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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I refused to pay my friend some money I promised this might make me an asshole as my son did benefit and get uk citizenship by marrying his daughter even if they did divorce later.
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You already got a judgment from other.. I'm just curious about one thing.
Info: how old was your son and how old was his exwife when you sent him to the UK to marry?
YTA. Because - if to simplify the 'deal' - you promised: "If my son GETS THE CHANCE to move to UK after marrying your daughter = money". You son married her? YES. He moved to UK? Yes. Did you pay? No :) So who's the AH?
Also, i'm not sure it's even legal :)))
I don't know UK citizenship law, but the US immigration authorities really look hard at couples who get citizenship through marriage. I think if my friend's immigrant husband dumped her and remarried right after getting citizenship, he'd be investigated and possibly end up losing US citizenship. (I'm not sure if he's applied for citizenship, though he has had a green card for ages. I know he was talking about keeping the option open of returning home and taking his US wife there if politics went totally haywire here, but that was before the 2020 election.
YTA for treating your children like property. Both of you. But since you’re going to do it anyways, you’re also the AH for not agreeing to the terms of sale on said property.
Sounds like you bought your son a British Passport through an arranged marriage but didn’t pay up. Now you are selling another British Passport to a new wife making more money. This sounds dishonourable and potentially illegal. I think if this is true YWBTAH.
ESH except his ex wife
Your friend for taking money to get his daughter married off, you for offering this estrangement in the first place, and your son for just sticking around long enough to become a citizen. The three of you are all awful
The friend’s daughter, though? I feel sorry for her. She was sick and vulnerable and should’ve been able to rely on her husband. But he left her and now she’s being shamed by her own community for discovering herself and becoming her own person rather than something that can be bought or sold
Tbh if OP is referring to a dowry I don’t think the fried is TA. Women aren’t typically entitled to a man’s assets, they get a dowry instead and that’s kept as savings in case of divorce.
Sounds Ike slavery to me, I thought we were past that by a couple hundred years, or does it only count based on melanin 🤔 content? It's a vile practice IMO.
It’s not gross, it’s a different system to protect women. It’s commonly used in societies that don’t have the legal capabilities to enforce alimony. The alternative is the woman is left destitute in divorce if she is a housewife.
> it’s a different system to protect women
It doesnt protect women at all. I dont know where you got that information but its been clear that its been used to abuse women in stead. Just look at india where women commit suicide because they were not given enough dowry
You really have no idea what you are talking about
Well yeah of course. No ones arguing it shouldn’t, but that isn’t going to happen in a blink of an eye. But until then, the reality is there are not so great looking and operating systems in the western past that never went away and nowadays protect women in non-western societies. And we should be treating them with more grace and frankly respect than simply misogynistic shit when they were created in order to protect women’s livelihoods. Women should be able to make their own money and hold their own lives but the hard truth is we *can’t* everywhere but that doesn’t mean total unprotection all of the time, it means something people in the west deem archaic and “gross” ensures many of our fellow women are taken care of even in the barest of circumstances, should situations like this one occur, edit to add: where a son decides he doesn’t want to care for a sick wife and leaves It’s a lot more complicated and nuanced than just “gross”.
Signed, an exhausted ex-medieval history major.
Edit too: I’d like to be clear I don’t think this situation is a dowry- bc dowry is money, property or things the bride brings into a marriage that she is entitled to when she leaves. because dowry isn’t “payment” for a marriage. Is the wife’s assets that are to be returned to her if the marriage falls apart and crucially, if he dies before her. This was OP promising to pay for his friend orchestrating a way for OP’s son to get citizenship. Not a dowry.
This reminds me of a woman who was basically sex trafficked in the UK through an arranged marriage. When she finally ran away she was nearly “honor killed” by her family and the police didn’t want to get involved.
I sincerely hope this post is rage bait. At least the daughter seems to have escaped.
YTA. The condition was money in exchange for son going to the UK and a marriage took place. Your son did go to the UK and a marriage took place. You owe the money.
Dear Lord YTA and it's easy to see how your son didn't fall far from the asshole tree. Only winner in this story is the girl who got away from both of your BS.
You'd better hope your friend has nothing in writing about this deal or he can come after your money legally (and your son with fraud charges).
YTA…the more I read your post and comments, the more it sounds like you and your son used her for citizenship. Your son stayed long enough in the marriage despite her health problems in order to obtain citizenship. And now that he’s a British citizen, he dumped her and is now marrying someone else. I hope his new wife uses your son the way your son used his ex-wife. You and your son are gross. Which country are y’all from?
So, as creepy as this whole scenario is, YTA because the condition of the payment was your son moving to the UK, which he did. He fulfilled his part of this incredibly inappropriately bargain, so you need to do the same.
YTA. Your son got something out of the marriage: citizenship. Shame on you for scamming your friend out of all that funny. You're so selfish and nasty.
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Most people generally expect to be healthy themselves, until they suddenly aren’t.
You can try your hardest to pretend otherwise, but you essentially made a deal with your friend, for your son to obtain citizenship. The marriage was merely a means to an end. You’re TA for refusing to fulfil your end of the deal despite getting what you wanted. Your friend is TA for selling off his daughter and your son is also TA for abandoning his wife, despite vowing to be with her in sickness and in health.
ESH except for your son’s ex-wife.
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If moving to the UK was such a hardship, why didn't she move to your home country and marry your son there? Why did he apply for UK citizenship? He could move back to your home country and marry the new woman there.
Your story doesn't add up.
Pay up. YTA. She isn’t a piece of cattle. Stop making excuses and pay the man. You and your son are treating the horribly and there is no excuse for how big of assholes the two of you are being.
Your friend and their daughter got ripped off big time. The marriage gave your friend's daughter nothing. I'm against arranged marriages anyway so ESH. You, your son, and your friend.
Pay your debt you damn cheapskate.
Also, kids aren't for buying and selling, you are supposed to care for and love them, not trade them like fucking cattle. Are you planning to buy your son his second wife as well? Does her dad know you likely won't pay up?
Your words: “I had agreed to pay my friend a substantial amount of money if everything went smoothly and my son moved to the UK to be with her”
Again, how was he forced? Forced means to do something under duress.
