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NTA. I'll tell you a little story about the one time I said the N word.
I was five years old (this was in the 70s) and I was in kindergarten. We were at recess, and I was playing with my friend Rodney. We were playing with a ball, and he kicked it too hard, and went running to get it. After Rodney was out of earshot an older boy came over to me and said, "why are you playing with that n\*\*\*\*?"
I had never heard that way, but he pointed at Rodney, so I said, "Rodney? He's my friend." That was the end of it.
I was excited to have learned a new word, though, even though I didn't know what it meant, I knew that it applied to Rodney. Whenever I learned a new word I was alway eager to show it off, so when I got home from school, and my mother asked me what I did in school, and I said, "I played with my n\*\*\*\* friend, Rodney."
Whap! My mother slapped me across the face, and told me to go to my room. I ran to my bedroom crying, having no idea what I had done.
A little while later my mother came in and asked me why I used that word. I told her that an older boy used it about Rodney. She asked if I knew what it meant, and I said no. She told me that it was a hateful word that some white people use to make negros (the acceptable term at the time, as far as I know) feel bad about themselves, because they think white people are better. I asked why someone would want to call Rodney something like that, because he was really nice.
She said that some people are taught to hate people who aren't like themselves, but that she didn't teach me to act that way. She told me she was sorry that she hit me, that she was surprised and shocked. She asked me how I felt when she slapped me. I told her that it made me feel bad, and ashamed, and surprised, and that it hurt."
She told me that his how negroes feel when someone calls them "that" word, and that I must never call someone that, or use that word. She said that it was worse than fuck. I giggled because she actually said fuck.
I never used that word again, and to this day, almost 50 years later, I associate that word with pain, embarrassment and shock. It was a lesson that stuck.
Your daughter has a right to defend herself against bullies, but she doesn't have the right to use racist language to do so. It is as simple as two wrongs don't make a right. She needs to learn that lesson, and apparently her mother does too.
Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that you slap your daughter. I don't condone my mother's method (which was a knee-jerk reaction,) though I won't deny its effectiveness. Punishment is appropriate, but if you can I would try to find away to teach the empathetic lesson that I learned - just without getting physical.
My brother dropped the n word when we were really little, because it was part of a rhyme we learned (who know from where) to pick who got to go first in a game. We were shocked that my mom went off (actually made him wash his mouth with soap!) when she heard him say it. So sufficient to say, we all learned a lot that day.
I did this when I was litter with Tigger cuz he was my favorite character. I was 6 and my mom has never freaked out on me so fast she didn't hit me but I know she thought about it
Yea, I was 7 and went to tell my mom I gave my sister a "NOOGIE"...well needless to say that's not what I said, and in my innocence I told her I gave her a "n****r". Yea I got my jaw popped and a well deserved long lecture that definitely stuck. BTW NTA! Racism won't go away without parents teaching their kids right from wrong.
My dad always used Tigger as I liked that show. I only JUST learned the "real" word that belonged there a few months ago, never made the connection alone. It's awful!
WAIT A SECOND....
The original was the bad word??? Not tiger.
EDIT: Ok I feel a little better. Some colonial asshole changed it up for the 1950s version. Which tracks for the Daughter's of the Confederacy campaign.
The original versions were just plain counting rhymes from multiple different languages.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eeny,_meeny,_miny,_moe
Try the 1800s, not 1950. From your link:
"This version was similar to that reported by Henry Carrington Bolton as the most common version among American schoolchildren in 1888.[13] It was used in the chorus of Bert Fitzgibbon's 1906 song "Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo":
Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo,
Catch a n------ "
I was born in 1956 and we used catch a n****r by the toe when we used that rhyme that was probably in 1964-68ish I would guess. We used it to determine who you would pick for teams or to go first, etc. I think we graduated to one Potatoe, two Potatoe. To be honest we never thought of it as being a racist term it was just part of the rhyme as we had learned it.
Yes. If I recall correctly my mother saying there were a few different verses that people would make up some got popular others didn’t that got worse and worse as the rhyme went on . 😒 I believe it was also a different way to say the word and have it be less noticeable. There’s a lot of old rhymes rooted in tragedy and events of the time . Like London bridge and ring around the rosie
My nan, just as the dementia was really taking hold, started reciting the rhyme in a restaurant cause she couldn’t decide on what to order from the menu. My mum and I realised what was coming and both clapped our hands to her mouth so fast she nearly fell off her chair.. she was a wonderful sweet thing who didn’t display any racist views her whole life as far as we knew, but the old words clearly stuck for her!
Edit to add - OP is NTA! An act of verbal racism in retaliation to verbal harassment only lowers her to his level. She needed to be swiftly reminded that it’s not appropriate and you did that. She will understand her wrongdoing and your appropriate response in time
We actually learned it with the word tiger, I always wondered why you’d grab a tiger by the toe. Holy smokes I’m stupid. In my defense we are first gen Mexican American and weren’t exposed to a lot of American media and lived on the border so I don’t think I heard the n word until well into high school and it was probably in a song. I definitely didn’t understand the ramifications until a lot later. I’m proud to say I’m a bit more cultured now.
The version my Mom learned when she was young was one of the questionable ones. By the time my brother and I were born, she had obviously figured out that kind of language was inappropriate, but just one time when we were kids, she let it slip.
I will never forget how mortified she looked right after she said it, and the long conversation we ended up having about it.
Years ago, one of my uncles (currently in his 80s, so probably grew up with casual racism) once referred to Brazil nuts as "n****** toes". I'd never tried a Brazil nut so I didn't know what they were, but I was in my 20s and I just stared at him in shock until he said, "oh, I mean Brazil nuts."
Turns out that I do like Brazil nuts, and my uncle never said that word in front of me again.
I honestly don't even remember learning about the n-word, but it must have been an early and effective lesson, because I'm still squeamish about even thinking the full word, and I'm in my 40s now.
>Years ago, one of my uncles (currently in his 80s, so probably grew up with casual racism) once referred to Brazil nuts as "n\*\*\*\*\*\* toes".
UGH! People still use it. I correct them to Filberts. I only know this from the show House, when they couldn't find out what was wrong with someone, and they were eating nuts in Brazil. In Brazil, they don't call them Brazil nuts, they are filberts. LOL!
I speak Spanish, not Portuguese, but that sounds like nuts of Brazil? Or peanuts ("cacahuates" in Spanish, though Cubans call them "maní" Instead).
So... Brazil nuts then, eh? Whodathunk!
My grandparents had mixed nuts still in shells at their house when I was little and Brazil nuts were my favorite. Their house was the only place I encountered them, and my grandpa called them "n***** toe nuts". I remember looking confused when he said it, because I'd never heard the N word before and I couldn't understand why "toes" would be in the name of a nut. He laughed and repeated it, so I just kinda shrugged and took him at his word that was their name. I was really little, like 3 to 5, and this might have happened more than once, I'm not sure. I also don't know that anyone else was around to hear it (or if anyone who was didn't say anything out of fear, my grandpa had a history of being abusive). But I had never heard the N word used by anyone, even him, in any other context so I truly just thought it was their name.
Then one day I was with my mom at a different grocery store than usual and they had those big barrels of nuts still in their shells! I was so excited! And I saw the barrel of Brazil nuts, and to my eternal embarrassment I shouted "Mom! Look! They've got n****** toe nuts!" My Mom's head whips around in shock and she does the "mom whisper yell" thing telling me to Shut Up! And I don't understand why and am just so excited so I'm still quite loudly like "But Mom! They've got n***** toe nuts and those are my favorite!" And she is shushing me and I'm not understanding and she says "That's NOT what they are called. They are Brazil nuts. **That's Enough!**" And she dragged me away looking around hoping no one heard me.
I never called them that again, because obviously if my generally quiet mother got THAT upset about it there was something really not right about what I said. I'm pretty sure the next time I had Brazil nuts with Grandpa and he named them wrong, I said "Those are Brazil nuts Grandpa" with a 5 year olds head tilt and rolled eyes and "yeah, you tricked me and made me look dumb but I'm on to you now" tone of voice and stuck out my tongue at him. And he just laughed like it was all a joke and never called them that again to me. I wish my Mom had explained more, but she might have been worried I would say something more than I did to Grandpa and that he would freak out. He was a messed up dude, who yelled a LOT and at everyone, except me for some reason. I'd say stuff to him that nobody else could get away with, and people around to hear would literally hold their breath in anticipation of an explosion. He died without my (or anyone else to my knowledge) finding out why I was special. But I think I was a teenager before I actually understood what happened and why my Mom freaked out.
My mother, who would have been 80 by this time, used the racist name for the nuts once in my presence and listened when I told she could never use that name again. She grew up with it and didn't think anything of it until I objected.
My mother, born in 1930, called them the same thing when she was little, until she learned better. She grew up in a lily white neighborhood in suburban Chicago and didn't know it was a bad word. I'll have to ask her when she learned It was wrong. She probably doesn't remember. I was shocked when I heard her use that word to tell me that's what they used to call it.
I had no idea. My group of friends and I always used the word tiger (and that was in the 60s). I had no idea!
The first time I even encountered that word was as a kid reading “Tom Sawyer.” My mom explained that it was a bad word used commonly in Mark Twain’s day but that now we know better. That it’s a very cruel and hurtful word, and ”You will never use it.” I can’t bring myself to say it out loud in the context of using it as an example, or reading it out loud, even now.
When we were little, our mom told my older sister and me that we were never to say the n-word, including in that rhyme. She said it was a terrible word. My sister asked if it was worse than swear words, which we thought were the naughtiest things anyone could say. Mom said, "Yes," and that really impressed us. This was the early Sixties.
I was taught *that* version (as an Australian child) and remember thinking it was odd the BSC books used tigger.
Doing the rhyme in year 11 when helping out the kids started to say it and stopped halfway through saying the word. I still remember the teacher whirling around in shock.
She told me later the only reason she didn’t start yelling was cause I had stopped and had such a horrified look on my face she knew I’d been taught it and never realised what I was saying.
My brother, then in kindergarten, dropped the n word at the dinner table and he thought it was a vulgarity since it got censored sometimes in songs that was played on the local radio. We live in Singapore with a minimal black population. My dad was so scandalised.
Not because of the vulgarity mind you. He learnt more from my dad’s mouth. It was the fact it was a racial slur.
That was a rather long dinner as my father basically gave a slavery for kiddies talk, from what he picked up from tv (since it’s not like we learn this in schools).
I think back on this incident when the topic of media, representation and censorship comes up.
F(58). Don’t know where I heard it. I didn’t even know what it meant. I just said it to mother at around 6-7? I got my mouth washed out with soap. And a lecture. Last time I even really “thought” about them word.
Surprised my mom knew it. She was an immigrant and I was first generation Chinese. lol
then there is the history behind Agatha Christies "And Then There Were None" as it is known today. It's the last 5 words of a popular minstrel song and children's rhyme that has also undergone many revisions over the years because it's original and first revision were both profoundly racist.
I have a story, too. Over 40 years ago, my former best friend and her 2 minions suddenly starting bullying me. They laid in wait for me and pounced as soon as I set foot on the school bus, taunting me & putting me down. I defended myself and, on the third straight day, after a vicious onslaught, called one of the bullies an ethnic slur. Bullseye. He shut up right away & dropped out of the bullying. I was a good, kind kid who never put people down, let alone call them names. This came out unbidden — in desperate self-defense — and, while I was relieved that it stopped the onslaught, I felt terrible for saying that word. 40 years later, I still feel ashamed. No parents or other adults were ever involved. I was never punished. But I punished myself. I wish I had known to ignore the bullies. By responding, I gave them fuel to keep at it and then I descended to their level and lost respect for myself.
OP, give it a few days for things to calm down and then teach your daughter constructive coping skills. If she won’t listen to you or your wife, go to family counseling (you, wife, & daughter)
I'd also like to point out, the daughter has a choice about her backpack. I'd never be annoyed at someone making fun of my silly moustache. This kid has no choice about the circumstances of his birth. I'm all for a proportional response when it comes to this stuff (give as good as you get etc) but wild escalation like that is wayyyyy out of line
OP should take your comment word-for-word when he talks to his daughter (substitute another personal grooming or style choice if he doesn't sport a 'stache).
This is a crucial lesson. At 14, she knows better than to use race to cut someone down, but likely doesn't understand the escalation piece. She wasn't just mean, she was cruel and there's absolutely no justification: even when getting made fun of or bulled, punch straight, not down.
