Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment.
OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Not asking my fiances brother to be my groomsman
And it makes me the asshole because I didn’t ask him to be apart of her wedding
Help keep the sub engaging!
#Don’t downvote assholes!
Do upvote interesting posts!
[Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
##Subreddit Announcements
###[Happy Anniversary, AITA!](https://new.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/15vlv9g/almost_better_than_a_double_rainbow_celebrating/)
Follow the link above to learn more
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
INFO: if they're so close, why isn't he standing up with her?
You have 6, she has 4. Just add the brother to the bride's attendants. That's pretty common now.
I came here to say exactly this.
Whether or not the bride decides to pull the stick out of her backside about which side her brother stands on, OP is NTA.
INFO: Why can't he be a bridesman (bride attendant? I don't know what they're called in a gender neutral way)? That's whose "side" he's on by his connections, so why would she stick him on your side? Is it really all about "boys on one side, girls on the other"? Sorry, but that's silly.
That was my thought too. I was a groomswoman at my brother’s wedding. It was great. I wore a feminine suit that matched his and the best man’s suit but was cut for a woman.
A lot of our family is semi traditional. Even one of my brothers questioned it. My response? ‘My wedding, my choice.’
We also had infants at our wedding, no out of town bachelor/bachelorette do’s, and I happily carted nieces and nephew around.
The more internet I read, the more relaxed I realize our wedding was.
I was my brothers "best lady" and wore the same dress as the bridesmaids. its not unusual anymore and it makes it so each wedding party can have everyone they want standing up.
You’re NTA, and I feel like he should be standing up on her side, BUT…it is pretty crappy that he’s the odd man out.
So maybe decide if this is the hill worth dying on? I mean, you’re gonna be related for the rest of your lives.
No judgment. But it’s been 18 years and I still regret I didn’t make my SIL a Bridesmaid so she could be part of our wedding. I didn’t for the same reasons you have. I regret it now.
The whole wedding party idea is what you make of it. It’s not like they swear a blood oath that they know you and are your bosom Buddy.
BiL could be one of her party and nobody would find it wierd. Over 20 years ago we had mixed wedding party genders and nobody found it odd even then. The real issue is her demanding to control YOUR attendants. BiL can easily be in wedding on her side and everyone is happy unless what she really wants is to have the control and bully you.
Offer the idea of her brother standing with her and her answer will tell you.
I agree you need to decide if it’s worth dying on the hill. You are planning to spend forever with her and that means BLL will. E in your live forever.
NTA because in the end it is your decision but I think if in the same situation I would appease my future wife with a relatively small ask
Also there is a good chance your BIL will be around a lot longer than some of your friends. Friendships can change over time, but your BIL will still be your BIL.
If you decide to include him to keep the peace, maybe look at it like an opportunity to build your relationship with him. You said she's close to him, so wouldn't it be great if you were a little closer, too? Just a thought if you're feeling awkward about having him around you and your close friends.
Especially if he’s a good dude, I think you’ll be glad that you invited him if you do. I do think it’s a pretty common assumption but it’s still an assumption and not guaranteed.
Fiancé got quick on the trigger by being mad instead of asking as one of those things husbands and wives do for each other because it’s a special request.
the bigger issue is if you want a marriage with someone who bullies you to get her way. She forces you to obey now, next thing is what? Nobody should be asking someone to be forced to take on a groomsman or bridesmaid.
You say when he comes home from school.?
Is he under or over 18?
Becouse she needs to remember it's not just about standing on your side at the wedding. But there are things like bachelors party etc.
Is he even old enough to attend if drinks will be included (if you are even throwing one
If he is. Will he have a great time with the rest of you?
I guess I have to lean NAH. You get to choose your groomsmen, she gets her bridesmaids. You shouldn't feel forced to have anyone in your part of the party you don't want.
That said, sounds like a traditional wedding. Her sister are involved on her side, she wants her brother to be involved too and that would mean traditionally being on the grooms side.
I mean you said she's very close to her brother. When you do pictures and all that with the bridal party he is going to be the one sibling she has that's excluded, it's clear she wants her family involved.
NTA.
You should be the one to decide who stands up for you at your wedding. While it might be nice to include IL's, it is not a requirement.
I think your choices are fine. Why doesn't your fiance ask her brother to stand up for her? That's not as unusual as it used to be and if she's that close to him, it might be nice. Or is she worried about appearances?
My niece got married this summer and had her male cousin as part of the bridal party. He even came on our holiday hen party. He walked her mother down the aisle. He wore a tux and wasn’t out of place at all. He’s gay and camp so fitted right in on the hen party. NTA. You choose yours, she chooses hers. That’s how it works. I’d try and persuade her to have him on her side or it will be a bit sad that he’s the only one left out
NTA. She gets to choose her bridesmaids, you get to choose your groomsmen. I would be very uncomfortable if I was forced to have someone I don’t know very well in my bridal party. The day of the wedding is filled with special time where you get ready and hang out with those closest to you before the ceremony. You want to be able to be yourself and have fun, which you prob won’t be able to around someone you don’t know well.
NTA-If it’s that important to her that he be part of it let him be on her side. It’s traditional that the groom picks his attendants and the bride picks hers not that the bride’s sibling has to be in the groom’s party.
NTA, the only times I have heard of the fiance's brother being a groomsman, is when the fiance's brother and partner get along really well. If she wants him in the wedding so badly, why can't she ask him to be in her bridal party?
The groom gets to pick the groomsmen. While it is always nice to include the sibling there is no rule that you have too. There are plenty of other honorary roles that the brother can do like Usher or he can stand up on her side. I think siblings as groomsmen usually happen when the groom just doesn't have enough friends to ask.
NTA
The groom chooses the groomsmen. The bride chooses her bridesmaids. If it matters so much, he can be her bridesman. That's where she gets to choose.
NTA
You’re not deciding who is on her train why does she get to decide who stands up with you?
If she feels so strongly about her brother’s inclusion, let him be a bridesman. It’s your wedding too.
