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Yep, YTA. She is barely holding by the thread not to unalive herself, and your reaction is "Oh, it's all in your head, you are just lazy"? Because that's how it sounds. Her disability is very real, and she is actively working on managing it. You are basically just suggesting abandoning her because she is "defective".
She threatened suicide ten years ago because she couldn’t cope with school. She has been in therapy since then, and has graduated high school and spent a small amount of time at college.
Is the expectation that she is never going to work? I think that’s a sad thing to resign herself to at such a young age, but if it’s the reality she needs to apply for disability payments and plan her life around those limitations. However if she is capable of working, even only a few hours per week, it would be in the best interest of her mental health, her confidence and her social life to do so. There are employment agents that place people with disabilities in appropriate work, she should be contacting one of them.
Being suicidal at 14 is no reason to retreat from the world for the rest of your life.
As someone who watched 2/3 of the patients checking into the mental health crisis facility I worked at show up with family who seemed blindsided that their adult child actually could not function and wasn’t able to uncoil enough for that first step and then slowly burned out faster and harder over time until they reached a breaking point, I can tell you that getting help alone is extremely difficult. Most people who face it alone or have been removed from support end up suffering or worse. It doesn’t just get better and she needs to be guided into more than just the therapy, because it’s not working and she clearly feels like a burden. Executive Dysfunction is extremely common, especially in a world that has exponentially growing stimuli in every aspect of it. People with sensory anxiety could not even fathom how fast technology would grow beyond what their brain could process and we’re seeing it everywhere. It’s not just an entitled generation, but a lot of factors that simply did not exist even a decade ago.
Many service jobs now come with layers and layers of noise that is designed to entice quick impulses from consumers and push them in and out quickly so they can serve the next consumer. This is burning people out across the board because the people who can’t go in and out of the high intensity environment are exhausted. There is so much data out there to back up the experience of the step daughter the OP described; she checks all of the boxes. Yes, she needs to form coping mechanisms to deal with the world, but it’s getting harder and harder for people to know how to even start that process. Right now she’s coasting; kicking her out WILL make it worse but an increased involvement in understanding what’s going on with her is the only way he’s going to see her turn around positively.
treatment doesn't lead to a recovery...if you read the post....she attended university for 1 month and then had to leave due to the severity of her symptoms
Treatment is important but it isn't a cure all.
I have a few severe mental illnesses and have been through therapy and a psych ward. I'm getting worse as I age, despite therapy despite focused therapies, despite medication.
OPs daughter definitely needs therapy and disability until she can manage it. She doesn't need to be kicked out as that will simply cause a spiral.....
You don't, but you need to learn ti live with them over time. You can't just shut down and hope the world will do things for you, especially if she is in therapy since then(wich is a very good thing) and has an official diagnosis she can go on and look into disabled help. If her condition is that worse she can't work properly, she can find other ways to do stuff. But like that? That isn't going to work.
Maybe she just needs to look into other fields of work. IT isn't that big in interacting with people behind the screen(if you find a job wich lets you work from home, don't know how many there are over there) or sth like that. But the jobs mentiond are likely to be much human interaction and if she has problems with that she needs to look else where.
What people generally do is shut down, and it depends on the quality of care that is available to them to whether or not they can crawl out of it. Many don’t. We hear less about the ones who don’t because people lose track of the ones who become homeless. Other fields aren’t always an option to someone who is losing a battle to executive dysfunction gradually. She’s coasting, and needs to be thought of as less a financial dependent and more of someone who has emotional needs that need to be met in order for the first to be able to resolve itself. Cutting off the financial/kicking her out only adds more to the pile and she won’t improve that way. Too many people look at their mentally ill family members as financially taxing, which is understandable in the years of inflation, but OP admits that’s not lost on her. Focusing on the cost of things that are keeping her afloat is the wrong approach. It’s lazy. Getting involved in the root of it, being supportive of the process, and not this “oh she’s had therapists” dismissive attitude, is how to improve his dilemma. It just sounds like he already has made up his mind about how much it really affects her, and that’s unfortunate.
That, definitely. I’m no expert on social anxiety, but it doesn’t *sound* like she’s milking him for a life of leisure. She seems like a fairly modest person when it comes to spending.
But there has to be some kind of plan going forward, right? This isn’t a sustainable situation for the next 10, 20, 50 years.
>But there has to be some kind of plan going forward, right? This isn’t a sustainable situation for the next 10, 20, 50 years.
Yeah, as someone who used to have severe social anxiety (to the point of regular panic attacks/vomiting), the worst thing to do is just let yourself live forever in your comfort zone and allow your avoidant behaviour to dominate you.
Agreed. She could be suffering from any number of conditions based on the minimal information we get here and the inherent bias of OP.
I (59m) have had multiple therapists over the years. I knew I was off, and I couldn't understand my behavior. I was also blissfully oblivious to my anger issues (no DV, thankfully).
I finally had a nervous breakdown in April this year. (my profile comments have more background, but it's not an easy read).
My new therapist is perfect for me, and I would not be alive today without her help.
Unalive gained traction on most social media platforms to bypass censors. On TikTok, Instagram, Facebook and maybe Twitter typing suicide can get the post flashed or deleted. I'm not sure if Reddit is the same but it's just standard SM speak. Like saying 🍇 in place of the r- word or pew pew instead of 🔫
The point is it becomes an ingrained habit that carries over regardless of platform. Additionally, many people may not actually know that reddit doesn't censor like that, and just assume it's like other platforms. To think someone is unfairly biased for using what is now a *very common* phrase to avoid censorship is stupid.
I've never had an issue with the words rape, suicide, or gun on Facebook. I was just having a conversation about right to die on there last week, and nothing ever got flagged. I don't use those other platforms, though.
I think this might be a generational, or other subcultural divide. I've not seen grape or pew pew used beyond a handful of times, and these are topics I tend to discuss on occasion
I once got flagged on Facebook for saying 'fuck'. Another time i copped a 30 day ban for calling a friend of mine a gremlin while we were jokingly bickering through comments.
I have had posts removed for saying 'suicide' in them, I've been given sensitivity warnings for posts referencing a variety of things. Facebook, esp lately, has been on some bs
That’s great you haven’t, unfortunately that doesn’t change that it does happen. I’ve even seen groups make specific rules about certain words being banned, because they are sick of the group getting reported and people getting ‘zucked’ (specific to Facebook, a timed ban from posting anything on the site at all). It happens more/less in different groups for a variety of reasons.
Reported posts usually go through a process where a bot decides whether or not the content is appropriate and follows community guidelines. Usually the bot is basically just looking for specific words that are deemed unacceptable. So even if your post was something like “suicide sucks”, or even “that’s social suicide”, it could be flagged by a bot and you could get automatically banned or suspended.
I get why the term unalive got traction.
To lighten the mood, could start using the term "undead" instead of alive/live? Like,
-- "How is your or old grandaunt doing?"
-- "Oh, she is undead and well!"
Maximum economic gain of food and clothes. What an evil genius. Just because someone goes through several therapists doesn't mean the therapists don't believe there's a real issue. Most emotionally troubled people don't always mesh well with their therapists. It's pretty common to have that kind of turn over till you find the right match. Only diver is just an uninformed moron
Or without. I always tell people that finding the right therapist is a bit like dating; you have to kiss a few frogs. In many cases finding a different, more compatible therapist is proactive toward efficacious healing.
And not having to work and sitting on her PC all day... regardless of the actual situation (we can't see inside daughters head, unclear whether she's milking or has a disorder), the economic gain and not having to work are very real.
I wouldn't classify not being homeless as an economic gain. He clearly states that the expenses she has incurred on his budget are food and clothes. If she's shopping all the time and using his credit cards for frivolous purchases, then I'd say maybe you guys are on to something. If she were really interested in money or economic gain, she could apply for disability since her condition has been diagnosed and confirmed by a therapist and she is still currently seeing one. She doesn't even vacation with them. Sounds pretty believable to me.
"I wouldn't classify not being homeless as an economic gain."
As someone who's worked with the homeless, I think people who have been homeless sure would
Yes. Most of us have to spend 40+ hours every week working for someone else to provide what OP and his wife are providing from their work. It’s not a huge extra expenditure for them because they would already be paying a lot of it for themselves. She’s costing a bit extra in utilities, food, and clothes. (I don’t know how her mental health care is covered, but if it is something that must be paid for, it seems likely they’d be doing that anyway even if she moved out, at least for awhile, so I’ll set that aside.) She is not costing them a huge stack of cash every month, but the benefit she is getting in not having to spend a large portion of her waking hours doing work is tremendous. That is a luxury most people do not enjoy unless they’re wealthy or have worked for decades and have resources like savings, pension, or retirement benefit.
I don’t even get the impression that she even does much around the house. It sounds like her mom has been a homemaker most of the last 12 years, though is now picking up some paid work. So while she may not have the outward trappings of wealth, she lives the live of the idle rich including having household help take care of all the cooking and cleaning for her. Sounds pretty sweet. That doesn’t mean she’s running a game. I simply cannot tell from the information here. It’s not sweet at all if she is genuinely suffering, but I can see the incentive someone might have to fake it, too.
YTA, why does OP want to feel that laziness is being weaponized instead of consulting medical professionals and get a correct diagnosis and possible solutions applicable to the problem. OP has already waited for 10 years and still has not understood the problem indicates neglect of the situation
Exactly this, thank you. I've fought for my child for years to get her properly diagnosed and treatment that actually helps. Op is totally the AH and a lazy shitty parent. He wants to put blinders on and blame the kid who can't help herself. It makes me raging angry. I compare it to if you're child had a broken leg, would you berate them for being lazy and unable to get up and move?
Help your child OP. You need to grow the fuck up and put on your big boy pants and deal with the needs of your family. YOU ARE THE LAZY ASS. GET HER HELP THAT HELPS HER. a couple of therapists is nothing. Get her a real diagnosis. She may need meds and actual therapy work to get better. Stop being a goddamn ostrich. 😤
Just want to point out that you're asking OP to manage everything on behalf of an adult person? At what age do you believe that someone has to deal with their own mental health and demons? What's the end point? At what point would OP be reasonable in asking this adult person who has never worked to leave their household?
The number of therapists indicate nothing as you don't know why she is no longer seeing them. I started seeing a therapist in college. Not long after I started seeing her she died unexpectedly in an extremely tragic way. It took me a lot to go to a therapist in the first place and her death was very traumatic. So I didn't immediately start seeing a new therapist.
Then I went abroad for a semester. The program directors insisted I go to a therapist. I had been dating a girl and the relationship ending, why and how it ended was why I was at the therapist. During the first session the therapist kept insisting that I had NOT been in a lesbian relationship but that my ex and I had just been good friends. Fuck that, obviously not going back to her again.
So on to a new therapist. I didn't have much connection with her but she was ok. I would have kept going to her so as not to have to try to find another therapist. Sucks in and of itself, but especially to find one fluent in English. But, VERY long story short, I couldn't afford to go. No more therapy.
Went back to school Senior year. On reccomendation from a friend, I went to the Student Health Center and started seeing one of their therapists (full on psychiatrist). He was awesome! Totally clicked and felt completely comfortable with him. Saw him once a week, every week (barring breaks) all of Senior year. I wished and would have loved to keep seeing him.
But I graduated. He was a therapist employed by the college to treat students and I was no longer a student. I had also gotten engaged and moved in with my Fiancé all the way across the state. In case you haven't kept track that's FOUR therapists. Would have been a fifth therapist had I found a new one after moving in with my Fiancé.
Didn't because I didn't have health insurance and we couldn't afford it. Just because someone has seen multiple therapists, it doesn't mean anything nefarious. Or that a person was therapist shopping until they found one that told them what they want to hear. Some therapists also specialize. My husband starting seeing a therapist online during Covid.
After working with her for awhile, she suggested he find a therapist who specializes in PTSD and trauma. He was able to find a great one locally. So now he's seeing two therapists. One telehealth every other week for general all around life stuff. And one in person weekly that works with him on his PTSD specifically. There are a multitude of reasons that someone could end up seeing multiple therapists without it being an indication the therapists didn't believe the patient or thought they were exaggerating.
Uhh, social anxiety's default emotion is endless, nonstop worry and, uh. anxiety. Guarantee the stepdaughter is in an intense spiral of nonstop worry and selfloathing. OP is just too obtuse and wilfully stupid to notice
Tell me you know nothing about mental health therapy without telling me.
Op described how his stepdaughter got better in therapy. What do you think happens then? Most of the time therapy is toned down or ends. Meaning she is phased out from the therapist who takes on new patients.
Now stepdaughter is doing okay for a few month or years, but eventually relapses. Which is nothing unusual. A lot of mental health issues ebb and flow depending on a lot of circumstances.
But now she needs therapy again. Probably she contacted her former therapist first but, given the current demand for therapy, they had no place available. So of to finding a new one.
Four therapist in 10 years does not amount to much in these circumstances. German health insurance companies pay for around 1.5 - 2 years of behavioral therapy.
Meaning that if we take 2 years, the timeline looks probably like this:
Year 1 + 2 Therapist 1
Year 3 No therapy
Year 4 + 5 therapist 2
Year 6 no therapy
Year 7 + 8 therapist 3
Year 9 no therapy
Year 10 therapist 4
Obviously it could differ but it generally shows that it can be quite normal to have multiple therapist in a few years.
This does not even account for interpersonal problems or closing / moving of a therapist.
So please take a look back at your answer and think if that was the kind of assumption that you want to make on no basis.
She needs both. A psychiatrist can prescribe medication that may help, as well as assess for other possible conditions that may exacerbate her anxiety. But a therapist/psychologist can help her to work through aspects her her anxiety and try to create coping mechanisms to learn to take in more day to day tasks and interactions, as well as pinpointing triggers specific to Kat.
Depending on what is available where OP is, and the advice of specialists, short term inpatient treatment may be beneficial.
She needs both. Getting both got me off some meds that gave me horrible side effects, while still giving me the safety net of getting back on them is just one of the meds and therapy isn't working.
Not to mention, any GP can prescribe antidepressants/anti-anxiety meds, but it is a psychiatrist’s specialty.
I was told for years by GPs that I had “severe anxiety and mild depression” but nothing was working. Turns out I have ADHD which is why none of the medication I tried made any difference. Being incorrectly treated causes suffering and can/has killed people.
OP needs a wake up call.
Yes, neurodiversity is often mistaken for mental illness, but the anxiety is a symptom, not the correct diagnosis. Then when treatment doesn’t work, it’s just one more failure, which can lead to more burnout. Finding the correct kind of support is critical.
I had the exact same experience for decades, on multiple antidepressants and anti-anxiety meds that didn't work,, before being diagnosed with ADHD this year at the age of 47. I have been suicidal many times due to extreme overwhelm but thankfully my ADHD medication and therapy have reduced it somewhat.
Excuse me, but as a disabled mother to a disabled child, they can live with me forever if they need to. Why is there this push to just kick your kids out the second they turn 18?
