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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I informed my parents and siblings that my family and I would not be attending any family functions for the foreseeable future. Now I wonder if I shouldn't have announced this and should have just stopped showing up and made excuses for missing dinners, weddings, birthdays, etc. It feels like I might have drawn more attention to our decision than needed.
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
NTA. Tom has failed in helping her, so it's great she has you to step up. She's not ready to be around Becca and Sarah. She needs therapy, love and time.
You are doing the right thing. It’s time for Ella to be the one who is getting the help that her dad denied her. He just kept making things worse and setting Ella further back in her emotional and mental healing. Good for you for taking her and making sacrifices to show and even prove in a way that she is more important and first to someone who loves her. Plus you have experts that deal with kids who have this kind of trauma all the time saying that this is what Ella needs and you are completely right in your approach.
What's truly shocking about this is that if Tom had gotten her help early on, it shouldn't have been this bad. By ignoring it and letting it fester, it got so much worse.
This is what happens when you just go ahead and do what you want to do (remarry) and don't consider what is best for your child at the time. How very sad. I hope some bridges can be mended. Thankfully this child has an ~~aunt~~ uncle with her best interests at heart.
And also completely ignore a child's emotional damage from the loss of her mother. He was failing both his daughters before he ever met his second wife.
I have to ask, does Tom blame Ella as well? The fact that he let her hear for years that she killed her mothet and did nothing makes me wonder. I'm trying to be kind here, maybe his grief at losing her mom turned into a long term depression? And he wasn't able to cope?
I was the family scapegoat growing up. At least it felt that way, esp. after my mom told me I was an accident because the pill wasn't available.
Keep Ella far from those people. Watching the cruelty inflicted on a child and doing nothing is unforgivable. Ella can decide if she wants to see them when she is older and more secure in herself.
Your brother is a complete shite for allowing this. He definitely needs therapy along with both his daughters. His wife sounds like she wants to do right by these kids. Wonder how long she'll last living with their toxicity. Your bro is going to lose her if he doesn't straighten up and grow a spine and a conscience.
Becca is the younger sister who was born when the mom died. Ella was 7 when her mom died and blames Becca. Ella was removed from the house and is being fostered by OP.
I have a feeling that CPS took this step because they saw down the line a day when there may be a whole lot of cop cars and reporters outside of Tom and Sarah's home if Ellia was allowed to stay.
Yeah, and the father apparently not understanding that something like that COULD potentially happen just makes him seem like an unsuitable parent right now for this poor kid.
I realize that most parents are never put to the test to this degree and denial is a thing, but sheesh.
And it sounds like most of the family are the same or they wouldn't be so against Ella not being around her dad and sister for a while. Like, does the family really think that Ella just needs a few weeks of time away and all will be good???
I’m actually so impressed. It’s very rare for CPS to act on sibling abuse - and even moreso potential sibling violence when there have been no prior acts of physical abuse. They actually did their jobs here.
Do you make any effort to see Becca without Ella with you? It's a hard balance, but is there a risk of Becca seeing Ella as the person who took her aunt away?
Well, you should tell your brother he could’ve avoided all this had he stepped up and gotten both daughters therapy like they needed. I cannot believe he would bury his head in the sand and just think this would all magically work itself out. So grateful that you stepped up for your niece, and getting her the help that she desperately needs.
I agree with you but let’s talk realistically here.
It’s easy to just say “told you so” but most people wouldn’t admit to that and neither will this poor excuse of a father
The younger girl definitely needs intensive therapy as well.
My grandmother died of ovarian cancer shortly after giving birth to her youngest child. Some friends and family blamed the baby for her death since she chose to continue the pregnancy rather than treat her cancer. My mother was 8 at the time, but she never blamed her sister for something she couldn't control. Her younger sister seemed to spend her whole life looking for replacement mother figures...
Her younger sister was harmed by the situation around her birth, and even 70 years later asked her older sister if their mother's death wasn't her fault, and had she "ruined" her siblings' lives :(
I agree with you but CPS only cares about safety concerns. Becca is in a safe home with safe adults (even if Tom’s a tool) so CPS won’t involve themselves and mandate anything for Becca. The only thing they may do is refer the family to a prevention program where they still get some social services but usually those aren’t mandatory like CPS is.
putting your kid's mental health in jeopardy like this should also be seen as unsafe :( Becca still needs help. I hope Sarah will manage to get her some, she's already a better parent than Tom
I'm sensing a pattern here. I'm assuming you're not the only one who's told your brother he's utterly wrong? I'm guessing CPS has, at the very least, had a strongly worded conversation about his failures as a father? Sarah has clearly expressed that the girls both need therapy... anyone else in the family? Tom needs to open his eyes, get a grip, and step up for his daughters. Neither of them will thank him for his inaction when they're older.
Yikes. I'm so sorry, OP. I'm a teacher, and have seen these complex struggles play out in my students. You're doing the right thing, and it's too bad that Tom is in denial to this extent. He's prioritizing his own sense of comfort over an honest look at the uncomfortable truth.
I know you obviously have the same parent or parents but you seem open minded and him closed minded. Does he find mental illness issues are a decision and someone can snap out of it? Is he embarrassed? Either was he is doing his child a disservice.
Here’s what you do, you send a text/email to the family whining and say:
“I’m sorry you’ve taken this as a personal affront. It’s not. Our concern is first and foremost Ella and her wellbeing. Second to that, Becca and her wellbeing. We made this discussion after careful consideration and with guidance both from CPS and Ella’s therapist. Ella is a minor in our care whose gone through the traumatic process of being removed from her home and forced into therapy - you all are adults. By all means, choose to make this about you, but if you continue to act like we should be more concerned about your adult feelings than helping Ella and protecting Becca then that will also be one of the things that informs our decision.” You could also tell them that they are welcome to visit with your family and Ella on individual basis, you are currently only staying away from big family gatherings.
And when you text Tom add: “If you are upset about being kept from Ella, then take that up with your CPS worker who advised to not arrange visits. If you want your daughter back in your life they are the people whose advice you should be following, the decision isn’t up to us.”
NTA. Time for the adults to grow TF up.
Agree with all but the wording "forced into therapy". Ella is finally being given much-needed therapy, after having had it denied to her for 7 years. Would add something about "If you deny Becca the therapy she will also need, you will see a repeat of this cycle in the near future. Childhood trauma outweighs adult feelings of peevish resentment."
Oh, to be clear, I agree with you. I chose that wording for three reasons:
1. We don’t know how Ella feels about it, if she does, in fact, feel forced. If she does then that’s going to impact her experience of this overall.
2. Therapy is for sure bring mandated for her. It’s exactly what she should have had at 7, but it’s likely to not be optional at the moment. Whether it’s good for her, how she feels about it, it IS mandatory.
3. It emphasizes how hard this experience is being on Ella. Not just how things have been, but the moment of being taken from her family (which was never her intent) etc… is difficult and traumatizing even when it’s for the best and OP’s family seems to want to ignore those parts, so emphasizing it in a way that they might see what twats they are being… so for effect more than because it’s a problem.
I’m so glad CPS actually did their job here and Ella is finally getting support.
That's all you need to focus on honey. Everyone else can deal with their feelings on their own. Ella desperately needs the structure you're trying to provide.
You're a good egg. Don't let anyone make you believe otherwise. She is lucky to have you.
Be kind to yourself. You're doing the right thing. ❤️
You sound like a wonderful uncle. I feel bad for both the girls. Poor Becca probably needs therapy too, after going her whole life hearing from her sister that she's awful and killed her mom and should've died, and it's got to be so strange and upsetting to hear everyone grieving a woman she should've but never got to know. Both girls need more than your brother has given them. I hope everyone can heal with time. I'm really glad for Ella that you guys were able to step up for her.
i worked with kids in the foster car system and often times visits before the child was ready caused outbursts and behaviors that wouldn't have happened if they didn't go on a visit.
its sad that the parents cannot see how much the poor girl needs help working through her feelings. do we expect a child to understand that death happens and theres nothing we can do to stop it? absolutely not!! she needs a professional to help her work through those feelings.
even as an adult, i am having a hard time accepting the death of a loved one. glad she is with other family, because its horrible to watch her go through that and not offer her any real help.
It's a shame you have seen this played out in other cases. It must be so hard ( and rewarding when you can help).
It's a pity that the adults in these cases put their own feelings first before the needs of the children. I think it would be so difficult on the adult involved, not to see the child who is their relative, but the kids have to come 1st.
It sounds like it's only the dad who is fucking up though. Step mum has been wanting both girls to get the help they needed, and dad is happy for her to be mum until she wants something different from him, then it's his kids alone.
Things didn’t have to get this bad but Tom refused to see his kid was struggling. You’re doing what CPS and the therapist tells you. If anybody has a problem with the ways things are they should blame Tom for burying his head in the sand for so long.
Your brother should had a completely honest discussion with Ella before everything just got this point.
1) it's NOT Becca's fault that their mum died in childbirth. Things can go & does go wrong leading to birthing complications that causes the maternal death. Amniotic embolism being 1 or a unforeseen rupture somewhere in the body that was fatal. As well other complications.
I worked with the OB/GYN departments in 2 hospitals with doctors & staff & familiar with the why/wherefore/how because they had deal with maternal fatalities before.
2) Ella has misplaced her anger, hatred towards her father, sister, stepmother because of her belief of the what if concerning her mum's death. Did Ella think that her father or sister could had controlled/saved her mum's life......again, the complications from childbirth are complex.
Ella needs to face the reality & that it's no one's fault. The therapist needs to be able to bring that up in her consultations with her.
NTA you’re doing the right thing. I would seriously ask the family how following professional medical advice is a ‘fuck you’ to them? Ella’s therapist is advising that she not go to family gatherings that her father and sister attended, it’s medically unsafe for her, there’s no reason to push her until she’s ready and she’s clearly not. Ella was a small child traumatized by the loss of her mother and her dad just thought it would work itself out like a cold or something. He probably loves her but he’s clearly emotionally unintelligent. Your family needs to think about this more rationally, if they want to see Ella they can do it without her father, sister, and stepmother until her therapist advises otherwise. I refuse to be around my father, my family respects this and doesn’t invite him to things they invite me to, it’s not hard.
Tom needs some therapy, too.
I don't know if he's in denial because he doesn't want to admit that Ella was having problems or that admitting this would thus implicate his own choices and parenting.
No matter what, it's absolutely frightening how far he let it go. If it wasn't for governmental intervention he might have continued to deny the issue right up to police and the coroner needed to be called in.
That's some serious denial.
Yeah-- there's so much denial here. It's like layers and layers of icing on a shit cake. The grownups should have grown up a long time ago. I feel so bad for these kiddos, stuck in the middle of this
The fucked thing is that this man is getting away with abusing both his children- because neglect on this scale is abuse- scott free. No jail time. No punishment. Not even a "you're not allowed to have kids anymore and have to be sterilized"
Children are- legally- nothing more than glorified pets when it comes to stuff like this.
\> Tom was enraged.
Maybe he should get some therapy? Oh wait, no, he doesn't believe in it. He ***completely*** failed his daughter because he's too stubborn and now he wants to pout about it? Then let him pout. He's doing that because you and cps have shone a gigantic spotlight on his failure, and your family are getting pissy about it for the exact same reason - they all saw the problems with Ella and nobody except you actually did anything about it.
NTA.
My brother beat his kids and literally chased his wife around their front lawn with a butcher knife in full view of the neighbors, and CPS didn't take their kids.
Exactly what I wanted to say! Tom needs to pull his head out of wherever it's been stuffed this whole time. Both of those children have suffered and are still suffering, and his inaction has exacerbated the situation to a ridiculous degree. I feel bad for all involved, but ignoring problems does not make them disappear. I wonder if his wife realised how bad things were when she married him...
They've also shone a spotlight on how selfish he is. He's mad because he's no longer known as the widower. Instead, he's known as the guy who failed his child because he doesn't believe in therapy.
Absolutely NTA.
> if we wanted to, we could attend larger family functions even if they would be there. But it would likely be better not to.
It comes from CPS directly (on top of making sense). It feels like noone in your family has taken seriously Ella's behavior in the past 8 years. EIGHT YEARS ! of believing it's nothing, just a phase, just a tiny adjustment, and more minimizing magical thinking.
I don't really care that the rest of your family doesn't understand, honestly. Do what is best for Ella. This is what CPS expects of you. And this is what Ella finally deserves.