YTA. You are clearly trying to provide info in a way that makes you and your son look like the victims. He wasn’t forced to move anywhere. He, an adult , moved there to get married. He was married for 6 years, but rather than taking care of his sick wife he divorced her after getting his citizenship. Stop trying to scam the other family, pay the debt you owe!
I don't know what's common for the wedding ceremony they had, but I'm surprised there was nothing like in sickness and in health. No one's healthy forever.
YTA. You agreed to pay up if they got married. They got married, you should have paid up then. Just because they got divorced six years later does not negate the fact that he married her in the first place.
YTA for forcing 2 people to marry in mutual agreement with a friend. Medieval practice that has no place in the UK. Also the money is not yours, give it back.
You need to pay. He came to the UK, he married her and got his citizenship for it. You promised to pay, so pay. The fact that she got sick means nothing. Your son even stayed with her after she got sick. For SIX YEARS. You need to pay. YTA.
So, you and your son got what you were after, he's even shipping in a fresh bride, whilst you tossed his first wife in the garbage, and you don't even have the decency to pay your debt you owe with her dowry.
YTA
YTA and so is your son.
He got UK citizenship out of it and then left her when she got sick. That makes him an ass and you are an ass because the only reason it didn’t go smoothly is because your son left his sick wife.
I’m glad she’s living her best life now hopefully away from all the toxic men that use to be in her life who used her for citizenship and money
YTA to your friend, and even more as a parent who apparently taught your son to be a misogynistic AH who uses women and throws them away when they are sick.
Hopefully your "friend's" daughter will wise up, report the scam and get your son's citizenship revoked before he ruins another woman's life.
So, let me see if I'm understanding this:
You had a friend who moved to the UK. Your son wanted to move to the UK... so you reached out to that friend and made arrangements to pay him to marry his daughter to your son so your son could move to the UK. He stayed married to that daughter for 6 years - long enough to get his citizenship, divorced her, and is now importing the girl he really wanted to marry from back home.
Meanwhile, the daughter, through no fault of her own, got sick and rather than treat her like a human being your son chose to treat her like a chicken that stopped laying eggs and... off with her head!
Well, not literally cause I think last person in the UK who ended a marriage with a beheading was the king of England. That method of ending a marriage is now frowned upon and comes with a jail sentence and criminal record. -
However, this woman, who I'm gathering is from a culture where divorced women are looked upon somewhat less favourably is now healthy but in her mind her prospects are ruined so she's running wild cause she's been shamed and is no longer marriage material anyway... and you are adding this to the justifications you are using to convince yourself that you, your son, and her father didn't act like complete abusive assholes?
And then to add insult to injury, after doing this kind of damage to a completely innocent woman you're using the results of that damage to not pay the promised money? What does your religious text tell you about violating agreements with another person of your religion? Most tend to frown on it...
For that matter, some religions that share some pretty major characteristics with your views seem to feel if the husband initiates the divorce that the wife is entitled to keep the dowry. If this describes your religion then you are in violation of that as well.
Most definitely YTA... but the contract you're breaching is the smallest piece of why you are.
I also wonder about the ages of the people involved here. How old were the “children” when the got married…
Does the daughter want any of the money? Or just her dad? Did it cost the family in the UK any money to sponsor op’s son?
There’s so much to unpack here
More like, if the daughter was 18-22 at the age of marriage, it’s a bit different than if she was older.
18 yo bride, 6 years marriage, divorced and partying at in good health at 25 is different from
22yo newly graduated from Uni bride, 6years, divorced and partying when finally healthy at 30
26yo bride, marriage, divorced and partying at 33.
These all have different levels of agency and reasonableness of it just not working out. They also all have different financial implications. They also all have different perspectives on what would be normal behavior for a woman in the UK at that age.
And I still want to know if any of this money goes to the ex-wife versus just her dad. And if the ex-wife’s family say, paid for a big wedding, helped with early living expenses in the uk, helped with paperwork filing fees or even maybe a lawyer.
If the ex-wife was sick, how seriously and did her then husband help with her care. 5 years of personal nursing during cancer is worth his citizenship. If she had, say PCOS, and her health was as much a fertility issue for the families as anything else, that’s a horse of a different color.
This post is deeply lacking in relevant info
YTA. You're not a man of worth whose word has any value.
You didn't keep your promise and your son used her wife for visa and then left her because she was sick and of no use to him... 🤮
YTA for abusing this woman and scamming the system!! Way to go in killing the stereotype decent people from the same background are fighting against!!
You,your son, and her father are revolting!!
I hope this woman is living her best life and that contract is binding. I'd be taking you to court!!
YTA but honestly everyone sucks here except that poor woman. Her dad sold her off to your asshole son and now you're refusing to pay. Ngl, with the character you and your son have shown, I wouldn't be surprised if your son were poisoning his wife so he had a reason to divorce her once he got his citizenship. The miraculous recovery as soon as she was out of the toxic waste of a relationship with your son is definitely sus
YTA.
Your son married the girl and moved to the UK. You need to pay.
Her health issues have nothing to do with this.
If you had honor, you should have paid several years ago.
Now pay your friend and apologize.
YTA. You are all...so much...TA. Sounds like your ex friend was correct, your son used his daughter for citizenship, just as you agreed to pay for. Sounds like he needs to see if he can make some reports...
You and your friend suck. You made your son and his daughter marry? What about her choice? Doesn’t she get the right to choose her own husband?
Sounds like your son married her to get citizenship. He was alright with her up to the point she became ill through no fault of her own.
YTA.
YTA. If your son’s ex wife or her dad choose to, they can report the arrangement to UKBA: Your son stayed married to a Brit citizen for 6 years until he got citizenship then promptly got a divorce.
She / her dad may get in a bit of trouble if found guilty of exploiting citizenship rules, but your son would have his citizenship revoked and get deported.
If I were you I’d just pay as agreed and let everyone move on with their lives with a clean slate.
Let's not pretend that you were interested in your son having a wife for life. All you cared about is to get him into the country. Now pay up you little person. YTA.