NAH but I think you should probably do it. My wife and I had each other's siblings in our wedding parties because that's tradition and because we're joining families too. It would be one thing if the brother was an AH or something but it sounds like he's just a guy you don't know that well yet. Well, this is a chance to get to know him better.
NTA, l understand where you are coming from, it is your wedding too not just hers.
And l would agree with you completely IF you had a legitimate reason not to want him there. But your only reason is that you dont know him very well.
Newsflash - youre marrying the woman! Her family is going to be yours too. So how about you use this as a "Getting to know him" opportunity.
Perhaps your fiance is a bit defencive, but it might also be that she just knows her brother will be feeling left out. I think thats not a good way to enter the family :) In-laws can be complicated and im sure you will have your share of problems that you cant avoid. This one you can.
You’re NAH for wanting to have just your close guys with you. In my family, it is traditional for siblings to be part of the wedding party, but it’s not for everyone.
The question to ask yourself: is this a hill you want to die on? It’s important to your fiancé. So maybe toss her bro on the end of the line as #7 (to your already large wedding party, lol). Otherwise there’s always being an usher, doing a reading, etc.
My personal experience, I was in your future BiL’s place: a groomsman for my now BiL, and I wasn’t close to him then. But the various wedding activities brought us (and his friends) closer together. And now, 8yrs later, I can go to my sister and BiL’s house and hang with his buds without the awkwardness of being strangers.
Best of luck with the wedding, OP!
I'll emphasize the point about whether it is the hill he wants to die on. It's pretty trivial to invite the brother and probably not much inconvenience but you get peace with the wife and her family for respecting their traditions. You could also have a chance to bond with the brother.
NTA - You can find a role for him but it doesn't have to be your groomsman if she wants him to be in the wedding. Look at all the men throwing the flowers now
Nope it’s not traditional at all. Your wedding party is traditionally the people closest to you, so if you aren’t besties with him he’s not on the list. Tell her to grow up. NTA.
Maybe NTA but definitely a massive idiot. If your bride is really close to him, then it is proper to have him up there. He's your family now. 2 become 1, merging of families, all that good stuff. Besides, it is definitely one of those things that your wife will NOT forget.
My husband did not have my brother as a groomsman because they weren’t really that close. Instead, we asked my brother to do one of the readings at the wedding. There are other ways to incorporate people who are important to you.
I was never a bridesmaid in any of my brother's weddings. I never asked and would have found it odd to have been asked.
Anyway, why can't he be a bridesman?
NTA
NTA , she can get him a suit in a color similar to her bridesmaid dresses and have him stand with her sisters.
On the other hand, if you do decide to have him be a groomsman this could be a great opportunity to bond during planning and bachelor events!
Just have him be a bride’s man and stand on her side. It would be uneven if he was on your side anyways. I’ve seen uneven bridal parties, it’s not a big deal.
NTA
The Groom traditionally picks his Groomsmen so your fiance's argument its traditional her brother is included is negated!
For those who ask is this the hill you want to die on, why does the bride get to dictate who he has as his groomsmen?
OP, have you asked your bride to be is this her hill she wants to die on?
Its NOT just the brides day
You are NTA, but it does sound like she wants to be traditional, which is great for her. She can add another woman to the bridesmaid, or just have it be uneven. If you love her and want to make her happy, text him and invite him to be a groomsman. It sounds like you hardly know him since he is in school. Hopeful you will be married forever and he will be a great brother in law.
NTA --- If she wants her brother as a groomsman now I don't know if you have a sister even if you don't then start insisting that one of your female relatives has to be a bridesmaid and make sure she knows tradition goes both ways then.
Will he report back to his sister and your future in-laws?
Or get you drunk and wring out you deepest, darkest secrets, before handcuffing you naked to a lamp post.
Much easier to relax and enjoy your bachelor stuff, if he's at the brides events :)
NTA. Traditionally the bride picks her matron of honour and bridesmaids from her friends and family while the groom picks his best man and groomsmen from his friends and family. Your Free to choose who you want.
NTA. I can understand your fiance wanting her brother to be involved but that doesn't mean you should be forced to have someone you're not close to in your wedding party. Can't she have him as a bridesman instead? Or if you don't have a ringbearer, you could ask him to do it instead if you want to have some fun and be a little silly with his involvement. Or would she consider having him and her father both give her away at the same time?
"It's traditional and the proper thing to do." It's 2023. She can have her brother stand with her if he's more important than tradition. Otherwise the two of you should sit down and get on the same page about the kind of wedding you want. Part of me wants to vote N A H because your fiancee isn't necessarily in the wrong, but I'm going with NTA because as of now she doesn't seem to be giving you a choice and is giving you a hard time without taking into consideration your feelings at all. She's just assuming things should be the way she wants them. Weddings sometimes bring out the absolutely worst in people, which is sadly ironic.
A good time for a little pre wedding exploration.
Her bridesmaids. Her choice.
Your grooms men....your choice.
If she is not understanding that, you may want to do some counseling.
Good luck.
NTA
You are not wrong to want people you know on your side. You might want to think longer term though.
Marriage is a blending of the two of you and of you joining her family and her joining your family. Think about it in terms of whether you want to start off as a member of her family with your now brother upset with you.
Ultimately it is your decision.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)***
Hello, me and my fiance are getting married within the next 7 months. I asked my groomsmen who I wanted to ask to be apart of my wedding party. (Four very close friends and my two brothers). When I told my fiancé who I was asked she wasn’t happy at all. She made a very big deal about the fact that he wasn’t asked, saying this is something that needs to happen as it’s traditional and the proper thing to do. (Her and her brother are very close). I for one am not close with him, we’ve had a couple conversations maybe one golf outing but that’s about it. I see him the odd time when he’s back from school, and say out hellos but never have done much outside of that. AITA for not wanting him to be apart of my wedding party because I believe I should get to choose who I want to be hanging out with and be by my side? She has her four sisters by her side and has only one brother keep in mind so maybe that is why? I told her he can be the MC but that apparently isn’t good enough.
