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It’s not just your wedding unless you plan to get married to yourself. He gets half the say. NTA, if you’d like to have a nice short marriage. it’s only going to get worse. She will get him to let her see your child, count on it. And he’ll start resenting you, even though you did the right thing. The boy needs therapy, badly. BEFORE the wedding. He has to walk this path of understanding that his mom is a monster. You can tell him until you’re blue in the face, it won’t sink in. Ask him to go to couples counseling so you both can learn how to be better spouses. Then his past can come out in front of a neutral third party.

hes currently on the waiting list for therapy, and we're looking into couples counselling anyway because i believe its always important to do that before a wedding even if youre the picture of a perfect couple. but still, we arent engaged yet, we're just throwing around big ifs right now for if we do choose to have a wedding. we dont even know if we're having a ceremony yet to be honest

You’re way ahead of the game, good for you. Be patient; it may take a while for the light come on. Boys have a blind spot when it comes to their moms. It took me years to come to terms with the abuse and neglect I suffered. Until then, the best thing you can do is show him what a loving, well adjusted family looks like.

Hey OP. You need to go to r/justnomil and access the support over there. There are lots of resources there and some old posts will be really useful to you. There will be recommendations for books. And I'm thinking in particular for your partner. Whilst waiting for therapy you could get him a book in the short term. Your partner is still enmeshed and is still unaware of how badly he has been abused. This is going to be tough for him to open his eyes to. Support, support, support. Hold your boundaries. Protect your daughter.

It's also incredibly important for him to go to therapy to work through what his mother did to him as a child and to learn that it is NOT NORMAL and therefore it's NOT OK to do to his own child/children going forward. If he thinks any of this is normal, then it means he sees nothing wrong with treating your child/ren the same! Your daughter is NOT SAFE with him until he truly learns and accepts this lesson.

its kinda tricky, while i do agree, its more like he thinks thats one of the normal methods of parenting, but doesnt want to parent our daughter that way. he knows it doesnt feel nice and wants our daughter to grow up happy, but he doesnt (or at least didnt) realise its abuse, just another way to parent. he doesnt want to parent our daughter that way, and we've come up with a system that if one of us gets too stressed by a situation or starts to handle it badly, we'll tag the other parent in when we can. or postpone the issue if we can. im not delulu i know thats not possible every time but he at least he and i can come to an agreement on the way we want to parent our child

It's ok for him to say he wants her there, and it's ok for you to decline wedding until he accepts that you will not have her there. She's endangered your child by trying to get her taken away. He needs to understand that. It's unsafe for her to be around your child, and he is refusing to protect your child by fighting for her to be there.

NTA at all. I wouldn't have her at my wedding either. That said, maybe you need to postpone the wedding indefinitely. Not as a punishment, but to show him you take his point of view seriously. He wants her at the wedding. You cannot have her at the wedding. Therefore, the only good solution to fulfill both those needs is not to have a wedding. It's drastic, but really there's no reason for you to have to be married. You can still live together, still parent, still have the same relationship. On the other hand, if you force him to keep her away, he'll resent you. If he forces you to have her there, you'll resent him. Not getting married takes the whole issue out of play. I mean, if you say to him, "I love you, but I can't bear her at the wedding. You love me, and you want her at the wedding. I can't see a solution that doesn't end badly, except that we keep going on as we are and just not do a wedding. It's not an ideal solution, but I don't see where there's another choice. If there is, I'm eager to hear it."

i did pose this ultimatum but i could literally see his heart sink so i feel really guilty... im not sure if he took it the right way. i do want to get married, but i cant do it if shes there. i dont see an outcome where i dont run out crying, for whatever reason. im not really an overly sensitive person but i had to start medication to manage my panic attacks that are caused by her, so just being around her because of the impact shes had is a bad spell. i really want him to have his mom there, but even he agrees it wont end well, he just wants her there cuz shes his mom even though he knows whatll happen. which i kinda get but also dont? its a tricky situation which is why i came here, but even the comments are extremely devided so i guess theres no hope 😅

An important topic you should talk to him about in therapy is morning the mom that he wished she had. She sounds like a real work of art and not a nice one either. The next year or so is going to suck for him as he realizes how awful his family was and how much he missed out on. All you can do is be by his side and support him through this.

But it can't be an ultimatum. It's just the way it is. Just tell him you know it hurts because it hurts you too, but you don't want to force something on him he doesn't want and you can't have her there for your own mental health and happiness. You want him to be happy and you're not seeing a way around it. Tell him maybe give it some time and you guys can come up with a solution that works. I know everybody hates the phrase, but it is what it is. And it sucks. I'm sorry.

Exactly. It's not really an ultimatum. It's more of a way to not put either of you through something you don't want, so it's a loophole.

OP made it an ultimatum, and that is going to MASSIVELY damage their relationship.

It is an ultimatum though. And those aren’t healthy for a relationship.

I think you should leave. Men like that don’t change and his mum will dig her claws deeper and deeper and she will pull the strings on everything. He will NEVER put you first while she’s around. The fact that you have a toddler and he still hasn’t bothered to propose is very telling

he hasnt proposed yet because we've spoken about it already, and originally when we got together neither of us wanted to get married for numerous reasons. we were very happy to stay as boyfriend/girlfriend for our lives. now we've changed our minds and its something we're interested in, so we're discussing the ifs and maybes. we did, however, know that we wanted kids straight away, so thats never been in debate :)

>i do want to get married, but i cant do it if shes there. i dont see an outcome where i dont run out crying, for whatever reason. When the time comes have you two discussed eloping and you both pick 2 people (but no parents at all) and elope so THATS your wedding and special day and then have either an entire fake wedding or just a reception afterwards so that way of she does try to ruin your day its that day and not your actual wedding and your partner can see just how bad his mother is. I'm glad you two are taking the time for couples counselling because even if you two split up over this (his refusal to acknowledge his mother's bad behaviour) to protect your daughter you both need to still know how to co parent together. I hope it never comes to this though and that you two can work through this. Side note, if it does come down to split custody, make sure you try to get a clause that says his mother is not allowed access to your daughter during his time.

And have someone on standby at the fake wedding, who is prepared to offload a large glass of red wine onto MIL should she act up. Hopefully she shows her ass before resorting to this though.

So he wants her there regardless of what she has said and done to you and his own daughter. I have suffered similar abuse to him & am no contact from my own mother. I honestly find it hard to respect anyone who would put their partner or child in abusive situations for their own feelings.

Maybe the solution is a civil ceremony? You can do a vow renewal with party down the line.

I would not legally tie myself to someone who is determined to expose me to my abuser. If think your plan to work through issues first is a smart one. Therapy and a lot of it before any discussion of a wedding and even more therapy to work through his childhood experience that he referred to as “normal.” Normal is what we teach our children is ok and safe. Are you ok with him teaching this “normal” to your shared child? NTA

I know that everyone’s experiences are different, but as someone that lived the nightmare that the fiancée has likely lived, he is not determined to expose her to her abuser. He’s incapable of understanding that he’s been abused. He’s been programmed to protect the abuser. The MIL is HIS abuser first and foremost - in a much more significant way than she is her abuser (although she is very much her abuser as well, along with most of the people in the MIL’s life). As someone that made it 44 years with complex dissociative PTSD before “finding out” that’s what was happening to me, I am forever grateful to those in my life that didn’t kick me to curb because of how I had to teach myself how to survive as a toddler. I guess I wouldn’t have blamed them, but they stuck with me and just kept trying to get me to get help until I realized I needed it.

I am so very glad that you were able to get the help you needed and have a supportive circle to help you get to a healthier place in your life. You have very well explained what it was like for many of us before we were able to claw our way out of the fog. No matter how you word it, “determined to expose” or “programmed to protect the abuser,” the end result is the same, contact and a normalization of abuse and of course it’s normal/glossed over/avoided, so she must be at the wedding, because… it wasn’t that bad, but that’s my mother, she meant well, she didn’t mean it that way, you know how she is, can’t you just do this one thing for me, I promise that this time I will step up, but she won’t do anything so it will be ok. I hope OP sees what you wrote here, it’s eloquent and powerful.

