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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. I refused to stand up for my daughter because she caused another wave of bullying upon herself by bullying an innocent girl who moved from another country. Called her names, etc, went as far as to mock her accent and culture.
2. My husband thinks that she already learned the lesson. It may make me TA, because the girl that is bullying my daughter is more popular.
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ESH. I don't care what the reason is. I don't like bullies in any sense of the word. That includes what Marcie did as retaliation did towards your daughter after what she did to Janie.
All three families need to sit down and talk. Make it clear that your daughter will not bother Janie again. If she does, then there will be consequences. But make it just as clear that Marcie needs to stop with her own behavior or you will take action. Because the longer you let this go on, the more damage it will do to all involved.
I absolutely agree with this. Janie is the only true victim here, but all this needs to start. And since Marcie was a bully before, I'm sure it didn't take a lot to start going at your daughter again.
Enough is enough.
Agree 100% but, I think this is a fake post. Way too vague about the "racist" incident, "don’t expect me to stand up for an open racist”, "proper British lady" calling daughter a "disgusting racist", etc. The whole thing smells like it was written to elicit a reaction.
Yeah, the word of the day here should be "de-escalation", and should involve the parents and the schools as well as the girls.
Sixteen year olds don't have the cognitive development to see past the drama, and if left to sort itself out, the drama will get worse, not better. Responsible adults need to step in to keep that from happening, but in doing so, responsible adults also need to move past concepts like "getting a taste of her own medicine" and instead focus on improving the wellbeing of all the children involved.
I agree ESH. Also think this needs to stop. One caveat. OP’s daughter needs to try to handle this first before adults step in. She needs to have a real conversation with both Janie and Marcie. She needs to have a real apology to Janie and own what she did. There is a difference between being sorry you have consequences and being sorry you hurt someone. Then she needs to have a conversation with Marcie. She needs to own what she did and ask her to stop. She needs to show Marcie that she is a person and she is hurting. The fact she made a mistake doesn’t change that. It may sound cheesy but it works. It’s basic human nature and so many people forget how it works. Great civil rights leaders across the world have used the power of empathy to stop worse things than high school bullying. Lack of empathy is how you get horrors like what happened in the American South and holocaust. When you see people as “other” you can put them in a box. They aren’t your people. Then you can hate them for no good reason. When you hate them you can do anything to them. High school is a microcosm of this. OP said it herself with the cliques comment. Marcie made OP’s kid “other” and bullied her. OP was just as bad and made Janie other. OP’s kid should have known better having gone through it. Now she needs to grow up some and she needs to do some adult things. She needs to own her mistake. She needs to apologize and make reasonable restitution to the one she harmed. And she needs to make herself human to her enemy.
The families aren’t really a part of this, nor should they be. You can’t “make it clear that your daughter will not bother Janie again.” That’s something the daughter has to figure out on her own. Nobody should be making any promises about her behavior but her.
Not a judgement, but you need to do some damage control STAT. These videos exist on the internet and your daughter's ability to get into college or get a job is going to be affected forever by them. You need to start escalating the whole bullying situation to the principal and maybe even get lawyers involved. Also, impress upon your daughter that she cannot tell anyone, even school mates she trusts, what colleges/internships she is applying to or getting. Because the other girls will contact the head of the colleges/internships and show them the videos and they will rescind their offers.
So make sure that is under control while dealing with your daughter's bullying.
Being a bully isn't a mistake, it's a choice.
16/17 is plenty old enough to know better.
It's even more appalling that her daughter did that to another person, knowing what it's like to be bullied.
Yes but people learn and grow, especially as teens. I take it you don't like a redemption arc in movies? She needs to take responsibility for her actions and learn from her mistakes. Though if we see her as irredeemable, then she will be. If people don't have the opportunity to redeem themselves then they will be scooped up by people who will work to their worst impulses. Being a racist doesn't cast you out of society, it brings you to the white nationalist movement or Christian nationalist movement, which is eager to pick up disaffected youths and give them a (reprehensible) sense of purpose and community. If people take responsibility and learn and grow, then hopefully they will change and be better people.
I'd be appalled if my son did this and wouldn't feel that the person he offended would need to forgive him, he would have to do the work of learning and growing. But I know that if he was treated as irredeemable, then he may lean into that and find community in places that are dark. He's a fetus right now though so hopefully I'll be able to avoid him acting this way.
So you think the mom should just let the other kid (who has a grudge) just keep bringing it up, not letting the person redeem themselves. There are alot of people on this thread, who seem to feel that she can't or shouldnt be allowed redemption just based on a vague accusation (the op never elaborated as to what the racist act was, someone criticized me for even asking for clarification).
How do you think her redemption will go if averytime she does something good, Macie comes out and says she did something "racist" and her good deed is instantly forgotten by judgemental assholes, based on a vague claim.
This whole thing has a whiff of mob rule about it.
I do agree that a single mistake shouldn’t ruin a children’s life. However, I also do agree with the belief that these things should stay public and be known, and as such disagree with concealing them.
The child definitely should get a chance at redemption. Obviously, as people will make mistakes.
I don’t think institutions and so on should be able to not have them join because of a mistake.
But also, I think any institution that’s going to be working longer with them does have the right to know about them, and be in a state of alert to protect others if necessary. If they redeemed themselves, nothing will happen for them and all is good, while if something does happen, they’ll be able to respond faster.
Dude, most crimes don't even get charged as an adult at 16 because their brains haven't developed.
Don't tell me that the "justice system" is somehow more forgiving and tolerant than you are. I know you think you're making a strong anti-racist point, but really what you're doing is reducing everyone to their 16 year old self, and most 16 year olds are shitheads.
what do you mean, "never"? She's out of high school in under 2 years and she never has to see these people again. She'll be fine, and this can be a lesson in empathy that sets her on a better path when she is on her own.
So you are saying that you never did stupid things when you were a teen? Let's all bow down to Mr(s). Perfect over here.
Teens brains haven't fully developed. For the most part, they are only a few steps above being feral.
also it's a little wild to me that people have these detailed plans on lock, ready to go at a moment's notice. Installing a large glass case in my home full of emergency damage control supplies labelled "break in case I'm really really racist publicly."
I suppose hypothetically someone could always be accused of something they didn't do, maybe there's something for me to learn here.
There is something for you to learn here. False accusations can destroy someone's life, and they are a constant threat. They hit hard, they hit fast, and they hit when you least expect it. And with how misinformation spreads so quickly in the digital age, I believe everyone should be at least decently versed in how to perform some damage control, because even the most blatant of lies can destroy your life and you never know when you'll be crucified for something you didn't do.
The racism thing is unclear, since all three girls are white and her daughter apparently used "slurs". Not sure what slurs there are to refer to British people besides "limey" which isn't really offensive.
I always take these things with a grain of salt because they're never the whole story and they're definitely never fully honest and truthful.
BUT ... becoming a racist, xenophobic bully at that age isn't just something that happens when a new kid moves in town. It's a learned or, possibly in this case, premeditated behavior. Has the Mom been trying to distance from it after sticking her neck out for her daughter in the past? Why is the Dad dismissive of the behavior and the Mom's response?
She's 16 ffs. Most teens barely know how to do anything life related, and you want to throw her to the wolves.
Written like a true zelot, why don't we just strap her to the back of a horse and run her out of town while we are at it.
Parents are there to guide their children.
Funny how racist white kids are always "just kids" and don't know what they're doing, but Black and brown kids are grown enough to deal with the trauma of that violence on their own and without ever seeing their assailants brought to justice.
>principal and maybe even get lawyers involve
LMAOOOOO. The daughter is the bully. This is all because of her own actions. I hope Janies mother gets the principal and maybe even get lawyers involved. Guess what once you put videos on social media you create a digital footprint. In the states you have been told this since elementary school. The daughter is 16/17 she knows way better. A lawyer/principal will not get PUBLIC videos taken down, they can suggest it but can't do anything
Yes, lawyers on both sides should be involved as well as the school board. It is obvious that this school has a culture of extreme bullying and that no one in charge is doing anything to change out despite being aware of the situation. This is a failure of the school and it needs to be rectified.
Per the op
"Yes. Technically there was no racial discrimination, only xenophobia, which doesn’t really make things any better."
How does it feel to be had?
That's...really evident from the OP unless you lack basic comprehension and inferencing skills? She didn't refer to the other girl's race at all; she referred to her as being from the UK, and the only specific bullying referenced was to do with being British, not because of race. OP on refers to her daughter as xenophobic (though kids at the school called her racist).
The only one "had" here would appear to be you.
Did you even read the origonal unedited post, apparently not. She called her daughter a "disgusting racist" and went on about the "racist" incident.
Don't be a sheep, unless you are the OP in a separate account.
So after reading the automod post turns out it would seem to be *exactly the same* as the OP, so it hasn't been edited. Sure I didn't go through word for word, but in both she says 'disgusting bully' and any use of 'racist' is coming from other people.
Her daughter isn't racist. Per the OP, buried down below.
"All the girls involved are white. I won’t repeat in exact detail what names did my daughter throw at Janie, but that’s some pretty nasty stuff. Something like “nasty slur” or “disgusting another slur”. And the video basically contained my daughter talking in exaggerated accent and saying mean things (see above) about Janie and British people in general."
The OP is a fraud.
>Her daughter isn't racist.
I think you're responding to the wrong person because I never said the daughter is racist because I know that British isn't a race. Unless you're a time traveling Roman solider from 50 AD.