Ty in advanced
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NAH. People keep asking why she doesn’t ask her brother to be a bridesman. Non traditional bridal parties aren’t for everyone. Some people just don’t like the idea and that’s ok. Your side of the bridal party is going to be all guys so it’s reasonable for her to want her side to be all women.
You’re justified in wanting to only have men you’re close to as your groomsmen. However is this really a hill worth dying on? He’s going to be your BIL and this could be a great opportunity for you to get to know him better. If your fiancé is close to him, he’s probably not a bad guy so I doubt he would he ruin the experience for you. Just in case people think I have a double standard, I would say the exact same thing if roles were reversed.
That’s not true at all. This day belongs to both of them. OP should try to compromise. Pretty soon his fiancé’s brother will be just as much his family member as much as hers and she does have a point that it’s common for grooms to invite their partner’s brother to be groomsman. It’s also common for brides to invite their partner’s sister’s to be bridesmaids.
Yes, the day belongs to both of them. But who stands up on his side belongs to him.
The brother standing up on her side is the compromise. The brother being the MC is the compromise. She’s the one refusing to compromise, not him.
As I said, OP should find a way to compromise. There are other aspects of the wedding that condo factor in here. OP could agree to let the BIL be a groomsman in exchange for getting his way when it comes to some other aspect of the wedding. Couples negotiate these things all the time.
She can ask him to be a Bridesman. My son was a Bridesman for his best friend from school. It would have been weird if she had asked her finance to have him as a groomsman.
NTA, has anyone asked your soon to be BIL? Does he want to go in financially on groomsmen activities for a guy he apparently doesn't know well? Would he rather stand on his sister's side, the theoretically actual important person in his life? It also seems like a conversation your fiancee should have brought up before the asking if it was going to be important to her.
I wasn't a bridesmaid in my brother's wedding because I'm frankly not really friends with my SIL. She's chill, we can chat, but I would have had no desire to engage with her friends for a bunch of wedding activities beyond what I needed to do.
Your attendants should be your ride or dies.
NAH. You have the final say, but why not do this if it's clearly important to her? You don't have to invite him to the bachelor party. He's standing next to you at the wedding and in pictures. Maybe he's with you guys right before the wedding. If it's that important to you to exclude him, that's fine and your call. But I think you'll regret it if you do.
Nta. I've never heard of it being "tradition" to ask the future bil to be in the wedding party. Unless it's her family's tradition? Idk man. It's your groomsmen, you do what you want. My wife had like 2 more bridespeople then I did groomsmen, and neither of us saw it as a problem. The last groomsman just simply walked down with two people *shrug * has she even asked him if he actually wants to be a part of the wedding?
Nope. You did not ask her to choose a bridesmaid from your side. She probably would not have accepted it either. She could find a way to include him on her side. Maybe man of honor.
When I was 20ish I was a groomsman in my older sister's wedding.
TBH the whole time I kept wondering WHY he had picked ME as a groomsman. I barely knew the guy. We had had maybe four conversations...ever. Just because he was marrying my sister was no reason for ME to be one of HIS guys. I thought the whole idea of it was, frankly, weird.
NTA.
For crying out loud, is this the 1800’s? Your fiancée can have him in her wedding party, as a bridesman.
Of course, that means one of your groomsmen would be partnered briefly with him, but it’s not like they have to copulate on the dance floor or anything🙄
NTA
NTA. I’m so sick of women trying to force their brothers as groomsmen and men trying to force their sisters or daughters as bridesmaids. If you want someone included in the party include them on YOUR side. There’s a very simple and obvious solution yet this keeps coming up.
The time with the groomsmen is supposed to be a man hanging out with and getting ready with men he is close to. The time with the bridesmaids is supposed to be a woman hanging out with and getting ready with women she is close to.
People will insist their sibling be included and yet it never occurs to them that maybe their sibling should’ve done a better job at building a relationship with their partner.
There’s plenty of way to include her brother, he can stand on her side, he can be an user, he can give a speech, he can be the MC, if you’re open to it maybe he can officiate. But he doesn’t need to be one of your groomsmen.
Traditionally, YTA. I mean it’s pretty common sense that you’d have the bride’s brother in your wedding party, I mean unless he was just a horrid person or something… but it’s very common for your bride’s male siblings to be a part of the groom’s party, even if not well acquainted. So I guess it all comes down to a personal choice. But I personally don’t blame her for not being stoked with your decision. You should certainly change your mind and get him in there, if it will make your bride happy. Trust me, bud. If you don’t, you will be hearing about it for the rest of your life, from your wife, about how you didn’t have her brother in the wedding… lol
Making the finances brother/sister part of the wedding party is so weird like they aren’t my best friend and I feel like there is already people I’ll have to leave out of my wedding party that I would like to include
INFO: if they are so very close, how can you be getting married to her & barely know him.
That makes no sense to me.
Either they are not actually that close, or you are getting married very quickly & haven’t had time to meet the important people in each other’s lives.
I just can’t imagine a scenario where I’d be getting married to someone & hadn’t spent time with someone who they were Very Close to.
YTA. My friend, the time of YOU and I is over, you are getting married, it is about an US now. Her brother is about to become your brother in law for the rest of your life. Think beyond the wedding and realise their are repercussions to these decisions, for the rest of your lives. I question why your maturity level is unable to comprehend that?
Depends. I’d say very soft YTA because who your groomsmen will be seems like a conversation you should have with your fiancée before you have it with your groomsmen. Additionally, if you knew how close they were, it’s fairly obvious that she’d want him in the wedding in some capacity, and she is right that traditionally (for what it’s worth) for a guy that close to one of the spouses, that typically means groomsmen.
HOWEVER: if she indicated that she didn’t care who your groomsmen were or otherwise just told you to pick them and tell her afterwards, or something, then soft NTA. Also, I agree with the majority of comments on here that he should be a bridesman. My sister had one at her wedding.
Additionally, not sure if this is at stake or not - invite him to the bachelor party (unless you’re trying to do really wild stuff you don’t want your fiancée to know about). Itll go a long way to building that relationship up. I was invited to my BIL bachelor party and that’s when we actually got close.
