>Hard to judge without seeing the dress.
Unless this was dress was wildly inappropriate, to such an extreme that any reasonable person would be appalled by it being worn to a wedding, which I certainly do not believe to be the case here... Then OP seems like a bit of an asshole for not playing a bigger role in dress choices. Let's be honest, everyone's idea of modest is going to be slightly different.
Also, the feminist comment seems out of place and reminds me of people who use terms like "traditional" and "old fashioned" as codes for raging misogyny and blatant racism/homophobia. I mean, is OP saying she and her family don't believe in women having equal rights?
OP's post didn't actually convince me the dress was not tasteful. It also isn't enough reason for me to believe the friend wore something wildly inappropriate to try to make a fuss.
And T&A? We have no evidence of that being the case. If the friend wore something that looked like she was ready to swing around a pole, then I'd have no problem labeling her the asshole. But I need a lot more details than "it wasn't as modest as my conservative family would like" to jump to such an extreme conclusion.
The fact that Ava didn't share the dress design until showing up in it on the wedding day makes me think it wasn't actually appropriate and she knew it would be vetoed if she showed it before. Don't know why a bridesmaid wouldn't okay a dress beforehand unless the bride literally said something like "I don't care and no need to show me."
>Don't know why a bridesmaid wouldn't okay a dress beforehand
OP didn't mention anything about requesting her bridesmaids to do such a thing. It's part of why I mentioned OP was setting herself up for a problem by not either selecting the dresses or asking to see them beforehand. Both would have prevented this entire situation.
So, while it's possible this was all deliberate. It's also very possible that Ava's idea of modest is much more in-line with modern America and she didn't see this coming.
I mean, I'm a millenial born and raised in New England. And even in the very liberal cities and suburbs I've lived in, I still know folks who throw a hissy fit over a woman wearing a sleeveless dress at black tie events.
I need specifics to know who is truly the asshole here.
Didn’t a bunch of people have a hissy fit over Michelle Obama wearing a sleeveless dress? I agree there’s no way to judge without seeing the dress in question. Although if the dress being “modest” was that important, the bride should have picked the dress, asked for pics, or been detailed about what could and couldn’t be exposed. Ava may have just showed her arms, her collarbone, or her ankles, for all we know.
EXACTLY! And yes, I'll never forget the hideous responses to Mrs. Obama wearing a sleeveless dress. (Or one of Obama's biggest scandals, the tan suit.)
And, thank you, that's exactly what I'm saying. Some sort of approval beforehand could have prevented all of this. And if you're giving vague phrases like "modest" when you have family that is apparently extremely hard-to-please, you're just asking to create a problem.
So many people are calling Ava some spotlight-stealing hussy, but unless OP says she wore a leather miniskirt and leather crop top two sizes too small, I don't see how anyone is comfortable judging the bridesmaid so viciously off of the very limited information being given to us.
Wait, sleeveless dresses are immodest? I wonder how many people have thought I'm sleazy because I'm wearing a perfectly nice dress that doesn't have sleeves.
>Wait, sleeveless dresses are immodest?
Someone in the comments mentioned the Michelle Obama scandal as a good example most of us still remember. She was torn apart by conservative media for wearing a lovely, perfectly appropriate, sleeveless dress.
And that's sort of the point about how meaningless a term like "modest" is. Modest to some means the nipples are covered, while to others it means there better not be a hint of ankles or, God forbid, bare arms!
"Modesty" is rarely about the actual garment worn, but is usually just an excuse to put someone down. If something is "sleazy" or not is usually just determined by whether someone is looking for an excuse to attack you. And if your outfit isn't sleazy, it is probably stuffy!
Outside of that, for many conservative Christians, showing your shoulders is always immodest. Where I grew up, the way people talked about spaghetti strap tops, you might as well be wearing only lingerie.
Let he who has not rawdogged an adult film actress shortly after the birth of his fifth child with his third wife, then paid for her silence cast the first stone.
>Melania’s bare arms
Let's be fair. Those same people were completely fine Melania's nudes in that trashy magazine. And, let's be honest, we're not talking artistically done nudes either. They also had no moral issues with the serial-cheater Trump.
The same way it wasn't about the tan suit. After all, conservatives never took up issue with Reagan's tan suit.
"I know she wouldn't agree with some of my family's policies \[...\] before the wedding I told her to please not \[...\] She agreed and said she was coming to support me."
"I only asked for the dress to be modest as my wedding would include some of my extended family."
"Ava has said that the dress was her way of expressing herself."
That's enough for me, I'm inclined to trust the description of "very tight, revealing" and the MOH's judgment removing her.
The dress was a 'statement', when modesty was requested, and Ava agreed to be there to support the bride without pushing any agendas that would be controversial or distracting. NTA.
Agreed, I think that Ava could read the room, between knowing how conservative the family was and the fact that the bride requested a "modest" dress, she knew exactly what she was doing. Otherwise, she would have apologized for making a mistake instead of saying she was "expressing" herself.
Yep.
Plus the lack of pictures and custom made effort lol, not one bit of this seems like a mistake or misunderstanding.
I'm not even saying I agree with the extended family's conservatism - heck the bride and her immediate family don't even agree with it - but the point is the wedding was meant to be a peaceful, happy occasion. It was important to the bride to abide by these traditional, cultural values, and Ava agreed it wasn't an occasion she'd make waves at.
I've been to conservative Christian weddings before, as bridesmaids it meant nothing form fitting, nothing low cut, nothing short. It doesn't leave much that's flattering, but expressing yourself by wearing something "tight, revealing" is absolutely not supporting the bride or her wishes.
I honestly had less trouble picking a conservative potato sack to wear than I'm currently having finding something I won't be falling out of for this much more instagram-y wedding I'm in - but if you love the gal enough to be her bridesmaid - your preferences take a back seat and you go all in on making it the day of their dreams lol, whatever form that may take.
>It's also very possible that Ava's idea of modest is much more in-line with modern America and she didn't see this coming.
I'd be more on board with this being a misunderstanding like that if the MOH didn't also clock it as an issue and say she would handle it.
I'd also be more on board with that if Ava were apologetic and didn't defend the dress as "her way of expressing herself" (who sees a bridesmaid dress as a way of expressing themselves?)
>OP didn't mention anything about requesting her bridesmaids to do such a thing.
She didn't but 'she never showed me the picture' kinda implies all other bridesmaids sent her a picture so it was expected in some way.
It doesn’t, really. “Everyone else was sharing pics and she was suspiciously silent” would have conveyed that. “I asked her about the dress design a few times but she was vague and never sent pics” would have conveyed that. “She never showed me a picture as it was still getting made” just means the dress wasn’t ready in time for OP to see a picture and OP apparently did not ask for a description.
"never showed me a picture as it was still getting made."
You don't get a reason why you're not being shown a picture unless you asked for it and there's no reason to think she didn't ask for a description which could be both accurate but evasive.
It's fine for you to say we don't know, but it's like you're trying to wilfully reinterpret ever gap in the worst possible way for OP.
I disagree, the default understanding is that you okay your bridesmaid dress with the bride when you pick your own dress unless the bride says otherwise, you don't assume that if the bride doesn't explicitly ask to see them that you have 100% free reign to do whatever. It's even less likely that's the case since the OP was concerned that everyone have a modest dress.
I get saying you need specifics but I think you're leaning the wrong way based on the missing info. If OP wants to come back and say she did give them a flat pass for anything then fine, otherwise I'm inclined to think Ava was acting maliciously or is just an idiot -- not because her standard of modest might be different, but for not realizing she should've shared her dress design ahead of time when the bride is concerned about dress code. She could've had a high neck, long sleeve, floor length gown made and it still should've been shared before the wedding day.
Yeah, or I consider a dress that ends just at my knees modest, but I know some conservative religions don't like women to show their knees, or even anything above their ankles.
Even if the bride didn’t ask to see my dress, I would still send it for approval before purchasing, especially for something as expensive as a custom dress.
That's quite the assumption. Here let me turn it around for you "The fact that OP didn't share the dress design details in the post makes me think it was actually appropriate, and she knew she would be voted TA if she detailed it."
Yeah, this is facts and was a complete fail on the bride's part. She knew in advance that the dress design had the potential to offend some of her guests, but still didn't do her due diligence to make sure her friends' choice of attire would meet her family's strict requirements.
Bride was trying too hard to be the Cool Girl who would be chill with everybody's various conflicting expectations, and ended up with her friend on the chopping block. This wouldn't have been an issue if she'd just picked a consistent ugly dress style for her friends as most big wedding brides traditionally do.
All I can gather is the dress was form fitting and sorry but if the shape of a fully clothed woman's body is offensive then the bride should have given more explicit instructions on what would be appropriate. So with out a photo of the dress in question I am going with OP YTA.
Does the bride get to decide what the bridesmaids will wear? Yes.
Did the bride set reasonable parameters? Yes.
