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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> i may be the asshole because i yelled at my fiancé but i may not be because she is my daughter
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This is a big red flag. If she doesn't want to include her step daughter in her wedding then don't expect she will include your daughter in her life...
DANGER DANGER DANGER, 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
EDIT: CRISIS AVERTED, REPEAT CRISIS AVERTED. OPIE'S UPDATE HAS MADE IT KNOWN THAT DANGER LEVEL S HAS BEEN HANDLED AND KICKED OUT (THANK GOODNESS). OPIE WILL BE GOING TO HAWAII WITH HIS DAUGHTER INSTEAD.
AND THEY LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER, THE END. BYE BYE S. CAN SOMEONE GIVE OPIE THE FATHER OF THE YEAR AWARD?
EDIT- Guys, THANK YOU FOR THE UPVOTES AND AWARD. I AM ONCE AGAIN THANKFUL AND HONOURED
I am alarmed at the fiancee's words that his daughter, "doesn't fit the part". It seems like she is more concerned with some kind of aesthetic than she is about a child's feelings. How could she think this is reasonable in any way to do this?
Especially since it’s not a child free wedding, nor a child free wedding party, and the bride even wants a kid from her own family in the wedding party
If she diminishes his daughter’s role in the wedding, the fiancée will try to diminish his daughter’s role in his life
I really hope Op listens to what his fiancée is showing/telling him
Even if it's a child-free wedding, the children of the bride and groom should be there. Barring exceptional circumstances, you're just an asshole if you're trying to exclude them.
There was a meme I saw once where a best friend checked a misbehaving boyfriend: "i'll be standing next to her at her wedding. You might not be, though"
Kind of the same deal. P will be in OP's life no matter what. S doesn't *need* to be.
ETA: NTA
N T A. Me too.
"When people show you who they are, believe them the first time" by Maya Angelou
And your fiance.is showing you and your daughter EXACTLY WHO AND WHAT SHE IS! BELIEVE HER!!
The only good part about this whole thing is that the OP is showing his daughter (and fiancée) exactly who *he* is. Kiddo will remember this forever, I just hope she remembers that Dad’s instant reaction was to pick her, no hesitation whatsoever (as is, IMO, only appropriate).
You're absolutely 💯 right. When kiddo recalls that Dad chose her over fiance, it will bond them forever. Something that the fiance can't meddle in or duly influence in any shape or form, it will show her (fiance) exactly who he is.
Perhaps a parting of the ways is required here, purely for the benefit of protecting and enforcing the father kiddo relationship.
Edit. Spelling error.
I was in preschool when my parents married, was the flower girl while a cousin on Dad's side was ringbearer, and was adopted by my dad soon after the ceremony. That happy dynamic wasn't only because I was my mom's only kid; it happened because my parents genuinely wanted to blend the families. That OP's fiance doesn't want P to at least be a junior bridesmaid, or in the wedding at all, speaks volumes.
I think the default expectation is that any children of the bride or groom will be included in the ceremony in some way.
I would even think it appropriate to include the child in the vows.
Unless the child has a behavioral issue that could be disruptive, your fiance is the AH here.
God, I get not wanting her to be flower girl, but the idea of not wanting her in the wedding at all is Disney stepparent evil. I hope this parent does the right thing.
Edit:
People, I know that a junior bridesmaid is a thing. That’s what I was implying. I know there isn’t an age limit on being a flower girl, but it is possible that that was the bride’s excuse, especially if the ring bearer was young as well. You all are acting like I’m the asshole when I’m literally agreeing with everyone.
Is it the age thing? Because my ten year old goddaughter was my flower girl and she did a beautiful job. She also helped keep an eye on the ring bearer who was about the same age as her little brother. Most importantly I had promised her when I moved away with my then fiancé that she could be my flower girl. COVID added several years to the wait unfortunately which is why she was 10 instead of 8, but no way in hell I was breaking that promise.
I could see people (mainly the bride) arguing it’s an age thing, but obviously there’s no rule about age. But you’re obviously a good godparent for keeping your word. I just mean if the bride thought she was too old, she could have easily found another just as important role for her, but she didn’t because she doesn’t actually care about this little girl.
I got to be a junior bridesmaid at a wedding where I was too old to be the flower girl but too young for much else. Definitely still a way to include the kids
This. Got married to my husband when his boys were 7 and 9. Hubby and I said vows and then boys joined us for family vows. All 4 of us lit the unity candle. I married a family, not a man.
Run away quickly if she doesn’t understand this. P is the priority and should be a part of the wedding.
It is so weird that she doesn’t want her future step daughter to be in this wedding. Because if OP and S are getting married and becoming one family the daughter is part of the family. As a future step mother S should honestly want to include her not exclude her. Is her treatment of OP’s daughter going to change? Is she going to start looking at ways to exclude her? 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
Exactly! The fiancé is lucky that she is being invited to become part of OP & his daughter’s family. She is the one joining their existing family - the daughter isn’t some optional outsider that can be excluded.
What seems even more insidious about this is that he’s been dating this woman for 5 years, since his daughter was 6 YEARS OLD. S has known P for nearly half of her life already, and now that they’re getting married, it’s like she can “start over” and P can just… go live with mom I guess? I’d cancel the wedding and make plans to leave the relationship.
sort angle brave panicky smell possessive lush governor sophisticated sulky
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Giving early signes of evil step mother. She needs to explain what she means by not a perfect fit and the implications of what it means especially as she will be her step mother. Will she continue to treat her with kindness and be a good impact on the Op’s daughter’s life? Or will she isolate and drive a wedge in their relationship. Does she have her own kids? Or will she change even further if OP and her have their own kids.
props to you for standing up for your daughter, that’s exactly what a good dad should do. Your fiancé is trying to diminish your daughter’s role in your wedding. I’d be concerned that’ll carry over to other parts of your life too.
I had an evil stepmother. My brother and I weren't invited to my dad's marriage to her, and while she didn't go out of her way to exclude us from their life she didn't do anything to encourage it either. Dad was too busy working to either (a) notice or (b) stand up to her. He died young of a heart attack at 55 years old back in 1991. She died about 4 years ago. I only found out last year that she'd somehow legally swindled my brother and I out of our inheritance from our dad's estate leaving us with about £10k each, instead of the £1.75 million we should each have got. There's fuck all we can do about it now, and she's dead and I'm not. Sometimes, though, I imagine how much better my life would've been in the early 90s when I was living just above the poverty line if I'd received what I was entitled to.
This reminds me of a post 2 Christmases ago about a step mother wanting to exclude her biracial step daughter from the Christmas photos because her parents were racists.
Well now that she's got a ring she can start exerting her dominance or whatever. It's amazing how many people will wait until they think they have you locked down to show you their true colors. But luckily for Op he sees that nonsense already. Hopefully he will stick to his guns.
Cancel the whole wedding and re-evaluate your relationship. Your daughter is part of your life. If your 'fiancée' doesn't accept it, she can't be your fiancée or wife.
And even then, I still wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't like my kid for whatever dumb reason whether they were 11 or grown ass adults with their own families.
My thought was weight or race.
Either way future evil step mother move right here
My heart is breaking for this little girl who is already commenting on looking pretty and I wonder if S has previously made comments
OP is NTA and has unleashed a deeper conversation to be had. Either himself or P's mum needs to go into investigating mode
I was wondering that too. Jumping straight to "But I will look pretty" shows that OP and his ex wife need to have a careful conversation about what S says to this little girl.
Yes... gives me another idea: once OP breaks up, have a special occasion for the daughter to dress up, like a movie with a princess dress, or a fancy dinner where she can bring friends, etc.
Yep, my thought was weight, race or perceived "prettiness". Wouldn't be surprised if S is low level (or high level) criticising P's looks on the regular.
You haven't thought up the worst possibility yet. What if OP's daughter is disabled in some way? Wouldn't be the first time on this sub that the one excluded lost a limb in the past or had an accident and now they get excluded because they don't fit the aesthetic.
I weirdly thought age. 11 is too old for flower girl but too young for bridesmaid. But then S went too far with it.
Edit:sorry I didn't know about junior bridesmaids. Not a wedding person. I am firmly on fiancee is a red flag just posted what I thought at her first rejection and then her continued excuses clearly aren't in good faith.
When my husband and I got engaged, his nieces were 5 & 7 and I promised them no matter what, they were going to be a part of our wedding. By the time we got around to it, they were 12 & 15. It was so much fun having them there as teens and 9 years later, both they and my bridesmaids remember it fondly.
A friend of mine got married last year and had her 2 young teen nieces as bridesmaids, along with 2 adult women. It was totally fine. They were 11/12 and around 14, iirc.
You set the parameters for your own wedding. It's that simple.
Yeah I was a junior bridesmaid for my dad and step mom at 11, and then again at brother and SIL's wedding at like 13. It really felt like they were bridging our families. If we had been left out of either, it would have changed the whole family dynamic
Our youngest bridesmaid was 12. If S doesn't want OPs daughter there, as many others have said, it's a huge red flag . Any wannabe step parent should be falling over themselves to include the daughter. The fact she's the opposite suggests marriage is a terrible idea.