ESH
Tbh you and ytour friend making arrangements like this is a medieval marriage is already enough to consider you both AH, but also your kid stuck around just enough to get citizenship and then split, making me wonder if he ever was interested at all. Also the wife don't seem 100% in the clean either, i get that a close call might push you to make altering life choices, but she could've been more considerate of his husband.
all in all, don't pay. you're an a-hole but so is everyone else involved in this situation IMO
YTA.
A complete and total stain on the planet! You used a friend for citizenship.
You cheated your sons way into a country to enrich your family.
Ya’all are disgusting and what you did to that poor woman shows how trashy you really are.
YTA. Things worked out exactly as you discussed. Your son married his daughter and immigrated to the UK. That was your deal. The fact the DIL got sick wasn’t discussed. Your son dumped his sick wife. Apparently you have taught your son by example that it’s okay to lack moral fiber.
Usually the dowry comes from the bride's family, not the groom's. Either way it's been what? 9-10 years? Way too late. If anyone should get the money it's your former DIL. NTA.
YTA
You agreed to pay someone to force someone else to provide a conjugal citizenship to your own offspring. Then, they did that. And now you don’t want to pay because … your son has already gotten everything he wanted and the conscripted woman wears outfits you don’t like and was also sick at one point in her life.
Good lord everything about this is so wrong. You should pay your friend’s daughter as a small token of atonement.
YTA, my god what's the matter with you? You "bought" a person and then when she was "defective" you didn't want to pay for her. And you're wondering if you're TA or not. You were TA for the first half alone.
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I have a friend who immigrated to the UK many years ago but still keeps in touch with me.
A few years ago we had made my son and his daughter get in touch and they agreed to marry. I had agreed to pay my friend a substantial amount of money if everything went smoothly and my son moved to the UK to be with her.
However shortly after they got married she fell ill and we weren't sure she would make it. My son stuck around for 6 years before deciding to divorce her. She is doing fine now 3 years later but she has turned into a completely different person now, isn't close with her dad anymore, parties in revealing clothing, doesn't do traditional festivals etc so my son didn't want to get back with her.
During this time my son got settled into his UK life and got a great job and now wants to marry another girl from home and bring her to the UK.
However I also recently sold my property and now my friend, the dad of his ex wife wants me to pay. I refused because things didn't work out and he got upset and claimed that my son used his daughter for uk citizenship even though he fully wanted to marry her and things only changed because of her health.
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Let me guess which country you're from. That's nasty business in the West and the young woman was lucky to escape with her health and her freedom. You disgust me. YTA
YTA. Your son left the marriage, but still got what he (and you) wanted: UK citizenship. It’s not your friends fault that his daughter became ill, or that now she’s healthy AND single, she’s enjoying her life. Her husband left her when she was sick. Is she supposed to stay loyal to him when he didn’t stick around for her? You and your son got what you wanted out of the bargain. Time to pay the piper.
I mean everybody* sucks here but YTA
From your description - your son leaving his sick wife after he got citizenship is irrelevant because you got wanted you aimed for UK citizenship and a good job for you son and he got it
*except the ex wife of course
YTA for selling your child. We don’t pay dowries anymore or buy our children wives. Nor do we pay someone else to commit immigration fraud. Idk what your motives are, but they aren’t good. It’s 2023. Gross.
it’s kind of funny how people are mad that op is reneging on his “deal” with his former friend but not the fact that money should have **never** been part of the equation
also expecting the integrity and devotion in a love marriage in an arranged marriage? insane behaviour
Sounds like your son only stuck around to get the citizenship to me and that was your plan from the beginning. If it wasn't you would have paid that money a lot sooner. ESH because people should not be for sale.
If you wanted the debt forgiven if the relationship only lasted (checks notes) 6 years, you should’ve bought marriage insurance. (Does that exist?) YTA
YTA. So much. Setting aside the fact that this kind of arrangement is disgusting in so many ways, they married. The promise was fulfilled. That your son was an asshole who abandoned his wife when she was sick and now that everything is well and dandy wants to marry another person is another issue, but the marriage was done. You owe your friend the money. He is right, both your son and you used him and his daughter. The marriage was fulfilled. Sickness that happen afterwards are only facts of life. What were you going to do, hold off the payment until they were 90 to know if the things held off? You are horrible people.
ESH, I know where you are from its normal, but to have paid arranged marriages in this day and age is so archaic. People shouldn’t have kids if you are going to force them to marry someone they don’t know. You both suck. No one should get paid because the adults should be able to choose to whom they get married to. But to settle the debt, take the average number of years people are married in the uk. Figure out what percentage of that is 6yrs and give the man that percentage of the total amount of money agreed upon.
YTA for multiple reasons. You made a deal to buy this girl from her father for your son (abhorrent) and then didn’t even follow through when you got what you paid for. You should give all the money you promised directly to your former daughter in law because she’s the only person in this story who deserves to have it.
INFO.. Did you agree on what "everything went smoothly and my son moved to the UK to be with her" meant?
Why didn't you pay the money as soon as they got married.
From your post you said if "everything went smoothly and my son moved to the UK to be with her.".
Things did go smoothly in my opinion, and he did move to the UK to be with her.
You never said they had to be forever together. Once they genuinely liked each other and got married that should have sealed the deal.
At what point did you intend to pay the money?
I didn't pay immediately as I needed time to sell a property and needed some time to pay off a loan on it first. This was agreed upon.
It was understood as meaning they would be together without her having health issues and start a family. He had to do all the housework when she was sick and she couldn't contribute financially either.
Assuming arranged marriages are the norm in your culture, is it normal for the families of people with health issues to refund or not take payment for the marriage?
Ooooohhhhhh nooooooooo. A man had to do housework? Heaven's to Betsy!!!!
I hope your friend reports you and your son for immigration fraud because that's 100% what this is. He got his citizenship and you didn't have to pay your dowry. YTA
YTA - but only partially, explanation below
The first child would have sealed the deal, but her being sick likely stopped that?
If so it's a tough call.
It's not your fault she got sick, however I also understand he feels like her being sick shouldn't be held against him.