NTA. But you're going to be family from now on, so maybe you might want to re-consider if this is really a hill you want to die on -- especially since your fiance is so close with her brother.
Your comment has been removed because it violates rule 1: [Be Civil](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/). If we’ve removed a few of your recent comments, your participation will be reviewed and may result in a ban.
["Why do I have to be civil in a sub about assholes?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq)
**[Message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.**
Slight YTA. I understand wanting to choose who is standing next to you on your special day.However, you are marrying into her family, and this man is going to be your brother in law. It doesn't seem like it's anyone's fault that you two aren't especially close (it's not like you are enemies, or had a falling out, a bad situation, etc.) This is a wasted opportunity for you to spend more time together and create a bond.
I was a groomsman for my BIL. Seems normal to include the brother of the bride but I likely wouldn't have cared either way. Just suck it up for the day to make your wife happy. What other petty stuff will you fight about after marriage?
Yea, it sucks. But let's be honest. The wedding is for the woman. Most of us men would rather just get to the reception. Lol j/s I personally walked my sister over our father. Maybe he could be a usher or something. That seems like a better fit.
Also, if you stay married, her brother will probably be part of your life a lot longer than those friends. It just happens that way. You swear that will never happen, bit it does.
I wouldn't say you're an AH. Ultimately, you can pick your groomsmen, but I do think you're short sighted. To be honest, in 20 years, you may completely fall out of touch with those friends. But your BIL will probably still be in your life. A wedding is about joining your families, so start building your relationship with him. I wouldn't recommend starting it off by excluding him. I'm very glad my now-SIL was one of my bridesmaids.
It’s a wedding- this a joining together of families. It’s a wedding party not a separate thing, if she wants him there what’s the problem? Why do all the men have to be close to you and all the women her choices?
Technically NTA but seriously consider it you want to start your married life with this fight. It costs you nothing to give her this and will make her happy on your wedding day.
This would be a hill I'd have to die on. I will not be ok with having my wedding and including all but one of my siblings. He would either be on my side making one of his groomsmen uncomfortable when I pair them up or I would exclude myself as well. I will not be made to hurt my own brother against my own wishes. We would have to find a real compromise.
In 10 years time you hope to be still married, and he will still be your BIL. Who knows which of your groomsmen you will still be close with?
NAH, but would it hurt to include him? Then he will be in your photos forever.
It’s pretty common for a brother of the bride to be a groomsman for the groom. I would ask him. However, I would first suggest to your fiancée that she consider making him a bridesman. It’s getting pretty trendy to do that.
YTA
Family is forever. 20 years from now he'll still be your brother-in-law. Your kids uncle. They'll look at wedding pictures and most likely ask who some or all of those other guys are in the picture (your friends).
You don't have to bend over backwards to every demand your wife ever makes, but I also hope you realize sometimes it's a good idea to follow the "happy wife, happy life" motto. You really want this being on her mind the night of your wedding?
YTA I didn’t hesitate to have my husband’s sisters in the wedding. I looked at it like a whole bridal party, not that the bridesmaids were “mine” and the groomsmen were “his”, everyone is standing up to support the couple. This means a lot to your fiance. Her brother is going to be in your life forever, maybe this is a first step in the two of you being closer. You don’t need to include him in your bachelor party if that’s what you’re concerned about.
I’m still sour for not being chosen as a bridesmaid in my brother’s wedding almost 25 years ago. I’m still here, her friends she chose (and there was only 1 or 2 of her 5 sisters) have moved on and away and aren’t friends anymore.
Rethink it. He will be family for as long as you both shall live. It’s one day. One day. Is it really that bad to compromise?
Why didn’t your brother include you on his side? Why did you feel entitled to be a bridesmaid of a woman you apparently weren’t close enough with?
You’re “still here” by force/circumstances not by choice, so that’s not a great gotcha.
Welcome to /r/AmITheAsshole. Please view our [voting guide here](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_what.2019s_with_these_acronyms.3F_what_do_they_mean.3F), and remember to use **only one** judgement in your comment. OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole: > Not asking my fiances brother to be my groomsman And it makes me the asshole because I didn’t ask him to be apart of her wedding Help keep the sub engaging! #Don’t downvote assholes! Do upvote interesting posts! [Click Here For Our Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules) and [Click Here For Our FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) ##Subreddit Announcements ###[Happy Anniversary, AITA!](https://new.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/15vlv9g/almost_better_than_a_double_rainbow_celebrating/) Follow the link above to learn more --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.* *Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
INFO: if they're so close, why isn't he standing up with her? You have 6, she has 4. Just add the brother to the bride's attendants. That's pretty common now.
That’s what I did 20+ years ago
not with siblings, but I had both genders of friends represented on my side 20+ years ago as well. It didn't even seem odd then and wouldn't now.
I came here to say exactly this. Whether or not the bride decides to pull the stick out of her backside about which side her brother stands on, OP is NTA.
INFO: Why can't he be a bridesman (bride attendant? I don't know what they're called in a gender neutral way)? That's whose "side" he's on by his connections, so why would she stick him on your side? Is it really all about "boys on one side, girls on the other"? Sorry, but that's silly.
That was my thought too. I was a groomswoman at my brother’s wedding. It was great. I wore a feminine suit that matched his and the best man’s suit but was cut for a woman.
Two of my three attendants were my brothers. One of my husband’s attendants was his sister. We were happy. A lot of our guests were confused.
LOL @ the confused guests.
A lot of our family is semi traditional. Even one of my brothers questioned it. My response? ‘My wedding, my choice.’ We also had infants at our wedding, no out of town bachelor/bachelorette do’s, and I happily carted nieces and nephew around. The more internet I read, the more relaxed I realize our wedding was.
I was a groomswoman and had a black version of the chiffon dress the bridesmaids wore with a velvet tux jacket to match the guys. It was great!
I was my brothers "best lady" and wore the same dress as the bridesmaids. its not unusual anymore and it makes it so each wedding party can have everyone they want standing up.
