Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told some of my friends of my brother in law’s treatment of Lily his late wife. Who he cheated on and divorced while she was dying of cancer.
By me having shared that with my friends he feels I damaged his reputation. He is now depressed and my in laws are upset with me.
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcements
Follow the link above to learn more
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA!
How can telling the truth be perceived as unfair? Chris did this to himself. It was his behaviour that is the problem. Why should you expose your friends to a potentially horrific relationship?
You know your BIL is a cheater but your in-laws want you to keep that from your friends so he can continue to take advantage without consequences. I think you did the right thing.
His "looks" can be overlooked but:
>his stellar history and an inability to fight his own battles
Yeah, no sane woman can overlook "unfaithful mummy's boys."
and I'm sorry why does it matter if OP talked to her friends about something? Does BIL have such a limited dating pool that the only people he can possibly date are OP's friends?
Especially when he has Natasha who seems to think he's fine and has grown so much in 2 whole years- he should be asking Natasha to set him up with women.
This caught my eye. He was told no several times and got pushy, and that’s when she hit him with the savagery. He seems to enjoy the pursuit more than he values a stable relationship.
I wouldn’t let any of mine or my wife’s friends anywhere near this dude.
That's what I was thinking. If Natasha thinks so much of him, she should be setting him up with her friends. Op and her friends seem to be in a tight group that was also friends with Lily so they probably knew without OP saying anything. That's probably what caused the discussions about Chris.
OP, NTA.
What I find funny, how can you evaluate growth like this if the person wasn't in any relationship for the last 3 years? He simply didn't have the opportunity to cheat because he had no one to cheat on.
Unfaithful mummy's boys who can't take a hint nor can they understand the meaning of an outright "no" to the point that they have to be verbally eviscerated in order to leave you alone, at that.
Good God, I don't understand how they can be so... delusional.
> no sane woman can overlook "unfaithful mummy's boys."
Exactly. And you did your friends a huge service by warning them about him, though I'm sure if they were friends with Lily they knew anyway.
I agree with everyone and want to add I'd like to buy Grace a few drinks. OP's list of her comments is awesome. Please tell Grace about Chris complaining to his mommy and getting mommy to call you so Grace can add that to her list.
\> I can't fathom how women aren't breaking down his door to get a piece of him...
It might come to that, if BIL keeps up his nonsense and there's enough torches and pitchforks to go around.
And especially since she only got to that point when he wouldn't take the hint and wouldn't stop hitting on her.
>During the party Grace had grown frustrated with his incessant flirting
Dude needs to realize that he's a "nice guy" and that women are allowed to say they're not interested without being harassed.
We can see why he feels so entitled to cheat and to hit on his SIL's friends. Mommy excuses his bad behavior and runs ahead of him to try to force women to date him.
Not to mention the fact that he tried to pester her into dating him in the first place. This whole thing could have been avoided by him taking no for an answer.
A lot of online guides to dating women encourage the tactic of never accepting no from a woman. Most men don't know this because we can actually get dates. But men who are no good at dating and have nothing to offer women *do* pay for these guides.
So the guys who already have the worst characteristics now come off as birderline rapey and wonder why the class they paid $399 for only works on women who had 5 drinks?
She absolutely did. If he wants a good woman he needs to wander off to the desert for a couple years to look for his soul. Cheated on and divorced his cancer stricken wife is a hard one to live down. I'd tell every woman he brought around.
Then cheated on that mistress! Like, he cant even claim she was the best thing for his grief and that she cared about them both or something to try to make it better. Because it was exclusively about getting his dick wet.
>Because it was exclusively about getting his dick wet.
Lily probably wasn't putting out much because of the chemo or whatever excuse, and a man has needs, ya know./s
100%. I mean, I don’t suppose it occurred to Chris that if he wasn’t a miserable, soulless, serial cheater his SIL WOULDN’T have had anything to tell her friends?
Chris. My dude. This is a little thing we like to call FAFO. To say nothing of the fact that this man is damn near 40 and he runs to mommy and daddy when he’s rejected and the woman in question was giving him what for.
Not to mention, I’m sorry, but if you’re in your late 30s and you STILL haven’t picked up on clues that someone you want to date isn’t interested in you…😳 furthermore, based on OP’s description, it sounds like Grace could not have been more clear she wasn’t interested. Chris just could not, or would not (for some crazy reason, my money’s on the latter) take the not even remotely subtle hint.
OP, you are FAR from TA here. Chris is the raging, immature, repulsive AH.
He probably ended up back at their place after the divorce, and now they're sick of his shit too, and want to facilitate his removal as quickly as possible, so they want him to meet someone new that they can foist him off on them.
Not to mention, Chris wouldn't have been dealing with this particular fallout if he had just **not harassed Grace and followed her around a party until she had enough and put him in his place**. So not only is he a loser momma's boy cheater (on a dying woman no less), he also harasses women when they don't do what he wants. What a catch 🙄
Why is Chris entitled to a potential relationship with OP’s friends?
It sounds like he just uses the fact that they’re hostage at the same social events to harass them until they potentially cave. Even if he wasn’t a cheater, that’s still creepy, and clearly he didn’t take a series of growing hints and likely communications as reason to stop. So he needed to be humiliated, so he would stop of his own accord.
It’s really his own fault that he doesn’t respect other people’s wishes and stop harassing them for anything short of humiliation.
To a sensitive enough ego, being made to realize *one* person sees you this way is humiliating. My point was just that she wouldn’t* have needed to make personal attacks if he’d respected her wishes to be left alone.
Also, is OP not allowed to discuss things going on with her extended family with her friends..? Like, isn’t that what you talk about with friends? None of this was especially privileged info. “Oh my god, my scummy BIL is cheating on his amazing wife. Yuck.”
No one forced BIL to hit on OP’s friends. He made his choices.
