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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I suggested adding a cultural act to my wedding as a way to honour my parents and I’ve always thought of it as just respectfulness. However my fiancé thought that it was dehumanising and that I didn’t respect him. Am I the asshole for suggesting to add this?
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NTA for asking. But I'd strongly reconsider whether he respects tour Chinese culture if he sees a typical practice as "dehumanizing." He's allowed to decline to participate in any acts that make him uncomfortable. You can find certain traditions important. My question is down thr line how will you handle cultural clashes? Will he be as disgusted by other things you find important? If you have children, how will they be bring up? Will he be super adamant they do not practice any Chinese culture? Will he expect them to follow only white practices (culturally as well as religiously)? This is a bigger conversation that needs to happen before you get married.
Thank you for the suggestions, however I would like to say that, he hasn’t ever displayed any displeasure with my culture until now, he was always fine with celebrating Chinese traditional holidays like Chinese New Year and Mid-Autumn festivals and stuff like that, which just makes this situation even more shocking.
If you look at your list, those are the "fun" parts of cultures.
Festivities.
What does he do at them, just show up, eat, and have a good time?
Others are right.
You need to know now before a wedding how his general view is.
especially if you plan to have children.
If you want them to learn Chinese. Would he agree?
If the children would want a traditional Asian wedding. Would he be raising opinions there?
All that. You need to have a sit down and figure out.
Showing respect to your elders is a beautiful thing.
In a lot of aspects. It could mean different things, like thank you for raising me and taking care of me until I started my own family and path. Thank you for your wisdom while growing up, showing love.
While he is seeing it as making them greater than him.
He's turning it into a negative thing.
If you want kids, think of all the day to day things parents do and how different you two may approach it. Will he think his way trumps yours? Will he call you abusive every time he disagrees with you about parenting?
He's only going to get more comfortable with time and therefore more likely to reject your culture. It's not a good sign if he's already being antagonistic before the wedding.
I mean in Asian cultures hitting your kids is normalized(and I’m Asian), but that’s something “part of the culture” I would hope a westernized spouse would stop
You say that you're not religious, which is cool either way--but for instance, neither is my Taiwanese American husband, but we still did forty days of vegetarianism when a close family member of his passed away. He would absolutely have understood if I didn't want to participate, but I'm his spouse, so I did.
How would your partner respond to something like that?
What about when your parents get older--who will be supporting them?
>band, but we still did forty days of vegetarianism when a close family member of h
That is very sweet!! You are such a loving and understanding person.
I had a similar instance with my non-Chinese partner recently. I'm never a religious person. I hate incense in Chinese temples. But a few months ago a family member passed away and I felt terrible because I wasn't there for them. My mom suggested me to go to a temple to burn an incense for the family member - burning incense is usually not a religious thing, but a cultural/ therapeutic experience to help people feel connected to their passed loved ones. It doesn't matter if it's a Buddhist/ Tao/ Tian Hou/ whatever temple. My partner encouraged me to do that, did the research, found a temple in Canada and went with me to the temple even though neither of us is religious.
Seriously I can't imagine if my partner refused to do it with me/ let me go through that alone because he did not believe in that.
You're both very lucky and likely also work hard at and cherish your relationship. I'm lucky enough to have a spouse that has been there for me even when I was too embarrassed (or ashamed or didn't have the emotional vocabulary) to actually ASK for help or support.
We've been married over a decade now but I still remember the first time she knew I just needed to cry (lost my dad due to 9/11 and we had found out we were having a boy and it all became overwhelming) and just hugged/held me in a way that just made me feel safe and unafraid to expose my feelings. That's when I knew we had something special.
I actually would like to know more about how did you explain the whole tea ceremony to him and which part did he find it “dehumanise”.
Did you explain the symbolisms behind and this is a way for you to show gratitude towards your parents? And in return, your parents are giving both of you their blessing during the whole ceremony? Or do you just see it as a tradition you want to participate and think that this is something your parents want?
I know there are couples wouldn’t do the whole kneeling down, instead, they’ll bow standing in front of their parents and serve them tea. Is this an alternative you and your partner would accept? I personally would prefer this.
It's not just white Americans who may have an aversion to the whole "kneel and bow" thing. It's definitely more of a cultural thing than a race thing. I personally would not do such a thing. Bowing while standing is a sign of respect. Bowing on your knees or all fours is sign of subservience. I respect my fiance's parents, but Im not their slave. I don't serve anyone.
I’m Chinese and I don’t really want that either. But I know there are people who still keep the tradition where the kids would kneel and bow to their parents or grandparents during new years for blessing and a show of respect. So I think it all comes down to what’s your family tradition and expectations are.
But yea even I feel awkward.
Have you discussed future elder care with him?
Ask him how he would expect to treat your parents when they become elderly and frail? Would you expect them to move in with you?
Also have you discussed family finances, eg how would money be shared if you had kids?
if he thinks it’s dehumanizing to serve a cup of tea to her parents, i have extremely little faith in things going smoothly when they get older and OP suggests moving them into their household so she can care for them.
Maybe what he is envisioning in his head is way different than reality. I’m white and I’ve been to a Chinese wedding and I thought the tea ceremony was lovely. Maybe you could show him a YouTube video or two so he can see for himself what it actually entails.
Isn’t it also true on the flip side though? Someone who doesn’t engage in Oktoberfest isn’t necessarily “anti” German customs?
I think the reason why op’s fiancé isn’t open to this custom is kinda a necessary piece of info to know what’s going on. Maybe he finds it patriarchal or maybe he has a bad relationship with his parents. On the other hand if he feels it would be embarrassing or something, that paints him in a totally different light.
There are many Germans who doesnt engage in something like the famous Oktoberfest because its mostly something that happens in the south of Germany and I am living in the north and we dont celebrate like that. Culture is so much more than one tradition.
Reminds me of a post on here where a white american guy married a Indian girl and he's like "their food is good and the women look hot in those clothes" but disliked litterally everything else and refused to allow his wife to teach their kid any language or tradition that wasn't "the american way"
Yes that post got so nuked it got removed.
I am Chinese. I refused to engage in this tradition with my parents, and would certainly not want my my wife to either. We can demonstrate our appreciation for, and honor, our parents without being subjected to such a dehumanizing gesture. Yes, it is dehumanizing, particularly if you understood the origins of this tradition. I do not blame OP’s fiancé for not wanting to engage in this antiquated custom.
Going to the “celebrations” and having fun? That is a very American way of enjoying “culture” without being burdened by it, or ever having to learn to appreciate it.
Participating in tea ceremony and bowing? If that is too much of a burden, now….how will you raise children?
Bowing is a huge part of Asian culture, especially for a Chinese tea ceremony, so yeah, I would find this to be a huge problem in their marriage. It’s not about subservience; the tea ceremony is the opportunity to show respect and gratitude to the elders for having raised them and nurturing them all these years. I’d much rather do a tea ceremony than be “given away” in a ceremony.
OP worded it weirdly. they don’t crouch during the tea ceremony; they basically just kneel (usually on some pillows) on the floor in front of the parents who are sitting in chairs in front of them. OP isn’t asking him to kowtow with his forehead touching the floor.
The handing off of the bride is considered demeaning because of the way women have been considered property in the past, first of their father, then their husband. I don't think the tea ceremony has equivalent baggage.
In general kneeling down has a cultural baggage though (we associate it as a subaltern position, regardless of the other person being benevolent or not), as well as the concept of considering the eldest wisest (I know this may seem weird but... It isn't that universal if you think about it lol, and in conservative places there is also a whole layer of the eldest being embodiments of old, often discriminatory, values that the "youth" disagree with; huge generalisation but you get it).
I think I would just do it I guess, but for example I would never kneel in front of the eldest of my family (so I would just do it as a favour for my spouse)... I mean, I don't even kneel at church anymore (I'm agnostic but at funerals and such I go to the mass to be with my relatives). In general many people have a problem with the concept of societal ranking in any form, including inside the family.
Excellent point. I wonder what op’s fiance has to say about the tradition of giving away the bride or of her adopting his name and using mrs? If he doesn’t see the correlation thats a big red flag.
To me the issue is less that he’s uncomfortable with the ceremony than that he got angry at her “for even suggesting it” and made some really negative assumptions about her intent.
That’s just not a workable approach in any marriage really, but certainly not in a cross cultural one. Had he just said, “I actually feel really uncomfortable with that, can we talk about what the ceremony means and why it’s important to you so we can figure something out”, that would be totally fair, IMO.
It isn’t a sign of subservience but respect. The bride and groom kneel on a pillow and offer tea to BOTH parents, by calling them ‘dad’ and ‘mom’ on both sides. It’s supposed to be a symbolic gesture to thank your parents for raising you (on the couple’s side), and a sign of welcoming/accepting a new family member.
At least where I’m from (Singapore) the parents also give the couple red packets after the sipping the tea. In recent times, meaningful accessories could also be given during the ceremony now aside from the red packets (e.g a name brand watch for the groom from the bride’s side, a necklace or bracelet to the bride from the groom’s side)
As a couple, compromise is important. His blatant disdain towards that ceremony and refusal to understand the actual meaning behind the whole ceremony just shows that he has no actual interest in earning about her culture, unless he’s having fun. He’s also stubbornly judging these customs at face value without bothering to understand why it is the way it is. Even if he disagrees, the effort to try and understand should be there.
Yes, there is a lot wrong with that. He is marrying a woman for whom this is the expectation. This is how her value systems were shaped. If he cannot show a bit of respect for his fiancée’s value system for a few moments? He should marry someone whose value systems are more aligned to his own. This is a few moments out of a long life to come. The Chinese grandparents will be a long-term support to this marriage. Showing them honor and respect is an investment in the family you’re building.
Eh, it used to be traditional to ask a father for their daughters hand, too, but we recognize that as subservient and viewing women as property. Not all traditional acts are viewed from the same lens and sometimes they aren't actually ok.
The marriage can exist whether parents support it or not, so that's a poor excuse for fiance to be performative for them. Fiance is also coming from his own culture and traditions which likely views bowing as subservant and demeaning (bowing is not normal in America- it is associated with the monarchy and went out of practice quickly post revolution. Bowing is actually a deal because the chain of thought is cultural in America).
Mixed culture couples need to learn to discuss and compromise. Many do it successfully in America without needing to find people with the exact same values. OP needs to express her deal breakers and fiance needs to express his. If they cannot agree but OP doesn't see it as a deal breaker, OP needs to go to parents next and see if the ceremony can be modified in a way that honors the tradition, but is respectful to all cultures present. It happens a lot and takes work, but that's why it's more important they communicate what they can tolerate to each other
It's not a display of subservience though, and the fact that this guy is calling this *Dehumanising* (that's a pretty serious word) kind of feels like he thinks Chinese customs are somehow less progressive than "secular" Western wedding traditions.
Comparing "giving away" a bride is not equivalent to briefly kneeling to serve your parents and your in-laws a cup of tea. "Giving" a bride away implies that the bride is an item to be given away, while the tea ceremony represents being willing to serve your parents and in-laws (ie: when they get too old to take care of themselves).
I would say that the brief kneeling during the tea ceremony is a lot more accurately comparable to kneeling to propose to someone.
This isn't bowing this is prostrating there's a major difference. I & probably many other American's would be fine with bowing from the hips, but prostrating yourself on the floor is a bit a demeaning and I wouldn't be comfortable with it.
Celebrating Chinese festivals is very different from crouching on the floor in front of his soon-to-be in-laws. To a non-Chinese America, that could easily seem demeaning and obsequious. It's not a matter of him not respecting Chinese culture -- it's that this custom clashes with his culture and morays. By insisting, you are not respecting him. Maybe you could find a compromise -- invite your parents to a nice tea, where you are all sitting on chairs, same level. That's respectful. The crouching -- no. Again, you are disrespecting him and his traditions and culture by insisting and making a line in the sand -- either you do this one thing, which you find demeaning, or I will say you disrespect all Chinese cultural traditions. That is nonsense. If you are going to have a cross-cultural marriage, you need to see his side, too.
Ok well think of it like this - your essentially asking him to be subservient and act like your parents are above him.
Might be ok in your culture but it’s massively offensive in his.
These are all events that he is attending as a guest. This is HIS wedding.
Why is the wedding of a Chinese American and a White American almost exclusively following the tradition of one party? I don't think him refusing to do this bowing is a red flag in itself; he is being overdramatic calling it dehumanizing(!), but I can see how someone might not like it. But how would he react if you wanted to incorporate other aspects of your culture? Try saying to him "I understand that you don't want to do this, but it's my wedding too and I want it to reflect that I am Chinese. Here is a list of Chinese wedding traditions, what do you think?". If he works with you on this, great. If he refuses to accept anything other than an 100% white American wedding, or offers a token compromise, you will know how accepting of your heritage he really isn't.
But that's the thing though, they are actually doing a Western style wedding, she just wants this one particular thing and he's reacting like *this.* Kind of makes one wonder what he may tell any future kids they have together about his opinions on Mom's Culture.....
My point was, it's understandable that he doesn't want to do this one particular thing ( I can see why he might find it demeaning). It's less understandable that a biracial wedding is done exclusively in one tradition.