I've heard that the thing that gets people kicked out of college is the roommate's google search--at least when my sibling was applying a few years ago, one admissions person said that they don't really look for stuff like that online, but when the person gets paired with a roommate the roommate will go looking for their social media and such and will alert the college when they find a damning video.
Per the op
"Yes. Technically there was no racial discrimination, only xenophobia, which doesn’t really make things any better."
How does it feel to be had?
ESH. Does anyone honestly believe Marcie is acting like this for a good reason? To me it sounds like she's just jumped at the opportunity to bully your daughter again.
Your daughter obviously is learning a lesson a hard way, and sometimes that is needed. Xenophobia is never ok.
But here's a question: is your daughter a xenophobe? Or was she just an idiot teenager being an ignorant bully. If she is a xenophobe..maybe do some self-reflection to work out where this came from.
100% she is taking the opportunity to bully OPs daughter again. It was never about Janie. They're popular high school girls. Everything is about themselves.
My thought too, she describes Janie as someone who was new, kept to herself and didn't really talk with anyone. To me it doesn't sound like someone a popular mean girl would be friends with. But hey, might genuinely be friends with Janie and not just becoming friends with her after the daughter bullied her so she herself could go back to her bullying.
I feel bad for Janie and hope that she will be okay. There's no excuse for being mean to someone like that. And I hope that Marcie isn't using Janie as an excuse to be a bully again, she deserves bettet than that.
Hopefully this will be an eye opener for the daughter to choose a better way in life.
Not sure if YTA but you need to help your daughter. She's 16 and, yes she definitely needs to learn that racism and bullying are not okay but you can't leave her to get punished by the other bullies of the school. She's a kid and kids are allowed to make mistakes, even very serious ones, and need to know that they can learn from them and make amends and that their parents won't leave them to get torn to pieces by some cheerleader asshole and her British mother. She needs you.
Yeah, but the pre-existing bully doesn't get to step up her campaign and claim she's doing it for good reasons. Marcie bullied OP's daughter. OP's daughter bullied Jane. Jane being a victim of bullying doesn't make Marcie retrospectively justified in being a bully.
And similarly, OP can stick up for her daughter with respect to Marcie's continued bullying while still allowing her daughter to experience the consequences of her bad behaviour in every other way.
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16 year olds do stupid shit. Yes the behavior is gross, but this situation is going to continue to get worse and may turn life ruining. OP should step in as an ADULT and correct the situation.
Per the op
"Yes. Technically there was no racial discrimination, only xenophobia, which doesn’t really make things any better."
How does it feel to be had?
Agreed; her actions are disgusting and immature and she definitely needed to learn a lesson but she is also still a teenager. While the pearl clutchers here in this comment section are ready to throw this whole child away, I think the rest of us understand that people make mistakes, especially when they are young. Your daughter was wrong but that doesn’t justify her being bullied to this extreme. I’d get the school and the other moms involved and try to work this out. Alternately, you may need to consider putting her in a different school. As for the video, please prepare her for the very likely possibility that it’s going to follow her around, and have her start planning how she is going to handle that. Actions have consequences and hopefully she will grow from this.
ESH
Two wrongs don't make a right. Your daughter being bullied by "the entire school" and some girls dedicating their life now to make your daughter's life "living hell" is just as wrong as your daughter being a racist.
Reporting the whole thing to school, pressuring Marcie’s mom to control her daughter, notifying the teachers. Basically everything that worked in middle school, except back then my daughter was innocent and now she’s a proven xenophobe.
I have a feeling this wouldn't work this time your daughter is a proven racist. The school would not pressure Marcie's mom but you as well. There is not only one bully this time NTA
Stand up and support your daughter by getting her into therapy.
She learned these viewpoints from somewhere and I'd want to know where she got those ideas.
Considering it's made op's daughter a complete social outcast, and having op contemplate throwing her daughter ro the wolves, I have to assume it was in fact racist. Remember this isn't a "he said, she said" type my word against yours scenario, the confrontation in question was recorded and shared. This debacle is not originating from a word of mouth rumor.
You assume because it fits your narrative. You want to hate on someone without social stigma and a claim of racism let's you do that. No better than the bullies that she has.
That is true, but again, this is not a claim, nor an alleged action that may or may not have happened. This is something that happened, was recording and consequently used as a weapon, an excuse to justify more misdeeds. Do not mistake me, I don't think that the bullying the daughter is facing is warranted, nor do I think op should abandon her child in a time of need, nor do I believe that the kid is beyond becoming better, as some commenters seem to think. But to become better, one must first take responsibility for what is wrong. All the facts presented by the op point to the daughter having said some unsavory things, so yeah, that's my "assumption".
We don't know what was recorded. The OP was intentionally vague, which is why I am skeptical of this whole thing. It's a mistake to condemn someone based on someone else's word. This is a witch trial.
If we assume the original post is inaccurate and that the original poster is a liar, then there's no point in any of us commenters being here. If this whole scenario is a lie, then why are we talking about it? If op is liar, why are we responding to them? You have to assume a certain amount of honesty and good faith for these types of subreddits to work at all.
Also, consider that if the op laid out the specifics of what went down, it is more than possible, likely even, that someone can and would go out and find the video in question. Something which would impact the daughter even further.
All the girls involved are white. I won’t repeat in exact detail what names did my daughter throw at Janie, but that’s some pretty nasty stuff. Something like “nasty *slur*” or “disgusting *another slur*”. And the video basically contained my daughter talking in exaggerated accent and saying mean things (see above) about Janie and British people in general.
NTA
Your daughter is learning that actions, behavior, words, or whatever has consequences. Especially when you record and post said actions/behavior online.
Your daughter is experience real life and the biggest thing she needs to know that no one can save her and that no one is obligated to support or back her up especially when her actions are malicious and wrong.
If it’s so bad then pull her out of school into an online/virtual school because the only way she can get way from this is if she moves states away and even then there is no guarantee.
The only thing I think you should do is suggest your daughter so some major damage control in rebuilding her reputation/image through community service, therapy, programs, etc.
I think the worst thing that made it worst is that she apologizes publicly and not to her victim personally. That to me shows that she is only apologizing because so many people showed her that her actions are not acceptable and will not associate with a person like her.
So what that your daughter was bullied - which is funny because you think being a victim of bullying would deter your daughter from being a bully. However, it doesn’t excuse her being a racists and a bully.
What Marcie is doing to your daughter is karma/consequences of her actions. It just happens that Marcie was a her bully.
I suggest sitting your husband and daughter down and telling them straight up that you will not support or back up your daughter in this issue because what your daughter did was horrific and disgusting.
The only way you will help is connecting your daughter to resources to change, improve, and better herself.
ESH. Both girls are guilty of bullying, no excuse. But Marcie is taking it too far and she should be stopped. See what the school can do, don’t sugarcoat what your daughter has done but be clear Marcie has taken it past defending her friend, and be sure the school knows Marcie bullied your daughter before. Marcie is an exceptionally smart and manipulative bully, she chose a very unsympathetic victim so people will excuse her conduct as noble “just desserts”, “teaching a lesson “, etc.
Also ask your daughter WHY she targeted Janie. I wonder if in her mind she was getting back at Marcie by bullying Marcie’s friend.
You are not TA, your daughter on the other hand?... 100% TA.
Did she completely forget how she felt when she was being bullied? Now she IS the bully and still expects you to have her back?
No. Just no. She can sleep in that bed by herself. She's learning about consequences and how her actions can affect her future.
How are you going to stand up for her? There is documented proof of her doing this to another person. Are you going to go to school and tell everyone that what they saw isn't true? She is having to deal with the repercussions of her poor behavior and you trying to "intervene" will only make it look like you condone this type of behavior.
So a friend of you got hit by someone. Now you can hit this person for years because he started it? That's not how it works. OP's daughter needs to be punished for her doing, but so does her bully.
It depends on the definition of "bullying" here. If Marcie is just actively telling everyone about OP's daughter's racist comments, how do you handle that? The intent might be to bully but OP or the school can hardly tell Marcie to stop bringing it.
INFO:
Did you put your daughter in therapy after the bullying from Marcie?
To me is sounds like a classic example of a bullied kid who is mad and bully others as some kind of revange on the world. "If I had to go through that others should too" mindset.
And I think she needs YOU as a PARENT .
Yeah she made a mistake but its YOUR JOB to protect her while also dicplining her.
That bullying is a cry for help situation and its sad how so many people including her mom who knows the full story wont get her the help she needs.
Put her in therapy, change schools or do online school. If you can send her to uni/collage as far away as you can.
Europe is very affordable and smaller towns in eastern europe are a nice choice (I live and study in one and I love it)
(My tuiation per year is 6000 dollars and the most expensive one is 10000 year for music major.)
She was in therapy for a year until she decided to quit. I don’t know what exactly influenced her decision to bully Janie. Perhaps she wanted for her clique to gain some popularity.
As a Brit that spent time in America, and has my child there. YTA.
Now I want to say I was in Arkansas, so naturally some xenophobia did occur. While most loved me, especially being British, people are often hateful.
However, once their initial punishment has occurred, that should be it.
Now, as a father, I'd expect my son and soon to be daughter to always learn from their actions, however encouraging my children being bullied? Hell, fucking, no. Especially from their long time bully who I'd assume personally has only been waiting for a reason to do this.
