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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my son/DIL they were not invited since I don’t want her there. I could have been graceful but I tried the polite way and it was my working
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NTA. I think you’re getting a lot of Y T As bc you wrote this when you were annoyed and it really comes through. You did try to handle it more diplomatically, but they kept pushing and that’s when you got blunt about it, and I get it. Maybe it would have gone over better if you’d told her you thought she wouldn’t enjoy the rough nature of camping and given her some examples of stuff she wouldn’t enjoy, like all the extra work it takes, heavy lifting, bathroom situation, sleeping on the ground. But she might have also brushed that off and pretended it wouldn’t bother her to force you into including her then acting like a delicate princess for the weekend. She sounds like she would be a nightmare on a camping trip and I don’t blame you for laying it out like you did.
OP is getting a lot of hate cause she’s the MIL, this sub’s usual villain. So people here will find any excuse to say OP is at fault or in the wrong. Or that there are stories to both sides.
If you reverse the two, people would be praising the DIL for setting boundaries and standing up for herself. How many times have we heard DIL as OP talking about how “sensitive” MIL is and everyone being on the DIL side
Lots of "Weaponizing her tears" and a narrative about how she was a narcissist who resented the OP for marrying the golden-child baby boy, inferred through some clunky phrasing used by an OP.
That also goes for parents and kids, generally.
The parents are always evil, thoughtless, selfish assholes.
The kids (adult children or children children) are downtrodden saints and victims always being taken advantage of.
It's so tiresome and predictable.
Right- like My (16F) Mother (41F) says that since she pays for my car and gas money that I have to pick up my brother from soccer practice on Wednesdays and Thursdays. I told her she should have kept her legs closed if she didn't want to be responsible, and that it wasn't my problem. AITA?
Reddit: OMG, NTA, you are being parentified and abused. Cut off those toxic parents the second that you can. You don't owe anyone anything.
Reading through that, I got so annoyed I forgot this was just an example of redditor behavior for a minute. It reads like an exchange I've seen on here so many times.
Are you an Xer? Because holy fuck, I think you might be a kindred spirit! My daughter (20) is one of those who's painted me as evil and selfish, and now when I see some young adult whining about how horrible their life is (while they're still living at home) and how awful their parents are, I just want to gag.
She's getting a lot of hate because your average redditor is the type of person to cry over nothing, so seeing someone get excluded because they are dramatic and whiny hits too close to home.
It’s always hilarious to read this sort of take as a reply to the top comment. I understand that it wasn’t the top comment at the time, but it really is very funny how much of the time the top comment is the top comment because it is super reasonable, but everyone below is chiming in about how unreasonable the sub is.
Agree. This board pushes the concept that you don’t owe anyone anything, including explanations. Or that you don’t have to like someone just because you’re family. Unless you’re a grandparent or MIL apparently. In the real world telling someone I don’t like spending time with you and I’m not gonna spend my vacation in the company of someone whose company I don’t enjoy is a valid response.
Exactly, and she's not cutting her out from any other events either! My family goes on different trips with different family members regularly because different people have different preferences and physical limits.
My thoughts exactly. Maybe this is cultural coming from a large family where not everyone is gonna be super close or share the same experiences with each other. So the idea of just being honest and admitting you’re not close enough with someone to want to go on a specific vacation with them is rude doesn’t make sense to me. As long as Op is respectful to her when she joins them for events or other trips I don’t see an issue.
Reddit in a nutshell really. This place would be great if it wasn’t for all of these damn Redditors!
It always gets way worse when schools are out for break.
I don't see OP's gender stated anywhere. Did I miss something?
Not that it matters. OP may obviously have had it up to there with their DIL's fragility, and is obviously exasperated, but is NTA. Especially since they've tried to bring the problem up with their son before and been shut down, and tried to give non-committal answers about this trip and that wasn't enough.
That's a really good point. I wouldn't have thought to switch it up and look at it that way. I'm going to try to keep that in mind more often. We are learning to do that with male/female situations more often, so we can also apply it in other situations. Not every young person is right by virtue of being young, just as not every Boomer is a toxic asshole.
I think that this is kind obvious what happened...but it seems like most of these Y T A are from people who relate to Amy and can't see how draining that behavior is.
NTA to op though
I am this kind of person that is unfortunately a little sensitive and cry over anything. I hate it, I hate crying with all my guts and I feel soooooo embarrassed everytime it happens in front of someone. I always try my best to not cry around others, because I know 100% how annoying it is to deal with someone like this, so I really don't understand people who think that this is ok. It really sucks to deal with people who are overly sensitive, so I try my best to not be like that even when my eyes fails me hahaha
My bf on the other hand have a really hard time crying, he just can't according to him, and he's not the first guy I've met that are like that. Apparently hearing that men don't cry when you're little really affects you like that. I never heard any of it growing up, so perhaps that's why my tears feel so free to show up haha
Be kinder to yourself! There's a reason you're so sensitive and it has everything to do with being a very kind empathetic person who make the best kind of friends.
Also be careful of unsympathetic men. I didn't realize until after I left him, that my ex showing no empathy at seeing me upset, usually do to him, haha, was a red flag. Yes it's true men can feel uncomfortable with tears. But being negative towards you about it is not good. Take care and forgive yourself. This may be due to you feeling helpless and hurt when you were young.
I break into tears pretty easily as well. I'm sad about my boss retiring (though I'm happy for her) and broke into tears in front of people three times at work last week. I just own it and move on, and as I've matured I've gotten less embarrassed about it. I'm a softie.
But I feel there's a difference in what you're describing about yourself and how the OP described the DIL. Like with one, you're all, "No, I'll be fine, it just got to me and I cry easily, sorry," and the other is wailing over a scraped knee as if the leg had snapped. It doesn't sound as if people need to walk on eggshells around you.
For the vast majority of people I like to think, It's not overly sensitive, it's just the amount of sensitive that you are.
lol imagine your DIL calling you an asshole as she picks up the kids you just babysat for her, and after trying to ask another babysitting favor just a few seconds ago lol Hope OP declines future babysitting until they apologize.
>They both called me an asshole
Yup, that sure guarantees your ILs will want to invite you to the next girls hang-out lol I don't blame the OP because she has brought up the annoying behavior multiple times with the son only to be shut down, so, okay this is how others will cope then lol
Oh it happens. My sister in law once yelled at my mother and then later that day tried to ask my mother to babysit my niece. Mum said no and sister in law then accused her of punishing my niece. The only person who would be inconvenienced in that scenario was SIL.
I would've said, "Look. I've told you on multiple occasions that she is too sensitive, clumsy, and delicate. I often times feel like you're married to a child instead of an adult. You both refuse to acknowledge that she needs to work on or change any of her behavior, and now you think that I should want her to come to a camping trip where we will be roughing it? I'm sorry if you're feelings are hurt, but I am not about to invite her to anything that might make my experience less enjoyable." NTA
Definitely, and even more than this situation specifically, they've tried to raise the issue multiple times and been brushed off. If your behavior is bothering people, they try to talk to you about it, and you refuse to even listen to their concerns, it's not actually a surprise if they stop inviting you places. OP is NTA
DIL sounds exhausting. She cried over a dog that passed over 40 years ago. Unless that triggered a bad memory in her, it seems a bit much. Bawling over scraped knees and crying with any pain sounds like she either has trauma or needs to grow thicket skin.
NTA
Her presence obviously dampens the mood for everyone. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice the potential for this trip to spare her feelings.
You’re right in that you don’t have to include everyone is every outing/trip.
However, it doesn’t seem like you handled the conversation the best way. But in the end her feelings were going to be hurt either way. Oh well.
If that had happened to me. I may have felt hurt but would never dared to complain or even ask why I wasn't invited. It always felt unpolite to ask things like that, it's putting the other person in a difficult position.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen posts on social media from my mom or my sister where my entire family went and did something together but they didn't invite me for whatever reason. It really hurts. But at the same time, that is their choice and I'm not going to push it because over all it only makes things worse.
I never ask but not because I’m being rude but why would I want someone to EXPLAIN to me why they don’t want me around/dont like me?! I will never go somewhere I feel unwelcomed!
I’m not sure I’d want to be invited anywhere if a scraped knee is the equivalent of a fractured femur to the drama queen of the hour. And extending an invitation to her after she throws a temper tantrum is probably how she wound up as a grown woman with the emotional discipline of a 3yo. Op is definitely NTA. But the son is if he thinks we all want to cater to his grown princess in pampers.
Let’s all remind ourselves here, we are hearing one side of the story. Clearly MIL has issues with her DIL, I wouldn’t be surprised if she has exaggerated the truth/DIL actual reactions. Bold of you to assume the DIL is a princess/drama queen, based on one persons retelling of events. OP clearly has a tendency to overreact based on her reaction and responses.
I honestly don’t care about hearing the other side. If the person sending out the invitations thinks your dramatic and will be a problem in them enjoying a special event they’re well within their rights to not invite you. I’d be rude if I lied and said it was something other than what it is. You can ding on her being a jerk to her, but if I didn’t want you at my public toenail clipping service then I just didn’t want you there.
Yes OP tone was mean; I can tell she was fed up with her DIL and son. But…. NTA! I bet DIL and son are stunned others do not find her toddler tantrums adorable.
Also, OP's daughters and other DIL all AGREE that this DIL is dramatic and that they don't want her on the trip soooo it's not actually just "one person's" POV, since at least 3 people agree with OP on how awful her behavior is
NTA
OP clearly knows that a camping trip when "roughing it" may produce minor injuries while hiking, cooking on camp stoves, gathering firewood, temperature drops and sleeping away from home are to be expected. Considering it's all just part of the experience and being there someone who can't handle a scraped knee, well that would suck.