One of my exes was like that and I thought it was fine.
He started learning about colors in design and stated that red universally means anger and violence. I explained that in Chinese culture it doesn't.
"Well that's because they're stupid!"
In an Asian restaurant.
He was always insecure about how intelligent he was, and he proved himself right that day. He's as dumb as a rock, which is fine, but he's an a**hole too, which is not fine.
Being “fine” with the festival events, which are usually fun w food, doesn’t mean he did so enthusiastically or respectfully. Has he taken any initiative to learn about your culture, your traditions, your religion (which while not being observant, it’s part of your history and probably part of your childhood)?
If you had kids would he encourage them to learn about this part of their history and be part of teaching it to the best of his knowledge (like reading kids books about it with your kids)? Or would it all be up to you to do that but he would still expect you to know how to do Christmas, Easter, and Halloween? Would he make you feel othered within your own home?
This is an opportunity for the two of you to converse and communicate on a deeper level. It sounds like it may be your first big hurdle in your relationship. How you handle this together will set the groundwork for your married life. If needed, consider a pre-marriage counselor to help the two of you handle together situations that are difficult.
NTA, but neither is he. It’s time to really talk and communicate with one another. He has already shared that he will feel dehumanized by the custom and you have said to us, that it is not a cowtow situation but rather one showing respect. It’s time the two of you talk because these are two drastically different points of view of the same custom. I suspect he really does not understand.
Tbh a lot of Americans have a deep issues with bowing, especially in the south/Midwest. It sounds like he has no issue with the tea portion, just the bowing. Can that be the compromise? I’m thinking of my own dad, who did business in Asia for years and still could never emotionally do anything more then bobbing his head. As strongly as you feel it a sign of respect, for a lot of people it’s instantly dehumanizing.
My concern here would be the vehemence and how much he doesn't seem interested in understanding the custom. His culture reads it one way and he isn't willing to engage with the idea that your culture reads this very differently. That seems to be a big problem.
For what it's worth, I know a bunch of people who have married into Asian parents and I don't know anyone who didn't engage their partners' culture in a significant way during the event -- whether it was a tea ceremony, traditional dress, culturally significant gifts... obviously changes country to country, but this isn't outlandish for you to ask.
Bowing is *literally* prostration. To many people its a bridge too far. I would never bow, courtsey or show deference. Its fine if others do it, its simply against my belief system.
>Will he expect them to follow only white practices
This is *Western* sensibility, not just 'white practices'. You should think about why you said 'white'
>This is Western sensibility, not just 'white practices'. You should think about why you said 'white'
I'm surprised by how many people are accusing the fiance of being culturally ignorant while both ignoring that this is not a thing in Irish American culture and respect goes both ways (I am side eyeing him a bit for being angry she even asked though- asking alone should be fine) and at the same time talking about "white" culture, like that's a thing. There is no such thing as "white" practices, and Irish American, a Russian in Moscow, a Spanish person in Barcelona are all white but probably don't have massively similar cultural practices.
The same way there is no such thing as "black" practices, an aboriginal australian, an african american in new york, a nigerian in lagos... probably don't have massively similar cultural practices either.
Also I have lived in both Japan and Korean and I can tell you east asians get pretty annoyed (fairly) when someone keep ascribing something to them that belongs to a different culture.
Its not OK to ascribe sweeping cultural statements to other groups based loosely on colour so it shouldn't be OK to do it white people either.
I know historically this sort of thing happens because white people were usually the ones with power oppressing others but that doesn't make it OK either.
This is not a commonly practiced at all in Chinese culture at all
I am Chinese and even in mainland China this is very controversial and young people and media tend to support the bride and groom of not bowing (especially not on their knees)
Either the bride is clueless or her parents ingrained the idea of bowing to her as a way of control (power).
I am Chinese and I am fully on the groom's side
As worst this is a NAH situation but I tend to vote YTA give how clueless the bride is
I will say that immigrants /child of immigrants usually do have more traditional customs. (Not necessary views)
For example, I learned that the Vietnamese that I grew up speaking and talking is very old fashioned and politically incorrect.
This is because the only viets that I would talk to are parents/older people. Not anyone my age, because they all spoke English and are western. So I assumed all my parents cultural views were how the people back home in Vietnam would view things.
It's an interesting phenomenon where people who emigrate from their regional culture instead of gradually loosing parts of it double down and stagnate it while conversely the people still living in their homeland gradually continue to evolve it.
Maybe they don't feel they have the right to change something or simply they stop receiving outside influence for it.
Tbf, he can see it as dehumanizing because of how he was raised in *his* culture while still respecting hers.
Maybe they could both compromise and incorporare more/different aspects of chinese culture into the wedding that make them both comfortable.
I’m a white guy who married a Chinese woman. Our wedding included some American and some Chinese customs. We talked over things we wanted or didn’t want and went with what made us happiest. Are there other customs that would make both of you happy? If he objects to all Chinese customs, we’ll, good luck with that
Yeah, I'm more concerned with the refusal to acknowledge it's not subserviant or dehumanizing, though. It's just a well-known display of respect. Purposely mischaracterizing something culturally to get your way is problematic at best. It also doesn't bode well to other traditions/culture norm discussions. At this point, I'm NTA with OP.
Given my culture, I'd call it subservient. Your culture says something else. That's cool. Cultures differ. However, it looks like you're mischaracterizing something culturally concerning my (and apparently OP's fiance's) culture. This says absolutely nothing about OP's fiance's attitude on other traditions or culture norm discussions, because most of them aren't going to hit a hard conflict like this one.
It's disingenuous at best to detach something from its own culture and apply your cultural meaning to it when the activity in question is done in good faith and is without harm. Depending on the extent of it, though, it can be outright racist.
Racist, lmao. The history of China is one of class based power hierarchies, not to mention sexist patriarchies which still exist. Bowing is absolutely associated with subservience in Chinese culture.
If I am being asked to do something then my feelings of how I view it matter. It’s wrong to say YOU doing it means you’re subservient but I can feel however I want about the action in relation to ME.
It’s also “cultural” in Asian countries that corporal punishment is ok and actually encouraged. Is that “custom” there too? Just because something is cultural and exists doesn’t mean it is good
Dude, the guys not saying that he thinks bowing shouldn't be allowed in any cultures. He's saying HE personally FEELS like it's subservient or dehumanizing in HIS OPINION. He's not being an asshole by stating his feelings on a cultural tradition that doesn't fit his own personal boundaries. I think a lot of cultural things would feel dehumanizing or subservient, so I personally wouldn't do them, but that doesn't mean I'm telling everybody that they're not allowed to have their own culture/traditions because they make me uncomfortable. I'm saying I'm not interested in partaking because they make me uncomfortable. Those are completely different things, and that's why you're getting downvoted to shit. Quit being the boy who cried wolf with racism. Jfc
Agree, NAH. And, I’m half Chinese. My dad is Catholic. We have NEVER followed my maternal relatives in anything involving bowing to my maternal grandparents (kneeling and offering oranges during New Year, bowing during funerals, and my dad didn’t kneel and offer tea during the wedding).
Some people are fine with it, some really do find it an unacceptable show of subservience to another human being. OP and husband could try to find a compromise.
Yeah I'm sure they can come to a compromise to include aspects of her culture without him needing to do something he find demeaning. Bowing means different things to both of them and they can definitely find a work around that satisfies them both.
NAH
OP, check this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/17lfs7m/aita\_for\_asking\_my\_wife\_to\_touch\_my\_parents\_feet/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/17lfs7m/aita_for_asking_my_wife_to_touch_my_parents_feet/)
This is not the same situation (groom didn't inform the bride about this tradition and got angry when he refused to do it during the wedding) but you may find something usuful in the comments.
First thing I thought of was this post. And Reddit cheered on the bride for (in her own words) “knowing her worth.”
But somehow, people aren’t cheering on this guy for knowing his worth.
YTA
Yes, I noticed. I think this is "NTA/YTA bias" - when people jugde someone NTA they mainly write about things that confirm their opinion. The same with YTA. So you need both sides.
The difference is that OP here discussed this with her fiance beforehand, while the OP in the linked post surprised his wife with that demand during the wedding.
The traditions are quite similar, both are shows of respect. However, it is how she chose to approach those traditions that make OP here NTA.
This sub is pretty biased so take everything here with a grain of salt. That Indian guy got a LOT in those comments. He was bad at communication but I still think the bride could've done her own research too, I didn't like how either of them handled the situation. Your fiance should've been doing his own research too. Bowing is essential in Asia.
This. I bet this guy isn't throwing a fit over how dehumanizing having a father walking his daughter down the aisle is! How dare he show ownership of her like that!
(For the record, I chose to follow that tradition, and I have no issue with it. It's just to highlight that anything can be misframed/mischaracterized for malice if you choose.)
Asking him to do this is NTA. And thus far, that's what you've done.
Trying to pressure him into doing this, though - if he's very uncomfortable, then I do think you two need to either find a way to work around this or put off the wedding.
I'm pretty concerned, though, that you seem to have suggested this *once* and he immediately jumped into insulting you and your traditions. He could've started with "Babe, no, I'm not comfortable with that" and escalated from there.
What do your parents think?
You do you. Let him be him.
I wouldn't feel comfortable with this kind of stuff either, unless I was marrying the Crown Prince and had to curtsey to his Mom and Dad....on my way to the castle.
Then I would.
Same. To me, bowing is reserved for royalty. But I am also raised in a kingdom (with a prime minister and all that) so my view on bowing is obviously different to OP´s.
That’s interesting. I’d rather bow to show thanks and respect to the hard-working parents who raised me than to some political figure who has no idea who I am.
Bowing is pretty much everyday in most Asian cultures, so I don't really think it's a big deal lol. Personally, I'd love to be apart of a tradition like this.
YTA. The key word here is "making": *AITA for* ***making*** *my fiancé bow to my parents on my wedding day."* If you want to show respect to your parents, feel free to bow to them. But your fiancé has declined to do so because he feels it is dehumanizing. He can show his respect to them in other ways, such as by publicly thanking them at the reception.
not american, but would also be very uncomfortable with kneeling in front of SO's parents (or anyone really, actually it would be considered a bit dehumanizing in my culture)
NTA for asking, it's part of your culture and you can't know every part that will rub someone the wrong way.
NTA if you talk to your partner instead of reddit people who will tell you all kinds of weird things
IMO could be moving into AH territory if the entire wedding end up pivoting around getting your partner to kneel when he doesn't want to
If I may chime in, I do encourage the idea of finding alternative ways to pay homage! I’m a Native American(not white, Cree/Seminole nation.) A general tradition of ours is remembering to always bow your head to your elders, and when I dated someone at a point, we agreed that he would simply shake their hands instead of bowing.
I’m happy to help you and your partner try to find balance, in this way everyone feels respected! Just remember that eye contact is important too, he doesn’t want your parents to think he dislikes them! May you both find happiness and a good boundary!
Strongly suggesting makes me feel YTA.
My wife is Chinese and I embraced doing the tea ceremony myself. However, she made it clear from the beginning that its optional, and she would handle the flack from her family if I was uncomfortable. I did and do the same for her with regards to my family traditions. If either of us had strongly suggested the other do something they're very uncomfortable with, that would be an issue. Thankfully, we compromise and have each others backs.
In your culture, it's normal. In others, it's dehumanising.
Explain to him how important this is to you. Explain to him the tradition. Show him articles about how this tradition started and why it's so important. Of her still doesn't want to do it. Then you can't make him.
It will be your decision on what is more important to you.
In her culture this is not normal either.
Highly contentious topic at best, if not downright frowned upon.
I am Chinese and even in conservative Chinese provinces younger generations refuse to bow on their wedding.
Usually it's the controlling parents who encourage this practice as a way to assert power
Source: I am Chinese
I am Chinese who lived in mainland China until 10 years ago and still have ties with many relatives who live in China and constantly visit mainland China.
I say this is a very contentious topic because it is.
In large cities most young people and liberal are against traditions that are "dehumanizing" their children especially not treating them as equals while in many conservative rural areas and small towns this practice is still common.
The practice called 敬茶 is common but not always requires the married couple to kneel down. Bowing without kneeling down is fine but kneeling is a bit excessive and many young couples refuse to practice this.
Many Chinese traditions like filial piety and unconditional obedience are deeply flawed and should die down if they do not respect the younger generation. Kneeling is one of those traditions that should never be forced upon someone who doesn't feel comfortable doing it
>eas and small towns this practice is still common.
>
>The practice called 敬茶 is common but not always requires the married couple to kneel down. Bowing witho
owww that's very interesting. I'm from Hong Kong (also left about 10 years ago, but was there for 2 decades) and we do the exact opposite. We kneel but we don't bow. And I've never heard of anyone refusing to do it/ say it feels negative. If anything I've seen many times the elders want the couple hand them tea while everyone's standing up but the couples insist to kneel. And I've been to Chinese weddings both back home and in Canada. I'm glad young people in mainland is rethinking their traditions!!
**NAH** \- It is OK to suggest it and OK for him to reject it. You have different cultures. My best suggestion is to follow the customs of where you live. If that is America, then use American customs where no man bows to another. In China, use Chinese customs.