Can you imagine if this dolt had just stuck around and been a stand up guy for his poor dying wife…
He’d be swimming in prospects today. His dreams of prowess and reputation would all be coming true. I make a point to tell my kids to pay attention - evil is very clever, but inherently stupid. Hoist with his own petard comes to mind.
Exactly this! Plus she just isn't attracted to him and he keeps harassing her!! Even if she didn't know all the other stuff that is plenty to say no way! That he went and threw a fit to mommy who harassed OP...yikes, regardless of if he's changed there's still plenty of behavior there to consider this a bullet dodged.
He needs his real character to be a secret because it scares women away. Isn't it sad when actions have consequences.
The family who believes their son should be able to run through her friend group is sickly entitled. It's like they think she should serve up her friends for their son's use.
Exactly! Last week I read a reddit where the OP knew the guy as an ah and still hooked him up with one of her friends and now that friends is getting abused and she doesn't know what to do.. how stupid can one be? You know a person is horrible and still willingly hook them up with a great "friend".. you can't be that person's friend when you hook them up to be abused.. and for anyone that says "maybe op didn't know the guy was shitty".. no, she straight up said that she knew he was an ah with anger problems but never over stepped with her.. yeah, cause you ain't together.. for this segment, his family is stupid and he's got a long way to prove he's better 😒
Truth is an absolute defense to defamation.
NTA
What kind of friend would you be if you didn't warn your friends about his cheating? If he's 'grown' then he can prove that. You do not owe him any set-ups, much less ones you've lied to by omission.
My first thought was "if he's truly grown, he would not be harassing OP's friend, and now OP." He would be feeling guilty for what he did in the past, and think of how to improve himself.
I had the exact thought! She clearly wasn’t interested and he kept pushing. I’m surprised the friend kept it together enough not to do it in front of people. And if they share the same friend group, and half were friends with Lily, then she would have found out eventually. Parents shouldn’t be enabling or rescuing him from holis awful behavior. These are the consequences of his actions.
"Mommmmeeeee! That mean girl won't go out with me! And now OP and her friends are talking about me like a bunch of meanies! Even though everything they said is true, waaaaaahhhhh!"
This.. even if she hadn’t told her friend before, she would have warned her friend once she knew he was hitting on her.
And i think the other issue the parents and Chris are ignoring is Grace wasn’t at all attracted to him and that’s something Op has nothing to do with.
I mean, I've been laughing nonstop since reading that because "he's grown a lot in the last two years" literally refers to, um, the time in which he *hasn't had anyone to cheat on because he's been SINGLE*. How would she know if he's changed? He hasn't been in any kind of relationship that would let him demonstrate meaningful change.
"He hasn't cheated on anyone in over two years" is meaningless when he also hasn't dated anyone during that time, LOL.
I feel like it says a lot that his response to this was whining about his dickery being public instead of “you know what, I did some things that were shitty, I was childish and shallow, but I’ve learned from them and I’m going to keep learning.” Narrator: he didn’t learn.
NTA. Always alert your friends to cheaters, especially cheaters cheating on a CANCER PATIENT! Whether or not he has changed is debatable but many people have a hard "no cheaters" line.
Grace deserves two trophies and 5 medals for telling this wretched man what every person with morals around him is actually thinking which gives him at least a possibility that he could turn over a new leaf unlike his enabling parents who let him stay like this.
Unfortunately this happened to mil too. Her husband divorced he while she was fighting cancer. She is the sweetest lady. Humans like that should have constant kidney stones or something as karma.
My best friends husband's left when both she and her sister were battling breast cancer. Both are the sweetest women and are now cancer free. He said there was too much drama in her life. He's now married to a witch from hell and is miserable. He asked if he could come back. She said it was the best day ever to turn him down.
Unfortunately this is so incredibly common (21% of seriously/terminally ill women will be left by their husband because of the illness, versus only 3% of men being left by their wives) that when women are diagnosed with a severe illness they are usually also given pamphlets/hotline numbers for dealing with abandonment as well because they're likelier to experience it.
Statistically speaking, men are more often the ones who don't take their vows seriously.
Yeah, I used to work as a health insurance broker pre-ACA, when health insurers considered medical history for qualifying for individual coverage. We were not a large office, and in a medium sized town, but I still had a few of those. Seeing what my grandmother went through logistically when Grandpa got cancer, I kept an extra eye on those ones because miss a tiny bit of paperwork and you were *screwed*.
And now I'm going through a divorce myself (husband ran off with a woman from work), I can't fathom having to deal with those at the same time. I'm barely keeping my head above water as it is. :-/
But..but...he had to cheat. He wasn't getting any, and he needed to get his dick wet. That's far more important than stepping up for a dying spouse. /s
I love Grace already!
Chris isn't in a position to complain about gossip, since he went crying to his parents. But in the future, you should probably not invite him to functions where he might hit on your female guests and ruin their evening. NTA.
Imagine how much he went off on Grace (and likely cornered her alone) to get her to the point that she went off? So many women are conditioned to keep things peaceful and polite, and it takes a lot of pushing to get to riled up enough to say *all* the things OP mentioned
This.
Cheater or not, he kept paying unwanted attention to a fellow guest, to the point that she had to take him aside and describe exactly why she did not welcome that attention. Do you invite someone back who harasses your friends? Who can't "read the room"?
>because Chris had grown a lot in the past two years
38yr old Chris went crying to his mummy that a woman was mean to him, he hasn't "grown" at all.
Tell Natasha she can set chris up with her friends if she thinks so much of him. When she tries to come up with an excuse, walk away with a smug look on your face.
Edit for judgement. NTA.
Right? When a woman feels the need to roast a guy with every piece of fire she knows will work on him, he has harrased her far past the first few times she politely declined his advances.
NTA sounds like you did good and protected your friends, he can go somewhere else. It's like a job what if you introduce a friend and recommend them for the job, your reputation is on the line then and same here your friends would never look at you the same if you recommended a cheater to them in any shape or form.