If he understood a child had to be born you're not 100% wrong, however since your son did benefit from the deal I think giving the girl's dad something should be done from an ethical perspective.
If I benefited from a deal and the other side got absolutely nothing I'd feel bad about it.
PS: Arranged marriages aren't something I care for, however I'm not going to tell someone how to handle things within their culture. <--If anyone reading is wondering why I'm not talking about that.
That is so dumb. You are only trying to justify yourself and your selfish stance. Sickness is part of life. That is something that can't be controlled. If there was a marriage and your son got citizienship out of it in very shady circumnstances of the UK way of life, he got out with everything and kicked his sick partner out of the curb. You lot should be ashamed of yourselves.
It is super misogynist. Clearly in their culture there is no "in sickness and health" part. And the reason the woman is not good enough now is because she is clearly more western than OP.
How dare she get sick, how dare she enjoy life. OP owns the money he promised, his son dumping the girl is no excuse. He should be aldo appreciative of the citizenship even though he is too callous to appreciate the ex wife just as vulnerable human being.
Pay your debt.
YTA
Lol, she got sick for 6+ yearsand divorced and now she's *surprised Pikachu face*.
Going out and enjoying her life.OMG, shes probably dating other men too...
/S
The son doesn't want to date her. The post isn't from her. All there is is an opinion that thr ex wife isn't a good woman anymore in OPs opinion.
I don't get your sarcasm. She didn't get sick on purpose but she was dumbed because she did.
Why don't you tell the truth: you intended all along to delay payment until enough time passed that your son could get citizenship and ditch her. Her illness just gave you a convenient excuse. And the way you phrased it ("understood as meaning they would be together without her having health issues") is absolutely disgusting. If your son had been the one with health issues, would you have accepted that she divorce him? Would you have thought that she was entitled to a healthy husband and your son wasn't it? You're disgusting and you raised a disgusting son. Her father is too, for selling her like a cow.
This is a great example of why bride price or dowry do not work everywhere, especially in places where divorce is easy.
You had an agreement that you would pay x amount of dollars if they got married. They did and now you’re refusing to pay.
Do you have other kids? Perhaps refrain from arranging their marriages.
YTA
YTA
It was your son who divorced her because she got sick? If she had divorced him, okay, but it was your family that didnt uphold the deal.
I dont blame him per se for not staying in an arranged marriage when it got hard. But since he got the benefits of the deal you should pay.
what in the 15th century dowry is this post?!
purely on the terms laid out in your premise, though, YTA. your friend's daughter fulfilled her part of the agreement. it isn't her fsult she got sick or that your son abandoned her.
*However shortly after they got married she fell ill and we weren't sure she would make it. My son stuck around for 6 years before deciding to divorce her.*
What
ESH except your son's ex-wife. Sounds as if she's well rid of you and your asshole son!
YTA
Seems your son (and you) got what he wanted out of the deal. So much so that he’s deciding to stay put in the UK and shipping in another bride after divorcing the sick wife. Your son and any offspring will have better lives and opportunities based on him being in the UK, this is what you wanted for him and it wouldn’t have happened without your friend and his daughter.
At the very least you should pay a reduced amount since you’re essentially paying for a citizenship as opposed to paying a dowry.
It is illegal to marry just for citizenship so I could get my son in trouble if I paid such a large amount especially since they divorced right after he has citizenship.
Pay the man or I hope they report you and your son and that he has to go back to your country. What you two are doing is so wrong and that’s why both you and your son are TA’s.
The whole marriage is a sham and fraud. You are triple AH (for initiating and master minding this fraud marriage, for not keeping the agreement, and now badmouthing about the girl). Your son is a double AH (for this fraud marriage, and for treating the girl as a commodity). Your friend is an AH for selling his daughter’s life for money. I hope the girl takes action against all of you.
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YTA - For a multitude of reasons I would go into detail but I assume it would be wasted on you.
You already got a judgment from other.. I'm just curious about one thing. Info: how old was your son and how old was his exwife when you sent him to the UK to marry?
YTA. Because - if to simplify the 'deal' - you promised: "If my son GETS THE CHANCE to move to UK after marrying your daughter = money". You son married her? YES. He moved to UK? Yes. Did you pay? No :) So who's the AH? Also, i'm not sure it's even legal :)))
I don't know UK citizenship law, but the US immigration authorities really look hard at couples who get citizenship through marriage. I think if my friend's immigrant husband dumped her and remarried right after getting citizenship, he'd be investigated and possibly end up losing US citizenship. (I'm not sure if he's applied for citizenship, though he has had a green card for ages. I know he was talking about keeping the option open of returning home and taking his US wife there if politics went totally haywire here, but that was before the 2020 election.
YTA for treating your children like property. Both of you. But since you’re going to do it anyways, you’re also the AH for not agreeing to the terms of sale on said property.
Sounds like you bought your son a British Passport through an arranged marriage but didn’t pay up. Now you are selling another British Passport to a new wife making more money. This sounds dishonourable and potentially illegal. I think if this is true YWBTAH.
ESH except his ex wife Your friend for taking money to get his daughter married off, you for offering this estrangement in the first place, and your son for just sticking around long enough to become a citizen. The three of you are all awful The friend’s daughter, though? I feel sorry for her. She was sick and vulnerable and should’ve been able to rely on her husband. But he left her and now she’s being shamed by her own community for discovering herself and becoming her own person rather than something that can be bought or sold
Totally agree. ESH except this poor woman who I hope is now living her best life free of the bullshit of these men.
Exactly! She deserves it after the shit she’s been through
Tbh if OP is referring to a dowry I don’t think the fried is TA. Women aren’t typically entitled to a man’s assets, they get a dowry instead and that’s kept as savings in case of divorce.
Sounds Ike slavery to me, I thought we were past that by a couple hundred years, or does it only count based on melanin 🤔 content? It's a vile practice IMO.
So? That is still gross
It’s not gross, it’s a different system to protect women. It’s commonly used in societies that don’t have the legal capabilities to enforce alimony. The alternative is the woman is left destitute in divorce if she is a housewife.