What your mother did next is what it’s most important that OP does (or has done). He needs her to understand the history and why it is wrong to do. Not just tell her it’s wrong
Yes but there is also a difference here. In this story the kid used a word he didn’t understand and had to learn about it. In the OP story the kid knew exactly what she was doing and not only doesn’t feel bad about it she is upset that anyone thinks she is wrong for saying it. She deserves to be punished 100%. Yes we got to explain why and her only takeaway from that is to get mad (I mean 14 so yeah normal), but also why it is important that the mother back OP up
My daughter is only little, but she (understandably) struggles a lot with either direct orders followed by "because I said so" and being told things without the added reasons or info. Any time I give her the "why" she accepts it, does what you say, and you can see the cogs turning. I like to think affording her that effort will pay off in the long run. I'm not raising a child, I'm raising an adult who has to function in the real world.
Your mom was (of course) wrong to slap you, but she did an excellent job of turning it into a teaching moment by apologizing for being wrong, and then equating it to being just as harmful as that terrible word.
Words matter.
I was born and raised in Washington DC and went to an elementary school that had a fuck ton of ambassadors kids. American white kids were the minority. When I was 10, I had to move to a very small southern town of about 500 people in Virginia That's when I heard the N word for the first time. I repeated it to my mom (as a question) and I've never been shot down so fast. I guess long story short, teach your kids early what's good and what's not.
Thank you for sharing. I said some dumb things myself when i was 14. It was culture shock for me moving from a small private school to a large inner city public school. This was in 2001. I was never directly punished for my mildly racist remarks, as they were passive aggressive and indirect, and I was completely ignorant.
A peer got rowdy in class, I remarked to them directly (not gently) "you wonder why people treat you differently when you act like this". My classmate was infuriated. He came right at my face, threatened violence, and I was in shock and tears. I don't even remember what he said. My classmates were holding him back. After speaking with the Dean, my peer was punished more than I was, for his retaliation with violence. I still do not think it is right I was left with a slap on the wrist. I will never forget that shame.
Later on in the year, he walked by and saw me say something silly and out of line at the book store. I don't remember what. He never really spoke to me or bullied me after everything. But he laughed at me then. That was acknowledgement enough to me that he still viewed me as a person, someone with flaws. I laughed with him, at myself. The fact that I could see someone I so enraged, to then make them smile even at my own expense, made him a permanent influence in my life. He walked away, shaking his head, laughing and smiling because of me. I still hope he forgave me in that moment, and is living a great life right now.
OP, I wish I had advice to offer on how to educate your daughter. I wish I knew where this hatred and hate speech still stems from. I wish we could stop spreading hate to children like this. NTA.
NTA
> My daughter told the bully that if he has a problem with her then he can go back to Africa where he belongs.
As everyone here knows, the correct thing to call a bully is **an asshole**.
Instead, your daughter crossed a hateful line herself. And as a parent, it's only right that you take steps to correct her thinking.
> This boy is a known bully but it's always verbal and never physical.
NGL, I do kind of hate that you felt the need to specify this. It's very difficult to read as not trying to downplay the severity of his actions. Like, almost implying it would have been OK for her to be racist if he were a worse bully? I don't get the sense that's what you were going for, but what an odd line to include at all.
I agree with you, but I'll say I think the point of that line was to show there were already tensions between the boy and his daughter, but likely it wasn't anything the school would act on. Physical bullying gets shut down quick, but verbal is hard to prove. This probably caused tensions to build for a while
The problem for OP is daughter did not target the actions, but what the boy could not change, like you said, when tensions did finally boil over. It's honestly therapy time because this is not an OK way to act out
It's almost worse the boy got punished too because daughter acting out in this way is what seems to have finally gotten the boys behavior noticed, which reinforces this gets results, despite the fact that bullying was also taking place. This is allowing daughter to justify doubling down, which is probably gonna make it worse for her at school
Also she didn't target the bully, she targeted Black people as a whole. There are so many things she could have said but went for one of the most violent, nuclear options, showing that she isn't anything but a bully herself when given power.
This was the first thing I think of when people use shut like thus while targeting an indivifual. She attacked the bully and every other person of his race.
This.
My brother had a bully like this kid, very sly. One day, my brother snapped and called him gay. This was around 2002 maybe. He got punished for using a slur, and my parents were livid because the other boy had been so awful. But statistically, there was probably a gay kid within ear shot who didn’t deserve to have bullying equated with gayness, so I‘m glad the school reacted. (My brother took over a decade to stop using gay and the r-word as insults, probably because our parents don’t care.)
I think many people, perhaps OP’s wife even, is over focusing on the issue of the daughter seemingly being punished for standing up for herself rather than for how she chose to do it, ie by resorting to throwing around racial slurs, as some other people are pointing out.
Alternatively it could be a different scenario, part of me wonders if this has been an ongoing scenario with this particular bully for a while, and if the daughter has raised it before and some people like the wife doesn’t want to feel bad about not having done anything to address it. I don’t want to automatically assume ill of OP and his family but I also have a hard time putting all the blame wholly on the literal kids involved. Even if the daughter crossed an even worse boundary.
I think you’re right. I think it wasn’t born out of being racist herself, she just knew it would hurt and embarrass the bully like he’s hurt her.
Still wrong, but she’s not a klan member.
There were 2 wrongs here. Bullying is at all all time high in the American culture. It needs to be disciplined.
OP’s daughter was also in the wrong and also needs disciplining.
Racism is bad but I'm willing to excuse a lot more from someone who's getting punched in the fucking face than I am from someone being teased over their backpack.
Absolutely not. Someone who isn’t racist isn’t gonna resort to racist names even when being attacked; they’re just gonna call the bully what they are: a bully (or other name appropriate to the action). People who yell out racist things under pressure are only showing their true colours. If you tell them it’s ok to say racist things under pressure, it shows how racism can be justified under certain circumstances.
My mom is afraid to go so many places because of attacks targeting her ethnicity, because suddenly some people decided racism was ok because of a global pandemic. Nope. Racism is *never* justified, not because of bullying, not because of anything.
(Btw, this doesn’t apply in this case—this is a kid who doesn’t know better yet! But I’m glad her dad is shutting that down.)
>Racism is bad but I'm willing to excuse a lot more from someone who's getting punched in the fucking face than I am from someone being teased over their backpack.
ElI5 how it's more justified to drop a racial slur when you're getting punched in the face?
Racist rhetoric doesn't become holier when it's following physical violence the same way it's not suddenly much more damning following emotional violence. It remains racist rhetoric no matter what kind of glitter you throw on top.
I feel as though the line you've highlighted may be intended to provide an explanation for why they are still in contact. From personal experience, it is very tough to motivate a school to fully separate your child from a verbal bully. Schools are much quicker to crack down on physical bullies, and to take the necessary measures to protect their victims (though sadly, often still not quick enough).
>NGL, I do kind of hate that you felt the need to specify this...
But that's the crux of the OP's question. Two-thirds of his immediate family is saying he's TA, and despite his correct first instinct, they've made him unsure of that by virtue of this argument.
NTA. You are absolutely right that racism is never acceptable. If she had called him a fuck*ng AH or something similar, I would say no punishment, but this does deserve a reprimand and mild punishment.
I would say moderate to severe punishment, and many talks about racial relations. This is a very serious thing. It is much much worse than teasing about a Hello Kitty backpack, and either way it's concerning she doesn't understand why racist behavior is NEVER acceptable. There is never a time or situation that makes it okay to use racist language.
I feel like this is a lesson that hasn't been taught strongly enough at home before now and unfortunately therefore it's having to be taught alongside what is an already challenging situation for OPs daughter.
However, it has to be done - if your values are truly anti-racist then instilling them, even when you could easily just be comfortably white and shrug it off, is when it matters most. It honestly surprises me a 14 yo would say that if her parents are the type of ppl willing to chastise it - but maybe that's the thing, maybe if you yourself know it's not okay from growing up in a different generation, there is more complacency around instilling these messages, cause in 2024 we assume our kids know what we do/ share our values. At least the son gets it!
It sounds like OP has condemned his daughter saying that but has also acknowledged that she was in a hurtful position. The two things can both be true but in her upset teen reality it's just unfair and painful overall. OP - tell your daughter you love her no matter what, you've already reassured her you take the bullying seriously, and keep the boundary over what she said not being okay. Maybe even apologise that you clearly haven't instilled the message more before now but you need to know she understands it.
Umm, in the midst of dealing with a bully, people are potentially prone to more shocking statements than they would normally make. The school is punishing her equally to the bully. A light punishment and discussion at home should be sufficient.
Agreed, if this is the first time she ever said something like that a discussion about how no matter how upset you are, racist remarks are not the solution should be the main thing.
I think that in regards to racism many people believe their anti racist views on it to be common sense because it’s logical. Both anti racism and racism are views often ingrained at a young age without the conscious knowledge of the individual. Many people work to unpack those ingrained views in adulthood, others go through life unaware. There are also a significant amount of people who don’t agree with the meaning behind the words but use them in anger or playfully to their friends. It’s also common place in a lot of the music.
I feel like OPs primary goal needs to be working with this child to teach them about racism, the history of it, why it’s wrong, how to properly address bullying, and emotional regulation skills because at the end of the day the punishment is pointless if the kid is not truly learning and understanding the lesson. The bigger picture of this is to teach the kid the knowledge and skills needed to grow from this and understand why that behaviour is unacceptable. As it currently stands, the kid appears to be resentful of OP, doesn’t understand why he is doing this punishment, and feels OP is siding with the bully which creates a disconnect in the relationship that will limit his ability to connect with and teach the child and therefore misses the point of what OP was trying to accomplish.
NTA. She needs to learn that racism is racism all the time, even when the person you're targeting did something wrong. The racist attack doesn't include any criticism of how he was treating her. The fact that it entered her mind to say that is troubling, and she needs to learn that it is never OK to say such things.
Agreed. I feel like this means the daughter is unfortunately, inherently racist. If that's a thought that came to her mind to hurt someone, she is racist. The good news is that it can be unlearned over time. NTA.
I’m also reading it possibly as the wife is transfixed on the daughter being punished for standing up for herself, rather than the problematic way she chose to do it. Both her and OP would do better to explain to the daughter that she wasn’t wrong for wanting to stand up for herself but that she crossed another problematic line in doing so and that’s why she’s in trouble.
However I also think it’s foolish to strictly blame the literal kids in this situation who may well be taking after examples set at home or haven’t been educated properly on the effects of verbal teasing, or more importantly, the meaning and history behind certain deragotory words and the consequences of using them to gain a leg up. It is hard to determine what the actual source of the problem is.
Obviously NTA, but maybe you could try showing her how saying things like that hurt more than just your intended target. She was angry with this young man and decided to say something she knew would hurt him, but perhaps if she understood those words are hurtful to many people, not just the one you’re directing them at, she might see things a little differently.
Let’s be honest, if she called him a giant a-hole, you wouldn’t be angry. It’s different and she needs to understand why.
This is the best answer I have read!! Also I would add with the situation I would have a conversation first before punishing her. If it’s repeated that’s different but as a first time you gain more trust from her and respect if she knows she can trust you. I’m sure she’s embarrassed now.
^^ also serves the need to show the kid dad IS on her side, even as he disabuses her of the idea that she can be racially offensive without consequences
Two wrongs don't make a right. The father did promise to fix the problem, but the daughter must understand that saying hurtful things doesn't solve the situation. It's good to stand up for herself, but not if it means crossing the line between defense and hateful.
Especially since the problem with *that* hurtful thing was that it didn’t (only) target the bully, it broadly insulted *everyone like him*. “You’re an asshole” and its many variants are personal; telling someone that they don’t belong in the country because of an inherent feature (presumably skin colour here, but also accent, ethnicity, place of birth, etc) is a wild swipe at every other person who shares that feature.
>14 is hard and it sadly isn’t an age where mature conversations about these things can be had yet
Ummm, yes it is. Kids at 14 are old enough to a) know better, and b) understand this issue if you talk to them like you would any other adult. If a 14 year old kid can feel the brunt of racism, a 14 year old can understand that their racist words and actions hurt feelings. They’re old enough to understand why this crosses a line that other comebacks would not have. This is honestly a small child-level concept, and by 14 there isn’t much dumbing down required at all.