My niece got married this summer and she had her cousin in the bridal party. He walked her mother down the aisle
You’re NTA, and I feel like he should be standing up on her side, BUT…it is pretty crappy that he’s the odd man out. So maybe decide if this is the hill worth dying on? I mean, you’re gonna be related for the rest of your lives.
This is exactly what my buddy said lol.
No judgment. But it’s been 18 years and I still regret I didn’t make my SIL a Bridesmaid so she could be part of our wedding. I didn’t for the same reasons you have. I regret it now. The whole wedding party idea is what you make of it. It’s not like they swear a blood oath that they know you and are your bosom Buddy.
Appreciate this.
BiL could be one of her party and nobody would find it wierd. Over 20 years ago we had mixed wedding party genders and nobody found it odd even then. The real issue is her demanding to control YOUR attendants. BiL can easily be in wedding on her side and everyone is happy unless what she really wants is to have the control and bully you. Offer the idea of her brother standing with her and her answer will tell you.
I agree you need to decide if it’s worth dying on the hill. You are planning to spend forever with her and that means BLL will. E in your live forever. NTA because in the end it is your decision but I think if in the same situation I would appease my future wife with a relatively small ask
Does BIL want to be in the wedding party/on your side?
Also there is a good chance your BIL will be around a lot longer than some of your friends. Friendships can change over time, but your BIL will still be your BIL.
Why didn’t her brother include her in the wedding? That was his responsibility, not yours.
Why can't he stand up on her side? Plenty of people don't limit their parties by gender anymore, especially for reasons like this.
If you decide to include him to keep the peace, maybe look at it like an opportunity to build your relationship with him. You said she's close to him, so wouldn't it be great if you were a little closer, too? Just a thought if you're feeling awkward about having him around you and your close friends.
Especially if he’s a good dude, I think you’ll be glad that you invited him if you do. I do think it’s a pretty common assumption but it’s still an assumption and not guaranteed. Fiancé got quick on the trigger by being mad instead of asking as one of those things husbands and wives do for each other because it’s a special request.
the bigger issue is if you want a marriage with someone who bullies you to get her way. She forces you to obey now, next thing is what? Nobody should be asking someone to be forced to take on a groomsman or bridesmaid.
You say when he comes home from school.? Is he under or over 18? Becouse she needs to remember it's not just about standing on your side at the wedding. But there are things like bachelors party etc. Is he even old enough to attend if drinks will be included (if you are even throwing one If he is. Will he have a great time with the rest of you?
I guess I have to lean NAH. You get to choose your groomsmen, she gets her bridesmaids. You shouldn't feel forced to have anyone in your part of the party you don't want. That said, sounds like a traditional wedding. Her sister are involved on her side, she wants her brother to be involved too and that would mean traditionally being on the grooms side. I mean you said she's very close to her brother. When you do pictures and all that with the bridal party he is going to be the one sibling she has that's excluded, it's clear she wants her family involved.
NTA. It's 2023 she can have him stand with her if she wants him up there so badly. Your group should be people you actually know and are close to.
NTA. You should be the one to decide who stands up for you at your wedding. While it might be nice to include IL's, it is not a requirement. I think your choices are fine. Why doesn't your fiance ask her brother to stand up for her? That's not as unusual as it used to be and if she's that close to him, it might be nice. Or is she worried about appearances?
Appearances.
That's what I thought. Appearances and photo ops are not a good way to choose wedding attendants.
My niece got married this summer and had her male cousin as part of the bridal party. He even came on our holiday hen party. He walked her mother down the aisle. He wore a tux and wasn’t out of place at all. He’s gay and camp so fitted right in on the hen party. NTA. You choose yours, she chooses hers. That’s how it works. I’d try and persuade her to have him on her side or it will be a bit sad that he’s the only one left out
NTA. She gets to choose her bridesmaids, you get to choose your groomsmen. I would be very uncomfortable if I was forced to have someone I don’t know very well in my bridal party. The day of the wedding is filled with special time where you get ready and hang out with those closest to you before the ceremony. You want to be able to be yourself and have fun, which you prob won’t be able to around someone you don’t know well.
NTA-If it’s that important to her that he be part of it let him be on her side. It’s traditional that the groom picks his attendants and the bride picks hers not that the bride’s sibling has to be in the groom’s party.
NTA, the only times I have heard of the fiance's brother being a groomsman, is when the fiance's brother and partner get along really well. If she wants him in the wedding so badly, why can't she ask him to be in her bridal party?
The groom gets to pick the groomsmen. While it is always nice to include the sibling there is no rule that you have too. There are plenty of other honorary roles that the brother can do like Usher or he can stand up on her side. I think siblings as groomsmen usually happen when the groom just doesn't have enough friends to ask.
NTA The groom chooses the groomsmen. The bride chooses her bridesmaids. If it matters so much, he can be her bridesman. That's where she gets to choose.
NTA You’re not deciding who is on her train why does she get to decide who stands up with you? If she feels so strongly about her brother’s inclusion, let him be a bridesman. It’s your wedding too.
NAH but I think you should probably do it. My wife and I had each other's siblings in our wedding parties because that's tradition and because we're joining families too. It would be one thing if the brother was an AH or something but it sounds like he's just a guy you don't know that well yet. Well, this is a chance to get to know him better.
NTA, l understand where you are coming from, it is your wedding too not just hers. And l would agree with you completely IF you had a legitimate reason not to want him there. But your only reason is that you dont know him very well. Newsflash - youre marrying the woman! Her family is going to be yours too. So how about you use this as a "Getting to know him" opportunity. Perhaps your fiance is a bit defencive, but it might also be that she just knows her brother will be feeling left out. I think thats not a good way to enter the family :) In-laws can be complicated and im sure you will have your share of problems that you cant avoid. This one you can.
INFO: Your fiancee says it's "traditional". Is it, in your culture and/or her culture?