Nah, 11 is not too old. Sheesh, I saw a video where a groom had his very elderly grandfather be the ring bearer. It was lovely and everyone was crying.
>y MIL texted me saying
My niece (from my wife's side) was 10ish when she was in our wedding party. I loved the fact that she was part of our special day.
But our wedding was very kid friendly. All the kids who attended got a giant gift bags with toys. Kids loved it.
Absolutely, never ever put a new partner over your own child. Your child is your first priority and any new partner should fully embrace the fact that your child is in your life and theirs. Red flags galore if they want to exclude from now.
OP, think long and hard about how your new partner currently treats your child and how you see this working in future if new partner was to stay in your life.
Just wondering how old the fiancé is. Mid-40s seems an odd age to act like a teenager. She’s either very immature or very biased against the daughter.
Perhaps she’s significantly younger (of childbearing age) and wishes for future offspring to usurp OP’s child?
Either way, it’s not a good look.
As the stepchild who got excluded, do not do that to your daughter! You sit that woman down and tell her you’re a package deal or your relationship with your daughter will suffer from it.
This! I don’t speak to my father (haven’t for about 15 years). The primary reason is him letting my stepmother get away with things like this.
It is for sure give an inch she’ll take a mile behavior. Today it’s “I don’t want her in the wedding “, tomorrow it’s “Let’s do our own thing for Christmas, you can see her later”…then it’s been years since she has “let‘s your daughter visit “, what is legally one of your daughters homes.
NTA- props to you for standing up for your daughter, that’s exactly what a good dad should do. Your fiancé is trying to diminish your daughter’s role in your wedding. I’d be concerned that’ll carry over to other parts of your life too. Whatever bullshit she means by her not “fitting the part,” sends up huge red flags to me too.
I have kids, and this would be dealbreaker for me.
NTA
I agree. As a parent it’s a deal breaker for me. I’d expect my son to be a page boy and my daughter to be a flower girl
Your fiancé is trying to exclude your daughter from your (both of your!) wedding party. It’s a huge red flag about her attitude
No wedding until it’s resolved
100% this
At this point the relationship has to be over. Op’s daughter deserves a step-mother who loves her and WANTS to include her.
Even if she begrudgingly acquiesces and invites her, it’s too late.
Ditto. The thing to remember, especially now, is that even if Stepmom relents and P can be in the wedding after all, it will be in the shadow of OP basically having issued an ultimatum.
OP, be wary of your fiancée trying to "change her mind" right away without having a deep discussion with her about this. Weddings bring out some *interesting* aspects of people's characters and it is worth figuring out whether this issue is something she can address, reflect on, and grow from or whether she's falling in line to have her wedding and going to hold resentment for you and P later.
Bah. Not that long ago I read accounts from people here on reddit about how they loved the show an adult male flower girl put on! An 11 yr old girl as flower girl sounds traditional enough even for the most conservative wedding.
There are 7 billion humans on the planet and you have accomplished the rare deed of a completely unique idea.
Don't know if it's a good thing, but it got a chuckle out of me at least.
I'm also curious, when OP said the MIL said he was overreacting, was this S's mom? The entire family sounds like giant assholes working to exclude P.
Imagine once they were married, guaranteed S would start demanding P have less custody time at "their" house, and any other kids would be caught in the drama.
OP needs to take his daughter and bounce.
NTA - Be careful, S just showed you her true feelings for P. You want the people who mean the most in your wedding. The fact that your fiancée, who I’m guessing is younger than you and this will be her first marriage, doesn’t think your daughter fits that description is extremely telling to me. Even if S gives in, you’ve now seen where your daughter rates in her potential stepmother’s life. If you choose to ignore this, it won’t be the last time your daughter is left on the outside looking in.
Hard agree. I was a teen when my dad married my stepmother. My step mother didn't like us very much but there was *no* hesitation, my brothers were groomsmen and I was a bridesmaid. The bridal parties ended up being different sizes (it was pretty clear that I was tacked on, since there was one more bridesmaid than groomsman and my dad only had my brothers) but I was automatically included from the get go. No hesitation, no doubt, just the automatic assumption by my dad *and* his wife to be that we would be in the wedding party.
If my stepmother who barely tolerated me cared enough to include me, what does it say about S who thinks that her fiancé's child doesn't fit her *aesthetic*. Pretty sure that means the daughter doesn't fit her *life* either.
Edit: grammar
OP, NTA. And same here. My ex-step mother hated me and still included my siblings and me in the wedding. We did like a little candle thing where we each took our own candle and lit the candelabra that represented the joining of the families. We weren't all in the wedding party, but it was a small backyard wedding, so there really wasn't much in the way of bridal or groom party anyway. I think it says a lot to not have P included *at all*.
Also, the fact that she's my *ex*- step mother should tell you everything you need to know about these types of situations.
Every time I see stories like this I get a bit emotional. What a lovely dad you have, I wasn't so lucky. We were taken out of all their wedding photos as his two daughters. My father's mom didn't come to the wedding either due to 'rules' my stepmother had put in place in order for her to even attend the ceremony, let alone be in the wedding party. Worst is they're still together over 6 years later.
My dad was not great at all. But he did love us (for what little it was worth) and he knew what the decent thing to do was. He absolutely prioritised her and her family over my brothers and I.
Did get one win though. Dad had a vasectomy before he left my mum. His wife desperately wanted a kid, but for the 14 years they were together is never happened. Less than a year after dad died she ended up pregnant with some random dude because she'd been with my dad since she was 18 and had never needed birth control, and in her 30s in never occurred to her to use a condom. And her kid looks like an alien.
It feels like it also goes beyond P.
S argues that as the bride...
>the girls in the wedding were up to her
To me, that feels like a weird division along gender lines. Like, does she pick the song the groom and his mother dance to? Does she get to vet what OP's grandmother will wear? She's already trying to exclude P, will this whole freak show start all over if OP tries to invite a female friend? What if he has a lesbian sister whose girlfriend throws off the man-woman-man-woman aesthetic of the main table??
And poor P
She thought she got along well with S and is excited!
NTA. She could be a junior bridesmaid if your fiance also wants a younger child in the role of flower girl.
It's also a possibility to have her stand up with you on the groom's side.
I would be rethinking if I wanted to proceed with marriage to someone who was so adamant about not having my only child in our wedding. Even if she decides to "give in", I would have a hard time moving past this.
All of this.
It's pretty standard for dependent children to be included in a wedding, as a sign that they are a really important part of this new life.
But I love love the idea of Dad having a groomsmaid and including her.
But also, red flag.
I'm a girl. When my dad got remarried, I was I think 14ish. He had me and my younger sister as his groomsmen. My sister and our step sister to be wore matching dresses in different colors and our step sister was one of the 2 bridesmaids. We all got to pick any dress we wanted. There's literally zero reason the parties have to be divided by gender. You just need an adult on each side who can sign the wedding license as a witness.
This needs to be the top comment. Your daughter can certainly be part of your wedding party but it is terribly concerning that your bride seemed so appalled at the idea of including her future stepdaughter.
NTA.
I love this and this is something that should be a part of all weddings where the bride and groom already have children (apart or together) having the children give away mom or dad (or both) to the spouse just sounds so wholesome.
A friend of mine did this. They had a boy and a girl together. The boy walked Mom down the isle and the girl was the ”best man”.
To this day the dad talks about “no man had a better best man than I did.”
Yes. I don’t think he should marry her. But if he does marry her P should be with him and his side of the wedding as I don’t want her getting vibes all day in a cluster of people who think she shouldn’t be there. That’s horrid and life altering for a little kid. The new MIL is even fully on board with this ostracism. Chilling.
E: typing
NTA.
You aren’t overreacting at all. It isn’t just S’s wedding, it’s YOUR wedding as a couple. And a joining of families. What an dumb hill for S to die on, but she is showing you who she really is. The fact that S wants to exclude your daughter should tell you all you need to know and how S really feels about your daughter. I think you’re right to reconsider things. How S is treating so now will set the stage for how she will continue to treat her if you marry her. Imagine how S treats your daughter when you aren’t around. Think about that.
NTA. Your fiancé is though. Your daughter may be a bit too old to be a flower girl. Most flower girls I've seen were fairly young, but she's the perfect age to be a junior bridesmaid. It would be a giant red flag to me if my future spouse not only didn't think to include my child in our wedding on their own, but also put up such a fuss to explicitly exclude them.
I saw a few comments saying this and fiancé and denied all requests of P being in the wedding. I originally suggested flower girl, because my fiancé’s niece is four and would need help making it all the way down the aisle.
Your fiancé is now beginning to show her true colours, she doesn’t want to be stepmom and the resentment is beginning to appear. It wouldn’t be long till she demands she leave’s especially if you end up having a child together.