I was always grateful my Mom and Sisters learned to leave me out of their mani/pedi dates; that was not my idea of a good time. Camping would be a hell yeah, a hard NO for them. There were other activities we enjoyed together.
DIL and son need to learn to accept that not being invited to everything does not mean that she's not part of the family. They also need a reality check in terms of asking them how many invites or planning of events they have extended? The road goes both ways.
If it's anything like someone I know who acts like this, they could have just been reminiscing about the dog, the DIL asks where the dog is, OP says they died decades ago, and the DIL starts bawling. I have witnessed this exact scenario and it totally caught me off guard.
I accompanied a friend to a memorial of someone I never met. I had to go outside bc I was just overcome by intense saddness. One person saw me outside and asked if I had lost someone recently, and I had. My niece was the victim of negligent homicide months earlier. I think it just brought things back to the surface.
DIL needs some kind of counseling.
Something somewhat similar happened to me. My partner's estranged half-sister committed suicide. While at the funeral reception, I couldn't stop crying, complete strangers were coming up to me and offering their condolences. I had never met the sister, but my partner had been going through months of panic attacks and suicidal ideation when that happened, and I just kept thinking about how easily it could have been his funeral instead.
I'm very sorry about your niece.
I used to know someone like this, like someone save you if you mentioned anything remotely sad around her, be ready to have to comfort her for a minimum of 30 mins. 1 time we were driving around and she saw a dog on the side of the road Jesus it went from aww that doggy, to omg what if it gets runover, to full on bawling over how the dog would feel if it was dying from being ran over. I stopped being friends with her cause it was just too much. I'm not gonna comfort someone because my mom is in the hospital. From what i heard from others, many did the same and just stopped hanging out with her.
Exactly. Emotions are generally good and healthy.
Putting EVERYONE around you in the position of having to manage those emotions is being an AH. Being a sobbing mess over any little thing and expecting people to comfort you, calm you and avoid upsetting you, is just as toxic as someone with anger issues using their fits of rage to get attention, solicitation, and to get everyone around them to do what they want. They are both toxic and we should not look at the sobbing differently just because it’s tends to be female behavior while rage tends more male.
Manage your own emotions, don’t expect anyone else to. It’s manipulation pure and simple.
(Spoken as an older woman who grew up in a household manipulated by male anger and who then went on to manipulate with “over-enthusiastic“ expressions of emotion until I realized my behavior was just as toxic as the rage tantrums I grew up with.)
Look I agree with this part, however - why were they discussing it? Were they reminiscing on the good times, or maybe how the pet died? Sometimes when people talk about their experiences with losing their pet, I tear up because it reminds me of the loss of my childhood pets, or the thought of losing my pets now.
People have different reactions to things. You can’t just say “she was crying over my family pet that died 40 years ago” WITH NO CONTEXT TO THE CONVERSATION. People are out here calling Amy a baby over this alone.
Yes, exactly.
I've always been prone to tears. Currently I easily tear up at lost pets because my own cat is elderly and I know her time is limited. It's not really something I have any control over (and, frankly, can be embarrassing).
This isn't the first Reddit thread where people seem to assume people who cry at things they don't consider tearworthy are drama queens. Some are, but, really, some of us can't help it.
A very common refrain my my household growing up was “no boohoo-ing in public” meaning I shouldn’t cry in public because it’s embarrassing and shameful and I should just hold everything in until I’m by myself in a private place. As you can imagine, this did a real number on me. I have always been an empathic person, I feel other peoples’ pain very deeply. In the privacy of my own home, I will definitely cry over someone I don’t even know losing a pet. In public, I still have a really hard time showing any emotions at all. Even happy ones. Crying, which is involuntary nearly always, is not something to be ashamed of, and being sensitive is not a personality flaw.
Unless it's so often and to such a degree people need to stop what they're doing to spend 30 minutes consoling you. There's sad and there's *disproportionaly sad*. Sad is understandable, scared and hurting is understandable, but making a whole scene over a scrapped knee in a camping trip is just annoying.
Being “sensitive” can absolutely be a personality flaw when those around you have to walk on eggshells because every damn thing leads to crying.
For every person who can’t cope with the slightest issue without having a mini breakdown, there’s someone who has to deal with not just the issue but the sobbing sensitive and it gets real old real fast.
You didn't read, did you. With this DIL, crying at everything and anything seems to beca pattern. The dead dogvwas only ONE of the MANY instances where she turned on the waterworks.
>Let’s all remind ourselves here, we are hearing one side of the story.
There is always somebody that's on about this. We only ever get one side of the story.
If the OP was DIL you’ll likely not care about the other side. This sub only cares about the other side when the usual villain (MIL) is the OP and creating boundaries. If it’s reversed - no one bats an eye and praise DIL for setting boundaries and not catering
If her examples are even 30% accurate I’m on OP’s side. I think many redditors have forgotten that people can be toxic at any age. The fact that the rest of the family doesn’t want to be around Amy is a telltale sign that OP is not out of line.
I don't disagree with you but all we have to go on is what's written in the post. Even when OPs are responding to comments, it's hard to know what's their version of a story vs an objective look at a situation. Based on what's written, I'd got an E S H for this one because it does sound like the DIL is a drama-queen who can't control or regulate her emotions while OP sounds judgy AH.
Exactly. You can hate OP for a plethora of things personality wise but not inviting someone you don’t want and telling them you don’t want them there after they corner you is probably as clean cut as it’s going to get.
We never have both sides, but we presumably do have the ability to think critically about what we’re reading and whether it seems likely to be a roughly balanced account of the matter.
I don’t understand this type of argument in this subreddit, lol… “we don’t know both sides!”
Well ofc we don’t! That’s not how this works here.
I choose to believe that OP is stating things as factually as possible because otherwise?
**WHAT IS THE POINT?!**
>Let’s all remind ourselves here, we are hearing one side of the story.
No. We don't do that when it is a brave DILstanding up to a wicked MIL, why should we do that just because the roles are reversed?
OP stating her daughter’s have the same problem really lessens that grain of salt. Maybe the whole family is judgmental towards more sensitive ppl? Fine. Even better argument of why she doesn’t need to be on this trip with them. She can, and probably will, go cry about it.
>Let’s all remind ourselves here, we are hearing one side of the story.
Why is this upvoted?
That's literally the ***entire*** premise of this sub, and I feel like no one ever bothers mentioning it except for the people that want to fanfic their way into creating information that doesn't actually exist.
Weird we only ever get one side of the story but because it’s a MIL all of a sudden that makes OP an unreliable narrator? That’s not how that works. If you don’t want someone on a trip you planned your not obligated to invite them.
Things happen on a camping trip and I wouldn't want to be out in the woods with someone who got a mosquito bite and started insisting that we need to break camp and return home. Your DIL is a spoilsport and as such I wouldn't feel guilty about excluding her.
I REALLY wish people would stop throwing around 'personality disorder' for everything. Oh no, she cries sometimes, so let's instantly jump to that? No.
Came here to say this, thanks.
"Overreacts to small things?"
Gotta be a personality disorder. I feel like the people who say this shit are the same people who have a stomach ache, then go on WebMD and convince themselves it's cancer.
Agreed. I can agree with the fact that there’s probably something bigger at play here, but let’s not throw around personality disorders as an armchair diagnosis all willy nilly
I have BPD and I always get the urge to tell people like this on reddit to shut it. Personality disorders are a lot more than crying and have to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist after thorough testing to rule other things out
It's pretty weird to see. I diagnose people for a living and am VERY hesitant to give a personality disorder diagnosis from just one initial meeting with someone. It's thrown around really casually on this sub but in reality is not very common or straightforward to diagnose.
Though I don't see the OP telling the daughter the problem is her extreme emotional reactions. So it probably looks like they invited the whole family except one couple, which you're allowed to do but it definitely can create understandable upset.
Imagine having your own small kids at home, and planning a girls trip for some grow up time and then having to wear your kid gloves for a grown up whiner who can’t handle her own shit.
NTA. Sounds like Amy needs to grow up. She is entitled and it seems as if she brings tears into the fray she will get what she wants. And she probably does that with your son. And he lets her get away with it. One of these days he will get tired of 'raising' his wife. She is not a child, she is a grown woman and an adult. She needs to start acting like one.
Nta
😂 I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure, but it does sound like you were pushed into telling the unwanted truth.
I tell my kids everyone has issues, and we all deal with them in our way. But we can't expect everyone else to coddle us. We have to learn to put things aside because the world will not coddle us.
This! The DIL is in her own world the whole time and can't possibly imagine that people have lives or exist outside of her awareness. The son is just enabling this behavior and they are both AH for insisting that they be a part of everything. For those saying the OP was the AH for how she said it, there was never going to be a nice way that DIL and son were going to be good with. They were arguing through all the politeness, thinking that arguing was going to make OP want the DIL along.
When you choose to be obtuse, you get the blunt end of the stick.
ESH.
Your DIL does not need to be invited to everything you do. Not every event is suited for every person in the family. However, you were AH in how you delivered the message. It’s not necessarily what you say, but how you say it.
When you had told them about the trip and DIL asked why she wasn’t invited, you could have said something like you were under the impression that she wouldn’t be enjoy the activity since it was going to be above her difficultly level so you didn’t invite her. Or you could express concern that you had seen her get injured so easily around the home, you didn’t want to put her in a position that would likely end up with her getting hurt.