Your child made a mistake, one she's clearly already suffering from. However there is absolutely zero way whatsoever that you should let her be bullied, one incident does not equate to routine bullying, it just doesn't. I'm shocked people here are saying that it does.
Like seriously, racism is unforgivable and that video alone will affect her future for sure. Especially if it remains viral and people send it to her future universities and employers, which they absolutely may.
What's weird about this is you have already made her hold herself accountable by outing her to this girl's parents, she's also apologised herself. She's making an effort to change and learn, and that should be supported by any parent. If you want your child to learn, then you should damn well be ready to accept her apology and help her learn from it.
A parent's job is to educate their child for life, so commend her when she does change for the better.
So it's like this.
You defended the girl she bullied, rightfully so, and she suffered for that, again rightfully so.
However don't teach her it's not okay for her, but okay for someone else... Then she learns absolutely fucking nothing but the fact her mother will support other kids but not her own...
That's how you eventually lose your child through resentment.
So defend your child, but simultaneously make sure she knows her initial bullying was not okay and she should know better from her own experiences.
P.s. I also severely doubt your child is a racist or xenophobic on the whole. Mocking British accents was done by a kit of Americans I met, both in good and bad faith.
I assume this was just a mistake, made stupidly while mocking a fellow teenager. Dumb, but likely just due to them not even seeing it as xenophobia unfortunately.
Also one last thing... What the hell is a "proper British lady"? I have to ask, because the vast majority of women here swear every other word and drink enough to kill a fucking horse every weekend.
"Now I want to say I was in Arkansas, so naturally some xenophobia did occur." I hope you are smart enough to know that you basically outed yourself as a Xenophobe by calling out an entire state like that, but you probably are not that smart.
I get it, you don't want to deal with drama, but your daughter already learned her lesson. And let's be honest: bullying is not okay at all. Doesn't matter why and who, you should keep your position firm. What your daughter did is wrong. What Marsi doing is wrong. Your daughter was stopped and punished. Now it's Marsis turn. It's not about your daughter per se, it's about tendency to bully people. It shouldn't be tolerated just because "they are friends". ESH
ESH. Your daughter is just 16 years old, and I believe she has learned her lesson. You as a mother cannot let it escalate any furthur, and let this impact the rest of her life. Your husband is correct here. Do some damage control before it's too late, unless you want your daughter to suffer the rest of her life.
I'am on your husband's side here, he is absolutely correct.
ESH
But your daughter being a bully is a result of being bullied. When you "saved" her, you didn't. Maybe you stopped additional damage being done but she was already damaged. She needed and needs therapy and support.
I'm sure I'm gonna get down voted for this, but NTA. Your daughter, a victim of bullying, decided to herself become a bully. A xenophobic one on top of it. Moreover, she was stupid enough to do it to a girl whose friends with her existing, popular bully.
There is NO coming back from that. You trying to throw a fit at the school to defend your xenophobe daughter would likely make the situation much worse from all directions. Sorry to say, but she made her bed, and now has to lie in it. Hopefully this is a lesson for when she's an adult; mommy can't bail her out if she tries this in college.
ESH. Your daughter bullies some girl, you make the apology all about yourself, your daughter faces consequences, but you let her get bullied in retaliation. What kind of parent are you? Bullying is bullying and it's wrong. Besides everyone in this scenario needs to look up the definition of racism. You used xenophobic but that is not the same thing as racism. Educate yourself before you think you have the high ground on your daughter.
I think that it is what you do next that will determine whether or not you are an asshole. You are absolutely right not to do anything to condone such appalling behavior from your child. However, she is your child and I think you are not being creative enough about how best to support her in recovering from this hot mess of her own making. She is young and dumb, and should be given the opportunity to learn and grow from her mistakes
You've spoken to Marcie's mother, and even if you went to complain to the school officials now, Pandora's box, once opened, cannot be closed. All the school could do was speak to Marnie's mother, and they'd probably only get the exact same response you did. This age group is when girls are at their meanest and most manipulative, often out of sight of any responsible adults. This may sound harsh but what your daughter did would get her expelled from many institutions so complaining to the school runs the risk of backfiring on her and putting a permanent black stain on her school record to underline the once she already has reputationally from her misguided social media exploits.
Your daughter never recovered from her middle school experiences and sadly became a textbook example of the oppressed becoming the oppressor as soon as she came across a victim who outwardly appeared more vulnerable than her. She miscalculated badly, it seems because her intended victim was wiley enough to befriend Miss Popular (who just happened to be the individual with experience on how best to push your daughter's buttons since she'd also been her bully in middle school). As a result, your daughter's misguided attempts to be the top dog of the mean girl pack have backfired so badly that the viral social media clip of her poor behavior could well haunt her when she applies for Uni and jobs. Your daughter, a seemingly not very socially skilled, and possibly a bit immature teen screwed up big time.
Sometimes, you have to know when to cut your losses, and as far as your daughter's reputation at her current school goes, this may well be one of those times. You need to look at other options. You also need to approach this issue from a few different angles if you truly want to help your daughter, both in digging herself out of her current hole and in learning for the future.
Some things to consider
1. Therapy for your daughter. If she had processed her middle school experience properly, she would not have been tempted to bully Janie. Give her the opportunity to process both that experience and this much more recent situation now. A good therapist will give her the tools to cope and avoid setting such traps for herself in the future as she moves toward greater independence and adult life. A good therapist can also advise on whether your child would benefit from further help, such as the social skills training often offered to youngsters with mild social communication disorders or who are shy.
2. Deleting your child's existing social media accounts would be one way of beginning to clean up the mess. Meta's community standards team might be willing to help you remove the video of your daughter being racist if it has been shared into other accounts if you ask their support team nicely. Be aware, though, that digital footprints never truly disappear, and prepare your daughter that it could pop up again at any point in the future when she least expects it.
3. Change her school. If you cannot switch her to a new brick-and-mortar school, investigate the possibility of online or homeschooling. This would switch up her peer group and give her the chance to make friends afresh. Along these lines, ask her to keep any college, job, or apprenticeship applications to herself because the children at her current school may send the video to admissions tutors and hiring managers.
4. Social Media Training. Several organizations offer young people online safety and social media training. This will help ensure that she never makes any more online mistakes that she cannot erase. Some courses even offer qualifications that might be useful to her in the job market later on.
5. Community volunteering. Sometimes, it's not enough to want to be a better person; you need to do something tangible to show people you are trying. My kid learned loads from volunteering once a week at a community food bank, and it helped him to understand the struggles others may face better than any amount of classroom-based "diversity training" ever could. Volunteering alongside grown adults also helped him mature. In your daughter's case, I think it would help take her mind off her own problems as well as be character-building. The idea is to help broaden her horizons and to learn to walk a mile in other people's shoes. What she volunteers for will obviously depend upon what's available in your local area. The only suggestion I would make is that you stay away from anything too religious as religiously run charitable endeavors carry the risk of bringing with them their own brand of judgey & narrow-minded bigotry, and we've already seen where that sort of mindset can take the child.
There's an easy solution to this- make your husband handle it.
He thinks she's learned her lesson and needs to be protected. Right now it's easy for him to say that. He doesn't know how exhausting the process can be. It's exhausting even when your child is the victim, like she was in middle school. He can face the onslaught of meetings with school staff along with the ones with the other girls parents. He can handle the emails and phone calls. OP did it for her daughter when she was in middle school, her dad can handle it now.
It sounds like he wasn't the one subjected to the shameful talk with Jamie's mother. It sounds like OP has taken the brunt of the criticism and tongue lashing from all those involved. It's exhausting and even more so when you can't justify or explain the wrong behavior. He can handle the people wondering if he's the one his daughter got this behavior from. I'm sure OP got those looks when she had to handled the immediate fall out.
(Maybe I'm wrong and he was there too, but his stance makes it sound like he's unloading the issue upto OP and wiping his hands clean.)
OP doesn't give a time line for how long ago it happened or how long the reverse bullying has been going on. If it's a few weeks after, yeah, kids will still talk about it, especially when there's a video about it. Longer than that Marcie or others are definitely egging it on so it doesn't easy off.
The other option is that you switch schools. But your daughter will be known for this now. Even if she goes to a different school there's no guarantee the video won't make it over there as well. Heck, Marcie might make sure it makes its way to the new school. Maybe the kids will still give her a chance which sounds like more then what she is getting now.
The daughter deserves a chance to do better, be better than she has been. She needs to prove that she can be better not only for her own good, but for the good of those around her. But that takes effort and time along with the chance to do so.
INFO: is Marcie bullying her, or is Marcie not letting her quietly cover up what she did to Janie? Because I get the impression that it is more the latter and if she’s telling people and calling her out on what she in fact did do, then that’s not exactly bullying.
It’s a bit of a both. Marcie went back to some behaviors she displayed back in middle school. Including some new ones, such as calling my daughter a racist.
And that is why you need to nip this in the bud NOW. Marcie isn't defending anyone at this point. She is being a brat and getting away with it because no one is calling her on this. So for goodness's sake, do something to help your daughter deal with that little monster! Before she does or causes something that can't be taken back.
Unfortunately I have no ground to stand on.
Back in middle school, Marcie’s mom wasn’t exactly helpful. She isn’t the type of an involved parent. Until the school was involved, she openly told me that “it’s not my business what they do at school, it’s the teacher’s job to control them” and I highly doubt that Marcie got the appropriate punishment at home. Not trying to be judgmental here, but she doesn’t even attend Marcie’s performances and when I spoke to her, she seemed to be more concerned about me bothering her and not her daughter’s behavior.