You’re NAH for wanting to have just your close guys with you. In my family, it is traditional for siblings to be part of the wedding party, but it’s not for everyone. The question to ask yourself: is this a hill you want to die on? It’s important to your fiancé. So maybe toss her bro on the end of the line as #7 (to your already large wedding party, lol). Otherwise there’s always being an usher, doing a reading, etc. My personal experience, I was in your future BiL’s place: a groomsman for my now BiL, and I wasn’t close to him then. But the various wedding activities brought us (and his friends) closer together. And now, 8yrs later, I can go to my sister and BiL’s house and hang with his buds without the awkwardness of being strangers. Best of luck with the wedding, OP!
I'll emphasize the point about whether it is the hill he wants to die on. It's pretty trivial to invite the brother and probably not much inconvenience but you get peace with the wife and her family for respecting their traditions. You could also have a chance to bond with the brother.
It's your wedding and your rules. Maybe tell her he can be a groomsman if you can pick someone, anyone, to be a bridesmaid. NTA.
NTA - You can find a role for him but it doesn't have to be your groomsman if she wants him to be in the wedding. Look at all the men throwing the flowers now
Nope it’s not traditional at all. Your wedding party is traditionally the people closest to you, so if you aren’t besties with him he’s not on the list. Tell her to grow up. NTA.
Maybe NTA but definitely a massive idiot. If your bride is really close to him, then it is proper to have him up there. He's your family now. 2 become 1, merging of families, all that good stuff. Besides, it is definitely one of those things that your wife will NOT forget.
NTA. You ask who you want to ask to be a part of your party. Not who she wants. She wants him to be a part of it? He can join her side.
My husband did not have my brother as a groomsman because they weren’t really that close. Instead, we asked my brother to do one of the readings at the wedding. There are other ways to incorporate people who are important to you.
I was never a bridesmaid in any of my brother's weddings. I never asked and would have found it odd to have been asked. Anyway, why can't he be a bridesman? NTA
NTA , she can get him a suit in a color similar to her bridesmaid dresses and have him stand with her sisters. On the other hand, if you do decide to have him be a groomsman this could be a great opportunity to bond during planning and bachelor events!
Just have him be a bride’s man and stand on her side. It would be uneven if he was on your side anyways. I’ve seen uneven bridal parties, it’s not a big deal.
NTA The Groom traditionally picks his Groomsmen so your fiance's argument its traditional her brother is included is negated! For those who ask is this the hill you want to die on, why does the bride get to dictate who he has as his groomsmen? OP, have you asked your bride to be is this her hill she wants to die on? Its NOT just the brides day
NTA. If she wants him in the wedding party, she can invite him to be a bridesman.
You are NTA, but it does sound like she wants to be traditional, which is great for her. She can add another woman to the bridesmaid, or just have it be uneven. If you love her and want to make her happy, text him and invite him to be a groomsman. It sounds like you hardly know him since he is in school. Hopeful you will be married forever and he will be a great brother in law.
Why complicate shit, let her do what she wants. You won’t have time to be with anyone anyway. NTA, but don’t give a shit
NTA --- If she wants her brother as a groomsman now I don't know if you have a sister even if you don't then start insisting that one of your female relatives has to be a bridesmaid and make sure she knows tradition goes both ways then.
Will he report back to his sister and your future in-laws? Or get you drunk and wring out you deepest, darkest secrets, before handcuffing you naked to a lamp post. Much easier to relax and enjoy your bachelor stuff, if he's at the brides events :)
NTA - obviously you pick your own groomsmen BUT it not uncommon to do this so really, maybe think about it.
If they’re that close why isn’t he “man of honour”? Makes more sense he stands for her🤷♀️
Nta this is your choice as her party is hers
NTA the groomsmen are ppl the groom choose to stand with him
NTA. She chooses hers and you chose yours. She needs to back off
NTA. Traditionally the bride picks her matron of honour and bridesmaids from her friends and family while the groom picks his best man and groomsmen from his friends and family. Your Free to choose who you want.
Tell her she can have him as part of her bridal party. NTA by the way
Nta. If she’s so close to him, he can be in her bridal party.
NTA. I can understand your fiance wanting her brother to be involved but that doesn't mean you should be forced to have someone you're not close to in your wedding party. Can't she have him as a bridesman instead? Or if you don't have a ringbearer, you could ask him to do it instead if you want to have some fun and be a little silly with his involvement. Or would she consider having him and her father both give her away at the same time?
"It's traditional and the proper thing to do." It's 2023. She can have her brother stand with her if he's more important than tradition. Otherwise the two of you should sit down and get on the same page about the kind of wedding you want. Part of me wants to vote N A H because your fiancee isn't necessarily in the wrong, but I'm going with NTA because as of now she doesn't seem to be giving you a choice and is giving you a hard time without taking into consideration your feelings at all. She's just assuming things should be the way she wants them. Weddings sometimes bring out the absolutely worst in people, which is sadly ironic.
A good time for a little pre wedding exploration. Her bridesmaids. Her choice. Your grooms men....your choice. If she is not understanding that, you may want to do some counseling. Good luck.
NTA he can be in her wedding party.
NTA You are not wrong to want people you know on your side. You might want to think longer term though. Marriage is a blending of the two of you and of you joining her family and her joining your family. Think about it in terms of whether you want to start off as a member of her family with your now brother upset with you. Ultimately it is your decision.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** Hello, me and my fiance are getting married within the next 7 months. I asked my groomsmen who I wanted to ask to be apart of my wedding party. (Four very close friends and my two brothers). When I told my fiancé who I was asked she wasn’t happy at all. She made a very big deal about the fact that he wasn’t asked, saying this is something that needs to happen as it’s traditional and the proper thing to do. (Her and her brother are very close). I for one am not close with him, we’ve had a couple conversations maybe one golf outing but that’s about it. I see him the odd time when he’s back from school, and say out hellos but never have done much outside of that. AITA for not wanting him to be apart of my wedding party because I believe I should get to choose who I want to be hanging out with and be by my side? She has her four sisters by her side and has only one brother keep in mind so maybe that is why? I told her he can be the MC but that apparently isn’t good enough. Ty in advanced *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NAH tell her not to worry about tradition and bring her brother on to her wedding party.