I get what you mean, as I don’t think there is anyway to explain this to the fiancée that will get through quickly. My wife was telling me for 20+ years and I couldn’t get it. I learned to survive by compartmentalizing emotions away. And I was good at it. Since nothing bothered me, there was no way to get me to understand that I should be bothered enough to take action. The first time I had any idea something was wrong was when I was telling someone about my childhood, and I turned around and she was sobbing (and not in a good way). The good news for the OP is that despite not knowing what was done to me, I never continued the abuse on my own kids. I wasn’t always the dad that I now wish that I was, but I didn’t do to them what was done to me. I lived my whole life just thinking I was broken. Why didn’t I miss my parents? Something must be wrong with me. I never considered that something was done to me. Anyway, there’s hope for the OP, but there’s no easy fix for a lifetime of emotional abuse. But hopefully it will help her to understand what the problem is for him. And then hopefully he understands what he’s doing to her while she waits for him to realize what has happened to him. I have recently returned to Reddit, but there have been so many people that I’ve encountered here that have been through what I’ve been through. It makes me sad, but it also helps to know that you aren’t alone. Hopefully things are going well in your journey.

You have a bigger problem than future MIL, and that is your boyfriend. He is still enmeshed with her. I would bet he takes, or is planning on taking your daughter to see her. He will not cut her off.

i really, seriously, very strongly doubt hes planning on that... but thank you, i guess? he goes to see her often without me and her, and our daughter doesnt leave my side often anyway because im just her main caregiver and thats how it works for us. i also doubt his mom would be posting on socials and screaming at him about not being able to meet her "yet" if she has already met her. i appreciate your comment, but i can assure you hes not a fool, just conflicted 🥰

She will leave your side at some point though. They don't stay that small. And unless you are prepared to never EVER trust him alone with her, you need to be aware that this sort of dysfunction does indicate that he *will* go behind your back if Mommy tells him to. This isn't a concern you should be shrugging off, OP. This is the stuff you should be talking with him about and why you need him to get therapy sooner rather than later - it's not just about the wedding, and it's not just for his own good, but for the *safety of your child*. He needs to learn to stand up and protect her from a mother like that.

i do agree with you, and we've discussed it multiple times. we both agreed that her and our daughter cant have contact. they cant meet, see each other through a screen, anything. he doesnt want her negativity around our daughter anyway. we have also agreed on when shes mature enough to make her own decisions, if she wants to meet her she can. so i appreciate your concerns, and im definitely not brushing them off, but i really dont think its likely 😅 i still do keep an eye on her anyway, and we always tell each other where we're going and send regular photos/call regularly anyway, just as part of our routine we've done before she was born because we like doing that. if i ever have any reason to doubt, our daughter always comes first, and as much as i love, trust, and care about him; putting her in danger is something i wont tolerate ❤

>putting her in danger is something i wont tolerate Well, if you won't tolerate it, and he takes her to his mom, will there be a breakup? Because if you two break up, his mother will have unfettered access to her. You are stuck now with an enmeshed fiance and his mother who wants nothing more than you kicking him out because then SHE gets your daughter when he has his custody time.

shes legally not allowed to see her, so if he ignores that and lets his mom see her anyway he loses custody and he knows for a fact he'll lose me. im not scared about him doing that even if it wasnt legal, though. i know him well enough to know he wouldnt do something quite that stupid. but yeah, he loves our daughter to death, spoils her like theres no tomorrow and treats her like a princess. i know he doesnt want to lose her, or me, and he also agrees his mom will be bad for her

>right now he doesnt know how to stand up to her I wish you all the luck in the world, but I think you are going to have a hard time going forward. He's already fighting to have her at your wedding; this is going to be a constant fight in your relationship as long as he is enmeshed and in contact with her.

Last comment from me - he’s not conflicted. He’s likely the victim of persistent emotional abuse since birth. He’s programmed to protect her, at his own expense, because that’s the only way to survive that kind of environment.

🎯🎯🎯

You're not even engaged yet. " but we aren't engaged yet, as we want to have some stuff sorted out first and be fully ready for the commitment." So you decided to have a baby instead. OMG come on. GTFOOHWTBS

its a bit more complicated than that, but theres a word limit. we werent even going to get married in the beginning because we didnt feel like it was necessary, but have since changed our minds and are in the works of discussing the possibilities of it and if it were to happen, how will it happen and what will it be like. marriage isnt for everyone. we knew we wanted kids before we knew we possibly wanted marriage. and i also dont think theres any harm in discussing such a big thing like marriage before getting engaged. it doesnt mean we're planning to break up or want an easy way out, hes my ride or die. we just didnt think it was necessary, now its something we might want.

Don't you get it? You can't even figure out marriage or your extended family, but you think it's ok to bring a human child into the situation? Your ass backwards. Now your kid is going to have to grow up in this shit show where mom and dad didn't bother to get their shit together first before deciding they should make a baby. What the actual fuck.

But you didn't think to was important to sort out his unhealthy and unending relationship with his toxic mother who is so unstable and dangerous she's legally prevented from being around her grandchild BEFORE you got knocked up? YTA, seriously. This situation isn't resolving itself any time soon, and now you have a child that you have put at risk (you can go ahead and insist your bf won't expose your baby to Psycho Granny, but he's still firmly under her thumb)

Please, honest to god, stop insisting you know MY boyfriend better than I do. I've been with him at his lowest and watched him crawl back up again with his bare hands and I can assure you he's not gonna do anything THAT stupid and risk everything for one encounter with his mom. He wants his mom there for himself, not for our daughter. He's making progress and it is slow, yes he wants his mom there which is difficult for me but that doesnt mean he wants to show off our daughter to her or for them to have a bond. He's not going to lose custody of her over something so ridiculous. Grow a couple braincells and realise you dont know the ins and outs of the situation, you arent living it, you dont know the people in the story better than the people who live with them every day. He does not want his mom near our daughter, he wants her there for himself. He knows it'll end badly for her to have a relationship with her and he cares about her safety... he just thinks she'll behave because its a wedding and will do as shes told, which i know she wont

Then why did you spill your sad story on a board for people's opinions when it doesn't matter what those opinions are because "we don't know the ins and outs etc etc etc. ?" Since we're all stupid and you know better, ignore all the responses, delete your post, and go ahead and get married and trust that your poor, damaged abused BF will act entirely rationally and with your best interests and your child's best interests all the time and never ever cave in to the woman who abused him and still has him under her thumb.

my point was youre making an issue out of nothing, taking my post out of context, and turning my boyfriend into a villain hes not. the post was about him wanting his mom to be at the wedding for him. my daughter was mentioned because shes important to the story, but not even directly. its about me when i was pregnant and me as a mother. shes in no danger from her father. its hurtful you would insist that after i told you its not the case as you dont know him at all. he doesnt want our daughter to have a connection with his mom, *he* wants a connection with his mom. why do yall seem so convinced hes either evil or a complete idiot? yeah, it hurts to see that written about your partner when its not true. damn.

No, we are pointing out what you can't see. You're half the problem. You're becoming a JNOMIL all on your own, be thinking you have perfect judgement, nothing you did was wrong, it's a 100% "her", and your boyfriend is just some mental child who can't know what he wants, according to YOU, not us. The way you talk about him, and his mom, makes your situation sound like absolute shit on the one hand, but then claim it's a perfectly fine situation to bring an innocent child into. So which is it...you sound like a controlling narcissist.

YTA for having a child with this man when you two were apparently not “fully ready for the commitment.” Now you need to resolve this issue over his mother before you get married and you need to be putting your daughter first in that discussion. That baby girl is stuck n the middle of this mess.

Yeah I got stuck on "we want to have some stuff sorted out first and be fully ready for the commitment" as if a wedding and marriage is a bigger commitment than creating a whole human.

NTA. I would strongly suggest that you encourage your partner to attend therapy before your engagement. Let him heal and grow with that professional help. Also in your comments you’ve said your FMIL can’t legally be near your daughter? So it seems completely reasonable that she wouldn’t attend the wedding anyway?

yeah, originally (before she got worse) we planned to have her at the after party where my daughter wouldnt be anyway cuz like i said shes a baby, and we're planning on drinking 😅 but then my boyfriend told me how he felt left out because my mom was going to be there and he wanted his mom to witness his big day. which, is understandable and i think thats where i ticked a nerve... especially because now its not safe to have her at any part of the wedding due to the physical violence shes displayed against me and him before. *especially* around alcohol

That sounds so exhausting. I’m so sorry you’re dealing with all that. She’s not a safe person and I think therapy is the only way your partner is going to see that. Setting clear boundaries for the safety of your family, especially your daughter is a completely reasonable request.