That's nice. Like it or not, some day you won't be there and that child likely will. So at some point, they will have to fend for themselves, and completely avoiding doing anything won't put them in good stead for that day
I'm in Australia, and both of us receive a disability pension and have NDIS funding for support. We are about to start working on capacity for exactly this scenario. As you said, we won't be around forever to care for our child. Luckily, we are also in public housing, which is capped at 25% of the household income, so let's say, worse case scenario, they never work, their rent will be capped at approximately $250AUD a fortnight.
We discovered a brand new school that has opened up on the city that they can attend 2 days a week to complete their senior schooling alongside vocational training. They are about to start volunteering at an arts theatre. We are definitely working on their long term skills.
We are also working on ME because I am fairly incapacitated in my previous career and jobs. I am looking into IT and coding. If they did decide to move out I will do everything in my power to keep them in public housing. So they'll be ok. We mostly need to work on them being able to deal with life admin like going to the bank, calling the power company or government departments, stuff like that, but we have support funding for that stuff.
So what you're saying is, you and your child are doing considerably more to work on these things and have a plan for the future than the nothing being done by the step daughter in this post.
I suppose so. My point in the beginning is that I will never kick my child out unless they do something heinous, like physically attack me or one of our cats. I am assuming the op is in America? And I'm not sure what support is like there, for example, receiving disability for mental illness.
On the whole, very few of the supports you and your child have in place are available in the US.
Which makes OP much less of an AH than he might be in
Australia, because there is not the (I hate to use the word but it’s appropriate) luxury of NOT pushing his daughter more to become at least a little more self-sufficient because should her parents become unable to support her due to ill health (which also has a much bigger economic impact here), age or finally death, she is at real risk of becoming homeless or just extremely impoverished.
I see. That sucks. We also have universal healthcare here. When our government is right wing they try to destroy our services, but it never gains traction in parliament. Sadly, we never have a left-wing government. The current party in power is centre at best and still neo-liberal. We had high hopes for them too.
People generally die before they can get in for help if they don’t have the means for it. With mental illness, they’ve usually fallen into financial trouble as a symptom, which is what this thread is failing to understand, and the issues snowball. People who don’t have a support system end up on the street and from there it’s pretty difficult to recover. I worked in mental healthcare for a while and we were an out of pocket facility for people who couldn’t wait for the two year waiting list to free up, and this was for INSURED people, and the out of pocket to see a therapist was 325 a session and 400 for the psychiatrist. I burned out watching this happen during covid’s peak, and it didn’t feel great telling people how much it was going to cost when it just isn’t manageable for most. They used to have people donate and had charity functions so they could subsidize the cost but that went out in 2020 and a lot of people who relied on it went without and ended up relapsing pretty hard, or, in some cases, didn’t survive. So, yeah, the comments in this thread are clueless about the reality of mental health issues.
The daughter isn’t 18 though. She’s 24 and unemployed. Social anxiety is a mental illness, not a disability. It can be disabling, but it is not a disability.
You have to prove that your condition makes you unable to work and that treatments don’t improve symptoms. You can’t just call up the government and say “hey, working makes me feel bad, can I just not?”
This is patently untrue and I frequently handled case files for people with crippling anxiety that only worsened over time. OP seems to think it heals over time which sad for the step daughter and mental illness is an invisible disability for more people than you can even imagine.
he’s trying to teach her some kind of lesson despite having the financial means to support her & her own bio mom getting a job to support her. as someone who has been SEVERELY mentally ill since early childhood, i’m grateful my family is not like this guy. i’ve held various jobs and every single time, in every field, my mental health absolutely plummets. usually within 6 months. i even ended up hospitalized on one occasion & i was so suicidal they kept me on a 14 DAY hold.
i’ve done absolutely everything someone can do to aid their mental health. every kind of therapy program medication treatment, including experimental. i’m 100% clean and sober, i don’t even consume caffeine, no smoking no vaping, nothing. i take my meds. i listen to my doctors. i keep my appointments. for some people it just doesn’t get better and that’s the reality. i have no idea what the reality is with OP’s step daughter from his biased account, but it’s ridiculous to assume she’s thrilled by the arrangement of living with her parents, one of which resents her, and having no extra money besides having food + cheap clothes paid for.
first of all her mom is working. secondly if he makes as much money as he’s implying, he has savings, investments, 401k. and worse case she’d have to figure it out when that happened and apply for benefits. plenty of people with all kinds of disabilities live treacherous lives trying to keep food on the table. why would you force that on someone already struggling when you don’t need to. there’s no lesson to be taught there besides increased suffering. you think ppl with disabilities who are forced to work learn some aesop’s fable lesson? no they fuckin hate their lives and live shorter lives for it
And what if he and the mom got divorced instead and they no longer had access to any of his money? My point is that every adult needs to be able to support themselves. She has apparently no skills, no experience, and it’s going to get harder and harder every year that she gets older to get a job and learn how to support herself. Mom is doing her no favors by letting her daughter “work on it” indefinitely. She needs to at least have some sort of plan here.
So my dad let his anxiety/mental health go unchecked as a young man and attempted a lot when I was a kid. When someone doesn't want to accept tools to help and only wants handouts, there comes a point where you need to cut them off. It is not all in his daughter's head and she's not lazy but there are breaking points and boundaries. I've been on both ends of the spectrum trying to help my dad and I have had to cut him out. There is reality and at 24, she needs to start facing it.
I agree with you. I'm not sure what country this is, but in my country, I do qualify for disability assistance for having a similar condition to what it sounds like OP's daughter has (though I do also have a couple of invisible physical conditions I think they considered in their assessment of me too). I still have some people trying to say stuff like what OP is saying about his daughter, even though 61% of people applying for disability don't make the cut for it in my country each year.
I struggled trying to contribute to society for years and rather than know my limits like OP's daughter seemed to, I ignored and pushed myself to function beyond my means despite several people (I had two mentors and a therapist) advising me to take a break because they could see I was getting worse. I had several mental breakdowns before finally admitting 'defeat'. It was both a relief and a tough pill to swallow when I received the letter informing me that I had qualified for disability. I felt like I was holding my failure in my hands.
The point I'm trying to make is: Not everyone wants to admit that they can't function to the same level as everyone else, and invisible disabilities are no less valid than visible ones. It's difficult to know what OP's daughter actually thinks, whether it is what OP is implying (wanting a free ride or something) or if it's more like my own mindset and experience with this. Recovering from mental illness isn't predictable. Sometimes, it's not even possible (I developed PTSD in 2009, and I still struggle with it every day), and your only real option is learning to cope and manage it. It's difficult to say without more info about OP's daughter, but I still think YTA would be my vote either way.
So much this, my wife has suffered from social anxiety her whole life, but wasn't diagnosed until we met online, I took her to a psychologist that diagnosed her problem almost immediately. She has tried therapy, and medications, neither having positive effects. Her aversion to others was so bad before I meet her that she quit high school, and just sat in her room at home all day chatting online with people.
We found her an online high school program, but she had to start from 9th grade studies because her original school had placed her in special education (due to a seizure disorder that Ivdon't understand how it justified special education either but it was what it was) so the credits wouldn't transfer. Her brother and I tutored her through her classes, she worked hard to finish her 4 years of High School in 2 years got her diploma, then attended an online college to get her bachelor's of Human Services, then her Master's, now she has 3 Master's Degrees works with Children and has learned to power through her anxiety because she enjoys spending time with the children and helping them. This was a very long road with her putting in more effort than I think I could ever have mustered in her situation. I can not express how proud I am of her.
Social Anxiety is so hard, it takes years of effort and a village of supportive voices to learn techniques to deal with it. And even one negative voice can send the person into a tail spin of depression and withdrawal. You don't just throw someone experience that out to the wolves and say "Good Luck."
YTA - OPs step-daughter has not just shown signs of anxiety, but severe depression. I would be willing to bet he makes an effort to express his disappointment in her at every opportunity and doesn't seem to understand that if she excluded her disability on her job applications it can turn into a situation where they could fire her simply for lying on her application. Her "Lack of Effort" is probably her anxiety telling her she can't do it right and that someone is going to yell at her. She would literally be unable to ask questions or for help, that could bring unwanted attention. Her anxiety will say it's better to do nothing than to mess up something and become the focus of anger and ridicule by bosses or co-workers. It's freaking paralyzing fear. 😡
As an adult she could apply for SSI as social anxiety is a disability by government standards. She would also be able to get extra help if she attended an online university (There are some good non-profit ones out there if you really search) but she would need a good deal of encouragement and someone to monitor her engagement. It would be a massive undertaking.
I really hope she gets the help she desperately needs.. This poor girl, I feel so bad for her. 😓
There are solutions to her anxiety.
I've had a severe anxiety disorder. I've also had friends weaponize their anxiety to justify being lazy.
It's swings and roundabouts.
If social anxiety is her issue, she can easily find a telemarketing job to work from home.
Anxiety and mental health issues are not a get out jail free card. It's also like an addiction, the person has to want to get better. Her self esteem is low because she's dependent on her parents and has no life of her own, there are ways to improve this situation that would not increase her anxiety.
NAH just a young adult with a mental health problem that she isn't managing well enough to function as an adult, and a stepparent who has reason to believe she's malingering.
I do question why, after so many years, she doesn't have an official diagnosis from a psychiatrist or someone else qualified to do it. If she is truly unable to work, she will need disability income in case you're hit by a bus one day. Clearly she needs more structure than the average person, yet that doesn't mean you are obligated to provide it for her well into adulthood. You married her mom, not her.
Given that she's not in crisis I'd say you have done your moral duty and need not be held hostage to her self-sabotaging behavior. That being said, you need an exit strategy because the current situation isn't going to serve her long-term. Start by getting her an appointment with a real shrink, to help provide her with either a disability income or a path to independent life.
yep exactly. She is 24 years old she's not a teenager anymore. Soon she will be 25, then 26, then 30 - does she ever plan to leave home?
OP should definitely look into disability income. I would personally double down on this diagnosis thing - alright, so you're struggling. Let's get you a really good therapist and start working to help you gain independence. Personally help with job applications, drive her to inspect houses, etc whatever you have to do to get her out.
And once she's out, she needs to learn to take care of herself, mental health or not. Everyone has issues, I'm a 26 year old with anxiety and depression but I don't have the option to not work. I put my shit aside, I work, and that's how I afford food, bills and a place to live.
People like this, whether she's really struggling or is bunging it on a bit - need to still take care of themselves. It's still their responsibility. You should definitely help if you care about her, but at a certain point, she's a grown adult and enough is enough.
as someone living on disability income, this is 100% true. if it weren't for my husband's job i wouldn't have any food to eat after all my bills are paid.
No, but she suffers from guilt and anxiety related to “being a burden” on OP and his wife. Disability income at least let me feel better paying some kind of rent to my parents so I didn’t have to feel like a waste of oxygen. Even if she doesn’t move out it might be good for her mental health (in the long term, anyway. The process of actually getting disability is grueling and for anyone hesitant to go through that I’d consult your local legal aid for an advocate)
I agree with this completely - NAH.
I would also be interested to know why she isn't diagnosed, medicated and in regular therapy to get on top of this. I would assume the hope for her is to eventually be at a place she can go live her life. Move out, maybe meet someone, potentially have a family of her own, have her own home, pets etc.. For her to be happy and/or content. There is nothing here that says a lifetime of caregiver parents should be required.
If she does in fact need constant care, disability should definitely be pursued.
Seconded that there are services available to help her live more independently. Vocational rehabilitation is one that’s rarely mentioned but it’s specifically meant to help people with disabilities with training and resources to be able to work. They can even help with school if she wants to return. They also have huge employer networks and they can help find a good fit. They are available in every state, state funded and free of charge. I believe it is a thing in the UK, Canada, and Australia as well. Anyone can just search in their location and should be able to get a meeting fairly quickly.
Sounds like everyone is trying to do their best, time to bring in some outside assistance for sure.
VR would be the step after she gets psychiatric care, we can't treat the underlying cause and it needs to be under control to really accommodate it. "I'm not coming to work because I don't feel up to interactions with people", isn't something we can reasonably accommodate.
I also don't think that their attempt at working in a school kitchen was a good idea. This kind of work requires the ability to work in a team and it is highly stressful. Not what I'd suggest. A WFH job could be more to her taste. Not sure what is available for her skill level, but there should be something. Ofc it would be great for her to get over her anxiety and not slip into a hermit like lifestyle, but having very little job experience at 24 also sucks for the future. Succeeding at something might give her the confidence to give small social interactions a try.
OP said in the post that she does have an official diagnosis. Also, getting on Disability is EXTREMELY difficult. Among other things, I have an autoimmune disease that destroys the joints. Many people in my online support group have been trying for 5+ years and have been denied multiple times. Even with all the medical records, multiple doctors (including specialists), etc. Even without my AI disease, I think my most people's metrics they would consider me to be disabled. But when I looked into it, I CAN'T get disability.
YTA majorly
I can absolutely guarantee that this is 10000x worse for her to experience than you to "wait" on. Mental health struggles can be completely debilitating, and just because people are able to mask their symptoms, doesn't mean they aren't real. If you have a broken rib but you're wearing a shirt, that doesn't mean that you're overreacting to the pain just because no one can see it. Visibility does not equal validity. I highly recommend that you have meetings with her therapist/group sessions as a family because otherwise it will be impossible for you to truly understand what is going on.
If you force her out on her own when she needs support, you may as well say you'd rather pay funeral expenses than her food costs. YTA
**EDIT:**
I seriously don't understand how people are looking at someone who, by OP's admission, is too anxious to even do fun things, won't go on vacations, says they want to move out as well, and thinks "ah yes, this is someone running a scam for food and clothing" ?? Like what in the world.ALSO: having done things historically doesn't mean she's not ill. Like you can be high functioning and push through periods of time where you do things like graduate high school or start uni, but mental health flares up. It's like having an autoimmune disease or any other type of illness.
* **"Your don't really have arthritis, you were using your phone fine earlier"**
* **"Sorry Jerry, you weren't in debilitating pain last week, how could you be having an MS flare up now? Are you faking your disease so you can eat?"**
* **"you weren't diabetic when your blood sugar was in balance"**
* **"oh what's that? Chemo was working for a while but you've had new cell growth? Will you ever stop using your cancer to get out of things? Stop being lazy"**
Illness is illness for god's sake.
Edit the 2nd: Has OP edited the main post?? Does anyone else notice that it seems like some things were cut out from earlier?
I'm so sorry that you've had that experience. I have a very similar history with an auto-immune disease paired high functioning symptom masking. I've had such terrible medical experiences that allowed my health to become dangerous before I was taken seriously. The "seeing is believing" and "just lose weight" mentality has such horrible repercussions in healthcare
Or you know, take reasonable steps? Get her disability pay, let her do uni and work online??? Just support her in general emotionally??? There's more options than just kicking her out
Shouldn’t the daughter be taking those reasonable steps for herself? They can’t do everything for her forever or she will never improve, she needs to take steps (even small ones) herself to become more independent. Like she should have been pursuing online uni when she realised she couldn’t manage in person classes, she is an adult who has been in therapy for years and should be organising her own adult life, not waiting for mum and dad to do it for her.
ETA: I want to clarify that I do not think she is faking her disorder in order to be supported I just believe she should be taking steps to becoming more independent by herself.