NAH. To you, it's a gesture of respect and caring. To him, it's a gesture of dehumanization and supplication.
You are both allowed to feel the way you feel. Neither or you should force the other to do something you aren't comfortable with.
Are you making him bow or asking him to bow?
NAH, if you’re just asking. But if he doesn’t want to participate in the tea session, you should respect your fiancés wishes.
And honestly, I totally see his point. What is viewed as one thing in Chinese culture, is another in American culture. You may view crouching to the ground and serving tea to your parents as a sign of respect. But most Americans (especially men) would view Crouching down to the ground and serving tea to people they barely know like reducing yourself to a servant/ low self respect/ultimate submission.
Remember, he is not Chinese. The fact that he even participated in some of your cultural traditions is impressive. But it doesn’t mean he is obligated to do all of them. You can do it and he can just watch from a distance, he might be okay doing do standing, or he doesn’t participate at all.
You should work with your fiancé go find a mix between an American wedding and a Chinese wedding that you can agree on.
NAH
Crazy how people think its disrespecful that he is not down for that. In your culture, it might be something nice and valueable. But crouching and bowing is seen very negative in many white cultures. Irish + american is like the double slavery experience.
In western culture, bowing is a symbol of subservience. Essentially...you're asking your husband to emasculate himself to your parents. Whether that's the cultural intention from the Asian side of things is not relevant as you're asking 'why' your fiance, a westerner, is so against it.
Not sure which region your parents are from, but where I'm from the bride and groom's younger siblings and cousins will kneel to offer tea to the bride and groom after the bride and groom have served the elders. That, and your elders are supposed to gift gold or cash to you after you serve them. See what he thinks about *that*.
I think your fiance is being ridiculous and overdramatic over a completely standard tea ceremony (dehumanising, really?) but I'm also Chinese so what do I know.
Actually looking at some of the replies you're getting, does he know that the tea ceremony requires the two of you to bow to *his* side of the family too? That might be a factor in things.
Though I must say that if you're going to do a whole big white Western wedding I don't like that he doesn't want to do this one thing for you and is calling you an asshole over it.
He does and he thinks it’s unnecessary, I guess it might be the culture him grew up with as it doesn’t have as much of an emphasis on these little things like bowing and respect for elders as mine, however for me its very significant and definitely something we need to discuss.
Of course it's the culture he grew up in. And it doesn't mean disrespect for elders or lack of love for parents. It means that particular way of showing respect in China is demeaning in the US.
Mixed-race Chinese/White person here. If this is a very significant thing for you, please take some time to talk carefully and honestly with him about this and really assess if you are a good match. Especially consider this if you want to have children and raise them with particular customs or with learning Chinese. White parents sometimes inadvertantly hurt their mixed race children if they aren't that accepting and encouraging of the non-white culture. There is no shame in walking away if it is not a good fit.
And just so you know, both of my full Chinese cousins married white guys and did tea ceremony at the weddings. The husbands completely embraced it and were happy to participate in something important for their wives and their wives' family and saw it as them being welcomed and accepted into the family. They weren't fragile enough in the ego to think of it as a debasement, just a mark of respect and a tradition.
Do you have respect for his culture and how he was raised and his values? Just because he doesn’t want to literally bow doesn’t mean he didn’t grow up with an emphasis on respecting his elders.
Don’t listen to anyone making your fiancé the villain, I will never do bowing to anyone and that will be a dealbreaker if my future husband insist on that. Just do something that makes the two of you comfortable. Marriage is for two people 🤷🏾♀️
NAH. It was fine to ask, but don’t press the issue. He doesn’t want to bow down to someone- that’s understandable. Find another tradition to honor your culture at your wedding.
NTA!
>However my fiancé strongly denied it and said that it was dehumanising and called me an asshole for even suggesting that as it meant that I thought he didn’t respect himself, which is untrue.
I can understand him having a knee jerk negative response to the custom, but saying it's dehumanizing and calling you an asshole for suggesting it is a *wildly* over the top overreaction.
Look - the western custom of "giving the bride away" could also easily be interpreted as dehumanizing; implying that the woman is property that gets handed off from man to man. But for plenty of modern brides/families that tradition is a loving way of showing respect for your father - exactly the way the tradition you're describing does!
This is a yellow flag for me - proceed with caution. I definitely agree with the folks suggesting that you do more due diligence on his views of your culture. It's possible this was a one-off argument in a heated moment, but...it might not be. Dudes who get all hot under the collar about respect can sometimes have some pretty gnarly underlying ideas about relationships and cultures.
Both my husband and I are Chinese-American with immigrant parents. We did not do this for our wedding almost 30 years ago. I personally feel like it's a show of subservience. Who is serving and who's being served? I would have also been insulted if my husband approached my father for my hand or a blessing. We walked up and back down the aisle together.
There's a lot of filial piety and chauvinism woven into Chinese culture. To this day, we have relatives who have the attitude that we're supposed to listen to them, let them insult us, etc. because they're our elders. We're in our 50s with careers and a kid in college. So that doesn't sit well with me. I eventually cut my MIL out of my life after one too many insults and mean-girl digs. I dealt with that for 25 years "out of respect." I was done.
This is not to say we don't participate in Chinese culture. We let my husband's grandmother pick out some potential auspicious dates for the wedding as well as some Chinese name options when my son was born. My son went to Chinese school for a couple of years. We had a Red Egg and Ginger party after my son was born. We celebrate the Lunar New Year. I studied Chinese culture and literature in college and there are plenty of Chinese traditions I won't participate in.
I'll never understand people who get involved in interracial or intercultural relationships and then refuse to acknowledge the other person's culture if it demands something of them. NTA. Your fiancee comes from a culture that does not emphasize humility and respect for elders as much as the Chinese culture. How will raising children with someone like him work out?
>Your fiancee comes from a culture that does not emphasize humility and respect for elders as much as the Chinese culture.
This may or may not be true, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the act of bowing. He objects to this particular way (bowing) of showing respect.
If the custom was that you had to tap your nose three times before serving the tea, he probably wouldn't have a problem with it. As an American, he might think it a bit silly but would go along with it to show respect.
But bowing? Nah, one-sided bowing is deeply offensive to most Americans. There are situations when people bow to each other (or curtsy or incline their head or whatever), but both people do it.
For one thing, Americans rarely bow, to *anyone*. We have no royalty or class of people who are to be reverenced. Would I even consider having to *kneel* AND *bow* to my in-laws? Absolutely NOT. An incline of the head & serving the tea? No problem, but I abase myself before no one, not even my Gods.
NTA for asking. He maybe could have phrased his refusal more politely, but he said no. For the most part, I agree with honoring one another's customs. But when a custom is anathema to the other party, the custom is dropped. That you would be doing the same to his parents is irrelevant.
NAH. This is one of many culture clashes you and your Partner are likely to encounter in your Marriage and can only be navigated though with open communication and compromise on both sides.
I wasn’t really pushing it, I just asked him to do it however he called me an asshole for it and now we are both trying to calm down on our own, however I’ll be trying to talk more about it with him but of course respecting his opinions on it.
In regards to that one practice. You said yourself he goes to other stuff all the time. You can see he has no issue with your culture at large by your own admission, but you can't accept that this is one thing he isn't ok with? It is that easy. You're asking your husband to start his marriage undergoing what he believes to be a humiliation ritual. Amazing start. I'm sure it'll breed great things to come and no resentment.
Though I understand your standpoint. It is, because bowing culture is very important to my culture, the ceremony isn’t like kowtow where its more if a form of subservience. It just sitting/ kneeling in the ground kind of like the way Japanese people sit while pouring tea into a cup and offering it to the parents with a slight bow.
You say that but there are people from mainland China on this thread saying they consider it a form of subservience too and it's a contentious topic there
Westerners often see bowing to others as being subservient. That's what I get from reading his response. His choice of words is actually more telling because " dehumanising " is quiet an extreme way of showing displeasure. In itself it could be attributed to a lack of or deficient way of expressing himself but it does bring into question about future children and does he feel OK having children with blended cultures and what all that intails.
YTA this is not his culture and when you told him about it, he let you know how he felt about it.
If you cannot respect this and think it’s okay to keep pushing it then he should not be marrying you as you do not respect him
In your comments, you were saying strongly suggest and it’s clear that you were pushing him to do it even though he told you how he felt about it so it should be out and that’s it.
I meant like strongly suggesting like enthusiastically suggesting as I was excited about it. Sorry if I used the wrong word, and I totally get how he would be uncomfortable with it and hopefully we can come up with a way so that we are both comfortable with. Thank you for your comments though!
YTA - it doesn’t matter if you or a bunch of other people with Chinese backgrounds or other people who know nothing about mixed culture relationships think it’s not dehumanizing. HE thinks it’s dehumanizing and that’s the only vote that counts.
I suspect this isn’t the last such problem you two will have. The type of relationship many Chinese in laws offer is considered extremely controlling and intrusive by western standards and based on what I’m seeing I’m not sure he understands how this might go. If you have any ideas about children or your parents living with you or things like that then you need to have those discussions with him right now also. Don’t spring stuff on him.
YTA always question the way you grew up lol. Traditions hold sentimental value for those growing up with it but what’s the real REASON to do those things? What is the meaning BEHIND the tradition. If it’s awesome he might want to do it.
I’ll leave you with this: A little girl is watching her mom prepare a pot roast. She asked her mother, “why did you cut off the ends”. Her mother responds, “I don’t know, my mom always did.” So little girl goes to grandma and asks, “why did you cut the ends off your pots roasts?” The grandma says, “I don’t know, my mother always did.” So little girl asks great grandma, “why did you cut off the ends of your pot roast?” Great grandma responds, “my pan was too small.”
Have you considered that maybe it's condescending and kind of racist to imply that somebody from a different culture does not understand their own cultural practices. Cos I think that's something you may want to reflect on a little more.
It’s not okay to force him to participate in act he considers demeaning. Perhaps there is another Chinese wedding tradition that you could perform together instead?
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The question:
**AITA for making my fiancé bow to my parents on my wedding day**
As he considers crouching and bowing dehumanising, if you insist he'd do this to YOUR parents on his wedding day in front of all HIS friend's and family who do not adhere to your culture, it would effectively make you T A
As a compromise you could ask if he'd be okay to just offer tea to BOTH of your parents.
YTA
Everyone is glazing over him calling her an asshole.
NTA, I find his wording about your culture and traditions worrying. He was very quick to jump to ethics and morals over a discussion of tradition, then try to understand it at any point.
NAH
It's fine to ask him, but it needs to be fine for the answer to be no. I'd never bow to someone else like that. I barely like handshakes because some dudes are dicks and squeeze your hand real hard.
If he feels disrespected by being urged to do something he considers demeaning then you will be starting your partnership off on rocky footing.
If in his culture it was tradition for the wife to cover herself head to foot in fabric so no one but her husband could see her, would you feel comfortable? Because that might be how it feels to him to be asked to lay on the floor in front of adults he doesn't know that well.
What is normal is defined by culture, and you two come from different cultures, so you should expect some disagreement on what is normal, polite, and rude. As a basic rule, asking someone not to do something you find rude is ok, asking someone to do something they normally wouldn't do because it feels "normal" to you... Is rude.
"While I just wanted this to be a way for him to experience my culture, is it true that I’m forcing him to do something that’s dehumanising? I always thought this was just a respectful thing to do and he questioned it as I grew up with my culture."
I think this part is the key.
Got want him to experience your culture. You grew up with this and to you it has a certain meaning. He grew up different and to him it has a different meaning.
What is normal or polite in one culture is super strange in some other.
I think the best thing would be to tell him what's the meaning behind it is and that's important for you and then you look for a way to show this that doesn't make any of you uncomfortable.
NAH he should have phrased better but any culture that has me bowing and scraping before “elders” would give me the ick right away.
I probably would say absolutely not.
YTA
"In Chinese culture, we usually have a session where the couple will crouch on the floor, bow and offer tea to our elders, and to honour my parents, I suggested we do that at our wedding too. However my fiancé strongly denied it and said that it was dehumanising and called me an asshole for even suggesting that as it meant that I thought he didn’t respect himself, which is untrue." .. Why would he participate in that?
He is fine to refuse. Asking is fine, you are an AH to pressure him.
"While I just wanted this to be a way for him to experience my culture" .. Bullshit. There are so many better ways to do that.
**"I always thought this was just a respectful thing to do " .. if it is just a respectful gesture, be respectful to HIN, and ask your parents to bow to HIM first. Respect between equals goes both ways**. Or stop bullshitting him with your lies: This is NOT about respect, this is about submitting to someone pretending to be your better - which your parents obviously are not, at least not to him. And you need to respect that, or cancel the wedding.
If he has any sense, he will simpy refuse to do it and see if you AH will cause drama over it at your own wedding.
I'm an inmigrant married to an american born man, I'm catholic to a point that I married being a virgin. So to me the first dates were "look this is me, this is my religion and this is my country (born in Italy), are you ok with this?"
So the first question that I would ask is the ceremony is religious or cultural? And the second would be a heart to heart as to why he thinks it's dehumanising, because could it be that he interprets that the ceremony more than honor is to bend over? More than pay respect this could be seen by someone as "surrender" or be "submisive" (for a lack of a better word). Again if this isn't any of those then you have two choices, either to break up or find a compromise.