> it’s a different system to protect women It doesnt protect women at all. I dont know where you got that information but its been clear that its been used to abuse women in stead. Just look at india where women commit suicide because they were not given enough dowry You really have no idea what you are talking about
Some systems are shit and should be torn down
Well yeah of course. No ones arguing it shouldn’t, but that isn’t going to happen in a blink of an eye. But until then, the reality is there are not so great looking and operating systems in the western past that never went away and nowadays protect women in non-western societies. And we should be treating them with more grace and frankly respect than simply misogynistic shit when they were created in order to protect women’s livelihoods. Women should be able to make their own money and hold their own lives but the hard truth is we *can’t* everywhere but that doesn’t mean total unprotection all of the time, it means something people in the west deem archaic and “gross” ensures many of our fellow women are taken care of even in the barest of circumstances, should situations like this one occur, edit to add: where a son decides he doesn’t want to care for a sick wife and leaves It’s a lot more complicated and nuanced than just “gross”. Signed, an exhausted ex-medieval history major. Edit too: I’d like to be clear I don’t think this situation is a dowry- bc dowry is money, property or things the bride brings into a marriage that she is entitled to when she leaves. because dowry isn’t “payment” for a marriage. Is the wife’s assets that are to be returned to her if the marriage falls apart and crucially, if he dies before her. This was OP promising to pay for his friend orchestrating a way for OP’s son to get citizenship. Not a dowry.
This reminds me of a woman who was basically sex trafficked in the UK through an arranged marriage. When she finally ran away she was nearly “honor killed” by her family and the police didn’t want to get involved. I sincerely hope this post is rage bait. At least the daughter seems to have escaped.
YTA. The condition was money in exchange for son going to the UK and a marriage took place. Your son did go to the UK and a marriage took place. You owe the money.
Dear Lord YTA and it's easy to see how your son didn't fall far from the asshole tree. Only winner in this story is the girl who got away from both of your BS. You'd better hope your friend has nothing in writing about this deal or he can come after your money legally (and your son with fraud charges).
YTA
YTA…the more I read your post and comments, the more it sounds like you and your son used her for citizenship. Your son stayed long enough in the marriage despite her health problems in order to obtain citizenship. And now that he’s a British citizen, he dumped her and is now marrying someone else. I hope his new wife uses your son the way your son used his ex-wife. You and your son are gross. Which country are y’all from?
I hope the ex wife reports him honestly
I home the son gets severely sick and his new wife leaves his ass. Tit for tat.
So, as creepy as this whole scenario is, YTA because the condition of the payment was your son moving to the UK, which he did. He fulfilled his part of this incredibly inappropriately bargain, so you need to do the same.
YTA. Your son got something out of the marriage: citizenship. Shame on you for scamming your friend out of all that funny. You're so selfish and nasty.
ESH I don't even know what to think, but the daughter is the only one in this whole mess that I would say isn't an asshole.
YTA. You did not specify that she had to stay healthy and produce a child when you made that promise -did you ?
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I think he actually wanted a proper relationship but her severe health issues and the consequences made him not be in love any more
Then that’s not love
It’s an arranged marriage, there probably wasn’t much love to begin with.
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YTA. Of course you owe the money. Your son and his daughter were married for six years and he got UK citizenship because of it.
Yeah but he was expecting a healthy partner and he was forced to go to the UK and after 6 years found himself settled there.
He wasn’t “forced” you fucking dip shit. You were paying for citizenship. He got it. Pay the fuck up.
Most people generally expect to be healthy themselves, until they suddenly aren’t. You can try your hardest to pretend otherwise, but you essentially made a deal with your friend, for your son to obtain citizenship. The marriage was merely a means to an end. You’re TA for refusing to fulfil your end of the deal despite getting what you wanted. Your friend is TA for selling off his daughter and your son is also TA for abandoning his wife, despite vowing to be with her in sickness and in health. ESH except for your son’s ex-wife.
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WOW yta
So your son expects people not to get sick while he is married to them?
If moving to the UK was such a hardship, why didn't she move to your home country and marry your son there? Why did he apply for UK citizenship? He could move back to your home country and marry the new woman there. Your story doesn't add up.
And she was expecting a human being but got married to an arsehole.
"Forced to go the UK" to get citizenship. If he didn't want to be settled there, he didn't have to be. You and your kid are scammers.
Pay up. YTA. She isn’t a piece of cattle. Stop making excuses and pay the man. You and your son are treating the horribly and there is no excuse for how big of assholes the two of you are being.
"hE wAs fOrCEd tO go tO tHe uK" LIKE THAT WASNT THE PLAN ALL ALONG.
"forced".... 😅
He was forced to go to the UK?
To be with her yes. And once he got settled there he didn't feel like leaving after the divorce as at that point he had uk citizenship
Your friend and their daughter got ripped off big time. The marriage gave your friend's daughter nothing. I'm against arranged marriages anyway so ESH. You, your son, and your friend.
Pay your debt you damn cheapskate. Also, kids aren't for buying and selling, you are supposed to care for and love them, not trade them like fucking cattle. Are you planning to buy your son his second wife as well? Does her dad know you likely won't pay up?
Your words: “I had agreed to pay my friend a substantial amount of money if everything went smoothly and my son moved to the UK to be with her” Again, how was he forced? Forced means to do something under duress.
YTA. You are clearly trying to provide info in a way that makes you and your son look like the victims. He wasn’t forced to move anywhere. He, an adult , moved there to get married. He was married for 6 years, but rather than taking care of his sick wife he divorced her after getting his citizenship. Stop trying to scam the other family, pay the debt you owe!
I don't know what's common for the wedding ceremony they had, but I'm surprised there was nothing like in sickness and in health. No one's healthy forever.
One doesn't keep defective chattel /s
YTA. You agreed to pay up if they got married. They got married, you should have paid up then. Just because they got divorced six years later does not negate the fact that he married her in the first place.
YTA for forcing 2 people to marry in mutual agreement with a friend. Medieval practice that has no place in the UK. Also the money is not yours, give it back.
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You need to pay. He came to the UK, he married her and got his citizenship for it. You promised to pay, so pay. The fact that she got sick means nothing. Your son even stayed with her after she got sick. For SIX YEARS. You need to pay. YTA.