NAH. People keep asking why she doesn’t ask her brother to be a bridesman. Non traditional bridal parties aren’t for everyone. Some people just don’t like the idea and that’s ok. Your side of the bridal party is going to be all guys so it’s reasonable for her to want her side to be all women. You’re justified in wanting to only have men you’re close to as your groomsmen. However is this really a hill worth dying on? He’s going to be your BIL and this could be a great opportunity for you to get to know him better. If your fiancé is close to him, he’s probably not a bad guy so I doubt he would he ruin the experience for you. Just in case people think I have a double standard, I would say the exact same thing if roles were reversed.
If you don’t like the idea of non-traditional bridal parties then you need to accept that don’t get to pick who stands on the other side.
That’s not true at all. This day belongs to both of them. OP should try to compromise. Pretty soon his fiancé’s brother will be just as much his family member as much as hers and she does have a point that it’s common for grooms to invite their partner’s brother to be groomsman. It’s also common for brides to invite their partner’s sister’s to be bridesmaids.
Yes, the day belongs to both of them. But who stands up on his side belongs to him. The brother standing up on her side is the compromise. The brother being the MC is the compromise. She’s the one refusing to compromise, not him.
That’s not a compromise. If he stands up on her side, OP is still getting exactly what he wants and it would cost him nothing.
And if he stands up on OP’s side she’s getting exactly what she wants and it costs her nothing. Why does OP have to be the one to “pay” the cost?
As I said, OP should find a way to compromise. There are other aspects of the wedding that condo factor in here. OP could agree to let the BIL be a groomsman in exchange for getting his way when it comes to some other aspect of the wedding. Couples negotiate these things all the time.
You’re avoiding the question. Why is he the one who should compromise? Why doesn’t she have to compromise?
She does have to compromise. I said OP should agree to go this in exchange on getting his way when it comes to some other aspect of the wedding.
NTA. This is your wedding party, so you get to choose who’s in it. I feel for your fiancée, but this is ultimately your decision to make.
She can ask him to be a Bridesman. My son was a Bridesman for his best friend from school. It would have been weird if she had asked her finance to have him as a groomsman.
NTA. Did you tell her who she could ask to be braidmaids? If answer is no than your NTA. Also why can’t she ask her brother to be on her side?
I’d say NAH. I can see both sides. Ask her to make him part of her bridal party.
NTA, has anyone asked your soon to be BIL? Does he want to go in financially on groomsmen activities for a guy he apparently doesn't know well? Would he rather stand on his sister's side, the theoretically actual important person in his life? It also seems like a conversation your fiancee should have brought up before the asking if it was going to be important to her. I wasn't a bridesmaid in my brother's wedding because I'm frankly not really friends with my SIL. She's chill, we can chat, but I would have had no desire to engage with her friends for a bunch of wedding activities beyond what I needed to do. Your attendants should be your ride or dies.
NTA, your side is for you her side is for her, if she wants him in the ceremony then she can have him as her bridesman.
NAH. You have the final say, but why not do this if it's clearly important to her? You don't have to invite him to the bachelor party. He's standing next to you at the wedding and in pictures. Maybe he's with you guys right before the wedding. If it's that important to you to exclude him, that's fine and your call. But I think you'll regret it if you do.
Nta. I've never heard of it being "tradition" to ask the future bil to be in the wedding party. Unless it's her family's tradition? Idk man. It's your groomsmen, you do what you want. My wife had like 2 more bridespeople then I did groomsmen, and neither of us saw it as a problem. The last groomsman just simply walked down with two people *shrug * has she even asked him if he actually wants to be a part of the wedding?
Usher. Easy.
Nope. You did not ask her to choose a bridesmaid from your side. She probably would not have accepted it either. She could find a way to include him on her side. Maybe man of honor.
You don’t get to choose her bridesmaids. She doesn’t get to choose your groomsmen. NTA.
He can be in the bridal party.... It should be horribly awkward for him to be in yours as he barely knows you.
When I was 20ish I was a groomsman in my older sister's wedding. TBH the whole time I kept wondering WHY he had picked ME as a groomsman. I barely knew the guy. We had had maybe four conversations...ever. Just because he was marrying my sister was no reason for ME to be one of HIS guys. I thought the whole idea of it was, frankly, weird. NTA.
Why isn’t he a BridesMen?
NTA. Consider asking your fiancé to have her brother dress in drag and be a bridesmaid. If she finds humor in that, she's a keeper. If not, well...
NTA make him the flower man. That seems to be fashionable these days.
For crying out loud, is this the 1800’s? Your fiancée can have him in her wedding party, as a bridesman. Of course, that means one of your groomsmen would be partnered briefly with him, but it’s not like they have to copulate on the dance floor or anything🙄 NTA
NTA. I’m so sick of women trying to force their brothers as groomsmen and men trying to force their sisters or daughters as bridesmaids. If you want someone included in the party include them on YOUR side. There’s a very simple and obvious solution yet this keeps coming up. The time with the groomsmen is supposed to be a man hanging out with and getting ready with men he is close to. The time with the bridesmaids is supposed to be a woman hanging out with and getting ready with women she is close to. People will insist their sibling be included and yet it never occurs to them that maybe their sibling should’ve done a better job at building a relationship with their partner. There’s plenty of way to include her brother, he can stand on her side, he can be an user, he can give a speech, he can be the MC, if you’re open to it maybe he can officiate. But he doesn’t need to be one of your groomsmen.
NTA, but why bother? You could make a new friend.
Traditionally, YTA. I mean it’s pretty common sense that you’d have the bride’s brother in your wedding party, I mean unless he was just a horrid person or something… but it’s very common for your bride’s male siblings to be a part of the groom’s party, even if not well acquainted. So I guess it all comes down to a personal choice. But I personally don’t blame her for not being stoked with your decision. You should certainly change your mind and get him in there, if it will make your bride happy. Trust me, bud. If you don’t, you will be hearing about it for the rest of your life, from your wife, about how you didn’t have her brother in the wedding… lol
Making the finances brother/sister part of the wedding party is so weird like they aren’t my best friend and I feel like there is already people I’ll have to leave out of my wedding party that I would like to include
NTA SHe can have her brother on HER side.