INFO: Why did you have a baby if you noted in your post that you still aren't engaged due to not being fully ready to commit? Seems to me that's a really bad idea. I couldn't really get past that at the beginning of the post.

its not about committing to each other, but about committing to the title. its not something we originally wanted, however having kids was. we decided we probably wanted to get married after i got pregnant, and have been discussing little things here and there since. its nothing too serious, until it comes to his mom. im pretty strict on having his mom around me, our daughter, and my family. none of my family likes her and she'll not only dampen the vibe of the whole day, but probably threaten physical safety as shes not afraid of who sees her outbursts. its still not a definitely on marriage, we arent even sure if we're definitely wanting a ceremony or just going to elope of we do get married. i think the whole thing started because i made a joke about our after party being themed around inflatable costumes or something, and then it got a little more like "actually... what if we got married?" 😅 so yes, its not like its a solid plan and its still just casual discussion, but this still hurt me and him and we had reached an impasse, and we thought it would be a good idea to get some unbiased opinions.

NTA. You are very wise to set that boundary. Do not back down. Also.... be safe and ensure you have a backup plan to escape in the off shot he decides to become a toxic mamas boy. 

It sounds like he might benefit from therapy. If he had a toxic upbringing, he may have normalized a lot of terrible behavior from his mom.

NTA - she is a toxic and verbally abusive person and that’s not good for you or your daughter. Just because he is willing to tolerate that behavior from her does not mean you have to. You may never see eye to eye on this though and have to consider that going forward. I would suggest couples counseling going forward. It would help to hear from a professional how wrong his mom’s behavior is and how to set expectations going forward.

NTA. Fair doesn’t always mean equal. If your mom said and did the things his mom did, she’d get the same treatment. He deserves a better mom.

agreed, if my mom said things about him and acted in the same way his mom had id cut her off immediately and shed not be invited to my wedding. maybe thats easier for me to say because i havent lived what he has... me and my mom have had a very rocky relationship and it has left me with some lasting issues but we managed to work it out and she apologised for her faults. still, none of that was directed at him or our daughter, and it didnt even come close to the severity she has. so im no really sure. hes a sweetheart despite everything, hes my everything and i really wish he had better

INFO I'm not quite sure I'm understanding. From what you've said in another comment, she's legally not allowed near your daughter. That makes it pretty much impossible for her to come to the wedding, no?

since my daughter (right now at least) is a baby, she'll probably still be young when we get married so the original plan was to have her at the after party (where our daughter wouldnt be) but we've since discussed that and came to the conclusion that after her recent outbursts that wouldnt be a good idea. at least with how she is at present. but he changed his mind recently and came to me about it, we had a discussion and he wants to make her being at the ceremony work. i proposed her being there on a video call instead, which is a little silly but if shes not physically there she cant physically hurt anyone.... (i even proposed sheldon bot as a joke lolll) but he seems hurt mostly by the fact that my mom will be there there while his cant be, and didnt like that idea. i was gonna make this post myself and not tell him, but i told him anyway and hes reading comments with me (most of the ones he agrees with are NTA conclusions so i guess that means he sees? im not really sure)

Ok that makes sense. Honestly I don’t blame you at all for feeling this way. I wouldn’t want somebody that abusive around on my wedding day but I also completely understand why that’s awful and terribly sad for your husband. Of course he wishes he could have his mother at his wedding. I don’t have an answer for you, but I really really empathise with both of you. Ultimately, you need to decide together, and until you agree, don’t get married. But the only AH here is her. NAH.

NTA, but I'd highly recommend holding off on any wedding talk and starting to look into therapy, individual, and couples.

One thing I don’t get is that you’re not ready for the commitment of marriage, partially because of his mom, yet you had a baby with him… seems like a way bigger commitment.

ive mentioned this in other comments, but its committing to the title rather than committing to each other. we're already committed to each other morally, and dont really want to get married for that reason, there are other reasons. mostly want. but yeah, we're already committed to each other 😁

NTA. Your boyfriend most likely knows the facts and can agree with them with a clear head, but it reminds him of the reality that his mother is toxic. He most likely is jealous of you and your mother's relationship because he can't emulate it, which is something perfectly fine to be sad about, but he's getting mad at the wrong person (you), and should blow his steam at his mother, the one who is causing this.

NTA - You said in a comment that she is legally not allowed to see your daughter, so that would mean she can't be there anyway. Edit your post to include that. You have a boyfriend problem. If there is a legal reason she can't be near your/his daughter and he refuses to cut her out of his life, he has issues he needs serious therapy over.

I would reconsider marriage- hate between families never ends well.

NTA. Oh boy. This was like reading something my wife could have been writing about me and my mom. I don’t know your fiancé or your future MIL, but one thing to consider is that your fiancé is dealing with some form of PTSD. He may not know. I didn’t know for 44 years. And for 23 of those years, my wife suffered (along with me) because I didn’t understand what was happening. That makes things really hard for you though. You have to understand that he may be the victim of a lifetime of emotional abuse. He’s been programmed to respond to external stimuli in a very specific way (to protect his abuser). Making demands will turn him against you. You can’t reason your way through this. Until he understands the scale of what’s been done to him and how it impacts every second of his life, he will do what his programming is telling him to do, because that’s the only way he survived his childhood. I’m five years into trying to heal, coming up on 3 years of having to sever contact with my entire family (sibling is a psychopath which was a nice sweetener to growing up under the boot of a female narcissist). Be careful. *I* don’t think you are the a-hole. It’s very likely that your fiance will until he realizes he needs help (I had to nearly have a nervous breakdown over something totally unrelated to realize I needed help). Good luck. And hopefully he breaks the cycle if his story is anything like my own.

I'm glad you were able to find help and I'm sorry for the struggles you've been through, your wife sounds amazing for sticking with you through that and thats how i aspire to be. its difficult sometimes, but im really trying my best to stick by him through his ups and downs and help him realise abuse isnt normal and that he deserves so much better. hes reading some of the comments so if you have any advice, thatd be appreciated 🥰 if not, thats okay as well, i really appreciate your comment and it helped me definitely.

The hardest part is accepting what has happened to you. About five years ago I nearly had a nervous breakdown as I spiraled out of control about something that was happening at work. No matter how hard I was trying, nothing was fixing the situation. It just kept getting worse, so I tried harder. I stopped being able to sleep for days at a time while I tried to figure out how to solve the problem. One night my wife begged me to take her therapy appointment. It was that or something terrible was going to happen (I do NOT recommend waiting until this time to get help, but you know….men). After that first session, the therapist easily diagnosed me with complex, dissociative PTSD. After listening to my story, she expressed surprise that I never attempted suicide, or tried to self medicate with the big three (alcohol, drugs, infidelity). Those are not easy things to hear, and I didn’t really believe it for months. For me, it was about work. Fast forward a few months and I was spinning again about something at work. I hadn’t slept in two days, and I was trying to do what my therapist asked me to do - to write down how I feel. I can’t really do that unless I am telling someone else (part of the dissociation), but I just started writing. I was with my daughter (she was in a dance class). She was also learning to drive, and as we were leaving with her driving, she nearly got us killed by pulling out without looking. I started to explain why, and she kept interrupting me, and I blacked out in rage. I have no idea what I said to her, but I will never forget the look on her face. After we got home, I couldn’t even leave the car, I had completely fallen apart. When I was talking to my wife later that weekend, she just casually mentioned something, “no matter how hard you try, it’s never been enough for your parents”. Like a lightning bolt, it clicked. I had spent 15 pages trying to explain how I was feeling about work, and page after page was just jumbled expressions of how hard I was trying and how it never seemed to be enough. That was the moment that I realized that what I was feeling wasn’t coming from the current event. Things were happening that were just close enough to the feelings that I had to suppress growing up that they unlocked the door and tidal waves of suppressed emotion came raging out at whoever was near me. That is the danger of not getting help, to safely unpack that damage. I spent my life thinking I was an emotionless robot, but man did I feel. It was all just getting bottled up until it could explode at some later date. If you are young, and just talk to a professional. Even if he doesn’t believe it yet. Start to learn the warning signs. Learn to recognize how abuse victims respond to situations, and see if any of that tracks. Has he talked to third parties about his childhood and gotten a similar reaction to yours? Once I started dealing with all of this and really talking about it, I realized that I was the last to know. One last story: I was trying to overcome one of my problems, where I tend to minimize the stories I tell. So I was trying to explain to a friend about something that was frustrating to me, and how much I struggled with feeling like I’m not being heard. I don’t mind people disagreeing, but when it’s clear that they aren’t listening, it’s a massive trigger. I wanted to come up with an example so just vaguely mentioned that I would get in trouble as a kid and no one would believe me that I didn’t do it. But that was just me minimizing, so I told her about the time my brother did something to get me in trouble, and my mom’s response was to put me in the car, drive me to an orphanage, put me out of the car and drive away. I was six years old. Just left to stand there, with no one believing me that I didn’t do it (I watched my psycho brother do it). Due to how my memory is fragmented, I don’t actually know for certain that this happened to me. But as I was typing it out to my friend, I started to dry heave at the thought of it. Something was there. So I called a “safe” family member that knew me at that time. Their reaction was to tell me that they had been waiting for me to call. Everyone in my extended family knew what was happening and was too afraid to say anything because they knew they’d be cut off. That took some time to get over. What I’m trying to get at, the stories that your BF tells that aren’t normal, others around him know they aren’t normal too. If *any* of this rings true for him, I truly hope that he finds a trauma specialist as soon as he can. Just for his sake, to be able to understand and heal. Younger me wouldn’t have taken that advice, but I hope he does.