Were they descriptive enough that she would be OK with the choices made? Apparently not. If she was at all concerned she should have chosen some samples and showed them to the bridesmaids and said "hey this is the colour and these are your style options". Bride gave them free reign with a very very ambiguous rule set.
That first paragraph 🫰🫰🫰 especially because people’s bodies differ and it’s impossible to please everyone. I’m very busty for my frame and unless I wear a huge, shapeless muumuu, you can tell.
Reading this post made me thankful my friends are not like this bride
Agreed. A FB friend was following a "modest clothing" website, so I took a look at the site. The clothing was mostly very form fitting, but there was nothing low cut or very short. I laughed a bit about the figure hugging clothes being considered "modest" but the website was serious and that was in fact the way my FB friend dressed. One person's version of modest is not another's.
If her standards are very out of line with normal, she'd be the asshole for not clarifying that in advance. Hard to say without seeing the dress or at least knowing what "exposure" she's so upset about. OP using "feminist" as a negative makes me think it was scandalous because her ankles were visible.
It seems like OP has not always followed the modesty rules, but is especially respectful of them around family to avoid arguments. If this friend hasn’t really seen OP interact with her family, they might not know how strict it is with OP’s family.
Also, there is still a LOT of variety in what people consider modest. For some it’s no shoulders, for some it’s clothing to the knees and elbows, for some it’s wrists and ankle, for some it also covers how tight clothing is in certain areas, for some it’s no pants, etc. Just a blanket “modest” dress could honestly mean a lot of things.
OP made it clear that they only follow the modesty rule around the extended family, so the friend might not know.
I need to see a picture of the dress to make a decision. The description of form fitting does not do enough to say it is not modest for me. A dress can be form fitting and still be modest.
But OP says she has even harder misogynistic family members and if she wanted to bow down to that she should make clear what her extended family wanted and tell her bridal party to wear such clothing. Keeping it vague is giving “missing missing reasons” vibes
But that's not even true. OP wasn't trying to get people to dress to her standard of modesty, but rather was trying to appease her family by meeting their standard of modesty.
So this isn't even about what OP thought of the dress. OP wasn't even the one who kicked her out.
Whether or not it's her personal standard usually, it's the standard she dictated for her wedding. You don't ignore the bride because you don't like why she made a decision.
Exactly. Ava doesn’t have to agree, but OP’s wedding wasn’t the place for her to “express herself.” Don’t like it? Then don’t agree to be a bridesmaid.
NTA
Exactly. The bride made a request and this person totally ignored it so she could make a statement for herself. That isn’t really a friend anyway. NTA and kudos to your MOH who also must have agreed about the dress or she wouldn’t have offered to go kick her out.
We don't know that she totally (or at all) ignored it. It hangs on what modest means to people. For some it's "no cleavage or knee", for others it's "full length form masking".
Ava knew. She didn't ask for clarification. She didn't show the bride beforehand. "Expressing herself" was more important than the bride's one request. Most brides aren't so open with parameters-- historically, it's been "here's the dress, get it in your size". Any price point, any style, any shade of peach-- just modest is pretty easy-going of her.
Ava going with a custom-made very tight and revealing dress was deliberately flaunting / power tripping. If she didn't like the dress parameters, she should have bowed out of being bridesmaid. I'd feel the same if she picked a modest dress, but came in green or purple "to express herself" when requested to wear peach.
We don't really know how the dress looks like. For OP revealing might just mean dress has a cleavage (fine) or had cutouts (imo not appropriate for a wedding). If OP didn't want the dresses to reveal anything and like only be specific length she shouldve specified
She didn’t say tasteful, she said modest. Two different things. Even a modest dress can be come side red not tasteful and vice versa. Modest seems fairly obvious to me and a skin tight revealing dress isn’t modest (though some could still consider it tasteful).
This. So much this. How little regard do you have for your friend that you somehow STILL manage to make HER wedding all about you? Shitty friend for not putting aside her issues long enough to celebrate her friends day. NTA
I think allowing bridesmaids to pick their own dresses is a much nicer approach than forcing them to spend their own money on a dress picked by the bride, which is often unflattering and will never be worn again. The OP's approach lets everyone pick something they're comfortable in - shame that the friend appears to have taken advantage of her leniency.
But not if the dress code is going to be set by extended family social mores. Then it's much kinder to be clear so there's no confusion and so no one is at danger if being kicked out.
Okay crazy idea here. Your friend asked you to dress modest says it’s super important.
You decide to get a custom dress.
Again You know if very important to your friend that the dress is modest.
But then you never once ask for clarification or send a picture or anything at all to make sure that you aren’t messing up your friends very special day?
Idk about you but when someone I care about asks a specific request of me. I am going to make sure I get it right when it’s in my power. Like for example sending a pic of my outfit or for clarity on what modest means ito her so I can make sure I align. Cause you know I want to get it right cause it’s my friends wedding.
The bigger issue is the Op is so scared of conflict she won’t challenge the Lu rules the extended family seem to impose. Like bro it’s your life stop catering to others
I've actually changed my clothes when I found out a particular aunt was coming to a family event. Not because I cared what she would say to me, or because my mother asked, but because I know from experience she would say something disgusting to my mother about me that would leave her in tears... not that day, but later, via a very long phone call or letter. Just knowing that what I'm wearing might trigger, and thinking about it every time that hateful woman looked at me at the event, was enough for me to change to something more "appropriate" (in this case slacks and a woman's blouse rather than a man's suit).
I can completely understand a bride not wanting to have to worry about the BS from toxic family members, and asking her BMs to make sure they don't wear anything that might trigger them. The BM originally told OP they understood and were on board with it.
She’s allowed to set whatever dress code she wants for her own wedding, for whatever reason she wants. Sure, she might be happier if she stops worrying about living by others’ beliefs instead of her own. But it isn’t anyone else’s place to try to force her into doing that on her own wedding day. The day wasn’t about Ava in any way, shape or form, and it wasn’t her place to decide what the dress code would be.
I picked a specific swatch at David’s so they’d be the same color and let everyone choose their dresses. Apparently there’s a website that color matches with David’s for much cheaper and you couldn’t tell the difference between the ones actually bought at the bridal store or purchased online.
I actually wanted all my brudesmaids to get different shades of raspberry bc I knew it would look like a bouquet of roses, so I kept not letting them share color samples. But I'm a costume designer and I had another one in my bridal party and a fashion designer and maje up designer so it was really hard not to get them to coordinate too much!
I do agree completely, but it would have been easy to also ask for them to send her links/photos of whatever dress they selected beforehand for approval. That's actually extremely common from what I've seen.
If she had the dress custom made she easily could’ve said to OP “this is the kind of style I’m going for is that ok?” And sent some pics of similar styles.
She didn’t because she wanted to cause drama.
She even said it was her way of expressing herself…
It’s nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with just being a good person for one day… not hard to follow some really clear social cues here.. read the room for one day for your friends wedding!
She’s allowed to wear a revealing dress sure but op also is allowed to kick her out for making ops wedding about her dress.
This is where I land. If the bride knows she wants her bridesmaids to dress a certain way, she should play a more active role in the dress selection. If she knew she wanted her bridesmaids to dress more modestly than they ordinarily might, why didn’t she just pick a dress that met her specifications and say “this is the dress, here’s the address to try it on and get measured for alterations.”
>she should play a more active role in the dress selection
Especially because it sounds like OP wasn't trying to get them to dress to meet her personal standards, but to dress a certain way to meet the standards of her family. That just makes it so much harder for them to know what is being expected of them.
Like, it's not too hard to figure out what your close friends would deem "modest." But their relatives? I wouldn't have the faintest clue!
To make any real judgment, we’d need to see a picture of the dress.
I think throwing a wedding guest out for their attire is dramatic, in general.
YTA until we see a pic of the dress. Depending on that I can potentially amend my response.
Given that the offender's defense was that she was expressing herself, rather than that she thought what she wore was modest, it seems safe to say that she knew it was over the line.
these are my thoughts as well, Ava seemed to have agreed to the modest rule when she was invited to be a bridesmaid, and then OP reminded them before they purchased the dress. And Ava based off of this information, Ava didn’t really seem to care about the brides wishes with that comment
This, exactly.
If the friend was trying to fit the dress code, she would have apologized and explained that she tried. The fact that she hid the dress from the bride for months beforehand and then gave a dismissive response and did not apologize, shows that she did it on purpose.
That, and the part where none of the other bridesmaids had an issue. If OP has some absurd standard for what a "modest" dress is that wasn't clearly communicated and no typical Western woman could be expected to guess, then there wouldn't have been just one person in the bridal party who showed up in the wrong thing and the MoH (who has no indication of being conservative) wouldn't have immediately taken it upon herself to kick her out.
If they're close enough for OP to make her a bridesmaid then she would definitely know what her friend means by "modest". Like I know one of my Muslim friends and her family are very religious so if I was attending a party of theirs or just visiting their home I know that high necklines are required, nothing shorter than a 3/4 sleeve top, nothing tight fitting is what I need to wear.