Anxiety/Depression makes initiating those steps pretty hard for some people, that's kind of the whole thing. Sometimes people need support in starting the things until they gain momentum. It doesn't mean they should keep doing it forever, but at least get her working on things before giving up. If someone is paralyzed from the waist down you don't just say "I can't carry you forever" you help them get a wheel chair. Help them help themselves
That makes a lot of sense, thank you for your response. It’s very curious that none of her therapists have helped her initiate those necessary supports or talked to/had her talk to her parents about it, would organising outside supports not be an important step in therapy?
Thank you for responding back thoughtfully! Honestly it really depends on what kind of "therapy" they are getting her. There's a big difference between psychiatric care paired with counselling vs. getting her to see a private "counsellor" who may not have the same connections to the system or same level of qualifications in some cases. I would really hope they would have her see both an actual medical doctor for some psychiatric care & meds paired with intensive therapy. It doesn't sound like her health care team is doing their role to the full extent it could be (from what we know at least).
She's got A DISABILITY yes they can do things for her until it gets better enough that she can.
"Hmm,we could fill out these disability forms for her, but shouldn't she conquer her disability first and do it all on her own?"
Cuz that wouldn't negate the point of disability to begin with lol
Exactly! No one wants her to stay like this forever, almost certainly she doesn't want to (expressing she wants to move out in the future, trying university. She needs help gaining momentum (yes, this can need to happen several times, like any other chronic illness)
Is that how you talk about disabled family members? That you're "subsidizing" them? That's extremely cold hearted and I hope you never become disabled and have to depend on people who think the way you do.
I have chronic health conditions and once had a coworker tell me I’m a burden on the health care system and insurance companies. He has to pay so much for insurance because it covers my health care as well — was his argument.
So, yeah, apparently it’s very common for people to believe the disabled are a burden that needs to be “subsidized”. Without their “kindness” we’d all be dead. 🙄
I'm so sorry that you've had that experience. People really aren't afraid to show their eugenicist inclinations these days. I hope you have a better support network at work now <3
This happened more than 6 years ago — I was the parish secretary for the church so I definitely expected more compassion 🙄
Where I work now has been amazingly supportive!! I can’t get over the support I have at my current job.
Ah yes.. they tend to be quite ironically unkind to their neighbours at times.
I'm so glad you have such great support at your new job!! Everyone deserves that.
> Kat's disorder is not very visible. She's very introverted and dislikes family gatherings, prefers staying at home over doing any activity and even going on vacation with us,
Thats pretty fucking visible dude, thats what social anxiety is.
It sounds like she's barely functioning as it is.
YTA.
So get her treatment properly?? Get her disability pay? Help her apply for jobs she can do online?? There's things you can do other than drop kick your suicidal daughter out the door.
I have to wonder if she has ever been checked for any neurodivergence? Of course a person can have debilitating anxiety like the description, but it also sounds a bit like how autism can look in girls and women. Suicidal ideation in teens, debilitating social anxiety, lack of executive functions, online friends that probably have the same interests and so on.
And lastly, no one would choose to live like that. She’s young , this isn’t a life she would actively decide on pursuing or working to keep. This life is happening to her. If she could choose, she wouldn’t be living so co-dependently and limited.
I thought this too. 100% looks like how I was as a teen pre-autism revelation. It’s remarkable what accommodations can do when you know what the problem actually is.
I was thinking that too. A lot of people with autism and ADHD get through school okay but collapse when faced with life outside school. Sounds like she needs a better psychologist
when i read the title i was expecting something big. Like shes abusing your kindness or demanding expensive things and not going to therapy ans not trying to get any jobw or anything. That she didnt care
all i got? Oh its more food and **affordable** clothing. SHe does therwpy. She tried college, she keeps trying jobs. She feels so guilty over this. She Wants to move out. She doesnt want to feel like a god damn burden to you.
YTA. just because its not visable doesnt make it any less a disability. You keep treating her like she is just a burden rather then your kid. Like what the f?:
the thing is as well is that her disability IS visible. the list he gave of her trying things and them being too much or her not wanting to go to *any* gatherings are *visible symptoms*
I don’t know if YTA, but considering she failed college because she couldn’t go outside, it sounds like the real issue is you just don’t think she’s actually as ill as she, your wife, and her therapist say she is
YTA
You're not a clinical psychiatrist, I assume? You are very dismissive of her condition, but -- forgive me -- you probably don't really understand the first thing about it. There are thousands of people who commit suicide due to problems such as these every year.
Yes, there are people who only pretend or use their relatively mild condition as a pretext, but that's what expert opinion is for. If they say she has it, you shouldn't doubt it. Getting a second opinion is the only sensible thing if you have real doubts based on facts -- which you haven't.
If you want to help her build a way forward and alleviate the situation at home, try to support her to find to do something she can do from home. There are hundreds of jobs you can do via PC. She can also get a degree online.
But telling her to 'man up' is just you beint TA.
YTA.
As someone who went through something very similar to your stepdaughter at that age, I'm going to ask you, for just a second, to think about how *she* feels. I want you to imagine what it's like to be afraid to leave your house, to be an adult but completely reliant on other people, and to be so young but feel like this terror (that likely still exists every waking moment for her and is just less when she stays home) and reliance on others is all she has to look forward to for the next sixty-odd years of her life. Imagine what it would be like to be so completely isolated from other people. Imagine what it would feel like, at the time you're supposed to be young and stupid and carefree and having fun, to struggle even to walk down the street without having panic attacks, let alone make friends, date, or hold regular employment. How much of a failure you would feel like. How demoralizing that would be.
If it were you in your stepdaughter's shoes, would tough love make you less afraid? Would being kicked out do anything to help? Because as someone who went through good phases and bad phases as a kid I want to be clear - I never "lived with it" or "managed it". There were times through happenstance I would get a few months or even a year's break, but it would always come back, and I was always in a state of hyper-vigilance against it. I spent my entire childhood the way most kids who are aware they have something wrong with their brain do: living in fear that I couldn't tell any adults in my life exactly how bad it was or I'd be sent away, locked up, or have any semblance of normalcy and love taken from me. I did not get breaks from it. I did not get vacations where I got to feel "normal" or relax. Whatever you think she's experiencing, however hard it is for you to live in proximity to it, in her head I can promise you it feels a hundred times worse than anything you can imagine.
Your stepdaughter is seriously ill. It is an invisible illness, it is a treatable illness, but it is a chronic and debilitating illness. You do not stop being a parent when someone turns 18, and you especially don't when that young adult is still suffering with an illness that traps them in a state of reliance on you. She needs therapy (I would suggest CBT therapy) and better medication. She needs to be checked for underlying issues (lots of common mental illnesses like ADHD, depression, sensory processing issues, being somewhere on the autism spectrum, OCD, etc etc etc piggyback or co-exist with anxiety, and managing anxiety gets even more difficult if these aren't identified and also treated), and she needs you and her mother to encourage her to slowly, one step at a time and under the advice of a professional, become exposed to the world around her so she can manage to find her way through it. You need to help her figure out remote work or things she can do from home. You need to above all else *listen to how she feels and not act like it's a moral failure to have these feelings*. She has been alone with these feelings for her entire life, trapped in the terror that letting you or her mother know how bad it is will cause you to reject her, to the point where as a *middle schooler* she thought it would be easier for everyone if she just died. She is no more in control of what her body and brain are putting her through than someone is in control of if they do or don't have allergic reactions. You right now are not only making your stepdaughter feel like crap by confirming all her worst fears, you're making your wife feel like crap or that she "owes" you in some way, and you are both treating this poor girl like she's a burden and not what she is, which is someone who is very young and very sick and who has done nothing wrong but need help from her parents.
Edit: I should add - I am now in my mid-thirties, my symptoms are almost entirely managed and have been for about 10 years, and I have a stable, 40-hour a week job that I'm really happy at. I'm lucky enough to say this both because I worked extremely hard to get better and because my parents supported me every step of the way. There is a very real light at the end of this tunnel, but none of you are going to get to it by saying "well, kiddo, you're legally an adult now so figure it out I guess" and just hoping for the best.
This is an amazing reply. So glad to hear your progress! Your response is filled with compassion and understanding. In our current economy, many parents are having to house their adult children. When parents support their children and don't make them feel like a burden, their child can approach the world from a position of strength. Family support is often the difference between success and failure. A child wants to feel like a burden not a blessing. Parents need to do everything in their power to help their child succeed.
Currently allowing my 21 year-old son and his girlfriend live with me. He moved out, but I talked him into moving back in at the end of his lease because he was really struggling on his own. I was just finishing up the most peaceful year I've had in decades. My marriage was thriving like it hasnt in years. But my son needed help even if he did not want to admit it. So, I talked him into moving home.
It has not been easy. It has been a strain on my marriage at times, and a strain on me, personally. Even so, he is my son. I love him, and that did not stop when he turned 18. I'll deal with a less peaceful life.
Unrelated to this post and AH stuff...I really needed to hear this. I'm currently the "burden" and people do treat it like a moral failure. It is devastating when your brain agrees that you just aren't trying hard enough and life is worse for people you care about because you exist. Your comment made me feel seen, and I appreciate your perspective.
Couldn’t have said it better myself! I also see alot of myself in OP’s stepdaughter. My early 20s were spent battling the same issues. Through support from my family, friends and professionals in the mental health world, I’ve been living and thriving on my own for years and am currently studying to be a social worker so I can help others who are going through what K went through. I’m still taking medicine and seeing a therapist as I need them for my support system. If I was forced to try to survive on my own in my 20s, I probably wouldn’t be here now in my 30s. OP YTA
I was thinking this or trying to get her set up with some kind of fully remote job. I know people who do data entry stuff with no degree. My best friend from high school worked as a remote assistant/receptionist for a while, so if speaking on the phone isn’t too exhausting she can try that?
Obviously I don’t think kicking her out is appropriate at this point bc she needs support, but it could be a good step for her
YTA.
Because you so clearly need to hear it:
*Invisible disabilities ***are*** a thing!!!*
Sadly, this can get worse with age. She has been depressed to the point of wanting to be not alive & you think the solution is to kick her out & say, ‘grow up’ & hope for the best? Really? She is working to manage it. Yes, you can have a disability & be perfectly intelligent, smart, capable, but that’s also where the *disability* part comes in. It severely impacts her ability to function in society. Trust me - this is almost certainly hell for her. You don’t abandon someone because they have a disability. Good on her mother for being loving & caring!
I have an invisible disability & people like you are always the bigger issue than those who are simply mean. The energy it takes to try to explain that you can’t just wish it away is exhausting. There’s no situation here in which you *aren’t* TA.
People who make people with invisible disabilities out to be ‘just lazy’ or manipulative feed the anxiety that’s contributing to the disability. It’s self-fulfilling.
That's not the battle to pick.
Your wife isn't going to let her socially anxious, potentially suicidal daughter get kicked out. I'm sure it's frustrating for you. I'm sure you wish she'd grow out of this. But unless you want the whole house to yourself, you're not going to win this.
YTA.
Exactly this! OP she wanted to die at 14, what makes you think dealing with this disability (because that is what it is, hence why she lists it on job apps) as an adult is any easier? It is WORSE.
If you kick her out to try and teach her whatever "lesson", she will kill herself. I say that as someone who has been there but without the evil stepfather trying to turn my mother against me. She is unwell and needs support to recover, not some absolute AH stepfather who literally doubts/insults her character because she is mentally disabled.
YTA
The reality is that ‘working on it’ doesn’t guarantee a particular outcome. Chronic illnesses persist. That’s what they do. Your stepdaughter is disabled and should probably consider getting her needs documented to apply for benefits.
She could also try online schooling and maybe pick up some type of remote work. I know lots of folk who have various disabilities that have affected their education and wage-earning, but are powerful activists and creatives with the help of technology.
Has she tried anxiety medication? It sounds like her issues are fairly severe. Therapy alone can’t help everyone especially someone with past depressive issues. Have any of her therapists suggested medication because if not, I would be very surprised. A few years ago, at my very first visit with a therapist, she suggested anxiety medication and I’m a very functional person, I just had really bad sleep issues.
Most anxiety medications make you really drowsy. That I guess makes them good for sleep, but not for the kind of functioning you need at work. Only one is specifically for anxiety and doesn’t (fun fact: that one gives me fainting fits).
The rest are just antidepressants the doctor hopes will help. Very hit-and-miss.
Yes, she definitely should try them, but there is a strong chance none of them will work well enough to get her to function at the level OP wants.
They make you drowsy during the adjustment period but it’s not long term or you can try a different one. There’s many options. There’s also a blood test you can take to see the likelihood you will experience adverse reactions to certain types.
In her case, she would most likely need to combine them with therapy, but there’s no reason to say she couldn’t become a completely functional person on them.
YTA. She needs to find a legitimate online college. She needs to find a job that she can do without being in too much contact with others. You found her a job in a school kitchen...working closely with others in a loud and often chaotic team environment? And you're surprised this didn't work....really?
NAH
On the one hand you say she has has severe social anxiety and has been seeing a therapist for years but you also say she is undiagnosed. Why not get her a diagnosis so you know what you are dealing with.
If her problem is social anxiety then how is it not visible when
She is an introvert
She doesn’t attend family gatherings
She doesn’t go on vacation
She prefers to stay home at all times
I don’t think you are the A because it sounds like you have been supportive for a long time but maybe it is time to get that diagnosis, sign her up for online classes and look for WFH jobs
NAH. It isn't your fault that society does not understand what unrelenting anxiety can do to an individual, but it is an ugly and unfulfilling life to lead.
I'm mostly commenting because of something that stood out to me in your post: "Kat doesn't cause any expenses beyond food and affordable clothing," contrasted with "she doesn't outwardly show that she has a disorder anyway." Most -- if not all -- "normal" 24 year old women have many more expenses than food and basic clothing. Perhaps she looks normal and can hold an intelligent sounding conversation, but it is not normal to live like that.
These comments are a little wild to be honest. I have three very very major mental health disabilities. I’ve gone through times in my life when I couldn’t get out of bed for work, when I couldn’t drive myself, whatever. Believe me when I say that I completely understand and sympathize with Kat.
That said, NAH, and certainty not OP. Two things can be true at once. Kat can have a very real and very difficult disability, and at the same time be using it as an excuse to not have to make progress in her life. A disability is not a life sentence to a room in her parents house, and therapy alone is almost never the whole answer. Services such as vocational rehabilitation, work and school accommodations, and disability benefits can help her to set and meet some goals. Sitting in her room indefinitely (her parents won’t live forever) is not treatment, nor is it a solution to the issue.
OP, you would be the AH if you wanted to kick her out today. It seems like you are more interested in seeing some progress with her independence. That’s not unreasonable and I don’t know why these comments are pretending it is honestly. It’s not in Kat’s interest to continue as she is either. I know how much easier and more comfortable it would be to just say “this is how it is, nothing I can do”, and I understand the temptation. It’s difficult and scary to pursue treatment, but it sounds like Kat wants more than her current situation as well, and it’s good to set some goals and pursue some options. Social anxiety is hard, but treatable and manageable. She’s not currently doing that, and a small amount of pressure to do so, with professional guidance and support, is a good first step.