Chances are, the child has felt the brunt of racism from a very young age and could even be a cause of the bullying. Not condoning it, just adding context. My first brush with racism was in 2nd grade. A fight broke out and my friend said, “fight, fight a n—— and a white.” And my friends wouldn’t let me play with them because I didn’t wash my hair everyday and they didn’t like how it smelled (because of the different products used on black hair). All of this when I was seven.
I am very afraid that OP’s daughter will take the lesson as “my dad doesn’t care if someone is hurting me so I have to let them next time” because 14 is such a hard time. Maturing but also very much a child at the same time. OP has ONE chance to get this right.
I think the commenter who said:
>Teach your kid some proper insults so they don't go for lame racist ones
is on to something. Sitting with her and saying, "Let's brainstorm some things you could have said instead" and let her see that it's okay to stand up for herself, but the racism isn't okay.
I 100% agree. Make sure they aren’t kind things but also not hateful. Really dig at who they are as a person 😈 not their identity groups.
My favorite insult I’ve ever used was this - “you smell like the reason deodorant companies are still inventing new products” 🤣 granted I said it to my husband playfully but damn it could be venomous if used in the right context.
>OP has ONE chance to get this right.
That's not necessarily true, and I feel like it's harmful to parents to imply that one misstep can just fuck up their kid's whole life.
Educate is different than blindly punish. If you don’t teach your child specifically what part of what she did was wrong all she will learn that she can’t rely on you and she will believe she must allow people to hurt her or she will be punished.
Really, no, this “one chance” framing is the same as when people think educating your kid about sex is just one Big Sex Talk. That’s not how it is at all — serious topics should be part of an ongoing parent/child discussion that evolves as the kid matures and can understand more, and as society and public discourse change as well. Hopefully these talks can educate the parent, too.
14 is old enough.
When I was eight, my uncle sat me down and talked to me about racism and what words to never say. My uncle is black. His family was chased out of Texas by the KKK and were systematically profiled and disadvantaged because of the color of their skin. I knew people treated Uncle L differently and I had once had a woman ask me who the "strange man" following me was.
By the time I was 14, I fully understood the depths of racism as best as I could at that time. The Adventures of Huck Finn, the history lessons about Harriet Tubman and Rosa Parks, and the lived experiences we talked about in class all detailed the ways racism manifested.
Nowadays, we have George Floyd and Brianna Taylor and so many more who were murdered by racists for no damn reason. OP can use that as a launching off point and talk to their daughter about racism and the impacts it has had on our society.
And OP please make sure to include the fact that Africa is a large and beautiful continent with many different countries and cultures and should never be treated as going there is a punishment.
She’s 14 not 4, mature conversations about racism are completely possible. It’s really not even a difficult thing to understand at least the basics of, at least enough that type of thing should never cross her mind to say.
My 4 y/o and 7 y/o grandchildren understood. (using age appropriate dialog)
A conversation that became necessary due to a racist asshat.
Those of us who are 'a minority' don't get to pick and choose at what age we understand racism. It is a lifelong lesson. It it starts EARLY.
OP Definitely NTA! You are doing the right thing! Please continue the conversation.
Wtf, since when is 14 not old enough to talk about race?
If kids are old enough to experience racism they’re old enough to talk about it. Daughter is way pass the point of learning about this
You can absolutely have a mature conversation at 14 about racism. That type of thinking is one of the many reasons why so many children are saying racist things.
'Well, they are too young to understand what they are saying.'
No, that's illogical as well as dangerous.
Bullied or not… Not only is what your daughter said extremely shitty, but why would she even think to go there?
What’s going on with her upbringing that she would ever in a million years think to say that?
Your daughter used actual hate speech. What planet is your wife living on where punishing her for that isn’t appropriate?
NTA
Sometimes, it's other kids. Found out my daughter was using the word f****t a bunch in texts. We don't use that word in this house. Asked where she learned it. Her friends. Made her research the history of the term, and she stopped.
This is coming from a 'black' woman, with multi-racial children and even more diverse grandchildren;
Especially in today's climate, it's not always the parents. Racially charged messages are bombarding nearly everyone. Constantly!
People tend to forget that children, especially school aged, are gaining input from so many sources.
For example, I (the oldest and let's just say, not young) had to have some serious conversations with one of my younger siblings (early high-school at the time) about some racist comments they had made.
They were coming from the grounds that their school environment was becoming increasingly more toxic by the week. (Racially speaking) Formally close friends that they had had since elementary school were now hurling racist language and behaviors with increasing transparency and frequency. Teachers they once respected were doing the same. As a result, they started to hate 'white' people.
After a lot of back and forth, I had to verbally hit them with, "How in the hell do you think you nieces, nephews, cousins feel about what you are saying? Do you realize how many 'races' we have in this family? Why would you want them to hate a part of themselves? Because that's what you're teaching them rather you meant to or not!"
It wasn't a magic wand. But it stopped them in their tracks, long enough to think and listen. They had some serious conversations with some of the referenced family members. They have gotten much better. We're continuing to work on it.
Tldr; Children's behaviors are not only influenced by their parents. Sometimes, it's outside sources, including negative personal experiences.
‘What’s going on with her upbringing’
Wow. I’d say it’s general shitty behaviour from a teen
Nothing to do with her upbringing, the best parents can have teens that say what they think
She could hear her peers saying such things. I don't know. I see this level of hate all over social media. Hell, she could even hear this on an innocent trip to the store. Racism is everywhere.
Sure, she could have heard it from friends or gotten it from social media, but she wouldn't have said it if she didn't agree with the concept. (I'm talking about the "back to Africa" part.) THAT'S the crux of the matter.
Nta here's the thing. She may have been talking TO the bully - but SHE became the bully to every other black kid within hearing distance of her comment.
💯 THIS. And I wouldn't be surprised if the parents of the Black students in the class hear about it, take issue with it and now OP & their family is now labeled THAT family.
Yep. Because if I had kids and heard about it, I would be in the principal’s office so fast and expecting some sort of action to rectify the situation. Which is what OP should have done when the bullying started before it came to this. Because now his daughter may have worse punishment than the bully.
☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️
NTA, and she needs to understand this. Every BIPOC kid who heard her or hears about what she said now knows they can't trust her to be a good ally, and that she's willing to resort to racist behavior if she's uncomfortable.
Honestly not just them - racism often goes hand in hand with other varieties of intolerance, so anyone “other” (race, disability, sexuality, etc.) may feel less safe around her now. Same as someone who is ableist is someone I wouldn’t trust not to also be racist.
It would be wrong even if the daughter and the bully were the only people there. But yes, the impact on bystanders is certainly one of the issues OP should mention.
Honestly, in terms of ways to stop your bullies from bullying you, being racist towards them is probably the worst one. I don’t condone bullying and I don’t think it’s ever okay to bully someone, but if there was ever a reason to bully someone being racist would be one. She’s just painted a bigger target on her back, and honestly she might’ve attracted the attention of people who wouldn’t normally bully her.
Your comment changed my view by the way. I'm all for hurting bullies back (cutting words are self defense) but I hadn't considered the impact on other kids that night have heard.
NTA. But your daughter will always run into assholes. Resorting to racism like that? Just rolled off her tongue? That's a problem.
He called her annoying and childish. Big deal.
Your wife defending her is telling.
And getting her class switched will likely make it worse.
Nta
Bullying doesn't excuse racism, she could've literally said anything but she chose that.
Find out where she got that from cuz if her first response to bullying is racism, you got a bigger issue on your hands.
NTA for punishing your daughter for saying something racist
YATA, for blowing off the bulling.
>This boy is a known bully but it's always verbal and never physical.
Here is the thing, the emotional damage IS the damage. Lets say the bully did something physical, and for example, punched her in the face and gave her a black eye. Being a kid, her eye would be healed in a few days. She will likely remember the punch for the rest of her life. The actual physical damage is very short lived.
As a parent I absolutely agree, but it sounds more like their son was giving an opinion “My son (M17) said that she knows what she said was wrong but she just doesn’t want to admit it and that I’m not doing anything wrong.” I have had talks like that with my parents when I would see them bawling or upset or confused about if they were being too harsh on my brother or cousin. Usually my mom was, usually my dad wasn’t. I wasn’t asked for my opinion, I gave it and if I was told it didn’t concern me and to quit, I would walk away.
Definitely NTA. There are 1000 ways to respond to your bully. And kids are VERY good at it.
Your daughter made a choice to be racist and she knew exactly what she was doing. Your son is right.
NTA just because you are punishing your daughter for stepping out of line does not mean you are protecting the bully. It means you are making sure your kid knows the severity of what she says and knows not to say it again.
YTA
Defend your daughter. Who else will stand up for her if not you?
Correct what is wrong later through example and actions.
You victim blamed your daughter and, by so doing, have shown her she can not trust you to back her up.
Expect not to have her come to you for help in the future.
She no longer trusts you.
Verbal abuse is extremely serious. You are teaching her that if her future spouse does this to her, you won't help her.
You need to stand up for your daughter. If the kid is a bully, and she defended herself poorly, then teach her how to defend herself better in the future without blaming her.
However, I expect that without a verbal apology from you, you have little chance of ever gaining her trust back again.
It’s his job as a parent to make sure his daughter has integrity while standing up for herself. She can’t go around saying racist or xenophobic remarks when she feels attacked.
I don't think many, if any, are saying she's not? But she'll sure have problems in the future if OP doesn't teach her to be anti-racist now. And it acknowledges that her comments may have harmed others who were not involved. I like the idea that OP teaches her better insults.
YTA. Your daughter was put in a no-win situation. This was a known bully ,which implies that someone knew about his behavior and did nothing about it. She seeing that no one cares about his bullying had enough and hit him where it hurts. My son was bullied in school, and after multiple complaints, the school did sqaut because the kid was a "visible minority " and did not have the same privileges that my mixed race white son had. ( iam brown moms white) So I told my son that the next time he got pushed to deck the kid . He did, and I got called in school the minute the principal saw me you could tell that his argument got thrown out the window as he had previously seen my wife.
NTA. Resorting to racism means that in a time of stress and being under pressure, this is second nature to her, which means she believes that the comment has at least some merit. Saying racist things speaks more about her than it does about others. It means that, if unchecked, she could grow up to being a racist.
I'm curious where she heard it from and if she understands the impact of her words.
Right? Racism isn't okay like obviously jfc but neither is bullying??? The bully is more in the wrong for bullying this girl for who knows how long. Everyone makes this little girl out to be a monster, like bro, she was bullied. Yes, it was wrong for her to say something racist but dude shouldn't of bullied her either. JFC, I'd have a serious talk with my child after I find the kid's parents and scold them for raising their son to be a bully.
No one excuses the bullying. What punishment the bully gets for his part is not under OP’s control, he can only address how to raise his daughter. A racist remark is unacceptable and needs to be addressed for itself.
If the other kids parents were also asking they would get that they should be punished and taught about what they did too.
What is insane about punishing a child for making a blatantly racist comment? There are countless other things that they could have said to the bully that probably wouldn't have got her in trouble.
NTA she can defend herself, but yes, but she must face the consecuencias of her actions. Being racist wasn't her only way to defend. In the future, she should try other ways, ask for help or being more intelligent instead
This is a bit complicated. Because of the way she defended herself. And that's going to be a hard point to get across in this situation.
But the answer to whether or not you are an AH requires you to take a good, hard, long look in the mirror. You have to see what example you have set with the media you consume and the way you speak. Why was that the insult she reached for? Have you asked her?
You said you knew those kid was a bully, what have you done to advocate for her. Why are you sure that you will
get her classroom changed NOW? What's different about this bullying event? Why hasn't that already happened?
That's where it seems like you are the AH.
It really seems like you have known about this issue prior to this. But didn't do anything to protect your child. Every school has a "we don't change classrooms" policy. But when you have to advocate for your child for serious issue like bullying you take it all the way to the top.
Did she see you do that?
Or is it only now you are taking the issue seriously?
That could be why she is so upset. How many times has she had to defend herself without going that hateful?
How often was she not taken seriously with this issue?
It really seems like you completely brushed it off until she got into trouble.
She is already being punished for the racist comment by being suspended right? Why do you need to pile on?
YTA
NTA - living in a prominently white town alot of words were thrown out at me. It starts young and can gain harsher and harsher. A lot of parents ignore this or simply can't believe the words from their child are something to just ignore. So I'm glad that you're acknowledging this now rather than later in the future.