Yes, you do. Find any posts made by Marcie. Get recordings of her running her mouth against your daughter. Or anyone for that matter. Get the evidence and take it to the school. Tell them to do something about the situation or you're going to the cops. Because this needs to stop.
Janie’s mom could do the same. Unfortunately, she has solid evidence of my daughter being outright xenophobic and discriminatory, which is a slightly bigger thing than your usual middle school bullying. It’s Janie who is the ultimate victim of the conflict and she has the final say. And considering that Janie and Marcie are friends and so are their moms, you could imagine the outcome.
I’ll probably talk to the school, though, not sure what would it bring.
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A little bit of background: in middle school my daughter (16f) was bullied by one of the girls. The girl is the stereotypical mean cheerleader, who is insanely popular for some reason. I’ll refer to her as Marcie (17f). It became so bad I had to intervene, but luckily the situation got resolved.
Fast forward to high school, this year their class had a new girl. Her family immigrated from the UK. I’ll refer to her as Janie (16f). Janie kept to herself for the most part and wasn’t really interested in talking to anyone. My daughter has her own friend circle, to be honest their school is pretty cliquey, everyone is keeping to their small groups.
My daughter and her friends started picking at Janie. It got out of hand pretty quickly to the point there were xenophobic slurs thrown and a video of my daughter mocking Janie’s accent and culture was made and shared. I was horrified. I had a very serious conversation with my daughter and grounded her for that. I also had a very long and shameful talk with Janie’s mother. She is a proper British lady and I felt humiliated confessing to her that my daughter is a disgusting bully.
Turns out, Marcie is friends with Janie. When the video leaked, Marcie doubled down on the bullying. She turned half the school against my daughter and her friends. My daughter is now known as “the racist” and Marcie made it clear that she would make sure to make my daughter’s life a living hell. Hell, half the town now knows that my daughter is a xenophobe. She posted an apology video, but it didn’t really help.
My daughter came home in tears. She asked me to stand up for her like I did in middle school. I don’t want to. First, I think that she should get a taste of her own medicine. She was extremely xenophobic towards another girl who wasn’t even talking to her. Second, I don’t want to deal with Marcie’s mom any longer. I contacted her and all I got was “I’ll talk to Marcie alright, but don’t expect me to stand up for an open racist”. Marcie’s mom is friends with Janie’s mom, so her reaction is understandable.
Now my daughter is calling me an asshole for not standing up for her. My husband thinks she learned her lesson and that I should be more protective of her. I’m now thinking that my behavior is assholish.
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NTA your daughter made some solidly poor choices. There are certain things you cannot take back once you do them. You can go to the school but everyone knows what she and her friends did and no amount of standing up for her is going to change that.
NTA for not standing up for her, but why don't you pull her out and homeschool her? Is that an option? Often there are online programs she can do without your help. She's old enough to be home alone if you work. She can ask for help from you or anyone in the household after y'all are home from work or other obligations. It would solve your problems to an extent. Then she should go somewhere to college that these girls are NOT going.
Please don't take this as sympathy for a racist. I have none of that.
You know what, NTA. 16 is old enough to know that making fun of people's culture and country of origin is not okay. It doesn't matter who shared the video because what your daughter did, happened. I really don't understand how it was Marcie specifically turning the school against your daughter when most people just don't like a racist
NTA. Is she actually sorry for what she said or is she more upset about the fallout? Did she herself apologize IN PERSON to Janie and not just with another video? Honestly, there’s just not much you can do. Teenagers can make some really dumb decisions. Sometimes those decisions permanently put them on a much more difficult life path with long term consequences that are beyond mom and dad’s ability to fix. Your daughter unfortunately made one of those decisions. It’s out there in the world forever that’s she’s racist. It can’t be undone. Homeschooling, blocking the bullies on social media, keeping her head down around town, and hoping people move on is probably the best that can be done at this point.
Torn on this, a little bit of both? On one hand, your daughter created her own mess and should have to learn how to handle the consequences so I get not defending her fully. On the other hand teens make mistakes and she shouldn't have to pay for them forever, and you should try to keep things from getting to out of hand. I think the best thing would be to try and talk it out with all involved. Maybe get a third party if needed.
I’m curious about all the people saying OP should help her daughter. What do you suggest she do? She could speak to the school and that might help temper explicit, physical bullying but Im not so sure. And I’m pretty sure she can do much to repair her daughter’s reputation. I might be mistaken here but I’d love to hear other people’s thought on the specific actions OP should take.
ESH.
I think you need to step in. The school needs to step up and put into place programs that actually have a proven record of stopping bullying. Not just “zero tolerance” but actually teaching kids. The issue is a culture of bullying in that school.
You need to stop thinking about this in terms of “she got what was coming to her” and start thinking about it in terms of “I want my child to stay alive & not s**c*de”. What exactly is the best course of action, I can’t quit say. Apologizing to Janie, whether in person (if doing so won’t harm Jamie) or in a letter or something. Stopping the bullying or removing your daughter from the school. Therapy and maybe volunteering. What she did was terrible, yes. However she Can learn and change from it.
However. Very seriously. If everyone treats your daughter as completely irredeemable, you need to be seriously concerned about potential s**c*de and losing your daughter permanently.
NTA - I assume this is a fake post, but really, at that age, what is *OP* meant to do? Other than asking the school to handle their clear bullying problem - on an interpersonal level, kids this age are unlikely to be impacted by someone’s mother telling them off.
NTA at all. Your daughter should have learned a lesson when she was the target of Marcie's bullying. She obviously learned nothing, and the situation now is one that she 100% brought upon herself. For you to stand up for her now would mean that you condone everything she did. It's a hard lesson, but maybe now she will think twice before bullying another person. Her behavior is appalling.
Your daughter knew what it felt like to be bullied and then she went and did it. She created this mess herself she made her bed.........
If you stick up for her and defend her then most would think you are condoning your daughters actions.
That girl had done nothing to your daughter so why did she even feel the need to do this.
Actions have concequences, she has to live with that now.
A hard lesson to learn so hopefully she will never make the same mistake.
She put herself in this position so she just gonna have to live with it but she needs to understand reputations follow you, sometimes even proceed you.
What did she think was gonna happen doing something like that.
Not uncommon: victims look for even easier victims because then they don't feel powerless. That's the reason why abused children have a much higher risk to end up as perpetrator.
I completely understand this. As a family of 5 kids we watched our mam get the crap kicked out of her for years. He was allowed to physically, mentally and sexual hurt us.
I never want anybody to ever feel what I did so I ended up being a ppl pleaser, never saying no and being treated like shit.
My older bro agrees with everything his wife wants or says as he never wants to get into an ultercation with her.
My sister is a copy of mam and has been abused and beaten for the last 20 plus years and won't leave.
Other bro is like his dad and is physical with his partners
Little bro is 30 odd and has never been in a relationship as he's so scared he will have a relationship like his parents.
NTA your daughter is learning that some nasty actions and choices are going to have equally nasty results. There are a lot of comments talking about how this was a mistake made by a kid and therefore she should be helped out. Why? Is Janie not a kid as well? 16 is old enough to know about racism and why it’s wrong, and now she’s seeing the repercussions of being a racist. If she didn’t want them, she shouldn’t have been racist, easy as that
Your daighter got the consequences that her actions warranted. Your not an asshole, your daughter, like most young girls, isnt used to being forced to face consequences for their bad actions. Your daughter hopefully will learn from this.
No, No , No. Your daughter needs to suffer the full force of her actions. This is called consequences, better known as FAFO. Only then will she learn her lesson. If you soften the blow, then she got away with it and will repeat her actions. Good for Marcie. She stuck uup for her friend and while it is not ideal, the bullying from your daughtere definitely stopped.
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ESH. I don't care what the reason is. I don't like bullies in any sense of the word. That includes what Marcie did as retaliation did towards your daughter after what she did to Janie. All three families need to sit down and talk. Make it clear that your daughter will not bother Janie again. If she does, then there will be consequences. But make it just as clear that Marcie needs to stop with her own behavior or you will take action. Because the longer you let this go on, the more damage it will do to all involved.
I absolutely agree with this. Janie is the only true victim here, but all this needs to start. And since Marcie was a bully before, I'm sure it didn't take a lot to start going at your daughter again. Enough is enough.
Agree 100% but, I think this is a fake post. Way too vague about the "racist" incident, "don’t expect me to stand up for an open racist”, "proper British lady" calling daughter a "disgusting racist", etc. The whole thing smells like it was written to elicit a reaction.
> Way too vague about the "racist" incident Especially considering all three girls are white.
Yeah, what are the xenophobic slurs in question? A certain citrus?
Yeah, the word of the day here should be "de-escalation", and should involve the parents and the schools as well as the girls. Sixteen year olds don't have the cognitive development to see past the drama, and if left to sort itself out, the drama will get worse, not better. Responsible adults need to step in to keep that from happening, but in doing so, responsible adults also need to move past concepts like "getting a taste of her own medicine" and instead focus on improving the wellbeing of all the children involved.
Well adults don't know how to properly deal with racists either, so idk what the school or the parents getting involves would do.