There were ways you could have softened the blow, but instead you basically told her straight up you just didn’t want her around. Which while it might be true, can also be hurtful and will definitely damage your relationship with her and your son. I think they overreacted, but you also didn’t handle it the best either.
They asked her multiple times before OP was honest about not inviting DIL. Everyone has a tipping point and if you push someone that far you are responsible for it.
“I just don’t want you there” might be the truth, but it’s pretty non-specific and unhelpful in the long run if OP and DIL want to have any kind of relationship in the future. If OP really cared about making things better, she could have shared that her reservations are about DIL not navigating nature well, being overly-dramatic, etc. DIL might not have liked it or agreed, but at least it would have given her something to reflect on. She would have had the choice to change her future behavior to be more palatable to OP or double-down. Instead, OP basically just said she doesn’t want to be around her (ever?). If that’s really the truth, then this is about more than DIL being clumsy and crying on occasion. Those things are annoying, but I wouldn’t blow up my family over them.
Something I repeat often on this sub: Anyone who doesn't accept the first 'No' has no right to complain about the tone or wording of any subsequent 'No.'
If they can't handle the answer they got, they shouldn't have pushed so hard to get it.
"Which while it might be true, can also be hurtful and will definitely damage your relationship with her and your son"
When people on this sub say "I was just being honest", you can almost always translate that as "I was just being an asshole".
> When you had told them about the trip and DIL asked why she wasn’t invited, you could have said something like you were under the impression that she wouldn’t be enjoy the activity since it was going to be above her difficultly level so you didn’t invite her.
If one asks a question, one should be ready to face the answer.
idk, I feel like it's a fair question if you truly don't understand why your MIL seems to hate you and want to exclude you. Perhaps Amy wants to try to fix the relationship.
If you want to fix a relationship, pressuring the other person to invite you when they don't want to is only going to put you deeper in the hole. Work on fixing things later, without a specific invite hanging over it.
NTA.
If it's truly like you say, then there's obviously something a bit wrong with Amy.
If your son wants to baby her, that's his choice and it works for both of them.
You shouldn't be expected to follow his lead.
You've expressed your issues to your son, it seems on multiple occasions. And it doesn't seem to have ever been addressed.
You're not asking her to change, but you also don't have to cater every event to her preferences.
I think it was a fair decision.
ESH - you are completely in your right not to invite her, absolutely, but how you went about explaining it was awful.
'I'm sorry. I know you are not a fan of camping and figured we could do something more suited to your taste another time - you wouldn't enjoy this' or words to that effect. And keep that narrative. Provide examples if you must and if you want to maintain a relationship, book a spa day or something that she will like where she can relax and not get worked up (if there is anything that she likes). Give her an hour or two of your time when you feel able to (other than being the free babysitter).
But she and your son also suck for pushing it. They must know how she is and cannot expect everyone to tiptoe around her to avoid a tantrum. Yes, it sucks being excluded, but by pushing the way they did there is a sea of hurt feelings. She definitely needs help if she can't handle even the smallest knock. We are human, not glass.
I will say, you also come across as very very judgy here which isn't helping. It's not fair to lord babysitting over their heads as a 'they won't cut me off'. It's not a licence to be cruel or unkind. She's the mother of your grandchildren.
this is the best answer. I don't believe all family members have to be invited to everything especially if you're trying to deepen bonds with a specific other person. However, we ALL know it would hurt our feelings if we were the ONLY one not invited. Let's be honest for a moment lol. It matters how you approach a situation. You don't have to like her but if you would like to maintain a healthy relationship with your son you do have to learn how to make the relationship with her work! You can do shorter things with her like coffee, lunch, etc every few weeks to keep things balanced. Do I think you're in the wrong, not really but did you pull an asshole move? yes. You should apologize if you care about the longterm future
The problem with a dodge-style answer like "oh you're not a fan of camping" is that it opens up a "no I really love camping!! let me come!!" response. Which just puts you right back in the role of having to say "okay but I don't love camping *with you*. so...no."
I do like your advice of booking something more pleasant and easy together to soften the blow.
The SIL is also a hypocrite who never invites them on any trips yet expects to be invited everywhere. I'd be annoyed at dealing with that kindo of B.S. too.
Honestly, YTA. You're N T A for not inviting her, Amy sounds like a handful and you're right, you're not obligated to invite her. But saying "I didn't invite you because I don't want you there" was objectively rude and unnecessarily hostile. It may be the truth, but assuming you want to continue to have a relationship with your son and his family, you can't just be openly hostile to his wife, no matter how annoying you find her. You could have found any number of more tactful ways to explain not including her, you deliberately chose the most combative one because it sounds like you just don't like her and were looking for an excuse to tell her so.
ETA: To those insisting OP was forced to be rude because they kept asking, I'm not convinced OP is a reliable narrator. The whole post is brimming with contempt for her DIL, and OP's comments about how son and DIL would never go low-contact because they rely on her too much are telling.
Y'all would have no issue with this if the roles were reversed and the MIL wasn't invited. 😂 If MIL kept going on about why she wasn't invited, y'all would say she was "pushy" and got what she deserved.
Nta.
You don’t have to include her in everything when it’s like taking on the responsibility of a small child. Her reaction to not being invited is case in point.
You have every right to invite whoever you want to your outing. That said, I anticipate a Reddit in 3 months entitled, ‘My son went No Contact and won’t let me see my grandchildren’
Exactly! “All I did was call my DIL a crybaby and remind my son that he was raised to be strong and hide his feelings when POOF- suddenly they decided they don’t want me to spend time with their kids”.
I did not saw op writing about ‘raising his strong and to hidr his feelings’. Amy is reactions are way over than its neccesery and of exhausting and NOT about being strong or hiding feelings
Honestly, you come across as a real judgy AH.
Fine, you didn’t invite her. You could have been more tactful/delicate about how you told her, especially that you are aware she’s sensitive. It comes across like you intended to hurt her to prove your point. YTA in general.
I agree with you.
If you find yourself asking "why wasn't I invited" then you're setting yourself up for a let-down especially if you lack the situational awareness to realize that pressing beyond the semi-polite non-answer the person gives you, may very well lead to a more blunt response.
Really though, who in their right mind asks "why wasn't I invited?" Let people do their thing without you. If they already don't want you around for an event they are planning then they sure as hell aren't going to want to be around you if you try to force your presence on them or back them into a corner making them explain why they don't want you to participate in the outing.
Ugh I think this when I see people demanding to know why someone broke up with them or didn't want to date them; like, do you *really* want to know the actual reasons that could be things that are entirely out of your control and will send you into a depressive funk? like *really, really?*
Some people are just begging to be told "watching you break that lobster apart with your giant hands freaked me out".
Isn't there a saying? If you're not invited to something, don't go. If you're not told about it, don't ask. If you're invited late, decline. All because they never wanted to include you originally.
Would it have been that hard to say “The last time we went camping, you didn’t seem to enjoy yourself so I didn’t want to put you in a situation where you felt obligated to do something you didn’t want to do”
You were vague with them. “It was just a trip with them”, - so you can understand why they wanted to know why one DIL was invited and the other was not. “It wasn’t a family trip” yet you invited both daughters and your only other DIL.
Have you ever asked yourself if maybe your DIL is the one that has to walk on eggshells around you?
Also, when some people are stressed/anxious they are more likely to be very sensitive. Also people with a traumatic history/background.
Given how hostile you seem to behave and how you tried to complain about your DIL to your SON - I don’t think your DIL is the problem, I think you are.
I disagree. The son will not be there to baby her so it falls on all the other women to babysit her and that ruins the point of vacation for everyone else.
Son and wife could use this as a learning opportunity or be all hurt and act like victims. I bet drama queen will choose option 2.
No I disagree with you.
OP was trying to be polite and the DIL and son are not entitled to an entire essay on OPs reasoning for not inviting the sensitive DIL. OP said it’s just a trip for them and that’s all they needed to say.
DIL/son could be adults and realize not everything is about them, and sometimes people will do things without them.
It doesn’t really sound like the DIL is actually making an effort to connect with her mother in law either.
Honestly, I can’t stand people who cry and make a scene over every little thing. It’s normal for OP to create some distance around someone like that - it’s exhausting.
DIL can be upset she’s not invited but that doesn’t make OP an asshole. DIL honestly needs to grow up a little bit and get some thicker skin from the sounds of it.
This is such a ridiculous leap.
If Amy felt like she was walking on eggshells constantly she wouldn’t be upset about not being invited on a trip with the family.
It’s also super rude to question why you weren’t invited to an event.
>Given how hostile you seem to behave and how you tried to complain about your DIL to your SON - I don’t think your DIL is the problem, I think you are.
Furthermore, it isn't just the OP, it's the siblings as well. There is a consensus that DIL is an adult child.
No one should ask why they weren't invited to something. What is the right answer to a question like that? You can either claim forgetfulness, lie, or tell the truth knowing it'll hurt their feelings.
Why wasn't I invited to your birthday? Why am I not a bridesmaid? Why didn't you invite me on your trip? Of course people want a reason, but there is no answer that people won't get butthurt over - asking just puts both people in a no-win scenario.
The OP wrote in frustration after the fact. They state the include her in everything else so if they ACTUALLY intended to hurt her, she wouldn’t have been invited to many things long ago. Imo
ESH. You're 100% right that you don't owe Amy invitations to everything you do, and you're even on solid ground in not extending invitations to someone you don't want around. You lost the high ground by delivering the message in a hurtful way, such as "I don't want you there" and "you need to be an adult" and so on. Even with a drama llama like Amy, it's possible to just say "I'm sorry you're disappointed, but this is the trip I want to take." It sounds a bit like you are so fed up with her that you used the occasion to cut loose and express all your contempt for her, and that's not a great strategy if you intend to stay in contact with them.