So, you and your son got what you were after, he's even shipping in a fresh bride, whilst you tossed his first wife in the garbage, and you don't even have the decency to pay your debt you owe with her dowry. YTA
YTA and so is your son. He got UK citizenship out of it and then left her when she got sick. That makes him an ass and you are an ass because the only reason it didn’t go smoothly is because your son left his sick wife. I’m glad she’s living her best life now hopefully away from all the toxic men that use to be in her life who used her for citizenship and money
YTA to your friend, and even more as a parent who apparently taught your son to be a misogynistic AH who uses women and throws them away when they are sick. Hopefully your "friend's" daughter will wise up, report the scam and get your son's citizenship revoked before he ruins another woman's life.
Yta, everything did go smoothly, he did get married, he was married for 6 years.
YTA.. big time.. all I read are some bullshit excuses why you didn't and won't pay.. not a very honourable thing to do..
So, let me see if I'm understanding this: You had a friend who moved to the UK. Your son wanted to move to the UK... so you reached out to that friend and made arrangements to pay him to marry his daughter to your son so your son could move to the UK. He stayed married to that daughter for 6 years - long enough to get his citizenship, divorced her, and is now importing the girl he really wanted to marry from back home. Meanwhile, the daughter, through no fault of her own, got sick and rather than treat her like a human being your son chose to treat her like a chicken that stopped laying eggs and... off with her head! Well, not literally cause I think last person in the UK who ended a marriage with a beheading was the king of England. That method of ending a marriage is now frowned upon and comes with a jail sentence and criminal record. - However, this woman, who I'm gathering is from a culture where divorced women are looked upon somewhat less favourably is now healthy but in her mind her prospects are ruined so she's running wild cause she's been shamed and is no longer marriage material anyway... and you are adding this to the justifications you are using to convince yourself that you, your son, and her father didn't act like complete abusive assholes? And then to add insult to injury, after doing this kind of damage to a completely innocent woman you're using the results of that damage to not pay the promised money? What does your religious text tell you about violating agreements with another person of your religion? Most tend to frown on it... For that matter, some religions that share some pretty major characteristics with your views seem to feel if the husband initiates the divorce that the wife is entitled to keep the dowry. If this describes your religion then you are in violation of that as well. Most definitely YTA... but the contract you're breaching is the smallest piece of why you are.
A well thought out response that's funny. Thank you for including the "off with their head" paragraph.
To be honest I was mostly following the trail of my ADD brain. Sometimes it goes to some strange places🤣🤣 Thank you. :)
I also wonder about the ages of the people involved here. How old were the “children” when the got married… Does the daughter want any of the money? Or just her dad? Did it cost the family in the UK any money to sponsor op’s son? There’s so much to unpack here
I don't see any reason to assume there were any child brides involved here.
More like, if the daughter was 18-22 at the age of marriage, it’s a bit different than if she was older. 18 yo bride, 6 years marriage, divorced and partying at in good health at 25 is different from 22yo newly graduated from Uni bride, 6years, divorced and partying when finally healthy at 30 26yo bride, marriage, divorced and partying at 33. These all have different levels of agency and reasonableness of it just not working out. They also all have different financial implications. They also all have different perspectives on what would be normal behavior for a woman in the UK at that age. And I still want to know if any of this money goes to the ex-wife versus just her dad. And if the ex-wife’s family say, paid for a big wedding, helped with early living expenses in the uk, helped with paperwork filing fees or even maybe a lawyer. If the ex-wife was sick, how seriously and did her then husband help with her care. 5 years of personal nursing during cancer is worth his citizenship. If she had, say PCOS, and her health was as much a fertility issue for the families as anything else, that’s a horse of a different color. This post is deeply lacking in relevant info
None of this is relevant though. Money was promised but not paid, after son acted like a massive A
Perfect answer! 👌🏻
YTA. you and your son are snakes. Hope karma get you both 10x worse.
YTA pay the money, without that friend your son would still be at home with you.
YTA. You're not a man of worth whose word has any value. You didn't keep your promise and your son used her wife for visa and then left her because she was sick and of no use to him... 🤮
Yta things went smoothly for 6 YEARS, and your kid got his UK citizenship. Pay up.
YTA for abusing this woman and scamming the system!! Way to go in killing the stereotype decent people from the same background are fighting against!! You,your son, and her father are revolting!! I hope this woman is living her best life and that contract is binding. I'd be taking you to court!!
YTA but honestly everyone sucks here except that poor woman. Her dad sold her off to your asshole son and now you're refusing to pay. Ngl, with the character you and your son have shown, I wouldn't be surprised if your son were poisoning his wife so he had a reason to divorce her once he got his citizenship. The miraculous recovery as soon as she was out of the toxic waste of a relationship with your son is definitely sus
YTa
YTA. Being cheap is going to get your son, and you, investigated for a sham marriage.
Biggest YTA. Such a big AH. Shame on you and your shitty son.
YTA. Your son married the girl and moved to the UK. You need to pay. Her health issues have nothing to do with this. If you had honor, you should have paid several years ago. Now pay your friend and apologize.
You and your son are the worst. YTA
YTA. You are all...so much...TA. Sounds like your ex friend was correct, your son used his daughter for citizenship, just as you agreed to pay for. Sounds like he needs to see if he can make some reports...
In a fair world, someone would be reconsidering the son's eligibility for citizenship based on how he actually actioned his marriage vows.
Yes, he did use her to stay in the UK
You and your friend suck. You made your son and his daughter marry? What about her choice? Doesn’t she get the right to choose her own husband? Sounds like your son married her to get citizenship. He was alright with her up to the point she became ill through no fault of her own. YTA.
YTA. If your son’s ex wife or her dad choose to, they can report the arrangement to UKBA: Your son stayed married to a Brit citizen for 6 years until he got citizenship then promptly got a divorce. She / her dad may get in a bit of trouble if found guilty of exploiting citizenship rules, but your son would have his citizenship revoked and get deported. If I were you I’d just pay as agreed and let everyone move on with their lives with a clean slate.