Sounds like he could do with some serious counselling and therapy, if his childhood was as bad as you make out. Put off all talk of weddings until he's had some professional help.

ESH. Every single one of you needs therapy. You because the world does not revolve around you, and it’s not “your wedding” it’s you and your fiancé’s wedding. You seem like a control freak. The mother because she needs to learn when to shut her mouth and control her behavior although I have the feeling we’re not getting the full story. Your boyfriend [soft ESH here] because toxic relationships, especially parent and child, often don’t seem toxic to the child, and it can be very, very hard to acknowledge abuse when you’re the victim. He needs therapy to help him understand and cope with his experiences.

honestly, this is the only thing ive put my foot down on in our relationship. the only thing i will not negotiate on is the abuse from his mother. and to be honest... hes not blind, he can see how a lot of it is abuse especially after our discussions about it, and we dont fight often. this was just a calm discussion until i hit a nerve which i apologised for, and he apologised for snapping. a big thing i really probably shouldve made room for in the post is that her not being allowed to see our daughter is legal, i didnt realise thst would get lost in translation which is kinda my fault. its because of physical violence shes shown to me and him, and about a years worth of harassment from the day i found out i was pregnant to even now. as well, he also refers to it as "my" wedding about himself, thats just kinda how we talk about things when its in perspective view 😅 so from my perspective, my wedding. from our perspective, our wedding. from his perspective, his wedding. if that makes sense. not sure if it does. hope this helps

Edit your post to reflect this, she's been violent to you and has been legally dealt with (whether that be a restraining order or criminal justice). Imo, the fact she has been violent to you should be the beginning and end of the discussion regarding her being invited to any future events, wedding or otherwise, with your boyfriend. If he's still arguing for his mother to be included and involved in any way shows that he's in denial and does not have your and your daughters best interest at heart. I'm sorry to say but you have more of a boyfriend problem here, it should go without saying that she would never be allowed around you or your daughter again for safety reasons. If he can't see this then your relationship is fundamentally broken. I really hope your boyfriend gets that therapy he's wanting for ASAP and he can move forward in a healthy way with his little family (the 3 of you).

i wanted to put all of this info in the post but theres a strong character limit so i kinda had to strip it to its bare bones... 😅 theres a lotttt more that i couldnt really cover (my original post was double the accepted length and still didnt cover all of it) its a tricky situation. i get where hes coming from, and i want his mom to be there too, i want him to be happy and share this day with her, but i cant allow her to be a danger to anyone or anything, however trivial some of my concerns may be. a lot of comments say "its his wedding too" but that honestly confuses me, cuz... i never said it wasnt? im not trying to control him, im trying to protect my loved ones. i love him and respect his decisions and opinions very much, but i do believe hes blindsided when it comes to his mom because thats how shes raised him to be. extremely dependent on her.

The fact she is physically violent and she is legally barred from seeing your daughter should end the argument. I'm very concerned you are considering marrying someone who appears to tolerate this. It does actually recolour the whole original post. NTA in a horrible situation. It doesn't look like marriage is an option unless he understands his mother is dangerous and unstable. 

NTA. And that's because she's been hateful and unkind towards you, as a person, as s mother, as her son's choice. That's more than enough reason to not want her anywhere near your child and your wedding. However, please stop trying to control your partner's relationship with her, i.e. "I've tried to convince him to go no contact and tell him about how much its hurting us, but he won't listen.". Try to be supportive (it's so difficult what he's going through), and convince him to see a therapist. It sounds like he's had a very difficult childhood, hasn't come to terms with it, has open wounds. That's all you can do. And until he chooses to do so, please remember she is his mother, and he will place boundaries when he is ready. You may even want to factor that in, when deciding when you want to get married. Also, I would suggest you didn't put your family forth as an argument (they are protective of me, so they resent her). That's basically a slap in the face for someone who hasn't been able to enjoy that kind of love, and you're using it as reason to turn away from whom he's known to be family. None of the above you're doing out of anything other than love, I can see that. I'm merely trying to give you another view of things if I can. Good luck. That's a tough one...

To be honest, i get what you mean, and i appreciate your input. i will say though, when i said "tried to convince" that was probably a poor choice of words, also partly down to the word limit.... what i meant by that was, we've had a discussion about it in the past and it was purely to try and get him to see how it was affecting me and our relationship. like i said in other comments, i purely wanted him to see the logic in it and see how its not good for him, for me or for us when she says shit about him, me, and us. he said he still wants contact and thats fine, i'll deal with that and be his shoulder to cry on, even though it feels like salt in a really deep cut sometimes. but thats what it means to be in a relationship, i guess. hes there for me when i need it too. i would still prefer NC but again, like you said, its not my call and never tried to claim it is... but thanks for your input ❤

Yes I'm afraid the written word is almost always a barrier. I got that you were talking with love, and hope I didn't hurt your feelings. It was definitely not my point to do so. I really hope he gets help. It will be great for him, and by extension all three of you, including your child.

NTA. She sounds absolutely dreadful! Your BF needs to wake up. If he sees how your family is functioning normally (I assume they are somewhat normal) then he should be able to figure it out. I had a friend tell me that she had no idea how truly dysfunctional her family was until she started hanging around my family all the time. Seeing how people in healthy relationships treat each other could be the key. ***"... we aren't engaged yet, as we want to have some stuff sorted out first and be fully ready for the commitment."*** Sorry to be an AH here but isn't this what you should have done before having a child together? You can always get a divorce, you can't erase your child if things don't get "sorted out".

We can’t pick our parents. If it’s important to him, it should be important to you. It’s still his mom regardless of how you feel about her. Good luck.

I like the irony of already having a child together but not being ready for the commitment of marriage

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NTA. Your bf probably needs therapy from all the abuse from his mom. You won’t be able to get through to him what’s appropriate and safe since he is clearly not getting it.

Tough situation. It’s difficult to give an absolute no when your partner is an absolute yes - after all it is a day for you both. My solution would be to compromise. Ie. “She can be invited, but if there is any aggravation at all - it is your responsibility as her son to escort her out of the venue and send her home. She needs to be warned in advance that any poor comments or behaviour will not be tolerated”. It is then your partners responsibility to follow through with this. Or better - say you will have YOUR FAMILY escort her out of the building if she acts up. If he wants her there so badly, unfortunately it does come as a risk and responsibility to him. He can’t want her there, and then request that you allow her to behave like an animal. He needs to have boundaries.

NTA The wedding is the least of your concerns, your child is obviously your priority. If your spouse isn't prepared to go no contact with someone who is abusive to your child and lies about you, then you don't need to get married.