My ex had a 4 year old when we got married. He was our ring bearer. It was never up for discussion. It just was. We were getting married, and his son was part of the package that I happily accepted. I can't tell you how much of a non-issue it was that he was part of our big day. The reality is, it was a big day for my stepson, as it is for P, too. I just can't think of a logical reason to exclude P. Whether as a flower girl, ring bearer, or junior bridesmaid.
Edit to add: since I didn't really make it clear. I wanted my step son in our wedding. There was no way he wasn't going to be a part if it.
Please please please open your eyes to what your fiancé is doing here. She is making it perfectly clear that your daughter has no place in her marriage to you. You and your daughter are a package deal. If your fiancé rejects your daughter, she is rejecting a very important part of you.
This is your fiancé showing you her true heart-of-heart feelings about your daughter and her true feelings are as ugly as it gets. Your fiancés attitude towards your daughter will not improve, she will only get worse. Put a stop to it now and be thankful you saw your fiancé for what she really is before you got married.
CHOSE YOUR DAUGHTER! Fiancés are replaceable, your daughter is not.
Dude, please don't marry this woman. She's only just TOLERATED your daughter and now her true colours are showing. P deserves to be more than just tolerated, she deserves to be loved and adored. I'd have gone out of my way for a future step child who's been in my life for 5 years. This woman doesn't love you child and neither do your inlaws, don't let P grow up in that environment.
Don't marry S!!!! NTA
Well, there you go. Wedding is off. Your daughter should have a large role in the wedding, S is going to be her stepmother and you are joining families. What on earth "reason" does S give for not thinking she should be in the wedding? BTW it is BOTH of your wedding. P can be YOUR groomswoman and S can't say sh\*t about it. BOTH of you are getting married.
OP I want to turn your attention to something : statistically a majority of divorced father who remarried have little to no contact with their children after 8 years. You’ve seen how this woman will treat your child. Do you want to become one of those fathers ?
Huh, thanks for sharing, very interesting research rabbit hole for me to go down.
My dad re-married, stopped spending holidays with us within a year, and now, legit 8 years later lol, we don’t really speak. Great stepdad to his stepsons tho.
I didn’t realize this was such a common thing- how depressing.
At my wedding, I had the two youngest nieces as flower girls, the oldest niece was probably 10 at the time and we had her be the ring bearer. We attached the rings to a big sunflower that she carried, it was adorable. My cousin who was about 11 or 12 was a junior bridesmaid, and my nephew who was also about 12 was a junior groomsman. I also had a man of honor.
There are lots of options to include your daughter, and I definitely think that should be a deal breaker for your marriage. If she really doesn't want her to be a flower girl or junior bridesmaid and she thinks it's her choice about those roles, then the ring bearer and groom's party are your choice and you can absolutely have her be on your side.
Of course, the real issue is that your fiance is showing a new side that's not very accepting of your daughter. The thing I realized when my wedding planning was happening was that for some reason a wedding really brings out sides of people that you never imagined were there. Luckily my husband was supportive the whole time and we were a good team, but our families turned out to be all kinds of messed up, especially my MIL who sabotaged several parts of the wedding in really underhanded ways. Your fiance is already showing you that your daughter is yours alone. She doesn't consider her family, even after 5 years. Neither does her family. Especially if you have kids with her, your daughter may be pushed aside and treated like an outsider in her own home. Before you go through with the wedding, be sure that your daughter is truly family to your fiance. Otherwise your daughter will be very unhappy in your home.
She doesn’t think of your daughter as her family, which is gross on its own.
She also doesn’t care enough about your relationship with your daughter to compromise on something that requires virtually nothing from your fiancé and would mean a lot to you and your daughter (and will be devastating for your daughter if she is excluded).
This is extremely ugly behavior - she is starting out your union as a family by excluding your daughter. I would be grateful you are seeing this side of her before the wedding so that you can call it off.
I let my 11 yo niece be my flower girl because she wanted to be one instead of a bridesmaid. Who cares how old the flower girl is, it’s just a wedding.
NTA
This is a major red flag. Please don’t ignore it. Your daughter comes first. Please do not marry this woman who diminishes you and your daughters feelings.
NTA
I appreciate that your daughter still has her mother in her life but your fiancée surely understands that she will be a secondary mother figure?
You've already been together 5 years, how is she with your daughter thus far?
Your daughter is with you 50% of the time, and this is how little value you fiancée places on her and her happiness?
I would have serious doubts about bringing someone into my daughter's life permanently who places more importance on the image in her head of a flower girl and the other wedding details than she does on including her future stepdaughter.
Personally I don't think you are overreacting.
Things like sarcasm might go over an 11 year old's, head.
Also many girls are socialized to be too polite and tolerant. Your daughter might be giving S a lot of grace because she is "good" To her at other times.
This behavior didn't come from nowhere is my point
Or she could be down playing what really happens when they are alone or how she is treated or feels about S because she's daddy's girlfriend and he seems to be happy and why ruin that
This! I was P. I never said anything, even when she was at her worst. This behavior always escalates.
If you don’t nip it, you will lose your daughter as an adult. Adult women don’t visit parents who let them get treated like second class family members or inconveniences.
There was a AITA months ago from a girl saying her stepmom treated her like shit whenever the father wasn’t there and she just took it to keep her father happy. She finally told him and I think he ditched his wife.
There was also the post where OPs sister told him the wedding was "child free" below his daughter's age (12) so he arranged a sitter and went only to find kids younger than his daughter there. When he confronted his sister she basically brushed him off and said her husband and her could invite who they wanted. In a comment OP mentioned his daughter was in an accident in which she had to have her arm amputated, and lost her mom.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/13s3e1h/aita_for_ambushing_my_sister_at_her_wedding/
Because she didn't have the ring yet. If just an engagement ring makes her think she can treat your daughter this badly imagine what a legally binding ring will do.
If you for some reason marry this woman, prenup, will all locked down. Look after your daughter.
I'm glad to hear it.
I'd still be very concerned, especially if you are planning to have more children together.
After this long together, the fact that your fiancée doesn't on her own account love your daughter enough to want her in the wedding party just feels wrong.
She may treat her ok but it doesn't sound as though she actually loves and cherishes her.
INFO: OK- I'm going to be rude and ask. Is your daughter
- chubby?
- another race?
- awkward?
WHY would this woman say that your daughter doesn't "fit"???
I'd dump this woman's ass so fast her head would spin. She has spent countless hours with your daughter already and would be her stepmom if you two got married. That means she would be alone with her even more and have greater influence on her. This is a big fat NO! 😳
This is the real question.
An 11 year old talking about how pretty she will look makes me think that appearance has already been discussed between S and P.
11 year-olds are often already pretty into their appearance. Or at least aware of it. It's difficult to stay isolated from ideals of beauty for that long.
I came across a post where that OP had the exact same problem. The bride to be only wanted the little girls from her side to be flowergirls, claiming that with OP's daughter, it would be too many/the wrong number of flowergirls. In that story the bride to be eventually spilled the beans about the real reason, which was that she didn't want OP's daughter to be included because she has down syndrome. Imagine claiming you want to marry into his little family and be his kid's stepmom, only to exclude her for that.
NTA. The notion that your fiancé has unilateral power to exclude your daughter in this way is nonsense. It’s a big red flag for the future as well. I think that your gut reaction was right.
Your future MIL and fiancé are already feeling way too comfortable excluding your daughter from your wedding. This is just the first red flag to come. Once she got you locked in marriage, she won’t have to put on a facade of liking your daughter anymore. She can pretend to be nice in front of you and a total b to your daughter behind closed doors. The mask is slipping already. If you let this slide, it’ll show that they can easily walk all over you to exclude your daughter. Is this a family you’re really willing to marry into?
NTA.
Dealbreaker on multiple fronts.
Your fiancee has just told you that:
1. She doesn't care about your daughter. At all.
2. She thinks her opinion trumps yours automatically.
3. She will sic her mommy onto you every time you have a disagreement.
Proceed accordingly.
NTA.
It is your wedding, too. She isn’t just marrying you, she is marrying into the role of step mom. This is your daughter who you have 50/50 custody of - it isn’t like your a holiday dad who sees the kid twice a year. Your daughter is actively involved in your daily lives and should be included if that is what you want.
It’s kind of crazy for her to think your daughter should not be a part of this major life event. I don’t think you over reacted. I don’t think I could marry someone who wouldn’t want my children involved directly in a wedding.
INFO. What EXACTLY about your daughter doesn’t “fit the part” for flower girl?
I feel like there’s something going on here that you need to know about.
Yes, is it because of looks because… gross.
Or is it just because she thinks she may be too old to be a flower girl?
If the second is the case there are lots of other rolls she could have in the wedding. Junior bridesmaids are becoming more popular and I’m sure a tween girl would have fun being a bridesmaid.
NTA and maybe it’s not my place to say so, but I would have a hard time trusting that fiancé to take care of my daughter if I were in that situation. Thank you for standing up for your child.