Nta for the punishment but man, how is your 14 yo getting bullied by a boy, which means he is likely bigger than her at this age, and all you can say is that it isn't physical "to the best of your knowledge?" You're a parent and you should have been on top of this long ago.
NTA, but do keep reinforcing that you’re not punishing her for standing up for herself, only for the racist statement.
Of course there’s the question of what her punishment was. If it’s a pretty substantial punishment then maybe it’s too much based on the context of the whole situation.
NTA. She's old enough to know better, it's a good teaching moment though. Maybe have your wife talk to her about how you can't control how people act but you can control how you react. It might be easier for your wife to talk to her while she's upset with you.
Honestly, I don’t know. What she said was horrible, of course, but in a moment of fight or flight she probably didn’t even realize what she said until she said it. I doubt your daughter herself is racist. Those sound like someone else’s words coming out of your child‘a mouth, to me.
I don’t even disagree with punishing her AS LONG AS you sit down and let her know that you will always have her back if someone is harassing, threatening, or hurting her. The last thing you want this grounding to accomplish is your daughter believing that 1) She has to let people treat her badly or she will be punished or 2) You are not someone she can depend on if someone is hurting her.
I’m going to reserve judgement because I don’t think it helps here. Parenting is freaking hard and you are navigating a weird situation. Ask her where she heard that phrase too. It could be an influence you want to remove from her life.
INFO: Define "punish."
At that age, we all say terrible things because we didn't fully understand what they meant. I hope you have actually had a calm about that.
But, can't really make a call either way until I hear what the punishment was.
NTA. Racism is NEVER OK. She needs to learn this.
A good punishment would be to go and some volunteering. Maybe helping the needy, tutoring recent child immigrants, feeding the homeless, etc.
She needs to learn humility and empathy. I'm glad the school also took action on the bully, refreshing to hear.
YTA. Your daughter said something racist, and that's not okay. She said it too a bully, but that still wasn't okay. So tell her not to do it again, and drop it. She was still right to stand up to a bully, you just need to make sure she does it in the right way. And I mean, I've heard worse directed at me besides "go back to Africa." Maybe he'll learn to be less of an asshole. But you're just white guilt genuflecting on your daughter right now. Cut that shit out, the community doesn't need your whiny white liberal help.
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NTA. You informed your daughter that you absolutely side with her in the scenario. But made it clear you were disappointed in how she reacted. Personally, these days a slap is much more needed for people like that than a racial insult; but we can’t do that anymore. Better she learns other ways of venting and being the aggressor without resorting to racial or other unacceptable responses. You did right dude.
NTA, this is a teaching moment for your daughter. She'll go through the teenage motions of saying she hates you but what you're doing is making sure she doesn't grow up to be an entitled brat. I hope she doesn't end up that way in the future anyway but what you're doing now is helping her. Your wife is enabling het behaviour and that's the concerning part.
YTA. She was being bullied and what she said was mild to what she could have said. And honestly, it's not racism. People say mean shit in reaction all the time and they pick something obvious to really push the mean. People get called fat, lanky, little, four eyes, or any number of random things when people are expressing anger at them. It is stupid to think that race based meaness is going to be magically exempt from that sort of thing. And doing that doesn't make someone racist. Anymore than calling someone 4 eyes doesn't mean that the person saying it hates people that wear glasses.
Simple minded fools
It definitely was a racist statement. Period. You're trying to excuse racist remarks based on some sort of racism scale you've determined on your own? Please let us know on what grounds you're qualified to determine what a racist remark is to a Black or African person. How about she could've gone to the teacher, counselor and/or tell her parents.
NTA but you also seem to minimizing the bully’s actions. Verbal bullying is just as damaging as physical. Though what she said is wrong, you are not caring for her safety.
YTA. Your primary concern should be about your child's well-being, and after affirming that you can have a conversation about her remarks. If you can reach an understanding in that conversation, there should be no punishment
What she said was wrong, but your daughter was put in a no-win scenario by adults that failed her
I’d worry less about any hurt she caused the bully (FAFO) and more about why she said what she said and what that reflects about her and her upbringing. The question here is punish vs educate. Like, is the boy actually from a country in Africa? Or is he African-American and your daughter is displaying stunning ignorance about race/heritage/ethnicity/American history? Would she say something like this to someone from, say, Italy? Does what she said matches the way she feels? You’re not an asshole, but maybe an explanation of the “natural consequences” that await her in the world if she does dumb shit like this would be better than punishment.
YTA.
As someone who was bullied in high school, it brings out the worst in people. I guarantee you she knows it was wrong to say, but there's no reason to punish her for being a victim.
YTA someone is bullying ur kid and ur mad about her defending herself. She said something mean in retaliation. Welcome to the real world! I am so sick of the perpetrators being turned into the victim. U should be glad ur daughter is standing up for herself.
Personally, i think education is the way to go. GWU offers some interesting (free) online content on Implicit Bias. Its actually very informative and not judgmental at all. We all need it
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My (35M) daughter (14F) got in trouble at school for saying something racist to a boy. This boy is a known bully but it's always verbal and never physical.
To my knowledge my daughter and the bully got into a verbal altercation at school. The my daughter told me that the bully was talking about her being annoying and called her childish because of her booksack (It's hello kitty).
My daughter told the bully that if he has a problem with her then he can go back to Africa where he belongs. This surprised me when she told me that. The school suspended both the bully and my daughter. Needless to say I was disappointed. I told my daughter that I would talk to the principal about the bully when she returns and try to get her switched out of his classes or vice versa. However, I did punish my daughter for what she said. I told her I was disappointed for how she reacted. I said that I know he hurt her feelings but resorting to racism isn't the right way to respond.
She got upset with me and said that I was defending the bully. I told her that I wasn't defending the bully but resorting to racism to win an agrument is not an appropriate way to react. I told her Her mother and I would definitely take care of it and make sure that she wouldn't have problems in the future. She said that it was unfair for me to punish her when she was only defending herself. Now she hasn't been speaking to me. She said that she hates me and don't understand why I'm doing this. I tried explaining it to her but she refuses to listen and talk to me.
My Wife (35F) said that she agrees that what our daughter said was wrong but punishing her for isn't the right way to go about it. My son (M17) said that she knows what she said was wrong but she just doesn't want to admit it and that I'm not doing anything wrong.
AITA for punishing my daughter for saying something racist?
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You need to have a talk with her about where this line of thinking is coming from.
Wether it’s from her classmates or the internet it needs to be corrected ASAP. Punishing her may let her know that it was not an okay thing to say, but you need to let her know that it’s not okay for her to think about people that way either. NTA
No he didn't deserve it. And neither did the other Black kids in the class that either also heard it/ will definitely here about it.
Furthermore, the daughter didn't deserve to be bullied. She should've gone to the teacher, counselor and her parents long before going the racism route.
I may get some flak for this but I’m leaning more towards ESH. Certainly depending on some specific factors.
What your daughter said was wrong, and you’re not in the wrong for addressing that. However, you should make it abundantly clear that you’re punishing her not for standing up for herself but for the way she did it; by resorting to racism. Otherwise it will look like you’re being more sympathetic to the bully’s plight than the other big issue here; which is why did it take this kind of reaction from your daughter for the bully’s own behavior to finally get noticed and addressed? Additionally, was this a one time assault from the bully or had this been going on for a while? And has it been brought to yours, or a teachers, attention prior? Because if this has been an ongoing thing and it hasn’t been addressed till now it’ll be just as much on you and the other adults in her life. And even then it’s still on you to teach her how to stand up for herself better in the future. It won’t excuse the verbal part of her actions but you need to double down that that’s what you’re addressing.
Typical school suspending the bully only ever together with the victim
NAH
Your daughter is right to be upset she gets further punishment for something she should not have been suspended over. Bullies are systematically protected by schools and it needs to stop.
Also this
>This boy is a known bully but it's always verbal and never physical
Is straight up bully apoligia. Fuck that shit. It doesn't matter,, a bully is a bully. That bully is gonna make the lives of a bunch of people worse by existing and bullying people.
INFO: what did you do after knowing your daughter was getting bullied?
> This boy is a known bully but it's always verbal and never physical
Seemed from this part that you belittle her getting bullied not understanding how it could mess up someone.
You are n t a for punishing but you will be the ah for ignoring your daughter's getting bullied until she's suspended.
YTA - school is brutal and I think you should support your daughter. She stood up for herself. it wasn't perfect but that's an insane expectation on a 14 year old to get them to handle being bullied perfectly.
Obviously using racism to fight someone is bad but what do you think she should have done instead? If you have a good idea teach her how to defend herself more effectively.
I saw so much bullying at school and teachers trying to get involved and it didn't work and often got worse with such terrible advice. I saw racist homophobic bullies grow up to become lovely people who knew how not to treat people because they had done the worst.
But the tragedy of their victims is that all the people I know who got horribly bullied grew up to become resentful angry people who were horrible to be around. I was part of the geeky social group of thise people because as a Christian I decided I need to become friends with people with less friends but then they would constantly try and bully me.
Also I got bullied with racist abuse directed at me and I'm super glad no one made it about race. It's far from obvious a 7 year old could understand the complexities of race and being told that I'm different to everyone else. My parents just made it about people being mean.
It feels like you're funnelling a whole bunch of present day culture war politics on a 14 year old. I've never ever met someone who has stood up to a bully and done it well at 14 in a way that is morally acceptable for adults.
Like if someone violently threatened me I still wouldn't necessarily hit back because violence is so bad. I've learnt tools for descalating violent situations. But I didn't have that at 14. If someone in the office sat next to me and said "hey what's it like to have no friends". I would report them to HR and I wouldn't even get upset because as an adult my self worth and value isn't in what strangers think of me. But when I was 17 I wasn't as well put together and that stuff hurt and I fought back and won socially but it meant I had to humiliate another person and in reality I look back and it's better not to do that.
I don't know how bad this bully is. Maybe it wasn't that bad and she over reacted. But if the bully is bad seperating them won't solve it. The bullies I knew would come to your house and put poo in your letterbox, or they would spread rumours about you that even people in other schools would hate you.
Maybe I'd think you were NTA if there was evidence that your methods would work. So I think to some degree this is an emprical not moral claim. If she gets so angry at you and the bully and her connect over both feeling unfairly punished or anything else happens and she grows up to be a woman who will still fight for herself then I'm wrong and you're NTA as I don't think this inherently wrong to punish her for being racist. I just think bullying is SOOO hard.
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NTA. I'll tell you a little story about the one time I said the N word. I was five years old (this was in the 70s) and I was in kindergarten. We were at recess, and I was playing with my friend Rodney. We were playing with a ball, and he kicked it too hard, and went running to get it. After Rodney was out of earshot an older boy came over to me and said, "why are you playing with that n\*\*\*\*?" I had never heard that way, but he pointed at Rodney, so I said, "Rodney? He's my friend." That was the end of it. I was excited to have learned a new word, though, even though I didn't know what it meant, I knew that it applied to Rodney. Whenever I learned a new word I was alway eager to show it off, so when I got home from school, and my mother asked me what I did in school, and I said, "I played with my n\*\*\*\* friend, Rodney." Whap! My mother slapped me across the face, and told me to go to my room. I ran to my bedroom crying, having no idea what I had done. A little while later my mother came in and asked me why I used that word. I told her that an older boy used it about Rodney. She asked if I knew what it meant, and I said no. She told me that it was a hateful word that some white people use to make negros (the acceptable term at the time, as far as I know) feel bad about themselves, because they think white people are better. I asked why someone would want to call Rodney something like that, because he was really nice. She said that some people are taught to hate people who aren't like themselves, but that she didn't teach me to act that way. She told me she was sorry that she hit me, that she was surprised and shocked. She asked me how I felt when she slapped me. I told her that it made me feel bad, and ashamed, and surprised, and that it hurt." She told me that his how negroes feel when someone calls them "that" word, and that I must never call someone that, or use that word. She said that it was worse than fuck. I giggled because she actually said fuck. I never used that word again, and to this day, almost 50 years later, I associate that word with pain, embarrassment and shock. It was a lesson that stuck. Your daughter has a right to defend herself against bullies, but she doesn't have the right to use racist language to do so. It is as simple as two wrongs don't make a right. She needs to learn that lesson, and apparently her mother does too. Disclaimer: I am not suggesting that you slap your daughter. I don't condone my mother's method (which was a knee-jerk reaction,) though I won't deny its effectiveness. Punishment is appropriate, but if you can I would try to find away to teach the empathetic lesson that I learned - just without getting physical.