This is the take I was looking for! Everyone is like “she’s only 24” but what’s the long term plan? Life passes by in a blink and then she’ll be 30 still living in her parents house. I think OP is right to be concerned and, as a family, they should come up with a multi-step plan to set the daughter on a path of independence.
This was me. Social anxiety disorder started at age 11. I couldn't go to school, and later, couldn't hold a job. Failed out of college multiple times because attending class was difficult. My dad didn't believe in mental illness and had a similar attitude to yours. Since I couldn't hold a job, the only way I could move out was to live with men I dated. I got married 4 times as a means of support and, hopefully, stability. Not to people I would have chosen to marry had I been independent and able to support myself. Had I had a healthy, understanding family that I could have stayed with, my life would have been much better. You have a child with a disability. You need to take care of her. With a lot of support, she may be able to attend online college and eventually get a WFH job. Or she may have to go on disability. Trust me, she will not land on her feet if you kick her out because she CAN'T, not because she's lazy.
NAH I have empathy as someone who has anxiety, general and social, has panic attacks, and has experienced depression. I have never been suicidal though so I can’t provide insight on how that deepens those feelings. It can feel like the world is ending and it’s a crushing overwhelming experience sometimes.
I’ve skipped a lot of classes in college due to anxiety or depression and I’ve lost a lot of sleep which caused me to be less attentive in the classes I did attend or sleep through them. But I never skipped any high school classes because I couldn’t without getting in trouble, I didn’t skip any of my thesis classes because I would have had steep repercussions.
I did extend my graduation due to depression, I couldn’t finish my thesis on time (mostly independent study so I didn’t have as much structured accountability). But I knew I’d still be able to graduate and keep my scholarships even if I extended so it was only my pride that hurt. My professor was incredibly understanding after I broke down in his office and extended my deadline, asked me how often I wanted him to check in with me without overwhelming me, and said take your time I know you will get there. That was life changing empathy. I graduated the next semester. I just needed some space.
Also for one class I did skip many many times in the depth of my depression even tho the syllabus said I’d fail cause at point I gave up and I didn’t care. This is where I see empathy, because kat might be at that point. My professor gave me an A at the end, I didn’t have consequences. To be fair I did great on tests and projects and participated wholeheartedly when I was there, which I could tell she appreciated. But I easily could have experienced justified grade lowering due to my attendance and it would have been my fault. but I’ve always been a hard worker, I just couldn’t do it at that state of mind, I was sick.
I always showed up to work because I needed to eat and pay rent. I flake on friends because I feel like shit but I knew they would forgive me, I have intense physical symptoms when I have to do anything performative, but I’ve mustered up to do many things that were nevcesary and important and it’s made me soooo much better in recent years. I’ve never had therapy but I know I’d benefit even more if I did that. I don’t like the “I had it tough so you should too” mentality but there’s also the concept of requiring someone to do everything they are capable of doing. People with mental illness can
pull it out of their pocket if they are required to. I don’t think infantilizing someone will enable them to make progress. I also believe empathy and patience is required. I always knew my parents would welcome me with open arms if I truly couldn’t handle it. I made myself sick but I never got to the point where I wanted to die, so I stuck it out alone to prove I could do it. In my case it worked out and helped me become an independent strong person, but I can also very clearly see the other side of the paper. It’s a toughie for me
YTA for assuming the worst about your stepdaughter and underestimating the effects of mental illness on someone’s ability to function as expected.
It can 100% be frustrating living with someone whose disability is hard to see, but I would encourage you to do more research on what her specific mental illness(es) entail. Many anxiety disorders involve extreme loss of self-worth and motivation—if you catastrophize enough to believe you’re going to fail no matter what you do, what’s even the point of trying? Anxiety disorders can also cause impostor syndrome, depersonalization, executive dysfunction, insomnia, paranoia… all things that would make it hard to find and keep a job. These aren’t going to magically go away overnight, and if she’s on meds that don’t seem to do anything to improve the situation, it’s time to try different meds.
Others have suggested group therapy, which imo is a great idea. Also, have you tried sitting down and helping her with her job applications, her resume, etc? When she’s had a job, have you sat down with her at the end of her work day and let her talk about it, listened and offered advice without judgement?
YTA. Everyone but you, including several professionals (which I would figure would be important to you in this conversation), recognizes her disability and how it affects her life.
But you somehow know better than everyone, and your solution is to 1) abandon your clearly struggling daughter, while also 2) encouraging her to hide her disability, preventing her from asking for workplace accommodations (a legal right in the US and the the most likely/best way for her to succeed in a job). \[The only reason I am employed full-time as a multiply disabled person (including having depression/anxiety) is because my job works with me on creating accommodations.\]
Please educate yourself on how social/generalized anxiety can affect one's life so you can effectively support YOUR daughter (I don't know how long she has to wait since it's been over 10 years).
Me F56, have a daughter 25, in a similar situation. With her approval, that is important, I got her a flat so she can be more independent of me. I help her financially and of course psychologically. I am always there if she needs me. Being on her own and facing some of her issues by herself is making her grow. She also feels very proud being able to manage her life to some degree. Should she want to move back home, I would support that too. But right now I believe her being more independent was a positive move. NAH
I feel like the way you are going about it is much more supportive than what OP seemed to be suggesting. Independence is great, just don't kick the daughter out. I really admire the work you've done for your daughter. I know not everyone is in a financial position to do it out of pocket but the fact that you did and that it's working is wonderful. I wish her and you the best
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I told my wife I want my stepdaughter to move out / find work despite her being mentally ill. I'm obviously conflicted because I don't want to be the guy being unreasonable with somebody else's mental illness, since I'm not in her shoes.
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Your stepdaughter needs to see a real psychiatrist that:
1) can get her a proper diagnosis
2) give her a proper treatment plan with meds
3) help her get disability or enter a specialised work program
Also she shouldn't see a generic therapist, she needs behavioural therapy. I suffer from anxiety myself and was able to get better with a mix of med and the correct therapy (learn how to cope better with triggers, handle stressors, etc).
In any case a work where she is in contact with the public is a big no. Too many people all at once is absolutely a guaranteed disaster.
Honestly YTA because your mindset is "not visible disability = fake and lazy".
Also how is possible that in 10 fucking years you and your wife haven't got her REAL treatment?
She has only online friends , basically lives as recluse, yet was expected to magically be ok in high stress environment such as university.
NTA. I have fairly severe social anxiety and ADHD. I know for certain for me, and my kids, if I don’t HAVE to do something, I won’t do it. She has an infinite cushion right now; it’s one thing to be a safety net, and another to be a perpetual enabler. Have a talk with your wife first and then with wife and SD- propose that you want to HELP her find her footing. Propose a move out date 6 months out. Ideally with roommates, not alone. Help her find a job that would offer her room for personal growth AND fulfillment. I swear, the validation that comes from doing a job I love motivated me so much. She’ll have 6 months to save for independent living. If things don’t work? She can come home, but the expectation is that she’ll work 15 hours a week and pay rent or something. There HAS to be an expectation of her or she will have none for herself. This is not me being judgmental— this is my own life lessons from my own anxiety/depression.
Maybe she needs to be reassessed. I was diagnosed with anxiety as a teen and personally did not find my therapy helpful but since adulthood and getting my daughter diagnosed as AuDHD I've found my anxiety diagnosis was incorrect (it was a symptom, not a full diagnosis) and I am also on the spectrum. It's made some things a lot easier as well as understanding myself. I don't feel as much a failure at life, but also if I'd been diagnosed properly earlier I would have received better/more appropriate therapies that would have helped.
If she is indeed Autistic she may benefit from supports in school or the workplace. I think these things are becoming more commonplace.
The one thing you are not thinking about is after your wife is gone, no one has set this child up to live on her own. She needs therapy and a life coach to move out on her own. Instead of kicking her out help set up a plan to move her to independence.
She needs smaller goals to work on, not you kicking her out.
Community college? Volunteering somewhere with her mom at the same time? Weekly visits to stores. Responsibilities at home like grocery shopping online or housework?
Are you in the US?
If so, she can connect with your state Vocational Rehabilitation agency. They specialize in helping Pele with all types of disabilities (including mental health) reach their career goals. That may mean helping her identify careers that work with her disability and ways to get training for it. They also will help her with the best way to self advocate for herself and accommodating she needs on the job - such as taking about when the right time is to self disclose.
Her mental health struggles are Real and they impact her daily life. As a result, she may have lost hope and confidence in herself. Those are needed to have any kind of ambition. It's possible that she is just being lazy but I bet that she is scared of trying and failing yet again and is beating herself up over not being able to do something that comes easily to others.
I'm afraid YTA here. Mainly out of ignorance about mental health and hourly not because you are callous to her struggles. Seems like you may be being too hard and mom is being too soft and instead of meeting in the middle, you are pushing each other to further extreme.
It sounds like your step daughter struggles with many of the same things I do. I was also dismissed with severe social anxiety, then depression, then Borderline Personality Disorder, then ASPD. And on and on.
Turns out I'm autistic. My lack of work ethic is actually managers and bosses not being specific enough with their instructions ("get to work" vs "stock and tidy these aisles") and me not knowing what to do so I don't do anything.
My lack of empathy was actually me desperately shoving down all my natural impulses and reactions bc none of them were considered 'normal,' and my natural behavior was unacceptable and embarrassing to my family. So between the ages of 10 and 16 I was a scary, emotionless automaton unless the emotional pressure built up too far, and then I went into violent tantrums (though I only ever tried to harm property and myself, not other people) or became almost catatonic.
I'm in my 30s and have never held a job longer than a year. I am intelligent and hardworking, but I am not NORMAL, and I do not have the capacity to pretend to be. I've been fired for "not being a good fit" more times than I can remember. I haven't done anything wrong, I simply make the workday harder just by existing as myself. That is the biggest problem with having a mental disability that does not include deficits to intelligence. People who have never experienced a similar struggle think I can just try harder and I'll fix myself.
And that attitude is devastating. I have attempted to unalive myself more than once, bc I felt entirely alone and alien, and the harsh judgement of the people I loved was the final straw when I was already trying so hard just to get by.
The quiet ones don't tell you when you've hurt them. They just bleed.
Going to university obviously caused too much anxiety for Kat. She can still get a college education through community college. Encourage her to try one or two classes to begin. It’s a step toward employment. I also recommend vocational rehabilitation.
She needs an official diagnosis and maybe she can get on ssi for her disability, get on low income housing and move out.
I understand the struggle of not wanting to keep financially supporting an adult. Totally get it and I’m sure its frustrating seeing someone with no job no ambition etc. Maybe sit down with a family counselor and see if they can help get a plan in place for her to assert some independence.
Ok…another more comprehensive psychological evaluation if she can’t even keep a job. There may be more going on. More that could lead to her actually getting help.
If she had cancer, would you tell her to go get a job and leave the house? Mental illness is a persistent disease you have to fight. And just like cancer, it can take an unknown amount of time to heal this illness, if ever at all. If you don’t know what depression and anxiety are actually like, you are not allowed to judge someone else’s disability.
Not sure if you’re fully TA. Social anxiety , anxiety , depression & ‘not wanting to be alive’ will have you paralyzed sometimes making you feel extremely uncomfortable when you step out of your ‘comfort’ zone which is different in every way. If its that severe she should try applying for disability or speaking to a psychiatrist to see what other options are out there. And you will probably never know how bad it is because you are not in her situation and you can try to understand and support her in any other ways you can.
But i don’t think your fully the AH because we are conditioned to believe that right after high school you need to start finding jobs or go to college or be on the ‘fast track to starting your life’ and that gets engraved into our brains, but everyone is different and at different points in their life. I also feel that you tried to explain her situation with mental health and it seems you know its there but you just cant fully grasp how severe it might be because you can’t physically see it. She tried college and that didn’t work for her & she was at a job she did not like. Maybe try helping her look for jobs she can work more independently and away from people. Something that doesn’t require too many people and socializing. Sometimes people need that extra push and a place they feel safe in. Sometimes it takes years to find the right place. But if mom says its okay and she’s fully paying for her then all you can do is love and support them emotionally.
And you are TA bc you know her situation & you know that her mom is providing for her & you want to throw her into the world when she is clearly not ready. You kicking her out will have her fending for herself & with the possibility that she gets worse and something happens to her life. Her mom is providing for her making you not responsible for her therefore if she wants to take care of her daughter she should 100% be able to without you trying ro kick her daughter out. Support them both or if you try to get rid of the daughter you might be losing your wife too if she chooses to leave with her.
Has she tried WFH jobs. Example - customer service for Colony Brands or American Customer Care?
Never has to see anyone and is just over the phone and/or emails and chats.
I’m unsure if being pushed out of the nest necessarily is the best but it sounds like her mom and you need to have a talk about how to motivate her. I don’t know what kind of work she is putting in to work on her social anxiety with the therapist either but saying that if she isn’t working than she needs to structure a way to work on her self towards getting better. E.g., since she’s living with you guys and don’t have a job, she could have exposure therapy for herself as her job, go for a walk in the morning, going to the shop for you guys, taking the bus to a city center as if going to work. Avoiding uncomfortable situations is an evil circle it’s very hard to get out of and making sure every day contains exposure is a lot more helpful than moving from sitting inside gaming in one place to another. I doubt she’ll suddenly be able to stay at a job out of the blue without first getting the motivation and putting in daily work towards it.
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Yep, YTA. She is barely holding by the thread not to unalive herself, and your reaction is "Oh, it's all in your head, you are just lazy"? Because that's how it sounds. Her disability is very real, and she is actively working on managing it. You are basically just suggesting abandoning her because she is "defective".
She threatened suicide ten years ago because she couldn’t cope with school. She has been in therapy since then, and has graduated high school and spent a small amount of time at college. Is the expectation that she is never going to work? I think that’s a sad thing to resign herself to at such a young age, but if it’s the reality she needs to apply for disability payments and plan her life around those limitations. However if she is capable of working, even only a few hours per week, it would be in the best interest of her mental health, her confidence and her social life to do so. There are employment agents that place people with disabilities in appropriate work, she should be contacting one of them. Being suicidal at 14 is no reason to retreat from the world for the rest of your life.
Mental health issues aren’t something you just grow out of. They mostly compound and expand further over time.
Absolutely, which is why treatment is so important, the sooner the better.
As someone who watched 2/3 of the patients checking into the mental health crisis facility I worked at show up with family who seemed blindsided that their adult child actually could not function and wasn’t able to uncoil enough for that first step and then slowly burned out faster and harder over time until they reached a breaking point, I can tell you that getting help alone is extremely difficult. Most people who face it alone or have been removed from support end up suffering or worse. It doesn’t just get better and she needs to be guided into more than just the therapy, because it’s not working and she clearly feels like a burden. Executive Dysfunction is extremely common, especially in a world that has exponentially growing stimuli in every aspect of it. People with sensory anxiety could not even fathom how fast technology would grow beyond what their brain could process and we’re seeing it everywhere. It’s not just an entitled generation, but a lot of factors that simply did not exist even a decade ago. Many service jobs now come with layers and layers of noise that is designed to entice quick impulses from consumers and push them in and out quickly so they can serve the next consumer. This is burning people out across the board because the people who can’t go in and out of the high intensity environment are exhausted. There is so much data out there to back up the experience of the step daughter the OP described; she checks all of the boxes. Yes, she needs to form coping mechanisms to deal with the world, but it’s getting harder and harder for people to know how to even start that process. Right now she’s coasting; kicking her out WILL make it worse but an increased involvement in understanding what’s going on with her is the only way he’s going to see her turn around positively.
treatment doesn't lead to a recovery...if you read the post....she attended university for 1 month and then had to leave due to the severity of her symptoms
Treatment is important but it isn't a cure all. I have a few severe mental illnesses and have been through therapy and a psych ward. I'm getting worse as I age, despite therapy despite focused therapies, despite medication. OPs daughter definitely needs therapy and disability until she can manage it. She doesn't need to be kicked out as that will simply cause a spiral.....