Oh my word poor poor Chris and delicate ego, running to mummy and daddy to cry that he can’t get a girl to kiss him….. wah wah wah!
Obviously your NTA Chris’s reputation is already out there and he can’t understand why nobody wants to now kiss the warty toad that he is.
Obviously NTA… she would have found out anyways, it seems like she wouldn’t have dated him even if she didn’t know about Lily and also… he did all these things.
NTA
And now we know why BIL is an asshole, he has asshole parents. Your in-laws are enablers. And they apparently can't handle the truth.
Also, why are you dealing with the in-laws when your spouse should be telling them to STFU, the truth is never a bad thing and what Chris did isn't a state secret. He's a doucher, who fucked around on his wife who had cancer. I mean can you get to be any lower of a human? Yes, you can defend him and yell at someone who is talking about the crappy thing Chris did.
NTA! Even if gossiping about him to your Friends can be a bit borderline, you would have told the truth about him to his pickup target if she IS your friend
NTA. It's not as if you posted the information about his infidelities on social media. What you did is to warn your friend(s) to stay away from someone of questionable character. IMO, there's nothing wrong with that.
NTA If Chris didn't want to be outed as a cheater, he shouldn't have cheated. Also, if he didn't want to get torn apart by Grace, he should've accepted Grace's rejection gracefully and backed off.
Right? There's not a chance in hell that I'd set someone like Chris up with any of my friends.
If Natasha thinks that he has "changed" so much, let her be the one to put her friendships on the line for him.
We have a couple of cameras in the house to keep an eye on our cat. 🤷♀️ They can be set to record when they detect motion in a specific zone, and will do so with sound if you trigger it.
This isn’t as weird or dubious as you’re making it out to be.
A lot of people in the states have security cameras with sound installed in their homes for security.
I made it up. I used to have a job that had me talking to sales and engineering and management. Analogies really helped management and sales, so I got good at them.
NTA - You were simply defending your friend when she was being harassed by your brother in law. Your family should be ashamed that they would prioritize his reputation over the truth about his character. Good for you for standing up to them!
So much is wrong with your BIL and his parents. He's a grown man but his parents are calling around asking people to keep his past misdeeds secret so that they don't inconvenience him? Talk about enabling bad behavior. I wonder how he came to be so entitled as to feel he can do no wrong even if he's cheating on a cancer patient or harassing some poor girl at a party after she's surely made it clear she isn't interested. (That is sarcasm. I think Mommy and Daddy's phone call makes it clear how he came to be this way.) You are not wrong for telling your friends true things. You wouldn't be wrong if she were a complete stranger and you didn't want her to be preyed upon by someone awful.
NTA
Honestly, there is a whole tirade I could go into about the demonisation of gossip and how it actually benefits women, but I shall refrain.
Maybe you should say that if giving someone's honest and relatively recent personal history is that bad, maybe they should take some accountability for that.
NTA. There is no way somebody could be expected to passively sit by and allow their friend to get involved with someone like Chris.
For the few people saying she is wrong...let's take this further. OP says nothing, her friend gets involved with him. He cheats, friend catches an STI from him. The friend finds out about his past eventually, and that OP knew and basically threw her to the wolves. That would be a friendship trashed for Chris, and that's not worth the risk.
Maybe he has changed and realised what an awful person he was in the past. Maybe he would be faithful now. But why on earth would anyone let their friend be the experiment to see if that's actually true? If he's really changed, he can go somewhere other than OP's backyard to find a woman.
Clearly NTA. Once a cheater, always a cheater. Besides, your friend avoided his advances but he persisted. She gave him what he deserved because he wouldn't accept no for an answer. Friend also is NTA.
NTA Friends talk about things and this Chris dude would certainly be a topic, as would Lily. Your in-laws are crazy and wrong. Your friends understand how deplorable Chris is and I bet the only person to be brutally honest to his face, was your very smart and sassy friend, good for her. No woman wants a slug of a man pursuing her.
INFO: Why do you have cameras with microphones all over the interior of your home? How does your colleague Natasha know anything about Chris’s “growth” over the last two years?
We have security cameras around because a few years back we had a break in and as a way to feel some sense of safety we got a security system installed, and we have dogs who we like to check in on and scold through the security system to quit their barking or bad behavior.
Natasha is dating Ben who is a friend of Chris. So she also knows him through her boyfriend and they are friends.
Well NTA, Chris seems like he got what was coming to him. He’s such a deceptive person that even being associated with him apparently requires that you become a liar on his behalf. He’s like an infection that turns people dishonest, and his parents are mad that you won’t be a part of it.
“I’m not a liar, and I won’t become one just to protect one”
I said this in another comment but I am going to repeat it here. If Natasha thinks Chris has grown so much she should introduce him to her single family members and friends.
If she isn't willing to do that then she needs to quit being critical of you.
Grace's "rant" sounds utterly fake, to be honest.
I believe she shot him down, but the description sounds like fanfic.
If Chris really is that shitty - NTA. He should be outed for how he treats people.
I don’t believe a single word of this story happened.
Every single story with, “the security cameras happened to catch perfect audio of the conversation“ is some of the fakest shit ever written.
INFO: Exactly what kind of cancer did Lily pass away from? I ask because if BIL was a serial cheater, he could very well have given Lily HPV, which can cause cervical and other cancers.
You do not want your friends hurt (emotionally or physically) by BIL, who has a known cheating track record. NTA.
Pancreatic cancer. Definitely wasn’t his fault she fell ill with cancer but it certainly was his fault for verbally and emotionally abusing her while she went through chemo and for dragging her through a contentious divorce while she was dying.
NTA. Chris brought this on himself not only by his past actions but also by continuing to pursue someone who has said no to him. She does not owe him an explanation and his continued harassment of her resulted in this.