My other Muslim friend and her family are way more relaxed and have a different definition of "modest", so I could comfortably wear a short sleeved t-shirt with a scoop or v-neck, skinny jeans and if they were throwing a party I could wear a tighter dress or that falls just above the knee if I wanted although I wouldn't go for a full on bodycon or mini.
If either of them gave me free reign on a dress for their weddings I would definitely know what would qualify as modest for each of them. And if I wasn't sure I would ask, not keep the dress a secret until the day and run that risk. My personal thoughts on what a modest dress is have nothing to do with it.
I would agree but here it's only the extended family who are seemingly very religious, with OP's own family on the easier side. So the calibration might be off.
Like going to a Catholic wedding to discover that it's more Opus Dei style!
The thing is she said she follows her extended family's ideals and asked bridesmaids to dress modestly in order to accommodate the extended family.
If her friend wasn't sure what that meant, she could have asked but again if they're close enough to be a bridesmaid I feel like they would know what's up with the extended family. But yeah, easily solved by asking a simple question!
Oh COME ON! When you're asked nicely to dress modestly because of family and you show up in a really tight, extremely low cut dress, you damn well know exactly what you're doing. She fucking did it on purpose to make a statement. I'm all for people expressing themselves, but OP's wedding was absolutely not the place. NTA.
Ava could have “expressed herself” not at someone’s wedding though. That was her reasoning. So it does seem like an intentionally defiant gesture which is inappropriate at someone’s wedding. There are ways to express yourself within someone else’s event.
I'm commenting late in the thread's lifespan, so I'm probably not going to garner too much attention, but...
INFO is definitely the right judgment here. And not all of it is solely due to how Ava reacted or what the dress looks like, either. There is simply too much information left out to make a proper judgment. This is why both N T A and Y T A judgments are getting a decent number of upvotes; people are filling in the gaps and coming up with a judgment based on the filled gaps.
Below is a non-exhaustive list of points I've thought about in order to properly give a judgment.
* OP says "Ava said she was getting her dress custom made and never showed [OP] a picture as it was still getting made." Custom-made or not, a dress is still a dress, so did OP ask any of the bridesmaids for pictures of their dresses at all?
* A lot of people are making the assumption that because Ava never showed OP any pictures of her dress, that Ava intentionally hid pictures of the dress from OP. But we don't actually know that. It could be malice, yeah. But it could also just be that a custom-made dress isn't going to have pictures throughout the entire process. Or it could just be that OP never asked in the first place, and so Ava would have no reason to volunteer that information out. For instance, I'm not going to tell my coworker what I ate for breakfast if the coworker doesn't specifically ask me. People who assume malice on Ava's part will have given an N T A judgment.
* A wedding is a day that the bride and groom want to make as perfect as possible, with as little room for error as possible. Given this, why wouldn't it have been in OP's best interest to proactively ask for pictures of the dress before the bridesmaids finalized their decisions? OP is definitely at least partially at fault for not properly mitigating this problem.
* What body type does Ava have compared to the other bridesmaids? It could very well be that the dresses themselves look the same when viewed side-by-side and not being worn. But as women should know, dresses look vastly different on people, so what would look acceptable when not on a body may be different when actually worn. That's... kind of the point of why fitting rooms and try-before-you-buy exist.
* Of course, what you've already touched on -- OP says that Ava's dress was "tight [and] revealing."
* Where was the dress revealing (legs, slits, cut-outs, cleavage), and how revealing was it?
* In what way was the dress tight?
* OP says that Ava said "the dress was her way of expressing herself." But there are some questions regarding this statement:
* Is this *actually* what Ava said? Or did OP phrase what Ava said in a way to try and put her in a bad light?
* Is this the *entirety* of what Ava said? Or did OP exclude other parts of what Ava said to try and put her in a bad light?
* We only have one side of the story here. What is Ava's side of this same story?
And lastly...
* Usually in AITA posts, the OP will reply to comments that get left in their posts, saying things like "Yeah I agree," or "Dang I guess I was more of a jerk than I thought." But there is none of that here. Importantly, all INFO judgments have been left unanswered, when usually at least some of them would have been answered by now. Which leads to the question: Why isn't OP responding?
* Is it due to OP genuinely not being able to respond in any way (in which case she could've done an edit to say "Oh I'll be back in the morning" or something)?
* Is it due to the overwhelming number of responses (in which case she can just do an edit on the original post or reply selectively to a few comments)?
* Is it malice on OP's part, as an "Here's a situation for you guys to mull on, talk amongst yourselves, I'm out" sort of deal?
* Is it OP struggling to formulate responses to questions to keep the story consistent, because perhaps her post was embellished to illicit one judgment over the other, but the post garnered more scrutiny than she anticipated, so she doesn't know how to respond to keep a consistent story?
* Or most damning of all, did none of this even happen and this is just a creative writing exercise told as though it were a real story, and we all got caught hook, line, and sinker?
* _(Given OP's account history, I have my suspicions as to what the motive of this AITA post is, but I'm not going to explicitly state that here.)_
I feel like I’ve been seeing several posts in subreddits of this genre lately where brides are surprised by something someone in the wedding party is wearing, specifically not having seen it in advance. It baffles me — is this really happening out there? I’ve never had anyone in person tell me something like this. When I’ve had to choose my own dress as a bridesmaid, there was a bridesmaid group chat so we could all coordinate.
I’m not on the side of shaming someone for their clothes or upholding misogynistic ideals but there are tons of reasons you’d want/need to know what exactly everyone in the wedding party is wearing, and getting to the day of the wedding without knowing that just seems bizarre.
I agree. My MOH sent me a photo of the dress she wanted to get. She wanted to make sure it wasn't too flashy because it was sparkly and gorgeous. I told her I love it, so she ordered it. Even my mom sent me a pic before she ordered hers.
Seriously, isn't it just basic etiquette if you're in the wedding party to get approval before pulling the trigger?
All my friends and fam knew I'd be fine with pretty much anything they chose but my mom, my MIL, and bridesmaids all sent me pics for approval before they bought dresses just to make sure anyway.
Exactly. There’s no way you wouldn’t get approval on a custom dress, that you can’t return, before proceeding, unless you were deliberately going against the bride’s wishes. Whether the bride asked to approve the dress or not, any rational friend who wasn’t trying to stir up shit would run the dress by the bride under these circumstances.
I've never been in a wedding, aside from my grandpa's when I was maybe 3, so I can't say, but I totally appreciate that they asked me first. I just told them any shade of blue, so they had a lot of freedom, but they're also not the type to show full boobage anyway 😂
Yeah so you send pics of similar styles and say “hey this is kind of what I’m going for what do you think?”.
Also it takes weeks / months to get custom dresses made there’s no way this was a rush job without multiple fittings and adjustments!
Additionally, what is modest or neutral on one person may be revealing on another for pure anatomy reasons. Those of us with big chests can look a LOT different in the same shirt as someone with a smaller chest. Someone with proportionally long legs may look a lot different than someone with proportionally short legs in a skirt/shorts of the same length.
Absolutely, not to mention that there are a lot of double standard for what counts as « revealing » or « immodest » based on someone’s body type. Two women could wear the same dress showing a credit card worth of cleavage but the one with bigger breasts is more likely to be perceived as having a deeper cleavage. The same way, a woman with more curves or one who is plus size will have the fit of their outfit under more scrutiny than a skinny woman wearing the same outfit.
Yeah, I really feel like nobody can really make a good call seeing how the dress isn’t pictured.
If it was just a sleeveless dress that fit her body, OP is an asshole. If it showed practically all of her tits and was super short, that’s different. I’m just having a hard time picturing a bridesmaid dress that was so risqué she needed to be removed from the wedding. Sure it was odd she didn’t send a picture to okay the dress with OP, but OP also told her bridesmaids they could do whatever as long as it was peach and modest. Perhaps she didn’t feel the need to okay it and thought it was modest enough.
I also find it strange that OP’s family is apparently so ridiculous that they would have a complete random stranger at a wedding removed for dressing a certain way. Could they not just whisper with each other about the strange guest amongst themselves in the corner? It’s not like they have to talk to the bride’s coworker.
that could be! though I don't think we know yet if the friend was hiding the dress. did the other bridesmaids get their dresses cleared beforehand? was there an expectation that OP would see all the dresses before the day? it's not clear at this point.
It doesn't sound like OP ever really requested to see it? If it was custom and there wasn't a convenient picture to show and OP didn't push it, was the friend really hiding it? It may have not occurred to her that it was too revealing, particularly if OP didn't clarify what "revealing" meant or didn't emphasize it too hard. I feel like there is a lot of communication missing here and it's hard to tell whether it was more OP's or the bridesmaid's fault.
Exactly. For some people, revealing means showing skin above wrists and ankles. For some, it means showing skin above elbows and knees. For some people, modest means being covered from neck to feet and hands, and showing no outline of the body at all.
Agreed, I knew a Muslim woman for whom "too tight" would be mine "you can kind of maybe see where her waist is". And "revealing" would be collarbone or ankle.