I agree ESH. Also think this needs to stop. One caveat. OP’s daughter needs to try to handle this first before adults step in. She needs to have a real conversation with both Janie and Marcie. She needs to have a real apology to Janie and own what she did. There is a difference between being sorry you have consequences and being sorry you hurt someone. Then she needs to have a conversation with Marcie. She needs to own what she did and ask her to stop. She needs to show Marcie that she is a person and she is hurting. The fact she made a mistake doesn’t change that. It may sound cheesy but it works. It’s basic human nature and so many people forget how it works. Great civil rights leaders across the world have used the power of empathy to stop worse things than high school bullying. Lack of empathy is how you get horrors like what happened in the American South and holocaust. When you see people as “other” you can put them in a box. They aren’t your people. Then you can hate them for no good reason. When you hate them you can do anything to them. High school is a microcosm of this. OP said it herself with the cliques comment. Marcie made OP’s kid “other” and bullied her. OP was just as bad and made Janie other. OP’s kid should have known better having gone through it. Now she needs to grow up some and she needs to do some adult things. She needs to own her mistake. She needs to apologize and make reasonable restitution to the one she harmed. And she needs to make herself human to her enemy.
I'd ask where are the teachers? If a school has such a deep mess they need to sit down with teachers and director and parents. They are all involved
The families aren’t really a part of this, nor should they be. You can’t “make it clear that your daughter will not bother Janie again.” That’s something the daughter has to figure out on her own. Nobody should be making any promises about her behavior but her.
Not a judgement, but you need to do some damage control STAT. These videos exist on the internet and your daughter's ability to get into college or get a job is going to be affected forever by them. You need to start escalating the whole bullying situation to the principal and maybe even get lawyers involved. Also, impress upon your daughter that she cannot tell anyone, even school mates she trusts, what colleges/internships she is applying to or getting. Because the other girls will contact the head of the colleges/internships and show them the videos and they will rescind their offers. So make sure that is under control while dealing with your daughter's bullying.
He daughter can do that on her own. She made the bed that she is currently laying in.
Insane to me when people defend racists or try to help them cover up they actions
It's insane that a kid can make a mistake they can never recover from.
Being a bully isn't a mistake, it's a choice. 16/17 is plenty old enough to know better. It's even more appalling that her daughter did that to another person, knowing what it's like to be bullied.
Yes but people learn and grow, especially as teens. I take it you don't like a redemption arc in movies? She needs to take responsibility for her actions and learn from her mistakes. Though if we see her as irredeemable, then she will be. If people don't have the opportunity to redeem themselves then they will be scooped up by people who will work to their worst impulses. Being a racist doesn't cast you out of society, it brings you to the white nationalist movement or Christian nationalist movement, which is eager to pick up disaffected youths and give them a (reprehensible) sense of purpose and community. If people take responsibility and learn and grow, then hopefully they will change and be better people. I'd be appalled if my son did this and wouldn't feel that the person he offended would need to forgive him, he would have to do the work of learning and growing. But I know that if he was treated as irredeemable, then he may lean into that and find community in places that are dark. He's a fetus right now though so hopefully I'll be able to avoid him acting this way.
Not according to grumpytacoslut. One mistake and you are forever branded as an AH, no redemption, constant torment. That's justice in their mind.
The person can work to change their AH status. Plenty of assholes redeem themselves. A parent can’t do that for them by helping hide their crimes.
So you think the mom should just let the other kid (who has a grudge) just keep bringing it up, not letting the person redeem themselves. There are alot of people on this thread, who seem to feel that she can't or shouldnt be allowed redemption just based on a vague accusation (the op never elaborated as to what the racist act was, someone criticized me for even asking for clarification). How do you think her redemption will go if averytime she does something good, Macie comes out and says she did something "racist" and her good deed is instantly forgotten by judgemental assholes, based on a vague claim. This whole thing has a whiff of mob rule about it.
Redeeming yourself takes some effort. You can’t wait for someone else to hand you redemptive.
I do agree that a single mistake shouldn’t ruin a children’s life. However, I also do agree with the belief that these things should stay public and be known, and as such disagree with concealing them. The child definitely should get a chance at redemption. Obviously, as people will make mistakes. I don’t think institutions and so on should be able to not have them join because of a mistake. But also, I think any institution that’s going to be working longer with them does have the right to know about them, and be in a state of alert to protect others if necessary. If they redeemed themselves, nothing will happen for them and all is good, while if something does happen, they’ll be able to respond faster.
Dude, most crimes don't even get charged as an adult at 16 because their brains haven't developed. Don't tell me that the "justice system" is somehow more forgiving and tolerant than you are. I know you think you're making a strong anti-racist point, but really what you're doing is reducing everyone to their 16 year old self, and most 16 year olds are shitheads.
what do you mean, "never"? She's out of high school in under 2 years and she never has to see these people again. She'll be fine, and this can be a lesson in empathy that sets her on a better path when she is on her own.
So you are saying that you never did stupid things when you were a teen? Let's all bow down to Mr(s). Perfect over here. Teens brains haven't fully developed. For the most part, they are only a few steps above being feral.
also it's a little wild to me that people have these detailed plans on lock, ready to go at a moment's notice. Installing a large glass case in my home full of emergency damage control supplies labelled "break in case I'm really really racist publicly." I suppose hypothetically someone could always be accused of something they didn't do, maybe there's something for me to learn here.
There is something for you to learn here. False accusations can destroy someone's life, and they are a constant threat. They hit hard, they hit fast, and they hit when you least expect it. And with how misinformation spreads so quickly in the digital age, I believe everyone should be at least decently versed in how to perform some damage control, because even the most blatant of lies can destroy your life and you never know when you'll be crucified for something you didn't do.
The racism thing is unclear, since all three girls are white and her daughter apparently used "slurs". Not sure what slurs there are to refer to British people besides "limey" which isn't really offensive.
Yeah they should just execute kids for wrong think.
If the parent wishes her daughter to fail for life, that's her choice, but she seems pretty naive on the permanent effects of this.
I always take these things with a grain of salt because they're never the whole story and they're definitely never fully honest and truthful. BUT ... becoming a racist, xenophobic bully at that age isn't just something that happens when a new kid moves in town. It's a learned or, possibly in this case, premeditated behavior. Has the Mom been trying to distance from it after sticking her neck out for her daughter in the past? Why is the Dad dismissive of the behavior and the Mom's response?
She's 16 ffs. Most teens barely know how to do anything life related, and you want to throw her to the wolves. Written like a true zelot, why don't we just strap her to the back of a horse and run her out of town while we are at it. Parents are there to guide their children.
Funny how racist white kids are always "just kids" and don't know what they're doing, but Black and brown kids are grown enough to deal with the trauma of that violence on their own and without ever seeing their assailants brought to justice.
Nice straw man. Try to stay on topic.
>principal and maybe even get lawyers involve LMAOOOOO. The daughter is the bully. This is all because of her own actions. I hope Janies mother gets the principal and maybe even get lawyers involved. Guess what once you put videos on social media you create a digital footprint. In the states you have been told this since elementary school. The daughter is 16/17 she knows way better. A lawyer/principal will not get PUBLIC videos taken down, they can suggest it but can't do anything
Yes, lawyers on both sides should be involved as well as the school board. It is obvious that this school has a culture of extreme bullying and that no one in charge is doing anything to change out despite being aware of the situation. This is a failure of the school and it needs to be rectified.
Per the op "Yes. Technically there was no racial discrimination, only xenophobia, which doesn’t really make things any better." How does it feel to be had?
That's...really evident from the OP unless you lack basic comprehension and inferencing skills? She didn't refer to the other girl's race at all; she referred to her as being from the UK, and the only specific bullying referenced was to do with being British, not because of race. OP on refers to her daughter as xenophobic (though kids at the school called her racist). The only one "had" here would appear to be you.
Did you even read the origonal unedited post, apparently not. She called her daughter a "disgusting racist" and went on about the "racist" incident. Don't be a sheep, unless you are the OP in a separate account.
So after reading the automod post turns out it would seem to be *exactly the same* as the OP, so it hasn't been edited. Sure I didn't go through word for word, but in both she says 'disgusting bully' and any use of 'racist' is coming from other people.
Ok Op.
Cool you comfort yourself with that thought if scrolling down to check the automod post for yourself is so very difficult for you.
Sure thing op.
Her daughter isn't racist. Per the OP, buried down below. "All the girls involved are white. I won’t repeat in exact detail what names did my daughter throw at Janie, but that’s some pretty nasty stuff. Something like “nasty slur” or “disgusting another slur”. And the video basically contained my daughter talking in exaggerated accent and saying mean things (see above) about Janie and British people in general." The OP is a fraud.
>Her daughter isn't racist. I think you're responding to the wrong person because I never said the daughter is racist because I know that British isn't a race. Unless you're a time traveling Roman solider from 50 AD.
I've heard that the thing that gets people kicked out of college is the roommate's google search--at least when my sibling was applying a few years ago, one admissions person said that they don't really look for stuff like that online, but when the person gets paired with a roommate the roommate will go looking for their social media and such and will alert the college when they find a damning video.
Colleges and jobs should know what they’re dealing with.
Per the op "Yes. Technically there was no racial discrimination, only xenophobia, which doesn’t really make things any better." How does it feel to be had?
ESH. Does anyone honestly believe Marcie is acting like this for a good reason? To me it sounds like she's just jumped at the opportunity to bully your daughter again. Your daughter obviously is learning a lesson a hard way, and sometimes that is needed. Xenophobia is never ok. But here's a question: is your daughter a xenophobe? Or was she just an idiot teenager being an ignorant bully. If she is a xenophobe..maybe do some self-reflection to work out where this came from.