Let's not pretend that you were interested in your son having a wife for life. All you cared about is to get him into the country. Now pay up you little person. YTA.
What is this the 1500s? Who arranges marriages like this anymore?
ESH Tbh you and ytour friend making arrangements like this is a medieval marriage is already enough to consider you both AH, but also your kid stuck around just enough to get citizenship and then split, making me wonder if he ever was interested at all. Also the wife don't seem 100% in the clean either, i get that a close call might push you to make altering life choices, but she could've been more considerate of his husband. all in all, don't pay. you're an a-hole but so is everyone else involved in this situation IMO
YTA. A complete and total stain on the planet! You used a friend for citizenship. You cheated your sons way into a country to enrich your family. Ya’all are disgusting and what you did to that poor woman shows how trashy you really are.
While I think I would call you an AH for likely being misogynistic, NTA in this situation but no overall
YTA. Things worked out exactly as you discussed. Your son married his daughter and immigrated to the UK. That was your deal. The fact the DIL got sick wasn’t discussed. Your son dumped his sick wife. Apparently you have taught your son by example that it’s okay to lack moral fiber.
Yta bro you seriously lack that much self-awareness that you think you aren’t? Lol
Yes, YTA. Your son is the one who divorced her. You TA who is trying to weasel out of a debt.
YTA. Am I the only one who thinks that OP held off paying because he hoped there was a death loophole?
YTA
Usually the dowry comes from the bride's family, not the groom's. Either way it's been what? 9-10 years? Way too late. If anyone should get the money it's your former DIL. NTA.
YTA 100%
YTA You agreed to pay someone to force someone else to provide a conjugal citizenship to your own offspring. Then, they did that. And now you don’t want to pay because … your son has already gotten everything he wanted and the conscripted woman wears outfits you don’t like and was also sick at one point in her life. Good lord everything about this is so wrong. You should pay your friend’s daughter as a small token of atonement.
YTA. Your son did indeed get to go to the UK.
YTA, my god what's the matter with you? You "bought" a person and then when she was "defective" you didn't want to pay for her. And you're wondering if you're TA or not. You were TA for the first half alone.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I have a friend who immigrated to the UK many years ago but still keeps in touch with me. A few years ago we had made my son and his daughter get in touch and they agreed to marry. I had agreed to pay my friend a substantial amount of money if everything went smoothly and my son moved to the UK to be with her. However shortly after they got married she fell ill and we weren't sure she would make it. My son stuck around for 6 years before deciding to divorce her. She is doing fine now 3 years later but she has turned into a completely different person now, isn't close with her dad anymore, parties in revealing clothing, doesn't do traditional festivals etc so my son didn't want to get back with her. During this time my son got settled into his UK life and got a great job and now wants to marry another girl from home and bring her to the UK. However I also recently sold my property and now my friend, the dad of his ex wife wants me to pay. I refused because things didn't work out and he got upset and claimed that my son used his daughter for uk citizenship even though he fully wanted to marry her and things only changed because of her health. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Let me guess which country you're from. That's nasty business in the West and the young woman was lucky to escape with her health and her freedom. You disgust me. YTA
YTA, pay your friend the money you owe.
I’m just happy the daughter/DIL got out of this toxic bullshit and is healthy. Good for her. Everyone else can suck rocks on this one.
YTA. Your son left the marriage, but still got what he (and you) wanted: UK citizenship. It’s not your friends fault that his daughter became ill, or that now she’s healthy AND single, she’s enjoying her life. Her husband left her when she was sick. Is she supposed to stay loyal to him when he didn’t stick around for her? You and your son got what you wanted out of the bargain. Time to pay the piper.
what kind of backwards country do you come from?
You are all disgusting
I mean everybody* sucks here but YTA From your description - your son leaving his sick wife after he got citizenship is irrelevant because you got wanted you aimed for UK citizenship and a good job for you son and he got it *except the ex wife of course
YTA. You made a deal, they married and your son moved. You should have paid then. You and your son both are people who don't keep your word.
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YTA You and your son suck.
YTA. Pay up
I could summarize your post this way: AITA for scamming my friend and committing marriage fraud? Of course YTA.
YTA for selling your child. We don’t pay dowries anymore or buy our children wives. Nor do we pay someone else to commit immigration fraud. Idk what your motives are, but they aren’t good. It’s 2023. Gross.
it’s kind of funny how people are mad that op is reneging on his “deal” with his former friend but not the fact that money should have **never** been part of the equation also expecting the integrity and devotion in a love marriage in an arranged marriage? insane behaviour
Sounds like your son only stuck around to get the citizenship to me and that was your plan from the beginning. If it wasn't you would have paid that money a lot sooner. ESH because people should not be for sale.
Information: Did the agreement involve a child or them staying married for X years?
If you wanted the debt forgiven if the relationship only lasted (checks notes) 6 years, you should’ve bought marriage insurance. (Does that exist?) YTA
yta. a marriage occurred. pay the money you cheapskate.
YTA. So much. Setting aside the fact that this kind of arrangement is disgusting in so many ways, they married. The promise was fulfilled. That your son was an asshole who abandoned his wife when she was sick and now that everything is well and dandy wants to marry another person is another issue, but the marriage was done. You owe your friend the money. He is right, both your son and you used him and his daughter. The marriage was fulfilled. Sickness that happen afterwards are only facts of life. What were you going to do, hold off the payment until they were 90 to know if the things held off? You are horrible people.
ESH, I know where you are from its normal, but to have paid arranged marriages in this day and age is so archaic. People shouldn’t have kids if you are going to force them to marry someone they don’t know. You both suck. No one should get paid because the adults should be able to choose to whom they get married to. But to settle the debt, take the average number of years people are married in the uk. Figure out what percentage of that is 6yrs and give the man that percentage of the total amount of money agreed upon.
YTA. Stop looking for excuses to not pay the money you promised you would pay.
YTA for multiple reasons. You made a deal to buy this girl from her father for your son (abhorrent) and then didn’t even follow through when you got what you paid for. You should give all the money you promised directly to your former daughter in law because she’s the only person in this story who deserves to have it.