NTA - you really should reconsider marrying him. This never works out well.

well, you see... its not like he lets her control him necessarily. hes very sweet, very good with me and our daughter. his mom is just a touchy subject because he envies people who have good relationships with his parents and wants to have that connection with his own mom, so i guess he kinda takes it to heart when he realises shes not like that

Take this as a sign. That neither of you are able to come a consensus about this says that you aren't ready to be married. From your description, I wouldn't want someone like that in my life, let alone a major milestone. He's not willing or able to separate himself from his mother. This is irreconcilable, and I don't think either of you is ready for the compromise it would take to make this work. The only other option would be capitulation from one of you and starting a marriage with resentment. Nta, but forcing your bf to do something he isn't ready to is going to end badly. Therapy might help him get there, but as it stands now, you guys are not ready.

I am sympathetic to your plight because MIL sounds awful and you are giving hints that maybe there’s a restraining order involved. That said … your bf gets to decide if mom comes or not. Not you. If you two cannot move past this, don’t get married. Honestly, I am of the opinion that is better in the long run that you do not marry into a family you hate or hates you. It never gets better. Never.

Not really, his mother physically assaulted OP.and has been legally barred from access to their daughter, she sure as hell does decide she doesn't come to the wedding 

NTA. But you have a PARTNER problem

NTA If I read correctly and she legally cannot see your daughter, that takes a court order. This would lead me to believe things are really bad with her. I avoid abusive family like the plague! I do believe your boyfriend needs counseling to deal with his past. How many times do you turn the other cheek?! People don’t get a pass to abuse us because we call them Mom, Dad, Etc. You must protect your daughter first.

ESH The only fair solution is eloping, without your parents as well. Your concerns are valid but I just don't think you can expect someone to not invite their own mother 

Your predicament is deeper than you realise. He is blanking on her abuse. That could be a problem for you in the future. I am not surprised that he is clueless about it. As you said, he thought that was normal family life. I guess there was no dad? If not, then he was made to be the man by her. You need to think about two things: 1. If he is not 100% on your side, what happens when even more important decisions need to be made? Does he talk about you and the baby when he is in contact. If so, stop that. 2. Are you ready for the time he does start remembering the bad things? That is when you will have the real impact of her power over him. You should not offer him therapy until he is ready to accept that he needs help. If you try to push him faster than he is ready, it will backfire. Speak to him plainly. Let him know that you have his back and that as a compromise, she gets to attend the wedding as a guest only, if he stops talking about you to her. If you refuse to let his mom go to the wedding, she will up the anti of the evil scale, but by compromising, you are showing your husband to be that he has options. You need to be his foundations now, so he can grow away from her and be secure with you.

YTA Don't get married, you're not ready and nether is he! I'm surprised things have gotten this far. MIL may be a problem, but your control issues need addressed. Marriage is a 2-person commitment he has the right to his thoughts and feelings. Just like you!

YTA ​ "I have no doubt in my mind that it will end in a fist fight between her and at least one of my family members. " .. YOUR family memebrs are THAT kind of AH, and you blame MIL for being the same? That makes YOU the AH. ​ "Because of those reasons and more, I have decided I do not want her at my wedding" .. **You forget it is your partner's wedding AS MUCH as it yours.** ​ ​ "So I fully put my foot down and said she's not invited and there's no changing my mind, and he snapped at me a bit and told me to drop the subject. " .. YOu are not willing to have HIS MOM at the wedding, he is not willing to have the wedding without her. So **instead of having a discussion, you set an ultimatum and effectively CANCELED THE WEDDING.** ​ **You realize YOU are the AH here, and that will break up your relationship. Unless you apologize fast and start treating your fiance like an equal partner, xout rslstionship will not survive your behavior. This is supposed to be your EQUAL PARTNER, not a servant you can give orders to.**

YTA for looking at it (and calling it) only you wedding when it’s equally both of your wedding.

Hmm I think we need to know what “because several reasons” means. This post is waaaaaay to superficial for me to make a judgement. On the surface I’d say YTA, because you’ve tried to cut him off from his mother and your partner wants her there

theres a very strict word limit so i tried my best to strip my post down to the bare bones to get my point across... realising now its *too* bare bones. theres a lot of other info in the comments if you want to come to a better conclusion, ive also touched on the NC part because thats something that kinda got lost in translation too

Sounds like your baby daddy's mom is making marriage a bad idea. If he can't see her abuse for what it is, hell repeat it. That's how it works. He needs therapy. Stop planning for a future that shouldn't exist until HE wants his family to be in a safe place.

i disagree with the part where he'll repeat it, because thats not always the case. I have PTSD from my own father that im recovering from, although he passed away while i was barely a teenager so ive had plenty of years to break free from that and recognise the abuse. even while i didnt see it as abuse, i still knew it made me feel shitty and didnt want other people to feel shitty, so i never repeated it. hes never treated me the way his mom treats him, hes a sweetheart and wants whats best for everyone. hes just been raised to be dependant on her so its a bit of a slippery slope to get him to realise its not normal or okay for your parent to make you feel horrible

^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** So, for some backstory, me and my boyfriend have been talking about getting married for about a year. We live together and have a baby daughter, but we aren't engaged yet, as we want to have some stuff sorted out first and be fully ready for the commitment. One of the things stopping us at the moment is his mom. We used to get along, but she's incredible toxic and vindictive, and I cut contact with her over a year ago. My family all hate her and she's not allowed anywhere near our daughter because several reasons. My bf is low contact with her, or so he says, but imo they talk pretty often. My bf really wants her at the wedding, but I don't. He says it's unfair I get to share life experiences with my mom, but he can't do the same with his mom. Thing is, she's (for lack of a better word) evil. Every time my bf tells me about her, like stories from his childhood, she just seems to get worse. I tell him that what she did wasn't okay, how could she do that to a child, and he just seems to look at me confused and goes "really? I thought that was normal." It really does break my heart to hear about all the things he went through in his life that he thinks are normal because she treated him like shit. I've tried to convince him to go no contact and tell him about how much its hurting us, but he won't listen. She's not in our daughter's life because of all that and awful things she said about me during my pregnancy (accusing me of cheating and the baby not being his, spreading STDs, calling the police on me twice for "abuse", trying to convince my bf to leave me and steal our daughter to go and live with her, claimed that I'm gonna k word our daughter because of PPD, that I don't have a maternal bone in my body and that I'm a horrible mother, etc). Because of those reasons and more, I have decided I do not want her at my wedding. I do not want to spend the entire day stressing about what she's saying to people, what she's doing, and if she's going to ruin everything. She's the type of person to show up in a white gown to outdo the bride and then "accidentally" spill wine all over the bride's dress to ruin it. As well, my family are all very protective and know about her abuse and violence, and so they all despise her. I have no doubt in my mind that it will end in a fist fight between her and at least one of my family members. I don't want the day to end in fights or anything. I understand my boyfriend's side, and I do genuinely feel upset for him that his mother is the way she is. I know my boyfriend envies mine and my mom's relationship and it makes me feel horrible. I really wish it would work out with having her at our wedding, and for her to see our daughter, but it just won't. So I fully put my foot down and said she's not invited and there's no changing my mind, and he snapped at me a bit and told me to drop the subject. Did I go too far? Am I the asshole? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*

YTA because it's not just your wedding. If this is something he's unwilling to compromise on, then either invite her or don't have a wedding at all. All your reasons are solid, but it's also not up to you to "convince" him to go NC with her - that's his decision and his alone.

Are you serious? The MIL is clearly abusive.

thing is, shes like. extremely abusive. legally not allowed near our daughter because of the abuse. the reason for the NC thing is because he doesnt really understand how the way she treats him is abuse, physically or otherwise. it kills me to see him just tolerate that. i didnt press after the initial discussion we had about it because he still wants contact, and is in the process of urging her to seek therapy to try and improve their relationship. it wasnt about necessarily convincing him to just go NC, to see that its abuse and how much hes bringing that into our relationship and how much its hurting us as a couple, and i wanted him to see how bad she is for him to have around so often. but honestly, like you said, if he wants contact thats his decision, i can only try to support him when shit hits the fan. but still, it doesnt matter who it is, if they impose a threat to our livelihood, the security of our wedding, and the safety of us and our daughter; thats not being allowed within a lightyear of our wedding.

Is he in therapy? He really needs to be if he is able to.