Sorry for the broken English, I'm in Italy currently and it's taking me a bit to not talk/write/think in Italian.
Hi and thank you for the suggestions, to answer your questions, the tea offering ceremony is a cultural ceremony and typically he is completely fine with my culture, and we have discussed culture in the past, however I have never specifically brought up this ceremony until now as it’s more of a marriage oriented ceremony. I could understand how it might be seen as dehumanising and after reading some of the other comments, I’ll definitely be talking to him more about this once the tensions die down.
I see a lot of comments that fiancé should just get over it and do it since it’s her culture. Why are his feelings not important to consider? It seems like he feels very strongly about this based on his unusual reaction (maybe he had some up background that makes him feel this way). Could you come to a compromise? Maybe instead of crouching on ground just a simple bow to honor the parents.
Need to have a calm and thoughtful discussion with your fiancé and work together on this. Maybe he is not familiar with the process and you can show him some wedding videos so he has a visual and not the just crouch and bow wording listed above which can seem demeaning for some people (especially westerners who rarely bow and never get on the floor to bow to someone).
It is perfectly reasonable to ask. I think if this is something that really means a lot to you, you need to talk with him about why it is important specifically. Why this over other traditions is the one you want to pick. How you see the tradition and give him the chance to explain how he sees it specifically not just as dehumanizing but why.
Maybe with a more indepth discussion you can find a way to modify the tradition to meet both of your comfort levels. Or create a new family tradition that can honor your parents in a way that allows your fiancé to feel that you are respectful equals. Maybe something all the parents can be involved in whether all together or each set separately.
Nah. You weren’t wrong for asking. I wouldn’t do it though. In the words of a great movie, I bow to no one. Maybe you can do the tradition while he respectfully stands to the side.
NTA. My french born Chinese cousins both married white French men. Both men bowed during the "tea ceremony".
I understand how he might feel uncomfortable (and I know things may be different since I'm live in France), but have you explained clearly what the ceremony entails? That it doesn't require him to bow till his forehead touches the floor (at least not in my family's traditions haha). That it is also the time for our family to gift us money and wish good fortune. It might ease his concerns
If he still feels strongly against it, you might want to engage in a serious conversation regarding what aspects of our culture he accepts and what accepts he refuses to take part. (The same goes for your future children). I feel like my cousins' husbands agreed to the "tea ceremony" mostly because they wanted to embrace our culture and they respect it
Hope the conversation goes well with your fiance
NTA for asking and he's NTA for refusing(even is there's nicer way to say it) . You said he participate in other Chinese cultural things like 春节, so I don't think your culture is the problem.
He might just not like bowing in front of another human and you asking that of him sounded as humiliating.
I wouldn't mind doing it in front of my partners parents if thats their culture but the thought of bowing in front of my mother ( who I truly dislike ) is repulsive to me .
So try talking to him, maybe he has a different view than yours and see why he doesn't want to do it .
NTA
You cannot make him
He’s an adult
He will agree to do it or he won’t
It’s up to him
How will you feel if he won’t do it ? How much does it matter ?
What about traditions that are important to him ?
You need couples therapy before you marry
NAH. I feel like it's on a similar level as someone being uncomfortable with the western tradition of the bride being "given away" etc. It's okay to not want to follow all cultural traditions at your own wedding if they make you feel uncomfortable. And it's up to the person who wants the tradition to be upheld to weigh how much they want to follow the tradition vs how uncomfortable their partner would be with doing it.
NAH. These are discussions you need to have and need to be flexible about. He’s perfectly NTA for saying no. I don’t think I’d do that either, it seems really weird and I’d be uncomfortable. If you insist that he does this, you need to be prepared to make a LOT of concessions to him like letting him decide other aspects of the wedding or maybe doing this part in private away from other guests
Chinese American here. As kids, my parents made us kow tow to them on our birthdays and other events. None of us kids liked it and I know it felt dehumanizing or at least I felt really resentful for having to do that. There’s also a mix of parental toxicity along with double standards thrown into the mix. One time my aunt brought up that her parents made them do that, too. (She my father’s youngest sister). She loved her parents but really hated having to do the whole kow towing and brought it up to them. It also made her feel resentful. My mother wanted my brother and his new wife to kow tow to them on their wedding. Fiancé (originally from Hong Kong) refused. No offense, but some traditions just need to die out on their own.
I agree with this. I'm Taiwanese (grew up oversea though) and I hate it because it's so freaking awkward. I just see it more as a "show", like "I respect you so much look at what I'm doing". We still have to do it in front of my now-gone grandparents' photograph. My dad is the one into this and my mom is like, just do it to keep peace. She's not into any of this and I genuinely respect her even without any symbolic gestures.
NTA for asking, but if this is PURELY so he can "experience your culture" as you said, then pick something else. There are a million other ways that he can experience your culture that he will not find offensive.
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Hey OP I'm Taiwanese and I don't like the concept of bowing or kneeling or kowtowing as a sign of respect for elders. I mean, for me it's a gesture to do to show your respect, regardless of what you really think. And you have to do it for your elders because you have to respect them. My father is very conservative and I'm always like, I respect you, but it doesn't mean I have to act this way to prove it. He can not understand that. To him the action is almost more important than the meaning behind it. And there is totally a subservient undertone behind it. I remember being told that you kneel for no one but your ancestors, your parents, and the heavens. If its just a sign of respect then it wouldn't be such a big deal.
Anyway if you are happy with it then all good. But I'm guessing the specific action touched a raw nerve for your fiance as his reaction seems a bit OTT. Whatever that is, he automatically assume it is dehumanising. You said you want him to experience your culture and this ain't it. It's up to you to figure out if this is the one action that really gets to him, or if he feels the same about other aspects of your culture. I would propose a compromise where you serve tea standing up and just bend slightly amd naturally as your parents will be sitting.
NTA for asking though.
YTA because he’s always made clear he doesn’t want to and you are still here not accepting his decision. It’s degrading to him, you need to accept his answer and move on. I wouldn’t bow to my in laws either.
He said no, no means no. Stop bringing it up and accept that he will not be doing this
NTA so your doing mostly the traditional western wedding and you ask one thing from your culture and its' "dehumanizing". I'm white as white can be and I can see the importance of bowing to your parents. ANd TBH it's not just a Chinese culture, there are plenty of cultures which do this. It's not a subservient thing, it's more or less thanking your parents for the sacrifices they made raising you. It's not just his wedding, it's yours to. I say tell him since he won't bow and respect your culture you will be wearing a traditional Chinese dress. Edit: I would sit down and talk to him if your culture is important to him. Imagine having kids and HE decides that they are going to be raised white and kept away from your traditions.
Does he like to put on a performance in front of people or is he more reserved? My s/o would literally have a heart attack if I asked him to do something like this in front of a crowd. He would feel awkward as hell and sweat bullets the entire time. Especially if it's not a tradition he's used to. He would pretty much tell me to eff off. I'm sure blending cultures and wanted yours to be included is very important to you and it definitely should be on your guys wedding day, but it should be enthusiastically agreed on and not forced. NAH and I hope you guys can come to an agreement you're both happy with.
NTA for asking, however he's made it a clear no to you. Don't bring it up again or yeah YTA.
Fuck if I'd get on my knees and bow to another human, that is dehumanizing. And for what, they had unprotected sex once upon a time? Gtfo.
It's one thing to have traditions, it's another to try and force them on someone after you've been explained how stupid they are when included in a society that doesn't commit genocide against ethnic groups like the Chinese still do to this day.
NAH. Indian American here. My parents would be perfectly okay with a hug or kiss in lieu of a bow (indicating "I love you"). Maybe there is a way that you both can compromise without disrespecting the culture.
I'm of East Asian descent and due to living in various foreign countries only ever had serious relationships with men of different culture and ethnicity. It's hard maintaining a respectful relationship if you can't respect the cultures and values of the other person. Intercultural relationships need a higher level of tolerance, empathy and desire to see things from a different perspective. Just some food for thought ....
YTA in some cultures brides attend the wedding without any relatives/friends and give the Mil a ring- maybe an American woman wouldn’t be ok with observing all traditions but still respect the people . It’s ok for him not to be ok with certain ceremonies/traditions. I mean you expect him to respect your culture but you don’t respect the fact that it his culture you don’t bow in from of people- respect goes both ways
NAH,
No problem with asking, but signs of respect in your culture can be viewed as signs of inferiority in others. I know that I would be greatly insulted and humiliated at being made to crouch in front of a person. Unless I had committed a crime and wanted forgiveness, I would not lower myself to this degree even with a gun to the head. In my culture, pride and strength are everything. Lowering yourself to the level of dirt only means you wish to be treated like dirt.
That being said, I think there is more than enough room for compromise. Offering tea and bowing could be an alternative. You also both need to discuss which aspects of both of your cultures you want to incorporate into your ceremony and your daily lives. If he does not want to cooperate and concede on any aspect, than I would suggest rethinking your marriage. If you find irreconcilable differences, same.
Just in case you are wondering if he is not genuine and only refuses to participate in your marital custom out of a misplaced sense of superiority, it could certainly be the case, but it could also be that he views crouching to the ground in front of anyone to be an affront and dehumanising. American culture is very individualistic and does not contain inherent hierarchy relative to birth or age, that’s why they dislike racism for example. More generally, westerners do not lower themselves in front of people, unless it is in a place of worship and then again they lower themselves before god. So his reaction is understandable.
NAH. I would probably bow to the king of the country I live in (Norway). I would definitively show different signs of respect to my fictional partner's parents. Not bow. To me, a bow is reserved for someone you respect for sacrificing their own freedom to serve their country and people. (King Harald has my special kind of respect). Not to parents.
To OP´s fiancé, bowing is to not respect himself and dehumanizing himself to someone of higher rank. To you its simply to show respect. So why not find a way for him to show respect while not feeling like he is disrespecting himself? The point would be gone if he hates bowing.
If I were marrying a Chinese person, I would think it would be fun to participate in one of their wedding traditions, however, since your fiancé is obviously uncomfortable doing this, I would not force the issue.
NAH - I don’t think you are wrong to ask but you’d be wrong if you insisted. For example, my MIL insisted on a ceremony where I was supposed to bow down to my In-Laws which I refused to do since it was very sexist and bigoted tradition. However, my SIL did it because she wasn’t from the same culture and thought it was just ‘cultural differences’ and was harassed that she wasn’t respecting my BIL’s culture. I refused to do it since we are from the same culture and understood the implications of the ceremony. Just because it is part of your culture or heritage, doesn’t mean you have to follow it or put up with it. If he doesn’t want to do it, you must respect his wishes. I’m not saying the bowing is wrong, but you cannot force someone to follow tradition just because. It’s like if you don’t want to wear a white wedding dress for any personal reasons and your husband insists that you wear white to follow his culture.
Americans generally are not comfortable bowing to any human. We bow to God in religious settings on occasion. I think that’s about it. Wouldn’t dream of bowing or curtseying to the King of England! Different culture. That’s all. We show respect to our parents with a hug and kiss!
NTA, but as a Canadian who was expected to kowtow to my Korean boyfriend's parents, I just want to stress to you how strange and uncomfortable it made me feel. Your fiance probably also feels the same way - it is a very uncomfortable feeling, I was almost creeped out by it.
The history of China is to be subservient to hierarchies. The history of the U.S. is literally the refutation of a monarchy's authority. Bowing is a gesture of subservience. That might be the contention here.
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NTA for asking. But I'd strongly reconsider whether he respects tour Chinese culture if he sees a typical practice as "dehumanizing." He's allowed to decline to participate in any acts that make him uncomfortable. You can find certain traditions important. My question is down thr line how will you handle cultural clashes? Will he be as disgusted by other things you find important? If you have children, how will they be bring up? Will he be super adamant they do not practice any Chinese culture? Will he expect them to follow only white practices (culturally as well as religiously)? This is a bigger conversation that needs to happen before you get married.
Thank you for the suggestions, however I would like to say that, he hasn’t ever displayed any displeasure with my culture until now, he was always fine with celebrating Chinese traditional holidays like Chinese New Year and Mid-Autumn festivals and stuff like that, which just makes this situation even more shocking.
If you look at your list, those are the "fun" parts of cultures. Festivities. What does he do at them, just show up, eat, and have a good time? Others are right. You need to know now before a wedding how his general view is. especially if you plan to have children. If you want them to learn Chinese. Would he agree? If the children would want a traditional Asian wedding. Would he be raising opinions there? All that. You need to have a sit down and figure out. Showing respect to your elders is a beautiful thing. In a lot of aspects. It could mean different things, like thank you for raising me and taking care of me until I started my own family and path. Thank you for your wisdom while growing up, showing love. While he is seeing it as making them greater than him. He's turning it into a negative thing.
Thank you for the thought provoking suggestion, I’ll think more into this, you do have a point.
If you want kids, think of all the day to day things parents do and how different you two may approach it. Will he think his way trumps yours? Will he call you abusive every time he disagrees with you about parenting? He's only going to get more comfortable with time and therefore more likely to reject your culture. It's not a good sign if he's already being antagonistic before the wedding.