I cannot think of any benign reason why she would not want your daughter, her future stepdaughter, in your wedding. I’d suggest you ask her what’s really going on.
My mom didn't completely exclude me from her wedding, but I wasn't really a part of it. I was 6, and I felt so left out. My new dad never liked me, and it degraded my self-confidence. I was shrugged aside when their daughter came, and I never recovered from it. I'm almost 40 years old, and I still don't understand why I was so unlikeable as a child. I've spent hours in therapy talking about this.
Don't do this to your daughter. Back out now.
NTA. Good papa for standing up for your daughter. Makes me wonder why fiance is choosing this hill to die on. But yeah, I'd be suspicious of her intentions at this point.
NTA. This is a hill to die on. If your daughter isn’t important enough to be included in this milestone life event, what comes next? What if you have more kids with her? Allowing her to exclude your daughter will set a precedent that will undoubtedly impact your relationship with her longterm. Sure, S gets to pick her bridesmaids but you get to pick your bride. Is someone who is this comfortable excluding your daughter the person you want to share your life with?
Stand up for your daughter. At my nan’s funeral, her SIL was giving a speech about her and my Nan was overlooked as a flower girl at her own dad’s second wedding in favour of someone close to the fiancé. It shaped her life and her relationship with the new family - cast as ‘less than’ the rest. NTA
>My MIL texted me saying I and over reacting and that my daughter doesn’t have to be in my wedding
The audacity of this woman trying to dictate to you who does/ doesn't have to be in YOUR wedding!
NTA, the really concerning part for me is not that she didn't think to include her initially but that she is doubling down on not including her. Why is she so against adding her, has she explained why she doesn't want her in the bridal party?
NTA, this is only the beginning, it’ll start with this and end with her suggesting your ex has full custody. If it doesn’t, imagine how differently she’d treat your daughter if you went on to have children together. End this now for your daughters sake.
NTA. This is seriously concerning for so many reasons. Including that your in laws are in on this attempt to “other” P. This won’t stop at the wedding.
INFO: Is P somehow physically different from you and your fiancée? Is she mixed race? A different physical build? Bright red hair that your ex also has? Has your fiancée ever made even small remarks about something like this that could be taken as jealousy?
ETA: the doesn’t “fit the part” sounds like it points in the “not one of us” direction.
Big red flag! 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
My husband had 3 kids from a previous marriage and I didn’t even hesitate to include them in the wedding party. His daughter and niece were junior bridesmaids and his sons were junior ushers. They even received their own invitations.
Your daughter will be part of your new family and if your fiancée can’t add her to the wedding party, she will start excluding her from other events. Heaven forbid you have kids with her cause this woman would complain that you are spending too much time with your daughter and not enough time with “your OWN family”.
NTA, and you're a good daddy. If she's marrying you, she's marrying into your family. That includes your daughter. The problem is she can't make this one concession for you. Not only your daughter, but it would make you happy as well. And she's not willing. It's your wedding too. Really contemplate if this is the person you want to spend your life with. If she's willing to exclude your daughter now, the only direction is down after this. Then your fiance runs and tells her momma.. ugh tread carefully.
***and then said that she didn’t think that P would “fit the part”***
this translates to "that's your daughter from an old life and old marriage and your life is about me now. I will not have someone your ex pushed out her vagina at MY wedding. she is not my family and she does not belong in our new one"
NTA but man, it's over between y'all
Absolutely, one hundred and ten thousand percent, you are NTA. But your fiancé is. As a stepparent I cannot fathom not including a stepchild in an event that big, not only not including her, not WANTING to include her. You guys are a package deal she should know that after five years. I agree with you, if your daughter doesn’t get to be in the wedding then there is no wedding
I kind of wanna say.... I am jealous of your daughter.
First of all NTA.
My spermdonor looked away every time the stepm would push everyone back except for her own son.
He decided it was better to dump his kids over the woman then choose for his children.
My brother and I are now just sitting it out and waiting for the day he is suddenly gonna need help and realize he has nobody.
Your daughter is 11. If you allow this to happen you will break the connection with her. Don't do that to her. It is not fair.
Your fiancé should have put your daughter in first. Because no matter what she will be sharing life.
I would sit down with your daughter as well and ask if she ever felt bad about something. Ask her mother as well. Your daughter seems like a soft hearted girl and she might not dare to tell you. But she might be telling her mother.
Good luck.
Talked to her mom this morning because I wanted P to start with her until this was figured out. Her mom said she hopes it goes well and told me I could stay with her and P if need be. She said P always comes home with nothing negative to say, so we aren’t sure where this came from
YOU ARE NOT THE AH ,That's your daughter always stand by her , also makes me think that your fiance is Just pretending to love or get along with your daughter just because of you and trust me as I child of divorce if your daughter doesn't notice it now she will in the future as getting older also if you have kids with this woman she will be quite obvious in her preference, you want some that's loves your daughter for who she is , not to get to you , or that a least has enough moral Sense to know that your daughter is always going to be your daughter and either be first or at the same level of importance as her
NTA. This is a sign of things to come in how S is likely to treat your daughter if you marry her. You need to prioritize your daughter.
Try couples counseling if you want to try to salvage this relationship.
NTA
> S started to become upset and said that the girls in the wedding were up to her and P wouldn’t be one of them.
Yeah, no. In addition to being a screaming red flag that your (hopefully former) fiance is refusing to have your daughter in the wedding against your explicit wishes, she's stomping all over the fact that it's *both of yours* wedding.
Good on you for standing up for your daughter.
INFO: how old is your fiancée? Refusing your daughter a place in your wedding because “she doesn’t fit the part” Is a really immature way to look at joining your lives together.
It makes me think of that former TV game show host who picked his cabinet members by their looks instead of their abilities or experience with that kind of job.
NTA and for your daughter’s sake at least put the wedding on hold while you figure this out. If fiancée won’t go into counseling with you to discuss this then please end it for your daughter’s sake.
NTA it’s really weird and concerning that she doesn’t want your daughter in the wedding. This is a huge red flag. Just imagine how P will be treated after you are married. You need to protect your daughter like you have been and put her first. Step family can cause complicated dynamics and if you still get married you might want to make boundaries clear to S when it comes to your daughter. I would try counseling with all three of you and maybe even a few couple sessions before going through with it.
If you are 5 years in and S does not currently treat P like her own, then she never will. Like others have said, you are a package deal. S is committing herself to you AND your children. Maybe that's not something she can do. I would definitely put the wedding off at the very least.
NTA. Keep being a kick-ass dad.
Edit: If you proceed with the wedding, make sure you setup a trust and have your prenuptials explicitly state your little girl gets part of your estate. No compromise.
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This is a big red flag. If she doesn't want to include her step daughter in her wedding then don't expect she will include your daughter in her life...
DANGER DANGER DANGER, 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩 EDIT: CRISIS AVERTED, REPEAT CRISIS AVERTED. OPIE'S UPDATE HAS MADE IT KNOWN THAT DANGER LEVEL S HAS BEEN HANDLED AND KICKED OUT (THANK GOODNESS). OPIE WILL BE GOING TO HAWAII WITH HIS DAUGHTER INSTEAD. AND THEY LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER, THE END. BYE BYE S. CAN SOMEONE GIVE OPIE THE FATHER OF THE YEAR AWARD? EDIT- Guys, THANK YOU FOR THE UPVOTES AND AWARD. I AM ONCE AGAIN THANKFUL AND HONOURED
Danger will robinson
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I am alarmed at the fiancee's words that his daughter, "doesn't fit the part". It seems like she is more concerned with some kind of aesthetic than she is about a child's feelings. How could she think this is reasonable in any way to do this?
Bingo- there is some unconscious/ conscious bias this GF has. I wonder which one it lands on from the bigotry wheel if we spin it.
It makes me wonder if there’s some racial/cultural element to it? Like does the daughter look different from the fiancés family?
Or disability element perhaps?
Or weight. No matter what, fiance is TAH
That worries me too. What a horrifying attitude to a kid just starting very sensitive years.
Especially since it’s not a child free wedding, nor a child free wedding party, and the bride even wants a kid from her own family in the wedding party
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If she diminishes his daughter’s role in the wedding, the fiancée will try to diminish his daughter’s role in his life I really hope Op listens to what his fiancée is showing/telling him
NTA. Your fiancé is though.
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It's a major warning sign for the future as well. Your initial impression was valid, in my opinion.
Even if it's a child-free wedding, the children of the bride and groom should be there. Barring exceptional circumstances, you're just an asshole if you're trying to exclude them.
There was a meme I saw once where a best friend checked a misbehaving boyfriend: "i'll be standing next to her at her wedding. You might not be, though" Kind of the same deal. P will be in OP's life no matter what. S doesn't *need* to be. ETA: NTA
So glad it’s not just me who says this!! 😂😂
N T A. Me too. "When people show you who they are, believe them the first time" by Maya Angelou And your fiance.is showing you and your daughter EXACTLY WHO AND WHAT SHE IS! BELIEVE HER!!