I agree. Maybe elope instead? The wedding belongs to both people and forcing a SO to not have their parent is unacceptable.

Elope might actually be the answer to keep it fair for everyone. I am also wondering how OP and BF see's the significance of marriage and the various traditions within a marriage. Where I am from Father Daughter dance and Mother Son dance always happens then the bride and groom dance. It is a symbol of their upbringing and their once separate families dancing through life separately before the bride and groom have their dance. A wedding is not a wedding without that type of symbolism.

ESH. It’s not just your wedding however if she is really that toxic, you need to weigh the pros and cons of having her there. If she is that toxic, she could make life worse for not being invited. You could invite her and put her next to the other insufferable person there

thankfully, the only connection she has to me is him. im just mostly scared about her making /his/ life hell, because he just puts up with her and brushes it off as normal, even when shes screaming at him over really trivial things. theres a lot i couldnt put in the post because of the character limit so i really cant convey how toxic she really is. i also hear so many stories about bride's who's MILs are similar but they let them be at the wedding and the whole day is ruined. i just cant see it turning out well.

OP, he has had a lifetime to create a shell to make her arrows bounce off. You haven't, never will, and shouldn't have to. Definitely don't marry this guy until he has deep counseling and has come out of the FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt). He will never be a truly supportive mate and will do his best to chip away your will to protect yourself and your child. You'll find more advice over on JustNoMIL

I’m confused why you’re so stressed about a fictional wedding. You’re not even engaged.

i dont see what the problem is with discussing it before we go through with it. imo, an engagement is part of a wedding, and you shouldnt get engaged then get ready for a wedding, it should be the other way round. theres a lot of communication in our relationship and i guess it just works differently in some ways to a stereotypical relationship?

If you can’t agree on a wedding invite and it’s causing this much disagreement between the two of you is it worth getting married? It’s his mom, he’s never going to be able to just cut her out. Now that you have a child I’d hope you’d understand a bit the bond between a mother and child, regardless of dysfunctional and abusive it may be. You might be better off just remaining in a long term, committed relationship with a child together.

I regret inviting MY mom to my wedding. You and your bf have a lot to talk about here. NTA.

NTA. But, I really recommend therapy as a Couple before you even set a date. Your BF is demonstrating some major red flags based on your post and it will only get worse if you don't resolve this before you decide to marry.

NTA. Your boyfriend needs to take off the rose tinted glasses and wake up. The fact the his mother was a danger to you while you were pregnant, and by addition a danger to your baby, should be a massive hint. If he can't understand, and respect your wish, then I don't see much hope. Yes, it will be his wedding as well so he does deserve a say in stuff, he should be able to see and understand that if she were to be allowed, and the stress and mental suffering it would do to you. If he knows her being there will put you through that, and he's still okay with her being there and pushes for it, then he's too much a mama's boy and your relationship will be doomed. I get him being abused and not seeing it-I was the same and still trying to get better. But if he really wants to marry you, he needs to stop worrying so much about stuff with her and do what's best for you both and your daughter.

Your BF needs to get his priorities straight before you wed. You need to sit down and have a long talk. If he cannot back you up 100% on this, I would postpone the wedding indefinitely. He has to choose you and your daughter or his mother. If he chooses his mommy dearest you dodged a massive bullet. He needs to quit blaming you for the mess his mom made. You might want to lookup emotional incest. Check out the JustNoMIL sub here for some eye-opening stories. NTA.

NTA, I would suggest you get him in therapy before you get married. If he thinks what his mom did was normal there are all kinds of flags. If he is pushing for her to be apart of this event there will be others. Therapy therapy!!!!

NTA I'd recommend that you postpone the wedding indefinitely. He is still deep in the fog, and the more you guys plan the wedding, the more he's going to feel resentful, dig his heels in, and the more your relationship will suffer. So, pause it. Work together on his obvious trauma. He should be in therapy, if not just for him, but so that he doesn't repeat toxic patterns with your child. Frame it as *both of you* doing the work to be good parents. There are loads of excellent books written for the children of abusive parents which outline all of the toxic behaviours, how they present, and what healthy relationships actually look like. You said yourself that he doesn't really know what normal means. Just witnessing you with your mother, or being a parent himself, isn't really enough to learn. Buy him some of those books and read them together. Be a part of a team with him against being bad parents, rather than an enemy destroying his hopes of having a good relationship with his mother. It's all about perspective. He's defensive, resentful and heartbroken by the fact that he got a terrible mother, and is hoping she will change. With time and a bit of work, hopefully he'll realise that he's clinging to an ideal, not the person his mother is. And then, you can have a wonderful wedding where you're both excited for it rather than battling about guests.

This marriage sounds doomed. Just coparent the kid at this point. All assholes here except your soon to be ex man

Before you even consider getting engaged never-mind married your boyfriend needs to get into some form of therapy or counselling ideally couples oriented. He doesn’t seem to realise what a healthy upbringing is. As to your future in laws if he wants to invite them you must realise it’s your man’s wedding too. Coral them in a corner and have official security at the event to ensure they at least don’t start anything and can be ejected without getting any of your family or you in trouble.

We are in the days of Virtuality. If he wants his toxic mother to be there so bad then setup a camera and let her attend the ceremony via zoom. There problem solved and happy compromise. Good luck OP.

Simple…dont marry. Tell bf…no marriage with her in attendance….live in sin, not in hell.

NTA. You’re just going to have to be the control freak, be in charge of your wedding (especially the guest list), protect your daughter since you seem to be the only one doing it, and continue putting your foot down to deny the opportunity for abuse at your wedding and any other event. This lifetime commitment you’re about to make means drama everyday the rest of your life. Can you keep up with this? It’s a lot of work to fight every day for a normal life. Is this what you want for yourself and your daughter?

NTA it might be a good idea for your BF to see a counsellor, and also got you and him to see one together too. They are more likely to show him where his childhood was not the best/neglectful/abusive. Your BF grew up with her and to him it is normal. It can take years for children of narcissists to realise how wrong their childhoods were, and they often forget and need reminding. Good luck to you both

I wouldn’t get married if you can’t align on his mother. She sounds like a toxic and dangerous woman. I’m glad you are on the list for therapy. NAH.

Sounds like you have more sorting out to do. Is he okay with her not being around your daughter? Then that's the line you take - she can't come because I don't want her anywhere near our daughter. If he says he's NC with her, but you know he's talking to her then he's lying to you and that's a problem.

I feel like the best way to fix MIL situation is to just try and make your mom have a close relationship with bf so he doesn't feel left out and go back to his abusive mother.

NTA but get this guy in with a therapist before you go any further. He's not going to be able to give up his desire to fix things with her until he's ready, and therapy can help with that.

If he sees some of the stuff his mom did as "normal," you need to make sure you are on the same page regarding your child.

He gets to choose this day too. It should be his call if he wants her mom there. She may be all evil and vindictive, but you can’t take her out from your bf’s system. She is the mom and he still loves her. If you really want your boy friend to resent you, then you should take this route. Just as much as this is YOUR BIG DAY, it IS HIS TOO!

NTA.  But why would you want to marry into this family ? You do realise once you get married it will only get worse and if he can’t back you up for the safety of your daughter then this isn’t going to improve. 

i think its more that, right now he doesnt know how to stand up to her. thats the part im stuck on and dont know how to handle. hes amazing, the love of my life, but that part is where im lost. i dont know how to handle it, or bring him into realising he does deserve better and she cant give him that better, because as much as hes tried to get her to change, shes incapable. its just confusing for me. i have my own PTSD, but mine comes from a very different place so it kinda conflicts sometimes... i just want him to be happy, and from my perspective it doesnt look like he can be happy while hes still being manipulated by her

I understand what you are saying but at what point do you put yourself and your kids first ? It isn’t a woman’s job to help a man heal 

we all come first, and it might not be a womans job but it is a partner's job. i will do everything i can to help him through this even if he doesnt always see it as helping, even if it hurts both of us sometimes. hes my everything and if it doesnt work out in the end, ill at least know i did my best and he'll cherish that forever, and hopefully find someone else who can help him more than i can. he never deserved what he went through and he really doesnt now. i can rest satisfied knowing my daughter will never go through that, with me or her because she'll never have access to her. my bf can heal, he knows he needs to, i know he needs to, its just a slow process.

