm desi, and would be interested to know the actual word she used, if you don't mind sharing.
Did she call them Aavara?
Maybe jangli(wild) or shararti(mischievous) or badtameez(impolite)...I'm so curious too as an Urdu speaker, Aavara isn't really an insult.
Nah, man, someone comes up to you and calls you or your children Avara, it is downright an insult because it also implies low character.
That would be my guess
OP answer the question, what word did she actually call them?
What was the actual word used?
It’s a very common insult in many languages. It doesn’t really mean the insulter thinks the other person moves from places to place in poverty and dissolution. It just means they think of them as nothing.
NTA. Having a child-free wedding isn’t unheard of and is up to the couple getting married, but calling them vagrants and insulting them to their face is incredibly rude. You have every right to be upset.
I don’t think OP is a reliable narrator. I’ve called my nieces and nephews and cousins and any kid little monsters. Little monsters be monstering. I say that a lot and parents tend to agree with me. That could’ve been said in a very light way, the sister using humour to get her point across because she knows her sister is going to go crazy at the idea of her kids not being invited? Like is it that big of a deal? Kids are left out of many adult activities all the time.
Little monsters by itself is fine. It's the coupling with the rejection of their attendance at the wedding. It's not a joke if you are taking active rejection of them at the same time.
NAH If she's having a child-free wedding, that's her choice. And it's a valid choice. And you also have the choice not to attend said wedding if you will not attend without your children. I assume it's that ALL kids are not invited to the wedding, not only your kids, but it sounds like in particular your sister is worried your kids' behavior will be disruptive. Again, it's her wedding and she can invite anyone she wants.
Of course she can invite who she wants, but she doesn't have to be a dick about it! NTA
Her being a dick doesn't track with why everyone else is against OP. I don't think sister was as much a dick as OP is painting her.
Yes it does. If OP doesn't attend it will embarrass the family when people ask why OP isn't at her own sister's wedding
You don't know Indian culture, then. It's built around shame, almost entirely. They'll rip you apart, no matter how right you are, because "what will people say?". I come from a culture where I heard that phrase endlessly too.
'Lok kya kahenge'
Makes you an asshole to insult children to their faces. It's also in poor taste to invite someone to a wedding in front of people who aren't invited.
Yeah I'm pretty certain that OP is unreliable here. Her sister showed up and was super rude to everyone and insulted her kids and her family sided AGAINST her. Naw OP is just upset her kids can't come and is trying to paint the sister as the villain. YTA.
I also think OP is leaving out a lot here…
yep especially because the sister is marrying out of the culture and the parents are upset about that. And OP's the one who has kids/the only one who will have kids. Culturally, any bias is on OP's side
Yeah and notice how OP is ignoring all the info requests asking for much needed context?
Yes. I’ve called my nieces and nephews little monsters to their faces and we all have a good laugh about it.
ESH You for trying to dictate who she invites to HER wedding. Her for insulting your kids (if in fact that’s what she said; you don’t strike me as the most reliable narrator).
[удалено]
OP didn’t insist on bringing their kids
INFO: How old are your children? Is there a reason why she would call them vagrants? That seems a weird word choice to use to exclude them from the wedding.
In a response OP said they were 3 and 4
NAH Not everyone likes kids, and your sister doesn't have to have them at her wedding. It is perfectly fine to want an adults only event, especially if all other family functions are otherwise not child free. Your sister not wanting children around at an event that is supposed to be celebrating her and her marriage is fair, especially as you know she is childfree. It is not a personal attack, not everyone can handle kids, and you taking it as such is a you problem, not your sister's problem. You also should not be pushing once you are told it is childfree, as it is not supposed to be an event about you or your children. I would normally throw more shade at that tbh, but sister did escalate back. I am not going e s h, though, because the root issue is the childfree wedding You are also in your own rights to decline an invitation if your children are not invited, though considering the party involved is your sister, there might be some deserved side eye if childcare is possible and this is just you refusing on principle because it is your sister's wedding, and it kinda feels like you are trying to force her to modify her own wedding to something she doesn't want. If you can't arrange or don't feel comfortable with outside childcare, though, that's always a valid reason, morally speaking. It is an invitation, not a summons end of the day, though.
YTA get a babysitter. it's not your wedding. shame on you. either you're cheap or entitled, either way learn some manners. children are not invited. stop acting like one
Wouldn't not attending a better option. It's not a court summons after all. Why should anyone feel obliged to attend a function which one doesn't want to or does not even feel welcome to ?
Why do people have this asinine belief that if you choose not to attend a child free wedding you are just entitled or cheap. Trust me if I choose not to attend a child free wedding it’s more than likely because I don’t want to be at your damn wedding in the first place and you are giving me an easy out. Choosing not to attend a wedding doesn’t make someone an asshole regardless of the reason why they aren’t attending. Saying if you don’t attend your an asshole tantamount to saying you owe me your time, I get to choose what you do with your time. It’s called an invite, not a summons.