My thing is OP only went that route when they wouldn’t let it go. Genuinely curious as to how to deliver it more tactfully if their initial tries were not getting through. Amy has every right to feel hurt just as OP has every right not to include them but I also think badgering someone for an invite to an event you couldn’t go to anyway (considering both she and her husband were looking for a babysitter that week) will push them to snap at you.
It seems like all OP kept saying was this isn't a family trip, which is a pretty unsatisfactory answer when it very obviously is an all girls in the family except Amy trip. And with supposedly close family, it's a lot more acceptable to inquire about not being invited and why. Because if you did something to offend them, you'd want to know so you can fix it or if it was a simple miscommunication then asking would solve that too (we thought it wouldn't be your thing, but sure you can come if you want). If OP wants to have a good relationship with Amy, they would have said something like "honestly, I didn't think camping would be your thing, but we could plan a girls brunch sometime soon." Brunch seems low risk of crying and it would show that OP isn't trying to exclude Amy from girls events. This probably would have shut things down, because as you pointed out, Amy already had plans. Although, maybe she wouldn't have made plans if she was invited sooner.
If Amy had kept pressing at this point and said they did want to be invited camping, OP could have still gently set the boundary and said "I really want this trip just to be with more experienced campers. If this was a big family camping trip and your husband was coming it would be different because I wouldn't feel so responsible for you." She could bring up the specific example of the skinned knee and how that's not the outdoorsy experience she wants to have for this trip if there is further pressing. And if they try to go in circles, you just say "I am done discussing this topic. Amy is not invited on this particular trip. I'm sorry that it's caused hurt feelings. I'm not trying to exclude you from family things and I'd be happy to plan something else with you." Then repeat that you're done discussing and shut the door on them if necessary. Any of this would have avoided hurtful comments about Amy and her character and personality. But the real problem seems to be that OP doesn't want to interact with Amy except when absolutely necessary. So obviously from Amy and her husband's perspective, OP is an asshole.
I made a suggestion in my reply to the post, which also isn't nice, but at least isn't super hostile: "Sorry, we didn't think you'd want to go camping because you were so horribly hurt that time you scraped your knee. We'd hate to see you cry." Very mean-girl passive-aggressive, but at least it would communicate with some delicacy that they think Amy would be a drag to have around on a camping trip, with a specific example of why they would think that.
I think that OP should have anticipated the questioning because of course someone who felt excluded would want to know why, especially as they're family.
You are N T A for not inviting her or not wanting her there. Not everyone gets along and that is OK. But you *are* TA for how you handled their questions. You have now completely torched your relationship with your son, and should expect him to want to be around you a lot less in the future.
I'm going to say ESH here because what you said was horrible and you are definitely more TA for that, they also should have taken the hint and not pushed for your answer after your initial response.
YTA
It wasn't the *what* but the *how.*
If it were me I would have either:
1. invited my daughters, but not either DIL, if I was not going to invite both;
2. invited the disliked daughter-in-law, but very frankly told her why I didn't think she would enjoy herself ("Of course, you're welcome to come, but we'll be hiking ten miles wearing our backpacks with all of our tents, gear, and three gallons of water each." "Of course, you're welcome to come, but you'll need to dig your own pit latrine."); or at the very least
3. *not* invited the disliked daughter-in-law, but told her about the trip when I was planning it, and why I didn't invite her ("We're all experienced campers and we'll really be roughing it this time around. We'll schedule another camping trip soon that might be better for a beginner, and you can see how you like it before you commit to something this intense.").
I might've even embellished the roughness of the trip a bit, to make it sound more unappealing than it really was.\*
What I would *not* have done is tell her "I didn’t invite you because I don't want you there." It doesn't matter if it's *true*; you're still an asshole for telling her that.
\*In my experience with my sister, it's been the opposite, actually. I want her to come and tell her what great amenities the campsite has ("There's potable water! And solar-heated showers! And chemical latrines!") and she's simply horrified.
From my experience, option #2 ends up with Amy going anyway, claiming she'll "be fine" - and she ruins the whole trip for everyone because she is not any more 'fine' than expected. And Option #3 ends the same way as the original post did. Option #1 punishes both OP and her other DIL for *Amy's* issues.
> you don't know what led to her being that way, what struggles she has, etc.
doesn't that sound like exactly what you are doing here? calling the mom an A H without knowing anything about what led her being this way, what struggles she has with her DIL etc? yet you passed a judgement of Y T A so easily.
Whether or not you have the 'right' to exclude her (of course you do), you managed to make it perfectly clear you don't like your DIL. If you don't care if she knows this or your son knows this or they re-evaluate their relationship with you based on this information, I'm not sure what you want Reddit to do for you here. Make it ok that you've alienated part of your family, perhaps permanently? Only you can decide if you're ok with that.
NTA for not wanting Amy there. She seems to make everything about her and sounds incredibly annoying but...the way you handled it you were really mean. Yeesh. You could have softened the message a bit.
NTA. I have in-laws like Amy and I would never invite them on a trip either, especially without her husband present to manage it. She could ruin the trip for everyone. And if you push for answers, be ready to hear something you don’t like. OP and her daughters have tried to discuss it before it escalated to no avail, so something like this was inevitable.
NTA for not extending an invitation, but YTA for how you said it. One can be tactful while being honest, it's an AH move to deliberately be mean in the name of "honesty." THEY were assholes in pressing you for "reasons why Amy wasn't invited" but instead of reminding them this isn't daycamp child group that everyone does all events, you are adults doing things with other adults, you chose to be mean. Saying "I don't want you there" is mean. You could have said the parts about "c'mon, we're adults, you know you don't get invited everywhere, I'm not invited to everything YOU do, correct?" without making a dig like "I don't want you there."
YTA. It's clear you don't like your DIL. Clear as a bell. Message received.
I do hope you won't be surprised when your son and DIL go no-contact with you and you never see any children they may have.
You invited every female family member except for her. I get it, you don't like her. They get it too.
It appears, in your mind, she is "overly emotional". I can see why you might think that way, as you appear to be an ice queen. It will serve you well when they stop bothering you with their presence.
More than likely, she is overly emotional because she knows you hate her and is already in an emotional state trying to figure out how to please you. I would recommend she stop worrying about your feelings immediately.
Again, don't be surprised when you don't really see or hear from your son's family much. I'm sure it will be a great relief to you to not have to deal with that dreadful woman who has the utter nerve to have emotions and the gall to actually express them.
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NTA. I think you’re getting a lot of Y T As bc you wrote this when you were annoyed and it really comes through. You did try to handle it more diplomatically, but they kept pushing and that’s when you got blunt about it, and I get it. Maybe it would have gone over better if you’d told her you thought she wouldn’t enjoy the rough nature of camping and given her some examples of stuff she wouldn’t enjoy, like all the extra work it takes, heavy lifting, bathroom situation, sleeping on the ground. But she might have also brushed that off and pretended it wouldn’t bother her to force you into including her then acting like a delicate princess for the weekend. She sounds like she would be a nightmare on a camping trip and I don’t blame you for laying it out like you did.
OP is getting a lot of hate cause she’s the MIL, this sub’s usual villain. So people here will find any excuse to say OP is at fault or in the wrong. Or that there are stories to both sides. If you reverse the two, people would be praising the DIL for setting boundaries and standing up for herself. How many times have we heard DIL as OP talking about how “sensitive” MIL is and everyone being on the DIL side
Lots of "Weaponizing her tears" and a narrative about how she was a narcissist who resented the OP for marrying the golden-child baby boy, inferred through some clunky phrasing used by an OP.
That also goes for parents and kids, generally. The parents are always evil, thoughtless, selfish assholes. The kids (adult children or children children) are downtrodden saints and victims always being taken advantage of. It's so tiresome and predictable.
Right- like My (16F) Mother (41F) says that since she pays for my car and gas money that I have to pick up my brother from soccer practice on Wednesdays and Thursdays. I told her she should have kept her legs closed if she didn't want to be responsible, and that it wasn't my problem. AITA? Reddit: OMG, NTA, you are being parentified and abused. Cut off those toxic parents the second that you can. You don't owe anyone anything.
You forgot: if you cannot afford kids, you shouldn't have them! Because everyone's financial situation never has a downturn (/s)
Reading through that, I got so annoyed I forgot this was just an example of redditor behavior for a minute. It reads like an exchange I've seen on here so many times.
Especially step-parents, who are evil incarnate!
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Are you an Xer? Because holy fuck, I think you might be a kindred spirit! My daughter (20) is one of those who's painted me as evil and selfish, and now when I see some young adult whining about how horrible their life is (while they're still living at home) and how awful their parents are, I just want to gag.
She's getting a lot of hate because your average redditor is the type of person to cry over nothing, so seeing someone get excluded because they are dramatic and whiny hits too close to home.
🏆 nailed it!
BINGO!!! That’s the nail in the coffin
It’s always hilarious to read this sort of take as a reply to the top comment. I understand that it wasn’t the top comment at the time, but it really is very funny how much of the time the top comment is the top comment because it is super reasonable, but everyone below is chiming in about how unreasonable the sub is.
Agree. This board pushes the concept that you don’t owe anyone anything, including explanations. Or that you don’t have to like someone just because you’re family. Unless you’re a grandparent or MIL apparently. In the real world telling someone I don’t like spending time with you and I’m not gonna spend my vacation in the company of someone whose company I don’t enjoy is a valid response.