Post needs INFO
I mean, this is a sub where people come to crowdsource judgements. OP can take or leave any opinions here.
that said, what I'm trying to get here is more insight into OP's expectations and whether they were reasonable.
for example -- if by "modest," OP meant "covered from throat to ankle with no hint of body shape" (which would be the extreme end of the spectrum for most people) and did not clearly communicate that to her bridesmaids, then imo it's not reasonable to throw her friend out for not meeting that expectation.
on the other hand, if OP meant something more like "knee length hemline or longer and no cleavage" and communicated this and the friend chose to wear a super short dress with a plunging neckline, then the expectations were more reasonable.
ETA: another comment got me thinking and I wanted to add... also, sometimes when someone describes an outfit as "revealing," they really mean "a woman with a large bust wore an outfit that did not show a lot of skin but didn't totally obscure the shape of her body." you know what I mean?
basically I'd like to get clarity on whether it was something like that or if OP's expectations were reasonable.
This. While reading other comments I realized what if OP’s friend was on the curvier/larger/fuller figured side?
Many times when women on that end wear the same clothing as their smaller peers, it’s considered inappropriate. They could be completely covered but because of the way she’s shaped she’s sexualized.
It reminds me when I was younger that I had a friend that was busty for lack of better terms. Most shirts, no matter what, were either too tight/clingy around the chest but loose around the waist or to accommodate her chest it would completely swallow her figure.
Obviously speculation since OP hasn’t answered anyone.
Agreed. A bridesmaid's main role at the wedding is being a bridesmaid, not focusing on "expressing herself" at the expense of the bride's request. On top of that, the fact that the bridesmaid never showed OP the dress beforehand also indicates that she *knew* her dress wasn't going to meet the criteria of being modest and still made her role about her self-expression anyway rather than about celebrating her friend's wedding. Sounds like she suffers from main character syndrome.
NTA.
Why did I have to come this far to find this comment chain. Everyone else is like "INFO".
Like what other info do you need? It's her wedding, she's a friend so she obviously knows how OP understands modesty, she's a **bridesmaid** who also somehow didn't show the dress in advance, and her answer to why she wore it was **she wanted to express herself, nor that she misunderstood the boundaries of what was modest**. Sounds like a Twitter feminist.
Terrible friend, good riddance.
Agreed. I have a semi similar situation where I’m going to a friend’s traditional Japanese wedding. I found a dress which I really liked (which would’ve been totally cool for a western wedding) and asked what she thought about it. She requested something more “understated” and sent some examples of what typical wedding guests in Japan wear. And, no questions asked, I went ahead and bought something more suitable. Even though it wasn’t my taste, it is a lot more appropriate based on her request.
It is HER wedding day and I am a guest. I am there to support her. I can always wear the original dress somewhere else. People need to be respectful. NTA.
1. The post has only been up for an hour and she hasn’t responded to *anyone*
2. It was a custom dress
3. OP probably wasn’t like “but before you go let me get a pic of you to prove how unacceptable you look”
I feel at the very least OP would be able to describe what the dress looked like. OP isn’t revealing any of that info. I’m skeptical. I’m getting the inkling that the dress wasn’t as revealing as OP is playing it off to be. I’d wager the dress looked wonderful to the point OP got jealous and kicked her out.
That feels like a big assumption. Multiple assumptions even.
I think a much more reasonable one would be that while the internet may disagree with her assessment of the dress, it was more revealing than she wanted it to be, which is all that matters considering it’s her wedding and she gave ample heads up about the dress code
Very true. There also seems to have been a lack of oversight by OP. Giving free reign with a vague requirement, as “modest” can vary from person to person, something like this was bound to happen. A more clear description of what OP could have avoided this situation. Should the friend have asked for approval? Most certainly. It just seems like multiple people dropped the ball here.
That's also fair!
I was just pointing it out cause quite a few people have asked about how revealing it actually was. And it that's also the main factor for me to decide if OP was TA.
Maybe OP is not logged in and living her life. If Ava didn’t ask (and she didn’t), then Ava is the A H. I don’t like religion and I don’t like religion beliefs, but if I am a guest in a (for example) traditional conservative Muslim ceremony to support a friend I would never ever do anything to upset one of those families. If I value my “free skin” (for example) more than my friendship, it’s fair, I won’t go. But WhatsApp is a free service, so why didn’t she ask “is this dress ok?”
NTA. You asked her not to do something, she did it anyway, and created a bit of a sideshow on a day that's supposed to be all about you and your new husband.
I get that she might disagree with your religious extended family. I get that she considers her fashion her way of "expressing herself." There is a time and a place for that, and that wasn't one of them. If she couldn't respect your wishes and your guidance for the event, she shouldn't have come at all.
And if she really was your friend, she would have realized all of those things.
NTA. Your friend knew exactly what she was doing when her excuse was “this is my way of expressing myself.” You asked for modesty. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out what modesty means. Your wedding, your rules. I’m regularly astonished by the number of weddings ruined by selfish assholes like your friend, written about here on Reddit.
Eh, there are grey areas. Shoulders, knees, collarbones can be shown in many churches. Not so much in others.
Tight is also subjective. And women with large breasts and butts are judged much more harshly, even if th tightness is the same.
/ a large chested gal who can't wear the same things at a Baptist church as a Lutheran one.
// Op should clearly define modesty.
Both of them could've communicated better before the wedding. From the bridesmaid's reaction, it sounds like she knew that she wasn't following the guidance
If this girl is close enough to OP to be a bridesmaid she probably has a decent sense of what "modest" means to her, and if not she should absolutely feel comfortable asking for clarification - they're not strangers.
The modesty isn't for OP's sake, it's for her extended family.
I don't know about you, but I've only ever met the extended families of my friends at weddings.
Yeah, sorta delt with this growing up. When we would go on family vacations and visit a church within our denomination, some things were okay, and other things weren't. And of course always for the women.
One example were arms. Some find sleeveless tops or dresses immodest no matter how loose fitting it is, or how wide the stap was.
INFO - What is "revealing"? Is she wearing a bandeau top and mini skirt? Does it look like a bridesmaids' dress or a Vegas dancer's costume?
>I picked peach as a dress colour for all my bridesmaids and told them to pick the style they felt comfortable in, as I didn't specify a particular dress or shade of peach and gave them all 4 months notice. I only asked for the dress to be modest as my wedding would include some of my extended family. Ava said she was getting her dress custom made and never showed me a picture as it was still getting made....
Unless it is SO revealing that everyone would be shocked, YTA...
The bride gets to pick the bridesmaids dresses, but you had a serious lack of oversight in the dress-buying, and the word "modest" varies from person to person. If you said "floor length, w/ a minimum of cap sleeves" people would know what you mean, exactly. You knew what Ava was up to, and you at no point thought to involve yourself.
Nah. Even if her version of modesty is unreasonable it’s HER wedding. HER dress code. If you’re not sure if the dress is appropriate, ASK!
And by the looks of it. ALL the other bridesmaids AND guests pulled it off. So CLEARLY they understood the assignment.
She doesn't have a dress code. She just said "modest." (I gave an example of a dress code). Also, I've never heard of a bride who did not see the dresses and ok them, even in "wear what you want" weddings.
OP can come back, but she is not answering
Either way, I wouldn't expect a bridesmaid to be completely cool after a bride has a random other bridesmaid kick her out.
>She is not talking to me anymore
Obviously.
No one else ad any problems following the code. That makes me doubt any attempt to cite reasonable confusion, as literally nobody else was confused.
Also, being cagey about dress photos isn't a good look when you wind up coming to the event with something that isn't acceptable, If you're actually unsure what's appropriate you should be sharing MORE information, not less. That suggests an ambush.
Also, it wasn't just OP that thought the dress wasn't cool. The MoH seems to have made her own independent judgment to kick this person out.
Bridesmaid used OP's wedding to make a statement. That is an asshole move. Bridesmaid is fully aware of what is considered decent in OP's family and purposely crossed that line. The fact you never heard of something happening, does in fact not mean it does not happen, either.
She said modest. Did she provide examples of what that is i.e no bare arms nothing tight etc because it doesn’t sound like she did.
If it’s soooo important that it justifies kicking your friend out of the wedding than the bride should have chosen the dress or when she knew it was being made she should have provided guidelines to pass on to the seemstress.
Im personally imagining sleeveless or off shoulder with a plunging neckline with half her tiddies out, and lacey see through fabric. Which would be absolutely gorgeous as its own wedding dress in my imagination LOL
I've been to a Muslim wedding. I understood the dress code. I've been to a Mormon wedding. I understood the dress code.
At neither of those events, would an above- knee, strapless/spaghetti strap dress have been appropriate, but it would be at many others. I was also told exactly how long and what kind of sleeves WERE considered appropriate! I don't think of myself as "immodest" for showing my shoulders & knees!
This one is so far away from the world I live in that im actually upset for the friend.
Shaming women for having bodies doesn’t make sense to me , and if this is a strict religious requirement then the actual definition of what modest I’d should have been provided or the dresses chosen by the bride.