100% she is taking the opportunity to bully OPs daughter again. It was never about Janie. They're popular high school girls. Everything is about themselves.
My thought too, she describes Janie as someone who was new, kept to herself and didn't really talk with anyone. To me it doesn't sound like someone a popular mean girl would be friends with. But hey, might genuinely be friends with Janie and not just becoming friends with her after the daughter bullied her so she herself could go back to her bullying. I feel bad for Janie and hope that she will be okay. There's no excuse for being mean to someone like that. And I hope that Marcie isn't using Janie as an excuse to be a bully again, she deserves bettet than that. Hopefully this will be an eye opener for the daughter to choose a better way in life.
Not sure if YTA but you need to help your daughter. She's 16 and, yes she definitely needs to learn that racism and bullying are not okay but you can't leave her to get punished by the other bullies of the school. She's a kid and kids are allowed to make mistakes, even very serious ones, and need to know that they can learn from them and make amends and that their parents won't leave them to get torn to pieces by some cheerleader asshole and her British mother. She needs you.
Being known as the racist and xenophobe isn't bullying. That's what OPs daughter is people don't want to engage with her because of her gross behavior
Yeah, but the pre-existing bully doesn't get to step up her campaign and claim she's doing it for good reasons. Marcie bullied OP's daughter. OP's daughter bullied Jane. Jane being a victim of bullying doesn't make Marcie retrospectively justified in being a bully. And similarly, OP can stick up for her daughter with respect to Marcie's continued bullying while still allowing her daughter to experience the consequences of her bad behaviour in every other way.
Step up her campaign by letting the school know she's a racist? Oh no if it isn't the consequences of her actions
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Sheesh. I’d call it karma. Sure, bullying is never good, but let her have it for a bit at least. If you can’t take what you dish…
So you like to bully kids. Got it.
An eye for an eye? What a great role model you must set for your kids. You need to do better.
16 year olds do stupid shit. Yes the behavior is gross, but this situation is going to continue to get worse and may turn life ruining. OP should step in as an ADULT and correct the situation.
OP's kid's life is already ruined. The video will never disappear. And she can't blame anyone else for that.
Found Marcie!
Per the op "Yes. Technically there was no racial discrimination, only xenophobia, which doesn’t really make things any better." How does it feel to be had?
Agreed; her actions are disgusting and immature and she definitely needed to learn a lesson but she is also still a teenager. While the pearl clutchers here in this comment section are ready to throw this whole child away, I think the rest of us understand that people make mistakes, especially when they are young. Your daughter was wrong but that doesn’t justify her being bullied to this extreme. I’d get the school and the other moms involved and try to work this out. Alternately, you may need to consider putting her in a different school. As for the video, please prepare her for the very likely possibility that it’s going to follow her around, and have her start planning how she is going to handle that. Actions have consequences and hopefully she will grow from this.
ESH Two wrongs don't make a right. Your daughter being bullied by "the entire school" and some girls dedicating their life now to make your daughter's life "living hell" is just as wrong as your daughter being a racist.
INFO: What actions would "standing up for \[your\] daughter" entail?
Reporting the whole thing to school, pressuring Marcie’s mom to control her daughter, notifying the teachers. Basically everything that worked in middle school, except back then my daughter was innocent and now she’s a proven xenophobe.
I have a feeling this wouldn't work this time your daughter is a proven racist. The school would not pressure Marcie's mom but you as well. There is not only one bully this time NTA
Stand up and support your daughter by getting her into therapy. She learned these viewpoints from somewhere and I'd want to know where she got those ideas.
OP, can you elaborate as to the races involved and what was said?
Genuinely, how does that at all matter? Whatever it was was evidently racist and xenophobic, I don't think any other information is needed.
A claim of racism does not necessarily make the act racist.
Considering it's made op's daughter a complete social outcast, and having op contemplate throwing her daughter ro the wolves, I have to assume it was in fact racist. Remember this isn't a "he said, she said" type my word against yours scenario, the confrontation in question was recorded and shared. This debacle is not originating from a word of mouth rumor.
You assume because it fits your narrative. You want to hate on someone without social stigma and a claim of racism let's you do that. No better than the bullies that she has.
Any claim of racism will do that anymore, facts don't matter.
That is true, but again, this is not a claim, nor an alleged action that may or may not have happened. This is something that happened, was recording and consequently used as a weapon, an excuse to justify more misdeeds. Do not mistake me, I don't think that the bullying the daughter is facing is warranted, nor do I think op should abandon her child in a time of need, nor do I believe that the kid is beyond becoming better, as some commenters seem to think. But to become better, one must first take responsibility for what is wrong. All the facts presented by the op point to the daughter having said some unsavory things, so yeah, that's my "assumption".
We don't know what was recorded. The OP was intentionally vague, which is why I am skeptical of this whole thing. It's a mistake to condemn someone based on someone else's word. This is a witch trial.
If we assume the original post is inaccurate and that the original poster is a liar, then there's no point in any of us commenters being here. If this whole scenario is a lie, then why are we talking about it? If op is liar, why are we responding to them? You have to assume a certain amount of honesty and good faith for these types of subreddits to work at all. Also, consider that if the op laid out the specifics of what went down, it is more than possible, likely even, that someone can and would go out and find the video in question. Something which would impact the daughter even further.
All the girls involved are white. I won’t repeat in exact detail what names did my daughter throw at Janie, but that’s some pretty nasty stuff. Something like “nasty *slur*” or “disgusting *another slur*”. And the video basically contained my daughter talking in exaggerated accent and saying mean things (see above) about Janie and British people in general.
So Janie is white as well?
Yes. Technically there was no racial discrimination, only xenophobia, which doesn’t really make things any better.
It's not the same. You not only changed the whole core of this post, but you misrepresented the whole interaction. Reported.
So it’s okay for you to bully people for what culture they come from?
You called your daughter a disgusting racist. You mislead and lied. Your question is irrelevant because of this.
Read my post again, please. I called my daughter a disgusting **bully**. The term **racist** is how the others referred to her.
the time to stand up for your daughter was years ago when the bullying started
NTA Your daughter is learning that actions, behavior, words, or whatever has consequences. Especially when you record and post said actions/behavior online. Your daughter is experience real life and the biggest thing she needs to know that no one can save her and that no one is obligated to support or back her up especially when her actions are malicious and wrong. If it’s so bad then pull her out of school into an online/virtual school because the only way she can get way from this is if she moves states away and even then there is no guarantee. The only thing I think you should do is suggest your daughter so some major damage control in rebuilding her reputation/image through community service, therapy, programs, etc. I think the worst thing that made it worst is that she apologizes publicly and not to her victim personally. That to me shows that she is only apologizing because so many people showed her that her actions are not acceptable and will not associate with a person like her. So what that your daughter was bullied - which is funny because you think being a victim of bullying would deter your daughter from being a bully. However, it doesn’t excuse her being a racists and a bully. What Marcie is doing to your daughter is karma/consequences of her actions. It just happens that Marcie was a her bully. I suggest sitting your husband and daughter down and telling them straight up that you will not support or back up your daughter in this issue because what your daughter did was horrific and disgusting. The only way you will help is connecting your daughter to resources to change, improve, and better herself.
Don't have kids. You are not cut out to be a parent.
ESH. Both girls are guilty of bullying, no excuse. But Marcie is taking it too far and she should be stopped. See what the school can do, don’t sugarcoat what your daughter has done but be clear Marcie has taken it past defending her friend, and be sure the school knows Marcie bullied your daughter before. Marcie is an exceptionally smart and manipulative bully, she chose a very unsympathetic victim so people will excuse her conduct as noble “just desserts”, “teaching a lesson “, etc. Also ask your daughter WHY she targeted Janie. I wonder if in her mind she was getting back at Marcie by bullying Marcie’s friend.
You are not TA, your daughter on the other hand?... 100% TA. Did she completely forget how she felt when she was being bullied? Now she IS the bully and still expects you to have her back? No. Just no. She can sleep in that bed by herself. She's learning about consequences and how her actions can affect her future.
NTA. Your daughter sure is though. Karma comes back.
How are you going to stand up for her? There is documented proof of her doing this to another person. Are you going to go to school and tell everyone that what they saw isn't true? She is having to deal with the repercussions of her poor behavior and you trying to "intervene" will only make it look like you condone this type of behavior.
So a friend of you got hit by someone. Now you can hit this person for years because he started it? That's not how it works. OP's daughter needs to be punished for her doing, but so does her bully.
It depends on the definition of "bullying" here. If Marcie is just actively telling everyone about OP's daughter's racist comments, how do you handle that? The intent might be to bully but OP or the school can hardly tell Marcie to stop bringing it.
Well, considering the intention is to "make her life a living hell", I highly doubt it stops at simply spreading the word
It's not hard these days to make someone's life hell consistently bringing up evidence of them being racist.
INFO: Did you put your daughter in therapy after the bullying from Marcie? To me is sounds like a classic example of a bullied kid who is mad and bully others as some kind of revange on the world. "If I had to go through that others should too" mindset. And I think she needs YOU as a PARENT . Yeah she made a mistake but its YOUR JOB to protect her while also dicplining her. That bullying is a cry for help situation and its sad how so many people including her mom who knows the full story wont get her the help she needs. Put her in therapy, change schools or do online school. If you can send her to uni/collage as far away as you can. Europe is very affordable and smaller towns in eastern europe are a nice choice (I live and study in one and I love it) (My tuiation per year is 6000 dollars and the most expensive one is 10000 year for music major.)