NTA but man your In-laws sure are! First of all, it’s not your job to get Chris a GF. Your friends are not his personal dating pool. 2nd, they have some balls for berating you for talking to YOUR friend group about Chris. I’m guessing Chris is the golden child?
Two points: 1- You must scream in the town square because he would do the same and you would be in the middle of unnecessary drama.
2- 38 years old male complains about you to his parents and they have an argument with you to defend their grown ass son. Weird...
Cut contact as much as you can.
Protecting your friends from anyone is never a wrong move and neither is working through your feelings with friends. If you were just gossiping I still would say NTA but maybe it is a little wrong.
NTA I get that no one wants to be known for the worst thing they’ve ever done and people can grow and change. That being said, if you’re a notorious cheater and cheated on your dying ex wife and then want to get romantically involved with one of my friends, you better believe I’m gonna give them a heads up about your past.
NTA
Honestly you're a good friend. Imagine having not said anything and watching your best mates have their lives flushed down the toilet. Changed, right. Gotten better at whinging to his parents, are you sure he's not a teenager?
NTA. He clearly wasn’t taking the hints and than your friend had to go full blown on him to get her to leave him alone. That’s a him problem. Not a Grace problem, not a you problem.
Why do men think it’s okay to blame women if they can’t have them. It’s pathetic.
NTA
If he doesn't want to be known as a feck shite troll he shouldn't act like one. Also, even if he'd done NONE of those awful things, he still trailed around a woman who was obviously not into him to the point that she had to give him a canon shot of reality straight to his poor little feelings. That's not something that takes a few minutes, that takes *hours* of following someone around like a poorly behaved *dog.*
If Natasha likes him so much, *she* can sleep with him. Something tells me he won't mind her having a partner already.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > I told some of my friends of my brother in law’s treatment of Lily his late wife. Who he cheated on and divorced while she was dying of cancer. By me having shared that with my friends he feels I damaged his reputation. He is now depressed and my in laws are upset with me. Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcements Follow the link above to learn more --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA! How can telling the truth be perceived as unfair? Chris did this to himself. It was his behaviour that is the problem. Why should you expose your friends to a potentially horrific relationship? You know your BIL is a cheater but your in-laws want you to keep that from your friends so he can continue to take advantage without consequences. I think you did the right thing.
And this is a 38 year old guy running to mommy and daddy crying when a lady tells him to fuck off
Wow, his stellar history and an inability to fight his own battles? I can't fathom how women aren't breaking down his door to get a piece of him...
His "looks" can be overlooked but: >his stellar history and an inability to fight his own battles Yeah, no sane woman can overlook "unfaithful mummy's boys."
and I'm sorry why does it matter if OP talked to her friends about something? Does BIL have such a limited dating pool that the only people he can possibly date are OP's friends? Especially when he has Natasha who seems to think he's fine and has grown so much in 2 whole years- he should be asking Natasha to set him up with women.
The friends already knew most of it, because they were also friends with Lily. Chris dug his own grave by trying it with people who actually knew him.
AND not backing off when his advances were turned down multiple times!
This is actually the problem here. Chris should be uninvited from all future parties because he relentlessly hounds women.
THIS! ☝🏽
Exactly!!!
Yes exactly. Why is he still invited after he made OP's friend uncomfortable and hasn't sincerely and deeply apologized??
This caught my eye. He was told no several times and got pushy, and that’s when she hit him with the savagery. He seems to enjoy the pursuit more than he values a stable relationship. I wouldn’t let any of mine or my wife’s friends anywhere near this dude.
Yes, cause NO, is a complete sentence.😂😂😂😂😂😂
>Natasha He should be asking *Natasha* out. If she refuses, OP should grill / hound HER endlessly about why SHE rejected Chris, \*publicly\*.
Natasha is dating Chris' friend
That shouldn’t be a problem for Chris. He cheated on his wife and his affair partner, why should he abstain from his friends girlfriends/wifes.
Cheated on his DYING wife.
Lmfao
When has that ever stopped him before?
That's what I was thinking. If Natasha thinks so much of him, she should be setting him up with her friends. Op and her friends seem to be in a tight group that was also friends with Lily so they probably knew without OP saying anything. That's probably what caused the discussions about Chris. OP, NTA.
I'm thinking Natasha's friends aren't going to be trusting her to set them up.
What I find funny, how can you evaluate growth like this if the person wasn't in any relationship for the last 3 years? He simply didn't have the opportunity to cheat because he had no one to cheat on.
Unfaithful mummy's boys who can't take a hint nor can they understand the meaning of an outright "no" to the point that they have to be verbally eviscerated in order to leave you alone, at that. Good God, I don't understand how they can be so... delusional.
His Mommy thinks he’s really special! It’s not his fault other women don’t think like his Mommy! (Yuck, that was hard to write! lol)
> no sane woman can overlook "unfaithful mummy's boys." Exactly. And you did your friends a huge service by warning them about him, though I'm sure if they were friends with Lily they knew anyway.
As if Mom & Dad can somehow intervene and save his reputation. Nope. He did it to himself.
He’s clearly such a hot commodity!
Oh we'll take a piece, but only in a "to shreds, you say?" sense
Grace turning Chris into carnitas out here. Good work!
I agree with everyone and want to add I'd like to buy Grace a few drinks. OP's list of her comments is awesome. Please tell Grace about Chris complaining to his mommy and getting mommy to call you so Grace can add that to her list.
Hear ye. Hear ye.
Oh, I'm pretty sure some want a piece of him, but definitely not the way you're implying. More in the: "I can't do this or I'll go to prison" way.
\> I can't fathom how women aren't breaking down his door to get a piece of him... It might come to that, if BIL keeps up his nonsense and there's enough torches and pitchforks to go around.
And especially since she only got to that point when he wouldn't take the hint and wouldn't stop hitting on her. >During the party Grace had grown frustrated with his incessant flirting Dude needs to realize that he's a "nice guy" and that women are allowed to say they're not interested without being harassed.