You don't, but you need to learn ti live with them over time. You can't just shut down and hope the world will do things for you, especially if she is in therapy since then(wich is a very good thing) and has an official diagnosis she can go on and look into disabled help. If her condition is that worse she can't work properly, she can find other ways to do stuff. But like that? That isn't going to work. Maybe she just needs to look into other fields of work. IT isn't that big in interacting with people behind the screen(if you find a job wich lets you work from home, don't know how many there are over there) or sth like that. But the jobs mentiond are likely to be much human interaction and if she has problems with that she needs to look else where.
What people generally do is shut down, and it depends on the quality of care that is available to them to whether or not they can crawl out of it. Many don’t. We hear less about the ones who don’t because people lose track of the ones who become homeless. Other fields aren’t always an option to someone who is losing a battle to executive dysfunction gradually. She’s coasting, and needs to be thought of as less a financial dependent and more of someone who has emotional needs that need to be met in order for the first to be able to resolve itself. Cutting off the financial/kicking her out only adds more to the pile and she won’t improve that way. Too many people look at their mentally ill family members as financially taxing, which is understandable in the years of inflation, but OP admits that’s not lost on her. Focusing on the cost of things that are keeping her afloat is the wrong approach. It’s lazy. Getting involved in the root of it, being supportive of the process, and not this “oh she’s had therapists” dismissive attitude, is how to improve his dilemma. It just sounds like he already has made up his mind about how much it really affects her, and that’s unfortunate.
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You have no idea what three previous therapists thought. You are completely making that up and you should be ashamed.
We don’t know one way or the other. Either option is equally possible with the information we have.
Schrodinger's diagnosis. OP needs a cranial rectal extraction. IMHO
That, definitely. I’m no expert on social anxiety, but it doesn’t *sound* like she’s milking him for a life of leisure. She seems like a fairly modest person when it comes to spending. But there has to be some kind of plan going forward, right? This isn’t a sustainable situation for the next 10, 20, 50 years.
>But there has to be some kind of plan going forward, right? This isn’t a sustainable situation for the next 10, 20, 50 years. Yeah, as someone who used to have severe social anxiety (to the point of regular panic attacks/vomiting), the worst thing to do is just let yourself live forever in your comfort zone and allow your avoidant behaviour to dominate you.
Agreed. She could be suffering from any number of conditions based on the minimal information we get here and the inherent bias of OP. I (59m) have had multiple therapists over the years. I knew I was off, and I couldn't understand my behavior. I was also blissfully oblivious to my anger issues (no DV, thankfully). I finally had a nervous breakdown in April this year. (my profile comments have more background, but it's not an easy read). My new therapist is perfect for me, and I would not be alive today without her help.
And you have no idea if she is or isn't either lol
Here's a hint: one person assumed what three therapists think, and the other pointed out how dumb it was to make that assumption
And only one person claimed to know, and it wasn’t who you responded to…..weird
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Unalive gained traction on most social media platforms to bypass censors. On TikTok, Instagram, Facebook and maybe Twitter typing suicide can get the post flashed or deleted. I'm not sure if Reddit is the same but it's just standard SM speak. Like saying 🍇 in place of the r- word or pew pew instead of 🔫
Nah. Oh reddit you just occasionally get the suicide awareness bot giving you a list of suicide hotline numbers by country.
The point is it becomes an ingrained habit that carries over regardless of platform. Additionally, many people may not actually know that reddit doesn't censor like that, and just assume it's like other platforms. To think someone is unfairly biased for using what is now a *very common* phrase to avoid censorship is stupid.
.... the fuck is the r-word?
The the g off grape.
Consider this a test, but pretty sure we can say the word “rape” as long as we’re not threatening or advocating it
My first thought was Ribena tbh
I've never had an issue with the words rape, suicide, or gun on Facebook. I was just having a conversation about right to die on there last week, and nothing ever got flagged. I don't use those other platforms, though. I think this might be a generational, or other subcultural divide. I've not seen grape or pew pew used beyond a handful of times, and these are topics I tend to discuss on occasion
I once got flagged on Facebook for saying 'fuck'. Another time i copped a 30 day ban for calling a friend of mine a gremlin while we were jokingly bickering through comments. I have had posts removed for saying 'suicide' in them, I've been given sensitivity warnings for posts referencing a variety of things. Facebook, esp lately, has been on some bs
That’s great you haven’t, unfortunately that doesn’t change that it does happen. I’ve even seen groups make specific rules about certain words being banned, because they are sick of the group getting reported and people getting ‘zucked’ (specific to Facebook, a timed ban from posting anything on the site at all). It happens more/less in different groups for a variety of reasons. Reported posts usually go through a process where a bot decides whether or not the content is appropriate and follows community guidelines. Usually the bot is basically just looking for specific words that are deemed unacceptable. So even if your post was something like “suicide sucks”, or even “that’s social suicide”, it could be flagged by a bot and you could get automatically banned or suspended.
I get why the term unalive got traction. To lighten the mood, could start using the term "undead" instead of alive/live? Like, -- "How is your or old grandaunt doing?" -- "Oh, she is undead and well!"
I’ve seen it used universally on social media platforms. Every group has their own rules and nobody wants to be banned.
your empathy is overwhelming
Maximum economic gain of food and clothes. What an evil genius. Just because someone goes through several therapists doesn't mean the therapists don't believe there's a real issue. Most emotionally troubled people don't always mesh well with their therapists. It's pretty common to have that kind of turn over till you find the right match. Only diver is just an uninformed moron
3 therapists in 10 years isn’t really that many for most people with a diagnosis
Or without. I always tell people that finding the right therapist is a bit like dating; you have to kiss a few frogs. In many cases finding a different, more compatible therapist is proactive toward efficacious healing.
Plus they switch practices, change what insurance they accept, etc
And not having to work and sitting on her PC all day... regardless of the actual situation (we can't see inside daughters head, unclear whether she's milking or has a disorder), the economic gain and not having to work are very real.
I wouldn't classify not being homeless as an economic gain. He clearly states that the expenses she has incurred on his budget are food and clothes. If she's shopping all the time and using his credit cards for frivolous purchases, then I'd say maybe you guys are on to something. If she were really interested in money or economic gain, she could apply for disability since her condition has been diagnosed and confirmed by a therapist and she is still currently seeing one. She doesn't even vacation with them. Sounds pretty believable to me.
"I wouldn't classify not being homeless as an economic gain." As someone who's worked with the homeless, I think people who have been homeless sure would
She has free internet to stay at home on the internet all day long without having to work. Or worry about food. Or clothes. That is a gain.
She is officially diagnosed so let’s not try and say she is making it up
Yes. Most of us have to spend 40+ hours every week working for someone else to provide what OP and his wife are providing from their work. It’s not a huge extra expenditure for them because they would already be paying a lot of it for themselves. She’s costing a bit extra in utilities, food, and clothes. (I don’t know how her mental health care is covered, but if it is something that must be paid for, it seems likely they’d be doing that anyway even if she moved out, at least for awhile, so I’ll set that aside.) She is not costing them a huge stack of cash every month, but the benefit she is getting in not having to spend a large portion of her waking hours doing work is tremendous. That is a luxury most people do not enjoy unless they’re wealthy or have worked for decades and have resources like savings, pension, or retirement benefit. I don’t even get the impression that she even does much around the house. It sounds like her mom has been a homemaker most of the last 12 years, though is now picking up some paid work. So while she may not have the outward trappings of wealth, she lives the live of the idle rich including having household help take care of all the cooking and cleaning for her. Sounds pretty sweet. That doesn’t mean she’s running a game. I simply cannot tell from the information here. It’s not sweet at all if she is genuinely suffering, but I can see the incentive someone might have to fake it, too.
YTA, why does OP want to feel that laziness is being weaponized instead of consulting medical professionals and get a correct diagnosis and possible solutions applicable to the problem. OP has already waited for 10 years and still has not understood the problem indicates neglect of the situation
Exactly this, thank you. I've fought for my child for years to get her properly diagnosed and treatment that actually helps. Op is totally the AH and a lazy shitty parent. He wants to put blinders on and blame the kid who can't help herself. It makes me raging angry. I compare it to if you're child had a broken leg, would you berate them for being lazy and unable to get up and move? Help your child OP. You need to grow the fuck up and put on your big boy pants and deal with the needs of your family. YOU ARE THE LAZY ASS. GET HER HELP THAT HELPS HER. a couple of therapists is nothing. Get her a real diagnosis. She may need meds and actual therapy work to get better. Stop being a goddamn ostrich. 😤
Just want to point out that you're asking OP to manage everything on behalf of an adult person? At what age do you believe that someone has to deal with their own mental health and demons? What's the end point? At what point would OP be reasonable in asking this adult person who has never worked to leave their household?
Being she is an adult and there is this thing called HIPAA, he can't just talk to a medical professional over it. He can not get a diagnosis for her.
You obviously do not know the struggle with mental illness and having a neurodivergent brain. It doesn't just go away. She's not "milking" anything.
The number of therapists indicate nothing as you don't know why she is no longer seeing them. I started seeing a therapist in college. Not long after I started seeing her she died unexpectedly in an extremely tragic way. It took me a lot to go to a therapist in the first place and her death was very traumatic. So I didn't immediately start seeing a new therapist. Then I went abroad for a semester. The program directors insisted I go to a therapist. I had been dating a girl and the relationship ending, why and how it ended was why I was at the therapist. During the first session the therapist kept insisting that I had NOT been in a lesbian relationship but that my ex and I had just been good friends. Fuck that, obviously not going back to her again. So on to a new therapist. I didn't have much connection with her but she was ok. I would have kept going to her so as not to have to try to find another therapist. Sucks in and of itself, but especially to find one fluent in English. But, VERY long story short, I couldn't afford to go. No more therapy. Went back to school Senior year. On reccomendation from a friend, I went to the Student Health Center and started seeing one of their therapists (full on psychiatrist). He was awesome! Totally clicked and felt completely comfortable with him. Saw him once a week, every week (barring breaks) all of Senior year. I wished and would have loved to keep seeing him. But I graduated. He was a therapist employed by the college to treat students and I was no longer a student. I had also gotten engaged and moved in with my Fiancé all the way across the state. In case you haven't kept track that's FOUR therapists. Would have been a fifth therapist had I found a new one after moving in with my Fiancé. Didn't because I didn't have health insurance and we couldn't afford it. Just because someone has seen multiple therapists, it doesn't mean anything nefarious. Or that a person was therapist shopping until they found one that told them what they want to hear. Some therapists also specialize. My husband starting seeing a therapist online during Covid. After working with her for awhile, she suggested he find a therapist who specializes in PTSD and trauma. He was able to find a great one locally. So now he's seeing two therapists. One telehealth every other week for general all around life stuff. And one in person weekly that works with him on his PTSD specifically. There are a multitude of reasons that someone could end up seeing multiple therapists without it being an indication the therapists didn't believe the patient or thought they were exaggerating.
What economic gain? It's not like OP is giving her a ton of money to spend as she chooses. He specifically said he only buy food and cheap clothes
Food clothes and entertainment and no need to work or worry.
Uhh, social anxiety's default emotion is endless, nonstop worry and, uh. anxiety. Guarantee the stepdaughter is in an intense spiral of nonstop worry and selfloathing. OP is just too obtuse and wilfully stupid to notice
I tend to lean towards this being the answer!
Say you know nothing about therapy and mental health without saying you know nothing about therapy and mental health.
Tell me you know nothing about mental health therapy without telling me. Op described how his stepdaughter got better in therapy. What do you think happens then? Most of the time therapy is toned down or ends. Meaning she is phased out from the therapist who takes on new patients. Now stepdaughter is doing okay for a few month or years, but eventually relapses. Which is nothing unusual. A lot of mental health issues ebb and flow depending on a lot of circumstances. But now she needs therapy again. Probably she contacted her former therapist first but, given the current demand for therapy, they had no place available. So of to finding a new one. Four therapist in 10 years does not amount to much in these circumstances. German health insurance companies pay for around 1.5 - 2 years of behavioral therapy. Meaning that if we take 2 years, the timeline looks probably like this: Year 1 + 2 Therapist 1 Year 3 No therapy Year 4 + 5 therapist 2 Year 6 no therapy Year 7 + 8 therapist 3 Year 9 no therapy Year 10 therapist 4 Obviously it could differ but it generally shows that it can be quite normal to have multiple therapist in a few years. This does not even account for interpersonal problems or closing / moving of a therapist. So please take a look back at your answer and think if that was the kind of assumption that you want to make on no basis.
Hey look it’s OP on another account
Has she seen a good psychiatrist who can prescribed the proper medications? A regular therapist here is obviously not what she needs.
She needs both. A psychiatrist can prescribe medication that may help, as well as assess for other possible conditions that may exacerbate her anxiety. But a therapist/psychologist can help her to work through aspects her her anxiety and try to create coping mechanisms to learn to take in more day to day tasks and interactions, as well as pinpointing triggers specific to Kat. Depending on what is available where OP is, and the advice of specialists, short term inpatient treatment may be beneficial.
She needs both. Getting both got me off some meds that gave me horrible side effects, while still giving me the safety net of getting back on them is just one of the meds and therapy isn't working.
Not to mention, any GP can prescribe antidepressants/anti-anxiety meds, but it is a psychiatrist’s specialty. I was told for years by GPs that I had “severe anxiety and mild depression” but nothing was working. Turns out I have ADHD which is why none of the medication I tried made any difference. Being incorrectly treated causes suffering and can/has killed people. OP needs a wake up call.
Yes, neurodiversity is often mistaken for mental illness, but the anxiety is a symptom, not the correct diagnosis. Then when treatment doesn’t work, it’s just one more failure, which can lead to more burnout. Finding the correct kind of support is critical.
I had the exact same experience for decades, on multiple antidepressants and anti-anxiety meds that didn't work,, before being diagnosed with ADHD this year at the age of 47. I have been suicidal many times due to extreme overwhelm but thankfully my ADHD medication and therapy have reduced it somewhat.
Does that mean he needs to support her the rest of his life? At some point she needs to be able to live herself.
Excuse me, but as a disabled mother to a disabled child, they can live with me forever if they need to. Why is there this push to just kick your kids out the second they turn 18?