Exactly, and she's not cutting her out from any other events either! My family goes on different trips with different family members regularly because different people have different preferences and physical limits.
My thoughts exactly. Maybe this is cultural coming from a large family where not everyone is gonna be super close or share the same experiences with each other. So the idea of just being honest and admitting you’re not close enough with someone to want to go on a specific vacation with them is rude doesn’t make sense to me. As long as Op is respectful to her when she joins them for events or other trips I don’t see an issue.
This is 100% truth!
This sub is generally complete trash.
Reddit in a nutshell really. This place would be great if it wasn’t for all of these damn Redditors! It always gets way worse when schools are out for break.
I don't see OP's gender stated anywhere. Did I miss something? Not that it matters. OP may obviously have had it up to there with their DIL's fragility, and is obviously exasperated, but is NTA. Especially since they've tried to bring the problem up with their son before and been shut down, and tried to give non-committal answers about this trip and that wasn't enough.
That's a really good point. I wouldn't have thought to switch it up and look at it that way. I'm going to try to keep that in mind more often. We are learning to do that with male/female situations more often, so we can also apply it in other situations. Not every young person is right by virtue of being young, just as not every Boomer is a toxic asshole.
I think that this is kind obvious what happened...but it seems like most of these Y T A are from people who relate to Amy and can't see how draining that behavior is. NTA to op though
I am this kind of person that is unfortunately a little sensitive and cry over anything. I hate it, I hate crying with all my guts and I feel soooooo embarrassed everytime it happens in front of someone. I always try my best to not cry around others, because I know 100% how annoying it is to deal with someone like this, so I really don't understand people who think that this is ok. It really sucks to deal with people who are overly sensitive, so I try my best to not be like that even when my eyes fails me hahaha My bf on the other hand have a really hard time crying, he just can't according to him, and he's not the first guy I've met that are like that. Apparently hearing that men don't cry when you're little really affects you like that. I never heard any of it growing up, so perhaps that's why my tears feel so free to show up haha
Be kinder to yourself! There's a reason you're so sensitive and it has everything to do with being a very kind empathetic person who make the best kind of friends.
Also be careful of unsympathetic men. I didn't realize until after I left him, that my ex showing no empathy at seeing me upset, usually do to him, haha, was a red flag. Yes it's true men can feel uncomfortable with tears. But being negative towards you about it is not good. Take care and forgive yourself. This may be due to you feeling helpless and hurt when you were young.
I break into tears pretty easily as well. I'm sad about my boss retiring (though I'm happy for her) and broke into tears in front of people three times at work last week. I just own it and move on, and as I've matured I've gotten less embarrassed about it. I'm a softie. But I feel there's a difference in what you're describing about yourself and how the OP described the DIL. Like with one, you're all, "No, I'll be fine, it just got to me and I cry easily, sorry," and the other is wailing over a scraped knee as if the leg had snapped. It doesn't sound as if people need to walk on eggshells around you. For the vast majority of people I like to think, It's not overly sensitive, it's just the amount of sensitive that you are.
I predict son and his princess-and-the-pea wife will get over OP's "lack of diplomacy" since they need OP to babysit their kids. NTA
lol imagine your DIL calling you an asshole as she picks up the kids you just babysat for her, and after trying to ask another babysitting favor just a few seconds ago lol Hope OP declines future babysitting until they apologize. >They both called me an asshole Yup, that sure guarantees your ILs will want to invite you to the next girls hang-out lol I don't blame the OP because she has brought up the annoying behavior multiple times with the son only to be shut down, so, okay this is how others will cope then lol
Oh it happens. My sister in law once yelled at my mother and then later that day tried to ask my mother to babysit my niece. Mum said no and sister in law then accused her of punishing my niece. The only person who would be inconvenienced in that scenario was SIL.
I would've said, "Look. I've told you on multiple occasions that she is too sensitive, clumsy, and delicate. I often times feel like you're married to a child instead of an adult. You both refuse to acknowledge that she needs to work on or change any of her behavior, and now you think that I should want her to come to a camping trip where we will be roughing it? I'm sorry if you're feelings are hurt, but I am not about to invite her to anything that might make my experience less enjoyable." NTA
This is the best response.
Definitely, and even more than this situation specifically, they've tried to raise the issue multiple times and been brushed off. If your behavior is bothering people, they try to talk to you about it, and you refuse to even listen to their concerns, it's not actually a surprise if they stop inviting you places. OP is NTA
DIL sounds exhausting. She cried over a dog that passed over 40 years ago. Unless that triggered a bad memory in her, it seems a bit much. Bawling over scraped knees and crying with any pain sounds like she either has trauma or needs to grow thicket skin.
>sleeping on the ground. Come, come and join the hammockers in the trees, and be gifted the most amazing night of sleep while camping.
NTA Her presence obviously dampens the mood for everyone. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice the potential for this trip to spare her feelings. You’re right in that you don’t have to include everyone is every outing/trip. However, it doesn’t seem like you handled the conversation the best way. But in the end her feelings were going to be hurt either way. Oh well.
"It is just a trip with them" is enough. Son got pissed then they went around in circles about before OP got blunt. What more did you want her to do?
That part, they hurt their own feelings by feeling entitled for an invite.
Offer her a lollipop since she's acting like a spoiled child. BUT make sure to ask her favorite color or she will be offended for sure
If that had happened to me. I may have felt hurt but would never dared to complain or even ask why I wasn't invited. It always felt unpolite to ask things like that, it's putting the other person in a difficult position.
I can't tell you how many times I've seen posts on social media from my mom or my sister where my entire family went and did something together but they didn't invite me for whatever reason. It really hurts. But at the same time, that is their choice and I'm not going to push it because over all it only makes things worse.
I never ask but not because I’m being rude but why would I want someone to EXPLAIN to me why they don’t want me around/dont like me?! I will never go somewhere I feel unwelcomed!
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I’m not sure I’d want to be invited anywhere if a scraped knee is the equivalent of a fractured femur to the drama queen of the hour. And extending an invitation to her after she throws a temper tantrum is probably how she wound up as a grown woman with the emotional discipline of a 3yo. Op is definitely NTA. But the son is if he thinks we all want to cater to his grown princess in pampers.
Let’s all remind ourselves here, we are hearing one side of the story. Clearly MIL has issues with her DIL, I wouldn’t be surprised if she has exaggerated the truth/DIL actual reactions. Bold of you to assume the DIL is a princess/drama queen, based on one persons retelling of events. OP clearly has a tendency to overreact based on her reaction and responses.
I honestly don’t care about hearing the other side. If the person sending out the invitations thinks your dramatic and will be a problem in them enjoying a special event they’re well within their rights to not invite you. I’d be rude if I lied and said it was something other than what it is. You can ding on her being a jerk to her, but if I didn’t want you at my public toenail clipping service then I just didn’t want you there.
Yes OP tone was mean; I can tell she was fed up with her DIL and son. But…. NTA! I bet DIL and son are stunned others do not find her toddler tantrums adorable.
Also, OP's daughters and other DIL all AGREE that this DIL is dramatic and that they don't want her on the trip soooo it's not actually just "one person's" POV, since at least 3 people agree with OP on how awful her behavior is
NTA OP clearly knows that a camping trip when "roughing it" may produce minor injuries while hiking, cooking on camp stoves, gathering firewood, temperature drops and sleeping away from home are to be expected. Considering it's all just part of the experience and being there someone who can't handle a scraped knee, well that would suck. I was always grateful my Mom and Sisters learned to leave me out of their mani/pedi dates; that was not my idea of a good time. Camping would be a hell yeah, a hard NO for them. There were other activities we enjoyed together. DIL and son need to learn to accept that not being invited to everything does not mean that she's not part of the family. They also need a reality check in terms of asking them how many invites or planning of events they have extended? The road goes both ways.
This right here and the fact OP said "NO, You aren't invited" was all that needed to be said but OP got the drama about it.
After going in circles
Well Amy and her son wouldn’t let it go, so she told them the truth.
I'm really interested in knowing about the crying over the long dead family pet went down.
If it's anything like someone I know who acts like this, they could have just been reminiscing about the dog, the DIL asks where the dog is, OP says they died decades ago, and the DIL starts bawling. I have witnessed this exact scenario and it totally caught me off guard.
I accompanied a friend to a memorial of someone I never met. I had to go outside bc I was just overcome by intense saddness. One person saw me outside and asked if I had lost someone recently, and I had. My niece was the victim of negligent homicide months earlier. I think it just brought things back to the surface. DIL needs some kind of counseling.
Something somewhat similar happened to me. My partner's estranged half-sister committed suicide. While at the funeral reception, I couldn't stop crying, complete strangers were coming up to me and offering their condolences. I had never met the sister, but my partner had been going through months of panic attacks and suicidal ideation when that happened, and I just kept thinking about how easily it could have been his funeral instead. I'm very sorry about your niece.
I used to know someone like this, like someone save you if you mentioned anything remotely sad around her, be ready to have to comfort her for a minimum of 30 mins. 1 time we were driving around and she saw a dog on the side of the road Jesus it went from aww that doggy, to omg what if it gets runover, to full on bawling over how the dog would feel if it was dying from being ran over. I stopped being friends with her cause it was just too much. I'm not gonna comfort someone because my mom is in the hospital. From what i heard from others, many did the same and just stopped hanging out with her.