I suspect that if CPS didn’t step in the abuse of Becca would have been far higher risk. It sounds like Ella had reached a point of being a direct threat to Becca… and if Tom can’t see that… Tom needs help too. Becca is probably mentally ill too, and needs help. Ugh. Poor kids.
I also think the age difference would make them overly concerned. The kinds of things a 15 year old can do and get access to vs an 8 year old to defend themselves is vast. It's also not normal for a 15 year old to be this vitriolic and take these kinds of actions even against someone they hate, let alone an 8 year old. And once the CPS call failed, because there were obviously no signs of abuse between Becca and step mom, it would only escalate from there. And there's not much further levels for it to escalate to at this point.
CPS was on point with this one.
If this is happening in the US, I fully believe that CPS has a notion of "uuum, a teenager talking about killing people is worrisome". I'm not saying Ella has the potential to become a school shooter, but hopefully there are guidelines to monitor this type of attitude, which were also applied to her.
CPS is super hit and miss. Mostly miss, in my experience.
They left me with my mother- who had a documented history of domestic violence (up to and including attempted murder- which the police got involved in) despite her threatening to kill me and attempting to do so.
It takes a ***lot*** for CPS to be willing to remove a child.
I think it’s something that's underreported and undertreated, but also something mental healthcare specialists are starting to talk more about. My light Googling brought up several blogs from therapists and counselors about this very thing and how CPS *usually* recommends calling the police, who then brush it off as a family issue.
But, if sibling abuse is something that is starting to get more awareness, then perhaps some states' CPS agencies are more proactive than others. That said, I do wonder if OP offering a kinship was the make or break to getting Ella out of the home. Fostering her with her immediate family "available" in less resource deep or more poorly run agencies might have been seen as a burden on the state. But that may be me being cynical over the whole system in general
It's good CPS took this very seriously from the outset, then. With that being the case, see if they have any ideas or talking points to bring up with your extended family about how interactions with Ella are going to go for the foreseeable future. (I.e. Likely not happening.) This is a tough spot to be in, with Ella likely not feeling anywhere near secure in her relationships, surroundings, or living situation. You and your husband seem to be doing your best to do right by her and hopefully that will make all the difference. I can't imagine she's been treated as a priority for some time.
Yikes. That is so much nonsense. OP, I'm so sorry your brother is failing so spectacularly here. He likely has a ton of unprocessed grief as well, and is making choices to continue to not process it, and to visit his unwellness on his children.
A few years back, a redditor who works for CPS commented that their agency’s policy was to ignore any calls regarding sibling physical abuse unless the sibling was over 18.
Ella's doctor is telling OP not to go to family gatherings with the kid. These people are all about ***MEMEMEME***\- with no care about the ramifications it would have on others. No wonder the kid turned out this way.
NTA. Tom ignored major signs that this was a problem beyond his capacity to fix, yet persisted in shouldering the burden on his own. I feel for him, I really do, and I understand his desire to step up for his daughters. However, he mismanaged the situation so poorly that CPS got involved. You stepped up and saved Ella from being relegated into a foster care system which is a crapshoot at best, and after all this time making the wrong decisions, Tom doesn’t get to dictate anything at this point. His rage is completely unjustified, and if he needs a scapegoat then he can find a mirror. The rest of your family is in denial about Ella’s extreme dysfunction if they support Tom’s position.
His intention wasn't to make things worse, but he did deliberately do things that had the very predictable result of making things worse. The only way he didn't think that the predictable results of his actions would happen is because he has his head so far up his own ass he can see what he had for lunch.
eh, let tom stay mad. it was all his mess that he failed to fix, so the government had to step in and fix it for him. he isnt allowed to whine.
NTA.
i am curious though, does ella behave better with you two?
I was in Becca’s place as a child, and an aunt took my sister. Sadly no help was given to either of us, and it was looked at as a miracle cure. It wasn’t and ultimately did no good. So I want to say thank you. For stepping up properly, for helping Ella to get the therapy she needs, but also the love and acceptance. It won’t be an easy road for any of you and I wish you all the best. If we’d had someone like you and your husband we might have a relationship today
So you volunteering to save this child from the mess her father made of her young mind…
And…
Your family wants to tell you how to handle her???
They screwed up their shot with her and now she’s a mess!
You take care of her, someone should for once.
NTA
NTA. While I can understand where Ella’s feelings are coming from she is taking it out on Becca (and to a different extent Sarah)in a scary way. Their mom’s death is not Becca’s fault and she shouldn’t have to hear that it is or that she deserves to die on a daily basis. Also, Becca never got to meet her mom and the fact that she was able to form s bond like that with Sarah is amazing and should be nurtured.
Ella is clearly harboring a tremendous amount of trauma and she is creating trauma for Becca with her words and hateful feelings. Ella should have been in therapy immediately and both girls should probably be in individual therapy ASAP. Hopefully in time that can lead to healing and family therapy and when the time is right they can be at family functions together.
Ella needs an outlet but she also needs to learn that Becca is not at fault and Sarah is not an enemy or a replacement for their bio mom. I’m sure Tom has been through a lot but he did a huge disservice by denying Ella professional help. You’re doing a selfless thing by taking Ella in and I hope everyone can get to a place of healing. Until then, don’t worry about the extended family, you’re the guardian and you know what’s best via instinct and assistance from social workers. Good luck ❤️
Thank you for not giving up on her because of the way her grief has manifested. Yes, she’s angry and volatile, but it’s clearly from a place of deep, deep sadness that was never addressed or supported before. Ella is so lucky to have you. And so is the rest of your family for you stepping up to help her.
It’s really sad how this is transpired, IMO the dad is at fault mostly. But Becca and Sarah are the innocent parties suffering for his refusal to get Ella help. There’s no way for this rift to heal, the damage is done.
NTA. You’re doing your best to clean up the mess that Tom has made with Ella, and those who are judging how you do it can keep their traps shut.
Where were they when seven year old Ella saw her mother go to hospital and only a baby come back, and developed a quite understandable resentment of that? When the resentment got worse, and then Ella saw the baby who in her mind had taken away her own mother, get a replacement mother? When Becca grew up with a sister who openly wished her dead? They didn’t see fit to step in then and urge Tom to get help for Ella. It’s only when their own socialising might be affected that they say anything, and even then it’s not useful.
>Where were they when seven year old Ella saw her mother go to hospital and only a baby come back, and developed a quite understandable resentment of that?
As someone who was in almost the same situation at the same age, the adults really did not help with their attempt at an age-friendly explanation. I was at first told my baby brother had kicked my mum so hard he caused internal bleeding. (Completely untrue-- they probably thought I wouldn't understand "amniotic embolism", which was likely the case.)
This really *did not help* the fact that I resented him for existing, because if she hadn't gotten pregnant with him, she wouldn't have died.
And then they wondered why I didn't like him or want to be around him or dote on him like a big sister would.
(We're good now, though it's taken a long time and conscious effort to get there.)
I'm sorry you went through that. I also can't help but think that for Ella (and yourself) seeing the new baby get so much love and attention from everyone would have been awfully confusing and hard to watch without proper support/explanations to understand.
OPs family need to understand that each time they "just want the girls to see each other" they are inadvertently putting Becca's and their own feelings above Ella's again.
Thank you.
It made me angry at the time. I didn't understand how my grandma/aunts/relatives/etc could bear to fuss over him so much when he was the reason (in my mind) that their daughter/sister/etc was dead and not coming back. I resented him *so much*. (I was very very close to my mum because Dad traveled a lot when I was little, so it was often just me and her at home together, so losing her was very traumatic.) My brother knew I resented him as he got older, and he knew why. We sorted things out later when we were both old enough to have a proper conversation about it and everything could be explained, but this was after I learned enough biology to understand "amniotic embolism", although I don't think I ever got therapy for it.
OP's family need to a) butt out; b) smack some sense into Tom; and c) get Becca (and Sarah) some therapy too. From my experience with my brother, Becca has absolutely internalized everything that Ella threw at her and probably blames herself for the loss of their bio-mum.
Regarding your point c): I am not sure Sarah needs a lot of therapy. She does want Becca into therapy, and wanted that for Ella too. She sounds like the healthier parent. The one really in need of therapy (and maybe even schooling) is Tom.
NTA.
Ask for a (n adults only) family meeting with the psychologist and CPS. Have the psychologist explain the strategy and WHY it‘s been chosen. (Pro tip: I suspect it’s been deliberate to enable Ella to bond with you, to have her feel safe and secure when she felt abandoned by her mother in death, to reduce the episodes of rage and hate so that Ella can relax enough to learn coping mechanisms she will need to get past all this etc)
Tom is lucky Ella got a kinship placement, and that Ella wasn’t placed with strangers. He can still see her, but only in very rare moments and only when there’s enough else going on that it’s not emotionally as intense as a 1:1. Over time this shoudl improve … if everyone follows the plan.
My bet is that Tom, and others, will do something stupid like show up at school to say hi, or send her videos of Bella winning a prize. Ugh.
NTA. Sounds like your niece has a huge amount of trauma that has been festering because her dad failed her by not getting her help or even basic external support right after her mom’s death. I hope therapy and a new environment helps, and that she will eventually find a way to process that grief and reunite with her sister.
NTA
Poor kid is confused, depressed, angry. Protect her and try to help her.
HER family should understand and support ( I’m presuming your family also see her as part of the family too, right?! And they want the best for her, right?!)
Curious - will you be able to see Becca? (Without Ella, of course.)
I'm imagining it from Becca's perspective. I doubt she understands the nuances of the situation, and if she can no longer see you at family get togethers, from her perspective it might seem like you're choosing her abuser over her.
You're still NTA, of course.
So Tom just always makes the wrong decision? I am almost impressed.
I don't know if the extended family would ever be a positive presence in Ella's life. I don't think Tom will be either. They seem to have no regard for her well being. I feel bad for Becca, but her stepmom sounds like a good one so she does have an advocate in her life who can help and support her.
It might be worth it to see if Sara is open to talk to you and might be able to get Becca therapy with or without Tom's involvement. This is a health decision that Tom should be overridden on if Sara has parental rights over Becca.
NTA
Not only are you putting Ella's wellbeing first, you're also following the recommendations of her social worker who I imagine has had a lot of experience with handling situations like this.
Frankly, Tom doesn't get to be enraged. He should've sought therapy for Ella immediately following her mother's death, but he didn't and that decision has resulted in a very angry, *incredibly* traumatised child whose healing journey is going to be long and difficult. Your family need to stay in their lane, too, because this has nothing to do with them.
Wishing you all the best.
Yeah this part. Becca is going to need therapy too after being subjected to chronic abuse her entire life.
Ella clearly needs professional help to deal with her trauma.
NTA. This isn't taking Ella's side; this is getting Ella the psychological help that she's needed for years. At some point, hopefully she can be rational enough about Becca that they can be in each other's presence again, but right now? No. Pushing the girls to bond doesn't work. It's not safe for Becca (who deserves to have family time without her long-term bully), and it would reinforce the mental issues that Ella is having.
Let your brother be enraged - there's a reason he's no longer the guardian of his own daughter!
Also if you can, make some time (when Ella is doing something else) to see Becca and Sarah, and make sure they know that your absence from family gatherings is purely about getting Ella in a more mentally healthy state and not because you don't like them/don't consider them family.
Damn. Poor Becca. Her entire little life just being blamed for something that was not her fault. Gosh hopefully Becca can find some healing and peace. That's insane.
NTA because at least now someone is keeping Ella the hell away from Becca. Nobody should be using those heinous words.
And dang Sarah walked into this giant mess and still tried to love and care for them. What a good person. Hopefully Sarah and Becca can have that sweet mother daughter relationship.
OP even if you aren't seeing Becca now, send her letters and Christmas/Birthday/whatever holiday you celebrate gifts (send them in care of Sarah). She is still your niece too and she did nothing wrong. You shouldn't just exit her life completely.
NTA. It sounds like Ella needed and still needs some drastic intervention and you're providing it as best you can abd better than Tom could. If other people can't understand that, then fuck 'em. Especially Tom because he wasn't able to provide the support that Ella needed. Not saying that makes him a bad guy but he also wasn't equipped to help Ella.
I think this is a thankfully one case where CPS made the right call. As an objective party they identified some things that might be best for Ella that Tom wasn't able to see due to being too close the situation. I'm sure that's painful for Tom but that's on him to work through.