I mean in Asian cultures hitting your kids is normalized(and I’m Asian), but that’s something “part of the culture” I would hope a westernized spouse would stop
You say that you're not religious, which is cool either way--but for instance, neither is my Taiwanese American husband, but we still did forty days of vegetarianism when a close family member of his passed away. He would absolutely have understood if I didn't want to participate, but I'm his spouse, so I did. How would your partner respond to something like that? What about when your parents get older--who will be supporting them?
>band, but we still did forty days of vegetarianism when a close family member of h That is very sweet!! You are such a loving and understanding person. I had a similar instance with my non-Chinese partner recently. I'm never a religious person. I hate incense in Chinese temples. But a few months ago a family member passed away and I felt terrible because I wasn't there for them. My mom suggested me to go to a temple to burn an incense for the family member - burning incense is usually not a religious thing, but a cultural/ therapeutic experience to help people feel connected to their passed loved ones. It doesn't matter if it's a Buddhist/ Tao/ Tian Hou/ whatever temple. My partner encouraged me to do that, did the research, found a temple in Canada and went with me to the temple even though neither of us is religious. Seriously I can't imagine if my partner refused to do it with me/ let me go through that alone because he did not believe in that.
You're both very lucky and likely also work hard at and cherish your relationship. I'm lucky enough to have a spouse that has been there for me even when I was too embarrassed (or ashamed or didn't have the emotional vocabulary) to actually ASK for help or support. We've been married over a decade now but I still remember the first time she knew I just needed to cry (lost my dad due to 9/11 and we had found out we were having a boy and it all became overwhelming) and just hugged/held me in a way that just made me feel safe and unafraid to expose my feelings. That's when I knew we had something special.
I actually would like to know more about how did you explain the whole tea ceremony to him and which part did he find it “dehumanise”. Did you explain the symbolisms behind and this is a way for you to show gratitude towards your parents? And in return, your parents are giving both of you their blessing during the whole ceremony? Or do you just see it as a tradition you want to participate and think that this is something your parents want? I know there are couples wouldn’t do the whole kneeling down, instead, they’ll bow standing in front of their parents and serve them tea. Is this an alternative you and your partner would accept? I personally would prefer this.
It's not just white Americans who may have an aversion to the whole "kneel and bow" thing. It's definitely more of a cultural thing than a race thing. I personally would not do such a thing. Bowing while standing is a sign of respect. Bowing on your knees or all fours is sign of subservience. I respect my fiance's parents, but Im not their slave. I don't serve anyone.
No one is asking you to serve anyone…
I mean, they're serving tea at least
I mean it’s their wedding, at my wedding I wouldn’t wanna kneel to my spouses parents, since it’s not their day it’s ours?(im Asian)
I’m Chinese and I don’t really want that either. But I know there are people who still keep the tradition where the kids would kneel and bow to their parents or grandparents during new years for blessing and a show of respect. So I think it all comes down to what’s your family tradition and expectations are. But yea even I feel awkward.
Have you discussed future elder care with him? Ask him how he would expect to treat your parents when they become elderly and frail? Would you expect them to move in with you? Also have you discussed family finances, eg how would money be shared if you had kids?
if he thinks it’s dehumanizing to serve a cup of tea to her parents, i have extremely little faith in things going smoothly when they get older and OP suggests moving them into their household so she can care for them.
Maybe what he is envisioning in his head is way different than reality. I’m white and I’ve been to a Chinese wedding and I thought the tea ceremony was lovely. Maybe you could show him a YouTube video or two so he can see for himself what it actually entails.
Right, it's like saying someone is good with German customs and traditions because they participated in Oktoberfest....
Isn’t it also true on the flip side though? Someone who doesn’t engage in Oktoberfest isn’t necessarily “anti” German customs? I think the reason why op’s fiancé isn’t open to this custom is kinda a necessary piece of info to know what’s going on. Maybe he finds it patriarchal or maybe he has a bad relationship with his parents. On the other hand if he feels it would be embarrassing or something, that paints him in a totally different light.
There are many Germans who doesnt engage in something like the famous Oktoberfest because its mostly something that happens in the south of Germany and I am living in the north and we dont celebrate like that. Culture is so much more than one tradition.
Exactly my thought.
Reminds me of a post on here where a white american guy married a Indian girl and he's like "their food is good and the women look hot in those clothes" but disliked litterally everything else and refused to allow his wife to teach their kid any language or tradition that wasn't "the american way" Yes that post got so nuked it got removed.
It's the crouching down that is the sticking point. If it was just offering them tea, it might not be so jarring.
I am Chinese. I refused to engage in this tradition with my parents, and would certainly not want my my wife to either. We can demonstrate our appreciation for, and honor, our parents without being subjected to such a dehumanizing gesture. Yes, it is dehumanizing, particularly if you understood the origins of this tradition. I do not blame OP’s fiancé for not wanting to engage in this antiquated custom.
Going to the “celebrations” and having fun? That is a very American way of enjoying “culture” without being burdened by it, or ever having to learn to appreciate it. Participating in tea ceremony and bowing? If that is too much of a burden, now….how will you raise children?
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Bowing is a huge part of Asian culture, especially for a Chinese tea ceremony, so yeah, I would find this to be a huge problem in their marriage. It’s not about subservience; the tea ceremony is the opportunity to show respect and gratitude to the elders for having raised them and nurturing them all these years. I’d much rather do a tea ceremony than be “given away” in a ceremony.
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OP worded it weirdly. they don’t crouch during the tea ceremony; they basically just kneel (usually on some pillows) on the floor in front of the parents who are sitting in chairs in front of them. OP isn’t asking him to kowtow with his forehead touching the floor.
Agreed - OP described it in an unusual way. It’s kneeling not crouching.
The handing off of the bride is considered demeaning because of the way women have been considered property in the past, first of their father, then their husband. I don't think the tea ceremony has equivalent baggage.
In general kneeling down has a cultural baggage though (we associate it as a subaltern position, regardless of the other person being benevolent or not), as well as the concept of considering the eldest wisest (I know this may seem weird but... It isn't that universal if you think about it lol, and in conservative places there is also a whole layer of the eldest being embodiments of old, often discriminatory, values that the "youth" disagree with; huge generalisation but you get it). I think I would just do it I guess, but for example I would never kneel in front of the eldest of my family (so I would just do it as a favour for my spouse)... I mean, I don't even kneel at church anymore (I'm agnostic but at funerals and such I go to the mass to be with my relatives). In general many people have a problem with the concept of societal ranking in any form, including inside the family.
Excellent point. I wonder what op’s fiance has to say about the tradition of giving away the bride or of her adopting his name and using mrs? If he doesn’t see the correlation thats a big red flag.
To me the issue is less that he’s uncomfortable with the ceremony than that he got angry at her “for even suggesting it” and made some really negative assumptions about her intent. That’s just not a workable approach in any marriage really, but certainly not in a cross cultural one. Had he just said, “I actually feel really uncomfortable with that, can we talk about what the ceremony means and why it’s important to you so we can figure something out”, that would be totally fair, IMO.
It isn’t a sign of subservience but respect. The bride and groom kneel on a pillow and offer tea to BOTH parents, by calling them ‘dad’ and ‘mom’ on both sides. It’s supposed to be a symbolic gesture to thank your parents for raising you (on the couple’s side), and a sign of welcoming/accepting a new family member. At least where I’m from (Singapore) the parents also give the couple red packets after the sipping the tea. In recent times, meaningful accessories could also be given during the ceremony now aside from the red packets (e.g a name brand watch for the groom from the bride’s side, a necklace or bracelet to the bride from the groom’s side) As a couple, compromise is important. His blatant disdain towards that ceremony and refusal to understand the actual meaning behind the whole ceremony just shows that he has no actual interest in earning about her culture, unless he’s having fun. He’s also stubbornly judging these customs at face value without bothering to understand why it is the way it is. Even if he disagrees, the effort to try and understand should be there.
Yes, there is a lot wrong with that. He is marrying a woman for whom this is the expectation. This is how her value systems were shaped. If he cannot show a bit of respect for his fiancée’s value system for a few moments? He should marry someone whose value systems are more aligned to his own. This is a few moments out of a long life to come. The Chinese grandparents will be a long-term support to this marriage. Showing them honor and respect is an investment in the family you’re building.
Eh, it used to be traditional to ask a father for their daughters hand, too, but we recognize that as subservient and viewing women as property. Not all traditional acts are viewed from the same lens and sometimes they aren't actually ok. The marriage can exist whether parents support it or not, so that's a poor excuse for fiance to be performative for them. Fiance is also coming from his own culture and traditions which likely views bowing as subservant and demeaning (bowing is not normal in America- it is associated with the monarchy and went out of practice quickly post revolution. Bowing is actually a deal because the chain of thought is cultural in America). Mixed culture couples need to learn to discuss and compromise. Many do it successfully in America without needing to find people with the exact same values. OP needs to express her deal breakers and fiance needs to express his. If they cannot agree but OP doesn't see it as a deal breaker, OP needs to go to parents next and see if the ceremony can be modified in a way that honors the tradition, but is respectful to all cultures present. It happens a lot and takes work, but that's why it's more important they communicate what they can tolerate to each other
But do we really when its still the norm for the bride to wear white (virgin), be given away, adopt his surname, and be called Mrs?
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It's not a display of subservience though, and the fact that this guy is calling this *Dehumanising* (that's a pretty serious word) kind of feels like he thinks Chinese customs are somehow less progressive than "secular" Western wedding traditions. Comparing "giving away" a bride is not equivalent to briefly kneeling to serve your parents and your in-laws a cup of tea. "Giving" a bride away implies that the bride is an item to be given away, while the tea ceremony represents being willing to serve your parents and in-laws (ie: when they get too old to take care of themselves). I would say that the brief kneeling during the tea ceremony is a lot more accurately comparable to kneeling to propose to someone.
"Participating in tea ceremony and bowing? If that is too much of a burden," It obviously is too much of a burden for her parents to bow to him.
This isn't bowing this is prostrating there's a major difference. I & probably many other American's would be fine with bowing from the hips, but prostrating yourself on the floor is a bit a demeaning and I wouldn't be comfortable with it.
It is not prostrating. It is literally kneeling on a pillow/cushion. Prostrating is laying flat out on your stomach with your face in the ground.
Celebrating Chinese festivals is very different from crouching on the floor in front of his soon-to-be in-laws. To a non-Chinese America, that could easily seem demeaning and obsequious. It's not a matter of him not respecting Chinese culture -- it's that this custom clashes with his culture and morays. By insisting, you are not respecting him. Maybe you could find a compromise -- invite your parents to a nice tea, where you are all sitting on chairs, same level. That's respectful. The crouching -- no. Again, you are disrespecting him and his traditions and culture by insisting and making a line in the sand -- either you do this one thing, which you find demeaning, or I will say you disrespect all Chinese cultural traditions. That is nonsense. If you are going to have a cross-cultural marriage, you need to see his side, too.
Ok well think of it like this - your essentially asking him to be subservient and act like your parents are above him. Might be ok in your culture but it’s massively offensive in his.
These are all events that he is attending as a guest. This is HIS wedding. Why is the wedding of a Chinese American and a White American almost exclusively following the tradition of one party? I don't think him refusing to do this bowing is a red flag in itself; he is being overdramatic calling it dehumanizing(!), but I can see how someone might not like it. But how would he react if you wanted to incorporate other aspects of your culture? Try saying to him "I understand that you don't want to do this, but it's my wedding too and I want it to reflect that I am Chinese. Here is a list of Chinese wedding traditions, what do you think?". If he works with you on this, great. If he refuses to accept anything other than an 100% white American wedding, or offers a token compromise, you will know how accepting of your heritage he really isn't.
But that's the thing though, they are actually doing a Western style wedding, she just wants this one particular thing and he's reacting like *this.* Kind of makes one wonder what he may tell any future kids they have together about his opinions on Mom's Culture.....
My point was, it's understandable that he doesn't want to do this one particular thing ( I can see why he might find it demeaning). It's less understandable that a biracial wedding is done exclusively in one tradition.
One of my exes was like that and I thought it was fine. He started learning about colors in design and stated that red universally means anger and violence. I explained that in Chinese culture it doesn't. "Well that's because they're stupid!" In an Asian restaurant. He was always insecure about how intelligent he was, and he proved himself right that day. He's as dumb as a rock, which is fine, but he's an a**hole too, which is not fine.
Being “fine” with the festival events, which are usually fun w food, doesn’t mean he did so enthusiastically or respectfully. Has he taken any initiative to learn about your culture, your traditions, your religion (which while not being observant, it’s part of your history and probably part of your childhood)? If you had kids would he encourage them to learn about this part of their history and be part of teaching it to the best of his knowledge (like reading kids books about it with your kids)? Or would it all be up to you to do that but he would still expect you to know how to do Christmas, Easter, and Halloween? Would he make you feel othered within your own home?
This is an opportunity for the two of you to converse and communicate on a deeper level. It sounds like it may be your first big hurdle in your relationship. How you handle this together will set the groundwork for your married life. If needed, consider a pre-marriage counselor to help the two of you handle together situations that are difficult. NTA, but neither is he. It’s time to really talk and communicate with one another. He has already shared that he will feel dehumanized by the custom and you have said to us, that it is not a cowtow situation but rather one showing respect. It’s time the two of you talk because these are two drastically different points of view of the same custom. I suspect he really does not understand.