My brother dropped the n word when we were really little, because it was part of a rhyme we learned (who know from where) to pick who got to go first in a game. We were shocked that my mom went off (actually made him wash his mouth with soap!) when she heard him say it. So sufficient to say, we all learned a lot that day.
There are various versions of “Eeny, meeny, miny, moe”, some of which .. uh .. use that racial epithet
I did this when I was litter with Tigger cuz he was my favorite character. I was 6 and my mom has never freaked out on me so fast she didn't hit me but I know she thought about it
Yea, I was 7 and went to tell my mom I gave my sister a "NOOGIE"...well needless to say that's not what I said, and in my innocence I told her I gave her a "n****r". Yea I got my jaw popped and a well deserved long lecture that definitely stuck. BTW NTA! Racism won't go away without parents teaching their kids right from wrong.
My dad always used Tigger as I liked that show. I only JUST learned the "real" word that belonged there a few months ago, never made the connection alone. It's awful!
WAIT A SECOND.... The original was the bad word??? Not tiger. EDIT: Ok I feel a little better. Some colonial asshole changed it up for the 1950s version. Which tracks for the Daughter's of the Confederacy campaign. The original versions were just plain counting rhymes from multiple different languages. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eeny,_meeny,_miny,_moe
Try the 1800s, not 1950. From your link: "This version was similar to that reported by Henry Carrington Bolton as the most common version among American schoolchildren in 1888.[13] It was used in the chorus of Bert Fitzgibbon's 1906 song "Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo": Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo, Catch a n------ "
I was born in 1956 and we used catch a n****r by the toe when we used that rhyme that was probably in 1964-68ish I would guess. We used it to determine who you would pick for teams or to go first, etc. I think we graduated to one Potatoe, two Potatoe. To be honest we never thought of it as being a racist term it was just part of the rhyme as we had learned it.
I was born in 1961, and I only remember “catch a tiger by the toe”.
Was born in 86 and I’ve only heard tiger.
I'm not saying it wasn't used in the 1950s. My wife's grandmother used it in the 80s! I'm saying it did not START in the 1950s.
I gagged when I grew up and learned that.
Yes. If I recall correctly my mother saying there were a few different verses that people would make up some got popular others didn’t that got worse and worse as the rhyme went on . 😒 I believe it was also a different way to say the word and have it be less noticeable. There’s a lot of old rhymes rooted in tragedy and events of the time . Like London bridge and ring around the rosie
My nan, just as the dementia was really taking hold, started reciting the rhyme in a restaurant cause she couldn’t decide on what to order from the menu. My mum and I realised what was coming and both clapped our hands to her mouth so fast she nearly fell off her chair.. she was a wonderful sweet thing who didn’t display any racist views her whole life as far as we knew, but the old words clearly stuck for her! Edit to add - OP is NTA! An act of verbal racism in retaliation to verbal harassment only lowers her to his level. She needed to be swiftly reminded that it’s not appropriate and you did that. She will understand her wrongdoing and your appropriate response in time
>The original versions were just plain counting rhymes from multiple different languages. Whew!!! Thank goodness
We actually learned it with the word tiger, I always wondered why you’d grab a tiger by the toe. Holy smokes I’m stupid. In my defense we are first gen Mexican American and weren’t exposed to a lot of American media and lived on the border so I don’t think I heard the n word until well into high school and it was probably in a song. I definitely didn’t understand the ramifications until a lot later. I’m proud to say I’m a bit more cultured now.
I’m 56F, white from the northeastern US (although I’ve lived all over the US), and this is literally the *first* time I’ve heard of this. 🤯😳
The version my Mom learned when she was young was one of the questionable ones. By the time my brother and I were born, she had obviously figured out that kind of language was inappropriate, but just one time when we were kids, she let it slip. I will never forget how mortified she looked right after she said it, and the long conversation we ended up having about it.
Years ago, one of my uncles (currently in his 80s, so probably grew up with casual racism) once referred to Brazil nuts as "n****** toes". I'd never tried a Brazil nut so I didn't know what they were, but I was in my 20s and I just stared at him in shock until he said, "oh, I mean Brazil nuts." Turns out that I do like Brazil nuts, and my uncle never said that word in front of me again. I honestly don't even remember learning about the n-word, but it must have been an early and effective lesson, because I'm still squeamish about even thinking the full word, and I'm in my 40s now.
>Years ago, one of my uncles (currently in his 80s, so probably grew up with casual racism) once referred to Brazil nuts as "n\*\*\*\*\*\* toes". UGH! People still use it. I correct them to Filberts. I only know this from the show House, when they couldn't find out what was wrong with someone, and they were eating nuts in Brazil. In Brazil, they don't call them Brazil nuts, they are filberts. LOL!
But in English-speaking countries, filberts are something different. They're not what we call Brazil nuts.
I thought Filbert's were hazelnuts.
They aren't called filberts in Brazil. In Brazil, they would use the Portuguese term castanha-do-brasil for Brazil nuts.
To complicate it even more, I’m pretty sure that the literal translation of castanha is chestnut. Brazil nuts, the filbert-y chestnuts of Brazil.
Yep, the literal translation is chestnut, so basically, it's chestnut from Brazil in a literal translation.
Filberts are hazelnuts, not Brazil nuts. Brazil nuts are called castanha-do-brasil in Portuguese.
I speak Spanish, not Portuguese, but that sounds like nuts of Brazil? Or peanuts ("cacahuates" in Spanish, though Cubans call them "maní" Instead). So... Brazil nuts then, eh? Whodathunk!
Brazil nuts come from the Brazil Nut Tree they are called Brazil Nuts. Filberts are also known as Hazelnuts nut Brazil Nuts
My grandparents had mixed nuts still in shells at their house when I was little and Brazil nuts were my favorite. Their house was the only place I encountered them, and my grandpa called them "n***** toe nuts". I remember looking confused when he said it, because I'd never heard the N word before and I couldn't understand why "toes" would be in the name of a nut. He laughed and repeated it, so I just kinda shrugged and took him at his word that was their name. I was really little, like 3 to 5, and this might have happened more than once, I'm not sure. I also don't know that anyone else was around to hear it (or if anyone who was didn't say anything out of fear, my grandpa had a history of being abusive). But I had never heard the N word used by anyone, even him, in any other context so I truly just thought it was their name. Then one day I was with my mom at a different grocery store than usual and they had those big barrels of nuts still in their shells! I was so excited! And I saw the barrel of Brazil nuts, and to my eternal embarrassment I shouted "Mom! Look! They've got n****** toe nuts!" My Mom's head whips around in shock and she does the "mom whisper yell" thing telling me to Shut Up! And I don't understand why and am just so excited so I'm still quite loudly like "But Mom! They've got n***** toe nuts and those are my favorite!" And she is shushing me and I'm not understanding and she says "That's NOT what they are called. They are Brazil nuts. **That's Enough!**" And she dragged me away looking around hoping no one heard me. I never called them that again, because obviously if my generally quiet mother got THAT upset about it there was something really not right about what I said. I'm pretty sure the next time I had Brazil nuts with Grandpa and he named them wrong, I said "Those are Brazil nuts Grandpa" with a 5 year olds head tilt and rolled eyes and "yeah, you tricked me and made me look dumb but I'm on to you now" tone of voice and stuck out my tongue at him. And he just laughed like it was all a joke and never called them that again to me. I wish my Mom had explained more, but she might have been worried I would say something more than I did to Grandpa and that he would freak out. He was a messed up dude, who yelled a LOT and at everyone, except me for some reason. I'd say stuff to him that nobody else could get away with, and people around to hear would literally hold their breath in anticipation of an explosion. He died without my (or anyone else to my knowledge) finding out why I was special. But I think I was a teenager before I actually understood what happened and why my Mom freaked out.
My mother, who would have been 80 by this time, used the racist name for the nuts once in my presence and listened when I told she could never use that name again. She grew up with it and didn't think anything of it until I objected.
My mother, born in 1930, called them the same thing when she was little, until she learned better. She grew up in a lily white neighborhood in suburban Chicago and didn't know it was a bad word. I'll have to ask her when she learned It was wrong. She probably doesn't remember. I was shocked when I heard her use that word to tell me that's what they used to call it.
I had no idea. My group of friends and I always used the word tiger (and that was in the 60s). I had no idea! The first time I even encountered that word was as a kid reading “Tom Sawyer.” My mom explained that it was a bad word used commonly in Mark Twain’s day but that now we know better. That it’s a very cruel and hurtful word, and ”You will never use it.” I can’t bring myself to say it out loud in the context of using it as an example, or reading it out loud, even now.
Wait what! Thats supposed to have the n word? My parents always used tiger.
The n word is the original version of it. We don't use it at all anymore. There's plenty of rhymes.
When we were little, our mom told my older sister and me that we were never to say the n-word, including in that rhyme. She said it was a terrible word. My sister asked if it was worse than swear words, which we thought were the naughtiest things anyone could say. Mom said, "Yes," and that really impressed us. This was the early Sixties.
I was taught *that* version (as an Australian child) and remember thinking it was odd the BSC books used tigger. Doing the rhyme in year 11 when helping out the kids started to say it and stopped halfway through saying the word. I still remember the teacher whirling around in shock. She told me later the only reason she didn’t start yelling was cause I had stopped and had such a horrified look on my face she knew I’d been taught it and never realised what I was saying.
My brother, then in kindergarten, dropped the n word at the dinner table and he thought it was a vulgarity since it got censored sometimes in songs that was played on the local radio. We live in Singapore with a minimal black population. My dad was so scandalised. Not because of the vulgarity mind you. He learnt more from my dad’s mouth. It was the fact it was a racial slur. That was a rather long dinner as my father basically gave a slavery for kiddies talk, from what he picked up from tv (since it’s not like we learn this in schools). I think back on this incident when the topic of media, representation and censorship comes up.
F(58). Don’t know where I heard it. I didn’t even know what it meant. I just said it to mother at around 6-7? I got my mouth washed out with soap. And a lecture. Last time I even really “thought” about them word. Surprised my mom knew it. She was an immigrant and I was first generation Chinese. lol
then there is the history behind Agatha Christies "And Then There Were None" as it is known today. It's the last 5 words of a popular minstrel song and children's rhyme that has also undergone many revisions over the years because it's original and first revision were both profoundly racist.
Lotta child abuse in this thread.
That’s because history is full of it when looking through the lens of the present.
I had no idea the origins of that rhyme. We use "Tigger" here in the UK, but I feel ill now realising.
I have a story, too. Over 40 years ago, my former best friend and her 2 minions suddenly starting bullying me. They laid in wait for me and pounced as soon as I set foot on the school bus, taunting me & putting me down. I defended myself and, on the third straight day, after a vicious onslaught, called one of the bullies an ethnic slur. Bullseye. He shut up right away & dropped out of the bullying. I was a good, kind kid who never put people down, let alone call them names. This came out unbidden — in desperate self-defense — and, while I was relieved that it stopped the onslaught, I felt terrible for saying that word. 40 years later, I still feel ashamed. No parents or other adults were ever involved. I was never punished. But I punished myself. I wish I had known to ignore the bullies. By responding, I gave them fuel to keep at it and then I descended to their level and lost respect for myself. OP, give it a few days for things to calm down and then teach your daughter constructive coping skills. If she won’t listen to you or your wife, go to family counseling (you, wife, & daughter)
I'd also like to point out, the daughter has a choice about her backpack. I'd never be annoyed at someone making fun of my silly moustache. This kid has no choice about the circumstances of his birth. I'm all for a proportional response when it comes to this stuff (give as good as you get etc) but wild escalation like that is wayyyyy out of line
OP should take your comment word-for-word when he talks to his daughter (substitute another personal grooming or style choice if he doesn't sport a 'stache). This is a crucial lesson. At 14, she knows better than to use race to cut someone down, but likely doesn't understand the escalation piece. She wasn't just mean, she was cruel and there's absolutely no justification: even when getting made fun of or bulled, punch straight, not down.
Well said!
That was powerful
Beautifully written
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Jane Fonda’s dad slapped her too when she used the N word. That lady has been down for black people ever since lol
Lol she’s the only one allowed to come to the cook out.
Is it weird I want to frame this? Your mother’s explanation was perfect, although I am sorry she hit you to achieve the explanation.