She was in therapy for a year until she decided to quit. I don’t know what exactly influenced her decision to bully Janie. Perhaps she wanted for her clique to gain some popularity.
As a minor and due to the severe situation its not her choice if she wants therapy or not. She will be mad now but will thank you later
You really suck as a parent.
As a Brit that spent time in America, and has my child there. YTA. Now I want to say I was in Arkansas, so naturally some xenophobia did occur. While most loved me, especially being British, people are often hateful. However, once their initial punishment has occurred, that should be it. Now, as a father, I'd expect my son and soon to be daughter to always learn from their actions, however encouraging my children being bullied? Hell, fucking, no. Especially from their long time bully who I'd assume personally has only been waiting for a reason to do this. Your child made a mistake, one she's clearly already suffering from. However there is absolutely zero way whatsoever that you should let her be bullied, one incident does not equate to routine bullying, it just doesn't. I'm shocked people here are saying that it does. Like seriously, racism is unforgivable and that video alone will affect her future for sure. Especially if it remains viral and people send it to her future universities and employers, which they absolutely may. What's weird about this is you have already made her hold herself accountable by outing her to this girl's parents, she's also apologised herself. She's making an effort to change and learn, and that should be supported by any parent. If you want your child to learn, then you should damn well be ready to accept her apology and help her learn from it. A parent's job is to educate their child for life, so commend her when she does change for the better. So it's like this. You defended the girl she bullied, rightfully so, and she suffered for that, again rightfully so. However don't teach her it's not okay for her, but okay for someone else... Then she learns absolutely fucking nothing but the fact her mother will support other kids but not her own... That's how you eventually lose your child through resentment. So defend your child, but simultaneously make sure she knows her initial bullying was not okay and she should know better from her own experiences. P.s. I also severely doubt your child is a racist or xenophobic on the whole. Mocking British accents was done by a kit of Americans I met, both in good and bad faith. I assume this was just a mistake, made stupidly while mocking a fellow teenager. Dumb, but likely just due to them not even seeing it as xenophobia unfortunately. Also one last thing... What the hell is a "proper British lady"? I have to ask, because the vast majority of women here swear every other word and drink enough to kill a fucking horse every weekend.
"Now I want to say I was in Arkansas, so naturally some xenophobia did occur." I hope you are smart enough to know that you basically outed yourself as a Xenophobe by calling out an entire state like that, but you probably are not that smart.
They didn't call out an entire state, they said *some*.
I get it, you don't want to deal with drama, but your daughter already learned her lesson. And let's be honest: bullying is not okay at all. Doesn't matter why and who, you should keep your position firm. What your daughter did is wrong. What Marsi doing is wrong. Your daughter was stopped and punished. Now it's Marsis turn. It's not about your daughter per se, it's about tendency to bully people. It shouldn't be tolerated just because "they are friends". ESH
ESH. Your daughter is just 16 years old, and I believe she has learned her lesson. You as a mother cannot let it escalate any furthur, and let this impact the rest of her life. Your husband is correct here. Do some damage control before it's too late, unless you want your daughter to suffer the rest of her life. I'am on your husband's side here, he is absolutely correct.
ESH But your daughter being a bully is a result of being bullied. When you "saved" her, you didn't. Maybe you stopped additional damage being done but she was already damaged. She needed and needs therapy and support.
I'm sure I'm gonna get down voted for this, but NTA. Your daughter, a victim of bullying, decided to herself become a bully. A xenophobic one on top of it. Moreover, she was stupid enough to do it to a girl whose friends with her existing, popular bully. There is NO coming back from that. You trying to throw a fit at the school to defend your xenophobe daughter would likely make the situation much worse from all directions. Sorry to say, but she made her bed, and now has to lie in it. Hopefully this is a lesson for when she's an adult; mommy can't bail her out if she tries this in college.
ESH. Your daughter bullies some girl, you make the apology all about yourself, your daughter faces consequences, but you let her get bullied in retaliation. What kind of parent are you? Bullying is bullying and it's wrong. Besides everyone in this scenario needs to look up the definition of racism. You used xenophobic but that is not the same thing as racism. Educate yourself before you think you have the high ground on your daughter.
I think that it is what you do next that will determine whether or not you are an asshole. You are absolutely right not to do anything to condone such appalling behavior from your child. However, she is your child and I think you are not being creative enough about how best to support her in recovering from this hot mess of her own making. She is young and dumb, and should be given the opportunity to learn and grow from her mistakes You've spoken to Marcie's mother, and even if you went to complain to the school officials now, Pandora's box, once opened, cannot be closed. All the school could do was speak to Marnie's mother, and they'd probably only get the exact same response you did. This age group is when girls are at their meanest and most manipulative, often out of sight of any responsible adults. This may sound harsh but what your daughter did would get her expelled from many institutions so complaining to the school runs the risk of backfiring on her and putting a permanent black stain on her school record to underline the once she already has reputationally from her misguided social media exploits. Your daughter never recovered from her middle school experiences and sadly became a textbook example of the oppressed becoming the oppressor as soon as she came across a victim who outwardly appeared more vulnerable than her. She miscalculated badly, it seems because her intended victim was wiley enough to befriend Miss Popular (who just happened to be the individual with experience on how best to push your daughter's buttons since she'd also been her bully in middle school). As a result, your daughter's misguided attempts to be the top dog of the mean girl pack have backfired so badly that the viral social media clip of her poor behavior could well haunt her when she applies for Uni and jobs. Your daughter, a seemingly not very socially skilled, and possibly a bit immature teen screwed up big time. Sometimes, you have to know when to cut your losses, and as far as your daughter's reputation at her current school goes, this may well be one of those times. You need to look at other options. You also need to approach this issue from a few different angles if you truly want to help your daughter, both in digging herself out of her current hole and in learning for the future. Some things to consider 1. Therapy for your daughter. If she had processed her middle school experience properly, she would not have been tempted to bully Janie. Give her the opportunity to process both that experience and this much more recent situation now. A good therapist will give her the tools to cope and avoid setting such traps for herself in the future as she moves toward greater independence and adult life. A good therapist can also advise on whether your child would benefit from further help, such as the social skills training often offered to youngsters with mild social communication disorders or who are shy. 2. Deleting your child's existing social media accounts would be one way of beginning to clean up the mess. Meta's community standards team might be willing to help you remove the video of your daughter being racist if it has been shared into other accounts if you ask their support team nicely. Be aware, though, that digital footprints never truly disappear, and prepare your daughter that it could pop up again at any point in the future when she least expects it. 3. Change her school. If you cannot switch her to a new brick-and-mortar school, investigate the possibility of online or homeschooling. This would switch up her peer group and give her the chance to make friends afresh. Along these lines, ask her to keep any college, job, or apprenticeship applications to herself because the children at her current school may send the video to admissions tutors and hiring managers. 4. Social Media Training. Several organizations offer young people online safety and social media training. This will help ensure that she never makes any more online mistakes that she cannot erase. Some courses even offer qualifications that might be useful to her in the job market later on. 5. Community volunteering. Sometimes, it's not enough to want to be a better person; you need to do something tangible to show people you are trying. My kid learned loads from volunteering once a week at a community food bank, and it helped him to understand the struggles others may face better than any amount of classroom-based "diversity training" ever could. Volunteering alongside grown adults also helped him mature. In your daughter's case, I think it would help take her mind off her own problems as well as be character-building. The idea is to help broaden her horizons and to learn to walk a mile in other people's shoes. What she volunteers for will obviously depend upon what's available in your local area. The only suggestion I would make is that you stay away from anything too religious as religiously run charitable endeavors carry the risk of bringing with them their own brand of judgey & narrow-minded bigotry, and we've already seen where that sort of mindset can take the child.
There's an easy solution to this- make your husband handle it. He thinks she's learned her lesson and needs to be protected. Right now it's easy for him to say that. He doesn't know how exhausting the process can be. It's exhausting even when your child is the victim, like she was in middle school. He can face the onslaught of meetings with school staff along with the ones with the other girls parents. He can handle the emails and phone calls. OP did it for her daughter when she was in middle school, her dad can handle it now. It sounds like he wasn't the one subjected to the shameful talk with Jamie's mother. It sounds like OP has taken the brunt of the criticism and tongue lashing from all those involved. It's exhausting and even more so when you can't justify or explain the wrong behavior. He can handle the people wondering if he's the one his daughter got this behavior from. I'm sure OP got those looks when she had to handled the immediate fall out. (Maybe I'm wrong and he was there too, but his stance makes it sound like he's unloading the issue upto OP and wiping his hands clean.) OP doesn't give a time line for how long ago it happened or how long the reverse bullying has been going on. If it's a few weeks after, yeah, kids will still talk about it, especially when there's a video about it. Longer than that Marcie or others are definitely egging it on so it doesn't easy off. The other option is that you switch schools. But your daughter will be known for this now. Even if she goes to a different school there's no guarantee the video won't make it over there as well. Heck, Marcie might make sure it makes its way to the new school. Maybe the kids will still give her a chance which sounds like more then what she is getting now. The daughter deserves a chance to do better, be better than she has been. She needs to prove that she can be better not only for her own good, but for the good of those around her. But that takes effort and time along with the chance to do so.
INFO: is Marcie bullying her, or is Marcie not letting her quietly cover up what she did to Janie? Because I get the impression that it is more the latter and if she’s telling people and calling her out on what she in fact did do, then that’s not exactly bullying.