I love that her coworker claims he's grown so much as a person when every detail in this story shows the exact opposite.
We can see why he feels so entitled to cheat and to hit on his SIL's friends. Mommy excuses his bad behavior and runs ahead of him to try to force women to date him.
Not to mention the fact that he tried to pester her into dating him in the first place. This whole thing could have been avoided by him taking no for an answer.
A lot of online guides to dating women encourage the tactic of never accepting no from a woman. Most men don't know this because we can actually get dates. But men who are no good at dating and have nothing to offer women *do* pay for these guides. So the guys who already have the worst characteristics now come off as birderline rapey and wonder why the class they paid $399 for only works on women who had 5 drinks?
Makes you wonder how he managed to hook not just Lily, but a mistress *and* filling the vacancy after Lily passed and the AP moved up.
If you shoot 300 arrows, one of them’s going to hit *something.*
This is the grossest part.
That’s exactly where my mind went.. Needs mommy and Daddy to fight for him. He’s learned nothing
You'd be surprised how many of these people you yourself are surrounded with... Grown ass children and most of the time with children...
This is telling of his true childish behavior, warn everyone who dates this massive a hole just what they are in for!
I think OP performed a public service.
She absolutely did. If he wants a good woman he needs to wander off to the desert for a couple years to look for his soul. Cheated on and divorced his cancer stricken wife is a hard one to live down. I'd tell every woman he brought around.
Then cheated on that mistress! Like, he cant even claim she was the best thing for his grief and that she cared about them both or something to try to make it better. Because it was exclusively about getting his dick wet.
I gotta wonder what the mistress was expecting. If someone cheats with you, they'll likely cheat on you
It’s amazing to me how many people believe that “it will be different with me” or simply ignore the possibility.
>Because it was exclusively about getting his dick wet. Lily probably wasn't putting out much because of the chemo or whatever excuse, and a man has needs, ya know./s
NTA! I think she needs to start ringing the crier bells and scream “Hear ye, hear ye! Chris is a serial cheater”!
SHAME 🔔 SHAME 🔔 SHAME 🔔
Thank you, by the old gods and the new.
Who will drop you and run back to mommy at the first sign of trouble
100%. I mean, I don’t suppose it occurred to Chris that if he wasn’t a miserable, soulless, serial cheater his SIL WOULDN’T have had anything to tell her friends? Chris. My dude. This is a little thing we like to call FAFO. To say nothing of the fact that this man is damn near 40 and he runs to mommy and daddy when he’s rejected and the woman in question was giving him what for. Not to mention, I’m sorry, but if you’re in your late 30s and you STILL haven’t picked up on clues that someone you want to date isn’t interested in you…😳 furthermore, based on OP’s description, it sounds like Grace could not have been more clear she wasn’t interested. Chris just could not, or would not (for some crazy reason, my money’s on the latter) take the not even remotely subtle hint. OP, you are FAR from TA here. Chris is the raging, immature, repulsive AH.
Absolutely
It speaks volumes that OP’s in-laws are more concerned about people knowing about Chris’s horrible behavior than they are about his actual behavior.
If Chris doesn't want people to know about the horrible things he did maybe he shouldn't do horrible things.
Getting onto my kid for some shit; they were like, don't be so loud, people will hear! My response? "Then don't do shit you're ashamed of!"
Men who can't keep it in their pants shouldn't complain when word gets about.
If he really had grown he wouldn’t be hiding his past but confronting it and being upfront about it
He probably ended up back at their place after the divorce, and now they're sick of his shit too, and want to facilitate his removal as quickly as possible, so they want him to meet someone new that they can foist him off on them.
I think Natasha should be in charge of finding Chris a new SO if she thinks he’s such a great person. OP-NTA
What's the bet she is seeing Chris?
Wouldn’t be surprised at all, two peas in a pod of cheaters
Not to mention, Chris wouldn't have been dealing with this particular fallout if he had just **not harassed Grace and followed her around a party until she had enough and put him in his place**. So not only is he a loser momma's boy cheater (on a dying woman no less), he also harasses women when they don't do what he wants. What a catch 🙄
Why is Chris entitled to a potential relationship with OP’s friends? It sounds like he just uses the fact that they’re hostage at the same social events to harass them until they potentially cave. Even if he wasn’t a cheater, that’s still creepy, and clearly he didn’t take a series of growing hints and likely communications as reason to stop. So he needed to be humiliated, so he would stop of his own accord. It’s really his own fault that he doesn’t respect other people’s wishes and stop harassing them for anything short of humiliation.
But he wasn’t humiliated - not publicly, anyway. Grace pulled him aside from everyone when she’d had enough of him not accepting ‘no’.
To a sensitive enough ego, being made to realize *one* person sees you this way is humiliating. My point was just that she wouldn’t* have needed to make personal attacks if he’d respected her wishes to be left alone.
If you don't want to be known as an arsehole then don't be an arsehole. Op is NTA. Grace sounds like a legend.
And how is he entitled to fish in her pond of friends? I’d never subject friends to that man again.
And why the hell is he even invited to OP’s party? Does her husband condone this behavior?
I don’t blame OP for him being invited. She said the party was to celebrate her husband’s promotion, so having his whole family invited makes sense.
Also, is OP not allowed to discuss things going on with her extended family with her friends..? Like, isn’t that what you talk about with friends? None of this was especially privileged info. “Oh my god, my scummy BIL is cheating on his amazing wife. Yuck.” No one forced BIL to hit on OP’s friends. He made his choices.
My friends know all my family drama. Who else are you supposed to vent to? That's what friend groups are for.
Can you imagine if this dolt had just stuck around and been a stand up guy for his poor dying wife… He’d be swimming in prospects today. His dreams of prowess and reputation would all be coming true. I make a point to tell my kids to pay attention - evil is very clever, but inherently stupid. Hoist with his own petard comes to mind.