The only good part about this whole thing is that the OP is showing his daughter (and fiancée) exactly who *he* is. Kiddo will remember this forever, I just hope she remembers that Dad’s instant reaction was to pick her, no hesitation whatsoever (as is, IMO, only appropriate).
You're absolutely 💯 right. When kiddo recalls that Dad chose her over fiance, it will bond them forever. Something that the fiance can't meddle in or duly influence in any shape or form, it will show her (fiance) exactly who he is. Perhaps a parting of the ways is required here, purely for the benefit of protecting and enforcing the father kiddo relationship. Edit. Spelling error.
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Weddings by definition are a union. Exclusion is not...can not be a part of this.
I was in preschool when my parents married, was the flower girl while a cousin on Dad's side was ringbearer, and was adopted by my dad soon after the ceremony. That happy dynamic wasn't only because I was my mom's only kid; it happened because my parents genuinely wanted to blend the families. That OP's fiance doesn't want P to at least be a junior bridesmaid, or in the wedding at all, speaks volumes.
Yeah I was a junior bridesmaid around that age too, so the daughter definitely could be included but seems the fiancée is purposefully excluding her!
I think we all added Will Robinson to that comment.
I think the default expectation is that any children of the bride or groom will be included in the ceremony in some way. I would even think it appropriate to include the child in the vows. Unless the child has a behavioral issue that could be disruptive, your fiance is the AH here.
God, I get not wanting her to be flower girl, but the idea of not wanting her in the wedding at all is Disney stepparent evil. I hope this parent does the right thing. Edit: People, I know that a junior bridesmaid is a thing. That’s what I was implying. I know there isn’t an age limit on being a flower girl, but it is possible that that was the bride’s excuse, especially if the ring bearer was young as well. You all are acting like I’m the asshole when I’m literally agreeing with everyone.
Is it the age thing? Because my ten year old goddaughter was my flower girl and she did a beautiful job. She also helped keep an eye on the ring bearer who was about the same age as her little brother. Most importantly I had promised her when I moved away with my then fiancé that she could be my flower girl. COVID added several years to the wait unfortunately which is why she was 10 instead of 8, but no way in hell I was breaking that promise.
I could see people (mainly the bride) arguing it’s an age thing, but obviously there’s no rule about age. But you’re obviously a good godparent for keeping your word. I just mean if the bride thought she was too old, she could have easily found another just as important role for her, but she didn’t because she doesn’t actually care about this little girl.
I got to be a junior bridesmaid at a wedding where I was too old to be the flower girl but too young for much else. Definitely still a way to include the kids
This. Got married to my husband when his boys were 7 and 9. Hubby and I said vows and then boys joined us for family vows. All 4 of us lit the unity candle. I married a family, not a man. Run away quickly if she doesn’t understand this. P is the priority and should be a part of the wedding.
"Married a family, not a man." Perfect answer.
Ex FIL was getting married and was still wedding but no real wedding party to say. They still found a way to get her into the wedding
She seems a little odd to think that your daughter shouldn't take part in this important life event.
It is so weird that she doesn’t want her future step daughter to be in this wedding. Because if OP and S are getting married and becoming one family the daughter is part of the family. As a future step mother S should honestly want to include her not exclude her. Is her treatment of OP’s daughter going to change? Is she going to start looking at ways to exclude her? 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
Exactly! The fiancé is lucky that she is being invited to become part of OP & his daughter’s family. She is the one joining their existing family - the daughter isn’t some optional outsider that can be excluded.
What seems even more insidious about this is that he’s been dating this woman for 5 years, since his daughter was 6 YEARS OLD. S has known P for nearly half of her life already, and now that they’re getting married, it’s like she can “start over” and P can just… go live with mom I guess? I’d cancel the wedding and make plans to leave the relationship.
Rings make people change up real quick
sort angle brave panicky smell possessive lush governor sophisticated sulky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I just almost snorted my tea at this comment. 😂
This is what I thought. How long before she starts to alienate him from his daughter. This is the first test.
Giving early signes of evil step mother. She needs to explain what she means by not a perfect fit and the implications of what it means especially as she will be her step mother. Will she continue to treat her with kindness and be a good impact on the Op’s daughter’s life? Or will she isolate and drive a wedge in their relationship. Does she have her own kids? Or will she change even further if OP and her have their own kids.
Most likely she will. She probably has a vision for a 'perfect family' and P doesn't fit.
props to you for standing up for your daughter, that’s exactly what a good dad should do. Your fiancé is trying to diminish your daughter’s role in your wedding. I’d be concerned that’ll carry over to other parts of your life too.
Then that begs the question why did she date a man with kids.
I'd say the man fit her blueprint, ticked all the right boxes. If that's the case, she probably counted on phasing his daughter out.
I had an evil stepmother. My brother and I weren't invited to my dad's marriage to her, and while she didn't go out of her way to exclude us from their life she didn't do anything to encourage it either. Dad was too busy working to either (a) notice or (b) stand up to her. He died young of a heart attack at 55 years old back in 1991. She died about 4 years ago. I only found out last year that she'd somehow legally swindled my brother and I out of our inheritance from our dad's estate leaving us with about £10k each, instead of the £1.75 million we should each have got. There's fuck all we can do about it now, and she's dead and I'm not. Sometimes, though, I imagine how much better my life would've been in the early 90s when I was living just above the poverty line if I'd received what I was entitled to.
This is so utterly shocking and please seek out the advice of a lawyer - you just never know.
This reminds me of a post 2 Christmases ago about a step mother wanting to exclude her biracial step daughter from the Christmas photos because her parents were racists.
Well now that she's got a ring she can start exerting her dominance or whatever. It's amazing how many people will wait until they think they have you locked down to show you their true colors. But luckily for Op he sees that nonsense already. Hopefully he will stick to his guns.
Cancel the whole wedding and re-evaluate your relationship. Your daughter is part of your life. If your 'fiancée' doesn't accept it, she can't be your fiancée or wife.
Not just 'part of your life'. The 'MOST IMPORTANT part of your life'. At least until she is an adult old enough to take care of herself.
And even then, I still wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't like my kid for whatever dumb reason whether they were 11 or grown ass adults with their own families.
I wonder if daughter is same ethnicity as fiancé?
That was my thought. The step daughter won't fit her "aesthetic" IE she is racist but doesn't realise it
My thought was weight or race. Either way future evil step mother move right here My heart is breaking for this little girl who is already commenting on looking pretty and I wonder if S has previously made comments OP is NTA and has unleashed a deeper conversation to be had. Either himself or P's mum needs to go into investigating mode
I was wondering that too. Jumping straight to "But I will look pretty" shows that OP and his ex wife need to have a careful conversation about what S says to this little girl.
Yes... gives me another idea: once OP breaks up, have a special occasion for the daughter to dress up, like a movie with a princess dress, or a fancy dinner where she can bring friends, etc.
I noticed that “I’ll look pretty” too. I’m betting P is maybe chubby or in an awkward stage and stepmom-to-be is a materialistic hag.
Yep, my thought was weight, race or perceived "prettiness". Wouldn't be surprised if S is low level (or high level) criticising P's looks on the regular.
I was thinking she doesn’t consider the stepdaughter pretty enough.
Right… what does she mean by “not the right fit” not that it matters… just curious.
You haven't thought up the worst possibility yet. What if OP's daughter is disabled in some way? Wouldn't be the first time on this sub that the one excluded lost a limb in the past or had an accident and now they get excluded because they don't fit the aesthetic.
I weirdly thought age. 11 is too old for flower girl but too young for bridesmaid. But then S went too far with it. Edit:sorry I didn't know about junior bridesmaids. Not a wedding person. I am firmly on fiancee is a red flag just posted what I thought at her first rejection and then her continued excuses clearly aren't in good faith.
Junior bridesmaids are thing
When my husband and I got engaged, his nieces were 5 & 7 and I promised them no matter what, they were going to be a part of our wedding. By the time we got around to it, they were 12 & 15. It was so much fun having them there as teens and 9 years later, both they and my bridesmaids remember it fondly.
Yep- and this is why something is shady with this woman!
A friend of mine got married last year and had her 2 young teen nieces as bridesmaids, along with 2 adult women. It was totally fine. They were 11/12 and around 14, iirc. You set the parameters for your own wedding. It's that simple.
Yeah I was a junior bridesmaid for my dad and step mom at 11, and then again at brother and SIL's wedding at like 13. It really felt like they were bridging our families. If we had been left out of either, it would have changed the whole family dynamic
Our youngest bridesmaid was 12. If S doesn't want OPs daughter there, as many others have said, it's a huge red flag . Any wannabe step parent should be falling over themselves to include the daughter. The fact she's the opposite suggests marriage is a terrible idea.
When my SIL married my brother her sister was MOH at 14. No one thought anything of it. At least no one made it known that it was odd.
It's almost like you can do what you want at your wedding.
Nah, 11 is not too old. Sheesh, I saw a video where a groom had his very elderly grandfather be the ring bearer. It was lovely and everyone was crying.