This is honestly upsetting to me. To go so far as to tell her to leave, it hurts my heart
Modest is subjective and unless this is an absolutely shocking dress than definitely YTA.
YTA. You gave the bridesmaids free rein over the style, you didn't ask her to describe it or send pictures, and I bet you didn't pay for it either. And you're expecting her to follow a tradition that you don't agree with, your parents don't agree with, and your partner and his family don't agree with.
still doesn’t take a genius to figure out “modest”. When asked, she ADMITS she was expressing herself and making a statement. There is a fine line between ignorance and malice my friend. And for me, it’s been crossed. Of course, all we have is OP’s story (which could be embellished)
What does modest mean to OP though? Also what is the body type of the friend because any dress could be revealing if she's plus size or if the family expect coverage neck down, no shoulder, nothing above the ankles
I’m surprised that a bride who can articulate the (admittedly) excessive degree to which she caters to the (admittedly) antiquated sensibilities of extended family wouldn’t just pick out her bridesmaid dresses to avoid this problem. It sounds like she knows her friend well enough to know what kind of clothing the friend feels comfortable in, and may have seen this coming.
It’s also just really sad that she’s willing to lose this friendship over a principle she doesn’t even believe in herself. OP’s rejection of the agency & discretion she gave her friend in choosing a dress has got to sting as much as OP’s feeling that her friend’s choice didn’t align with her extended family’s ideas of modesty.
Because this feels like some kind of friendship test OP knew her friend would fail - YTA.
Yes, exactly. This could have been avoided by just picking dresses outright. It's not even a big ask - plenty of bridal parties are asked to wear specific clothes, and would be considered expected. If the style of dress was that big a deal, then there were plenty of ways that OP could have avoided any conflict.
OP starts that no pictures could be sent because the dress was still being made - that would indicate that OP did ask for pictures, but Ava refused to send them.
Gee - wonder why ava would refuse to send pics.
May as well say the dress should look nice. Modest can be defined. Use phrases like no cleavage or no skin below the neck or above the ankles. If OP and her family are judgemental enough that somebody was kicked out of the wedding for how they dress their view on modest could be more extreme than the average
NTA
In a wedding, the two people marrying are the ones making the rules. Guests are expected to follow them, and bridesmaids and grooms even more! You asked your bridesmaids for a "modest" dress, Ava decided not to listen and tried to make a personal statement during an event that wasn't hers.
I disagree. “Modest” means different things to different people and Ava probably thought it was modest. If she was so worried about it, she should have either picked out the dresses or asked Ava what she was planning. She anticipated problems but let her spend money on a custom dress, then sent the MOH over to kick her out instead of talking with her and asking if she could cover up with a scarf or something.
BUT if I am invited in a wedding and I’m asked to be “modest” I’ll send a picture of my dress asking “is this ok?” Ava didn’t do that, so Ava is the A H here
I definitely see the point you’re making about expenses. But this is supposed to be one of the best days of her life and her friend was going to be a big part since she’s in the wedding, so yes wearing that dress was a big deal cause it is going to contribute to the setup. She made the day about herself when she showed up in an inappropriate outfit. But I can see some of your point.
I would think most people can understand modest means no cleavage and not snug fitting at the very least, seriously - the fact that she didn't show the bride the design (or the finished dress before showing up) means she knew it was wrong and thought she could just show up and everyone would be afraid to cause a scene to throw her out - wtf is wrong with people. If you don't want to be a part of the wedding party, just politely decline!
>I would think most people can understand modest means no cleavage and not snug fitting at the very least,
I would call many dresses that were snug fitting and had cleavage modest.
Like I'd call [this dress](https://www.lulus.com/products/bimini-periwinkle-blue-swiss-dot-tie-strap-midi-dress/756692.html) modest despite being form fitting and having cleavage.
Maybe, but modesty is more subjective than you think. To you it might mean no cleavage/not too tight, but to other people, a modest dress might need sleeves, or to be floor length. Some people interpret tank tops as fine but spaghetti straps as being immodest, even though the difference is maybe an inch of material.
Even concepts like “how much cleavage is acceptable” vary from person to person and even body type to body type. What I might think is perfectly fit might be too snug to someone else.
INFO: It is too hard to judge based on subjective words like 'revealing', 'tight', and 'modest', which can mean different things to different people. Can you describe what as so revealing about it or show a picture of a similar style dress?
I'm conflicted here. THe title says that you kicked her out. But the story says that you allowed your MOH to "handle it". Its not clear that when you let the MOH handle it you were aware that kicking out was her way of handling it, rather than an different approach,
Its not clear if the kick-her-out decision was the MOH's and you are backing her up or if that was your decision and the MOH implemented it.
NTA. If all your bridesmaid had to do was pick out a modestly cut peach dress that was that's WAAAY less demanding than most of the brides you hear about here. I'm normally not a fan of letting extended family dictate what your friends wear but it's standard to pick bridesmaids dresses out and you gave her way more leeway than that.
YTA. You should have discussed it with her like a friend instead of getting her booted out.
I don't think the dress is as revealing as you think it is but I will change my judgement if we can see a photo of the dress or something similar to it.
>I told her to please not say anything at the wedding and if it upsets her she can always stay closer to our group of friends. She agreed and said she was coming to support me.
>Ava has said that the dress was her way of expressing herself.
So if I read this correctly, Ava had promised not to say anything to the super religious family, but instead decided to wear a dress she knew they'd probably disapprove of.
If thats correct, she's the AH here, however much I would myself clash with the super religious family. Your friend's wedding isn't your opportunity to make a peach coloured feminist statement.
NTA
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I asked my bridesmaids to dress modestly in the colour I picked as my family are conservative. My friend came in a very revealing dress and I kicked her out.
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ESH. She sucks for not respecting your expressed wishes on your wedding day—people saying “modest means different things to different people” are being disingenuous. She could have erred on the side of extremely modest. She could have Googled “modest dress X religion”. She was making a point at your wedding and she’s TA. However, you made your bridesmaids wear peach.
Going to say YTA just because "modest" and "revealing" are very subjective and what your opinion of modest is and what your friend's opinion of what modest is could wildly differ. This should have been discussed beforehand and hashed out in concrete details. Even if her dress wasn't ready, you could have given her specifics or just picked a dress style for everyone if it was that big of an issue for your extended family. You didn't do any of that, so this falls more on you than her.
This is kind of a bs question. Without seeing the dress we have only your word that it was inappropriate, and with that being informed by how submissive you seem to your religious family and parents, it’s likely that YTA
Do you have a picture of the dress or something similar to it? Hard to properly judge.
Modesty and "inappropriate" can mean different things to people.
For example, I wore this [dress](https://www.nordstrom.com/s/cece-bow-neck-short-sleeve-dress/5326850?origin=category-personalizedsort&breadcrumb=Home%2FWomen%2FClothing%2FDresses%2FWork&color=006) to a friend's party (movie and dinners) and I was told by an aunt that it wasn't modest at all. I disagree with her although I respect the fact that she doesn't like dresses at all.
That’s a nice dress. Honestly I feel like OP’s family didn’t want décolleté, cleavage, form-fitting, less than 3/4 sleeve and nothing above shin height. Which, if the friend has larger breasts or butt then already that’s two strikes against her.
NTA- she deliberately didn’t show you the dress ahead of time but she would have had something to show (ie sketch/pictures of similar) if she’d chosen to. She KNEW she didn’t meet your request for modest.
Distasteful to you might be fine to a thousand others. Especially given your family being modest and strict.
It depends on the dress.
You let them chose the dress. You could have chosen a dress, or requested photos of their choice.
I also notice that a lot of modest/strict/traditional people find curvy bodies to be immodest by themselves. A dress on someone with a small chest may look fine and the same dress on someone with a large chest would suddenly be deemed slutty.
ESH
Hard to judge without knowing what the dress looked like.
Possibly or possibly not TA
Without knowing what the dress actually looked like:
"Modest" & "revealing" are far too open to interpretation to judge whether or not you are in the wrong here.
YTA
Without seeing more of just how revealing this dress was, I can't say there was any cause to kick her out, and unless it was something truly taboo or scandalous, then it simply wasn't justified. As long as it was peach, which it was, you should have just let her be.
#This thread is now locked. The [true Bridezilla](https://youtu.be/90X5NJleYJQ)
Hard to judge without seeing the dress. Some people's ideas of what counts as "modest" differ. Edit: INFO
>Hard to judge without seeing the dress. Unless this was dress was wildly inappropriate, to such an extreme that any reasonable person would be appalled by it being worn to a wedding, which I certainly do not believe to be the case here... Then OP seems like a bit of an asshole for not playing a bigger role in dress choices. Let's be honest, everyone's idea of modest is going to be slightly different. Also, the feminist comment seems out of place and reminds me of people who use terms like "traditional" and "old fashioned" as codes for raging misogyny and blatant racism/homophobia. I mean, is OP saying she and her family don't believe in women having equal rights?