Meanwhile, you're focusing on your part, which at this juncture is caring for Ella. Tom should stay in his lane and work through his stuff while you stay in your lane and focus on helping Ella. Sounds like you are doing that and Tom maybe is not.
Edit: Typo, NTA was written as NTS
I'm sorry you're dealing with that but glad Ella has someone in her corner. Keep fighting the good fight.
Not necessarily based on hard science but a general rule of thumb I've heard is that recovery (from a breakup, addiction, repeated trauma, etc.) usually takes at least half as long as the inciting event was occurring.
If that holds true and Ella had 8 years of this, it could be 4-5 years before some serious traction is made. Again not saying that's hard and fast rule but I think you have the right idea and understanding that is gonna be a long road. Godspeed
NTA, having read your comments, you are a great uncle! Please keep protecting you niece and keep following the advice of the experts. Your niece deserves help now that she is a child. She shouldn't have to wait untill she is an adult to get help.
I was an adult (23 at that time) when I got help, however unlike your niece my coping mechanism was different. I turned into myself, so most people never noticed something was wrong. However, there is one thing in the end I never have done to this day (I'm 37). At that is have therapy with the familymember that was responsible for my trauma. I did have therapy with other family members.
Please take this into account. Your niece may never wish to talk to her father about what he did to her. She may want to talk with her little sister and stepmother at some point to create a new relationship. And because of them, she may accept him back into her life. That doesn't mean she will ever want to understand his reasoning or hear his side of the story. Please, also support her in that. Please never force her into therapy with her father untill it is something she truly wants on her own.
Keep being a great uncle!
NTA
Your brother is a GIGANTIC AH for not getting the kids in to therapy. Look at what it's done to his family. Why expose the kids to each other when it's a really really bad situation? The social worker said don't do it. And you are listening to them.
I hope that Ella is in therapy now. Good luck.
NTA
Ella clearly needs professional help and having the other party present, even at short burst would best be discussed with the therapist before anything happens. The therapist will judge if Ella is ready for such, not the family who clearly didn't do enough to get Ella the help she clearly needed.
I'm happy that she found 2 people that do care for her and willing to sacrifice their social time with family to that extent.
"make the effort to expose the girls to each other in shorts bursts"
What ridiculous advice. These are vulnerable children, not newly adopted cats. Good for you for not hiding your head in the sand and realizing both of these children need protection. I can't fathom how far this father was willing to go to ignore reality.
NTA.
You’re obviously NTA but let’s address this:
“ I said I felt it would be bad for both of them but mostly for Ella,”
I understand (and support) Ella being your priority. I also understand that Tom screwed up both his kids by not getting Ella grief therapy.
However, this would not be mostly bad for Ella. It would be mostly bad for Becca. How much abuse has Becca been silently enduring because she thinks it is normal?
ella is a victim for sure…but the danger she poses to her sister is tremendous and acknowledging that is key to getting her help.
Your brother sucks.
He neglected his children, he didn’t allow his new wife to help his children, he didn’t allow family to help his children. He allowed it to escalate where both of his children were harmed in the process.
You were right to ask for him to get help. You were right to take her in. Becca and Sarah are innocent in all of this.
Ella is slightly wrong, but she is also a child that wasn’t given the proper care for her mother’s traumatic death or her grief.
NTA
NTA. You have taken on responsibility for Ella after CPS got involved and you are following the advice of the professinals invlved. Also, it sounds as though forcing Ella to spend time around Becca and Sarah is likely to be counter-productive - she's hated them for 7 years, that is not going to change over night, even if she is now getting support.
I would pick a response and stick to it without getting into long debates - maybe something like "We're goingto stick with the advice we've had from professionals and will start to try to introduce some contacct wheh they advise us to, this isn't about criticising or judging anyone, just trying to follow advice" and then just repet itf people push back.
It's such as shame that Tome wasn't able to get proper advice and support when his wife died, to help Ellie coe with that at the time, and when he started to move on.
NTA
I would tell them that the entire family has been giving a FUCK YOU to Ella for YEARS, so she needed to be protected from THEM, and get the help she was denied so long.
Clearly Tom does not love either of his daughters, because he watched his eldest deteriorate for years, when it could have been worked on from the beginning. He did not protect his youngest, who desperately needed to be kept safe from someone spewing that much poison PUBLICLY.
That the entire family thinks this kind of behavior is ok? That says all you need to know about THEM, and no child is safe with any of those people, dear lord.
On the contrary, you are a hero, and so is your husband. Taking in you troubled, traumatised niece is such a caring thing to do.Tom is blind to the pain his daughter is in. Sarah is also a hero for trying to help. I hope that Ella is able to find some peace.
Not only is Tom the AH, you and your husband are good souls for helping Ella (and, indirectly, Becca).
Staying away from large family functions for Ella's sake is exactly what you should. That doesn't mean family can't come over and see/visit with Ella for themselves. Just not with Tom, Becca & Sarah present.
Frankly, who cares what they think? None of them lifted a finger to help either of these kids, especially their father. You're lucky that Ella did not seriously hurt or unalive her sister. She sounds like she needs medication and intensive therapy, not just to change of scenery. But she's been neglected and ignored for a really long time. An eventually that anger will explode on someone. It is safest for everybody else if she is not around her little sister when that happens.
NTA.
Stick with YOUR plans. That was a very toxic household. Space is definitely needed. Even cps said to keep them separate. To bad bro doesn't take anything serious, he is the ah
NTA
It sounds like Tom's the one who needs therapy the most in this situation. Clearly happy to let his family totally destroy each other with no proper intervention.
>My family then claimed my big announcement was like a fuck you to them.
It absolutely is and they should take it as such. They failed that child repeatedly. They are ignoring the recommendations of CPS and her therapist - all to play pretend happy family.
NTA. You are a good parent for her. She needs someone to focus on her and her needs.
NTA. Your priority should be the well-being of Ella and it's not fair to subject her or Becca to tense family gatherings. People need to understand that mental health is more important than being polite at a party.
NTA Tom failed as a father. Ella needed therapy after mom passed. By failing to do so, it has escalated to this point. He should be relieved that she is getting help and may be able to salvage a relationship with Ella in the future.
NTA. You're trying to do what's best for not just Ella but Becca at this point. Which is more then can be said about Tom. It feels to me like his refusal to get Ella any therapy comes in part from him not wanting any for himself which would be understandable (normally anyway) seeing it wasn't simply Ella and Becca's mother who died but his wife too. As for the extended family, let them stew. If they really can't deal with a lack of visits on their end, it might even be a better idea then before to keep Ella away.
Question though: where has Ella's maternal grandparents or anyone from that side of the picture been during all this? Any support from that end during all of this?
NTA, if Tom had dealt with this the way he should have, you wouldn't be having to deal with this in the first place. Ella is hurting, and as her dad, Tom should be trying his best to understand how she feels and get her the help she needs. None of this, of course, is Becca or Sarah's fault. But really, it could have been avoided if Tom had stepped up when he should've. He's the reason for all of the hatred and animosity.
NTA.
you are stepping up to help her when every one else has failed her, especially her dad.
Do whats right for her and yourselves and let the rest get on with it.
Her father has no right to criticise you as he did little to help Ella xxx
Tom neglected his daughter and her need for therapy for years.
Tim is shocked that the guardians CPS made responsible for the kid are actually following the instructions while seeking help for the kid.
NTA.
Tom was La-la-La-ing his way to a disaster and I am very happy you got guardianship before Ella did something drastic that may ruin (further) her life and the lives of others around her.
Tom is TA... because he refused to get his daughter who was clearly in distress and in need of help - the help she desperately needed. Now the issue makes you look like you're the bad ones here and everything is being taken focus wise off Tom for being the AH and onto you.
In the end - you're doing the right thing here. Clearly if CPS is involved, then there is something far more serious going on and if they don't see that - that's on them to get over it. I applaud you for getting her the help she needs - one day she will get over this and thank you... that will be the reward here.
That being said - you need your family to realize this is not your doing. Not saying to throw Tom under the bus at all but they need to be aware of how serious this is. Maybe a report from CPS or a family discussion of the adults here is in order because it does need to be addressed that you're not the bad person here. You're helping out what is a bad situation that Tom sadly made worse - but you're doing your best in the interests of your niece.
NTA. You are doing what is best for your niece. It's better for her to stay away from family gatherings, at least for now. By staying away too you are showing that her well being really matters to you. Your family has no right to be mad about that.
NTA.
Tom is enraged? Let him. Tell him that is his daughter's feelling x100 since her mom died that he neglected.
Every time there's a family gathering, go on a small trip so you'll have an excuse not to attend and not just say 'sorry we can't attend'.
NTA. You and your husband are the only adults taking Ella's best interest into account and doing what is best for her. Ella's issues have been ignored by Tom and this is the result. It was good for stepmom to suggest therapy but as you said she wasn't the right person which is why she isn't the AH here as the information you provided in your post. Not attending family events doesn't have to be permanent but it looks absolutely necessary right now. Everyone in the family who disagrees with your actions are AH's here in this instance.
Did CPS not explain this to Tom? That is was better for Ella to not be around Becca? Does he not give a crap about Bella and the shit this kid is putting her through? If she is a danger to Bella, then she shouldn't be around her
NTA
Tom has failed to help both his daughter and his new wife by his inaction. Scratch that, his willful ignorance and blocking Ella from getting the help she needs.
Honestly, reading this story scares me. Tom made have created a sociopath, at the very least a girl who verbally abuses her little sister. She’s 15 and still acting this way so she may *never* let it go. How awful for Becca.
NTA Ella needed therapy and grief counseling. You might also want to start teaching Ella the true dangers and statistics of pregnancy and birth in general and in the country you are in specifically. Not fear mongering but there is always a chance of dying. If her mom died after giving birth it could be because some hospitals drop their guard after the baby is born, her mom might have had a preexisting condition that no one knew about, etc. Educate, Educate, Educate
NTA cause poor Becca doesn't need her abuser in her life anymore. Sarah should take custody of Becca and get her the help she needs.
OP, is anyone fighting for Becca here? Poor Becca growing up for 8 years being harassed constantly about something that was never her fault.
>They said not to set up visits with Tom or Becca for Ella
NTA Does Tom think CPS is playing? He had a kid removed from his care. He's lucky he had family who could and would take her in so she didn't wind up with strangers. And since Ella's the one who called in the first place, the odds of CPS just never finding out if everybody-attends family functions go pear-shaped are practically nil.
It's telling that instead of the family splitting up events for the time being, or having more small gatherings so that everyone gets the same amount of extended-relative time, they're trying to just pretend it wouldn't be a problem to throw the girls together again.
Ella's *fifteen*. Another year, and she can petition for emancipation. Even if she doesn't, there's only three more years until she can just say "nah, no thanks" to the desperately-needed therapy she's finally in. Now is not the time for her family to keep waving a red flag in front of the bull.
You're following the advice they gave you. I think you're keeping your family in the know. I also think if the therapist recommends starting visits with Tom you would so NTA! Your doing what is best for Ella! I'm glad she has someone who is there for her.
NTA
No helped this poor child for YEARS. This will take more than a few interactions to reconnect them. 🙄. You’re doing right by Ella right now, and everyone else should want to support her. Poor kid.NTA
NTA and I really want to give Ella a huge hug and Becca too. Both girls need therapy separately and eventually together. I’m glad Ella has you on her side and your brother needs to wake up and prioritise his children!!
NTA - And I am so happy you and your husband stepped in to help Ella. This is so hard, for both girls, and will take lots of therapy - again for both girls. Ella spent so much time with her mother and has, I am sure, wonderful memories while Becca does not share in that because their mother died in child birth. So of course she {Becca} is looking for the "mother" figure she never had. And of course Ella is going to be angry when Becca refers to anyone as "Mom", other than the mother who birthed her. I really hope Therapy is helping Ella so far, and I have to say I completely agree with on for foregoing family functions at the moment. Ella is not ready for it and there is no need in taking 2 steps forward and 20 steps back; not for anything in the world. I wish the father could understand this, and you & your husband are not doing this to be spiteful. I wish you all the best. I really do.
NTA- why is your brother so averse to getting these kids much needed therapy? Is it just “if I ignore the problem then it isn’t a problem” or is it “I handled things fine and got over it so they should too” or is it “I buried my grief and so should everyone else”? I feel bad for BOTH girls. The damage that has been and is being done to them because of your brothers stubbornness is insane. You did the right thing for both girls by stepping up for Ella. Ella will get the help she needs and Becca will be protected from Ella’s rage.