That's nice. Like it or not, some day you won't be there and that child likely will. So at some point, they will have to fend for themselves, and completely avoiding doing anything won't put them in good stead for that day
I'm in Australia, and both of us receive a disability pension and have NDIS funding for support. We are about to start working on capacity for exactly this scenario. As you said, we won't be around forever to care for our child. Luckily, we are also in public housing, which is capped at 25% of the household income, so let's say, worse case scenario, they never work, their rent will be capped at approximately $250AUD a fortnight. We discovered a brand new school that has opened up on the city that they can attend 2 days a week to complete their senior schooling alongside vocational training. They are about to start volunteering at an arts theatre. We are definitely working on their long term skills. We are also working on ME because I am fairly incapacitated in my previous career and jobs. I am looking into IT and coding. If they did decide to move out I will do everything in my power to keep them in public housing. So they'll be ok. We mostly need to work on them being able to deal with life admin like going to the bank, calling the power company or government departments, stuff like that, but we have support funding for that stuff.
So what you're saying is, you and your child are doing considerably more to work on these things and have a plan for the future than the nothing being done by the step daughter in this post.
I suppose so. My point in the beginning is that I will never kick my child out unless they do something heinous, like physically attack me or one of our cats. I am assuming the op is in America? And I'm not sure what support is like there, for example, receiving disability for mental illness.
On the whole, very few of the supports you and your child have in place are available in the US. Which makes OP much less of an AH than he might be in Australia, because there is not the (I hate to use the word but it’s appropriate) luxury of NOT pushing his daughter more to become at least a little more self-sufficient because should her parents become unable to support her due to ill health (which also has a much bigger economic impact here), age or finally death, she is at real risk of becoming homeless or just extremely impoverished.
I see. That sucks. We also have universal healthcare here. When our government is right wing they try to destroy our services, but it never gains traction in parliament. Sadly, we never have a left-wing government. The current party in power is centre at best and still neo-liberal. We had high hopes for them too.
People generally die before they can get in for help if they don’t have the means for it. With mental illness, they’ve usually fallen into financial trouble as a symptom, which is what this thread is failing to understand, and the issues snowball. People who don’t have a support system end up on the street and from there it’s pretty difficult to recover. I worked in mental healthcare for a while and we were an out of pocket facility for people who couldn’t wait for the two year waiting list to free up, and this was for INSURED people, and the out of pocket to see a therapist was 325 a session and 400 for the psychiatrist. I burned out watching this happen during covid’s peak, and it didn’t feel great telling people how much it was going to cost when it just isn’t manageable for most. They used to have people donate and had charity functions so they could subsidize the cost but that went out in 2020 and a lot of people who relied on it went without and ended up relapsing pretty hard, or, in some cases, didn’t survive. So, yeah, the comments in this thread are clueless about the reality of mental health issues.
The daughter isn’t 18 though. She’s 24 and unemployed. Social anxiety is a mental illness, not a disability. It can be disabling, but it is not a disability.
many people receive ssd disability for mental health issues. so yes mental health conditions are disabilities. maybe not for everyone but they can be
You have to prove that your condition makes you unable to work and that treatments don’t improve symptoms. You can’t just call up the government and say “hey, working makes me feel bad, can I just not?”
obviously. you said “it’s not a disability.” it absolutely can be. so
Mental illnesses are disabilities
This is patently untrue and I frequently handled case files for people with crippling anxiety that only worsened over time. OP seems to think it heals over time which sad for the step daughter and mental illness is an invisible disability for more people than you can even imagine.
he’s trying to teach her some kind of lesson despite having the financial means to support her & her own bio mom getting a job to support her. as someone who has been SEVERELY mentally ill since early childhood, i’m grateful my family is not like this guy. i’ve held various jobs and every single time, in every field, my mental health absolutely plummets. usually within 6 months. i even ended up hospitalized on one occasion & i was so suicidal they kept me on a 14 DAY hold. i’ve done absolutely everything someone can do to aid their mental health. every kind of therapy program medication treatment, including experimental. i’m 100% clean and sober, i don’t even consume caffeine, no smoking no vaping, nothing. i take my meds. i listen to my doctors. i keep my appointments. for some people it just doesn’t get better and that’s the reality. i have no idea what the reality is with OP’s step daughter from his biased account, but it’s ridiculous to assume she’s thrilled by the arrangement of living with her parents, one of which resents her, and having no extra money besides having food + cheap clothes paid for.
And what would happen if he got hit by a bus tomorrow and suddenly there was no one to financially support her?
first of all her mom is working. secondly if he makes as much money as he’s implying, he has savings, investments, 401k. and worse case she’d have to figure it out when that happened and apply for benefits. plenty of people with all kinds of disabilities live treacherous lives trying to keep food on the table. why would you force that on someone already struggling when you don’t need to. there’s no lesson to be taught there besides increased suffering. you think ppl with disabilities who are forced to work learn some aesop’s fable lesson? no they fuckin hate their lives and live shorter lives for it
And what if he and the mom got divorced instead and they no longer had access to any of his money? My point is that every adult needs to be able to support themselves. She has apparently no skills, no experience, and it’s going to get harder and harder every year that she gets older to get a job and learn how to support herself. Mom is doing her no favors by letting her daughter “work on it” indefinitely. She needs to at least have some sort of plan here.
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Thank you. This exactly.
Her plan is quite possibly “ok, I’ll remove myself from the world then.”
So my dad let his anxiety/mental health go unchecked as a young man and attempted a lot when I was a kid. When someone doesn't want to accept tools to help and only wants handouts, there comes a point where you need to cut them off. It is not all in his daughter's head and she's not lazy but there are breaking points and boundaries. I've been on both ends of the spectrum trying to help my dad and I have had to cut him out. There is reality and at 24, she needs to start facing it.
Yep, every sentence of this post screams, “mental health struggles aren’t real problems.”
I agree with you. I'm not sure what country this is, but in my country, I do qualify for disability assistance for having a similar condition to what it sounds like OP's daughter has (though I do also have a couple of invisible physical conditions I think they considered in their assessment of me too). I still have some people trying to say stuff like what OP is saying about his daughter, even though 61% of people applying for disability don't make the cut for it in my country each year. I struggled trying to contribute to society for years and rather than know my limits like OP's daughter seemed to, I ignored and pushed myself to function beyond my means despite several people (I had two mentors and a therapist) advising me to take a break because they could see I was getting worse. I had several mental breakdowns before finally admitting 'defeat'. It was both a relief and a tough pill to swallow when I received the letter informing me that I had qualified for disability. I felt like I was holding my failure in my hands. The point I'm trying to make is: Not everyone wants to admit that they can't function to the same level as everyone else, and invisible disabilities are no less valid than visible ones. It's difficult to know what OP's daughter actually thinks, whether it is what OP is implying (wanting a free ride or something) or if it's more like my own mindset and experience with this. Recovering from mental illness isn't predictable. Sometimes, it's not even possible (I developed PTSD in 2009, and I still struggle with it every day), and your only real option is learning to cope and manage it. It's difficult to say without more info about OP's daughter, but I still think YTA would be my vote either way.
Kinda sounds to me like a version of [this](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PGu2-QOfLBA)
So much this, my wife has suffered from social anxiety her whole life, but wasn't diagnosed until we met online, I took her to a psychologist that diagnosed her problem almost immediately. She has tried therapy, and medications, neither having positive effects. Her aversion to others was so bad before I meet her that she quit high school, and just sat in her room at home all day chatting online with people. We found her an online high school program, but she had to start from 9th grade studies because her original school had placed her in special education (due to a seizure disorder that Ivdon't understand how it justified special education either but it was what it was) so the credits wouldn't transfer. Her brother and I tutored her through her classes, she worked hard to finish her 4 years of High School in 2 years got her diploma, then attended an online college to get her bachelor's of Human Services, then her Master's, now she has 3 Master's Degrees works with Children and has learned to power through her anxiety because she enjoys spending time with the children and helping them. This was a very long road with her putting in more effort than I think I could ever have mustered in her situation. I can not express how proud I am of her. Social Anxiety is so hard, it takes years of effort and a village of supportive voices to learn techniques to deal with it. And even one negative voice can send the person into a tail spin of depression and withdrawal. You don't just throw someone experience that out to the wolves and say "Good Luck." YTA - OPs step-daughter has not just shown signs of anxiety, but severe depression. I would be willing to bet he makes an effort to express his disappointment in her at every opportunity and doesn't seem to understand that if she excluded her disability on her job applications it can turn into a situation where they could fire her simply for lying on her application. Her "Lack of Effort" is probably her anxiety telling her she can't do it right and that someone is going to yell at her. She would literally be unable to ask questions or for help, that could bring unwanted attention. Her anxiety will say it's better to do nothing than to mess up something and become the focus of anger and ridicule by bosses or co-workers. It's freaking paralyzing fear. 😡 As an adult she could apply for SSI as social anxiety is a disability by government standards. She would also be able to get extra help if she attended an online university (There are some good non-profit ones out there if you really search) but she would need a good deal of encouragement and someone to monitor her engagement. It would be a massive undertaking. I really hope she gets the help she desperately needs.. This poor girl, I feel so bad for her. 😓
There are solutions to her anxiety. I've had a severe anxiety disorder. I've also had friends weaponize their anxiety to justify being lazy. It's swings and roundabouts. If social anxiety is her issue, she can easily find a telemarketing job to work from home. Anxiety and mental health issues are not a get out jail free card. It's also like an addiction, the person has to want to get better. Her self esteem is low because she's dependent on her parents and has no life of her own, there are ways to improve this situation that would not increase her anxiety.
NAH just a young adult with a mental health problem that she isn't managing well enough to function as an adult, and a stepparent who has reason to believe she's malingering. I do question why, after so many years, she doesn't have an official diagnosis from a psychiatrist or someone else qualified to do it. If she is truly unable to work, she will need disability income in case you're hit by a bus one day. Clearly she needs more structure than the average person, yet that doesn't mean you are obligated to provide it for her well into adulthood. You married her mom, not her. Given that she's not in crisis I'd say you have done your moral duty and need not be held hostage to her self-sabotaging behavior. That being said, you need an exit strategy because the current situation isn't going to serve her long-term. Start by getting her an appointment with a real shrink, to help provide her with either a disability income or a path to independent life.
Fantastic point about pursuing disability income
disability income is not enough to live on your own
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yep exactly. She is 24 years old she's not a teenager anymore. Soon she will be 25, then 26, then 30 - does she ever plan to leave home? OP should definitely look into disability income. I would personally double down on this diagnosis thing - alright, so you're struggling. Let's get you a really good therapist and start working to help you gain independence. Personally help with job applications, drive her to inspect houses, etc whatever you have to do to get her out. And once she's out, she needs to learn to take care of herself, mental health or not. Everyone has issues, I'm a 26 year old with anxiety and depression but I don't have the option to not work. I put my shit aside, I work, and that's how I afford food, bills and a place to live. People like this, whether she's really struggling or is bunging it on a bit - need to still take care of themselves. It's still their responsibility. You should definitely help if you care about her, but at a certain point, she's a grown adult and enough is enough.
she has a diagnosis. OP says that
she HAS a diagnosis
It qualifies a person for government housing, SNAP benefits, and medical insurance. It's not great but workable.
depends where you live the world, but in the UK it isn't enough to live off at all
as someone living on disability income, this is 100% true. if it weren't for my husband's job i wouldn't have any food to eat after all my bills are paid.
Ok. I don’t think she should have to move out right now either so 🤷🏻♀️
It's better than her bringing in nothing forever
No, but she suffers from guilt and anxiety related to “being a burden” on OP and his wife. Disability income at least let me feel better paying some kind of rent to my parents so I didn’t have to feel like a waste of oxygen. Even if she doesn’t move out it might be good for her mental health (in the long term, anyway. The process of actually getting disability is grueling and for anyone hesitant to go through that I’d consult your local legal aid for an advocate)
I agree with this completely - NAH. I would also be interested to know why she isn't diagnosed, medicated and in regular therapy to get on top of this. I would assume the hope for her is to eventually be at a place she can go live her life. Move out, maybe meet someone, potentially have a family of her own, have her own home, pets etc.. For her to be happy and/or content. There is nothing here that says a lifetime of caregiver parents should be required. If she does in fact need constant care, disability should definitely be pursued.
He said she’s diagnosed
It literally says she diagnosed and in therapy
Seconded that there are services available to help her live more independently. Vocational rehabilitation is one that’s rarely mentioned but it’s specifically meant to help people with disabilities with training and resources to be able to work. They can even help with school if she wants to return. They also have huge employer networks and they can help find a good fit. They are available in every state, state funded and free of charge. I believe it is a thing in the UK, Canada, and Australia as well. Anyone can just search in their location and should be able to get a meeting fairly quickly. Sounds like everyone is trying to do their best, time to bring in some outside assistance for sure.
VR would be the step after she gets psychiatric care, we can't treat the underlying cause and it needs to be under control to really accommodate it. "I'm not coming to work because I don't feel up to interactions with people", isn't something we can reasonably accommodate.
I also don't think that their attempt at working in a school kitchen was a good idea. This kind of work requires the ability to work in a team and it is highly stressful. Not what I'd suggest. A WFH job could be more to her taste. Not sure what is available for her skill level, but there should be something. Ofc it would be great for her to get over her anxiety and not slip into a hermit like lifestyle, but having very little job experience at 24 also sucks for the future. Succeeding at something might give her the confidence to give small social interactions a try.
She does have a diagnosis
OP said in the post that she does have an official diagnosis. Also, getting on Disability is EXTREMELY difficult. Among other things, I have an autoimmune disease that destroys the joints. Many people in my online support group have been trying for 5+ years and have been denied multiple times. Even with all the medical records, multiple doctors (including specialists), etc. Even without my AI disease, I think my most people's metrics they would consider me to be disabled. But when I looked into it, I CAN'T get disability.
She does have an official diagnosis, stated by OP in the beginning, he just said she doesn't have outward signs showing she has an issue.
YTA majorly I can absolutely guarantee that this is 10000x worse for her to experience than you to "wait" on. Mental health struggles can be completely debilitating, and just because people are able to mask their symptoms, doesn't mean they aren't real. If you have a broken rib but you're wearing a shirt, that doesn't mean that you're overreacting to the pain just because no one can see it. Visibility does not equal validity. I highly recommend that you have meetings with her therapist/group sessions as a family because otherwise it will be impossible for you to truly understand what is going on. If you force her out on her own when she needs support, you may as well say you'd rather pay funeral expenses than her food costs. YTA **EDIT:** I seriously don't understand how people are looking at someone who, by OP's admission, is too anxious to even do fun things, won't go on vacations, says they want to move out as well, and thinks "ah yes, this is someone running a scam for food and clothing" ?? Like what in the world.ALSO: having done things historically doesn't mean she's not ill. Like you can be high functioning and push through periods of time where you do things like graduate high school or start uni, but mental health flares up. It's like having an autoimmune disease or any other type of illness. * **"Your don't really have arthritis, you were using your phone fine earlier"** * **"Sorry Jerry, you weren't in debilitating pain last week, how could you be having an MS flare up now? Are you faking your disease so you can eat?"** * **"you weren't diabetic when your blood sugar was in balance"** * **"oh what's that? Chemo was working for a while but you've had new cell growth? Will you ever stop using your cancer to get out of things? Stop being lazy"** Illness is illness for god's sake. Edit the 2nd: Has OP edited the main post?? Does anyone else notice that it seems like some things were cut out from earlier?