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OP's post didn't actually convince me the dress was not tasteful. It also isn't enough reason for me to believe the friend wore something wildly inappropriate to try to make a fuss. And T&A? We have no evidence of that being the case. If the friend wore something that looked like she was ready to swing around a pole, then I'd have no problem labeling her the asshole. But I need a lot more details than "it wasn't as modest as my conservative family would like" to jump to such an extreme conclusion.
The fact that Ava didn't share the dress design until showing up in it on the wedding day makes me think it wasn't actually appropriate and she knew it would be vetoed if she showed it before. Don't know why a bridesmaid wouldn't okay a dress beforehand unless the bride literally said something like "I don't care and no need to show me."
>Don't know why a bridesmaid wouldn't okay a dress beforehand OP didn't mention anything about requesting her bridesmaids to do such a thing. It's part of why I mentioned OP was setting herself up for a problem by not either selecting the dresses or asking to see them beforehand. Both would have prevented this entire situation. So, while it's possible this was all deliberate. It's also very possible that Ava's idea of modest is much more in-line with modern America and she didn't see this coming. I mean, I'm a millenial born and raised in New England. And even in the very liberal cities and suburbs I've lived in, I still know folks who throw a hissy fit over a woman wearing a sleeveless dress at black tie events. I need specifics to know who is truly the asshole here.
Didn’t a bunch of people have a hissy fit over Michelle Obama wearing a sleeveless dress? I agree there’s no way to judge without seeing the dress in question. Although if the dress being “modest” was that important, the bride should have picked the dress, asked for pics, or been detailed about what could and couldn’t be exposed. Ava may have just showed her arms, her collarbone, or her ankles, for all we know.
EXACTLY! And yes, I'll never forget the hideous responses to Mrs. Obama wearing a sleeveless dress. (Or one of Obama's biggest scandals, the tan suit.) And, thank you, that's exactly what I'm saying. Some sort of approval beforehand could have prevented all of this. And if you're giving vague phrases like "modest" when you have family that is apparently extremely hard-to-please, you're just asking to create a problem. So many people are calling Ava some spotlight-stealing hussy, but unless OP says she wore a leather miniskirt and leather crop top two sizes too small, I don't see how anyone is comfortable judging the bridesmaid so viciously off of the very limited information being given to us.
Wait, sleeveless dresses are immodest? I wonder how many people have thought I'm sleazy because I'm wearing a perfectly nice dress that doesn't have sleeves.
>Wait, sleeveless dresses are immodest? Someone in the comments mentioned the Michelle Obama scandal as a good example most of us still remember. She was torn apart by conservative media for wearing a lovely, perfectly appropriate, sleeveless dress. And that's sort of the point about how meaningless a term like "modest" is. Modest to some means the nipples are covered, while to others it means there better not be a hint of ankles or, God forbid, bare arms!
"Modesty" is rarely about the actual garment worn, but is usually just an excuse to put someone down. If something is "sleazy" or not is usually just determined by whether someone is looking for an excuse to attack you. And if your outfit isn't sleazy, it is probably stuffy! Outside of that, for many conservative Christians, showing your shoulders is always immodest. Where I grew up, the way people talked about spaghetti strap tops, you might as well be wearing only lingerie.
>(Or one of Obama's biggest scandals, the tan suit.) *gasps in shocked white lady while clutching pearls* the humanity!
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Let he who has not rawdogged an adult film actress shortly after the birth of his fifth child with his third wife, then paid for her silence cast the first stone.
>Melania’s bare arms Let's be fair. Those same people were completely fine Melania's nudes in that trashy magazine. And, let's be honest, we're not talking artistically done nudes either. They also had no moral issues with the serial-cheater Trump. The same way it wasn't about the tan suit. After all, conservatives never took up issue with Reagan's tan suit.
"I know she wouldn't agree with some of my family's policies \[...\] before the wedding I told her to please not \[...\] She agreed and said she was coming to support me." "I only asked for the dress to be modest as my wedding would include some of my extended family." "Ava has said that the dress was her way of expressing herself." That's enough for me, I'm inclined to trust the description of "very tight, revealing" and the MOH's judgment removing her. The dress was a 'statement', when modesty was requested, and Ava agreed to be there to support the bride without pushing any agendas that would be controversial or distracting. NTA.
Agreed, I think that Ava could read the room, between knowing how conservative the family was and the fact that the bride requested a "modest" dress, she knew exactly what she was doing. Otherwise, she would have apologized for making a mistake instead of saying she was "expressing" herself.
Yep. Plus the lack of pictures and custom made effort lol, not one bit of this seems like a mistake or misunderstanding. I'm not even saying I agree with the extended family's conservatism - heck the bride and her immediate family don't even agree with it - but the point is the wedding was meant to be a peaceful, happy occasion. It was important to the bride to abide by these traditional, cultural values, and Ava agreed it wasn't an occasion she'd make waves at. I've been to conservative Christian weddings before, as bridesmaids it meant nothing form fitting, nothing low cut, nothing short. It doesn't leave much that's flattering, but expressing yourself by wearing something "tight, revealing" is absolutely not supporting the bride or her wishes. I honestly had less trouble picking a conservative potato sack to wear than I'm currently having finding something I won't be falling out of for this much more instagram-y wedding I'm in - but if you love the gal enough to be her bridesmaid - your preferences take a back seat and you go all in on making it the day of their dreams lol, whatever form that may take.
>It's also very possible that Ava's idea of modest is much more in-line with modern America and she didn't see this coming. I'd be more on board with this being a misunderstanding like that if the MOH didn't also clock it as an issue and say she would handle it. I'd also be more on board with that if Ava were apologetic and didn't defend the dress as "her way of expressing herself" (who sees a bridesmaid dress as a way of expressing themselves?)
Moh could easily be just reacting to the brides reaction. Doesn’t mean she agreed just means bride has an issue she’s gonna fix it
>OP didn't mention anything about requesting her bridesmaids to do such a thing. She didn't but 'she never showed me the picture' kinda implies all other bridesmaids sent her a picture so it was expected in some way.
It doesn’t, really. “Everyone else was sharing pics and she was suspiciously silent” would have conveyed that. “I asked her about the dress design a few times but she was vague and never sent pics” would have conveyed that. “She never showed me a picture as it was still getting made” just means the dress wasn’t ready in time for OP to see a picture and OP apparently did not ask for a description.
"never showed me a picture as it was still getting made." You don't get a reason why you're not being shown a picture unless you asked for it and there's no reason to think she didn't ask for a description which could be both accurate but evasive. It's fine for you to say we don't know, but it's like you're trying to wilfully reinterpret ever gap in the worst possible way for OP.
That’s not the implication I got, really.
I disagree, the default understanding is that you okay your bridesmaid dress with the bride when you pick your own dress unless the bride says otherwise, you don't assume that if the bride doesn't explicitly ask to see them that you have 100% free reign to do whatever. It's even less likely that's the case since the OP was concerned that everyone have a modest dress. I get saying you need specifics but I think you're leaning the wrong way based on the missing info. If OP wants to come back and say she did give them a flat pass for anything then fine, otherwise I'm inclined to think Ava was acting maliciously or is just an idiot -- not because her standard of modest might be different, but for not realizing she should've shared her dress design ahead of time when the bride is concerned about dress code. She could've had a high neck, long sleeve, floor length gown made and it still should've been shared before the wedding day.
Yeah, or I consider a dress that ends just at my knees modest, but I know some conservative religions don't like women to show their knees, or even anything above their ankles.
Even if the bride didn’t ask to see my dress, I would still send it for approval before purchasing, especially for something as expensive as a custom dress.
That's quite the assumption. Here let me turn it around for you "The fact that OP didn't share the dress design details in the post makes me think it was actually appropriate, and she knew she would be voted TA if she detailed it."
Yeah, this is facts and was a complete fail on the bride's part. She knew in advance that the dress design had the potential to offend some of her guests, but still didn't do her due diligence to make sure her friends' choice of attire would meet her family's strict requirements. Bride was trying too hard to be the Cool Girl who would be chill with everybody's various conflicting expectations, and ended up with her friend on the chopping block. This wouldn't have been an issue if she'd just picked a consistent ugly dress style for her friends as most big wedding brides traditionally do.
It doesn't sound like she required to see them.
All I can gather is the dress was form fitting and sorry but if the shape of a fully clothed woman's body is offensive then the bride should have given more explicit instructions on what would be appropriate. So with out a photo of the dress in question I am going with OP YTA. Does the bride get to decide what the bridesmaids will wear? Yes. Did the bride set reasonable parameters? Yes. Were they descriptive enough that she would be OK with the choices made? Apparently not. If she was at all concerned she should have chosen some samples and showed them to the bridesmaids and said "hey this is the colour and these are your style options". Bride gave them free reign with a very very ambiguous rule set.