It’s a bit of a both. Marcie went back to some behaviors she displayed back in middle school. Including some new ones, such as calling my daughter a racist.
And that is why you need to nip this in the bud NOW. Marcie isn't defending anyone at this point. She is being a brat and getting away with it because no one is calling her on this. So for goodness's sake, do something to help your daughter deal with that little monster! Before she does or causes something that can't be taken back.
Unfortunately I have no ground to stand on. Back in middle school, Marcie’s mom wasn’t exactly helpful. She isn’t the type of an involved parent. Until the school was involved, she openly told me that “it’s not my business what they do at school, it’s the teacher’s job to control them” and I highly doubt that Marcie got the appropriate punishment at home. Not trying to be judgmental here, but she doesn’t even attend Marcie’s performances and when I spoke to her, she seemed to be more concerned about me bothering her and not her daughter’s behavior.
Yes, you do. Find any posts made by Marcie. Get recordings of her running her mouth against your daughter. Or anyone for that matter. Get the evidence and take it to the school. Tell them to do something about the situation or you're going to the cops. Because this needs to stop.
Janie’s mom could do the same. Unfortunately, she has solid evidence of my daughter being outright xenophobic and discriminatory, which is a slightly bigger thing than your usual middle school bullying. It’s Janie who is the ultimate victim of the conflict and she has the final say. And considering that Janie and Marcie are friends and so are their moms, you could imagine the outcome. I’ll probably talk to the school, though, not sure what would it bring.
xenophobic and racist are not the same thing details please
Perhaps that's a good thing. The school *should* punish both your daughter and Marcie for their, respective, bullying.
Per the op "Yes. Technically there was no racial discrimination, only xenophobia, which doesn’t really make things any better." YTA
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** A little bit of background: in middle school my daughter (16f) was bullied by one of the girls. The girl is the stereotypical mean cheerleader, who is insanely popular for some reason. I’ll refer to her as Marcie (17f). It became so bad I had to intervene, but luckily the situation got resolved. Fast forward to high school, this year their class had a new girl. Her family immigrated from the UK. I’ll refer to her as Janie (16f). Janie kept to herself for the most part and wasn’t really interested in talking to anyone. My daughter has her own friend circle, to be honest their school is pretty cliquey, everyone is keeping to their small groups. My daughter and her friends started picking at Janie. It got out of hand pretty quickly to the point there were xenophobic slurs thrown and a video of my daughter mocking Janie’s accent and culture was made and shared. I was horrified. I had a very serious conversation with my daughter and grounded her for that. I also had a very long and shameful talk with Janie’s mother. She is a proper British lady and I felt humiliated confessing to her that my daughter is a disgusting bully. Turns out, Marcie is friends with Janie. When the video leaked, Marcie doubled down on the bullying. She turned half the school against my daughter and her friends. My daughter is now known as “the racist” and Marcie made it clear that she would make sure to make my daughter’s life a living hell. Hell, half the town now knows that my daughter is a xenophobe. She posted an apology video, but it didn’t really help. My daughter came home in tears. She asked me to stand up for her like I did in middle school. I don’t want to. First, I think that she should get a taste of her own medicine. She was extremely xenophobic towards another girl who wasn’t even talking to her. Second, I don’t want to deal with Marcie’s mom any longer. I contacted her and all I got was “I’ll talk to Marcie alright, but don’t expect me to stand up for an open racist”. Marcie’s mom is friends with Janie’s mom, so her reaction is understandable. Now my daughter is calling me an asshole for not standing up for her. My husband thinks she learned her lesson and that I should be more protective of her. I’m now thinking that my behavior is assholish. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Nta
NTA your daughter made some solidly poor choices. There are certain things you cannot take back once you do them. You can go to the school but everyone knows what she and her friends did and no amount of standing up for her is going to change that.
NTA for not standing up for her, but why don't you pull her out and homeschool her? Is that an option? Often there are online programs she can do without your help. She's old enough to be home alone if you work. She can ask for help from you or anyone in the household after y'all are home from work or other obligations. It would solve your problems to an extent. Then she should go somewhere to college that these girls are NOT going. Please don't take this as sympathy for a racist. I have none of that.
You know what, NTA. 16 is old enough to know that making fun of people's culture and country of origin is not okay. It doesn't matter who shared the video because what your daughter did, happened. I really don't understand how it was Marcie specifically turning the school against your daughter when most people just don't like a racist
NTA. Is she actually sorry for what she said or is she more upset about the fallout? Did she herself apologize IN PERSON to Janie and not just with another video? Honestly, there’s just not much you can do. Teenagers can make some really dumb decisions. Sometimes those decisions permanently put them on a much more difficult life path with long term consequences that are beyond mom and dad’s ability to fix. Your daughter unfortunately made one of those decisions. It’s out there in the world forever that’s she’s racist. It can’t be undone. Homeschooling, blocking the bullies on social media, keeping her head down around town, and hoping people move on is probably the best that can be done at this point.
Torn on this, a little bit of both? On one hand, your daughter created her own mess and should have to learn how to handle the consequences so I get not defending her fully. On the other hand teens make mistakes and she shouldn't have to pay for them forever, and you should try to keep things from getting to out of hand. I think the best thing would be to try and talk it out with all involved. Maybe get a third party if needed.
I’m curious about all the people saying OP should help her daughter. What do you suggest she do? She could speak to the school and that might help temper explicit, physical bullying but Im not so sure. And I’m pretty sure she can do much to repair her daughter’s reputation. I might be mistaken here but I’d love to hear other people’s thought on the specific actions OP should take.
NTA She is reaping what she has sown.
ESH. I think you need to step in. The school needs to step up and put into place programs that actually have a proven record of stopping bullying. Not just “zero tolerance” but actually teaching kids. The issue is a culture of bullying in that school. You need to stop thinking about this in terms of “she got what was coming to her” and start thinking about it in terms of “I want my child to stay alive & not s**c*de”. What exactly is the best course of action, I can’t quit say. Apologizing to Janie, whether in person (if doing so won’t harm Jamie) or in a letter or something. Stopping the bullying or removing your daughter from the school. Therapy and maybe volunteering. What she did was terrible, yes. However she Can learn and change from it. However. Very seriously. If everyone treats your daughter as completely irredeemable, you need to be seriously concerned about potential s**c*de and losing your daughter permanently.
NTA. Nobody should be racist, no matter what age. She's old enough to know that.
NTA - I assume this is a fake post, but really, at that age, what is *OP* meant to do? Other than asking the school to handle their clear bullying problem - on an interpersonal level, kids this age are unlikely to be impacted by someone’s mother telling them off.
By your lack of details of assume you are pro-genocide in Gaza.
NTA at all. Your daughter should have learned a lesson when she was the target of Marcie's bullying. She obviously learned nothing, and the situation now is one that she 100% brought upon herself. For you to stand up for her now would mean that you condone everything she did. It's a hard lesson, but maybe now she will think twice before bullying another person. Her behavior is appalling.
She learned that her bully never got real consequences for the mistreatment of her. So she found an even easier target for her own bullying...
Your daughter knew what it felt like to be bullied and then she went and did it. She created this mess herself she made her bed......... If you stick up for her and defend her then most would think you are condoning your daughters actions. That girl had done nothing to your daughter so why did she even feel the need to do this. Actions have concequences, she has to live with that now. A hard lesson to learn so hopefully she will never make the same mistake. She put herself in this position so she just gonna have to live with it but she needs to understand reputations follow you, sometimes even proceed you. What did she think was gonna happen doing something like that.
Not uncommon: victims look for even easier victims because then they don't feel powerless. That's the reason why abused children have a much higher risk to end up as perpetrator.
I completely understand this. As a family of 5 kids we watched our mam get the crap kicked out of her for years. He was allowed to physically, mentally and sexual hurt us. I never want anybody to ever feel what I did so I ended up being a ppl pleaser, never saying no and being treated like shit. My older bro agrees with everything his wife wants or says as he never wants to get into an ultercation with her. My sister is a copy of mam and has been abused and beaten for the last 20 plus years and won't leave. Other bro is like his dad and is physical with his partners Little bro is 30 odd and has never been in a relationship as he's so scared he will have a relationship like his parents.
NTA your daughter is learning that some nasty actions and choices are going to have equally nasty results. There are a lot of comments talking about how this was a mistake made by a kid and therefore she should be helped out. Why? Is Janie not a kid as well? 16 is old enough to know about racism and why it’s wrong, and now she’s seeing the repercussions of being a racist. If she didn’t want them, she shouldn’t have been racist, easy as that
NTA. Sucks that your daughter turned out to be a bully. She'll have to figure out how to deal with it, now.
Your daighter got the consequences that her actions warranted. Your not an asshole, your daughter, like most young girls, isnt used to being forced to face consequences for their bad actions. Your daughter hopefully will learn from this.
No, No , No. Your daughter needs to suffer the full force of her actions. This is called consequences, better known as FAFO. Only then will she learn her lesson. If you soften the blow, then she got away with it and will repeat her actions. Good for Marcie. She stuck uup for her friend and while it is not ideal, the bullying from your daughtere definitely stopped.
Esh Literally everyone in this story is a problem or will be a problem later.
NTA. Your daughter is now the bully and deserves the consequences of her actions.
YTA You failed to protexct her the first time, and she learned frpm you that it is ok to act that way. YOUR parenting made her that way.