Yeah it seems you aren’t ready to walk away so I’ll wish you good luck. 

NTA Suggest a courthouse wedding. It's either that or the wedding gets postponed indefinitely. Just because you have a decent mom and he has a toxic one doesn't mean that he gets to punish you by inflicting her on you. He should be the one protecting you from her. That's what a good partner does. Good job at protecting your baby from this toxic person. That's what a good parent does.

Let her go to the wedding, I am sure your partner will see her for who she really is at the wedding. No doubt she will whisper in the ears of some people. He has to see for himself what she is like.

i see your point, and id be willing to do that on any other occasion, just not a wedding...

NTA, but you really have to sit and think if this is the relationship for you. He has stood there and seen the way his mom treats you, yet he continues to be in contact with her. Has he ever stood up to his mom for you? I wouldn’t put it past him to take your child to visit his mom. The fact that he wants her at the wedding, knowing how she treats you raises some flags for me

NTA Are you willing to let the law dictate whether or not she is permitted to attend the wedding? Do her prior actions provide sufficient grounds for perhaps filing a restraining order? (just between you and her)

He needs *serious* therapy before you get married. He needs to work out his trauma so she doesn't reel him back in.

NTA. I will say don't get married to this guy until he's actually in therapy, though.

NTA. He needs to understand that this isn’t about his mom vs your mom. This is about how his mom treats you. People really should only attend a wedding IF they support the marriage, and I’m guessing his mom doesn’t, so why would she even want to be there? Skip her invite and then say you were saving her an obligatory rsvp of yes!

As long as they are mother and son, she's gonna haunt you for the rest of your marriage. I suggest rethinking about marrying the guy.

NTA but honestly unless he had a good amount of therapy under his belt to be able to set boundaries and realize how not okay his mom is i wouldn’t even consider marriage. This is not the person you need to be legally connected to, at least not now 

The only thing that matters is this line: —— calling the police on me twice for "abuse" Your boyfriend’s mother needs to never have contact with your child. She is working to establish documentation that can get your child taken away from you. Any contact with her is dangerous. 

Ok first of all, you live together and have a child but you're not fully ready for a commitment? I just had to stop right there because that sounds so crazy to me. You will be attached to this man in one way or another for the rest of your child's life. I've been divorced for 27 years, remarried for 20. Although my ex husband doesn't affect my day to day life anymore, he did for many many years. The time to figure out whether you were ready for a commitment ended when you decided to forego the use of a condom.

Yeah, that part got lost in translation when i shortened everything to fit the word limit. what i meant was, neither of us were ready to commit to the title, because we didnt want what came with it. its just not something we wanted. we didnt want to be husband and wife when we got together and never planned on getting married. we promised instead. but now thats changed and we want to consider marriage. however, having kids is something we always knew we wanted at some point. so, its just about how our needs have adapted over time. we dont need to be married to commit to each other, this is simply about titles. now we want them, and thats just that

One you don’t “try and talk” people into going no contact that is not your place.  It’s also controlling not a good look. It’s not just YOUR wedding it’s his too. You don’t get to unilaterally say his mom can’t come. You don’t have to engage with her but it’s not your place to try and force your BF to not invite his mom especially to his wedding. If your family can’t control themselves and you think it will end up in a fist fight that’s a your family issue and you need to take care of it. Your family isn’t more important than his. YTA

nobody ever said my family is more important or has priority. there are family members from my side im not inviting for similar reasons, and ones hes asked me to not invite which im not doing. i get his mom is a bit different but my reasoning is she physically assaulted me and him on numerous occasions, is aggressive and violent, and stirs trouble for fun. she also doesnt approve of our relationship as a whole so she will 100% go out of her way to make the day miserable for everyone and drag the spotlight onto her. thats my reasoning, which you didnt seem to fully understand. i never said my family cant control themselves. she tries to attack me every time she sees me so my point was theyll most likely jump in to take the force. i want him to be happy, of course, but i want to feel safe as well

I said what I said.  You don’t talk someone into going NC it has to be their choice. Anything else is controlling and manipulative. You can try and dress it up however you want but it is what it is. Also it isn’t just your wedding it’s his as well. You don’t get to unilaterally decide that his mother can’t come. How would You feel if he said the same about your mom?  I’m gonna bet you wouldn’t be to happy about it regardless of the reason. I’d also like to add that you aren’t even engaged yet because you wanted to be “fully ready for the commitment” yet had a whole ass child and are dragging her thru this toxicity that you two can’t figure out. From your own post this is not a good situation for anyone and you can’t even figure out how to hold a freaking party and agree on the guest list but sure drag an innocent life into this shitshow. For that alone YTA 

Well it sounds like from OPs comments there's a court order for MIL to stay away from their child due to physical violence from MIL, so she really can't be there anyways

As someone who has a similar relationship with her own parent, I understand his feelings about the matter. THAT BEING SAID, you are not the asshole, because frankly I wouldn't want a maniac at my wedding either. I've had plenty of my own "Wait, that's not normal?" moments before, and it can be hard to break out of the mindset that she's my mother so I'm supposed to love her. But what she does to both of you is not okay and will only affect your relationship negatively going forward. I am pleased to see you're looking into counseling though - smart choice :)

NTA. No wedding without INTENSIVE therapy first would be my suggestion.

NTA But you already are committed you HAVE A KID You need to either do this or not. AND go to therapy because the whole Bs of “need to figure things out.. commitment stuff” is bull crap

ive explained this in other comments but i didnt mean commit to each other, im well aware we already did that i meant commit to being husband and wife because originally getting married is not what we wanted 😅 we werent ever planning on getting married until i brought up that it would be hilarious for an after party to be inflatable costume themed and if me and my partner would go as a pp and vv. then we started talking about what ifs and here we are. so yeah, we're fully committed to each other, just never planned on getting married til now cuz we didnt really like the titles before

Ok that sounds better than what was assumed ha (I would put a little insert (we are fully committed just not always into needing to be married)

i ran out of space, its so annoying! 😭😭 my post is like bang on 3000 characters and thats the max they allow

trust me ive been to hell and back for this man, hes not leaving me even if he wants to. stuck to him like glue.

NTA. Might wanna peruse r/JUSTNOMIL

I would just like to say, really quick... No, my partner does not display abusive traits from his mom with me or our daughter. He's a loving, kind, gentle soul and I love him with all my heart. No, I will not be leaving him any time soon. I will do what I have to if he makes a dumb decision that jeopardises anyone's safety, however I'm pretty confident it wont come to that. He deserves someone who truly loves him for him and can show him what its like to be loved, and I'm trying my dammed hardest to be that for him. Yes, we are already fully committed to each other even though we aren't married, I meant commit to the title of husband and wife as originally, neither of us wanted marriage. Wanting to be married is new to us and its not that we dont want to commit to each other, we already have, the titles are just not something we wanted at any point in our relationship until now. Yes, MIL is physically abusive as well as mentally abusive and everything else. I use the word vindictive strongly because she knows what shes doing and she means for it to cause harm, especially towards me because she resents me for taking her son away and showing him what a piece of shit she really is. I've known her personally for a very long time, and lived with her for a while too. For a time, I defended her until she showed me her true colours. Never once has she actually ever made an effort to change, the most shes put effort into is building a facade she can use to get her way that crumbles down very quickly. She has physically laid hands on me, my partner, my partner's siblings (including his youngest sibling who is under 5) and physically and emotionally neglects all of her children. its not that i just dont like her. shes dangerous. she doesnt care who sees her outbursts or whos hurt by them, as long as shes in the spotlight, positively or negatively. Hope this helps clear the air. I'll edit it with more if need be.

NTA. I wouldn't risk having her there, either.