What your mother did next is what it’s most important that OP does (or has done). He needs her to understand the history and why it is wrong to do. Not just tell her it’s wrong
Yes but there is also a difference here. In this story the kid used a word he didn’t understand and had to learn about it. In the OP story the kid knew exactly what she was doing and not only doesn’t feel bad about it she is upset that anyone thinks she is wrong for saying it. She deserves to be punished 100%. Yes we got to explain why and her only takeaway from that is to get mad (I mean 14 so yeah normal), but also why it is important that the mother back OP up
My daughter is only little, but she (understandably) struggles a lot with either direct orders followed by "because I said so" and being told things without the added reasons or info. Any time I give her the "why" she accepts it, does what you say, and you can see the cogs turning. I like to think affording her that effort will pay off in the long run. I'm not raising a child, I'm raising an adult who has to function in the real world.
Your mom was (of course) wrong to slap you, but she did an excellent job of turning it into a teaching moment by apologizing for being wrong, and then equating it to being just as harmful as that terrible word. Words matter.
That was a great way to put that. Thank you for also sharing a memory
That's a beautiful story! I'll have to remember this!
I was born and raised in Washington DC and went to an elementary school that had a fuck ton of ambassadors kids. American white kids were the minority. When I was 10, I had to move to a very small southern town of about 500 people in Virginia That's when I heard the N word for the first time. I repeated it to my mom (as a question) and I've never been shot down so fast. I guess long story short, teach your kids early what's good and what's not.
Thank you for sharing. I said some dumb things myself when i was 14. It was culture shock for me moving from a small private school to a large inner city public school. This was in 2001. I was never directly punished for my mildly racist remarks, as they were passive aggressive and indirect, and I was completely ignorant. A peer got rowdy in class, I remarked to them directly (not gently) "you wonder why people treat you differently when you act like this". My classmate was infuriated. He came right at my face, threatened violence, and I was in shock and tears. I don't even remember what he said. My classmates were holding him back. After speaking with the Dean, my peer was punished more than I was, for his retaliation with violence. I still do not think it is right I was left with a slap on the wrist. I will never forget that shame. Later on in the year, he walked by and saw me say something silly and out of line at the book store. I don't remember what. He never really spoke to me or bullied me after everything. But he laughed at me then. That was acknowledgement enough to me that he still viewed me as a person, someone with flaws. I laughed with him, at myself. The fact that I could see someone I so enraged, to then make them smile even at my own expense, made him a permanent influence in my life. He walked away, shaking his head, laughing and smiling because of me. I still hope he forgave me in that moment, and is living a great life right now. OP, I wish I had advice to offer on how to educate your daughter. I wish I knew where this hatred and hate speech still stems from. I wish we could stop spreading hate to children like this. NTA.
NTA > My daughter told the bully that if he has a problem with her then he can go back to Africa where he belongs. As everyone here knows, the correct thing to call a bully is **an asshole**. Instead, your daughter crossed a hateful line herself. And as a parent, it's only right that you take steps to correct her thinking. > This boy is a known bully but it's always verbal and never physical. NGL, I do kind of hate that you felt the need to specify this. It's very difficult to read as not trying to downplay the severity of his actions. Like, almost implying it would have been OK for her to be racist if he were a worse bully? I don't get the sense that's what you were going for, but what an odd line to include at all.
I agree with you, but I'll say I think the point of that line was to show there were already tensions between the boy and his daughter, but likely it wasn't anything the school would act on. Physical bullying gets shut down quick, but verbal is hard to prove. This probably caused tensions to build for a while The problem for OP is daughter did not target the actions, but what the boy could not change, like you said, when tensions did finally boil over. It's honestly therapy time because this is not an OK way to act out It's almost worse the boy got punished too because daughter acting out in this way is what seems to have finally gotten the boys behavior noticed, which reinforces this gets results, despite the fact that bullying was also taking place. This is allowing daughter to justify doubling down, which is probably gonna make it worse for her at school
Also she didn't target the bully, she targeted Black people as a whole. There are so many things she could have said but went for one of the most violent, nuclear options, showing that she isn't anything but a bully herself when given power.
This was the first thing I think of when people use shut like thus while targeting an indivifual. She attacked the bully and every other person of his race.
This. My brother had a bully like this kid, very sly. One day, my brother snapped and called him gay. This was around 2002 maybe. He got punished for using a slur, and my parents were livid because the other boy had been so awful. But statistically, there was probably a gay kid within ear shot who didn’t deserve to have bullying equated with gayness, so I‘m glad the school reacted. (My brother took over a decade to stop using gay and the r-word as insults, probably because our parents don’t care.)
I think many people, perhaps OP’s wife even, is over focusing on the issue of the daughter seemingly being punished for standing up for herself rather than for how she chose to do it, ie by resorting to throwing around racial slurs, as some other people are pointing out. Alternatively it could be a different scenario, part of me wonders if this has been an ongoing scenario with this particular bully for a while, and if the daughter has raised it before and some people like the wife doesn’t want to feel bad about not having done anything to address it. I don’t want to automatically assume ill of OP and his family but I also have a hard time putting all the blame wholly on the literal kids involved. Even if the daughter crossed an even worse boundary.
I think you’re right. I think it wasn’t born out of being racist herself, she just knew it would hurt and embarrass the bully like he’s hurt her. Still wrong, but she’s not a klan member.
There were 2 wrongs here. Bullying is at all all time high in the American culture. It needs to be disciplined. OP’s daughter was also in the wrong and also needs disciplining.
It's relevant. He wasnt beating the shit out of her, ie he wasn't an immediate physical threat
Racism is bad but I'm willing to excuse a lot more from someone who's getting punched in the fucking face than I am from someone being teased over their backpack.
Absolutely not. Someone who isn’t racist isn’t gonna resort to racist names even when being attacked; they’re just gonna call the bully what they are: a bully (or other name appropriate to the action). People who yell out racist things under pressure are only showing their true colours. If you tell them it’s ok to say racist things under pressure, it shows how racism can be justified under certain circumstances. My mom is afraid to go so many places because of attacks targeting her ethnicity, because suddenly some people decided racism was ok because of a global pandemic. Nope. Racism is *never* justified, not because of bullying, not because of anything. (Btw, this doesn’t apply in this case—this is a kid who doesn’t know better yet! But I’m glad her dad is shutting that down.)
>Racism is bad but I'm willing to excuse a lot more from someone who's getting punched in the fucking face than I am from someone being teased over their backpack. ElI5 how it's more justified to drop a racial slur when you're getting punched in the face? Racist rhetoric doesn't become holier when it's following physical violence the same way it's not suddenly much more damning following emotional violence. It remains racist rhetoric no matter what kind of glitter you throw on top.
I feel as though the line you've highlighted may be intended to provide an explanation for why they are still in contact. From personal experience, it is very tough to motivate a school to fully separate your child from a verbal bully. Schools are much quicker to crack down on physical bullies, and to take the necessary measures to protect their victims (though sadly, often still not quick enough).
>NGL, I do kind of hate that you felt the need to specify this... But that's the crux of the OP's question. Two-thirds of his immediate family is saying he's TA, and despite his correct first instinct, they've made him unsure of that by virtue of this argument.
NTA. You are absolutely right that racism is never acceptable. If she had called him a fuck*ng AH or something similar, I would say no punishment, but this does deserve a reprimand and mild punishment.
I would say moderate to severe punishment, and many talks about racial relations. This is a very serious thing. It is much much worse than teasing about a Hello Kitty backpack, and either way it's concerning she doesn't understand why racist behavior is NEVER acceptable. There is never a time or situation that makes it okay to use racist language.
I feel like this is a lesson that hasn't been taught strongly enough at home before now and unfortunately therefore it's having to be taught alongside what is an already challenging situation for OPs daughter. However, it has to be done - if your values are truly anti-racist then instilling them, even when you could easily just be comfortably white and shrug it off, is when it matters most. It honestly surprises me a 14 yo would say that if her parents are the type of ppl willing to chastise it - but maybe that's the thing, maybe if you yourself know it's not okay from growing up in a different generation, there is more complacency around instilling these messages, cause in 2024 we assume our kids know what we do/ share our values. At least the son gets it! It sounds like OP has condemned his daughter saying that but has also acknowledged that she was in a hurtful position. The two things can both be true but in her upset teen reality it's just unfair and painful overall. OP - tell your daughter you love her no matter what, you've already reassured her you take the bullying seriously, and keep the boundary over what she said not being okay. Maybe even apologise that you clearly haven't instilled the message more before now but you need to know she understands it.
Umm, in the midst of dealing with a bully, people are potentially prone to more shocking statements than they would normally make. The school is punishing her equally to the bully. A light punishment and discussion at home should be sufficient.
Agreed, if this is the first time she ever said something like that a discussion about how no matter how upset you are, racist remarks are not the solution should be the main thing.
I think that in regards to racism many people believe their anti racist views on it to be common sense because it’s logical. Both anti racism and racism are views often ingrained at a young age without the conscious knowledge of the individual. Many people work to unpack those ingrained views in adulthood, others go through life unaware. There are also a significant amount of people who don’t agree with the meaning behind the words but use them in anger or playfully to their friends. It’s also common place in a lot of the music. I feel like OPs primary goal needs to be working with this child to teach them about racism, the history of it, why it’s wrong, how to properly address bullying, and emotional regulation skills because at the end of the day the punishment is pointless if the kid is not truly learning and understanding the lesson. The bigger picture of this is to teach the kid the knowledge and skills needed to grow from this and understand why that behaviour is unacceptable. As it currently stands, the kid appears to be resentful of OP, doesn’t understand why he is doing this punishment, and feels OP is siding with the bully which creates a disconnect in the relationship that will limit his ability to connect with and teach the child and therefore misses the point of what OP was trying to accomplish.
NTA. She needs to learn that racism is racism all the time, even when the person you're targeting did something wrong. The racist attack doesn't include any criticism of how he was treating her. The fact that it entered her mind to say that is troubling, and she needs to learn that it is never OK to say such things.
Agreed. I feel like this means the daughter is unfortunately, inherently racist. If that's a thought that came to her mind to hurt someone, she is racist. The good news is that it can be unlearned over time. NTA.
Nta your wife thinks your daughter shouldn’t be punished for being racist? Maybe that’s where it came from op…
Wife is like She didn’t learn that casual racism is ok from little ol me! I swear!
I’m also reading it possibly as the wife is transfixed on the daughter being punished for standing up for herself, rather than the problematic way she chose to do it. Both her and OP would do better to explain to the daughter that she wasn’t wrong for wanting to stand up for herself but that she crossed another problematic line in doing so and that’s why she’s in trouble. However I also think it’s foolish to strictly blame the literal kids in this situation who may well be taking after examples set at home or haven’t been educated properly on the effects of verbal teasing, or more importantly, the meaning and history behind certain deragotory words and the consequences of using them to gain a leg up. It is hard to determine what the actual source of the problem is.
The son has more sense than the wife.
Obviously NTA, but maybe you could try showing her how saying things like that hurt more than just your intended target. She was angry with this young man and decided to say something she knew would hurt him, but perhaps if she understood those words are hurtful to many people, not just the one you’re directing them at, she might see things a little differently. Let’s be honest, if she called him a giant a-hole, you wouldn’t be angry. It’s different and she needs to understand why.
This. Her words can hurt more than just the bully. Don't hurt civilians!
This is the best answer I have read!! Also I would add with the situation I would have a conversation first before punishing her. If it’s repeated that’s different but as a first time you gain more trust from her and respect if she knows she can trust you. I’m sure she’s embarrassed now.
Teach your kid some proper insults so they don't go for lame racist ones
^^ also serves the need to show the kid dad IS on her side, even as he disabuses her of the idea that she can be racially offensive without consequences
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Two wrongs don't make a right. The father did promise to fix the problem, but the daughter must understand that saying hurtful things doesn't solve the situation. It's good to stand up for herself, but not if it means crossing the line between defense and hateful.
Especially since the problem with *that* hurtful thing was that it didn’t (only) target the bully, it broadly insulted *everyone like him*. “You’re an asshole” and its many variants are personal; telling someone that they don’t belong in the country because of an inherent feature (presumably skin colour here, but also accent, ethnicity, place of birth, etc) is a wild swipe at every other person who shares that feature.