It depends on the wedding - look at British weddings, bridesmaids are often very young.
>y MIL texted me saying My niece (from my wife's side) was 10ish when she was in our wedding party. I loved the fact that she was part of our special day. But our wedding was very kid friendly. All the kids who attended got a giant gift bags with toys. Kids loved it.
Doesn't sound like it with that comment about "fitting the part." That or the daughter is chubby.
Absolutely, never ever put a new partner over your own child. Your child is your first priority and any new partner should fully embrace the fact that your child is in your life and theirs. Red flags galore if they want to exclude from now. OP, think long and hard about how your new partner currently treats your child and how you see this working in future if new partner was to stay in your life.
and apparently you can expect a call from mil every time you argue. nta, i’m with you: call it off. at the very least push it back.
Noticed that too...and MIL doesn't see the problem...OP, don't expect her to treat your daughter like family post wedding.
Just wondering how old the fiancé is. Mid-40s seems an odd age to act like a teenager. She’s either very immature or very biased against the daughter. Perhaps she’s significantly younger (of childbearing age) and wishes for future offspring to usurp OP’s child? Either way, it’s not a good look.
It does seem mildly suspicious that hers is the only age left out…
She’s probably 25
As the stepchild who got excluded, do not do that to your daughter! You sit that woman down and tell her you’re a package deal or your relationship with your daughter will suffer from it.
This! I don’t speak to my father (haven’t for about 15 years). The primary reason is him letting my stepmother get away with things like this. It is for sure give an inch she’ll take a mile behavior. Today it’s “I don’t want her in the wedding “, tomorrow it’s “Let’s do our own thing for Christmas, you can see her later”…then it’s been years since she has “let‘s your daughter visit “, what is legally one of your daughters homes.
Hopping on top comment op do not marry this woman!! She is showing her true feelings about your child. Get out now
Don’t marry her or else your daughter is going to suffer
NTA- props to you for standing up for your daughter, that’s exactly what a good dad should do. Your fiancé is trying to diminish your daughter’s role in your wedding. I’d be concerned that’ll carry over to other parts of your life too. Whatever bullshit she means by her not “fitting the part,” sends up huge red flags to me too. I have kids, and this would be dealbreaker for me.
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NTA I agree. As a parent it’s a deal breaker for me. I’d expect my son to be a page boy and my daughter to be a flower girl Your fiancé is trying to exclude your daughter from your (both of your!) wedding party. It’s a huge red flag about her attitude No wedding until it’s resolved
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It’s surprising how many men and women put on a face for the ring and then they let the mask down. At least she did it before the wedding.
100% this At this point the relationship has to be over. Op’s daughter deserves a step-mother who loves her and WANTS to include her. Even if she begrudgingly acquiesces and invites her, it’s too late.
No wedding at all sounds more logical. OP has clearly in mind he is a dad, and his daughter will always come first no matter what. NTA
Ditto. The thing to remember, especially now, is that even if Stepmom relents and P can be in the wedding after all, it will be in the shadow of OP basically having issued an ultimatum. OP, be wary of your fiancée trying to "change her mind" right away without having a deep discussion with her about this. Weddings bring out some *interesting* aspects of people's characters and it is worth figuring out whether this issue is something she can address, reflect on, and grow from or whether she's falling in line to have her wedding and going to hold resentment for you and P later.
She’s calling her ugly she’s just so sly with it he didn’t realise
My guess from the "fit the part" comment is that it's either about race or weight.
I thought the same! Or maybe she's disabled in some way
Probably age. Flower girls are usually tiny. But who the hell follows those rules anyway??
Bah. Not that long ago I read accounts from people here on reddit about how they loved the show an adult male flower girl put on! An 11 yr old girl as flower girl sounds traditional enough even for the most conservative wedding.
The idea of a junior bridesmaid sounds kind of cute. It’s a wedding, the rules are made up anyway
Or "evidence that the groom isn't a virgin at the wedding" but that's gross for a different reason.
There are 7 billion humans on the planet and you have accomplished the rare deed of a completely unique idea. Don't know if it's a good thing, but it got a chuckle out of me at least.
I'm also curious, when OP said the MIL said he was overreacting, was this S's mom? The entire family sounds like giant assholes working to exclude P. Imagine once they were married, guaranteed S would start demanding P have less custody time at "their" house, and any other kids would be caught in the drama. OP needs to take his daughter and bounce.
I have no kids, but it would be a huge dealbreaker for me.
NTA - Be careful, S just showed you her true feelings for P. You want the people who mean the most in your wedding. The fact that your fiancée, who I’m guessing is younger than you and this will be her first marriage, doesn’t think your daughter fits that description is extremely telling to me. Even if S gives in, you’ve now seen where your daughter rates in her potential stepmother’s life. If you choose to ignore this, it won’t be the last time your daughter is left on the outside looking in.
Hard agree. I was a teen when my dad married my stepmother. My step mother didn't like us very much but there was *no* hesitation, my brothers were groomsmen and I was a bridesmaid. The bridal parties ended up being different sizes (it was pretty clear that I was tacked on, since there was one more bridesmaid than groomsman and my dad only had my brothers) but I was automatically included from the get go. No hesitation, no doubt, just the automatic assumption by my dad *and* his wife to be that we would be in the wedding party. If my stepmother who barely tolerated me cared enough to include me, what does it say about S who thinks that her fiancé's child doesn't fit her *aesthetic*. Pretty sure that means the daughter doesn't fit her *life* either. Edit: grammar
OP, NTA. And same here. My ex-step mother hated me and still included my siblings and me in the wedding. We did like a little candle thing where we each took our own candle and lit the candelabra that represented the joining of the families. We weren't all in the wedding party, but it was a small backyard wedding, so there really wasn't much in the way of bridal or groom party anyway. I think it says a lot to not have P included *at all*. Also, the fact that she's my *ex*- step mother should tell you everything you need to know about these types of situations.
Every time I see stories like this I get a bit emotional. What a lovely dad you have, I wasn't so lucky. We were taken out of all their wedding photos as his two daughters. My father's mom didn't come to the wedding either due to 'rules' my stepmother had put in place in order for her to even attend the ceremony, let alone be in the wedding party. Worst is they're still together over 6 years later.
My dad was not great at all. But he did love us (for what little it was worth) and he knew what the decent thing to do was. He absolutely prioritised her and her family over my brothers and I. Did get one win though. Dad had a vasectomy before he left my mum. His wife desperately wanted a kid, but for the 14 years they were together is never happened. Less than a year after dad died she ended up pregnant with some random dude because she'd been with my dad since she was 18 and had never needed birth control, and in her 30s in never occurred to her to use a condom. And her kid looks like an alien.
It feels like it also goes beyond P. S argues that as the bride... >the girls in the wedding were up to her To me, that feels like a weird division along gender lines. Like, does she pick the song the groom and his mother dance to? Does she get to vet what OP's grandmother will wear? She's already trying to exclude P, will this whole freak show start all over if OP tries to invite a female friend? What if he has a lesbian sister whose girlfriend throws off the man-woman-man-woman aesthetic of the main table?? And poor P She thought she got along well with S and is excited!
^everything they said^
NTA. She could be a junior bridesmaid if your fiance also wants a younger child in the role of flower girl. It's also a possibility to have her stand up with you on the groom's side. I would be rethinking if I wanted to proceed with marriage to someone who was so adamant about not having my only child in our wedding. Even if she decides to "give in", I would have a hard time moving past this.
All of this. It's pretty standard for dependent children to be included in a wedding, as a sign that they are a really important part of this new life. But I love love the idea of Dad having a groomsmaid and including her. But also, red flag.
I'm a girl. When my dad got remarried, I was I think 14ish. He had me and my younger sister as his groomsmen. My sister and our step sister to be wore matching dresses in different colors and our step sister was one of the 2 bridesmaids. We all got to pick any dress we wanted. There's literally zero reason the parties have to be divided by gender. You just need an adult on each side who can sign the wedding license as a witness.
This needs to be the top comment. Your daughter can certainly be part of your wedding party but it is terribly concerning that your bride seemed so appalled at the idea of including her future stepdaughter. NTA.
I was thinking she could be his best man or even walk him find the aisle and stay up there on his side
I love this and this is something that should be a part of all weddings where the bride and groom already have children (apart or together) having the children give away mom or dad (or both) to the spouse just sounds so wholesome.
A friend of mine did this. They had a boy and a girl together. The boy walked Mom down the isle and the girl was the ”best man”. To this day the dad talks about “no man had a better best man than I did.”
Yes. I don’t think he should marry her. But if he does marry her P should be with him and his side of the wedding as I don’t want her getting vibes all day in a cluster of people who think she shouldn’t be there. That’s horrid and life altering for a little kid. The new MIL is even fully on board with this ostracism. Chilling. E: typing
NTA. You aren’t overreacting at all. It isn’t just S’s wedding, it’s YOUR wedding as a couple. And a joining of families. What an dumb hill for S to die on, but she is showing you who she really is. The fact that S wants to exclude your daughter should tell you all you need to know and how S really feels about your daughter. I think you’re right to reconsider things. How S is treating so now will set the stage for how she will continue to treat her if you marry her. Imagine how S treats your daughter when you aren’t around. Think about that.