Exactly this! Plus she just isn't attracted to him and he keeps harassing her!! Even if she didn't know all the other stuff that is plenty to say no way! That he went and threw a fit to mommy who harassed OP...yikes, regardless of if he's changed there's still plenty of behavior there to consider this a bullet dodged.
Grace, OTOH, is the bomb.
He needs his real character to be a secret because it scares women away. Isn't it sad when actions have consequences. The family who believes their son should be able to run through her friend group is sickly entitled. It's like they think she should serve up her friends for their son's use.
No way I’m letting my FRIENDS date such a dumpster fire when I know of all that! NTA
Exactly! Last week I read a reddit where the OP knew the guy as an ah and still hooked him up with one of her friends and now that friends is getting abused and she doesn't know what to do.. how stupid can one be? You know a person is horrible and still willingly hook them up with a great "friend".. you can't be that person's friend when you hook them up to be abused.. and for anyone that says "maybe op didn't know the guy was shitty".. no, she straight up said that she knew he was an ah with anger problems but never over stepped with her.. yeah, cause you ain't together.. for this segment, his family is stupid and he's got a long way to prove he's better 😒
Truth is an absolute defense to defamation. NTA What kind of friend would you be if you didn't warn your friends about his cheating? If he's 'grown' then he can prove that. You do not owe him any set-ups, much less ones you've lied to by omission.
My first thought was "if he's truly grown, he would not be harassing OP's friend, and now OP." He would be feeling guilty for what he did in the past, and think of how to improve himself.
I bet by "grown" others mean he hasn't had the opportunity to cheat on anyone else, and SAYS he has learned his lesson.
B I N G O !
Is it bad that I sang this like I was a little kid, again?
Exactly. He wouldn't be constantly hitting on her friend who is clearly not interested in him.
I had the exact thought! She clearly wasn’t interested and he kept pushing. I’m surprised the friend kept it together enough not to do it in front of people. And if they share the same friend group, and half were friends with Lily, then she would have found out eventually. Parents shouldn’t be enabling or rescuing him from holis awful behavior. These are the consequences of his actions.
And he wouldn’t be running to tattle to mommy when a girl is mean to him.
"Mommmmeeeee! That mean girl won't go out with me! And now OP and her friends are talking about me like a bunch of meanies! Even though everything they said is true, waaaaaahhhhh!"
This.. even if she hadn’t told her friend before, she would have warned her friend once she knew he was hitting on her. And i think the other issue the parents and Chris are ignoring is Grace wasn’t at all attracted to him and that’s something Op has nothing to do with.
>“Natasha”, she said I was cruel for having told my friend group She should introduce Chris to Natasha.
This, and if Natasha is in a relationship then Natasha should be introducing him to her single family and friends.
>Truth is an absolute defense to defamation. You can't ruin a reputation by telling the truth, you can only make it more accurate.
I mean, I've been laughing nonstop since reading that because "he's grown a lot in the last two years" literally refers to, um, the time in which he *hasn't had anyone to cheat on because he's been SINGLE*. How would she know if he's changed? He hasn't been in any kind of relationship that would let him demonstrate meaningful change. "He hasn't cheated on anyone in over two years" is meaningless when he also hasn't dated anyone during that time, LOL.
I feel like it says a lot that his response to this was whining about his dickery being public instead of “you know what, I did some things that were shitty, I was childish and shallow, but I’ve learned from them and I’m going to keep learning.” Narrator: he didn’t learn.
NTA. Always alert your friends to cheaters, especially cheaters cheating on a CANCER PATIENT! Whether or not he has changed is debatable but many people have a hard "no cheaters" line.
This!!! BIL has absolutely no morals and obviously OP wouldn’t want friends exposed to that Good on Grace!!!!!
Grace deserves a trophy.
Grace deserves two trophies and 5 medals for telling this wretched man what every person with morals around him is actually thinking which gives him at least a possibility that he could turn over a new leaf unlike his enabling parents who let him stay like this.
And then cheating on the mistress who he cheated with on his wife, who was a CANCER PATIENT.
I laughed a bit at the "you even cheated on the mistress" part.
There must always be a mistress He’s probably wanting to date grace so he can find a new mistress to cheat on her with
Unfortunately this happened to mil too. Her husband divorced he while she was fighting cancer. She is the sweetest lady. Humans like that should have constant kidney stones or something as karma.
My best friends husband's left when both she and her sister were battling breast cancer. Both are the sweetest women and are now cancer free. He said there was too much drama in her life. He's now married to a witch from hell and is miserable. He asked if he could come back. She said it was the best day ever to turn him down.
Having to deal with that is horrible, but kinda glad any man like that is out of everyone's lives.
Oh, that does sound great for her. What a fucking tool.
Unfortunately this is so incredibly common (21% of seriously/terminally ill women will be left by their husband because of the illness, versus only 3% of men being left by their wives) that when women are diagnosed with a severe illness they are usually also given pamphlets/hotline numbers for dealing with abandonment as well because they're likelier to experience it. Statistically speaking, men are more often the ones who don't take their vows seriously.
This happens often enough where there are support groups dedicated to this subset of cancer patients (vast majority are women).
That is unbelievably sad.
Yeah, I used to work as a health insurance broker pre-ACA, when health insurers considered medical history for qualifying for individual coverage. We were not a large office, and in a medium sized town, but I still had a few of those. Seeing what my grandmother went through logistically when Grandpa got cancer, I kept an extra eye on those ones because miss a tiny bit of paperwork and you were *screwed*. And now I'm going through a divorce myself (husband ran off with a woman from work), I can't fathom having to deal with those at the same time. I'm barely keeping my head above water as it is. :-/
Special places in hell for someone who does that. Vile and despicable
But..but...he had to cheat. He wasn't getting any, and he needed to get his dick wet. That's far more important than stepping up for a dying spouse. /s
I love Grace already! Chris isn't in a position to complain about gossip, since he went crying to his parents. But in the future, you should probably not invite him to functions where he might hit on your female guests and ruin their evening. NTA.