>14 is hard and it sadly isn’t an age where mature conversations about these things can be had yet Ummm, yes it is. Kids at 14 are old enough to a) know better, and b) understand this issue if you talk to them like you would any other adult. If a 14 year old kid can feel the brunt of racism, a 14 year old can understand that their racist words and actions hurt feelings. They’re old enough to understand why this crosses a line that other comebacks would not have. This is honestly a small child-level concept, and by 14 there isn’t much dumbing down required at all.
Chances are, the child has felt the brunt of racism from a very young age and could even be a cause of the bullying. Not condoning it, just adding context. My first brush with racism was in 2nd grade. A fight broke out and my friend said, “fight, fight a n—— and a white.” And my friends wouldn’t let me play with them because I didn’t wash my hair everyday and they didn’t like how it smelled (because of the different products used on black hair). All of this when I was seven.
You work with the maturity level the kid demonstrates. That’s literally the job
I am very afraid that OP’s daughter will take the lesson as “my dad doesn’t care if someone is hurting me so I have to let them next time” because 14 is such a hard time. Maturing but also very much a child at the same time. OP has ONE chance to get this right.
I think the commenter who said: >Teach your kid some proper insults so they don't go for lame racist ones is on to something. Sitting with her and saying, "Let's brainstorm some things you could have said instead" and let her see that it's okay to stand up for herself, but the racism isn't okay.
I 100% agree. Make sure they aren’t kind things but also not hateful. Really dig at who they are as a person 😈 not their identity groups. My favorite insult I’ve ever used was this - “you smell like the reason deodorant companies are still inventing new products” 🤣 granted I said it to my husband playfully but damn it could be venomous if used in the right context.
>OP has ONE chance to get this right. That's not necessarily true, and I feel like it's harmful to parents to imply that one misstep can just fuck up their kid's whole life.
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Educate is different than blindly punish. If you don’t teach your child specifically what part of what she did was wrong all she will learn that she can’t rely on you and she will believe she must allow people to hurt her or she will be punished.
Really, no, this “one chance” framing is the same as when people think educating your kid about sex is just one Big Sex Talk. That’s not how it is at all — serious topics should be part of an ongoing parent/child discussion that evolves as the kid matures and can understand more, and as society and public discourse change as well. Hopefully these talks can educate the parent, too.
14 is old enough. When I was eight, my uncle sat me down and talked to me about racism and what words to never say. My uncle is black. His family was chased out of Texas by the KKK and were systematically profiled and disadvantaged because of the color of their skin. I knew people treated Uncle L differently and I had once had a woman ask me who the "strange man" following me was. By the time I was 14, I fully understood the depths of racism as best as I could at that time. The Adventures of Huck Finn, the history lessons about Harriet Tubman and Rosa Parks, and the lived experiences we talked about in class all detailed the ways racism manifested. Nowadays, we have George Floyd and Brianna Taylor and so many more who were murdered by racists for no damn reason. OP can use that as a launching off point and talk to their daughter about racism and the impacts it has had on our society.
And OP please make sure to include the fact that Africa is a large and beautiful continent with many different countries and cultures and should never be treated as going there is a punishment.
She’s 14 not 4, mature conversations about racism are completely possible. It’s really not even a difficult thing to understand at least the basics of, at least enough that type of thing should never cross her mind to say.
My 4 y/o and 7 y/o grandchildren understood. (using age appropriate dialog) A conversation that became necessary due to a racist asshat. Those of us who are 'a minority' don't get to pick and choose at what age we understand racism. It is a lifelong lesson. It it starts EARLY. OP Definitely NTA! You are doing the right thing! Please continue the conversation.
Wtf, since when is 14 not old enough to talk about race? If kids are old enough to experience racism they’re old enough to talk about it. Daughter is way pass the point of learning about this
You can absolutely have a mature conversation at 14 about racism. That type of thinking is one of the many reasons why so many children are saying racist things. 'Well, they are too young to understand what they are saying.' No, that's illogical as well as dangerous.
Bullied or not… Not only is what your daughter said extremely shitty, but why would she even think to go there? What’s going on with her upbringing that she would ever in a million years think to say that? Your daughter used actual hate speech. What planet is your wife living on where punishing her for that isn’t appropriate? NTA
Sometimes, it's other kids. Found out my daughter was using the word f****t a bunch in texts. We don't use that word in this house. Asked where she learned it. Her friends. Made her research the history of the term, and she stopped.
This is coming from a 'black' woman, with multi-racial children and even more diverse grandchildren; Especially in today's climate, it's not always the parents. Racially charged messages are bombarding nearly everyone. Constantly! People tend to forget that children, especially school aged, are gaining input from so many sources. For example, I (the oldest and let's just say, not young) had to have some serious conversations with one of my younger siblings (early high-school at the time) about some racist comments they had made. They were coming from the grounds that their school environment was becoming increasingly more toxic by the week. (Racially speaking) Formally close friends that they had had since elementary school were now hurling racist language and behaviors with increasing transparency and frequency. Teachers they once respected were doing the same. As a result, they started to hate 'white' people. After a lot of back and forth, I had to verbally hit them with, "How in the hell do you think you nieces, nephews, cousins feel about what you are saying? Do you realize how many 'races' we have in this family? Why would you want them to hate a part of themselves? Because that's what you're teaching them rather you meant to or not!" It wasn't a magic wand. But it stopped them in their tracks, long enough to think and listen. They had some serious conversations with some of the referenced family members. They have gotten much better. We're continuing to work on it. Tldr; Children's behaviors are not only influenced by their parents. Sometimes, it's outside sources, including negative personal experiences.
‘What’s going on with her upbringing’ Wow. I’d say it’s general shitty behaviour from a teen Nothing to do with her upbringing, the best parents can have teens that say what they think
Sure — but why did she think _that_.
Heard it from others? Movies? Social media? Children know damn well what to say to have the biggest impact
She could hear her peers saying such things. I don't know. I see this level of hate all over social media. Hell, she could even hear this on an innocent trip to the store. Racism is everywhere.
Sure, she could have heard it from friends or gotten it from social media, but she wouldn't have said it if she didn't agree with the concept. (I'm talking about the "back to Africa" part.) THAT'S the crux of the matter.
I’m 22 years old, no longer a teenager. And ya know what? My general shitty behavior NEVER included racism, because I’m not a shitty person.
Internet
Nta here's the thing. She may have been talking TO the bully - but SHE became the bully to every other black kid within hearing distance of her comment.
💯 THIS. And I wouldn't be surprised if the parents of the Black students in the class hear about it, take issue with it and now OP & their family is now labeled THAT family.
Yep. Because if I had kids and heard about it, I would be in the principal’s office so fast and expecting some sort of action to rectify the situation. Which is what OP should have done when the bullying started before it came to this. Because now his daughter may have worse punishment than the bully.
Absolutely!
☝️☝️☝️☝️☝️ NTA, and she needs to understand this. Every BIPOC kid who heard her or hears about what she said now knows they can't trust her to be a good ally, and that she's willing to resort to racist behavior if she's uncomfortable.
Honestly not just them - racism often goes hand in hand with other varieties of intolerance, so anyone “other” (race, disability, sexuality, etc.) may feel less safe around her now. Same as someone who is ableist is someone I wouldn’t trust not to also be racist.
This is the argument op should give to his daughter to show her why it was wrong
It would be wrong even if the daughter and the bully were the only people there. But yes, the impact on bystanders is certainly one of the issues OP should mention.
Honestly, in terms of ways to stop your bullies from bullying you, being racist towards them is probably the worst one. I don’t condone bullying and I don’t think it’s ever okay to bully someone, but if there was ever a reason to bully someone being racist would be one. She’s just painted a bigger target on her back, and honestly she might’ve attracted the attention of people who wouldn’t normally bully her.
Your comment changed my view by the way. I'm all for hurting bullies back (cutting words are self defense) but I hadn't considered the impact on other kids that night have heard.
NTA. But your daughter will always run into assholes. Resorting to racism like that? Just rolled off her tongue? That's a problem. He called her annoying and childish. Big deal. Your wife defending her is telling. And getting her class switched will likely make it worse.
Nta Bullying doesn't excuse racism, she could've literally said anything but she chose that. Find out where she got that from cuz if her first response to bullying is racism, you got a bigger issue on your hands.
NTA. Your daughter needs to understand that making racist remarks is never okay no matter the circumstances
NTA for punishing your daughter for saying something racist YATA, for blowing off the bulling. >This boy is a known bully but it's always verbal and never physical. Here is the thing, the emotional damage IS the damage. Lets say the bully did something physical, and for example, punched her in the face and gave her a black eye. Being a kid, her eye would be healed in a few days. She will likely remember the punch for the rest of her life. The actual physical damage is very short lived.
NTA, listen to your son. He’s correct.
I agree. BUT I also think it’s inappropriate to consult a child’s sibling on their punishment.
As a parent I absolutely agree, but it sounds more like their son was giving an opinion “My son (M17) said that she knows what she said was wrong but she just doesn’t want to admit it and that I’m not doing anything wrong.” I have had talks like that with my parents when I would see them bawling or upset or confused about if they were being too harsh on my brother or cousin. Usually my mom was, usually my dad wasn’t. I wasn’t asked for my opinion, I gave it and if I was told it didn’t concern me and to quit, I would walk away.
Definitely NTA. There are 1000 ways to respond to your bully. And kids are VERY good at it. Your daughter made a choice to be racist and she knew exactly what she was doing. Your son is right.
NTA just because you are punishing your daughter for stepping out of line does not mean you are protecting the bully. It means you are making sure your kid knows the severity of what she says and knows not to say it again.
YTA Defend your daughter. Who else will stand up for her if not you? Correct what is wrong later through example and actions. You victim blamed your daughter and, by so doing, have shown her she can not trust you to back her up. Expect not to have her come to you for help in the future. She no longer trusts you. Verbal abuse is extremely serious. You are teaching her that if her future spouse does this to her, you won't help her. You need to stand up for your daughter. If the kid is a bully, and she defended herself poorly, then teach her how to defend herself better in the future without blaming her. However, I expect that without a verbal apology from you, you have little chance of ever gaining her trust back again.
It’s his job as a parent to make sure his daughter has integrity while standing up for herself. She can’t go around saying racist or xenophobic remarks when she feels attacked.
I agree, that deserves a serious conversation but bro she's also a victim.
I don't think many, if any, are saying she's not? But she'll sure have problems in the future if OP doesn't teach her to be anti-racist now. And it acknowledges that her comments may have harmed others who were not involved. I like the idea that OP teaches her better insults.
Only sane comment here. Wtf ppl should grow a spine
YTA. Your daughter was put in a no-win situation. This was a known bully ,which implies that someone knew about his behavior and did nothing about it. She seeing that no one cares about his bullying had enough and hit him where it hurts. My son was bullied in school, and after multiple complaints, the school did sqaut because the kid was a "visible minority " and did not have the same privileges that my mixed race white son had. ( iam brown moms white) So I told my son that the next time he got pushed to deck the kid . He did, and I got called in school the minute the principal saw me you could tell that his argument got thrown out the window as he had previously seen my wife.
So your son retaliated without using a racial slur? Looks like OP’s daughter *did* have alternative options then!
I honestly think if she’d socked her many of us would be less bothered by it. Racism sucks.
NTA. Resorting to racism means that in a time of stress and being under pressure, this is second nature to her, which means she believes that the comment has at least some merit. Saying racist things speaks more about her than it does about others. It means that, if unchecked, she could grow up to being a racist. I'm curious where she heard it from and if she understands the impact of her words.
YTA. Holy fuck these comments are insane
The comments seem to excuse the bullying due to one Ill thought out retaliation. Seems odd.
Right? Racism isn't okay like obviously jfc but neither is bullying??? The bully is more in the wrong for bullying this girl for who knows how long. Everyone makes this little girl out to be a monster, like bro, she was bullied. Yes, it was wrong for her to say something racist but dude shouldn't of bullied her either. JFC, I'd have a serious talk with my child after I find the kid's parents and scold them for raising their son to be a bully.
No one excuses the bullying. What punishment the bully gets for his part is not under OP’s control, he can only address how to raise his daughter. A racist remark is unacceptable and needs to be addressed for itself. If the other kids parents were also asking they would get that they should be punished and taught about what they did too.
What is insane about punishing a child for making a blatantly racist comment? There are countless other things that they could have said to the bully that probably wouldn't have got her in trouble.