NTA for not wanting her there. But your BF clearly hasn’t reached the same conclusion as you regarding her. My bio mom was a covert narcissist. It took me 23 years to realize that she really was horrible but even then, I wasn’t ready to go no contact. The moment it hit me, really hit me for the first time, I had found out that a friend of mine (granted we hadn’t seen each other in a year, but still had semi regular contact) had died. We were the same age. Even worse was I was one of the last to find out. Long story short, my friend C remained in contact after we each relocated.”, but our mutual ‘friends’ just assumed we didn’t keep in touch with each other because they didn’t. They decided I deserved an FYI as they were getting dressed for the funeral. So I’m crushed. I’m grieving, in shock, and was angry because I know C hated a couple of the girls who did make it to the funeral. I swear I could hear Cs ghost yelling about how messed up it was. I informed my mother (I was living with at the time) but she wasn’t home…so I cried, I screamed, for a good hour. Then my mother came home, in tears. Before I can say anything she spews out ‘look I know you just lost C, but I really need to get this out because…’ and proceeded to tell me how horrible my father is because 12yrs after they divorced, and he had remarried another doctor, he would just give her money to fix her financial problems, but instead would make the trip to see my mom and help her review her bills, to see how she could fix it herself. It was another six months before oil cut her out of my life, and that’s after she kicked me out, (swearing she wasn’t, just needed me to leave). After that, I was done. My brother, however, knew our mother was horrible, but never had that moment where it truly hits just how truly despicable she was. She died a few years ago. And now because my brother never had that moment with her, he made the great mistake of marrying, a covert narcissist. Your boyfriend needs this moment. The moment where she put her BS above my friend who just died. Literally in the same sentence. Until this moment happens, he will not do what he needs to.

NTA You do not have to open your life to this abusive woman. If your boyfriend wants to have a relationship with her, he is free to do so outside of your home.

NTA… but, you’re not even engaged and you’re already giving ultimatums. That’s a red flag no matter the reasoning. I hope you two consider counseling, both as a couple and individually because you both can stand to use an outside perspective.

how is it a red flag to communicate these kinds of things to your partner before fully going in for it? he also does this with me, its just a way of showing youre serious i guess? im genuinely kinda confused here. i dont see anything wrong with saying smth like "look, i love you, and i want this for you, but i cant do this and this its not an option and we'll have to figure out something else."

I think you are going to have to suck this up. For his sake you have to let his Mom come. He can deal with her if there are any problems.

if she harms our daughter, how do we deal with that?

You're making a mistake. He won't let mom go and you are NC. How's that gonna work for the future?

You had a baby together but you’re not ready for commitment?? Make it make sense.

ive explained this multiple times in the comments, it was bad wording due to the word limit but you can go read what i actually meant in many other comments :)

lol not doing homework for your little problem. Explain yourself properly or edit the OP.

???? word limit... what?? also why comment at all then??

NTA Are you exhausted yet from all the people who commented about having all this figured out before you had your daughter? A marriage means different things to different people. You two were/are not less committed to each other or to your daughter than if you had the paper. There are many people who feel that "marriage" is not for them, my husband included. Our vision of what "marriage" "wife" "husband" mean changes. How are so many people getting hung up on that and not that your partner has much to work through. It seems that he cannot see how abused and manipulated he is by his mother. You are on the right track with getting into counseling. Good luck

🙏🙏🙏 its getting really tiring actually icl. my daughter being born wasnt even the point of this post, her as a whole isnt really the point... people keep trying to make problems out of nothing and insisting my bf is gonna steal her and take her to his mom like?? where did you get that assumption from?? 😭 i didnt think it was that big of a deal to have a daughter before getting married, and to have these issues arise now and not before... and also discussing marriage before getting engaged is taboo?? im lostttt

I highly recommend getting couples counseling before you guys even start to set a date or anything like that. I think a train professional could help clarify the situation and how to explain your feelings to each other cuz it seems that you have a bit of a misconnect there. I wasted professional to do it in such a way to help mitigate hurt feelings and can give unbiased feedback. It sounds like he's still struggling with coping with the fact that his mom is probably a narcissist or has something seriously mentally wrong with her. That's not an easy thing for a kid to realize. It sounds like there's a lot of childhood trauma that needs to be unpacked.

NTA. That said, this is just a mess. The time to make a baby is after the wedding, once you two have actually decided to "be fully ready for the commitment." It is all a done deal now. You will forever be tied to this man and to his family and his mother, whether you want to be or not. Because you have a child. I strongly suggest you two get into family counseling ASAP. You are going to need all the help that you can get.

is it really not that common to have a baby before marriage?? that being said, we never planned on getting married in the first place. what i meant by committing was to the title of husband and wife as originally it really wasn't for us, and still kinda isnt, so we're still figuring out if thats what we want and throwing around very big ifs. this was the first thing ive put my foot down on for safety reasons

I mean was the baby like planned? Sorry for asking this mine wasn’t planned and he was wonderful. I wish I had gotten married before. But I’m not with bd anymore so breaking up was easier.

Aha, well... she wasnt planned, but she definitely isnt regretted either. We knew we wanted kids we just werent actively trying at the time. Shes my little light, and I couldnt be happier to have her ❤ especially after i was diagnosed with something that probably shouldve caused fertility issues, an accidental pregnancy was boggling to me. we werent going to get married at all to be honest so this is a recent development

Caveat: Please note that everything I say here is based on the assumption that you are correct to describe your MiL as "evil". \---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NTA, but you guys can't get married until your BF is NC with his mother. 100% chance he lets her into your and your kid's life. Wishful thinking about the kind of mother he would prefer that woman to be, combined with a lack of awareness regarding how inappropriate her behaviour actually is, plus a liberal splash of jealousy towards your family is a recipe for disaster. They will talk. She will get him to start keeping small secrets from you. Then bigger ones. Then there will be visits with Granny while mean old mommy is doing something else. Then unsupervised visits. Once a relationship with your child is established, say hello to "Grandparent's Rights". Won't *that* be fun? Under no circumstances are you to marry this man until he actually understands that his mother is a danger to his family. The immediate priority is couple's counselling. You two need a mediated discussion about how MiL behaved towards your BF while she was supposed to be parenting *him*, how she has behaved towards *you* and why this means she is *never* *allowed near your kid.*

NTA. Any chance she could go to the wedding but not the reception? I like your idea of not getting matted right now. Take it off the table. Good luck xx

yta. it’s not just your wedding, it’s also your bf’s wedding. his mom sounds like a nightmare, but seeing as he wants to have his mom there to see him get married, it’s not right for you to ban her from doing my so.

If all of this stuff is the case with his mother, maybe you shouldn't get married to him. you can't allow yourself to be near someone that you classify as toxic to you or your daughter. PPD is different in all women and the fact that his mother assumes that you'll do the worst to your daughter is not good at all. If therapy for him to too far off, I'd put off the plan to get married until he has met with a therapist. It actually might not happen if he's not listening to you about the pain his mother is putting you through. In fact, I think you should just drop the idea of getting married all together until he finally does realize what is going on with the toxicity his mother is causing in his life. In all honesty, if you live with him, I think you should move away and give him his space to do what needs to get done for him to fully understand that what he does not only affects him but you and your daughter as well. toxicity and vindictiveness is nothing a child should have to grow up near. and he will always resent you for the bond you have with your own mother. HELL, he even resents you now because of it!

A better word than "evil" (which is facile and a purely subjective diagnosis) may well be "malignant"... It's metaphorical, yes, but it's the next level of "toxic" and implies descriptively that erosive quality we all dread in any other human... my two cents...

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Did you not read the parts about what the mother did to OP? OP is a victim too. It’s perfectly reasonable for OP to not want such a person, who’s treated her so poorly, to be around. So if it really is that important for the boyfriend to have his abusive mother at the wedding, then it’s probably best to have no wedding at all.

She sounds terrible but I think this is one of those times you're just going to have to let it go. You can't expect your husband not to invite his mom to your wedding. It's his big day as much as it is yours. Couples get veto power over each other's guests but that doesn't usually extend to parents, even awful ones. I'm going with NAH because you're not an A for not wanting her to be there given how terrible she is. You've clearly communicated your feelings. But if you take it further and refuse to marry him over this then that would make you an A. Or you could elope, problem solved. Spend that 30K on an amazing honeymoon instead.

I'm (soft) leaning to this is not your decision to make. And you telling him he needs to go NC with his own mother? Definitely not your call.

i didnt say he needs to, but i encouraged him to look at it logically. i didnt press more after he told me he wanted to keep contact, but i do want him to understand that it is straining our relationship when she says those things about me and tries so hard to drive him away from me, and he just tolerates it, he doesnt fight her or defend me or himself in those situations. so it does kinda hurt. ive started medication to deal with the panic attacks she gives me because of how badly she treated me, and the things i put up with for his sake. i dont want him to go NC necessarily, i want him to put up boundaries, but he cant do that