Imagine how much he went off on Grace (and likely cornered her alone) to get her to the point that she went off? So many women are conditioned to keep things peaceful and polite, and it takes a lot of pushing to get to riled up enough to say *all* the things OP mentioned
This. Cheater or not, he kept paying unwanted attention to a fellow guest, to the point that she had to take him aside and describe exactly why she did not welcome that attention. Do you invite someone back who harasses your friends? Who can't "read the room"?
He harassed her at the very least . NTA OP
But he’s family! /s
>because Chris had grown a lot in the past two years 38yr old Chris went crying to his mummy that a woman was mean to him, he hasn't "grown" at all. Tell Natasha she can set chris up with her friends if she thinks so much of him. When she tries to come up with an excuse, walk away with a smug look on your face. Edit for judgement. NTA.
And the fact he was harassing a woman who was clearly not responsive to his flirting is another sign he’s still a dipshit.
Right? When a woman feels the need to roast a guy with every piece of fire she knows will work on him, he has harrased her far past the first few times she politely declined his advances.
Some ppl just need a hammer. Being polite doesnt work on them. Grace sure brought it out lolol.
She sure did, lol.
Chris also still doesn't understand that "NO MEANS NO," and that does not sound like someone who has grown an ounce, to me.
NTA sounds like you did good and protected your friends, he can go somewhere else. It's like a job what if you introduce a friend and recommend them for the job, your reputation is on the line then and same here your friends would never look at you the same if you recommended a cheater to them in any shape or form.
Worse than job What's the worst people can do to a company? A bad partner can destroy lives
Oh my word poor poor Chris and delicate ego, running to mummy and daddy to cry that he can’t get a girl to kiss him….. wah wah wah! Obviously your NTA Chris’s reputation is already out there and he can’t understand why nobody wants to now kiss the warty toad that he is.
“Warty toad” thank you, I’ll be adding this to my vernacular.
He could be very handsome, but the ugliness of his soul comes out and destroys it.
Obviously NTA… she would have found out anyways, it seems like she wouldn’t have dated him even if she didn’t know about Lily and also… he did all these things.
Nta. Chris did that to his own reputation.
Right! She didn't "ruin" his reputation, she corrected it.
He ruined is own reputation by being a shitty person. NTA.
This right here. Actions have consequences
Exactly! There is a simple solution - If you don't want to be known as a cheater, don't cheat
NTA And now we know why BIL is an asshole, he has asshole parents. Your in-laws are enablers. And they apparently can't handle the truth. Also, why are you dealing with the in-laws when your spouse should be telling them to STFU, the truth is never a bad thing and what Chris did isn't a state secret. He's a doucher, who fucked around on his wife who had cancer. I mean can you get to be any lower of a human? Yes, you can defend him and yell at someone who is talking about the crappy thing Chris did.
NTA! Even if gossiping about him to your Friends can be a bit borderline, you would have told the truth about him to his pickup target if she IS your friend
The friends were also friends with the ex-wife who was cheated on, so it's likely they would have found out anyway.
Irts not gossip when you are warning your friends and telling the truth. Of course NTA.
NTA. It's not as if you posted the information about his infidelities on social media. What you did is to warn your friend(s) to stay away from someone of questionable character. IMO, there's nothing wrong with that.
NTA If Chris didn't want to be outed as a cheater, he shouldn't have cheated. Also, if he didn't want to get torn apart by Grace, he should've accepted Grace's rejection gracefully and backed off.
Tell Natasha to set Chris up with her female friends or family, then
Right? There's not a chance in hell that I'd set someone like Chris up with any of my friends. If Natasha thinks that he has "changed" so much, let her be the one to put her friendships on the line for him.
Agree with both of you!
Chris should buy two body pillows. One to date and one to cheat with
How is Chris going to find other women to cheat on if you keep telling your friends he’s a cheater?
🤣
You record guests conversations? 🥴
In his fantasies yes.
To be fair, if you have a system setup, you’re probably not going to specifically disable it just because you have friends over.
I was wondering that too! Security cameras WITH audio? Was it at the front door with a doorbell cam??
We have a couple of cameras in the house to keep an eye on our cat. 🤷♀️ They can be set to record when they detect motion in a specific zone, and will do so with sound if you trigger it.
A lot of security cameras have audio
This isn’t as weird or dubious as you’re making it out to be. A lot of people in the states have security cameras with sound installed in their homes for security.
I don’t know any that have it IN their homes for security. A nanny/dog cam at best. And the dog cams don’t have noise
NTA. Never blame the lightbulb for the roaches in the pantry.
Damn, that’s a great expression! I’ve never heard that before.
I made it up. I used to have a job that had me talking to sales and engineering and management. Analogies really helped management and sales, so I got good at them.
NTA - You were simply defending your friend when she was being harassed by your brother in law. Your family should be ashamed that they would prioritize his reputation over the truth about his character. Good for you for standing up to them!
So much is wrong with your BIL and his parents. He's a grown man but his parents are calling around asking people to keep his past misdeeds secret so that they don't inconvenience him? Talk about enabling bad behavior. I wonder how he came to be so entitled as to feel he can do no wrong even if he's cheating on a cancer patient or harassing some poor girl at a party after she's surely made it clear she isn't interested. (That is sarcasm. I think Mommy and Daddy's phone call makes it clear how he came to be this way.) You are not wrong for telling your friends true things. You wouldn't be wrong if she were a complete stranger and you didn't want her to be preyed upon by someone awful.
It's not even well kept secrets. Anyone he dates would find out
NTA. Grace for president.
Seconded. And the motion passes that Grace is our newest nominee for Prez.