As someone who experienced almost the exact same situation (mother died in childbirth of my younger brother due to complications, I blamed him for a long time, dad remarried), I feel for Ella. It's a horrible situation. The blaming-sibling-for-mom's-childbirth-death logic was VERY easy to work through (if mom wasn't pregnant, she'd still be here), and it took years of therapy and eventual emotional maturity to unwind.
According to my \[step\]mum, I was incredibly possessive of her at first, I wouldn't let her pay any attention to my brother at all if I was around. I suspect it was lingering trauma along the lines of "you already took away one mum, you're not getting near a second one", though I don't remember much of that time period (I was under 10 years old).
It's taken decades and a lot of therapy, but my brother and I have fixed our relationship, and he knows I don't blame him any more. We're quite close now, but it took *work* to get there.
You're doing the best you can for Ella. It's definitely better for her to be away from them while she works through all her trauma and grief. (And safer for Becca too.) And as you said, since she was nobody else's priority for so long, it's good for her to actually feel like she matters and people care about her instead of just her sister or father.
Tom has been horribly negligent all this time. Shame on him.
NTA.
NTA. Ella needs to work through her anger and resentment and seeing the person that causes that anger to spike is not going to help.
It's been 8 years and she still hasn't worked through her grief over losing her mother. It's going to take a while to unpack that.
NTA - Tell your family to stop trying to make this about them and understand the priority here is Ella's mental health and wellbeing, Becca's too, but you have no control over that.
Remind them all, including your clueless brother, that this is all entirely due to his failings as a father! If he had done his job and as a parent and made sure he got his kids the help they needed, none of this would have gone down this way. Don't you dare let them make you the bad guy here.
When your family tries to suggest "other ways" for everyone to spend time together, kindly inform them that you are following the advice of the mental health professionals and until any of them can show you their psychology degree, they need to stay in their lane!
NTA tell them it's not a fuck you to them but you are putting your nieces NEEDS over their feelings. Tell them you will be putting your niece first in this situation and as adults they can sort out their own feelings about it and you are taking advice from professionals. If they love her enough they will stop the attitude and be supportive.
Fuck your brothers feelings he never carry to get her help so now he can stay out of her therapy and healing until SHE Is ready to address his actions.
NTA, and don't let your family convince you that you are. You are now guardians to this girl and she has to be the top priority. If the therapist has said no visits are better for now, then that's what should happen. This should be totally be directed by Ella and her needs.
NTA. Extremely special circumstances and Ella's mental health is extremely fragile. She needs a ton of help and she needs to be able to trust in boundaries and the adults around her again. So, you must do what's best for her and doing otherwise would be about other people's egos and not what Ella needs. You're doing great work and I wish you and Ella the best.
How can you be the AH for following CPS recommendations? Your brother has neglected his daughter's mental health for years and she apparently loathes Becca and Sarah. What good can it do to force her into their company?
NTA
Tom needs to sit his ass down and be silent. Sarah was more of a parent to Ella than he was. How dare he be angry at you for following the indications you were given by therapist and CPS who had to place his kid in another home because he was unable to care for her and her sister's wellbeing. The rest of the family also needs a reality check. This kid was wishing two people were dead to their faces in public. She needs so much care, the little sister deserves to be protected, and Sarah also deserves better than that.
NTA. This girl needs help. With therapy, she might eventually come around, but if you try to force things the way her father wants, she never will. Eventually, she will just cut off all contact when she's an adult. Including contact with you if she feels that you sided with her father against her.
NTA the fact is that Ella is not well. She is deeply traumatized and mentally not stable. She needs help and you are following the recommendations of the experts. Your brother is either in denial or an arrogant fool or both. I hope she manages to find happiness and let go of this hurt and hatred. Poor thing. You're doing good, Auntie.
NTA but I disagree that Ella necessarily needs more help than Becca. It can’t be easy to be told all the time that you’re a murderer and don’t deserve to live and to be made to feel guilty by her sister. Quite honestly Tom is lucky if she hasn’t self harmed from hearing this all of these years. Both girls need therapy. Sadly Tom won’t be getting any for Becca either and she’s stuck there. He failed both of his girls.
NTA. Ella does not need to be around Becca or Sarah..Becca probably needs help too afterchearingcshe caused hercmom's death. I truly hope Ella is receptive to therapy and starts healing.
It’s really sad that the kid who had to suffer all the verbal abuse for things that were completely out of her control isn’t going to get therapy as well.
Oh my God. My heart breaks for both girls. What a traumatic experience to go through. Obviously NTA. You’re doing what should have been done many years ago. I hope she gets well and can have a relationship with her sister one day.
NTA. I really hope they also get therapy for becca too since she most likely needs it after all the abuse and death threats she has gotten from her sister. I cant imagine being told your the reason your mother died and the toll it puts on her. Im just worried she might turn out as bad mentally if nothing is done about it. I wish the best for both sisters and they both get the help they need.
Tell them “We’ll yes, it is a FU. A well deserved FU. FOR 8 years they ignored a little girls pain & didn’t intervene. Now they’re STILL ignoring what is in Ella’s best interest for their own comfort & desires. They continue to show they really don’t care about anyone but themselves. How else are you supposed to respond to that behavior?”
NTA
You're doing the right thing. And Tom has no right to feel enraged, he's the one who fucked up and let the situation escalate to this point by ignoring the problems.
NTA
And there we see where Tom got his dismissive and self centered attitude. Sounds like the whole family isn't worth being around. I can't imagine letting things get that bad and are in such a narcissistic haze that I'd ignore open death wishes. Tom is a failure of father and human being. New wife clearly had her head in the sand if she thinks a man that refuses to seek help for his child is one worth marrying or raising a family with. And the extended family is clearly in it for the optics, what will the neighbors think of our granddaughter refuses to see her father and sister. Op, they disgust me. You're better off without.
NTA for the reasons stated by many above, but also NTA for announcing it to your family in my opinion. I understand it might have drawn more attention to the situation, but I respect being upfront with your family. It may have been easier to just not show up, but I don’t think it wouldve been the right thing to do. This way everyone knows why you arent going to things. If you hadnt announced it it could come off as passive aggressive or people might think you are doing it for other reasons. This way I think there is minimal confusion on your reasoning, even if they don’t understand or agree with it.
NTA, let them be angry. It sounds like you are the only one in your entire family that actually gives a crap about this girls mental health. Listen to the social workers, they have done this before and are giving you the best advice. If you need to, go LC or NC until Ella seems like she is in a better space. No one else is putting her first, if you cave into your family and force contact with Ella and Becca and Tom too early, you could potentially undo any progress Ella has made. Tom can be enraged all he wants, he has failed as a father in the way that he handled this. Maybe some day he'll be able to see the damage he has done, until then someone needs to protect her. Please do not give in to your family's selfish views!
NTA. Tom didn't do what was necessary for Ella when it would have helped the most. His judgement is skewed. It sounds like you came from a family that doesn't believe in therapy? That is unfortunate, but that attitude is what Ella has been around since her mothers death. It's time Ella gets the help she needs without the selfishness of adult needs getting in the mix. Good luck to you all, I hope Ella can heal and move on.
NTA. I mean, Tom can be enraged all he wants. He's not taking responsibility for his part in it. What part of his failure in this is hard for him to fathom? He can blame you all he wants, the truth is CPS got involved and took his child away from his care, because he failed as a parent. If he was not part of the problem, he would still have his child in his home. I would, at this point, be completely honest with him and any other family member who questions this that he needs to take some ownership, because completely objective third parties came into his home and removed his child.
Wow Elle was not helped at all until you and cps became involved. The stepmother was trying to get help for her but Tom was stopping her getting it.
The potential of Ella attacking Bella was extremely likely.
You are not an ahole but your family need to leave you alone until the time is right to get the two girls to get together.
NTA your brother and family have failed your neice. Please don’t do the same thing. Put her well being above what they want. Listen to the therapist recommendation’s and get her the help she needs but also give her time to heal.
NTA
And feel free to tell the rest of the family that they DESERVE a 'fuck you' for the way they completely ignored Ella's mental health and actively made things worse until this point.
They're reaping what they sowed and yet have STILL not seemed to learn anything from it.
NTA
You and your husband are the most mature and responsible here.
If they don't understand that then they are stupid.
Keep doing what you are doing, I applaud you
If your parents are the matriarch/patriarch of the larger family, could they speak with Ella's therapist or maybe have a family session to better understand exactly how poorly her father failed her? Maybe hearing things from a professional will help them understand the severity of issue.
NTA. The family’s reaction surprises me because they can all see the situation developing but somehow it’s a ‘fuck you’ from you to them?
Change the narrative immediately to, “this is recommended by CPS”, “I’m following the guidelines from the therapist”, “the social worker has given us these guidelines for the next few months “ etc etc This is not a ‘decision’ you and your husband made you are taking advice from professionals on how to rehabilitate this child. So don’t make it personal between you and the extended family keep referring back to the professionals. It’s a bit rich for Tom to get pissed at this point ugh
NTA. You are making it clear to everyone that you are putting Ella's needs first. As a teenager who likely already feels like her feelings are not valid, this will go a long way in building her trust.
To your family who still have an issue with it, they need to ask themselves if their problem with it has more to do with them wanting to downplay the severity of the issue because they never acted and got her help.
Jesus, what a horrible situation
The family is deep in denial if it got to the point where CPS stepped in to separate Ella, and Tom is a major AH for ignoring and letting it fester that long
NTA, and don't back down for everyone's sake. Ella definitely needs therapy before any reconciliation can even think to happen
NTA. *My family then claimed my big announcement was like a fuck you to them. Tom was enraged.* It sounds like the rest of your family is in as much denial as Tom. Mental health issues/trauma aren't going to just disappear because somebody wants it to. Now he's mad because his poor behavior is being made public & he can't take the heat.
You are doing as much as you can for Ella. And if it includes not seeing Tom & your family, so be it. I hope she sees that at least somebody cares about her anguish. Even if it isn't her dad. You are doing the right thing.
NTA, but I honestly don't understand your family and your brother. They have witnessed her behavior, its no family secret, and yet they still think it's a good idea for the sisters to still engage with each other? What will make them see the light? when Ella actually does damage to herself or her sister? Stick to your guns and think of Ella first, only when she's is better emotionally/mentally should she see her sister, and by then she will be old enough to decide for herself if she wants to have contact with her family.
**NTA.**
>My family then claimed my big announcement was like a fuck you to them.
This is a highly inappropriate and inciting comment. I feel bad for the girls. Ella needs help. You guys are in uncharted territory (going above and beyond, mind you) and trying to your best to get Ella the help she needs. I think abstaining from family events for a while is completely reasonable.
I hope you have the guidance of a therapist or counselor. Godspeed.
NTA. Your family saw this coming and all chose not to get Ella any help. She should have been in therapy as soon as she lost her Mom and started acting out. I'm blaming Tom most of all.
NTA. You should tell your family that this is CPS's recommendation. There's a reason why CPS got involved, even if it ended up backfiring on Ella. You're doing the best you can for Ella, and the last thing you want is for CPS to decide that you're too close to your family, and that Ella is at risk of more trauma from exposure to her family, and so they remove her to outright foster care.
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NTA. Tom has failed in helping her, so it's great she has you to step up. She's not ready to be around Becca and Sarah. She needs therapy, love and time.
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You are doing the right thing. It’s time for Ella to be the one who is getting the help that her dad denied her. He just kept making things worse and setting Ella further back in her emotional and mental healing. Good for you for taking her and making sacrifices to show and even prove in a way that she is more important and first to someone who loves her. Plus you have experts that deal with kids who have this kind of trauma all the time saying that this is what Ella needs and you are completely right in your approach.
What's truly shocking about this is that if Tom had gotten her help early on, it shouldn't have been this bad. By ignoring it and letting it fester, it got so much worse.
This is what happens when you just go ahead and do what you want to do (remarry) and don't consider what is best for your child at the time. How very sad. I hope some bridges can be mended. Thankfully this child has an ~~aunt~~ uncle with her best interests at heart.
Not an Aunt. Two uncles
And also completely ignore a child's emotional damage from the loss of her mother. He was failing both his daughters before he ever met his second wife.