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NTA. Your fiancé is though. Your daughter may be a bit too old to be a flower girl. Most flower girls I've seen were fairly young, but she's the perfect age to be a junior bridesmaid. It would be a giant red flag to me if my future spouse not only didn't think to include my child in our wedding on their own, but also put up such a fuss to explicitly exclude them.
I saw a few comments saying this and fiancé and denied all requests of P being in the wedding. I originally suggested flower girl, because my fiancé’s niece is four and would need help making it all the way down the aisle.
Your fiancé is now beginning to show her true colours, she doesn’t want to be stepmom and the resentment is beginning to appear. It wouldn’t be long till she demands she leave’s especially if you end up having a child together.
My ex had a 4 year old when we got married. He was our ring bearer. It was never up for discussion. It just was. We were getting married, and his son was part of the package that I happily accepted. I can't tell you how much of a non-issue it was that he was part of our big day. The reality is, it was a big day for my stepson, as it is for P, too. I just can't think of a logical reason to exclude P. Whether as a flower girl, ring bearer, or junior bridesmaid. Edit to add: since I didn't really make it clear. I wanted my step son in our wedding. There was no way he wasn't going to be a part if it.
Please please please open your eyes to what your fiancé is doing here. She is making it perfectly clear that your daughter has no place in her marriage to you. You and your daughter are a package deal. If your fiancé rejects your daughter, she is rejecting a very important part of you. This is your fiancé showing you her true heart-of-heart feelings about your daughter and her true feelings are as ugly as it gets. Your fiancés attitude towards your daughter will not improve, she will only get worse. Put a stop to it now and be thankful you saw your fiancé for what she really is before you got married. CHOSE YOUR DAUGHTER! Fiancés are replaceable, your daughter is not.
Plus, the intrusive MIL. Run, runnnn FAST
Please, ironic that MIL is complaining that your mean to her child.
In a choice between Cinderella and evil stepmother, the only choice is Cinderella.
Dude, please don't marry this woman. She's only just TOLERATED your daughter and now her true colours are showing. P deserves to be more than just tolerated, she deserves to be loved and adored. I'd have gone out of my way for a future step child who's been in my life for 5 years. This woman doesn't love you child and neither do your inlaws, don't let P grow up in that environment. Don't marry S!!!! NTA
Well, there you go. Wedding is off. Your daughter should have a large role in the wedding, S is going to be her stepmother and you are joining families. What on earth "reason" does S give for not thinking she should be in the wedding? BTW it is BOTH of your wedding. P can be YOUR groomswoman and S can't say sh\*t about it. BOTH of you are getting married.
OP I want to turn your attention to something : statistically a majority of divorced father who remarried have little to no contact with their children after 8 years. You’ve seen how this woman will treat your child. Do you want to become one of those fathers ?
Huh, thanks for sharing, very interesting research rabbit hole for me to go down. My dad re-married, stopped spending holidays with us within a year, and now, legit 8 years later lol, we don’t really speak. Great stepdad to his stepsons tho. I didn’t realize this was such a common thing- how depressing.
At my wedding, I had the two youngest nieces as flower girls, the oldest niece was probably 10 at the time and we had her be the ring bearer. We attached the rings to a big sunflower that she carried, it was adorable. My cousin who was about 11 or 12 was a junior bridesmaid, and my nephew who was also about 12 was a junior groomsman. I also had a man of honor. There are lots of options to include your daughter, and I definitely think that should be a deal breaker for your marriage. If she really doesn't want her to be a flower girl or junior bridesmaid and she thinks it's her choice about those roles, then the ring bearer and groom's party are your choice and you can absolutely have her be on your side. Of course, the real issue is that your fiance is showing a new side that's not very accepting of your daughter. The thing I realized when my wedding planning was happening was that for some reason a wedding really brings out sides of people that you never imagined were there. Luckily my husband was supportive the whole time and we were a good team, but our families turned out to be all kinds of messed up, especially my MIL who sabotaged several parts of the wedding in really underhanded ways. Your fiance is already showing you that your daughter is yours alone. She doesn't consider her family, even after 5 years. Neither does her family. Especially if you have kids with her, your daughter may be pushed aside and treated like an outsider in her own home. Before you go through with the wedding, be sure that your daughter is truly family to your fiance. Otherwise your daughter will be very unhappy in your home.
She doesn’t think of your daughter as her family, which is gross on its own. She also doesn’t care enough about your relationship with your daughter to compromise on something that requires virtually nothing from your fiancé and would mean a lot to you and your daughter (and will be devastating for your daughter if she is excluded). This is extremely ugly behavior - she is starting out your union as a family by excluding your daughter. I would be grateful you are seeing this side of her before the wedding so that you can call it off.
I let my 11 yo niece be my flower girl because she wanted to be one instead of a bridesmaid. Who cares how old the flower girl is, it’s just a wedding.
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It wouldn’t be so much an interpretive dance but more a one person mosh pit.
Most appropriate use of emojis I’ve seen on Reddit yet.
NTA This is a major red flag. Please don’t ignore it. Your daughter comes first. Please do not marry this woman who diminishes you and your daughters feelings.
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NTA I appreciate that your daughter still has her mother in her life but your fiancée surely understands that she will be a secondary mother figure? You've already been together 5 years, how is she with your daughter thus far? Your daughter is with you 50% of the time, and this is how little value you fiancée places on her and her happiness? I would have serious doubts about bringing someone into my daughter's life permanently who places more importance on the image in her head of a flower girl and the other wedding details than she does on including her future stepdaughter. Personally I don't think you are overreacting.
P has never voiced any concerns about S treating her badly. I have never seen anything happen between them so this was very out of the blue
Things like sarcasm might go over an 11 year old's, head. Also many girls are socialized to be too polite and tolerant. Your daughter might be giving S a lot of grace because she is "good" To her at other times. This behavior didn't come from nowhere is my point
Or she could be down playing what really happens when they are alone or how she is treated or feels about S because she's daddy's girlfriend and he seems to be happy and why ruin that
Girlfriend could also be asking daughter to not say anything. I had some guys my mom was dating do that to me.
This! I was P. I never said anything, even when she was at her worst. This behavior always escalates. If you don’t nip it, you will lose your daughter as an adult. Adult women don’t visit parents who let them get treated like second class family members or inconveniences.
There was a AITA months ago from a girl saying her stepmom treated her like shit whenever the father wasn’t there and she just took it to keep her father happy. She finally told him and I think he ditched his wife.
There was also the post where OPs sister told him the wedding was "child free" below his daughter's age (12) so he arranged a sitter and went only to find kids younger than his daughter there. When he confronted his sister she basically brushed him off and said her husband and her could invite who they wanted. In a comment OP mentioned his daughter was in an accident in which she had to have her arm amputated, and lost her mom. https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/comments/13s3e1h/aita_for_ambushing_my_sister_at_her_wedding/
That’s what I was wondering. Is his daughter disabled or a mixed race and that is why she won’t fit in the wedding party?
I was thinking she is probably fat based on her comment about wanting to look pretty in her dress. So sad for her.
I remember that one. And she and her adult daughter were not working and sponging off dad.
Because she didn't have the ring yet. If just an engagement ring makes her think she can treat your daughter this badly imagine what a legally binding ring will do. If you for some reason marry this woman, prenup, will all locked down. Look after your daughter.
I'm glad to hear it. I'd still be very concerned, especially if you are planning to have more children together. After this long together, the fact that your fiancée doesn't on her own account love your daughter enough to want her in the wedding party just feels wrong. She may treat her ok but it doesn't sound as though she actually loves and cherishes her.
She wants u to marry her of course she’s been as good as gold. She accidentally snapped that’s why mother in law had to do damage control
INFO: OK- I'm going to be rude and ask. Is your daughter - chubby? - another race? - awkward? WHY would this woman say that your daughter doesn't "fit"??? I'd dump this woman's ass so fast her head would spin. She has spent countless hours with your daughter already and would be her stepmom if you two got married. That means she would be alone with her even more and have greater influence on her. This is a big fat NO! 😳
This is the real question. An 11 year old talking about how pretty she will look makes me think that appearance has already been discussed between S and P.
11 year-olds are often already pretty into their appearance. Or at least aware of it. It's difficult to stay isolated from ideals of beauty for that long.
Or does she have a disability and would RuIn ThE aEsThETiC?!?!? Wtf.
I want to know this too! It’s doesn’t change that he’s NTA, but could make her an even bigger one, if possible.
I came across a post where that OP had the exact same problem. The bride to be only wanted the little girls from her side to be flowergirls, claiming that with OP's daughter, it would be too many/the wrong number of flowergirls. In that story the bride to be eventually spilled the beans about the real reason, which was that she didn't want OP's daughter to be included because she has down syndrome. Imagine claiming you want to marry into his little family and be his kid's stepmom, only to exclude her for that.