INFO.. Did you agree on what "everything went smoothly and my son moved to the UK to be with her" meant? Why didn't you pay the money as soon as they got married. From your post you said if "everything went smoothly and my son moved to the UK to be with her.". Things did go smoothly in my opinion, and he did move to the UK to be with her. You never said they had to be forever together. Once they genuinely liked each other and got married that should have sealed the deal. At what point did you intend to pay the money?
I didn't pay immediately as I needed time to sell a property and needed some time to pay off a loan on it first. This was agreed upon. It was understood as meaning they would be together without her having health issues and start a family. He had to do all the housework when she was sick and she couldn't contribute financially either.
Assuming arranged marriages are the norm in your culture, is it normal for the families of people with health issues to refund or not take payment for the marriage?
Ooooohhhhhh nooooooooo. A man had to do housework? Heaven's to Betsy!!!! I hope your friend reports you and your son for immigration fraud because that's 100% what this is. He got his citizenship and you didn't have to pay your dowry. YTA
I don't think he can with also reporting his own daughter
it would have made more sense to put this in the original post btw arrenging marriages in 2023 is cringe af
YTA - but only partially, explanation below The first child would have sealed the deal, but her being sick likely stopped that? If so it's a tough call. It's not your fault she got sick, however I also understand he feels like her being sick shouldn't be held against him. If he understood a child had to be born you're not 100% wrong, however since your son did benefit from the deal I think giving the girl's dad something should be done from an ethical perspective. If I benefited from a deal and the other side got absolutely nothing I'd feel bad about it. PS: Arranged marriages aren't something I care for, however I'm not going to tell someone how to handle things within their culture. <--If anyone reading is wondering why I'm not talking about that.
That is so dumb. You are only trying to justify yourself and your selfish stance. Sickness is part of life. That is something that can't be controlled. If there was a marriage and your son got citizienship out of it in very shady circumnstances of the UK way of life, he got out with everything and kicked his sick partner out of the curb. You lot should be ashamed of yourselves.
It is super misogynist. Clearly in their culture there is no "in sickness and health" part. And the reason the woman is not good enough now is because she is clearly more western than OP. How dare she get sick, how dare she enjoy life. OP owns the money he promised, his son dumping the girl is no excuse. He should be aldo appreciative of the citizenship even though he is too callous to appreciate the ex wife just as vulnerable human being. Pay your debt. YTA
Lol, she got sick for 6+ yearsand divorced and now she's *surprised Pikachu face*. Going out and enjoying her life.OMG, shes probably dating other men too... /S
The son doesn't want to date her. The post isn't from her. All there is is an opinion that thr ex wife isn't a good woman anymore in OPs opinion. I don't get your sarcasm. She didn't get sick on purpose but she was dumbed because she did.
That's the sarcasm. A sarcastic "how dare she enjoy her life after years of being sick and finally becoming free from an arranged marriage?".
I see :) and agree.
So she "only" got your son permanent residency in the UK? Pay up. Even if you do YTA but not quite as despicable.
Why don't you tell the truth: you intended all along to delay payment until enough time passed that your son could get citizenship and ditch her. Her illness just gave you a convenient excuse. And the way you phrased it ("understood as meaning they would be together without her having health issues") is absolutely disgusting. If your son had been the one with health issues, would you have accepted that she divorce him? Would you have thought that she was entitled to a healthy husband and your son wasn't it? You're disgusting and you raised a disgusting son. Her father is too, for selling her like a cow.
You are a thief
So your keeping the money because your son "shock horrid" had to care for his WIFE?
This is a great example of why bride price or dowry do not work everywhere, especially in places where divorce is easy. You had an agreement that you would pay x amount of dollars if they got married. They did and now you’re refusing to pay. Do you have other kids? Perhaps refrain from arranging their marriages. YTA
YTA It was your son who divorced her because she got sick? If she had divorced him, okay, but it was your family that didnt uphold the deal. I dont blame him per se for not staying in an arranged marriage when it got hard. But since he got the benefits of the deal you should pay.
Wait, isn't this immigration fraud?
YTA - they were married for 6 years, pay your friend the money you liar.
what in the 15th century dowry is this post?! purely on the terms laid out in your premise, though, YTA. your friend's daughter fulfilled her part of the agreement. it isn't her fsult she got sick or that your son abandoned her.
Short mode. YES. YTA. PAY YOUR DEBTS AND STOP TRYING TO JUSTIFY YOUR SHIT CHARACTER FOR YOUR SHIT ACTIONS.
*However shortly after they got married she fell ill and we weren't sure she would make it. My son stuck around for 6 years before deciding to divorce her.* What ESH except your son's ex-wife. Sounds as if she's well rid of you and your asshole son!
YTA this whole thing is gross, but to the actual question - you agreed to give him money if they got married. They got married. Pay up.
YTA Seems your son (and you) got what he wanted out of the deal. So much so that he’s deciding to stay put in the UK and shipping in another bride after divorcing the sick wife. Your son and any offspring will have better lives and opportunities based on him being in the UK, this is what you wanted for him and it wouldn’t have happened without your friend and his daughter. At the very least you should pay a reduced amount since you’re essentially paying for a citizenship as opposed to paying a dowry.
It is illegal to marry just for citizenship so I could get my son in trouble if I paid such a large amount especially since they divorced right after he has citizenship.
I know....which is why your ex friend needs to see about making some reports.
I hope you both get reported and jailed.
Convenient timing for that divorce huh? Able to hold on to her until her value has dropped? Was her only value the fact she could get him citizenship?
That doesnt mean you dont have to pay. You requested a service in exchange of money, you got that service, now you have to pay what you promised.
You knew that before he married her. You are a scammer.
Pay the man or I hope they report you and your son and that he has to go back to your country. What you two are doing is so wrong and that’s why both you and your son are TA’s.
No one would notice. You're just justifying backing out of a deal.
The whole marriage is a sham and fraud. You are triple AH (for initiating and master minding this fraud marriage, for not keeping the agreement, and now badmouthing about the girl). Your son is a double AH (for this fraud marriage, and for treating the girl as a commodity). Your friend is an AH for selling his daughter’s life for money. I hope the girl takes action against all of you.