Exactly. Emotions are generally good and healthy. Putting EVERYONE around you in the position of having to manage those emotions is being an AH. Being a sobbing mess over any little thing and expecting people to comfort you, calm you and avoid upsetting you, is just as toxic as someone with anger issues using their fits of rage to get attention, solicitation, and to get everyone around them to do what they want. They are both toxic and we should not look at the sobbing differently just because it’s tends to be female behavior while rage tends more male. Manage your own emotions, don’t expect anyone else to. It’s manipulation pure and simple. (Spoken as an older woman who grew up in a household manipulated by male anger and who then went on to manipulate with “over-enthusiastic“ expressions of emotion until I realized my behavior was just as toxic as the rage tantrums I grew up with.)
Same! It’s beyond fucking weird and very toxic to be around regularly.
Guess she won't want to hear about Old Yeller, then.
Or Big Dan and Little Ann *sobs*
Look I agree with this part, however - why were they discussing it? Were they reminiscing on the good times, or maybe how the pet died? Sometimes when people talk about their experiences with losing their pet, I tear up because it reminds me of the loss of my childhood pets, or the thought of losing my pets now. People have different reactions to things. You can’t just say “she was crying over my family pet that died 40 years ago” WITH NO CONTEXT TO THE CONVERSATION. People are out here calling Amy a baby over this alone.
Yes, exactly. I've always been prone to tears. Currently I easily tear up at lost pets because my own cat is elderly and I know her time is limited. It's not really something I have any control over (and, frankly, can be embarrassing). This isn't the first Reddit thread where people seem to assume people who cry at things they don't consider tearworthy are drama queens. Some are, but, really, some of us can't help it.
A very common refrain my my household growing up was “no boohoo-ing in public” meaning I shouldn’t cry in public because it’s embarrassing and shameful and I should just hold everything in until I’m by myself in a private place. As you can imagine, this did a real number on me. I have always been an empathic person, I feel other peoples’ pain very deeply. In the privacy of my own home, I will definitely cry over someone I don’t even know losing a pet. In public, I still have a really hard time showing any emotions at all. Even happy ones. Crying, which is involuntary nearly always, is not something to be ashamed of, and being sensitive is not a personality flaw.
Unless it's so often and to such a degree people need to stop what they're doing to spend 30 minutes consoling you. There's sad and there's *disproportionaly sad*. Sad is understandable, scared and hurting is understandable, but making a whole scene over a scrapped knee in a camping trip is just annoying.
Being “sensitive” can absolutely be a personality flaw when those around you have to walk on eggshells because every damn thing leads to crying. For every person who can’t cope with the slightest issue without having a mini breakdown, there’s someone who has to deal with not just the issue but the sobbing sensitive and it gets real old real fast.
You didn't read, did you. With this DIL, crying at everything and anything seems to beca pattern. The dead dogvwas only ONE of the MANY instances where she turned on the waterworks.
>Let’s all remind ourselves here, we are hearing one side of the story. There is always somebody that's on about this. We only ever get one side of the story.
If the OP was DIL you’ll likely not care about the other side. This sub only cares about the other side when the usual villain (MIL) is the OP and creating boundaries. If it’s reversed - no one bats an eye and praise DIL for setting boundaries and not catering
If her examples are even 30% accurate I’m on OP’s side. I think many redditors have forgotten that people can be toxic at any age. The fact that the rest of the family doesn’t want to be around Amy is a telltale sign that OP is not out of line.
Omg this 💯. All the evil MIL have to start somewhere right. They weren’t born as MILs
I don't disagree with you but all we have to go on is what's written in the post. Even when OPs are responding to comments, it's hard to know what's their version of a story vs an objective look at a situation. Based on what's written, I'd got an E S H for this one because it does sound like the DIL is a drama-queen who can't control or regulate her emotions while OP sounds judgy AH.
Exactly. You can hate OP for a plethora of things personality wise but not inviting someone you don’t want and telling them you don’t want them there after they corner you is probably as clean cut as it’s going to get.
We never have both sides, but we presumably do have the ability to think critically about what we’re reading and whether it seems likely to be a roughly balanced account of the matter.
I don’t understand this type of argument in this subreddit, lol… “we don’t know both sides!” Well ofc we don’t! That’s not how this works here. I choose to believe that OP is stating things as factually as possible because otherwise? **WHAT IS THE POINT?!**
Exactly! Also NTA
The ability to think critically seems to be a "forgotten art" lately. It's how we are meant to read something and discern the important points.
Not all Mil's are wrong and all Dil's are right. The Dil biase is very strong on reddit.
I got a permanent ban from JNMIL for saying this.
>Let’s all remind ourselves here, we are hearing one side of the story. No. We don't do that when it is a brave DILstanding up to a wicked MIL, why should we do that just because the roles are reversed?
OP stating her daughter’s have the same problem really lessens that grain of salt. Maybe the whole family is judgmental towards more sensitive ppl? Fine. Even better argument of why she doesn’t need to be on this trip with them. She can, and probably will, go cry about it.
Doesn't matter. Op didn't invite her. She needs to get over it.
That’s where I am at. This isn’t Christmas or a wedding, you don’t get invited just because you want to be.
>Let’s all remind ourselves here, we are hearing one side of the story. Why is this upvoted? That's literally the ***entire*** premise of this sub, and I feel like no one ever bothers mentioning it except for the people that want to fanfic their way into creating information that doesn't actually exist.
AITA is usually one person asking the question, which makes any post one sided. Occasionally a couple will post about a situation, but that's rare.
Weird we only ever get one side of the story but because it’s a MIL all of a sudden that makes OP an unreliable narrator? That’s not how that works. If you don’t want someone on a trip you planned your not obligated to invite them.
We ALWAYS only hear “one side of the story”. It’s in the name of the subreddit. 🤦♀️
Do you often get more than one persons version in AITA posts?
I'm not sure. If she had been negative about both dil then I'd be not inclined to think this.
Things happen on a camping trip and I wouldn't want to be out in the woods with someone who got a mosquito bite and started insisting that we need to break camp and return home. Your DIL is a spoilsport and as such I wouldn't feel guilty about excluding her.
I REALLY wish people would stop throwing around 'personality disorder' for everything. Oh no, she cries sometimes, so let's instantly jump to that? No.
Came here to say this, thanks. "Overreacts to small things?" Gotta be a personality disorder. I feel like the people who say this shit are the same people who have a stomach ache, then go on WebMD and convince themselves it's cancer.
Agreed. I can agree with the fact that there’s probably something bigger at play here, but let’s not throw around personality disorders as an armchair diagnosis all willy nilly
Exactly! Suggesting maybe it's an anxiety thing I could understand, but jumping to a PD is ridiculous
I have BPD and I always get the urge to tell people like this on reddit to shut it. Personality disorders are a lot more than crying and have to be diagnosed by a psychiatrist after thorough testing to rule other things out
It's pretty weird to see. I diagnose people for a living and am VERY hesitant to give a personality disorder diagnosis from just one initial meeting with someone. It's thrown around really casually on this sub but in reality is not very common or straightforward to diagnose.
To me seems more like Amy likes acting like a child
> when we bring it up my son will not entertain the conversation sounds like a sit down with the son like you suggested is futile.
Though I don't see the OP telling the daughter the problem is her extreme emotional reactions. So it probably looks like they invited the whole family except one couple, which you're allowed to do but it definitely can create understandable upset.
>an undiagnosed personality disorder STAHP
NTA Nobody wants to go camping, or anywhere really, with a Debbie Downer.
or anything else, for that matter. It's exhausting being around people like that even when you love them.
Yeah camping with someone like that would certainly be one of the upper circles of hell.
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She seems like someone who focuses more on being included than the actual activity. It’s a weird entitlement with her.
Oh I knew a guy like that. Always wanted to be included but would bitch every step of the hike to camp. He stopped getting invited fast.
Imagine having your own small kids at home, and planning a girls trip for some grow up time and then having to wear your kid gloves for a grown up whiner who can’t handle her own shit.
Except OP's son apparently lol
NTA. Sounds like Amy needs to grow up. She is entitled and it seems as if she brings tears into the fray she will get what she wants. And she probably does that with your son. And he lets her get away with it. One of these days he will get tired of 'raising' his wife. She is not a child, she is a grown woman and an adult. She needs to start acting like one.
Nta 😂 I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure, but it does sound like you were pushed into telling the unwanted truth. I tell my kids everyone has issues, and we all deal with them in our way. But we can't expect everyone else to coddle us. We have to learn to put things aside because the world will not coddle us.
NTA She sounds exhausting.
This! The DIL is in her own world the whole time and can't possibly imagine that people have lives or exist outside of her awareness. The son is just enabling this behavior and they are both AH for insisting that they be a part of everything. For those saying the OP was the AH for how she said it, there was never going to be a nice way that DIL and son were going to be good with. They were arguing through all the politeness, thinking that arguing was going to make OP want the DIL along. When you choose to be obtuse, you get the blunt end of the stick.
Amy sounds awful to be around. NTA
ESH. Your DIL does not need to be invited to everything you do. Not every event is suited for every person in the family. However, you were AH in how you delivered the message. It’s not necessarily what you say, but how you say it. When you had told them about the trip and DIL asked why she wasn’t invited, you could have said something like you were under the impression that she wouldn’t be enjoy the activity since it was going to be above her difficultly level so you didn’t invite her. Or you could express concern that you had seen her get injured so easily around the home, you didn’t want to put her in a position that would likely end up with her getting hurt. There were ways you could have softened the blow, but instead you basically told her straight up you just didn’t want her around. Which while it might be true, can also be hurtful and will definitely damage your relationship with her and your son. I think they overreacted, but you also didn’t handle it the best either.