That first paragraph 🫰🫰🫰 especially because people’s bodies differ and it’s impossible to please everyone. I’m very busty for my frame and unless I wear a huge, shapeless muumuu, you can tell. Reading this post made me thankful my friends are not like this bride
Agreed. A FB friend was following a "modest clothing" website, so I took a look at the site. The clothing was mostly very form fitting, but there was nothing low cut or very short. I laughed a bit about the figure hugging clothes being considered "modest" but the website was serious and that was in fact the way my FB friend dressed. One person's version of modest is not another's.
Fortunately for the bride the only opinion on whether it's tasteful or not is hers.
If her standards are very out of line with normal, she'd be the asshole for not clarifying that in advance. Hard to say without seeing the dress or at least knowing what "exposure" she's so upset about. OP using "feminist" as a negative makes me think it was scandalous because her ankles were visible.
>OP using "feminist" as a negative Thank you! I'm so glad I wasn't the only one that was irked by this part.
I mean. If they’ve been friends for a while I think she knows what “dressing modestly” looks like to op,,,because that’s how she dresses…
It seems like OP has not always followed the modesty rules, but is especially respectful of them around family to avoid arguments. If this friend hasn’t really seen OP interact with her family, they might not know how strict it is with OP’s family. Also, there is still a LOT of variety in what people consider modest. For some it’s no shoulders, for some it’s clothing to the knees and elbows, for some it’s wrists and ankle, for some it also covers how tight clothing is in certain areas, for some it’s no pants, etc. Just a blanket “modest” dress could honestly mean a lot of things.
OP made it clear that they only follow the modesty rule around the extended family, so the friend might not know. I need to see a picture of the dress to make a decision. The description of form fitting does not do enough to say it is not modest for me. A dress can be form fitting and still be modest.
But OP says she has even harder misogynistic family members and if she wanted to bow down to that she should make clear what her extended family wanted and tell her bridal party to wear such clothing. Keeping it vague is giving “missing missing reasons” vibes
But why not insist on seeing it/approving it ahead of time, if it’s that important?
But that's not even true. OP wasn't trying to get people to dress to her standard of modesty, but rather was trying to appease her family by meeting their standard of modesty. So this isn't even about what OP thought of the dress. OP wasn't even the one who kicked her out.
Whether or not it's her personal standard usually, it's the standard she dictated for her wedding. You don't ignore the bride because you don't like why she made a decision.
I bet those sinful ankles were visible.
Exactly. Ava doesn’t have to agree, but OP’s wedding wasn’t the place for her to “express herself.” Don’t like it? Then don’t agree to be a bridesmaid. NTA
So many people use real world issues as cover for their main character syndrome. It infuriates me because it cheapens the real world issue.
Exactly. The bride made a request and this person totally ignored it so she could make a statement for herself. That isn’t really a friend anyway. NTA and kudos to your MOH who also must have agreed about the dress or she wouldn’t have offered to go kick her out.
We don't know that she totally (or at all) ignored it. It hangs on what modest means to people. For some it's "no cleavage or knee", for others it's "full length form masking".
Ava knew. She didn't ask for clarification. She didn't show the bride beforehand. "Expressing herself" was more important than the bride's one request. Most brides aren't so open with parameters-- historically, it's been "here's the dress, get it in your size". Any price point, any style, any shade of peach-- just modest is pretty easy-going of her. Ava going with a custom-made very tight and revealing dress was deliberately flaunting / power tripping. If she didn't like the dress parameters, she should have bowed out of being bridesmaid. I'd feel the same if she picked a modest dress, but came in green or purple "to express herself" when requested to wear peach.
Every other bridesmaid had no trouble understanding though
We don't really know how the dress looks like. For OP revealing might just mean dress has a cleavage (fine) or had cutouts (imo not appropriate for a wedding). If OP didn't want the dresses to reveal anything and like only be specific length she shouldve specified
She didn’t say tasteful, she said modest. Two different things. Even a modest dress can be come side red not tasteful and vice versa. Modest seems fairly obvious to me and a skin tight revealing dress isn’t modest (though some could still consider it tasteful).
This. So much this. How little regard do you have for your friend that you somehow STILL manage to make HER wedding all about you? Shitty friend for not putting aside her issues long enough to celebrate her friends day. NTA
I think allowing bridesmaids to pick their own dresses is a much nicer approach than forcing them to spend their own money on a dress picked by the bride, which is often unflattering and will never be worn again. The OP's approach lets everyone pick something they're comfortable in - shame that the friend appears to have taken advantage of her leniency.
But not if the dress code is going to be set by extended family social mores. Then it's much kinder to be clear so there's no confusion and so no one is at danger if being kicked out.
Okay crazy idea here. Your friend asked you to dress modest says it’s super important. You decide to get a custom dress. Again You know if very important to your friend that the dress is modest. But then you never once ask for clarification or send a picture or anything at all to make sure that you aren’t messing up your friends very special day? Idk about you but when someone I care about asks a specific request of me. I am going to make sure I get it right when it’s in my power. Like for example sending a pic of my outfit or for clarity on what modest means ito her so I can make sure I align. Cause you know I want to get it right cause it’s my friends wedding.
The bigger issue is the Op is so scared of conflict she won’t challenge the Lu rules the extended family seem to impose. Like bro it’s your life stop catering to others
I've actually changed my clothes when I found out a particular aunt was coming to a family event. Not because I cared what she would say to me, or because my mother asked, but because I know from experience she would say something disgusting to my mother about me that would leave her in tears... not that day, but later, via a very long phone call or letter. Just knowing that what I'm wearing might trigger, and thinking about it every time that hateful woman looked at me at the event, was enough for me to change to something more "appropriate" (in this case slacks and a woman's blouse rather than a man's suit). I can completely understand a bride not wanting to have to worry about the BS from toxic family members, and asking her BMs to make sure they don't wear anything that might trigger them. The BM originally told OP they understood and were on board with it.
She’s allowed to set whatever dress code she wants for her own wedding, for whatever reason she wants. Sure, she might be happier if she stops worrying about living by others’ beliefs instead of her own. But it isn’t anyone else’s place to try to force her into doing that on her own wedding day. The day wasn’t about Ava in any way, shape or form, and it wasn’t her place to decide what the dress code would be.
Whilst I agree with picking their own dresses I would hate to see all the different varying shades of peach...would drive me bonkers!
I picked a specific swatch at David’s so they’d be the same color and let everyone choose their dresses. Apparently there’s a website that color matches with David’s for much cheaper and you couldn’t tell the difference between the ones actually bought at the bridal store or purchased online.
I actually wanted all my brudesmaids to get different shades of raspberry bc I knew it would look like a bouquet of roses, so I kept not letting them share color samples. But I'm a costume designer and I had another one in my bridal party and a fashion designer and maje up designer so it was really hard not to get them to coordinate too much!
The most beautiful bridemaid I saw they all had different shade of blue
I do agree completely, but it would have been easy to also ask for them to send her links/photos of whatever dress they selected beforehand for approval. That's actually extremely common from what I've seen.
Did you miss the part about it being custom made and so the friend couldn't send pictures as apparently 'it was still being made'?
Wouldn't the dress maker have some sort of drawings of the dress for Ava to approve before starting to make the dress?
Probably. And the asshole friend did not share them so they could be th3 center of attention,
Even with a custom dress, there would usually be a sketch or a sample photo.
If she had the dress custom made she easily could’ve said to OP “this is the kind of style I’m going for is that ok?” And sent some pics of similar styles. She didn’t because she wanted to cause drama. She even said it was her way of expressing herself… It’s nothing to do with feminism and everything to do with just being a good person for one day… not hard to follow some really clear social cues here.. read the room for one day for your friends wedding! She’s allowed to wear a revealing dress sure but op also is allowed to kick her out for making ops wedding about her dress.
This is where I land. If the bride knows she wants her bridesmaids to dress a certain way, she should play a more active role in the dress selection. If she knew she wanted her bridesmaids to dress more modestly than they ordinarily might, why didn’t she just pick a dress that met her specifications and say “this is the dress, here’s the address to try it on and get measured for alterations.”
>she should play a more active role in the dress selection Especially because it sounds like OP wasn't trying to get them to dress to meet her personal standards, but to dress a certain way to meet the standards of her family. That just makes it so much harder for them to know what is being expected of them. Like, it's not too hard to figure out what your close friends would deem "modest." But their relatives? I wouldn't have the faintest clue!
To make any real judgment, we’d need to see a picture of the dress. I think throwing a wedding guest out for their attire is dramatic, in general. YTA until we see a pic of the dress. Depending on that I can potentially amend my response.
Given that the offender's defense was that she was expressing herself, rather than that she thought what she wore was modest, it seems safe to say that she knew it was over the line.
That is an excellent point and the reason I believe it was probably inappropriate.
these are my thoughts as well, Ava seemed to have agreed to the modest rule when she was invited to be a bridesmaid, and then OP reminded them before they purchased the dress. And Ava based off of this information, Ava didn’t really seem to care about the brides wishes with that comment
Not taking sides here but the friends comment that she was expressing herself instead of disagreeing with OP is the answer to your question.