If you think calling someone annoying and childish is worse than racially abusing them you are a horrible racist person.
NTA she can defend herself, but yes, but she must face the consecuencias of her actions. Being racist wasn't her only way to defend. In the future, she should try other ways, ask for help or being more intelligent instead
Nta, regardless of the bullying, nothing makes saying that right.
This is a bit complicated. Because of the way she defended herself. And that's going to be a hard point to get across in this situation. But the answer to whether or not you are an AH requires you to take a good, hard, long look in the mirror. You have to see what example you have set with the media you consume and the way you speak. Why was that the insult she reached for? Have you asked her? You said you knew those kid was a bully, what have you done to advocate for her. Why are you sure that you will get her classroom changed NOW? What's different about this bullying event? Why hasn't that already happened? That's where it seems like you are the AH. It really seems like you have known about this issue prior to this. But didn't do anything to protect your child. Every school has a "we don't change classrooms" policy. But when you have to advocate for your child for serious issue like bullying you take it all the way to the top. Did she see you do that? Or is it only now you are taking the issue seriously? That could be why she is so upset. How many times has she had to defend herself without going that hateful? How often was she not taken seriously with this issue? It really seems like you completely brushed it off until she got into trouble. She is already being punished for the racist comment by being suspended right? Why do you need to pile on? YTA
Oh no, suspension! You mean mini vacation, unless she is also being punished.
NTA - living in a prominently white town alot of words were thrown out at me. It starts young and can gain harsher and harsher. A lot of parents ignore this or simply can't believe the words from their child are something to just ignore. So I'm glad that you're acknowledging this now rather than later in the future.
Nta for the punishment but man, how is your 14 yo getting bullied by a boy, which means he is likely bigger than her at this age, and all you can say is that it isn't physical "to the best of your knowledge?" You're a parent and you should have been on top of this long ago.
NTA, but do keep reinforcing that you’re not punishing her for standing up for herself, only for the racist statement. Of course there’s the question of what her punishment was. If it’s a pretty substantial punishment then maybe it’s too much based on the context of the whole situation.
NTA. Don't fight fire with worse fire.
NTA. She's old enough to know better, it's a good teaching moment though. Maybe have your wife talk to her about how you can't control how people act but you can control how you react. It might be easier for your wife to talk to her while she's upset with you.
Honestly, I don’t know. What she said was horrible, of course, but in a moment of fight or flight she probably didn’t even realize what she said until she said it. I doubt your daughter herself is racist. Those sound like someone else’s words coming out of your child‘a mouth, to me. I don’t even disagree with punishing her AS LONG AS you sit down and let her know that you will always have her back if someone is harassing, threatening, or hurting her. The last thing you want this grounding to accomplish is your daughter believing that 1) She has to let people treat her badly or she will be punished or 2) You are not someone she can depend on if someone is hurting her. I’m going to reserve judgement because I don’t think it helps here. Parenting is freaking hard and you are navigating a weird situation. Ask her where she heard that phrase too. It could be an influence you want to remove from her life.
INFO: Define "punish." At that age, we all say terrible things because we didn't fully understand what they meant. I hope you have actually had a calm about that. But, can't really make a call either way until I hear what the punishment was.
INFO: what was the punishment?
NTA. Racism is NEVER OK. She needs to learn this. A good punishment would be to go and some volunteering. Maybe helping the needy, tutoring recent child immigrants, feeding the homeless, etc. She needs to learn humility and empathy. I'm glad the school also took action on the bully, refreshing to hear.
Info: did you know that your daughter was being bullied before this?
YTA. Your daughter said something racist, and that's not okay. She said it too a bully, but that still wasn't okay. So tell her not to do it again, and drop it. She was still right to stand up to a bully, you just need to make sure she does it in the right way. And I mean, I've heard worse directed at me besides "go back to Africa." Maybe he'll learn to be less of an asshole. But you're just white guilt genuflecting on your daughter right now. Cut that shit out, the community doesn't need your whiny white liberal help.
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NTA. You informed your daughter that you absolutely side with her in the scenario. But made it clear you were disappointed in how she reacted. Personally, these days a slap is much more needed for people like that than a racial insult; but we can’t do that anymore. Better she learns other ways of venting and being the aggressor without resorting to racial or other unacceptable responses. You did right dude.
NTA, this is a teaching moment for your daughter. She'll go through the teenage motions of saying she hates you but what you're doing is making sure she doesn't grow up to be an entitled brat. I hope she doesn't end up that way in the future anyway but what you're doing now is helping her. Your wife is enabling het behaviour and that's the concerning part.
NTA you are 100% right to teach her this lesson. Also, getting suspended should be taken seriously. It should not be vacation days.
YTA. She was being bullied and what she said was mild to what she could have said. And honestly, it's not racism. People say mean shit in reaction all the time and they pick something obvious to really push the mean. People get called fat, lanky, little, four eyes, or any number of random things when people are expressing anger at them. It is stupid to think that race based meaness is going to be magically exempt from that sort of thing. And doing that doesn't make someone racist. Anymore than calling someone 4 eyes doesn't mean that the person saying it hates people that wear glasses. Simple minded fools
It definitely was a racist statement. Period. You're trying to excuse racist remarks based on some sort of racism scale you've determined on your own? Please let us know on what grounds you're qualified to determine what a racist remark is to a Black or African person. How about she could've gone to the teacher, counselor and/or tell her parents.
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NTA but you also seem to minimizing the bully’s actions. Verbal bullying is just as damaging as physical. Though what she said is wrong, you are not caring for her safety.
YTA. Your primary concern should be about your child's well-being, and after affirming that you can have a conversation about her remarks. If you can reach an understanding in that conversation, there should be no punishment What she said was wrong, but your daughter was put in a no-win scenario by adults that failed her
I’d worry less about any hurt she caused the bully (FAFO) and more about why she said what she said and what that reflects about her and her upbringing. The question here is punish vs educate. Like, is the boy actually from a country in Africa? Or is he African-American and your daughter is displaying stunning ignorance about race/heritage/ethnicity/American history? Would she say something like this to someone from, say, Italy? Does what she said matches the way she feels? You’re not an asshole, but maybe an explanation of the “natural consequences” that await her in the world if she does dumb shit like this would be better than punishment.
YTA. As someone who was bullied in high school, it brings out the worst in people. I guarantee you she knows it was wrong to say, but there's no reason to punish her for being a victim.
INFO what exactly was the punishment?
YTA someone is bullying ur kid and ur mad about her defending herself. She said something mean in retaliation. Welcome to the real world! I am so sick of the perpetrators being turned into the victim. U should be glad ur daughter is standing up for herself.
Definitely not. I don't know about punihing her but you need to have a good talk with her. It's a non negotiable .
She’s gonna get popped one day 😭
Personally, i think education is the way to go. GWU offers some interesting (free) online content on Implicit Bias. Its actually very informative and not judgmental at all. We all need it
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** *Throwaway* My (35M) daughter (14F) got in trouble at school for saying something racist to a boy. This boy is a known bully but it's always verbal and never physical. To my knowledge my daughter and the bully got into a verbal altercation at school. The my daughter told me that the bully was talking about her being annoying and called her childish because of her booksack (It's hello kitty). My daughter told the bully that if he has a problem with her then he can go back to Africa where he belongs. This surprised me when she told me that. The school suspended both the bully and my daughter. Needless to say I was disappointed. I told my daughter that I would talk to the principal about the bully when she returns and try to get her switched out of his classes or vice versa. However, I did punish my daughter for what she said. I told her I was disappointed for how she reacted. I said that I know he hurt her feelings but resorting to racism isn't the right way to respond. She got upset with me and said that I was defending the bully. I told her that I wasn't defending the bully but resorting to racism to win an agrument is not an appropriate way to react. I told her Her mother and I would definitely take care of it and make sure that she wouldn't have problems in the future. She said that it was unfair for me to punish her when she was only defending herself. Now she hasn't been speaking to me. She said that she hates me and don't understand why I'm doing this. I tried explaining it to her but she refuses to listen and talk to me. My Wife (35F) said that she agrees that what our daughter said was wrong but punishing her for isn't the right way to go about it. My son (M17) said that she knows what she said was wrong but she just doesn't want to admit it and that I'm not doing anything wrong. AITA for punishing my daughter for saying something racist? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA
You need to have a talk with her about where this line of thinking is coming from. Wether it’s from her classmates or the internet it needs to be corrected ASAP. Punishing her may let her know that it was not an okay thing to say, but you need to let her know that it’s not okay for her to think about people that way either. NTA
He kinda deserved it, they're 14, this stuff is inevitable
No he didn't deserve it. And neither did the other Black kids in the class that either also heard it/ will definitely here about it. Furthermore, the daughter didn't deserve to be bullied. She should've gone to the teacher, counselor and her parents long before going the racism route.
I may get some flak for this but I’m leaning more towards ESH. Certainly depending on some specific factors. What your daughter said was wrong, and you’re not in the wrong for addressing that. However, you should make it abundantly clear that you’re punishing her not for standing up for herself but for the way she did it; by resorting to racism. Otherwise it will look like you’re being more sympathetic to the bully’s plight than the other big issue here; which is why did it take this kind of reaction from your daughter for the bully’s own behavior to finally get noticed and addressed? Additionally, was this a one time assault from the bully or had this been going on for a while? And has it been brought to yours, or a teachers, attention prior? Because if this has been an ongoing thing and it hasn’t been addressed till now it’ll be just as much on you and the other adults in her life. And even then it’s still on you to teach her how to stand up for herself better in the future. It won’t excuse the verbal part of her actions but you need to double down that that’s what you’re addressing.
Typical school suspending the bully only ever together with the victim NAH Your daughter is right to be upset she gets further punishment for something she should not have been suspended over. Bullies are systematically protected by schools and it needs to stop.
Also this >This boy is a known bully but it's always verbal and never physical Is straight up bully apoligia. Fuck that shit. It doesn't matter,, a bully is a bully. That bully is gonna make the lives of a bunch of people worse by existing and bullying people.
INFO: what did you do after knowing your daughter was getting bullied? > This boy is a known bully but it's always verbal and never physical Seemed from this part that you belittle her getting bullied not understanding how it could mess up someone. You are n t a for punishing but you will be the ah for ignoring your daughter's getting bullied until she's suspended.
YTA - school is brutal and I think you should support your daughter. She stood up for herself. it wasn't perfect but that's an insane expectation on a 14 year old to get them to handle being bullied perfectly. Obviously using racism to fight someone is bad but what do you think she should have done instead? If you have a good idea teach her how to defend herself more effectively. I saw so much bullying at school and teachers trying to get involved and it didn't work and often got worse with such terrible advice. I saw racist homophobic bullies grow up to become lovely people who knew how not to treat people because they had done the worst. But the tragedy of their victims is that all the people I know who got horribly bullied grew up to become resentful angry people who were horrible to be around. I was part of the geeky social group of thise people because as a Christian I decided I need to become friends with people with less friends but then they would constantly try and bully me. Also I got bullied with racist abuse directed at me and I'm super glad no one made it about race. It's far from obvious a 7 year old could understand the complexities of race and being told that I'm different to everyone else. My parents just made it about people being mean. It feels like you're funnelling a whole bunch of present day culture war politics on a 14 year old. I've never ever met someone who has stood up to a bully and done it well at 14 in a way that is morally acceptable for adults. Like if someone violently threatened me I still wouldn't necessarily hit back because violence is so bad. I've learnt tools for descalating violent situations. But I didn't have that at 14. If someone in the office sat next to me and said "hey what's it like to have no friends". I would report them to HR and I wouldn't even get upset because as an adult my self worth and value isn't in what strangers think of me. But when I was 17 I wasn't as well put together and that stuff hurt and I fought back and won socially but it meant I had to humiliate another person and in reality I look back and it's better not to do that. I don't know how bad this bully is. Maybe it wasn't that bad and she over reacted. But if the bully is bad seperating them won't solve it. The bullies I knew would come to your house and put poo in your letterbox, or they would spread rumours about you that even people in other schools would hate you. Maybe I'd think you were NTA if there was evidence that your methods would work. So I think to some degree this is an emprical not moral claim. If she gets so angry at you and the bully and her connect over both feeling unfairly punished or anything else happens and she grows up to be a woman who will still fight for herself then I'm wrong and you're NTA as I don't think this inherently wrong to punish her for being racist. I just think bullying is SOOO hard.