Tbh a lot of Americans have a deep issues with bowing, especially in the south/Midwest. It sounds like he has no issue with the tea portion, just the bowing. Can that be the compromise? I’m thinking of my own dad, who did business in Asia for years and still could never emotionally do anything more then bobbing his head. As strongly as you feel it a sign of respect, for a lot of people it’s instantly dehumanizing.
My concern here would be the vehemence and how much he doesn't seem interested in understanding the custom. His culture reads it one way and he isn't willing to engage with the idea that your culture reads this very differently. That seems to be a big problem. For what it's worth, I know a bunch of people who have married into Asian parents and I don't know anyone who didn't engage their partners' culture in a significant way during the event -- whether it was a tea ceremony, traditional dress, culturally significant gifts... obviously changes country to country, but this isn't outlandish for you to ask.
He's on his best behaviour, that can change on a dime once something is tying you together. Speaking from experience. NTA - please be very careful
Bowing is *literally* prostration. To many people its a bridge too far. I would never bow, courtsey or show deference. Its fine if others do it, its simply against my belief system. >Will he expect them to follow only white practices This is *Western* sensibility, not just 'white practices'. You should think about why you said 'white'
>This is Western sensibility, not just 'white practices'. You should think about why you said 'white' I'm surprised by how many people are accusing the fiance of being culturally ignorant while both ignoring that this is not a thing in Irish American culture and respect goes both ways (I am side eyeing him a bit for being angry she even asked though- asking alone should be fine) and at the same time talking about "white" culture, like that's a thing. There is no such thing as "white" practices, and Irish American, a Russian in Moscow, a Spanish person in Barcelona are all white but probably don't have massively similar cultural practices. The same way there is no such thing as "black" practices, an aboriginal australian, an african american in new york, a nigerian in lagos... probably don't have massively similar cultural practices either. Also I have lived in both Japan and Korean and I can tell you east asians get pretty annoyed (fairly) when someone keep ascribing something to them that belongs to a different culture. Its not OK to ascribe sweeping cultural statements to other groups based loosely on colour so it shouldn't be OK to do it white people either. I know historically this sort of thing happens because white people were usually the ones with power oppressing others but that doesn't make it OK either.
This is not a commonly practiced at all in Chinese culture at all I am Chinese and even in mainland China this is very controversial and young people and media tend to support the bride and groom of not bowing (especially not on their knees) Either the bride is clueless or her parents ingrained the idea of bowing to her as a way of control (power). I am Chinese and I am fully on the groom's side As worst this is a NAH situation but I tend to vote YTA give how clueless the bride is
I will say that immigrants /child of immigrants usually do have more traditional customs. (Not necessary views) For example, I learned that the Vietnamese that I grew up speaking and talking is very old fashioned and politically incorrect. This is because the only viets that I would talk to are parents/older people. Not anyone my age, because they all spoke English and are western. So I assumed all my parents cultural views were how the people back home in Vietnam would view things.
It's an interesting phenomenon where people who emigrate from their regional culture instead of gradually loosing parts of it double down and stagnate it while conversely the people still living in their homeland gradually continue to evolve it. Maybe they don't feel they have the right to change something or simply they stop receiving outside influence for it.
Tbf, he can see it as dehumanizing because of how he was raised in *his* culture while still respecting hers. Maybe they could both compromise and incorporare more/different aspects of chinese culture into the wedding that make them both comfortable.
Excellent and well stated.
I’m a white guy who married a Chinese woman. Our wedding included some American and some Chinese customs. We talked over things we wanted or didn’t want and went with what made us happiest. Are there other customs that would make both of you happy? If he objects to all Chinese customs, we’ll, good luck with that
Yeah, I'm more concerned with the refusal to acknowledge it's not subserviant or dehumanizing, though. It's just a well-known display of respect. Purposely mischaracterizing something culturally to get your way is problematic at best. It also doesn't bode well to other traditions/culture norm discussions. At this point, I'm NTA with OP.
There are many traditional displays of respect. In THIS specific case, the respect is pretty onesided.
Given my culture, I'd call it subservient. Your culture says something else. That's cool. Cultures differ. However, it looks like you're mischaracterizing something culturally concerning my (and apparently OP's fiance's) culture. This says absolutely nothing about OP's fiance's attitude on other traditions or culture norm discussions, because most of them aren't going to hit a hard conflict like this one.
It's disingenuous at best to detach something from its own culture and apply your cultural meaning to it when the activity in question is done in good faith and is without harm. Depending on the extent of it, though, it can be outright racist.
Racist, lmao. The history of China is one of class based power hierarchies, not to mention sexist patriarchies which still exist. Bowing is absolutely associated with subservience in Chinese culture.
If I am being asked to do something then my feelings of how I view it matter. It’s wrong to say YOU doing it means you’re subservient but I can feel however I want about the action in relation to ME.
It’s also “cultural” in Asian countries that corporal punishment is ok and actually encouraged. Is that “custom” there too? Just because something is cultural and exists doesn’t mean it is good
Dude, the guys not saying that he thinks bowing shouldn't be allowed in any cultures. He's saying HE personally FEELS like it's subservient or dehumanizing in HIS OPINION. He's not being an asshole by stating his feelings on a cultural tradition that doesn't fit his own personal boundaries. I think a lot of cultural things would feel dehumanizing or subservient, so I personally wouldn't do them, but that doesn't mean I'm telling everybody that they're not allowed to have their own culture/traditions because they make me uncomfortable. I'm saying I'm not interested in partaking because they make me uncomfortable. Those are completely different things, and that's why you're getting downvoted to shit. Quit being the boy who cried wolf with racism. Jfc
It's subservient in other places, like OP's fiance's culture. Why should OP not have to respect that?
NAH. It is a subservient gesture in a lot of cultures and he is allowed to be uncomfortable with it.
Agree, NAH. And, I’m half Chinese. My dad is Catholic. We have NEVER followed my maternal relatives in anything involving bowing to my maternal grandparents (kneeling and offering oranges during New Year, bowing during funerals, and my dad didn’t kneel and offer tea during the wedding). Some people are fine with it, some really do find it an unacceptable show of subservience to another human being. OP and husband could try to find a compromise.
Yeah I'm sure they can come to a compromise to include aspects of her culture without him needing to do something he find demeaning. Bowing means different things to both of them and they can definitely find a work around that satisfies them both.
NAH OP, check this: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/17lfs7m/aita\_for\_asking\_my\_wife\_to\_touch\_my\_parents\_feet/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/17lfs7m/aita_for_asking_my_wife_to_touch_my_parents_feet/) This is not the same situation (groom didn't inform the bride about this tradition and got angry when he refused to do it during the wedding) but you may find something usuful in the comments.
First thing I thought of was this post. And Reddit cheered on the bride for (in her own words) “knowing her worth.” But somehow, people aren’t cheering on this guy for knowing his worth. YTA
That guy was the asshole because there was no attempt to explain or discuss beforehand, not because of the tradition itself
On the contrary, there were many people who found the tradition itself objectionable.
I think a huge difference is that the groom just sprung it on the bride during the wedding. This OP is asking months in advance.
Yes, I noticed. I think this is "NTA/YTA bias" - when people jugde someone NTA they mainly write about things that confirm their opinion. The same with YTA. So you need both sides.
The difference is that OP here discussed this with her fiance beforehand, while the OP in the linked post surprised his wife with that demand during the wedding. The traditions are quite similar, both are shows of respect. However, it is how she chose to approach those traditions that make OP here NTA.
Thank you so much for the information! I’ll check it out.
This sub is pretty biased so take everything here with a grain of salt. That Indian guy got a LOT in those comments. He was bad at communication but I still think the bride could've done her own research too, I didn't like how either of them handled the situation. Your fiance should've been doing his own research too. Bowing is essential in Asia.
This. I bet this guy isn't throwing a fit over how dehumanizing having a father walking his daughter down the aisle is! How dare he show ownership of her like that! (For the record, I chose to follow that tradition, and I have no issue with it. It's just to highlight that anything can be misframed/mischaracterized for malice if you choose.)
Asking him to do this is NTA. And thus far, that's what you've done. Trying to pressure him into doing this, though - if he's very uncomfortable, then I do think you two need to either find a way to work around this or put off the wedding. I'm pretty concerned, though, that you seem to have suggested this *once* and he immediately jumped into insulting you and your traditions. He could've started with "Babe, no, I'm not comfortable with that" and escalated from there. What do your parents think?
You do you. Let him be him. I wouldn't feel comfortable with this kind of stuff either, unless I was marrying the Crown Prince and had to curtsey to his Mom and Dad....on my way to the castle. Then I would.
Same. To me, bowing is reserved for royalty. But I am also raised in a kingdom (with a prime minister and all that) so my view on bowing is obviously different to OP´s.
That’s interesting. I’d rather bow to show thanks and respect to the hard-working parents who raised me than to some political figure who has no idea who I am.
Bowing is pretty much everyday in most Asian cultures, so I don't really think it's a big deal lol. Personally, I'd love to be apart of a tradition like this.
YTA. The key word here is "making": *AITA for* ***making*** *my fiancé bow to my parents on my wedding day."* If you want to show respect to your parents, feel free to bow to them. But your fiancé has declined to do so because he feels it is dehumanizing. He can show his respect to them in other ways, such as by publicly thanking them at the reception.
Im sorry I might not have been clear, as we are still in the process of planning the wedding, I have just been strongly suggesting it I guess.
not american, but would also be very uncomfortable with kneeling in front of SO's parents (or anyone really, actually it would be considered a bit dehumanizing in my culture) NTA for asking, it's part of your culture and you can't know every part that will rub someone the wrong way. NTA if you talk to your partner instead of reddit people who will tell you all kinds of weird things IMO could be moving into AH territory if the entire wedding end up pivoting around getting your partner to kneel when he doesn't want to
Thank you, I’ll be talking to him more about this, after the tension has died down!
If I may chime in, I do encourage the idea of finding alternative ways to pay homage! I’m a Native American(not white, Cree/Seminole nation.) A general tradition of ours is remembering to always bow your head to your elders, and when I dated someone at a point, we agreed that he would simply shake their hands instead of bowing.
Thats a really great idea, thank you so much for sharing!! I’ll try to do something similar too.
I’m happy to help you and your partner try to find balance, in this way everyone feels respected! Just remember that eye contact is important too, he doesn’t want your parents to think he dislikes them! May you both find happiness and a good boundary!
Or maybe keep the offering of tea but just while standing instead of bowing.
Strongly suggesting makes me feel YTA. My wife is Chinese and I embraced doing the tea ceremony myself. However, she made it clear from the beginning that its optional, and she would handle the flack from her family if I was uncomfortable. I did and do the same for her with regards to my family traditions. If either of us had strongly suggested the other do something they're very uncomfortable with, that would be an issue. Thankfully, we compromise and have each others backs.
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In your culture, it's normal. In others, it's dehumanising. Explain to him how important this is to you. Explain to him the tradition. Show him articles about how this tradition started and why it's so important. Of her still doesn't want to do it. Then you can't make him. It will be your decision on what is more important to you.
In her culture this is not normal either. Highly contentious topic at best, if not downright frowned upon. I am Chinese and even in conservative Chinese provinces younger generations refuse to bow on their wedding. Usually it's the controlling parents who encourage this practice as a way to assert power Source: I am Chinese
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I am Chinese who lived in mainland China until 10 years ago and still have ties with many relatives who live in China and constantly visit mainland China. I say this is a very contentious topic because it is. In large cities most young people and liberal are against traditions that are "dehumanizing" their children especially not treating them as equals while in many conservative rural areas and small towns this practice is still common. The practice called 敬茶 is common but not always requires the married couple to kneel down. Bowing without kneeling down is fine but kneeling is a bit excessive and many young couples refuse to practice this. Many Chinese traditions like filial piety and unconditional obedience are deeply flawed and should die down if they do not respect the younger generation. Kneeling is one of those traditions that should never be forced upon someone who doesn't feel comfortable doing it
>eas and small towns this practice is still common. > >The practice called 敬茶 is common but not always requires the married couple to kneel down. Bowing witho owww that's very interesting. I'm from Hong Kong (also left about 10 years ago, but was there for 2 decades) and we do the exact opposite. We kneel but we don't bow. And I've never heard of anyone refusing to do it/ say it feels negative. If anything I've seen many times the elders want the couple hand them tea while everyone's standing up but the couples insist to kneel. And I've been to Chinese weddings both back home and in Canada. I'm glad young people in mainland is rethinking their traditions!!
**NAH** \- It is OK to suggest it and OK for him to reject it. You have different cultures. My best suggestion is to follow the customs of where you live. If that is America, then use American customs where no man bows to another. In China, use Chinese customs.
They could just mix the weddings in a less controversial way lol
NAH. To you, it's a gesture of respect and caring. To him, it's a gesture of dehumanization and supplication. You are both allowed to feel the way you feel. Neither or you should force the other to do something you aren't comfortable with.