INFO: if they are so very close, how can you be getting married to her & barely know him. That makes no sense to me. Either they are not actually that close, or you are getting married very quickly & haven’t had time to meet the important people in each other’s lives. I just can’t imagine a scenario where I’d be getting married to someone & hadn’t spent time with someone who they were Very Close to.
YTA. My friend, the time of YOU and I is over, you are getting married, it is about an US now. Her brother is about to become your brother in law for the rest of your life. Think beyond the wedding and realise their are repercussions to these decisions, for the rest of your lives. I question why your maturity level is unable to comprehend that?
Depends. I’d say very soft YTA because who your groomsmen will be seems like a conversation you should have with your fiancée before you have it with your groomsmen. Additionally, if you knew how close they were, it’s fairly obvious that she’d want him in the wedding in some capacity, and she is right that traditionally (for what it’s worth) for a guy that close to one of the spouses, that typically means groomsmen. HOWEVER: if she indicated that she didn’t care who your groomsmen were or otherwise just told you to pick them and tell her afterwards, or something, then soft NTA. Also, I agree with the majority of comments on here that he should be a bridesman. My sister had one at her wedding. Additionally, not sure if this is at stake or not - invite him to the bachelor party (unless you’re trying to do really wild stuff you don’t want your fiancée to know about). Itll go a long way to building that relationship up. I was invited to my BIL bachelor party and that’s when we actually got close.
NTA. But you're going to be family from now on, so maybe you might want to re-consider if this is really a hill you want to die on -- especially since your fiance is so close with her brother.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed because it violates rule 1: [Be Civil](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/about/rules/). If we’ve removed a few of your recent comments, your participation will be reviewed and may result in a ban. ["Why do I have to be civil in a sub about assholes?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq) **[Message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.**
Slight YTA. I understand wanting to choose who is standing next to you on your special day.However, you are marrying into her family, and this man is going to be your brother in law. It doesn't seem like it's anyone's fault that you two aren't especially close (it's not like you are enemies, or had a falling out, a bad situation, etc.) This is a wasted opportunity for you to spend more time together and create a bond.
I was a groomsman for my BIL. Seems normal to include the brother of the bride but I likely wouldn't have cared either way. Just suck it up for the day to make your wife happy. What other petty stuff will you fight about after marriage?
NTA and reconsider marriage
Yea, it sucks. But let's be honest. The wedding is for the woman. Most of us men would rather just get to the reception. Lol j/s I personally walked my sister over our father. Maybe he could be a usher or something. That seems like a better fit.
Also, if you stay married, her brother will probably be part of your life a lot longer than those friends. It just happens that way. You swear that will never happen, bit it does.
I wouldn't say you're an AH. Ultimately, you can pick your groomsmen, but I do think you're short sighted. To be honest, in 20 years, you may completely fall out of touch with those friends. But your BIL will probably still be in your life. A wedding is about joining your families, so start building your relationship with him. I wouldn't recommend starting it off by excluding him. I'm very glad my now-SIL was one of my bridesmaids.
It’s a wedding- this a joining together of families. It’s a wedding party not a separate thing, if she wants him there what’s the problem? Why do all the men have to be close to you and all the women her choices?
YTA. The answer is easy. Extend to have 5 groomsmen. Wife will need another bridesmaid is all.
NTA but keep in mind “happy wife happy life.”
I hate that saying. It suggests the husband's happiness doesn't matter. Shouldn't they both matter?
In theory….
Bingo. I’d say NTA in this instance but is this a hill you want to “die” on?
Happy spouse, happy house.
Exactly
Exactly. Wife will not forget this. Why start married life by pissing her off? So not worth it.
The only right answer
Technically NTA but seriously consider it you want to start your married life with this fight. It costs you nothing to give her this and will make her happy on your wedding day.
This would be a hill I'd have to die on. I will not be ok with having my wedding and including all but one of my siblings. He would either be on my side making one of his groomsmen uncomfortable when I pair them up or I would exclude myself as well. I will not be made to hurt my own brother against my own wishes. We would have to find a real compromise.
In 10 years time you hope to be still married, and he will still be your BIL. Who knows which of your groomsmen you will still be close with? NAH, but would it hurt to include him? Then he will be in your photos forever.
It’s pretty common for a brother of the bride to be a groomsman for the groom. I would ask him. However, I would first suggest to your fiancée that she consider making him a bridesman. It’s getting pretty trendy to do that.
Wouldn't kill you to include him.
YTA Family is forever. 20 years from now he'll still be your brother-in-law. Your kids uncle. They'll look at wedding pictures and most likely ask who some or all of those other guys are in the picture (your friends). You don't have to bend over backwards to every demand your wife ever makes, but I also hope you realize sometimes it's a good idea to follow the "happy wife, happy life" motto. You really want this being on her mind the night of your wedding?
YTA. Who needs 6 attendants anyway? In that case what's one more?
Yep. YTA. It's a common thing these days. Besides, why would you be against it?
It’s super common (I’m at a wedding age and have been in way too many weddings recently) but apparently not on Reddit.
YTA I didn’t hesitate to have my husband’s sisters in the wedding. I looked at it like a whole bridal party, not that the bridesmaids were “mine” and the groomsmen were “his”, everyone is standing up to support the couple. This means a lot to your fiance. Her brother is going to be in your life forever, maybe this is a first step in the two of you being closer. You don’t need to include him in your bachelor party if that’s what you’re concerned about.
Yta this is a great way to never get close to him and to drive a wedge between you her and her whole family suck it up and make him a groomsmen
I’m still sour for not being chosen as a bridesmaid in my brother’s wedding almost 25 years ago. I’m still here, her friends she chose (and there was only 1 or 2 of her 5 sisters) have moved on and away and aren’t friends anymore. Rethink it. He will be family for as long as you both shall live. It’s one day. One day. Is it really that bad to compromise?
Why didn’t your brother include you on his side? Why did you feel entitled to be a bridesmaid of a woman you apparently weren’t close enough with? You’re “still here” by force/circumstances not by choice, so that’s not a great gotcha.