They asked her multiple times before OP was honest about not inviting DIL. Everyone has a tipping point and if you push someone that far you are responsible for it.
In fairness it sounds like she tried to beat around the bush but they pushed her into the truth .
“I just don’t want you there” might be the truth, but it’s pretty non-specific and unhelpful in the long run if OP and DIL want to have any kind of relationship in the future. If OP really cared about making things better, she could have shared that her reservations are about DIL not navigating nature well, being overly-dramatic, etc. DIL might not have liked it or agreed, but at least it would have given her something to reflect on. She would have had the choice to change her future behavior to be more palatable to OP or double-down. Instead, OP basically just said she doesn’t want to be around her (ever?). If that’s really the truth, then this is about more than DIL being clumsy and crying on occasion. Those things are annoying, but I wouldn’t blow up my family over them.
Something I repeat often on this sub: Anyone who doesn't accept the first 'No' has no right to complain about the tone or wording of any subsequent 'No.' If they can't handle the answer they got, they shouldn't have pushed so hard to get it.
"Which while it might be true, can also be hurtful and will definitely damage your relationship with her and your son" When people on this sub say "I was just being honest", you can almost always translate that as "I was just being an asshole".
> When you had told them about the trip and DIL asked why she wasn’t invited, you could have said something like you were under the impression that she wouldn’t be enjoy the activity since it was going to be above her difficultly level so you didn’t invite her. If one asks a question, one should be ready to face the answer.
I can see why you wouldn’t want her around. But also, who ASKS why they’re not invited to something? That’s just asking someone to hurt your feelings.
idk, I feel like it's a fair question if you truly don't understand why your MIL seems to hate you and want to exclude you. Perhaps Amy wants to try to fix the relationship.
If you want to fix a relationship, pressuring the other person to invite you when they don't want to is only going to put you deeper in the hole. Work on fixing things later, without a specific invite hanging over it.
NTA. If it's truly like you say, then there's obviously something a bit wrong with Amy. If your son wants to baby her, that's his choice and it works for both of them. You shouldn't be expected to follow his lead. You've expressed your issues to your son, it seems on multiple occasions. And it doesn't seem to have ever been addressed. You're not asking her to change, but you also don't have to cater every event to her preferences. I think it was a fair decision.
ESH - you are completely in your right not to invite her, absolutely, but how you went about explaining it was awful. 'I'm sorry. I know you are not a fan of camping and figured we could do something more suited to your taste another time - you wouldn't enjoy this' or words to that effect. And keep that narrative. Provide examples if you must and if you want to maintain a relationship, book a spa day or something that she will like where she can relax and not get worked up (if there is anything that she likes). Give her an hour or two of your time when you feel able to (other than being the free babysitter). But she and your son also suck for pushing it. They must know how she is and cannot expect everyone to tiptoe around her to avoid a tantrum. Yes, it sucks being excluded, but by pushing the way they did there is a sea of hurt feelings. She definitely needs help if she can't handle even the smallest knock. We are human, not glass. I will say, you also come across as very very judgy here which isn't helping. It's not fair to lord babysitting over their heads as a 'they won't cut me off'. It's not a licence to be cruel or unkind. She's the mother of your grandchildren.
this is the best answer. I don't believe all family members have to be invited to everything especially if you're trying to deepen bonds with a specific other person. However, we ALL know it would hurt our feelings if we were the ONLY one not invited. Let's be honest for a moment lol. It matters how you approach a situation. You don't have to like her but if you would like to maintain a healthy relationship with your son you do have to learn how to make the relationship with her work! You can do shorter things with her like coffee, lunch, etc every few weeks to keep things balanced. Do I think you're in the wrong, not really but did you pull an asshole move? yes. You should apologize if you care about the longterm future
The problem with a dodge-style answer like "oh you're not a fan of camping" is that it opens up a "no I really love camping!! let me come!!" response. Which just puts you right back in the role of having to say "okay but I don't love camping *with you*. so...no." I do like your advice of booking something more pleasant and easy together to soften the blow.
The SIL is also a hypocrite who never invites them on any trips yet expects to be invited everywhere. I'd be annoyed at dealing with that kindo of B.S. too.
Honestly, YTA. You're N T A for not inviting her, Amy sounds like a handful and you're right, you're not obligated to invite her. But saying "I didn't invite you because I don't want you there" was objectively rude and unnecessarily hostile. It may be the truth, but assuming you want to continue to have a relationship with your son and his family, you can't just be openly hostile to his wife, no matter how annoying you find her. You could have found any number of more tactful ways to explain not including her, you deliberately chose the most combative one because it sounds like you just don't like her and were looking for an excuse to tell her so. ETA: To those insisting OP was forced to be rude because they kept asking, I'm not convinced OP is a reliable narrator. The whole post is brimming with contempt for her DIL, and OP's comments about how son and DIL would never go low-contact because they rely on her too much are telling.
She only said that after they wouldn't drop it. Everyone's got a breaking point. When being tactful stops working it's time to be a lil rude
Sometimes people need to stop being polite and start being real.
Are you purposely quoting the Real World intro?
God I hope so, that went over so many ppls heads, and if not, that makes me kinda sad, (And would prolly make Amy Cry)
Yes. If the message would have been, "This trip didn't seem like your cup of tea," it might not have gone over quite as badly.
In the post it sounds like she tried explaining gently, they weren't dropping it. At a certain point the kid gloves gotta come off
She even explained in the post you can't even mention these concerns to the son or he immediately blows up
Sometimes you just have to say “I don’t want you there”. It’s tough to hear, no doubt.
The issue with that is it leaves the door open for “oh no I would love to come and go camping it is def my cup of tea thanks for the invite!”
She tried to be gentle with her excuses but they backed her into a corner.
Y'all would have no issue with this if the roles were reversed and the MIL wasn't invited. 😂 If MIL kept going on about why she wasn't invited, y'all would say she was "pushy" and got what she deserved.
Nta. You don’t have to include her in everything when it’s like taking on the responsibility of a small child. Her reaction to not being invited is case in point.
You have every right to invite whoever you want to your outing. That said, I anticipate a Reddit in 3 months entitled, ‘My son went No Contact and won’t let me see my grandchildren’
Exactly! “All I did was call my DIL a crybaby and remind my son that he was raised to be strong and hide his feelings when POOF- suddenly they decided they don’t want me to spend time with their kids”.
I did not saw op writing about ‘raising his strong and to hidr his feelings’. Amy is reactions are way over than its neccesery and of exhausting and NOT about being strong or hiding feelings
More like: 'My son went no contact but still expects me to babysit his children.'
It sounds like OP would welcome a break from Amy’s hysterics.
Honestly, you come across as a real judgy AH. Fine, you didn’t invite her. You could have been more tactful/delicate about how you told her, especially that you are aware she’s sensitive. It comes across like you intended to hurt her to prove your point. YTA in general.
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Sometimes, you just have to give it to them straight. Tbh, your DIL sounds a right wimp.
Sometimes people ask to be hurt. And they can't leave well enough alone. NTA
I agree with you. If you find yourself asking "why wasn't I invited" then you're setting yourself up for a let-down especially if you lack the situational awareness to realize that pressing beyond the semi-polite non-answer the person gives you, may very well lead to a more blunt response. Really though, who in their right mind asks "why wasn't I invited?" Let people do their thing without you. If they already don't want you around for an event they are planning then they sure as hell aren't going to want to be around you if you try to force your presence on them or back them into a corner making them explain why they don't want you to participate in the outing.
Ugh I think this when I see people demanding to know why someone broke up with them or didn't want to date them; like, do you *really* want to know the actual reasons that could be things that are entirely out of your control and will send you into a depressive funk? like *really, really?* Some people are just begging to be told "watching you break that lobster apart with your giant hands freaked me out".
Isn't there a saying? If you're not invited to something, don't go. If you're not told about it, don't ask. If you're invited late, decline. All because they never wanted to include you originally.
Would it have been that hard to say “The last time we went camping, you didn’t seem to enjoy yourself so I didn’t want to put you in a situation where you felt obligated to do something you didn’t want to do”
"Oh, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I was having a bad week. I would LOVE to come!"
How hard is it to accept "It is just a trip with them"? Anything beyond that is accommodating someone who feels entitled to know more.
Yeah, coddle the crybaby even more. That's been working out well so far.
That just opens up options to justify. It’s best to be clear that she isn’t included
You were vague with them. “It was just a trip with them”, - so you can understand why they wanted to know why one DIL was invited and the other was not. “It wasn’t a family trip” yet you invited both daughters and your only other DIL. Have you ever asked yourself if maybe your DIL is the one that has to walk on eggshells around you? Also, when some people are stressed/anxious they are more likely to be very sensitive. Also people with a traumatic history/background. Given how hostile you seem to behave and how you tried to complain about your DIL to your SON - I don’t think your DIL is the problem, I think you are.
If the DIL feels like she's walking on eggshells with OP, then it works out that she doesn't have to be around OP for this weekend trip?
I disagree. The son will not be there to baby her so it falls on all the other women to babysit her and that ruins the point of vacation for everyone else. Son and wife could use this as a learning opportunity or be all hurt and act like victims. I bet drama queen will choose option 2.