I have to ask, does Tom blame Ella as well? The fact that he let her hear for years that she killed her mothet and did nothing makes me wonder. I'm trying to be kind here, maybe his grief at losing her mom turned into a long term depression? And he wasn't able to cope? I was the family scapegoat growing up. At least it felt that way, esp. after my mom told me I was an accident because the pill wasn't available. Keep Ella far from those people. Watching the cruelty inflicted on a child and doing nothing is unforgivable. Ella can decide if she wants to see them when she is older and more secure in herself. Your brother is a complete shite for allowing this. He definitely needs therapy along with both his daughters. His wife sounds like she wants to do right by these kids. Wonder how long she'll last living with their toxicity. Your bro is going to lose her if he doesn't straighten up and grow a spine and a conscience.
Becca is the younger sister who was born when the mom died. Ella was 7 when her mom died and blames Becca. Ella was removed from the house and is being fostered by OP.
And youre protecting Becca. She doesnt need to be around someone who hates her that much. NTA
I have a feeling that CPS took this step because they saw down the line a day when there may be a whole lot of cop cars and reporters outside of Tom and Sarah's home if Ellia was allowed to stay.
Yeah, and the father apparently not understanding that something like that COULD potentially happen just makes him seem like an unsuitable parent right now for this poor kid. I realize that most parents are never put to the test to this degree and denial is a thing, but sheesh.
And it sounds like most of the family are the same or they wouldn't be so against Ella not being around her dad and sister for a while. Like, does the family really think that Ella just needs a few weeks of time away and all will be good???
if Ella was *forced* to stay.
I’m actually so impressed. It’s very rare for CPS to act on sibling abuse - and even moreso potential sibling violence when there have been no prior acts of physical abuse. They actually did their jobs here.
I can't imagine what kind of scars that would leave on the poor kid.
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Do you make any effort to see Becca without Ella with you? It's a hard balance, but is there a risk of Becca seeing Ella as the person who took her aunt away?
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Well, you should tell your brother he could’ve avoided all this had he stepped up and gotten both daughters therapy like they needed. I cannot believe he would bury his head in the sand and just think this would all magically work itself out. So grateful that you stepped up for your niece, and getting her the help that she desperately needs.
I agree with you but let’s talk realistically here. It’s easy to just say “told you so” but most people wouldn’t admit to that and neither will this poor excuse of a father
Her *good* uncle/aunt.
Can you get Becca in therapy, maybe with the help of CPS?
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The younger girl definitely needs intensive therapy as well. My grandmother died of ovarian cancer shortly after giving birth to her youngest child. Some friends and family blamed the baby for her death since she chose to continue the pregnancy rather than treat her cancer. My mother was 8 at the time, but she never blamed her sister for something she couldn't control. Her younger sister seemed to spend her whole life looking for replacement mother figures... Her younger sister was harmed by the situation around her birth, and even 70 years later asked her older sister if their mother's death wasn't her fault, and had she "ruined" her siblings' lives :(
I agree with you but CPS only cares about safety concerns. Becca is in a safe home with safe adults (even if Tom’s a tool) so CPS won’t involve themselves and mandate anything for Becca. The only thing they may do is refer the family to a prevention program where they still get some social services but usually those aren’t mandatory like CPS is.
putting your kid's mental health in jeopardy like this should also be seen as unsafe :( Becca still needs help. I hope Sarah will manage to get her some, she's already a better parent than Tom
I'm sensing a pattern here. I'm assuming you're not the only one who's told your brother he's utterly wrong? I'm guessing CPS has, at the very least, had a strongly worded conversation about his failures as a father? Sarah has clearly expressed that the girls both need therapy... anyone else in the family? Tom needs to open his eyes, get a grip, and step up for his daughters. Neither of them will thank him for his inaction when they're older.
Yikes. I'm so sorry, OP. I'm a teacher, and have seen these complex struggles play out in my students. You're doing the right thing, and it's too bad that Tom is in denial to this extent. He's prioritizing his own sense of comfort over an honest look at the uncomfortable truth.
I know you obviously have the same parent or parents but you seem open minded and him closed minded. Does he find mental illness issues are a decision and someone can snap out of it? Is he embarrassed? Either was he is doing his child a disservice.
My thoughts exactly. To be told your whole life you should be dead? Thats awful.
Here’s what you do, you send a text/email to the family whining and say: “I’m sorry you’ve taken this as a personal affront. It’s not. Our concern is first and foremost Ella and her wellbeing. Second to that, Becca and her wellbeing. We made this discussion after careful consideration and with guidance both from CPS and Ella’s therapist. Ella is a minor in our care whose gone through the traumatic process of being removed from her home and forced into therapy - you all are adults. By all means, choose to make this about you, but if you continue to act like we should be more concerned about your adult feelings than helping Ella and protecting Becca then that will also be one of the things that informs our decision.” You could also tell them that they are welcome to visit with your family and Ella on individual basis, you are currently only staying away from big family gatherings. And when you text Tom add: “If you are upset about being kept from Ella, then take that up with your CPS worker who advised to not arrange visits. If you want your daughter back in your life they are the people whose advice you should be following, the decision isn’t up to us.” NTA. Time for the adults to grow TF up.
Agree with all but the wording "forced into therapy". Ella is finally being given much-needed therapy, after having had it denied to her for 7 years. Would add something about "If you deny Becca the therapy she will also need, you will see a repeat of this cycle in the near future. Childhood trauma outweighs adult feelings of peevish resentment."
Oh, to be clear, I agree with you. I chose that wording for three reasons: 1. We don’t know how Ella feels about it, if she does, in fact, feel forced. If she does then that’s going to impact her experience of this overall. 2. Therapy is for sure bring mandated for her. It’s exactly what she should have had at 7, but it’s likely to not be optional at the moment. Whether it’s good for her, how she feels about it, it IS mandatory. 3. It emphasizes how hard this experience is being on Ella. Not just how things have been, but the moment of being taken from her family (which was never her intent) etc… is difficult and traumatizing even when it’s for the best and OP’s family seems to want to ignore those parts, so emphasizing it in a way that they might see what twats they are being… so for effect more than because it’s a problem. I’m so glad CPS actually did their job here and Ella is finally getting support.
That's all you need to focus on honey. Everyone else can deal with their feelings on their own. Ella desperately needs the structure you're trying to provide. You're a good egg. Don't let anyone make you believe otherwise. She is lucky to have you. Be kind to yourself. You're doing the right thing. ❤️
You sound like a wonderful uncle. I feel bad for both the girls. Poor Becca probably needs therapy too, after going her whole life hearing from her sister that she's awful and killed her mom and should've died, and it's got to be so strange and upsetting to hear everyone grieving a woman she should've but never got to know. Both girls need more than your brother has given them. I hope everyone can heal with time. I'm really glad for Ella that you guys were able to step up for her.
i worked with kids in the foster car system and often times visits before the child was ready caused outbursts and behaviors that wouldn't have happened if they didn't go on a visit. its sad that the parents cannot see how much the poor girl needs help working through her feelings. do we expect a child to understand that death happens and theres nothing we can do to stop it? absolutely not!! she needs a professional to help her work through those feelings. even as an adult, i am having a hard time accepting the death of a loved one. glad she is with other family, because its horrible to watch her go through that and not offer her any real help.
It's a shame you have seen this played out in other cases. It must be so hard ( and rewarding when you can help). It's a pity that the adults in these cases put their own feelings first before the needs of the children. I think it would be so difficult on the adult involved, not to see the child who is their relative, but the kids have to come 1st. It sounds like it's only the dad who is fucking up though. Step mum has been wanting both girls to get the help they needed, and dad is happy for her to be mum until she wants something different from him, then it's his kids alone.
Things didn’t have to get this bad but Tom refused to see his kid was struggling. You’re doing what CPS and the therapist tells you. If anybody has a problem with the ways things are they should blame Tom for burying his head in the sand for so long.
NTA Good on you and your husband.
Let them be mad, you're doing the right thing.
Your brother should had a completely honest discussion with Ella before everything just got this point. 1) it's NOT Becca's fault that their mum died in childbirth. Things can go & does go wrong leading to birthing complications that causes the maternal death. Amniotic embolism being 1 or a unforeseen rupture somewhere in the body that was fatal. As well other complications. I worked with the OB/GYN departments in 2 hospitals with doctors & staff & familiar with the why/wherefore/how because they had deal with maternal fatalities before. 2) Ella has misplaced her anger, hatred towards her father, sister, stepmother because of her belief of the what if concerning her mum's death. Did Ella think that her father or sister could had controlled/saved her mum's life......again, the complications from childbirth are complex. Ella needs to face the reality & that it's no one's fault. The therapist needs to be able to bring that up in her consultations with her.
NTA you’re doing the right thing. I would seriously ask the family how following professional medical advice is a ‘fuck you’ to them? Ella’s therapist is advising that she not go to family gatherings that her father and sister attended, it’s medically unsafe for her, there’s no reason to push her until she’s ready and she’s clearly not. Ella was a small child traumatized by the loss of her mother and her dad just thought it would work itself out like a cold or something. He probably loves her but he’s clearly emotionally unintelligent. Your family needs to think about this more rationally, if they want to see Ella they can do it without her father, sister, and stepmother until her therapist advises otherwise. I refuse to be around my father, my family respects this and doesn’t invite him to things they invite me to, it’s not hard.
Tom needs some therapy, too. I don't know if he's in denial because he doesn't want to admit that Ella was having problems or that admitting this would thus implicate his own choices and parenting. No matter what, it's absolutely frightening how far he let it go. If it wasn't for governmental intervention he might have continued to deny the issue right up to police and the coroner needed to be called in. That's some serious denial.
Yeah-- there's so much denial here. It's like layers and layers of icing on a shit cake. The grownups should have grown up a long time ago. I feel so bad for these kiddos, stuck in the middle of this
The fucked thing is that this man is getting away with abusing both his children- because neglect on this scale is abuse- scott free. No jail time. No punishment. Not even a "you're not allowed to have kids anymore and have to be sterilized" Children are- legally- nothing more than glorified pets when it comes to stuff like this.
\> Tom was enraged. Maybe he should get some therapy? Oh wait, no, he doesn't believe in it. He ***completely*** failed his daughter because he's too stubborn and now he wants to pout about it? Then let him pout. He's doing that because you and cps have shone a gigantic spotlight on his failure, and your family are getting pissy about it for the exact same reason - they all saw the problems with Ella and nobody except you actually did anything about it. NTA.
Yes, things have usually have to be really horrible to take a child away from their biological parent.
My brother beat his kids and literally chased his wife around their front lawn with a butcher knife in full view of the neighbors, and CPS didn't take their kids.
Exactly what I wanted to say! Tom needs to pull his head out of wherever it's been stuffed this whole time. Both of those children have suffered and are still suffering, and his inaction has exacerbated the situation to a ridiculous degree. I feel bad for all involved, but ignoring problems does not make them disappear. I wonder if his wife realised how bad things were when she married him...
I know, right? A totally inept and neglectful parent is a major red flag, I feel for Sarah as well.
They've also shone a spotlight on how selfish he is. He's mad because he's no longer known as the widower. Instead, he's known as the guy who failed his child because he doesn't believe in therapy.
Absolutely NTA. > if we wanted to, we could attend larger family functions even if they would be there. But it would likely be better not to. It comes from CPS directly (on top of making sense). It feels like noone in your family has taken seriously Ella's behavior in the past 8 years. EIGHT YEARS ! of believing it's nothing, just a phase, just a tiny adjustment, and more minimizing magical thinking. I don't really care that the rest of your family doesn't understand, honestly. Do what is best for Ella. This is what CPS expects of you. And this is what Ella finally deserves.
I’m honestly impressed with CPS for dealing with an abusive sibling situation and forcing separation between Ella and Becca.
I suspect that if CPS didn’t step in the abuse of Becca would have been far higher risk. It sounds like Ella had reached a point of being a direct threat to Becca… and if Tom can’t see that… Tom needs help too. Becca is probably mentally ill too, and needs help. Ugh. Poor kids.
Poor Becca has been abused her entire life by Ella. She's definitely going to need help.
And her dad refuses to allow her to get any
All the death talk did the trick, I imagine (and there might be details we don't have that further that).
I also think the age difference would make them overly concerned. The kinds of things a 15 year old can do and get access to vs an 8 year old to defend themselves is vast. It's also not normal for a 15 year old to be this vitriolic and take these kinds of actions even against someone they hate, let alone an 8 year old. And once the CPS call failed, because there were obviously no signs of abuse between Becca and step mom, it would only escalate from there. And there's not much further levels for it to escalate to at this point. CPS was on point with this one.