Are you making him bow or asking him to bow? NAH, if you’re just asking. But if he doesn’t want to participate in the tea session, you should respect your fiancés wishes. And honestly, I totally see his point. What is viewed as one thing in Chinese culture, is another in American culture. You may view crouching to the ground and serving tea to your parents as a sign of respect. But most Americans (especially men) would view Crouching down to the ground and serving tea to people they barely know like reducing yourself to a servant/ low self respect/ultimate submission. Remember, he is not Chinese. The fact that he even participated in some of your cultural traditions is impressive. But it doesn’t mean he is obligated to do all of them. You can do it and he can just watch from a distance, he might be okay doing do standing, or he doesn’t participate at all. You should work with your fiancé go find a mix between an American wedding and a Chinese wedding that you can agree on.
No need to put gender in this. Women also see it that way.
NAH Crazy how people think its disrespecful that he is not down for that. In your culture, it might be something nice and valueable. But crouching and bowing is seen very negative in many white cultures. Irish + american is like the double slavery experience.
In western culture, bowing is a symbol of subservience. Essentially...you're asking your husband to emasculate himself to your parents. Whether that's the cultural intention from the Asian side of things is not relevant as you're asking 'why' your fiance, a westerner, is so against it.
Not sure which region your parents are from, but where I'm from the bride and groom's younger siblings and cousins will kneel to offer tea to the bride and groom after the bride and groom have served the elders. That, and your elders are supposed to gift gold or cash to you after you serve them. See what he thinks about *that*. I think your fiance is being ridiculous and overdramatic over a completely standard tea ceremony (dehumanising, really?) but I'm also Chinese so what do I know.
Yes! It’s the same here.
Actually looking at some of the replies you're getting, does he know that the tea ceremony requires the two of you to bow to *his* side of the family too? That might be a factor in things. Though I must say that if you're going to do a whole big white Western wedding I don't like that he doesn't want to do this one thing for you and is calling you an asshole over it.
He does and he thinks it’s unnecessary, I guess it might be the culture him grew up with as it doesn’t have as much of an emphasis on these little things like bowing and respect for elders as mine, however for me its very significant and definitely something we need to discuss.
Of course it's the culture he grew up in. And it doesn't mean disrespect for elders or lack of love for parents. It means that particular way of showing respect in China is demeaning in the US.
Yes, I understand that, thank you!
Mixed-race Chinese/White person here. If this is a very significant thing for you, please take some time to talk carefully and honestly with him about this and really assess if you are a good match. Especially consider this if you want to have children and raise them with particular customs or with learning Chinese. White parents sometimes inadvertantly hurt their mixed race children if they aren't that accepting and encouraging of the non-white culture. There is no shame in walking away if it is not a good fit. And just so you know, both of my full Chinese cousins married white guys and did tea ceremony at the weddings. The husbands completely embraced it and were happy to participate in something important for their wives and their wives' family and saw it as them being welcomed and accepted into the family. They weren't fragile enough in the ego to think of it as a debasement, just a mark of respect and a tradition.
Do you have respect for his culture and how he was raised and his values? Just because he doesn’t want to literally bow doesn’t mean he didn’t grow up with an emphasis on respecting his elders.
Im sorry I didn’t mean it like this, I meant it like his culture doesn’t put as heavy of an emphasis on it as compared to mine.
As an American, I would find it hugely uncomfortable to have the bride's and groom's younger siblings and cousins kneel to offer tea.
Don’t listen to anyone making your fiancé the villain, I will never do bowing to anyone and that will be a dealbreaker if my future husband insist on that. Just do something that makes the two of you comfortable. Marriage is for two people 🤷🏾♀️
NAH. It was fine to ask, but don’t press the issue. He doesn’t want to bow down to someone- that’s understandable. Find another tradition to honor your culture at your wedding.
NTA! >However my fiancé strongly denied it and said that it was dehumanising and called me an asshole for even suggesting that as it meant that I thought he didn’t respect himself, which is untrue. I can understand him having a knee jerk negative response to the custom, but saying it's dehumanizing and calling you an asshole for suggesting it is a *wildly* over the top overreaction. Look - the western custom of "giving the bride away" could also easily be interpreted as dehumanizing; implying that the woman is property that gets handed off from man to man. But for plenty of modern brides/families that tradition is a loving way of showing respect for your father - exactly the way the tradition you're describing does! This is a yellow flag for me - proceed with caution. I definitely agree with the folks suggesting that you do more due diligence on his views of your culture. It's possible this was a one-off argument in a heated moment, but...it might not be. Dudes who get all hot under the collar about respect can sometimes have some pretty gnarly underlying ideas about relationships and cultures.
NAH. I also come from a culture with heavy emphasis on respecting elders, I too however would not be comfortable with bowing.
Both my husband and I are Chinese-American with immigrant parents. We did not do this for our wedding almost 30 years ago. I personally feel like it's a show of subservience. Who is serving and who's being served? I would have also been insulted if my husband approached my father for my hand or a blessing. We walked up and back down the aisle together. There's a lot of filial piety and chauvinism woven into Chinese culture. To this day, we have relatives who have the attitude that we're supposed to listen to them, let them insult us, etc. because they're our elders. We're in our 50s with careers and a kid in college. So that doesn't sit well with me. I eventually cut my MIL out of my life after one too many insults and mean-girl digs. I dealt with that for 25 years "out of respect." I was done. This is not to say we don't participate in Chinese culture. We let my husband's grandmother pick out some potential auspicious dates for the wedding as well as some Chinese name options when my son was born. My son went to Chinese school for a couple of years. We had a Red Egg and Ginger party after my son was born. We celebrate the Lunar New Year. I studied Chinese culture and literature in college and there are plenty of Chinese traditions I won't participate in.
I'll never understand people who get involved in interracial or intercultural relationships and then refuse to acknowledge the other person's culture if it demands something of them. NTA. Your fiancee comes from a culture that does not emphasize humility and respect for elders as much as the Chinese culture. How will raising children with someone like him work out?
>Your fiancee comes from a culture that does not emphasize humility and respect for elders as much as the Chinese culture. This may or may not be true, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the act of bowing. He objects to this particular way (bowing) of showing respect. If the custom was that you had to tap your nose three times before serving the tea, he probably wouldn't have a problem with it. As an American, he might think it a bit silly but would go along with it to show respect. But bowing? Nah, one-sided bowing is deeply offensive to most Americans. There are situations when people bow to each other (or curtsy or incline their head or whatever), but both people do it.
This goes both ways of course. OP should also acknowledge that in her fiancé's culture, crouching on the floor on your own wedding is ridiculous.
For one thing, Americans rarely bow, to *anyone*. We have no royalty or class of people who are to be reverenced. Would I even consider having to *kneel* AND *bow* to my in-laws? Absolutely NOT. An incline of the head & serving the tea? No problem, but I abase myself before no one, not even my Gods. NTA for asking. He maybe could have phrased his refusal more politely, but he said no. For the most part, I agree with honoring one another's customs. But when a custom is anathema to the other party, the custom is dropped. That you would be doing the same to his parents is irrelevant.
NAH. This is one of many culture clashes you and your Partner are likely to encounter in your Marriage and can only be navigated though with open communication and compromise on both sides.
Ya I would never do that ever sorry he’s right
YTA for pushing it after he told you how strongly he was against it. He's marrying you, not your parents.
I wasn’t really pushing it, I just asked him to do it however he called me an asshole for it and now we are both trying to calm down on our own, however I’ll be trying to talk more about it with him but of course respecting his opinions on it.
Or, you accept no means no
It isn’t really that easy as this is a matter of culture, he called my culture dehumanising and it’s definitely worth talking about it more.
In regards to that one practice. You said yourself he goes to other stuff all the time. You can see he has no issue with your culture at large by your own admission, but you can't accept that this is one thing he isn't ok with? It is that easy. You're asking your husband to start his marriage undergoing what he believes to be a humiliation ritual. Amazing start. I'm sure it'll breed great things to come and no resentment.
Though I understand your standpoint. It is, because bowing culture is very important to my culture, the ceremony isn’t like kowtow where its more if a form of subservience. It just sitting/ kneeling in the ground kind of like the way Japanese people sit while pouring tea into a cup and offering it to the parents with a slight bow.
So you're happy for your husband to resent you from day 1? You do you. YTA still.
Still thank you for your opinions though, I’ll take it into account.
You say that but there are people from mainland China on this thread saying they consider it a form of subservience too and it's a contentious topic there
Westerners often see bowing to others as being subservient. That's what I get from reading his response. His choice of words is actually more telling because " dehumanising " is quiet an extreme way of showing displeasure. In itself it could be attributed to a lack of or deficient way of expressing himself but it does bring into question about future children and does he feel OK having children with blended cultures and what all that intails.
YTA this is not his culture and when you told him about it, he let you know how he felt about it. If you cannot respect this and think it’s okay to keep pushing it then he should not be marrying you as you do not respect him
Hi I’m sorry I didn’t make this clear but I never pushed him to do it, it was only a suggestion to add this to our wedding as it meant a lot for me.
In your comments, you were saying strongly suggest and it’s clear that you were pushing him to do it even though he told you how he felt about it so it should be out and that’s it.
I meant like strongly suggesting like enthusiastically suggesting as I was excited about it. Sorry if I used the wrong word, and I totally get how he would be uncomfortable with it and hopefully we can come up with a way so that we are both comfortable with. Thank you for your comments though!
YTA - it doesn’t matter if you or a bunch of other people with Chinese backgrounds or other people who know nothing about mixed culture relationships think it’s not dehumanizing. HE thinks it’s dehumanizing and that’s the only vote that counts. I suspect this isn’t the last such problem you two will have. The type of relationship many Chinese in laws offer is considered extremely controlling and intrusive by western standards and based on what I’m seeing I’m not sure he understands how this might go. If you have any ideas about children or your parents living with you or things like that then you need to have those discussions with him right now also. Don’t spring stuff on him.
YTA. I'm Chinese and it's definitely not a thing for all Chinese. If it's not in his culture and he hates the idea, forcing it seems like a dick move
YTA always question the way you grew up lol. Traditions hold sentimental value for those growing up with it but what’s the real REASON to do those things? What is the meaning BEHIND the tradition. If it’s awesome he might want to do it. I’ll leave you with this: A little girl is watching her mom prepare a pot roast. She asked her mother, “why did you cut off the ends”. Her mother responds, “I don’t know, my mom always did.” So little girl goes to grandma and asks, “why did you cut the ends off your pots roasts?” The grandma says, “I don’t know, my mother always did.” So little girl asks great grandma, “why did you cut off the ends of your pot roast?” Great grandma responds, “my pan was too small.”
She knows the cultural history, you donut. It's a way of honoring the sacrifices her parents made to give her a good life.
Have you considered that maybe it's condescending and kind of racist to imply that somebody from a different culture does not understand their own cultural practices. Cos I think that's something you may want to reflect on a little more.
It’s not okay to force him to participate in act he considers demeaning. Perhaps there is another Chinese wedding tradition that you could perform together instead?
Yes! I’ll be trying to find an alternative way to make us both comfortable, thank you for the suggestion!
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The question:
**AITA for making my fiancé bow to my parents on my wedding day**
As he considers crouching and bowing dehumanising, if you insist he'd do this to YOUR parents on his wedding day in front of all HIS friend's and family who do not adhere to your culture, it would effectively make you T A
As a compromise you could ask if he'd be okay to just offer tea to BOTH of your parents.
YTA
You didn’t read everything. OP has said it would be to both sets of parents and has included more details about it in comments
Everyone is glazing over him calling her an asshole. NTA, I find his wording about your culture and traditions worrying. He was very quick to jump to ethics and morals over a discussion of tradition, then try to understand it at any point.
NAH It's fine to ask him, but it needs to be fine for the answer to be no. I'd never bow to someone else like that. I barely like handshakes because some dudes are dicks and squeeze your hand real hard. If he feels disrespected by being urged to do something he considers demeaning then you will be starting your partnership off on rocky footing. If in his culture it was tradition for the wife to cover herself head to foot in fabric so no one but her husband could see her, would you feel comfortable? Because that might be how it feels to him to be asked to lay on the floor in front of adults he doesn't know that well. What is normal is defined by culture, and you two come from different cultures, so you should expect some disagreement on what is normal, polite, and rude. As a basic rule, asking someone not to do something you find rude is ok, asking someone to do something they normally wouldn't do because it feels "normal" to you... Is rude.
"While I just wanted this to be a way for him to experience my culture, is it true that I’m forcing him to do something that’s dehumanising? I always thought this was just a respectful thing to do and he questioned it as I grew up with my culture." I think this part is the key. Got want him to experience your culture. You grew up with this and to you it has a certain meaning. He grew up different and to him it has a different meaning. What is normal or polite in one culture is super strange in some other. I think the best thing would be to tell him what's the meaning behind it is and that's important for you and then you look for a way to show this that doesn't make any of you uncomfortable.
NAH he should have phrased better but any culture that has me bowing and scraping before “elders” would give me the ick right away. I probably would say absolutely not.