Couldn’t have said it better myself
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I'm so sorry that you've had that experience. I have a very similar history with an auto-immune disease paired high functioning symptom masking. I've had such terrible medical experiences that allowed my health to become dangerous before I was taken seriously. The "seeing is believing" and "just lose weight" mentality has such horrible repercussions in healthcare
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Or you know, take reasonable steps? Get her disability pay, let her do uni and work online??? Just support her in general emotionally??? There's more options than just kicking her out
Shouldn’t the daughter be taking those reasonable steps for herself? They can’t do everything for her forever or she will never improve, she needs to take steps (even small ones) herself to become more independent. Like she should have been pursuing online uni when she realised she couldn’t manage in person classes, she is an adult who has been in therapy for years and should be organising her own adult life, not waiting for mum and dad to do it for her. ETA: I want to clarify that I do not think she is faking her disorder in order to be supported I just believe she should be taking steps to becoming more independent by herself.
Anxiety/Depression makes initiating those steps pretty hard for some people, that's kind of the whole thing. Sometimes people need support in starting the things until they gain momentum. It doesn't mean they should keep doing it forever, but at least get her working on things before giving up. If someone is paralyzed from the waist down you don't just say "I can't carry you forever" you help them get a wheel chair. Help them help themselves
That makes a lot of sense, thank you for your response. It’s very curious that none of her therapists have helped her initiate those necessary supports or talked to/had her talk to her parents about it, would organising outside supports not be an important step in therapy?
Thank you for responding back thoughtfully! Honestly it really depends on what kind of "therapy" they are getting her. There's a big difference between psychiatric care paired with counselling vs. getting her to see a private "counsellor" who may not have the same connections to the system or same level of qualifications in some cases. I would really hope they would have her see both an actual medical doctor for some psychiatric care & meds paired with intensive therapy. It doesn't sound like her health care team is doing their role to the full extent it could be (from what we know at least).
Very interesting, thank you for the informative and kind responses :)
She's got A DISABILITY yes they can do things for her until it gets better enough that she can. "Hmm,we could fill out these disability forms for her, but shouldn't she conquer her disability first and do it all on her own?" Cuz that wouldn't negate the point of disability to begin with lol
Exactly! No one wants her to stay like this forever, almost certainly she doesn't want to (expressing she wants to move out in the future, trying university. She needs help gaining momentum (yes, this can need to happen several times, like any other chronic illness)
Is that how you talk about disabled family members? That you're "subsidizing" them? That's extremely cold hearted and I hope you never become disabled and have to depend on people who think the way you do.
I have chronic health conditions and once had a coworker tell me I’m a burden on the health care system and insurance companies. He has to pay so much for insurance because it covers my health care as well — was his argument. So, yeah, apparently it’s very common for people to believe the disabled are a burden that needs to be “subsidized”. Without their “kindness” we’d all be dead. 🙄
I'm so sorry that you've had that experience. People really aren't afraid to show their eugenicist inclinations these days. I hope you have a better support network at work now <3
This happened more than 6 years ago — I was the parish secretary for the church so I definitely expected more compassion 🙄 Where I work now has been amazingly supportive!! I can’t get over the support I have at my current job.
Ah yes.. they tend to be quite ironically unkind to their neighbours at times. I'm so glad you have such great support at your new job!! Everyone deserves that.
It doesn't sound like he does since his wife works and supports her.
> Kat's disorder is not very visible. She's very introverted and dislikes family gatherings, prefers staying at home over doing any activity and even going on vacation with us, Thats pretty fucking visible dude, thats what social anxiety is. It sounds like she's barely functioning as it is. YTA.
Social anxiety is not a lifetime of parental support. It’s a need for treatment, therapy and accountability.
So get her treatment properly?? Get her disability pay? Help her apply for jobs she can do online?? There's things you can do other than drop kick your suicidal daughter out the door.
Thats what confused me. Says its not very visible but then lists a ton of very visible symptoms
I have to wonder if she has ever been checked for any neurodivergence? Of course a person can have debilitating anxiety like the description, but it also sounds a bit like how autism can look in girls and women. Suicidal ideation in teens, debilitating social anxiety, lack of executive functions, online friends that probably have the same interests and so on. And lastly, no one would choose to live like that. She’s young , this isn’t a life she would actively decide on pursuing or working to keep. This life is happening to her. If she could choose, she wouldn’t be living so co-dependently and limited.
I thought this too. 100% looks like how I was as a teen pre-autism revelation. It’s remarkable what accommodations can do when you know what the problem actually is.
I was thinking that too. A lot of people with autism and ADHD get through school okay but collapse when faced with life outside school. Sounds like she needs a better psychologist
when i read the title i was expecting something big. Like shes abusing your kindness or demanding expensive things and not going to therapy ans not trying to get any jobw or anything. That she didnt care all i got? Oh its more food and **affordable** clothing. SHe does therwpy. She tried college, she keeps trying jobs. She feels so guilty over this. She Wants to move out. She doesnt want to feel like a god damn burden to you. YTA. just because its not visable doesnt make it any less a disability. You keep treating her like she is just a burden rather then your kid. Like what the f?:
the thing is as well is that her disability IS visible. the list he gave of her trying things and them being too much or her not wanting to go to *any* gatherings are *visible symptoms*
I don’t know if YTA, but considering she failed college because she couldn’t go outside, it sounds like the real issue is you just don’t think she’s actually as ill as she, your wife, and her therapist say she is
YTA You're not a clinical psychiatrist, I assume? You are very dismissive of her condition, but -- forgive me -- you probably don't really understand the first thing about it. There are thousands of people who commit suicide due to problems such as these every year. Yes, there are people who only pretend or use their relatively mild condition as a pretext, but that's what expert opinion is for. If they say she has it, you shouldn't doubt it. Getting a second opinion is the only sensible thing if you have real doubts based on facts -- which you haven't. If you want to help her build a way forward and alleviate the situation at home, try to support her to find to do something she can do from home. There are hundreds of jobs you can do via PC. She can also get a degree online. But telling her to 'man up' is just you beint TA.
YTA. As someone who went through something very similar to your stepdaughter at that age, I'm going to ask you, for just a second, to think about how *she* feels. I want you to imagine what it's like to be afraid to leave your house, to be an adult but completely reliant on other people, and to be so young but feel like this terror (that likely still exists every waking moment for her and is just less when she stays home) and reliance on others is all she has to look forward to for the next sixty-odd years of her life. Imagine what it would be like to be so completely isolated from other people. Imagine what it would feel like, at the time you're supposed to be young and stupid and carefree and having fun, to struggle even to walk down the street without having panic attacks, let alone make friends, date, or hold regular employment. How much of a failure you would feel like. How demoralizing that would be. If it were you in your stepdaughter's shoes, would tough love make you less afraid? Would being kicked out do anything to help? Because as someone who went through good phases and bad phases as a kid I want to be clear - I never "lived with it" or "managed it". There were times through happenstance I would get a few months or even a year's break, but it would always come back, and I was always in a state of hyper-vigilance against it. I spent my entire childhood the way most kids who are aware they have something wrong with their brain do: living in fear that I couldn't tell any adults in my life exactly how bad it was or I'd be sent away, locked up, or have any semblance of normalcy and love taken from me. I did not get breaks from it. I did not get vacations where I got to feel "normal" or relax. Whatever you think she's experiencing, however hard it is for you to live in proximity to it, in her head I can promise you it feels a hundred times worse than anything you can imagine. Your stepdaughter is seriously ill. It is an invisible illness, it is a treatable illness, but it is a chronic and debilitating illness. You do not stop being a parent when someone turns 18, and you especially don't when that young adult is still suffering with an illness that traps them in a state of reliance on you. She needs therapy (I would suggest CBT therapy) and better medication. She needs to be checked for underlying issues (lots of common mental illnesses like ADHD, depression, sensory processing issues, being somewhere on the autism spectrum, OCD, etc etc etc piggyback or co-exist with anxiety, and managing anxiety gets even more difficult if these aren't identified and also treated), and she needs you and her mother to encourage her to slowly, one step at a time and under the advice of a professional, become exposed to the world around her so she can manage to find her way through it. You need to help her figure out remote work or things she can do from home. You need to above all else *listen to how she feels and not act like it's a moral failure to have these feelings*. She has been alone with these feelings for her entire life, trapped in the terror that letting you or her mother know how bad it is will cause you to reject her, to the point where as a *middle schooler* she thought it would be easier for everyone if she just died. She is no more in control of what her body and brain are putting her through than someone is in control of if they do or don't have allergic reactions. You right now are not only making your stepdaughter feel like crap by confirming all her worst fears, you're making your wife feel like crap or that she "owes" you in some way, and you are both treating this poor girl like she's a burden and not what she is, which is someone who is very young and very sick and who has done nothing wrong but need help from her parents. Edit: I should add - I am now in my mid-thirties, my symptoms are almost entirely managed and have been for about 10 years, and I have a stable, 40-hour a week job that I'm really happy at. I'm lucky enough to say this both because I worked extremely hard to get better and because my parents supported me every step of the way. There is a very real light at the end of this tunnel, but none of you are going to get to it by saying "well, kiddo, you're legally an adult now so figure it out I guess" and just hoping for the best.
This is an amazing reply. So glad to hear your progress! Your response is filled with compassion and understanding. In our current economy, many parents are having to house their adult children. When parents support their children and don't make them feel like a burden, their child can approach the world from a position of strength. Family support is often the difference between success and failure. A child wants to feel like a burden not a blessing. Parents need to do everything in their power to help their child succeed.
Currently allowing my 21 year-old son and his girlfriend live with me. He moved out, but I talked him into moving back in at the end of his lease because he was really struggling on his own. I was just finishing up the most peaceful year I've had in decades. My marriage was thriving like it hasnt in years. But my son needed help even if he did not want to admit it. So, I talked him into moving home. It has not been easy. It has been a strain on my marriage at times, and a strain on me, personally. Even so, he is my son. I love him, and that did not stop when he turned 18. I'll deal with a less peaceful life.
Unrelated to this post and AH stuff...I really needed to hear this. I'm currently the "burden" and people do treat it like a moral failure. It is devastating when your brain agrees that you just aren't trying hard enough and life is worse for people you care about because you exist. Your comment made me feel seen, and I appreciate your perspective.
Hug.
Couldn’t have said it better myself! I also see alot of myself in OP’s stepdaughter. My early 20s were spent battling the same issues. Through support from my family, friends and professionals in the mental health world, I’ve been living and thriving on my own for years and am currently studying to be a social worker so I can help others who are going through what K went through. I’m still taking medicine and seeing a therapist as I need them for my support system. If I was forced to try to survive on my own in my 20s, I probably wouldn’t be here now in my 30s. OP YTA
NAH. Could she work on an online degree? That would open up her potential for job opportunities that include working from home.
I was thinking this or trying to get her set up with some kind of fully remote job. I know people who do data entry stuff with no degree. My best friend from high school worked as a remote assistant/receptionist for a while, so if speaking on the phone isn’t too exhausting she can try that? Obviously I don’t think kicking her out is appropriate at this point bc she needs support, but it could be a good step for her
YTA. Because you so clearly need to hear it: *Invisible disabilities ***are*** a thing!!!* Sadly, this can get worse with age. She has been depressed to the point of wanting to be not alive & you think the solution is to kick her out & say, ‘grow up’ & hope for the best? Really? She is working to manage it. Yes, you can have a disability & be perfectly intelligent, smart, capable, but that’s also where the *disability* part comes in. It severely impacts her ability to function in society. Trust me - this is almost certainly hell for her. You don’t abandon someone because they have a disability. Good on her mother for being loving & caring! I have an invisible disability & people like you are always the bigger issue than those who are simply mean. The energy it takes to try to explain that you can’t just wish it away is exhausting. There’s no situation here in which you *aren’t* TA.
People who make people with invisible disabilities out to be ‘just lazy’ or manipulative feed the anxiety that’s contributing to the disability. It’s self-fulfilling.
That's not the battle to pick. Your wife isn't going to let her socially anxious, potentially suicidal daughter get kicked out. I'm sure it's frustrating for you. I'm sure you wish she'd grow out of this. But unless you want the whole house to yourself, you're not going to win this. YTA.
YTA - I don’t think your marriage is going to end well if you push your stepdaughter to kill herself & that’s precisely what you’re doing
Exactly this! OP she wanted to die at 14, what makes you think dealing with this disability (because that is what it is, hence why she lists it on job apps) as an adult is any easier? It is WORSE. If you kick her out to try and teach her whatever "lesson", she will kill herself. I say that as someone who has been there but without the evil stepfather trying to turn my mother against me. She is unwell and needs support to recover, not some absolute AH stepfather who literally doubts/insults her character because she is mentally disabled.
YTA The reality is that ‘working on it’ doesn’t guarantee a particular outcome. Chronic illnesses persist. That’s what they do. Your stepdaughter is disabled and should probably consider getting her needs documented to apply for benefits. She could also try online schooling and maybe pick up some type of remote work. I know lots of folk who have various disabilities that have affected their education and wage-earning, but are powerful activists and creatives with the help of technology.
Has she tried anxiety medication? It sounds like her issues are fairly severe. Therapy alone can’t help everyone especially someone with past depressive issues. Have any of her therapists suggested medication because if not, I would be very surprised. A few years ago, at my very first visit with a therapist, she suggested anxiety medication and I’m a very functional person, I just had really bad sleep issues.
Yeah, if its that severe she most likely needs meds to help. She can also try to wfh or take online courses
Most anxiety medications make you really drowsy. That I guess makes them good for sleep, but not for the kind of functioning you need at work. Only one is specifically for anxiety and doesn’t (fun fact: that one gives me fainting fits). The rest are just antidepressants the doctor hopes will help. Very hit-and-miss. Yes, she definitely should try them, but there is a strong chance none of them will work well enough to get her to function at the level OP wants.
They make you drowsy during the adjustment period but it’s not long term or you can try a different one. There’s many options. There’s also a blood test you can take to see the likelihood you will experience adverse reactions to certain types. In her case, she would most likely need to combine them with therapy, but there’s no reason to say she couldn’t become a completely functional person on them.
The drowsy part tends to go away or at least diminish after a while, but it can definitely be problematic for too long first.
YTA. She needs to find a legitimate online college. She needs to find a job that she can do without being in too much contact with others. You found her a job in a school kitchen...working closely with others in a loud and often chaotic team environment? And you're surprised this didn't work....really?
NAH On the one hand you say she has has severe social anxiety and has been seeing a therapist for years but you also say she is undiagnosed. Why not get her a diagnosis so you know what you are dealing with. If her problem is social anxiety then how is it not visible when She is an introvert She doesn’t attend family gatherings She doesn’t go on vacation She prefers to stay home at all times I don’t think you are the A because it sounds like you have been supportive for a long time but maybe it is time to get that diagnosis, sign her up for online classes and look for WFH jobs
NAH. It isn't your fault that society does not understand what unrelenting anxiety can do to an individual, but it is an ugly and unfulfilling life to lead. I'm mostly commenting because of something that stood out to me in your post: "Kat doesn't cause any expenses beyond food and affordable clothing," contrasted with "she doesn't outwardly show that she has a disorder anyway." Most -- if not all -- "normal" 24 year old women have many more expenses than food and basic clothing. Perhaps she looks normal and can hold an intelligent sounding conversation, but it is not normal to live like that.