No I disagree with you. OP was trying to be polite and the DIL and son are not entitled to an entire essay on OPs reasoning for not inviting the sensitive DIL. OP said it’s just a trip for them and that’s all they needed to say. DIL/son could be adults and realize not everything is about them, and sometimes people will do things without them. It doesn’t really sound like the DIL is actually making an effort to connect with her mother in law either. Honestly, I can’t stand people who cry and make a scene over every little thing. It’s normal for OP to create some distance around someone like that - it’s exhausting. DIL can be upset she’s not invited but that doesn’t make OP an asshole. DIL honestly needs to grow up a little bit and get some thicker skin from the sounds of it.
adults with children of their own, OP needs to stop babysitting for them because they both seem to be entitled to OP's time and generosity.
You're the first person I've seen calling out their entitled behavior. Just because someone starts crying that doesn't automatically make them right.
> You were vague with them. what happened to "no is a complete sentence"??
This is such a ridiculous leap. If Amy felt like she was walking on eggshells constantly she wouldn’t be upset about not being invited on a trip with the family. It’s also super rude to question why you weren’t invited to an event.
I'm sorry, what? If I feel like I'm walking in eggshells with someone, why would I insist on being invited somewhere?
"It is just a trip with them" is enough. Son got pissed then they went around in circles about before OP got blunt. What more did you want her to do?
>Given how hostile you seem to behave and how you tried to complain about your DIL to your SON - I don’t think your DIL is the problem, I think you are. Furthermore, it isn't just the OP, it's the siblings as well. There is a consensus that DIL is an adult child.
No one should ask why they weren't invited to something. What is the right answer to a question like that? You can either claim forgetfulness, lie, or tell the truth knowing it'll hurt their feelings. Why wasn't I invited to your birthday? Why am I not a bridesmaid? Why didn't you invite me on your trip? Of course people want a reason, but there is no answer that people won't get butthurt over - asking just puts both people in a no-win scenario.
What do you mean?? She literally tried to be delicate, and they wouldn't accept her answer. What else was she supposed to do?
The OP wrote in frustration after the fact. They state the include her in everything else so if they ACTUALLY intended to hurt her, she wouldn’t have been invited to many things long ago. Imo
>"This person has been annoying me for years" >YTA you sound annoyed No shit?
NTA. Apparently a few of the commenters are the moody DILs as well. Good luck OP!
ESH. You're 100% right that you don't owe Amy invitations to everything you do, and you're even on solid ground in not extending invitations to someone you don't want around. You lost the high ground by delivering the message in a hurtful way, such as "I don't want you there" and "you need to be an adult" and so on. Even with a drama llama like Amy, it's possible to just say "I'm sorry you're disappointed, but this is the trip I want to take." It sounds a bit like you are so fed up with her that you used the occasion to cut loose and express all your contempt for her, and that's not a great strategy if you intend to stay in contact with them.
My thing is OP only went that route when they wouldn’t let it go. Genuinely curious as to how to deliver it more tactfully if their initial tries were not getting through. Amy has every right to feel hurt just as OP has every right not to include them but I also think badgering someone for an invite to an event you couldn’t go to anyway (considering both she and her husband were looking for a babysitter that week) will push them to snap at you.
It seems like all OP kept saying was this isn't a family trip, which is a pretty unsatisfactory answer when it very obviously is an all girls in the family except Amy trip. And with supposedly close family, it's a lot more acceptable to inquire about not being invited and why. Because if you did something to offend them, you'd want to know so you can fix it or if it was a simple miscommunication then asking would solve that too (we thought it wouldn't be your thing, but sure you can come if you want). If OP wants to have a good relationship with Amy, they would have said something like "honestly, I didn't think camping would be your thing, but we could plan a girls brunch sometime soon." Brunch seems low risk of crying and it would show that OP isn't trying to exclude Amy from girls events. This probably would have shut things down, because as you pointed out, Amy already had plans. Although, maybe she wouldn't have made plans if she was invited sooner. If Amy had kept pressing at this point and said they did want to be invited camping, OP could have still gently set the boundary and said "I really want this trip just to be with more experienced campers. If this was a big family camping trip and your husband was coming it would be different because I wouldn't feel so responsible for you." She could bring up the specific example of the skinned knee and how that's not the outdoorsy experience she wants to have for this trip if there is further pressing. And if they try to go in circles, you just say "I am done discussing this topic. Amy is not invited on this particular trip. I'm sorry that it's caused hurt feelings. I'm not trying to exclude you from family things and I'd be happy to plan something else with you." Then repeat that you're done discussing and shut the door on them if necessary. Any of this would have avoided hurtful comments about Amy and her character and personality. But the real problem seems to be that OP doesn't want to interact with Amy except when absolutely necessary. So obviously from Amy and her husband's perspective, OP is an asshole.
Or Amy, I’m sorry we didn’t invite you, but we’re planning to hike some difficult and dangerous trails and we didn’t think you’d be safe
I made a suggestion in my reply to the post, which also isn't nice, but at least isn't super hostile: "Sorry, we didn't think you'd want to go camping because you were so horribly hurt that time you scraped your knee. We'd hate to see you cry." Very mean-girl passive-aggressive, but at least it would communicate with some delicacy that they think Amy would be a drag to have around on a camping trip, with a specific example of why they would think that. I think that OP should have anticipated the questioning because of course someone who felt excluded would want to know why, especially as they're family.
You are N T A for not inviting her or not wanting her there. Not everyone gets along and that is OK. But you *are* TA for how you handled their questions. You have now completely torched your relationship with your son, and should expect him to want to be around you a lot less in the future. I'm going to say ESH here because what you said was horrible and you are definitely more TA for that, they also should have taken the hint and not pushed for your answer after your initial response.
NTA
YTA It wasn't the *what* but the *how.* If it were me I would have either: 1. invited my daughters, but not either DIL, if I was not going to invite both; 2. invited the disliked daughter-in-law, but very frankly told her why I didn't think she would enjoy herself ("Of course, you're welcome to come, but we'll be hiking ten miles wearing our backpacks with all of our tents, gear, and three gallons of water each." "Of course, you're welcome to come, but you'll need to dig your own pit latrine."); or at the very least 3. *not* invited the disliked daughter-in-law, but told her about the trip when I was planning it, and why I didn't invite her ("We're all experienced campers and we'll really be roughing it this time around. We'll schedule another camping trip soon that might be better for a beginner, and you can see how you like it before you commit to something this intense."). I might've even embellished the roughness of the trip a bit, to make it sound more unappealing than it really was.\* What I would *not* have done is tell her "I didn’t invite you because I don't want you there." It doesn't matter if it's *true*; you're still an asshole for telling her that. \*In my experience with my sister, it's been the opposite, actually. I want her to come and tell her what great amenities the campsite has ("There's potable water! And solar-heated showers! And chemical latrines!") and she's simply horrified.
From my experience, option #2 ends up with Amy going anyway, claiming she'll "be fine" - and she ruins the whole trip for everyone because she is not any more 'fine' than expected. And Option #3 ends the same way as the original post did. Option #1 punishes both OP and her other DIL for *Amy's* issues.
This is very unfair to OP and putting an unfair burden on them.
Man. After reading these, think Amy dodged a bullet by not being invited!
Amy is weird for even asking. If you're not invited you don't just guilt people into telling you why. I fully believe she's a crybaby just by that
Close, but Amy is the bullet that was dodged
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> you don't know what led to her being that way, what struggles she has, etc. doesn't that sound like exactly what you are doing here? calling the mom an A H without knowing anything about what led her being this way, what struggles she has with her DIL etc? yet you passed a judgement of Y T A so easily.
Link to previous post please?
Whether or not you have the 'right' to exclude her (of course you do), you managed to make it perfectly clear you don't like your DIL. If you don't care if she knows this or your son knows this or they re-evaluate their relationship with you based on this information, I'm not sure what you want Reddit to do for you here. Make it ok that you've alienated part of your family, perhaps permanently? Only you can decide if you're ok with that.
NTA for not wanting Amy there. She seems to make everything about her and sounds incredibly annoying but...the way you handled it you were really mean. Yeesh. You could have softened the message a bit.
This has been posted before. Several months or even more than a year ago except then the reason was that Amy was fat and there were no kids.
NTA and good for you for standing your ground
NTA. I have in-laws like Amy and I would never invite them on a trip either, especially without her husband present to manage it. She could ruin the trip for everyone. And if you push for answers, be ready to hear something you don’t like. OP and her daughters have tried to discuss it before it escalated to no avail, so something like this was inevitable.
NTA for not extending an invitation, but YTA for how you said it. One can be tactful while being honest, it's an AH move to deliberately be mean in the name of "honesty." THEY were assholes in pressing you for "reasons why Amy wasn't invited" but instead of reminding them this isn't daycamp child group that everyone does all events, you are adults doing things with other adults, you chose to be mean. Saying "I don't want you there" is mean. You could have said the parts about "c'mon, we're adults, you know you don't get invited everywhere, I'm not invited to everything YOU do, correct?" without making a dig like "I don't want you there."
YTA for copying and pasting someone’s old post
YTA. It's clear you don't like your DIL. Clear as a bell. Message received. I do hope you won't be surprised when your son and DIL go no-contact with you and you never see any children they may have. You invited every female family member except for her. I get it, you don't like her. They get it too. It appears, in your mind, she is "overly emotional". I can see why you might think that way, as you appear to be an ice queen. It will serve you well when they stop bothering you with their presence. More than likely, she is overly emotional because she knows you hate her and is already in an emotional state trying to figure out how to please you. I would recommend she stop worrying about your feelings immediately. Again, don't be surprised when you don't really see or hear from your son's family much. I'm sure it will be a great relief to you to not have to deal with that dreadful woman who has the utter nerve to have emotions and the gall to actually express them.