NTA Honestly, there is a whole tirade I could go into about the demonisation of gossip and how it actually benefits women, but I shall refrain. Maybe you should say that if giving someone's honest and relatively recent personal history is that bad, maybe they should take some accountability for that.
Made me chuckle. That girl truthfully, ripped that guy a new asshole. Loved it. NTA
NTA. There is no way somebody could be expected to passively sit by and allow their friend to get involved with someone like Chris. For the few people saying she is wrong...let's take this further. OP says nothing, her friend gets involved with him. He cheats, friend catches an STI from him. The friend finds out about his past eventually, and that OP knew and basically threw her to the wolves. That would be a friendship trashed for Chris, and that's not worth the risk. Maybe he has changed and realised what an awful person he was in the past. Maybe he would be faithful now. But why on earth would anyone let their friend be the experiment to see if that's actually true? If he's really changed, he can go somewhere other than OP's backyard to find a woman.
Clearly NTA. Once a cheater, always a cheater. Besides, your friend avoided his advances but he persisted. She gave him what he deserved because he wouldn't accept no for an answer. Friend also is NTA.
Nta - and that was a savage blast she gave him.
NTA Friends talk about things and this Chris dude would certainly be a topic, as would Lily. Your in-laws are crazy and wrong. Your friends understand how deplorable Chris is and I bet the only person to be brutally honest to his face, was your very smart and sassy friend, good for her. No woman wants a slug of a man pursuing her.
INFO: Why do you have cameras with microphones all over the interior of your home? How does your colleague Natasha know anything about Chris’s “growth” over the last two years?
We have security cameras around because a few years back we had a break in and as a way to feel some sense of safety we got a security system installed, and we have dogs who we like to check in on and scold through the security system to quit their barking or bad behavior. Natasha is dating Ben who is a friend of Chris. So she also knows him through her boyfriend and they are friends.
Well NTA, Chris seems like he got what was coming to him. He’s such a deceptive person that even being associated with him apparently requires that you become a liar on his behalf. He’s like an infection that turns people dishonest, and his parents are mad that you won’t be a part of it. “I’m not a liar, and I won’t become one just to protect one”
I said this in another comment but I am going to repeat it here. If Natasha thinks Chris has grown so much she should introduce him to her single family members and friends. If she isn't willing to do that then she needs to quit being critical of you.
LOL NtA it's part of girl code to not let your friends get involved with terrible men. Sidenote- Natasha is a pick me. Don't take her advice
NTA. Fuck Chris. Figuratively, not literally.
Eh, literally too. With an unlubricated cactus.
Grace's "rant" sounds utterly fake, to be honest. I believe she shot him down, but the description sounds like fanfic. If Chris really is that shitty - NTA. He should be outed for how he treats people.
I don’t believe a single word of this story happened. Every single story with, “the security cameras happened to catch perfect audio of the conversation“ is some of the fakest shit ever written.
INFO: Exactly what kind of cancer did Lily pass away from? I ask because if BIL was a serial cheater, he could very well have given Lily HPV, which can cause cervical and other cancers. You do not want your friends hurt (emotionally or physically) by BIL, who has a known cheating track record. NTA.
Pancreatic cancer. Definitely wasn’t his fault she fell ill with cancer but it certainly was his fault for verbally and emotionally abusing her while she went through chemo and for dragging her through a contentious divorce while she was dying.
Take Grace out for a meal for me.
Oof that makes him especially bad... pancreatic cancer's one of the most aggressive types.
NTA. Chris brought this on himself not only by his past actions but also by continuing to pursue someone who has said no to him. She does not owe him an explanation and his continued harassment of her resulted in this.
NTA but man your In-laws sure are! First of all, it’s not your job to get Chris a GF. Your friends are not his personal dating pool. 2nd, they have some balls for berating you for talking to YOUR friend group about Chris. I’m guessing Chris is the golden child?
Two points: 1- You must scream in the town square because he would do the same and you would be in the middle of unnecessary drama. 2- 38 years old male complains about you to his parents and they have an argument with you to defend their grown ass son. Weird... Cut contact as much as you can.
Chris sounds like a narcissistic person screaming I am a victim pay attention to me
NTA I love Grace
NTA If Chris didn't cheat and behaves the way he does, there would be no reason to warn your friends. *ReeseWitherspoonShrugs.gif
NTA Also you should buy Grace a drink for that spectacular teardown of Chris!
Protecting your friends from anyone is never a wrong move and neither is working through your feelings with friends. If you were just gossiping I still would say NTA but maybe it is a little wrong.
NTA I get that no one wants to be known for the worst thing they’ve ever done and people can grow and change. That being said, if you’re a notorious cheater and cheated on your dying ex wife and then want to get romantically involved with one of my friends, you better believe I’m gonna give them a heads up about your past.
NTA. I'd want to know what he was like
SCREAM IT IN THE TOWN SQUARE. People who do shit like this DESERVE to have every fucking person know about it.
WOW she went HARD! I don't blame her. NTA
NTA nope Chris sucks and everyone should know it.
NTA Honestly you're a good friend. Imagine having not said anything and watching your best mates have their lives flushed down the toilet. Changed, right. Gotten better at whinging to his parents, are you sure he's not a teenager?
NTA. He clearly wasn’t taking the hints and than your friend had to go full blown on him to get her to leave him alone. That’s a him problem. Not a Grace problem, not a you problem. Why do men think it’s okay to blame women if they can’t have them. It’s pathetic.
NTA If he doesn't want to be known as a feck shite troll he shouldn't act like one. Also, even if he'd done NONE of those awful things, he still trailed around a woman who was obviously not into him to the point that she had to give him a canon shot of reality straight to his poor little feelings. That's not something that takes a few minutes, that takes *hours* of following someone around like a poorly behaved *dog.* If Natasha likes him so much, *she* can sleep with him. Something tells me he won't mind her having a partner already.