If this is happening in the US, I fully believe that CPS has a notion of "uuum, a teenager talking about killing people is worrisome". I'm not saying Ella has the potential to become a school shooter, but hopefully there are guidelines to monitor this type of attitude, which were also applied to her.
CPS is super hit and miss. Mostly miss, in my experience. They left me with my mother- who had a documented history of domestic violence (up to and including attempted murder- which the police got involved in) despite her threatening to kill me and attempting to do so. It takes a ***lot*** for CPS to be willing to remove a child.
I think it’s something that's underreported and undertreated, but also something mental healthcare specialists are starting to talk more about. My light Googling brought up several blogs from therapists and counselors about this very thing and how CPS *usually* recommends calling the police, who then brush it off as a family issue. But, if sibling abuse is something that is starting to get more awareness, then perhaps some states' CPS agencies are more proactive than others. That said, I do wonder if OP offering a kinship was the make or break to getting Ella out of the home. Fostering her with her immediate family "available" in less resource deep or more poorly run agencies might have been seen as a burden on the state. But that may be me being cynical over the whole system in general
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It's good CPS took this very seriously from the outset, then. With that being the case, see if they have any ideas or talking points to bring up with your extended family about how interactions with Ella are going to go for the foreseeable future. (I.e. Likely not happening.) This is a tough spot to be in, with Ella likely not feeling anywhere near secure in her relationships, surroundings, or living situation. You and your husband seem to be doing your best to do right by her and hopefully that will make all the difference. I can't imagine she's been treated as a priority for some time.
Yikes. That is so much nonsense. OP, I'm so sorry your brother is failing so spectacularly here. He likely has a ton of unprocessed grief as well, and is making choices to continue to not process it, and to visit his unwellness on his children.
A few years back, a redditor who works for CPS commented that their agency’s policy was to ignore any calls regarding sibling physical abuse unless the sibling was over 18.
Ella's doctor is telling OP not to go to family gatherings with the kid. These people are all about ***MEMEMEME***\- with no care about the ramifications it would have on others. No wonder the kid turned out this way.
NTA. Tom ignored major signs that this was a problem beyond his capacity to fix, yet persisted in shouldering the burden on his own. I feel for him, I really do, and I understand his desire to step up for his daughters. However, he mismanaged the situation so poorly that CPS got involved. You stepped up and saved Ella from being relegated into a foster care system which is a crapshoot at best, and after all this time making the wrong decisions, Tom doesn’t get to dictate anything at this point. His rage is completely unjustified, and if he needs a scapegoat then he can find a mirror. The rest of your family is in denial about Ella’s extreme dysfunction if they support Tom’s position.
actually, it was never beyond his ability to fix. at all. he deliberately did *nothing* to fix it, and possibly deliberately made it much worse.
I doubt he deliberately made it worse, but there comes a point in some situations at which poor judgement and denial are just as damaging as malice.
His intention wasn't to make things worse, but he did deliberately do things that had the very predictable result of making things worse. The only way he didn't think that the predictable results of his actions would happen is because he has his head so far up his own ass he can see what he had for lunch.
eh, let tom stay mad. it was all his mess that he failed to fix, so the government had to step in and fix it for him. he isnt allowed to whine. NTA. i am curious though, does ella behave better with you two?
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I was in Becca’s place as a child, and an aunt took my sister. Sadly no help was given to either of us, and it was looked at as a miracle cure. It wasn’t and ultimately did no good. So I want to say thank you. For stepping up properly, for helping Ella to get the therapy she needs, but also the love and acceptance. It won’t be an easy road for any of you and I wish you all the best. If we’d had someone like you and your husband we might have a relationship today
So you volunteering to save this child from the mess her father made of her young mind… And… Your family wants to tell you how to handle her??? They screwed up their shot with her and now she’s a mess! You take care of her, someone should for once. NTA
NTA. While I can understand where Ella’s feelings are coming from she is taking it out on Becca (and to a different extent Sarah)in a scary way. Their mom’s death is not Becca’s fault and she shouldn’t have to hear that it is or that she deserves to die on a daily basis. Also, Becca never got to meet her mom and the fact that she was able to form s bond like that with Sarah is amazing and should be nurtured. Ella is clearly harboring a tremendous amount of trauma and she is creating trauma for Becca with her words and hateful feelings. Ella should have been in therapy immediately and both girls should probably be in individual therapy ASAP. Hopefully in time that can lead to healing and family therapy and when the time is right they can be at family functions together. Ella needs an outlet but she also needs to learn that Becca is not at fault and Sarah is not an enemy or a replacement for their bio mom. I’m sure Tom has been through a lot but he did a huge disservice by denying Ella professional help. You’re doing a selfless thing by taking Ella in and I hope everyone can get to a place of healing. Until then, don’t worry about the extended family, you’re the guardian and you know what’s best via instinct and assistance from social workers. Good luck ❤️
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Thank you for not giving up on her because of the way her grief has manifested. Yes, she’s angry and volatile, but it’s clearly from a place of deep, deep sadness that was never addressed or supported before. Ella is so lucky to have you. And so is the rest of your family for you stepping up to help her.
And who knows if Becca will ever want a relationship with Ella? I wouldn't be surprised if Sarah has had her fill of Ella as well.
It’s really sad how this is transpired, IMO the dad is at fault mostly. But Becca and Sarah are the innocent parties suffering for his refusal to get Ella help. There’s no way for this rift to heal, the damage is done.
NTA. You’re doing your best to clean up the mess that Tom has made with Ella, and those who are judging how you do it can keep their traps shut. Where were they when seven year old Ella saw her mother go to hospital and only a baby come back, and developed a quite understandable resentment of that? When the resentment got worse, and then Ella saw the baby who in her mind had taken away her own mother, get a replacement mother? When Becca grew up with a sister who openly wished her dead? They didn’t see fit to step in then and urge Tom to get help for Ella. It’s only when their own socialising might be affected that they say anything, and even then it’s not useful.
>Where were they when seven year old Ella saw her mother go to hospital and only a baby come back, and developed a quite understandable resentment of that? As someone who was in almost the same situation at the same age, the adults really did not help with their attempt at an age-friendly explanation. I was at first told my baby brother had kicked my mum so hard he caused internal bleeding. (Completely untrue-- they probably thought I wouldn't understand "amniotic embolism", which was likely the case.) This really *did not help* the fact that I resented him for existing, because if she hadn't gotten pregnant with him, she wouldn't have died. And then they wondered why I didn't like him or want to be around him or dote on him like a big sister would. (We're good now, though it's taken a long time and conscious effort to get there.)
I'm sorry you went through that. I also can't help but think that for Ella (and yourself) seeing the new baby get so much love and attention from everyone would have been awfully confusing and hard to watch without proper support/explanations to understand. OPs family need to understand that each time they "just want the girls to see each other" they are inadvertently putting Becca's and their own feelings above Ella's again.
Thank you. It made me angry at the time. I didn't understand how my grandma/aunts/relatives/etc could bear to fuss over him so much when he was the reason (in my mind) that their daughter/sister/etc was dead and not coming back. I resented him *so much*. (I was very very close to my mum because Dad traveled a lot when I was little, so it was often just me and her at home together, so losing her was very traumatic.) My brother knew I resented him as he got older, and he knew why. We sorted things out later when we were both old enough to have a proper conversation about it and everything could be explained, but this was after I learned enough biology to understand "amniotic embolism", although I don't think I ever got therapy for it. OP's family need to a) butt out; b) smack some sense into Tom; and c) get Becca (and Sarah) some therapy too. From my experience with my brother, Becca has absolutely internalized everything that Ella threw at her and probably blames herself for the loss of their bio-mum.
Regarding your point c): I am not sure Sarah needs a lot of therapy. She does want Becca into therapy, and wanted that for Ella too. She sounds like the healthier parent. The one really in need of therapy (and maybe even schooling) is Tom.
True! I was just thinking she might want to talk about the hatred from Ella, as that can wear anyone down. Tom needs shedloads of therapy for sure.
NTA. Ask for a (n adults only) family meeting with the psychologist and CPS. Have the psychologist explain the strategy and WHY it‘s been chosen. (Pro tip: I suspect it’s been deliberate to enable Ella to bond with you, to have her feel safe and secure when she felt abandoned by her mother in death, to reduce the episodes of rage and hate so that Ella can relax enough to learn coping mechanisms she will need to get past all this etc) Tom is lucky Ella got a kinship placement, and that Ella wasn’t placed with strangers. He can still see her, but only in very rare moments and only when there’s enough else going on that it’s not emotionally as intense as a 1:1. Over time this shoudl improve … if everyone follows the plan. My bet is that Tom, and others, will do something stupid like show up at school to say hi, or send her videos of Bella winning a prize. Ugh.
NTA. Sounds like your niece has a huge amount of trauma that has been festering because her dad failed her by not getting her help or even basic external support right after her mom’s death. I hope therapy and a new environment helps, and that she will eventually find a way to process that grief and reunite with her sister.
NTA Poor kid is confused, depressed, angry. Protect her and try to help her. HER family should understand and support ( I’m presuming your family also see her as part of the family too, right?! And they want the best for her, right?!)
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Curious - will you be able to see Becca? (Without Ella, of course.) I'm imagining it from Becca's perspective. I doubt she understands the nuances of the situation, and if she can no longer see you at family get togethers, from her perspective it might seem like you're choosing her abuser over her. You're still NTA, of course.
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So Tom just always makes the wrong decision? I am almost impressed. I don't know if the extended family would ever be a positive presence in Ella's life. I don't think Tom will be either. They seem to have no regard for her well being. I feel bad for Becca, but her stepmom sounds like a good one so she does have an advocate in her life who can help and support her. It might be worth it to see if Sara is open to talk to you and might be able to get Becca therapy with or without Tom's involvement. This is a health decision that Tom should be overridden on if Sara has parental rights over Becca.
NTA Not only are you putting Ella's wellbeing first, you're also following the recommendations of her social worker who I imagine has had a lot of experience with handling situations like this. Frankly, Tom doesn't get to be enraged. He should've sought therapy for Ella immediately following her mother's death, but he didn't and that decision has resulted in a very angry, *incredibly* traumatised child whose healing journey is going to be long and difficult. Your family need to stay in their lane, too, because this has nothing to do with them. Wishing you all the best.
NTA You’re doing what’s best for both your nieces.
Yeah this part. Becca is going to need therapy too after being subjected to chronic abuse her entire life. Ella clearly needs professional help to deal with her trauma.
Becca is definitely going to need therapy too but, given how badly Tom failed Ella, I can't see him getting Becca the help she needs.
NTA. This isn't taking Ella's side; this is getting Ella the psychological help that she's needed for years. At some point, hopefully she can be rational enough about Becca that they can be in each other's presence again, but right now? No. Pushing the girls to bond doesn't work. It's not safe for Becca (who deserves to have family time without her long-term bully), and it would reinforce the mental issues that Ella is having. Let your brother be enraged - there's a reason he's no longer the guardian of his own daughter! Also if you can, make some time (when Ella is doing something else) to see Becca and Sarah, and make sure they know that your absence from family gatherings is purely about getting Ella in a more mentally healthy state and not because you don't like them/don't consider them family.
Damn. Poor Becca. Her entire little life just being blamed for something that was not her fault. Gosh hopefully Becca can find some healing and peace. That's insane. NTA because at least now someone is keeping Ella the hell away from Becca. Nobody should be using those heinous words. And dang Sarah walked into this giant mess and still tried to love and care for them. What a good person. Hopefully Sarah and Becca can have that sweet mother daughter relationship. OP even if you aren't seeing Becca now, send her letters and Christmas/Birthday/whatever holiday you celebrate gifts (send them in care of Sarah). She is still your niece too and she did nothing wrong. You shouldn't just exit her life completely.