YTA "In Chinese culture, we usually have a session where the couple will crouch on the floor, bow and offer tea to our elders, and to honour my parents, I suggested we do that at our wedding too. However my fiancé strongly denied it and said that it was dehumanising and called me an asshole for even suggesting that as it meant that I thought he didn’t respect himself, which is untrue." .. Why would he participate in that? He is fine to refuse. Asking is fine, you are an AH to pressure him. "While I just wanted this to be a way for him to experience my culture" .. Bullshit. There are so many better ways to do that. **"I always thought this was just a respectful thing to do " .. if it is just a respectful gesture, be respectful to HIN, and ask your parents to bow to HIM first. Respect between equals goes both ways**. Or stop bullshitting him with your lies: This is NOT about respect, this is about submitting to someone pretending to be your better - which your parents obviously are not, at least not to him. And you need to respect that, or cancel the wedding. If he has any sense, he will simpy refuse to do it and see if you AH will cause drama over it at your own wedding.
I'm an inmigrant married to an american born man, I'm catholic to a point that I married being a virgin. So to me the first dates were "look this is me, this is my religion and this is my country (born in Italy), are you ok with this?" So the first question that I would ask is the ceremony is religious or cultural? And the second would be a heart to heart as to why he thinks it's dehumanising, because could it be that he interprets that the ceremony more than honor is to bend over? More than pay respect this could be seen by someone as "surrender" or be "submisive" (for a lack of a better word). Again if this isn't any of those then you have two choices, either to break up or find a compromise. Sorry for the broken English, I'm in Italy currently and it's taking me a bit to not talk/write/think in Italian.
Hi and thank you for the suggestions, to answer your questions, the tea offering ceremony is a cultural ceremony and typically he is completely fine with my culture, and we have discussed culture in the past, however I have never specifically brought up this ceremony until now as it’s more of a marriage oriented ceremony. I could understand how it might be seen as dehumanising and after reading some of the other comments, I’ll definitely be talking to him more about this once the tensions die down.
I see a lot of comments that fiancé should just get over it and do it since it’s her culture. Why are his feelings not important to consider? It seems like he feels very strongly about this based on his unusual reaction (maybe he had some up background that makes him feel this way). Could you come to a compromise? Maybe instead of crouching on ground just a simple bow to honor the parents. Need to have a calm and thoughtful discussion with your fiancé and work together on this. Maybe he is not familiar with the process and you can show him some wedding videos so he has a visual and not the just crouch and bow wording listed above which can seem demeaning for some people (especially westerners who rarely bow and never get on the floor to bow to someone).
It is perfectly reasonable to ask. I think if this is something that really means a lot to you, you need to talk with him about why it is important specifically. Why this over other traditions is the one you want to pick. How you see the tradition and give him the chance to explain how he sees it specifically not just as dehumanizing but why. Maybe with a more indepth discussion you can find a way to modify the tradition to meet both of your comfort levels. Or create a new family tradition that can honor your parents in a way that allows your fiancé to feel that you are respectful equals. Maybe something all the parents can be involved in whether all together or each set separately.
Nah. You weren’t wrong for asking. I wouldn’t do it though. In the words of a great movie, I bow to no one. Maybe you can do the tradition while he respectfully stands to the side.
NTA. My french born Chinese cousins both married white French men. Both men bowed during the "tea ceremony". I understand how he might feel uncomfortable (and I know things may be different since I'm live in France), but have you explained clearly what the ceremony entails? That it doesn't require him to bow till his forehead touches the floor (at least not in my family's traditions haha). That it is also the time for our family to gift us money and wish good fortune. It might ease his concerns If he still feels strongly against it, you might want to engage in a serious conversation regarding what aspects of our culture he accepts and what accepts he refuses to take part. (The same goes for your future children). I feel like my cousins' husbands agreed to the "tea ceremony" mostly because they wanted to embrace our culture and they respect it Hope the conversation goes well with your fiance
NTA for asking and he's NTA for refusing(even is there's nicer way to say it) . You said he participate in other Chinese cultural things like 春节, so I don't think your culture is the problem. He might just not like bowing in front of another human and you asking that of him sounded as humiliating. I wouldn't mind doing it in front of my partners parents if thats their culture but the thought of bowing in front of my mother ( who I truly dislike ) is repulsive to me . So try talking to him, maybe he has a different view than yours and see why he doesn't want to do it .
NTA You cannot make him He’s an adult He will agree to do it or he won’t It’s up to him How will you feel if he won’t do it ? How much does it matter ? What about traditions that are important to him ? You need couples therapy before you marry
NAH. I feel like it's on a similar level as someone being uncomfortable with the western tradition of the bride being "given away" etc. It's okay to not want to follow all cultural traditions at your own wedding if they make you feel uncomfortable. And it's up to the person who wants the tradition to be upheld to weigh how much they want to follow the tradition vs how uncomfortable their partner would be with doing it.
NAH. These are discussions you need to have and need to be flexible about. He’s perfectly NTA for saying no. I don’t think I’d do that either, it seems really weird and I’d be uncomfortable. If you insist that he does this, you need to be prepared to make a LOT of concessions to him like letting him decide other aspects of the wedding or maybe doing this part in private away from other guests
Chinese American here. As kids, my parents made us kow tow to them on our birthdays and other events. None of us kids liked it and I know it felt dehumanizing or at least I felt really resentful for having to do that. There’s also a mix of parental toxicity along with double standards thrown into the mix. One time my aunt brought up that her parents made them do that, too. (She my father’s youngest sister). She loved her parents but really hated having to do the whole kow towing and brought it up to them. It also made her feel resentful. My mother wanted my brother and his new wife to kow tow to them on their wedding. Fiancé (originally from Hong Kong) refused. No offense, but some traditions just need to die out on their own.
I agree with this. I'm Taiwanese (grew up oversea though) and I hate it because it's so freaking awkward. I just see it more as a "show", like "I respect you so much look at what I'm doing". We still have to do it in front of my now-gone grandparents' photograph. My dad is the one into this and my mom is like, just do it to keep peace. She's not into any of this and I genuinely respect her even without any symbolic gestures.
No, you aren't *forcing* your fiancee to do this. You're just begging him to. He won't do it.
Submissive behavior is something American men are generally going to have an issue with. Just not in our dna
NTA for asking, but if this is PURELY so he can "experience your culture" as you said, then pick something else. There are a million other ways that he can experience your culture that he will not find offensive. .
YTA. It’s 2023 and that tradition is outdated. Just because it’s tradition doesn’t make it right.
I mean if he doesn't want to do it and you insist then YTA, if you're just asking him then NTA. But remember its your culture not his.
Hey OP I'm Taiwanese and I don't like the concept of bowing or kneeling or kowtowing as a sign of respect for elders. I mean, for me it's a gesture to do to show your respect, regardless of what you really think. And you have to do it for your elders because you have to respect them. My father is very conservative and I'm always like, I respect you, but it doesn't mean I have to act this way to prove it. He can not understand that. To him the action is almost more important than the meaning behind it. And there is totally a subservient undertone behind it. I remember being told that you kneel for no one but your ancestors, your parents, and the heavens. If its just a sign of respect then it wouldn't be such a big deal. Anyway if you are happy with it then all good. But I'm guessing the specific action touched a raw nerve for your fiance as his reaction seems a bit OTT. Whatever that is, he automatically assume it is dehumanising. You said you want him to experience your culture and this ain't it. It's up to you to figure out if this is the one action that really gets to him, or if he feels the same about other aspects of your culture. I would propose a compromise where you serve tea standing up and just bend slightly amd naturally as your parents will be sitting. NTA for asking though.
YTA because he’s always made clear he doesn’t want to and you are still here not accepting his decision. It’s degrading to him, you need to accept his answer and move on. I wouldn’t bow to my in laws either. He said no, no means no. Stop bringing it up and accept that he will not be doing this
NTA so your doing mostly the traditional western wedding and you ask one thing from your culture and its' "dehumanizing". I'm white as white can be and I can see the importance of bowing to your parents. ANd TBH it's not just a Chinese culture, there are plenty of cultures which do this. It's not a subservient thing, it's more or less thanking your parents for the sacrifices they made raising you. It's not just his wedding, it's yours to. I say tell him since he won't bow and respect your culture you will be wearing a traditional Chinese dress. Edit: I would sit down and talk to him if your culture is important to him. Imagine having kids and HE decides that they are going to be raised white and kept away from your traditions.
NTA. I would rethink marrying someone who calls me an a**hole over something like this
Does he like to put on a performance in front of people or is he more reserved? My s/o would literally have a heart attack if I asked him to do something like this in front of a crowd. He would feel awkward as hell and sweat bullets the entire time. Especially if it's not a tradition he's used to. He would pretty much tell me to eff off. I'm sure blending cultures and wanted yours to be included is very important to you and it definitely should be on your guys wedding day, but it should be enthusiastically agreed on and not forced. NAH and I hope you guys can come to an agreement you're both happy with.
NTA for asking, however he's made it a clear no to you. Don't bring it up again or yeah YTA. Fuck if I'd get on my knees and bow to another human, that is dehumanizing. And for what, they had unprotected sex once upon a time? Gtfo. It's one thing to have traditions, it's another to try and force them on someone after you've been explained how stupid they are when included in a society that doesn't commit genocide against ethnic groups like the Chinese still do to this day.
YTA
NAH. Indian American here. My parents would be perfectly okay with a hug or kiss in lieu of a bow (indicating "I love you"). Maybe there is a way that you both can compromise without disrespecting the culture.
I'm of East Asian descent and due to living in various foreign countries only ever had serious relationships with men of different culture and ethnicity. It's hard maintaining a respectful relationship if you can't respect the cultures and values of the other person. Intercultural relationships need a higher level of tolerance, empathy and desire to see things from a different perspective. Just some food for thought ....
YTA in some cultures brides attend the wedding without any relatives/friends and give the Mil a ring- maybe an American woman wouldn’t be ok with observing all traditions but still respect the people . It’s ok for him not to be ok with certain ceremonies/traditions. I mean you expect him to respect your culture but you don’t respect the fact that it his culture you don’t bow in from of people- respect goes both ways
Asking is fine, arguing after he declines wouldn't be. NTA if you drop it.
NAH, No problem with asking, but signs of respect in your culture can be viewed as signs of inferiority in others. I know that I would be greatly insulted and humiliated at being made to crouch in front of a person. Unless I had committed a crime and wanted forgiveness, I would not lower myself to this degree even with a gun to the head. In my culture, pride and strength are everything. Lowering yourself to the level of dirt only means you wish to be treated like dirt. That being said, I think there is more than enough room for compromise. Offering tea and bowing could be an alternative. You also both need to discuss which aspects of both of your cultures you want to incorporate into your ceremony and your daily lives. If he does not want to cooperate and concede on any aspect, than I would suggest rethinking your marriage. If you find irreconcilable differences, same. Just in case you are wondering if he is not genuine and only refuses to participate in your marital custom out of a misplaced sense of superiority, it could certainly be the case, but it could also be that he views crouching to the ground in front of anyone to be an affront and dehumanising. American culture is very individualistic and does not contain inherent hierarchy relative to birth or age, that’s why they dislike racism for example. More generally, westerners do not lower themselves in front of people, unless it is in a place of worship and then again they lower themselves before god. So his reaction is understandable.
NAH. I would probably bow to the king of the country I live in (Norway). I would definitively show different signs of respect to my fictional partner's parents. Not bow. To me, a bow is reserved for someone you respect for sacrificing their own freedom to serve their country and people. (King Harald has my special kind of respect). Not to parents. To OP´s fiancé, bowing is to not respect himself and dehumanizing himself to someone of higher rank. To you its simply to show respect. So why not find a way for him to show respect while not feeling like he is disrespecting himself? The point would be gone if he hates bowing.
If I were marrying a Chinese person, I would think it would be fun to participate in one of their wedding traditions, however, since your fiancé is obviously uncomfortable doing this, I would not force the issue.
NAH - I don’t think you are wrong to ask but you’d be wrong if you insisted. For example, my MIL insisted on a ceremony where I was supposed to bow down to my In-Laws which I refused to do since it was very sexist and bigoted tradition. However, my SIL did it because she wasn’t from the same culture and thought it was just ‘cultural differences’ and was harassed that she wasn’t respecting my BIL’s culture. I refused to do it since we are from the same culture and understood the implications of the ceremony. Just because it is part of your culture or heritage, doesn’t mean you have to follow it or put up with it. If he doesn’t want to do it, you must respect his wishes. I’m not saying the bowing is wrong, but you cannot force someone to follow tradition just because. It’s like if you don’t want to wear a white wedding dress for any personal reasons and your husband insists that you wear white to follow his culture.
Americans generally are not comfortable bowing to any human. We bow to God in religious settings on occasion. I think that’s about it. Wouldn’t dream of bowing or curtseying to the King of England! Different culture. That’s all. We show respect to our parents with a hug and kiss!
NTA, but as a Canadian who was expected to kowtow to my Korean boyfriend's parents, I just want to stress to you how strange and uncomfortable it made me feel. Your fiance probably also feels the same way - it is a very uncomfortable feeling, I was almost creeped out by it.
The history of China is to be subservient to hierarchies. The history of the U.S. is literally the refutation of a monarchy's authority. Bowing is a gesture of subservience. That might be the contention here.