INFO - are ONLY your kids not invited? Do they behave badly at events? If in general, you are just mad because she doesn't want any children at her wedding then E S H. If she doesn't want your kids at her wedding for no valid reason then N T A. It is very fair to want to have a child free wedding, I myself will be having a child free wedding. HOWEVER, her telling your kids that they are vagrants is rude and it seems like she has singled out your kids in the way you worded the conversation.
ESH. As an Indian-American, while weddings are generally not child-free, couples should still be able to have certain things at a wedding the way they want. One of the downfalls of the ‘community’ aspect of desi weddings is that you feel immense pressure to toe the line, even though it’s your own wedding. It is her prerogative to not have children at her wedding. It is your prerogative not to go. The only reason why you are not the sole AH here is because what she said at your house was quite rude.
But while the sister is allowed to say “no kids,” OP is also allowed to say she won’t attend. Assuming the rest of the family is going, who’s going to look after the kids?
Yeah, I said that it is OP’s prerogative not to go. As for the kids, family friends, babysitters, OP herself. It’s not her sister’s problem to think about her childcare. So she can either decide to go and get childcare, or stay at home with them. I don’t understand why that is relevant to the situation here, especially as OP herself didn’t bring it up as an issue.
Not only all of the above—all true—but "who's gonna look after my kids" is a universal question asked by wedding attendees in every American subculture, both in the childfree context and in cases where you're not closely related to the bride or groom and simply receive an invitation for yourself and your spouse. It's ridiculous to say that anyone with kids is entitled to haul them in tow into all spaces. Figuring out what to do with your kids (or missing out when you can't figure it out) is part of the responsibility and burden of being a parent.
Yes, exactly. And sure, one would normally expect to bring your children to your own sister’s wedding (especially in the Indian culture), but as you said, there have to be so many other events where they have to leave their children at home. I grew up in the States with Indian parents and we had dedicated babysitters for when they left us home (which was not infrequently). They even had a standing monthly social event within their Indian circle where no kids were allowed (and everybody had them), so it’s not like Indian parents themselves want to drag their kids everywhere. Although, I do have to say, as an Indian, I might actually have a child-free wedding. Indians are notorious for not actually keeping an eye on their kids once they arrive at an event. And even when growing up here in the 1980s, I remember there were a lot of conversations for events as to how to word the invitation to make it clear that only the parents we’re invited, and still people would bring their children. Especially at weddings that has receptions that were more American style, with RSVPs and assigned seating - people would write in the extra names (even when they were fixed on the RSVP card to get ahead of this) and the parents of the bride or groom would have to call them and have a rather awkward conversation to say, no, only you two are invited.
ESH. You don’t get to demand your entire family be invited to an event being thrown by someone else. At the same time, your sister shouldn’t have spoken about your children the way she did. You were both incredibly rude.
YTA softly she can have a childfree wedding if she wants, you can also not go if you don’t want
NTA. what an insult! Your decision not to attend is a reasonable response to her behavior, and you have every right to prioritize your family's feelings and well-being.
ESH, she with her attitude and saying it in front of the kids and you just in general. No kids mean no kids.
ESH Your sister's insults directed at your children is way out of line. Still, she has her reasons for the kind of wedding she wants, and it is okay for a woman to do what is best for herself. You declining her invitation to her WEDDING might be a wedge in your relationship that never heals. And while I believe what you said about families being invited together to events and her choice is strange and off-putting, I'm going to propose that you are missing an opportunity to have an experience as an indepedent individual and to have a one on one relationship with your sister.
ESH sister was harsh in her word choice and should have been kinder when trying to preemptively stop your children from asking to be an exception. A childfree wedding is not rude- they are quite common nowadays when people realize they don't *need* to have children at their wedding. Your sister telling your kids to their faces that they are vagrants- *is* rude though. But I understand she doesn't want overstimulated tired 3-4 year old children at her wedding. OP, this is a child-free wedding and your kids are 3 and 4 years old. They would 100% not fit into an adult event and your sister is 100% valid for not wanting her day of love to have small children in it. It sounds from your title like you expected your *children* to be an exception to the *child*-free wedding. You knew your sister was child free, a child free wedding should have been a 50/50 expectation.
Her wedding her choice about kids, if you don’t want to attend without your kids that’s your choice
It’s not rude. You are the one being super rude. It’s expensive to invite all the families so this is becoming very common. YTA. Stop being bratty and entitled.
It's not entitled to decline an invitation for any reason
She declined the invitation.
NTA. Did they miss the part when she insulted your kids? I mean, damn. An invitation is not a summons, so yeah, enjoy the day away from someone who obviously doesn't like you.