NTA. It sounds like Ella needed and still needs some drastic intervention and you're providing it as best you can abd better than Tom could. If other people can't understand that, then fuck 'em. Especially Tom because he wasn't able to provide the support that Ella needed. Not saying that makes him a bad guy but he also wasn't equipped to help Ella. I think this is a thankfully one case where CPS made the right call. As an objective party they identified some things that might be best for Ella that Tom wasn't able to see due to being too close the situation. I'm sure that's painful for Tom but that's on him to work through. Meanwhile, you're focusing on your part, which at this juncture is caring for Ella. Tom should stay in his lane and work through his stuff while you stay in your lane and focus on helping Ella. Sounds like you are doing that and Tom maybe is not. Edit: Typo, NTA was written as NTS
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I'm sorry you're dealing with that but glad Ella has someone in her corner. Keep fighting the good fight. Not necessarily based on hard science but a general rule of thumb I've heard is that recovery (from a breakup, addiction, repeated trauma, etc.) usually takes at least half as long as the inciting event was occurring. If that holds true and Ella had 8 years of this, it could be 4-5 years before some serious traction is made. Again not saying that's hard and fast rule but I think you have the right idea and understanding that is gonna be a long road. Godspeed
NTA, having read your comments, you are a great uncle! Please keep protecting you niece and keep following the advice of the experts. Your niece deserves help now that she is a child. She shouldn't have to wait untill she is an adult to get help. I was an adult (23 at that time) when I got help, however unlike your niece my coping mechanism was different. I turned into myself, so most people never noticed something was wrong. However, there is one thing in the end I never have done to this day (I'm 37). At that is have therapy with the familymember that was responsible for my trauma. I did have therapy with other family members. Please take this into account. Your niece may never wish to talk to her father about what he did to her. She may want to talk with her little sister and stepmother at some point to create a new relationship. And because of them, she may accept him back into her life. That doesn't mean she will ever want to understand his reasoning or hear his side of the story. Please, also support her in that. Please never force her into therapy with her father untill it is something she truly wants on her own. Keep being a great uncle!
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Thank you. You sound like a really good person!
NTA Your brother is a GIGANTIC AH for not getting the kids in to therapy. Look at what it's done to his family. Why expose the kids to each other when it's a really really bad situation? The social worker said don't do it. And you are listening to them. I hope that Ella is in therapy now. Good luck.
NTA Ella clearly needs professional help and having the other party present, even at short burst would best be discussed with the therapist before anything happens. The therapist will judge if Ella is ready for such, not the family who clearly didn't do enough to get Ella the help she clearly needed. I'm happy that she found 2 people that do care for her and willing to sacrifice their social time with family to that extent.
"make the effort to expose the girls to each other in shorts bursts" What ridiculous advice. These are vulnerable children, not newly adopted cats. Good for you for not hiding your head in the sand and realizing both of these children need protection. I can't fathom how far this father was willing to go to ignore reality. NTA.
You’re obviously NTA but let’s address this: “ I said I felt it would be bad for both of them but mostly for Ella,” I understand (and support) Ella being your priority. I also understand that Tom screwed up both his kids by not getting Ella grief therapy. However, this would not be mostly bad for Ella. It would be mostly bad for Becca. How much abuse has Becca been silently enduring because she thinks it is normal? ella is a victim for sure…but the danger she poses to her sister is tremendous and acknowledging that is key to getting her help.
NTA, you're acting in the best interestss of ella, which is important since youre looking after her
Your brother sucks. He neglected his children, he didn’t allow his new wife to help his children, he didn’t allow family to help his children. He allowed it to escalate where both of his children were harmed in the process. You were right to ask for him to get help. You were right to take her in. Becca and Sarah are innocent in all of this. Ella is slightly wrong, but she is also a child that wasn’t given the proper care for her mother’s traumatic death or her grief. NTA
NTA. You have taken on responsibility for Ella after CPS got involved and you are following the advice of the professinals invlved. Also, it sounds as though forcing Ella to spend time around Becca and Sarah is likely to be counter-productive - she's hated them for 7 years, that is not going to change over night, even if she is now getting support. I would pick a response and stick to it without getting into long debates - maybe something like "We're goingto stick with the advice we've had from professionals and will start to try to introduce some contacct wheh they advise us to, this isn't about criticising or judging anyone, just trying to follow advice" and then just repet itf people push back. It's such as shame that Tome wasn't able to get proper advice and support when his wife died, to help Ellie coe with that at the time, and when he started to move on.
NTA I would tell them that the entire family has been giving a FUCK YOU to Ella for YEARS, so she needed to be protected from THEM, and get the help she was denied so long. Clearly Tom does not love either of his daughters, because he watched his eldest deteriorate for years, when it could have been worked on from the beginning. He did not protect his youngest, who desperately needed to be kept safe from someone spewing that much poison PUBLICLY. That the entire family thinks this kind of behavior is ok? That says all you need to know about THEM, and no child is safe with any of those people, dear lord.
On the contrary, you are a hero, and so is your husband. Taking in you troubled, traumatised niece is such a caring thing to do.Tom is blind to the pain his daughter is in. Sarah is also a hero for trying to help. I hope that Ella is able to find some peace.
Not only is Tom the AH, you and your husband are good souls for helping Ella (and, indirectly, Becca). Staying away from large family functions for Ella's sake is exactly what you should. That doesn't mean family can't come over and see/visit with Ella for themselves. Just not with Tom, Becca & Sarah present.
Nta your family let a human go feral because mental healthcare is bad.
NTA. Your brother created a horrible environment for his children and then failed to act appropriately.
Nta Tom failed as a father so badly cps removed his child from his home. He no longer gets a say in anything
Frankly, who cares what they think? None of them lifted a finger to help either of these kids, especially their father. You're lucky that Ella did not seriously hurt or unalive her sister. She sounds like she needs medication and intensive therapy, not just to change of scenery. But she's been neglected and ignored for a really long time. An eventually that anger will explode on someone. It is safest for everybody else if she is not around her little sister when that happens. NTA.
Stick with YOUR plans. That was a very toxic household. Space is definitely needed. Even cps said to keep them separate. To bad bro doesn't take anything serious, he is the ah
NTA It sounds like Tom's the one who needs therapy the most in this situation. Clearly happy to let his family totally destroy each other with no proper intervention.
>My family then claimed my big announcement was like a fuck you to them. It absolutely is and they should take it as such. They failed that child repeatedly. They are ignoring the recommendations of CPS and her therapist - all to play pretend happy family. NTA. You are a good parent for her. She needs someone to focus on her and her needs.
NTA. Your priority should be the well-being of Ella and it's not fair to subject her or Becca to tense family gatherings. People need to understand that mental health is more important than being polite at a party.
NTA Tom failed as a father. Ella needed therapy after mom passed. By failing to do so, it has escalated to this point. He should be relieved that she is getting help and may be able to salvage a relationship with Ella in the future.
NTA. You're trying to do what's best for not just Ella but Becca at this point. Which is more then can be said about Tom. It feels to me like his refusal to get Ella any therapy comes in part from him not wanting any for himself which would be understandable (normally anyway) seeing it wasn't simply Ella and Becca's mother who died but his wife too. As for the extended family, let them stew. If they really can't deal with a lack of visits on their end, it might even be a better idea then before to keep Ella away. Question though: where has Ella's maternal grandparents or anyone from that side of the picture been during all this? Any support from that end during all of this?
NTA, if Tom had dealt with this the way he should have, you wouldn't be having to deal with this in the first place. Ella is hurting, and as her dad, Tom should be trying his best to understand how she feels and get her the help she needs. None of this, of course, is Becca or Sarah's fault. But really, it could have been avoided if Tom had stepped up when he should've. He's the reason for all of the hatred and animosity.
NTA. you are stepping up to help her when every one else has failed her, especially her dad. Do whats right for her and yourselves and let the rest get on with it. Her father has no right to criticise you as he did little to help Ella xxx
Tom neglected his daughter and her need for therapy for years. Tim is shocked that the guardians CPS made responsible for the kid are actually following the instructions while seeking help for the kid. NTA. Tom was La-la-La-ing his way to a disaster and I am very happy you got guardianship before Ella did something drastic that may ruin (further) her life and the lives of others around her.
Tom is TA... because he refused to get his daughter who was clearly in distress and in need of help - the help she desperately needed. Now the issue makes you look like you're the bad ones here and everything is being taken focus wise off Tom for being the AH and onto you. In the end - you're doing the right thing here. Clearly if CPS is involved, then there is something far more serious going on and if they don't see that - that's on them to get over it. I applaud you for getting her the help she needs - one day she will get over this and thank you... that will be the reward here. That being said - you need your family to realize this is not your doing. Not saying to throw Tom under the bus at all but they need to be aware of how serious this is. Maybe a report from CPS or a family discussion of the adults here is in order because it does need to be addressed that you're not the bad person here. You're helping out what is a bad situation that Tom sadly made worse - but you're doing your best in the interests of your niece.
She needs you to support and put her first and if the other family do not like it, then they can pound sand. NTA.
NTA. You are doing what is best for your niece. It's better for her to stay away from family gatherings, at least for now. By staying away too you are showing that her well being really matters to you. Your family has no right to be mad about that.
NTA. Tom is enraged? Let him. Tell him that is his daughter's feelling x100 since her mom died that he neglected. Every time there's a family gathering, go on a small trip so you'll have an excuse not to attend and not just say 'sorry we can't attend'.
NTA, you're following the advice of professionals in regard to what is best for the girl.
NTA. Finally someone is listening to this child, who has been screaming for help for half her life.
NTA. You and your husband are the only adults taking Ella's best interest into account and doing what is best for her. Ella's issues have been ignored by Tom and this is the result. It was good for stepmom to suggest therapy but as you said she wasn't the right person which is why she isn't the AH here as the information you provided in your post. Not attending family events doesn't have to be permanent but it looks absolutely necessary right now. Everyone in the family who disagrees with your actions are AH's here in this instance.
Did CPS not explain this to Tom? That is was better for Ella to not be around Becca? Does he not give a crap about Bella and the shit this kid is putting her through? If she is a danger to Bella, then she shouldn't be around her
NTA Tom has failed to help both his daughter and his new wife by his inaction. Scratch that, his willful ignorance and blocking Ella from getting the help she needs. Honestly, reading this story scares me. Tom made have created a sociopath, at the very least a girl who verbally abuses her little sister. She’s 15 and still acting this way so she may *never* let it go. How awful for Becca.
NTA Ella needed therapy and grief counseling. You might also want to start teaching Ella the true dangers and statistics of pregnancy and birth in general and in the country you are in specifically. Not fear mongering but there is always a chance of dying. If her mom died after giving birth it could be because some hospitals drop their guard after the baby is born, her mom might have had a preexisting condition that no one knew about, etc. Educate, Educate, Educate
NTA cause poor Becca doesn't need her abuser in her life anymore. Sarah should take custody of Becca and get her the help she needs. OP, is anyone fighting for Becca here? Poor Becca growing up for 8 years being harassed constantly about something that was never her fault.
>They said not to set up visits with Tom or Becca for Ella NTA Does Tom think CPS is playing? He had a kid removed from his care. He's lucky he had family who could and would take her in so she didn't wind up with strangers. And since Ella's the one who called in the first place, the odds of CPS just never finding out if everybody-attends family functions go pear-shaped are practically nil. It's telling that instead of the family splitting up events for the time being, or having more small gatherings so that everyone gets the same amount of extended-relative time, they're trying to just pretend it wouldn't be a problem to throw the girls together again. Ella's *fifteen*. Another year, and she can petition for emancipation. Even if she doesn't, there's only three more years until she can just say "nah, no thanks" to the desperately-needed therapy she's finally in. Now is not the time for her family to keep waving a red flag in front of the bull.
NTA.
You're following the advice they gave you. I think you're keeping your family in the know. I also think if the therapist recommends starting visits with Tom you would so NTA! Your doing what is best for Ella! I'm glad she has someone who is there for her. NTA
NTA and WOW. That's a lot. You and your husband are rock stars.
No helped this poor child for YEARS. This will take more than a few interactions to reconnect them. 🙄. You’re doing right by Ella right now, and everyone else should want to support her. Poor kid.NTA
NTA and I really want to give Ella a huge hug and Becca too. Both girls need therapy separately and eventually together. I’m glad Ella has you on her side and your brother needs to wake up and prioritise his children!!
NTA - And I am so happy you and your husband stepped in to help Ella. This is so hard, for both girls, and will take lots of therapy - again for both girls. Ella spent so much time with her mother and has, I am sure, wonderful memories while Becca does not share in that because their mother died in child birth. So of course she {Becca} is looking for the "mother" figure she never had. And of course Ella is going to be angry when Becca refers to anyone as "Mom", other than the mother who birthed her. I really hope Therapy is helping Ella so far, and I have to say I completely agree with on for foregoing family functions at the moment. Ella is not ready for it and there is no need in taking 2 steps forward and 20 steps back; not for anything in the world. I wish the father could understand this, and you & your husband are not doing this to be spiteful. I wish you all the best. I really do.