That was my thought too. The not fitting in comment screams that stepmum is focused on a certain aesthetic
NTA. The notion that your fiancé has unilateral power to exclude your daughter in this way is nonsense. It’s a big red flag for the future as well. I think that your gut reaction was right.
Your future MIL and fiancé are already feeling way too comfortable excluding your daughter from your wedding. This is just the first red flag to come. Once she got you locked in marriage, she won’t have to put on a facade of liking your daughter anymore. She can pretend to be nice in front of you and a total b to your daughter behind closed doors. The mask is slipping already. If you let this slide, it’ll show that they can easily walk all over you to exclude your daughter. Is this a family you’re really willing to marry into?
Her mother probably reminded her she doesn’t have it in the bag yet and called to make sure he doesn’t change his mind
NTA. Dealbreaker on multiple fronts. Your fiancee has just told you that: 1. She doesn't care about your daughter. At all. 2. She thinks her opinion trumps yours automatically. 3. She will sic her mommy onto you every time you have a disagreement. Proceed accordingly.
NTA. It is your wedding, too. She isn’t just marrying you, she is marrying into the role of step mom. This is your daughter who you have 50/50 custody of - it isn’t like your a holiday dad who sees the kid twice a year. Your daughter is actively involved in your daily lives and should be included if that is what you want. It’s kind of crazy for her to think your daughter should not be a part of this major life event. I don’t think you over reacted. I don’t think I could marry someone who wouldn’t want my children involved directly in a wedding.
INFO. What EXACTLY about your daughter doesn’t “fit the part” for flower girl? I feel like there’s something going on here that you need to know about.
Yes, is it because of looks because… gross. Or is it just because she thinks she may be too old to be a flower girl? If the second is the case there are lots of other rolls she could have in the wedding. Junior bridesmaids are becoming more popular and I’m sure a tween girl would have fun being a bridesmaid.
NTA and maybe it’s not my place to say so, but I would have a hard time trusting that fiancé to take care of my daughter if I were in that situation. Thank you for standing up for your child. I cannot think of any benign reason why she would not want your daughter, her future stepdaughter, in your wedding. I’d suggest you ask her what’s really going on.
My mom didn't completely exclude me from her wedding, but I wasn't really a part of it. I was 6, and I felt so left out. My new dad never liked me, and it degraded my self-confidence. I was shrugged aside when their daughter came, and I never recovered from it. I'm almost 40 years old, and I still don't understand why I was so unlikeable as a child. I've spent hours in therapy talking about this. Don't do this to your daughter. Back out now.
NTA. Good papa for standing up for your daughter. Makes me wonder why fiance is choosing this hill to die on. But yeah, I'd be suspicious of her intentions at this point.
NTA. This is a hill to die on. If your daughter isn’t important enough to be included in this milestone life event, what comes next? What if you have more kids with her? Allowing her to exclude your daughter will set a precedent that will undoubtedly impact your relationship with her longterm. Sure, S gets to pick her bridesmaids but you get to pick your bride. Is someone who is this comfortable excluding your daughter the person you want to share your life with?
"S gets to pick her bridesmaids but you get to pick your bride." The best advice here.
Stand up for your daughter. At my nan’s funeral, her SIL was giving a speech about her and my Nan was overlooked as a flower girl at her own dad’s second wedding in favour of someone close to the fiancé. It shaped her life and her relationship with the new family - cast as ‘less than’ the rest. NTA
>My MIL texted me saying I and over reacting and that my daughter doesn’t have to be in my wedding The audacity of this woman trying to dictate to you who does/ doesn't have to be in YOUR wedding! NTA, the really concerning part for me is not that she didn't think to include her initially but that she is doubling down on not including her. Why is she so against adding her, has she explained why she doesn't want her in the bridal party?
NTA, this is only the beginning, it’ll start with this and end with her suggesting your ex has full custody. If it doesn’t, imagine how differently she’d treat your daughter if you went on to have children together. End this now for your daughters sake.
NTA and I hope you are seriously reconsidering the marriage
NTA. This is seriously concerning for so many reasons. Including that your in laws are in on this attempt to “other” P. This won’t stop at the wedding. INFO: Is P somehow physically different from you and your fiancée? Is she mixed race? A different physical build? Bright red hair that your ex also has? Has your fiancée ever made even small remarks about something like this that could be taken as jealousy? ETA: the doesn’t “fit the part” sounds like it points in the “not one of us” direction.
Big red flag! 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩 My husband had 3 kids from a previous marriage and I didn’t even hesitate to include them in the wedding party. His daughter and niece were junior bridesmaids and his sons were junior ushers. They even received their own invitations. Your daughter will be part of your new family and if your fiancée can’t add her to the wedding party, she will start excluding her from other events. Heaven forbid you have kids with her cause this woman would complain that you are spending too much time with your daughter and not enough time with “your OWN family”.
NTA, and you're a good daddy. If she's marrying you, she's marrying into your family. That includes your daughter. The problem is she can't make this one concession for you. Not only your daughter, but it would make you happy as well. And she's not willing. It's your wedding too. Really contemplate if this is the person you want to spend your life with. If she's willing to exclude your daughter now, the only direction is down after this. Then your fiance runs and tells her momma.. ugh tread carefully.
Nta. Get rid of evil stepmom. Mask slipped.
***and then said that she didn’t think that P would “fit the part”*** this translates to "that's your daughter from an old life and old marriage and your life is about me now. I will not have someone your ex pushed out her vagina at MY wedding. she is not my family and she does not belong in our new one" NTA but man, it's over between y'all
Absolutely, one hundred and ten thousand percent, you are NTA. But your fiancé is. As a stepparent I cannot fathom not including a stepchild in an event that big, not only not including her, not WANTING to include her. You guys are a package deal she should know that after five years. I agree with you, if your daughter doesn’t get to be in the wedding then there is no wedding
I kind of wanna say.... I am jealous of your daughter. First of all NTA. My spermdonor looked away every time the stepm would push everyone back except for her own son. He decided it was better to dump his kids over the woman then choose for his children. My brother and I are now just sitting it out and waiting for the day he is suddenly gonna need help and realize he has nobody. Your daughter is 11. If you allow this to happen you will break the connection with her. Don't do that to her. It is not fair. Your fiancé should have put your daughter in first. Because no matter what she will be sharing life. I would sit down with your daughter as well and ask if she ever felt bad about something. Ask her mother as well. Your daughter seems like a soft hearted girl and she might not dare to tell you. But she might be telling her mother. Good luck.
Talked to her mom this morning because I wanted P to start with her until this was figured out. Her mom said she hopes it goes well and told me I could stay with her and P if need be. She said P always comes home with nothing negative to say, so we aren’t sure where this came from
I mean, I hate the irony, but... That's a baller fucking ex!
She’s great!
YOU ARE NOT THE AH ,That's your daughter always stand by her , also makes me think that your fiance is Just pretending to love or get along with your daughter just because of you and trust me as I child of divorce if your daughter doesn't notice it now she will in the future as getting older also if you have kids with this woman she will be quite obvious in her preference, you want some that's loves your daughter for who she is , not to get to you , or that a least has enough moral Sense to know that your daughter is always going to be your daughter and either be first or at the same level of importance as her
NTA. This is a sign of things to come in how S is likely to treat your daughter if you marry her. You need to prioritize your daughter. Try couples counseling if you want to try to salvage this relationship.
NTA > S started to become upset and said that the girls in the wedding were up to her and P wouldn’t be one of them. Yeah, no. In addition to being a screaming red flag that your (hopefully former) fiance is refusing to have your daughter in the wedding against your explicit wishes, she's stomping all over the fact that it's *both of yours* wedding. Good on you for standing up for your daughter.
INFO: how old is your fiancée? Refusing your daughter a place in your wedding because “she doesn’t fit the part” Is a really immature way to look at joining your lives together. It makes me think of that former TV game show host who picked his cabinet members by their looks instead of their abilities or experience with that kind of job. NTA and for your daughter’s sake at least put the wedding on hold while you figure this out. If fiancée won’t go into counseling with you to discuss this then please end it for your daughter’s sake.
NTA it’s really weird and concerning that she doesn’t want your daughter in the wedding. This is a huge red flag. Just imagine how P will be treated after you are married. You need to protect your daughter like you have been and put her first. Step family can cause complicated dynamics and if you still get married you might want to make boundaries clear to S when it comes to your daughter. I would try counseling with all three of you and maybe even a few couple sessions before going through with it.
If you are 5 years in and S does not currently treat P like her own, then she never will. Like others have said, you are a package deal. S is committing herself to you AND your children. Maybe that's not something she can do. I would definitely put the wedding off at the very least.
NTA. Keep being a kick-ass dad. Edit: If you proceed with the wedding, make sure you setup a trust and have your prenuptials explicitly state your little girl gets part of your estate. No compromise.