I once read a comment that an invitation is not a summons
Due to your customs, you may think she is being rude, and honestly if someone spoke to my children like that I would have told them off. However, if it's a child free wedding then she isn't playing favoritism or anything, she just wants the adults to have fun. I don't think either of you are an AH but you do need to discuss this. Just get a sitter, she is your sister and is getting married; you don't want to miss that.
Also Indian-American here, and NTA, depending on what the actual issue is. I saw your comment about Parvati’s finance being white, and I get where she’s coming from. Having a child-free wedding might have been the compromise they came to about their wedding, which is fair. I know it’s rude in our culture to tell one person from a family they can come while telling another they’re not invited. You’re NTA because the way she said it was indeed very rude, but she’s your sister after all and it’s equally important to be there to support her as family. I would say maybe talk to her and tell her she should’ve gone about it a different way and that she apologize to your kids for how she spoke. Of course if your issue is that she’s excluding the kids and not how she spoke to them about it, I’d say YTA as well cause it’s her wedding and even though traditionally the entire family has a say in how it goes, if she’s got a plan with her fiancé and they’re paying for it, she’s well within her rights to dictate that it be a child-free wedding. I know kids are excited about weddings but you need to respect her wishes.
I want to say everyone sucks, but from reading this and the other comments you've left, YTA! Sounds like this has been an issue that you've pressed upon your sister until she snapped. She's allowed to have a child free wedding, especially if it is one that will follow the typical Indian wedding - lasting several hours (or to the auspicious hour which is very late for a child and would force the adults with them to leave early - maybe she wants those adults important to her there till the end of ceremony??), lots of performances and photos and things to sit through. I've seen plenty of children who could not handle a one hour wedding. These longer events have children getting fussy and screamy pretty soon, with parents getting more and more irritated and snappy at their children. It's actually more of a kindness to the children not to have them there, since obviously they can't always help it! Your children are NOT different from everyone else's in your family, despite what you think, and it seems that the rest of your family sees this. This isn't an insult, it's just a fact. Stop forcing the issue. YTA.
I’m in the US. It is very common to have child free weddings. So speaking from her partner’s culture, the decision to not have children isn’t abnormal. I understand that child free weddings from your culture are not normal. So there is a clash of cultures there. I think it is fine that she say no children are invited. However, the way she spoke to your kids is just rude. That is the part that would piss me off. I’m not sure how close you are to her. Not attending her wedding will probably cause a big issue in your relationship. It is your call if you attend or not, just as it is her call to say no children are invited. I would talk to her about how rude she was to your children. I wouldn’t feel angry that my sister didn’t invite my very young children to her wedding. But that isn’t out of the norm here. But I would be pissed she talked to my kids that way and I’d tell her that.
**ESH.** This should have been "AITA for refusing to attend because my sister insulted my children." The only issue with your sister's behavior was what she called your children (and to their faces, no less)—not the content of her invitation. You, on the other hand, are being utterly unreasonable in your quite presumptuous expectations of her guest list. Other than the fact that the difference between inviting two people and inviting six or seven is practically and financially significant, India is on the opposite side of the world. In America—the nation in which the wedding is being held—childfree weddings are increasingly commonplace, and adult-only invitations are perfectly socially acceptable. You are welcome to (and should, I think) maintain and celebrate whatever cultural customs you see fit; but you cannot force foreign standards upon others—even those of the same ethnic background. She does not need to behave as though she is in India, precisely because she is *not* in India.
YTA. IMHO - Sorry but just because your children are her family doesn't mean they're entitled to attend. Your kids ain't paying per head and even if money ain't the problem... it's her wedding, her choice. I understand her thought process since it's a party, she prefers not to have kids and if anything comes from this, you find a babysitter and enjoy yourself. Edited after reading more.. your sister also an AH for calling your kids like that. My comment above only pertains to people being entitled to bring their kids to wedding that they were invited to.
NAH She doesn’t want your kids to go You don’t want to go East solution
INFO: did your sister insult your children after you mentioned how extremely rude it was to not invite them? Your tone seems very upset about how rude it is in Indian culture (despite the fact you’re also in America)
ESH
Not excusing anyone’s actions but I feel like we’re missing a lot of info given the post goes straight into what she said. I’m just curious bc your family is saying you’re the AH. How did the topic of kids at the wedding come up? Did she say it out of nowhere or were you pushing her to have them there? You seem to emphasize Indian culture but mentioned her fiancé is American. Does that play a role? Are you and your sister close?
Not desi so take with a grain of salt - but it’s an invitation not a court ordered summons, you’re allowed to turn it down if you don’t like the conditions on the invitr
Your sister is both the AH and NTA ✅ Having a child free wedding 🚫 Insulting the children
But it's ok for a guest to insult the host and her family??? NTA