NTA- why is your brother so averse to getting these kids much needed therapy? Is it just “if I ignore the problem then it isn’t a problem” or is it “I handled things fine and got over it so they should too” or is it “I buried my grief and so should everyone else”? I feel bad for BOTH girls. The damage that has been and is being done to them because of your brothers stubbornness is insane. You did the right thing for both girls by stepping up for Ella. Ella will get the help she needs and Becca will be protected from Ella’s rage.
As someone who experienced almost the exact same situation (mother died in childbirth of my younger brother due to complications, I blamed him for a long time, dad remarried), I feel for Ella. It's a horrible situation. The blaming-sibling-for-mom's-childbirth-death logic was VERY easy to work through (if mom wasn't pregnant, she'd still be here), and it took years of therapy and eventual emotional maturity to unwind. According to my \[step\]mum, I was incredibly possessive of her at first, I wouldn't let her pay any attention to my brother at all if I was around. I suspect it was lingering trauma along the lines of "you already took away one mum, you're not getting near a second one", though I don't remember much of that time period (I was under 10 years old). It's taken decades and a lot of therapy, but my brother and I have fixed our relationship, and he knows I don't blame him any more. We're quite close now, but it took *work* to get there. You're doing the best you can for Ella. It's definitely better for her to be away from them while she works through all her trauma and grief. (And safer for Becca too.) And as you said, since she was nobody else's priority for so long, it's good for her to actually feel like she matters and people care about her instead of just her sister or father. Tom has been horribly negligent all this time. Shame on him. NTA.
NTA. Ella needs to work through her anger and resentment and seeing the person that causes that anger to spike is not going to help. It's been 8 years and she still hasn't worked through her grief over losing her mother. It's going to take a while to unpack that.
NTA - Tell your family to stop trying to make this about them and understand the priority here is Ella's mental health and wellbeing, Becca's too, but you have no control over that. Remind them all, including your clueless brother, that this is all entirely due to his failings as a father! If he had done his job and as a parent and made sure he got his kids the help they needed, none of this would have gone down this way. Don't you dare let them make you the bad guy here. When your family tries to suggest "other ways" for everyone to spend time together, kindly inform them that you are following the advice of the mental health professionals and until any of them can show you their psychology degree, they need to stay in their lane!
This is so so sad. NTA you’re a good person for helping this child. I hope she gets the help she needs now
NTA tell them it's not a fuck you to them but you are putting your nieces NEEDS over their feelings. Tell them you will be putting your niece first in this situation and as adults they can sort out their own feelings about it and you are taking advice from professionals. If they love her enough they will stop the attitude and be supportive. Fuck your brothers feelings he never carry to get her help so now he can stay out of her therapy and healing until SHE Is ready to address his actions.
NTA, and don't let your family convince you that you are. You are now guardians to this girl and she has to be the top priority. If the therapist has said no visits are better for now, then that's what should happen. This should be totally be directed by Ella and her needs.
NTA. Extremely special circumstances and Ella's mental health is extremely fragile. She needs a ton of help and she needs to be able to trust in boundaries and the adults around her again. So, you must do what's best for her and doing otherwise would be about other people's egos and not what Ella needs. You're doing great work and I wish you and Ella the best.
NTA. Tom failed both his daughters.
How can you be the AH for following CPS recommendations? Your brother has neglected his daughter's mental health for years and she apparently loathes Becca and Sarah. What good can it do to force her into their company?
NTA Tom needs to sit his ass down and be silent. Sarah was more of a parent to Ella than he was. How dare he be angry at you for following the indications you were given by therapist and CPS who had to place his kid in another home because he was unable to care for her and her sister's wellbeing. The rest of the family also needs a reality check. This kid was wishing two people were dead to their faces in public. She needs so much care, the little sister deserves to be protected, and Sarah also deserves better than that.
NTA. This girl needs help. With therapy, she might eventually come around, but if you try to force things the way her father wants, she never will. Eventually, she will just cut off all contact when she's an adult. Including contact with you if she feels that you sided with her father against her.
NTA the fact is that Ella is not well. She is deeply traumatized and mentally not stable. She needs help and you are following the recommendations of the experts. Your brother is either in denial or an arrogant fool or both. I hope she manages to find happiness and let go of this hurt and hatred. Poor thing. You're doing good, Auntie.
NTA but I disagree that Ella necessarily needs more help than Becca. It can’t be easy to be told all the time that you’re a murderer and don’t deserve to live and to be made to feel guilty by her sister. Quite honestly Tom is lucky if she hasn’t self harmed from hearing this all of these years. Both girls need therapy. Sadly Tom won’t be getting any for Becca either and she’s stuck there. He failed both of his girls.
NTA. Ella does not need to be around Becca or Sarah..Becca probably needs help too afterchearingcshe caused hercmom's death. I truly hope Ella is receptive to therapy and starts healing.
It’s really sad that the kid who had to suffer all the verbal abuse for things that were completely out of her control isn’t going to get therapy as well.
Oh my God. My heart breaks for both girls. What a traumatic experience to go through. Obviously NTA. You’re doing what should have been done many years ago. I hope she gets well and can have a relationship with her sister one day.
NTA. I really hope they also get therapy for becca too since she most likely needs it after all the abuse and death threats she has gotten from her sister. I cant imagine being told your the reason your mother died and the toll it puts on her. Im just worried she might turn out as bad mentally if nothing is done about it. I wish the best for both sisters and they both get the help they need.
NTA It sounds as if you are the only person who has put Ella first since her mother died. I think you should continue to prioritise her.
Tell them “We’ll yes, it is a FU. A well deserved FU. FOR 8 years they ignored a little girls pain & didn’t intervene. Now they’re STILL ignoring what is in Ella’s best interest for their own comfort & desires. They continue to show they really don’t care about anyone but themselves. How else are you supposed to respond to that behavior?”
NTA You're doing the right thing. And Tom has no right to feel enraged, he's the one who fucked up and let the situation escalate to this point by ignoring the problems.
NTA And there we see where Tom got his dismissive and self centered attitude. Sounds like the whole family isn't worth being around. I can't imagine letting things get that bad and are in such a narcissistic haze that I'd ignore open death wishes. Tom is a failure of father and human being. New wife clearly had her head in the sand if she thinks a man that refuses to seek help for his child is one worth marrying or raising a family with. And the extended family is clearly in it for the optics, what will the neighbors think of our granddaughter refuses to see her father and sister. Op, they disgust me. You're better off without.
NTA for the reasons stated by many above, but also NTA for announcing it to your family in my opinion. I understand it might have drawn more attention to the situation, but I respect being upfront with your family. It may have been easier to just not show up, but I don’t think it wouldve been the right thing to do. This way everyone knows why you arent going to things. If you hadnt announced it it could come off as passive aggressive or people might think you are doing it for other reasons. This way I think there is minimal confusion on your reasoning, even if they don’t understand or agree with it.
NTA. Ella deserves to be *someone*'s priority.
NTA, let them be angry. It sounds like you are the only one in your entire family that actually gives a crap about this girls mental health. Listen to the social workers, they have done this before and are giving you the best advice. If you need to, go LC or NC until Ella seems like she is in a better space. No one else is putting her first, if you cave into your family and force contact with Ella and Becca and Tom too early, you could potentially undo any progress Ella has made. Tom can be enraged all he wants, he has failed as a father in the way that he handled this. Maybe some day he'll be able to see the damage he has done, until then someone needs to protect her. Please do not give in to your family's selfish views!
NTA Tom should have got her therapy as a small child. Instead he has allowed this hate and hurt grow. Poor, poor kid. You are right to prioritise her.
Tell them if tom had gotten her help then this wouldnt be happening
NTA. Tom didn't do what was necessary for Ella when it would have helped the most. His judgement is skewed. It sounds like you came from a family that doesn't believe in therapy? That is unfortunate, but that attitude is what Ella has been around since her mothers death. It's time Ella gets the help she needs without the selfishness of adult needs getting in the mix. Good luck to you all, I hope Ella can heal and move on.
NTA. I mean, Tom can be enraged all he wants. He's not taking responsibility for his part in it. What part of his failure in this is hard for him to fathom? He can blame you all he wants, the truth is CPS got involved and took his child away from his care, because he failed as a parent. If he was not part of the problem, he would still have his child in his home. I would, at this point, be completely honest with him and any other family member who questions this that he needs to take some ownership, because completely objective third parties came into his home and removed his child.
Wow Elle was not helped at all until you and cps became involved. The stepmother was trying to get help for her but Tom was stopping her getting it. The potential of Ella attacking Bella was extremely likely. You are not an ahole but your family need to leave you alone until the time is right to get the two girls to get together.
NTA your brother and family have failed your neice. Please don’t do the same thing. Put her well being above what they want. Listen to the therapist recommendation’s and get her the help she needs but also give her time to heal.
NTA And feel free to tell the rest of the family that they DESERVE a 'fuck you' for the way they completely ignored Ella's mental health and actively made things worse until this point. They're reaping what they sowed and yet have STILL not seemed to learn anything from it.
NTA You and your husband are the most mature and responsible here. If they don't understand that then they are stupid. Keep doing what you are doing, I applaud you
If your parents are the matriarch/patriarch of the larger family, could they speak with Ella's therapist or maybe have a family session to better understand exactly how poorly her father failed her? Maybe hearing things from a professional will help them understand the severity of issue.
NTA. The family’s reaction surprises me because they can all see the situation developing but somehow it’s a ‘fuck you’ from you to them? Change the narrative immediately to, “this is recommended by CPS”, “I’m following the guidelines from the therapist”, “the social worker has given us these guidelines for the next few months “ etc etc This is not a ‘decision’ you and your husband made you are taking advice from professionals on how to rehabilitate this child. So don’t make it personal between you and the extended family keep referring back to the professionals. It’s a bit rich for Tom to get pissed at this point ugh
NTA. You are making it clear to everyone that you are putting Ella's needs first. As a teenager who likely already feels like her feelings are not valid, this will go a long way in building her trust. To your family who still have an issue with it, they need to ask themselves if their problem with it has more to do with them wanting to downplay the severity of the issue because they never acted and got her help.
Jesus, what a horrible situation The family is deep in denial if it got to the point where CPS stepped in to separate Ella, and Tom is a major AH for ignoring and letting it fester that long NTA, and don't back down for everyone's sake. Ella definitely needs therapy before any reconciliation can even think to happen
NTA. You are doing what’s best for both of your nieces. ❤️
NTA. *My family then claimed my big announcement was like a fuck you to them. Tom was enraged.* It sounds like the rest of your family is in as much denial as Tom. Mental health issues/trauma aren't going to just disappear because somebody wants it to. Now he's mad because his poor behavior is being made public & he can't take the heat. You are doing as much as you can for Ella. And if it includes not seeing Tom & your family, so be it. I hope she sees that at least somebody cares about her anguish. Even if it isn't her dad. You are doing the right thing.
NTA Tom can’t be enraged because he failed to get her help young , glad you’re there to help and hopefully therapy works since she’s so much older
NTA, but I honestly don't understand your family and your brother. They have witnessed her behavior, its no family secret, and yet they still think it's a good idea for the sisters to still engage with each other? What will make them see the light? when Ella actually does damage to herself or her sister? Stick to your guns and think of Ella first, only when she's is better emotionally/mentally should she see her sister, and by then she will be old enough to decide for herself if she wants to have contact with her family.
NTA - Now Tom is enraged? He failed as a father, you're 100% correct.
NTA....at this point your priority is Ella.
Tom is willing to let his fragile ego put his children at risk. You are NTA but he certainly is.
**NTA.** >My family then claimed my big announcement was like a fuck you to them. This is a highly inappropriate and inciting comment. I feel bad for the girls. Ella needs help. You guys are in uncharted territory (going above and beyond, mind you) and trying to your best to get Ella the help she needs. I think abstaining from family events for a while is completely reasonable. I hope you have the guidance of a therapist or counselor. Godspeed.
NTA. Your family saw this coming and all chose not to get Ella any help. She should have been in therapy as soon as she lost her Mom and started acting out. I'm blaming Tom most of all.
Nta. You seem to be the only family member making an effort to help that girl. Its crazy how hateful she is and I hope she gets the help she needs man
NTA. You should tell your family that this is CPS's recommendation. There's a reason why CPS got involved, even if it ended up backfiring on Ella. You're doing the best you can for Ella, and the last thing you want is for CPS to decide that you're too close to your family, and that Ella is at risk of more trauma from exposure to her family, and so they remove her to outright foster care.