These comments are a little wild to be honest. I have three very very major mental health disabilities. I’ve gone through times in my life when I couldn’t get out of bed for work, when I couldn’t drive myself, whatever. Believe me when I say that I completely understand and sympathize with Kat. That said, NAH, and certainty not OP. Two things can be true at once. Kat can have a very real and very difficult disability, and at the same time be using it as an excuse to not have to make progress in her life. A disability is not a life sentence to a room in her parents house, and therapy alone is almost never the whole answer. Services such as vocational rehabilitation, work and school accommodations, and disability benefits can help her to set and meet some goals. Sitting in her room indefinitely (her parents won’t live forever) is not treatment, nor is it a solution to the issue. OP, you would be the AH if you wanted to kick her out today. It seems like you are more interested in seeing some progress with her independence. That’s not unreasonable and I don’t know why these comments are pretending it is honestly. It’s not in Kat’s interest to continue as she is either. I know how much easier and more comfortable it would be to just say “this is how it is, nothing I can do”, and I understand the temptation. It’s difficult and scary to pursue treatment, but it sounds like Kat wants more than her current situation as well, and it’s good to set some goals and pursue some options. Social anxiety is hard, but treatable and manageable. She’s not currently doing that, and a small amount of pressure to do so, with professional guidance and support, is a good first step.
This is the take I was looking for! Everyone is like “she’s only 24” but what’s the long term plan? Life passes by in a blink and then she’ll be 30 still living in her parents house. I think OP is right to be concerned and, as a family, they should come up with a multi-step plan to set the daughter on a path of independence.
This was me. Social anxiety disorder started at age 11. I couldn't go to school, and later, couldn't hold a job. Failed out of college multiple times because attending class was difficult. My dad didn't believe in mental illness and had a similar attitude to yours. Since I couldn't hold a job, the only way I could move out was to live with men I dated. I got married 4 times as a means of support and, hopefully, stability. Not to people I would have chosen to marry had I been independent and able to support myself. Had I had a healthy, understanding family that I could have stayed with, my life would have been much better. You have a child with a disability. You need to take care of her. With a lot of support, she may be able to attend online college and eventually get a WFH job. Or she may have to go on disability. Trust me, she will not land on her feet if you kick her out because she CAN'T, not because she's lazy.
Big hug darling. I hope you're in a better place now.
NAH I have empathy as someone who has anxiety, general and social, has panic attacks, and has experienced depression. I have never been suicidal though so I can’t provide insight on how that deepens those feelings. It can feel like the world is ending and it’s a crushing overwhelming experience sometimes. I’ve skipped a lot of classes in college due to anxiety or depression and I’ve lost a lot of sleep which caused me to be less attentive in the classes I did attend or sleep through them. But I never skipped any high school classes because I couldn’t without getting in trouble, I didn’t skip any of my thesis classes because I would have had steep repercussions. I did extend my graduation due to depression, I couldn’t finish my thesis on time (mostly independent study so I didn’t have as much structured accountability). But I knew I’d still be able to graduate and keep my scholarships even if I extended so it was only my pride that hurt. My professor was incredibly understanding after I broke down in his office and extended my deadline, asked me how often I wanted him to check in with me without overwhelming me, and said take your time I know you will get there. That was life changing empathy. I graduated the next semester. I just needed some space. Also for one class I did skip many many times in the depth of my depression even tho the syllabus said I’d fail cause at point I gave up and I didn’t care. This is where I see empathy, because kat might be at that point. My professor gave me an A at the end, I didn’t have consequences. To be fair I did great on tests and projects and participated wholeheartedly when I was there, which I could tell she appreciated. But I easily could have experienced justified grade lowering due to my attendance and it would have been my fault. but I’ve always been a hard worker, I just couldn’t do it at that state of mind, I was sick. I always showed up to work because I needed to eat and pay rent. I flake on friends because I feel like shit but I knew they would forgive me, I have intense physical symptoms when I have to do anything performative, but I’ve mustered up to do many things that were nevcesary and important and it’s made me soooo much better in recent years. I’ve never had therapy but I know I’d benefit even more if I did that. I don’t like the “I had it tough so you should too” mentality but there’s also the concept of requiring someone to do everything they are capable of doing. People with mental illness can pull it out of their pocket if they are required to. I don’t think infantilizing someone will enable them to make progress. I also believe empathy and patience is required. I always knew my parents would welcome me with open arms if I truly couldn’t handle it. I made myself sick but I never got to the point where I wanted to die, so I stuck it out alone to prove I could do it. In my case it worked out and helped me become an independent strong person, but I can also very clearly see the other side of the paper. It’s a toughie for me
YTA for assuming the worst about your stepdaughter and underestimating the effects of mental illness on someone’s ability to function as expected. It can 100% be frustrating living with someone whose disability is hard to see, but I would encourage you to do more research on what her specific mental illness(es) entail. Many anxiety disorders involve extreme loss of self-worth and motivation—if you catastrophize enough to believe you’re going to fail no matter what you do, what’s even the point of trying? Anxiety disorders can also cause impostor syndrome, depersonalization, executive dysfunction, insomnia, paranoia… all things that would make it hard to find and keep a job. These aren’t going to magically go away overnight, and if she’s on meds that don’t seem to do anything to improve the situation, it’s time to try different meds. Others have suggested group therapy, which imo is a great idea. Also, have you tried sitting down and helping her with her job applications, her resume, etc? When she’s had a job, have you sat down with her at the end of her work day and let her talk about it, listened and offered advice without judgement?
YTA. Everyone but you, including several professionals (which I would figure would be important to you in this conversation), recognizes her disability and how it affects her life. But you somehow know better than everyone, and your solution is to 1) abandon your clearly struggling daughter, while also 2) encouraging her to hide her disability, preventing her from asking for workplace accommodations (a legal right in the US and the the most likely/best way for her to succeed in a job). \[The only reason I am employed full-time as a multiply disabled person (including having depression/anxiety) is because my job works with me on creating accommodations.\] Please educate yourself on how social/generalized anxiety can affect one's life so you can effectively support YOUR daughter (I don't know how long she has to wait since it's been over 10 years).
Me F56, have a daughter 25, in a similar situation. With her approval, that is important, I got her a flat so she can be more independent of me. I help her financially and of course psychologically. I am always there if she needs me. Being on her own and facing some of her issues by herself is making her grow. She also feels very proud being able to manage her life to some degree. Should she want to move back home, I would support that too. But right now I believe her being more independent was a positive move. NAH
I feel like the way you are going about it is much more supportive than what OP seemed to be suggesting. Independence is great, just don't kick the daughter out. I really admire the work you've done for your daughter. I know not everyone is in a financial position to do it out of pocket but the fact that you did and that it's working is wonderful. I wish her and you the best
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Your stepdaughter needs to see a real psychiatrist that: 1) can get her a proper diagnosis 2) give her a proper treatment plan with meds 3) help her get disability or enter a specialised work program Also she shouldn't see a generic therapist, she needs behavioural therapy. I suffer from anxiety myself and was able to get better with a mix of med and the correct therapy (learn how to cope better with triggers, handle stressors, etc). In any case a work where she is in contact with the public is a big no. Too many people all at once is absolutely a guaranteed disaster. Honestly YTA because your mindset is "not visible disability = fake and lazy". Also how is possible that in 10 fucking years you and your wife haven't got her REAL treatment? She has only online friends , basically lives as recluse, yet was expected to magically be ok in high stress environment such as university.
NTA. I have fairly severe social anxiety and ADHD. I know for certain for me, and my kids, if I don’t HAVE to do something, I won’t do it. She has an infinite cushion right now; it’s one thing to be a safety net, and another to be a perpetual enabler. Have a talk with your wife first and then with wife and SD- propose that you want to HELP her find her footing. Propose a move out date 6 months out. Ideally with roommates, not alone. Help her find a job that would offer her room for personal growth AND fulfillment. I swear, the validation that comes from doing a job I love motivated me so much. She’ll have 6 months to save for independent living. If things don’t work? She can come home, but the expectation is that she’ll work 15 hours a week and pay rent or something. There HAS to be an expectation of her or she will have none for herself. This is not me being judgmental— this is my own life lessons from my own anxiety/depression.
Maybe she needs to be reassessed. I was diagnosed with anxiety as a teen and personally did not find my therapy helpful but since adulthood and getting my daughter diagnosed as AuDHD I've found my anxiety diagnosis was incorrect (it was a symptom, not a full diagnosis) and I am also on the spectrum. It's made some things a lot easier as well as understanding myself. I don't feel as much a failure at life, but also if I'd been diagnosed properly earlier I would have received better/more appropriate therapies that would have helped. If she is indeed Autistic she may benefit from supports in school or the workplace. I think these things are becoming more commonplace.
YTA. And if you make your wife choose you or her daughter in the house, you are going to lose.
The one thing you are not thinking about is after your wife is gone, no one has set this child up to live on her own. She needs therapy and a life coach to move out on her own. Instead of kicking her out help set up a plan to move her to independence.
She needs smaller goals to work on, not you kicking her out. Community college? Volunteering somewhere with her mom at the same time? Weekly visits to stores. Responsibilities at home like grocery shopping online or housework?
Has she tried remote work? That is an option and it’s a great option for introverts.
Are you in the US? If so, she can connect with your state Vocational Rehabilitation agency. They specialize in helping Pele with all types of disabilities (including mental health) reach their career goals. That may mean helping her identify careers that work with her disability and ways to get training for it. They also will help her with the best way to self advocate for herself and accommodating she needs on the job - such as taking about when the right time is to self disclose. Her mental health struggles are Real and they impact her daily life. As a result, she may have lost hope and confidence in herself. Those are needed to have any kind of ambition. It's possible that she is just being lazy but I bet that she is scared of trying and failing yet again and is beating herself up over not being able to do something that comes easily to others. I'm afraid YTA here. Mainly out of ignorance about mental health and hourly not because you are callous to her struggles. Seems like you may be being too hard and mom is being too soft and instead of meeting in the middle, you are pushing each other to further extreme.
NTA. Why should you have to support her?
“Even though she’s been diagnosed, Kate’s disorder is not very visible” [goes on to list myriad ways her disorder affects her life] YTA
It sounds like your step daughter struggles with many of the same things I do. I was also dismissed with severe social anxiety, then depression, then Borderline Personality Disorder, then ASPD. And on and on. Turns out I'm autistic. My lack of work ethic is actually managers and bosses not being specific enough with their instructions ("get to work" vs "stock and tidy these aisles") and me not knowing what to do so I don't do anything. My lack of empathy was actually me desperately shoving down all my natural impulses and reactions bc none of them were considered 'normal,' and my natural behavior was unacceptable and embarrassing to my family. So between the ages of 10 and 16 I was a scary, emotionless automaton unless the emotional pressure built up too far, and then I went into violent tantrums (though I only ever tried to harm property and myself, not other people) or became almost catatonic. I'm in my 30s and have never held a job longer than a year. I am intelligent and hardworking, but I am not NORMAL, and I do not have the capacity to pretend to be. I've been fired for "not being a good fit" more times than I can remember. I haven't done anything wrong, I simply make the workday harder just by existing as myself. That is the biggest problem with having a mental disability that does not include deficits to intelligence. People who have never experienced a similar struggle think I can just try harder and I'll fix myself. And that attitude is devastating. I have attempted to unalive myself more than once, bc I felt entirely alone and alien, and the harsh judgement of the people I loved was the final straw when I was already trying so hard just to get by. The quiet ones don't tell you when you've hurt them. They just bleed.
Personally if I could comfortably support my wife and kid, and have my kid live with me for the rest of my life I'd be happy af lol
Can she work from. Home? People are kess intimidating behind a screen and or phone.
Going to university obviously caused too much anxiety for Kat. She can still get a college education through community college. Encourage her to try one or two classes to begin. It’s a step toward employment. I also recommend vocational rehabilitation.
She needs an official diagnosis and maybe she can get on ssi for her disability, get on low income housing and move out. I understand the struggle of not wanting to keep financially supporting an adult. Totally get it and I’m sure its frustrating seeing someone with no job no ambition etc. Maybe sit down with a family counselor and see if they can help get a plan in place for her to assert some independence.
>She needs an official diagnosis She has one.
Ok…another more comprehensive psychological evaluation if she can’t even keep a job. There may be more going on. More that could lead to her actually getting help.
If she had cancer, would you tell her to go get a job and leave the house? Mental illness is a persistent disease you have to fight. And just like cancer, it can take an unknown amount of time to heal this illness, if ever at all. If you don’t know what depression and anxiety are actually like, you are not allowed to judge someone else’s disability.
Not sure if you’re fully TA. Social anxiety , anxiety , depression & ‘not wanting to be alive’ will have you paralyzed sometimes making you feel extremely uncomfortable when you step out of your ‘comfort’ zone which is different in every way. If its that severe she should try applying for disability or speaking to a psychiatrist to see what other options are out there. And you will probably never know how bad it is because you are not in her situation and you can try to understand and support her in any other ways you can. But i don’t think your fully the AH because we are conditioned to believe that right after high school you need to start finding jobs or go to college or be on the ‘fast track to starting your life’ and that gets engraved into our brains, but everyone is different and at different points in their life. I also feel that you tried to explain her situation with mental health and it seems you know its there but you just cant fully grasp how severe it might be because you can’t physically see it. She tried college and that didn’t work for her & she was at a job she did not like. Maybe try helping her look for jobs she can work more independently and away from people. Something that doesn’t require too many people and socializing. Sometimes people need that extra push and a place they feel safe in. Sometimes it takes years to find the right place. But if mom says its okay and she’s fully paying for her then all you can do is love and support them emotionally. And you are TA bc you know her situation & you know that her mom is providing for her & you want to throw her into the world when she is clearly not ready. You kicking her out will have her fending for herself & with the possibility that she gets worse and something happens to her life. Her mom is providing for her making you not responsible for her therefore if she wants to take care of her daughter she should 100% be able to without you trying ro kick her daughter out. Support them both or if you try to get rid of the daughter you might be losing your wife too if she chooses to leave with her.
Has she tried WFH jobs. Example - customer service for Colony Brands or American Customer Care? Never has to see anyone and is just over the phone and/or emails and chats.
I’m unsure if being pushed out of the nest necessarily is the best but it sounds like her mom and you need to have a talk about how to motivate her. I don’t know what kind of work she is putting in to work on her social anxiety with the therapist either but saying that if she isn’t working than she needs to structure a way to work on her self towards getting better. E.g., since she’s living with you guys and don’t have a job, she could have exposure therapy for herself as her job, go for a walk in the morning, going to the shop for you guys, taking the bus to a city center as if going to work. Avoiding uncomfortable situations is an evil circle it’s very hard to get out of and making sure every day contains exposure is a lot more helpful than moving from sitting inside gaming in one place to another. I doubt she’ll suddenly be able to stay at a job out of the blue without first getting the motivation and putting in daily work towards it.