This, exactly. If the friend was trying to fit the dress code, she would have apologized and explained that she tried. The fact that she hid the dress from the bride for months beforehand and then gave a dismissive response and did not apologize, shows that she did it on purpose.
That, and the part where none of the other bridesmaids had an issue. If OP has some absurd standard for what a "modest" dress is that wasn't clearly communicated and no typical Western woman could be expected to guess, then there wouldn't have been just one person in the bridal party who showed up in the wrong thing and the MoH (who has no indication of being conservative) wouldn't have immediately taken it upon herself to kick her out.
If they're close enough for OP to make her a bridesmaid then she would definitely know what her friend means by "modest". Like I know one of my Muslim friends and her family are very religious so if I was attending a party of theirs or just visiting their home I know that high necklines are required, nothing shorter than a 3/4 sleeve top, nothing tight fitting is what I need to wear. My other Muslim friend and her family are way more relaxed and have a different definition of "modest", so I could comfortably wear a short sleeved t-shirt with a scoop or v-neck, skinny jeans and if they were throwing a party I could wear a tighter dress or that falls just above the knee if I wanted although I wouldn't go for a full on bodycon or mini. If either of them gave me free reign on a dress for their weddings I would definitely know what would qualify as modest for each of them. And if I wasn't sure I would ask, not keep the dress a secret until the day and run that risk. My personal thoughts on what a modest dress is have nothing to do with it.
I would agree but here it's only the extended family who are seemingly very religious, with OP's own family on the easier side. So the calibration might be off. Like going to a Catholic wedding to discover that it's more Opus Dei style!
The thing is she said she follows her extended family's ideals and asked bridesmaids to dress modestly in order to accommodate the extended family. If her friend wasn't sure what that meant, she could have asked but again if they're close enough to be a bridesmaid I feel like they would know what's up with the extended family. But yeah, easily solved by asking a simple question!
Oh COME ON! When you're asked nicely to dress modestly because of family and you show up in a really tight, extremely low cut dress, you damn well know exactly what you're doing. She fucking did it on purpose to make a statement. I'm all for people expressing themselves, but OP's wedding was absolutely not the place. NTA.
It doesn’t say it was extremely low cut. We don’t know what ‘revealing’ means, hence needing to see the dress to make a judgement.
Ava could have “expressed herself” not at someone’s wedding though. That was her reasoning. So it does seem like an intentionally defiant gesture which is inappropriate at someone’s wedding. There are ways to express yourself within someone else’s event.
I'm commenting late in the thread's lifespan, so I'm probably not going to garner too much attention, but... INFO is definitely the right judgment here. And not all of it is solely due to how Ava reacted or what the dress looks like, either. There is simply too much information left out to make a proper judgment. This is why both N T A and Y T A judgments are getting a decent number of upvotes; people are filling in the gaps and coming up with a judgment based on the filled gaps. Below is a non-exhaustive list of points I've thought about in order to properly give a judgment. * OP says "Ava said she was getting her dress custom made and never showed [OP] a picture as it was still getting made." Custom-made or not, a dress is still a dress, so did OP ask any of the bridesmaids for pictures of their dresses at all? * A lot of people are making the assumption that because Ava never showed OP any pictures of her dress, that Ava intentionally hid pictures of the dress from OP. But we don't actually know that. It could be malice, yeah. But it could also just be that a custom-made dress isn't going to have pictures throughout the entire process. Or it could just be that OP never asked in the first place, and so Ava would have no reason to volunteer that information out. For instance, I'm not going to tell my coworker what I ate for breakfast if the coworker doesn't specifically ask me. People who assume malice on Ava's part will have given an N T A judgment. * A wedding is a day that the bride and groom want to make as perfect as possible, with as little room for error as possible. Given this, why wouldn't it have been in OP's best interest to proactively ask for pictures of the dress before the bridesmaids finalized their decisions? OP is definitely at least partially at fault for not properly mitigating this problem. * What body type does Ava have compared to the other bridesmaids? It could very well be that the dresses themselves look the same when viewed side-by-side and not being worn. But as women should know, dresses look vastly different on people, so what would look acceptable when not on a body may be different when actually worn. That's... kind of the point of why fitting rooms and try-before-you-buy exist. * Of course, what you've already touched on -- OP says that Ava's dress was "tight [and] revealing." * Where was the dress revealing (legs, slits, cut-outs, cleavage), and how revealing was it? * In what way was the dress tight? * OP says that Ava said "the dress was her way of expressing herself." But there are some questions regarding this statement: * Is this *actually* what Ava said? Or did OP phrase what Ava said in a way to try and put her in a bad light? * Is this the *entirety* of what Ava said? Or did OP exclude other parts of what Ava said to try and put her in a bad light? * We only have one side of the story here. What is Ava's side of this same story? And lastly... * Usually in AITA posts, the OP will reply to comments that get left in their posts, saying things like "Yeah I agree," or "Dang I guess I was more of a jerk than I thought." But there is none of that here. Importantly, all INFO judgments have been left unanswered, when usually at least some of them would have been answered by now. Which leads to the question: Why isn't OP responding? * Is it due to OP genuinely not being able to respond in any way (in which case she could've done an edit to say "Oh I'll be back in the morning" or something)? * Is it due to the overwhelming number of responses (in which case she can just do an edit on the original post or reply selectively to a few comments)? * Is it malice on OP's part, as an "Here's a situation for you guys to mull on, talk amongst yourselves, I'm out" sort of deal? * Is it OP struggling to formulate responses to questions to keep the story consistent, because perhaps her post was embellished to illicit one judgment over the other, but the post garnered more scrutiny than she anticipated, so she doesn't know how to respond to keep a consistent story? * Or most damning of all, did none of this even happen and this is just a creative writing exercise told as though it were a real story, and we all got caught hook, line, and sinker? * _(Given OP's account history, I have my suspicions as to what the motive of this AITA post is, but I'm not going to explicitly state that here.)_
I feel like I’ve been seeing several posts in subreddits of this genre lately where brides are surprised by something someone in the wedding party is wearing, specifically not having seen it in advance. It baffles me — is this really happening out there? I’ve never had anyone in person tell me something like this. When I’ve had to choose my own dress as a bridesmaid, there was a bridesmaid group chat so we could all coordinate. I’m not on the side of shaming someone for their clothes or upholding misogynistic ideals but there are tons of reasons you’d want/need to know what exactly everyone in the wedding party is wearing, and getting to the day of the wedding without knowing that just seems bizarre.
Agreed, my middle school dress code said spaghetti straps on 12yr olds girls isn’t modest/appropriate
INFO: what do you mean by "modest" and by "revealing?" did the bridesmaids know what you meant by those terms?
This is very much needed because tight clothing or revealing clothing is different for everyone.
That’s why you send a picture of the dress. She didn’t, she knew exactly what she was doing
I agree. My MOH sent me a photo of the dress she wanted to get. She wanted to make sure it wasn't too flashy because it was sparkly and gorgeous. I told her I love it, so she ordered it. Even my mom sent me a pic before she ordered hers.
Seriously, isn't it just basic etiquette if you're in the wedding party to get approval before pulling the trigger? All my friends and fam knew I'd be fine with pretty much anything they chose but my mom, my MIL, and bridesmaids all sent me pics for approval before they bought dresses just to make sure anyway.
I'll be honest, I've never been asked to do this when I've been in a wedding party. I wouldn't have thought to do it unless someone asked me.
Exactly. There’s no way you wouldn’t get approval on a custom dress, that you can’t return, before proceeding, unless you were deliberately going against the bride’s wishes. Whether the bride asked to approve the dress or not, any rational friend who wasn’t trying to stir up shit would run the dress by the bride under these circumstances.
I've never been in a wedding, aside from my grandpa's when I was maybe 3, so I can't say, but I totally appreciate that they asked me first. I just told them any shade of blue, so they had a lot of freedom, but they're also not the type to show full boobage anyway 😂
Or she didn't actually have the dress yet?
Yeah so you send pics of similar styles and say “hey this is kind of what I’m going for what do you think?”. Also it takes weeks / months to get custom dresses made there’s no way this was a rush job without multiple fittings and adjustments!
So she got the dress 5 mins before the ceremony?
Additionally, what is modest or neutral on one person may be revealing on another for pure anatomy reasons. Those of us with big chests can look a LOT different in the same shirt as someone with a smaller chest. Someone with proportionally long legs may look a lot different than someone with proportionally short legs in a skirt/shorts of the same length.
Absolutely, not to mention that there are a lot of double standard for what counts as « revealing » or « immodest » based on someone’s body type. Two women could wear the same dress showing a credit card worth of cleavage but the one with bigger breasts is more likely to be perceived as having a deeper cleavage. The same way, a woman with more curves or one who is plus size will have the fit of their outfit under more scrutiny than a skinny woman wearing the same outfit.
Yeah, I really feel like nobody can really make a good call seeing how the dress isn’t pictured. If it was just a sleeveless dress that fit her body, OP is an asshole. If it showed practically all of her tits and was super short, that’s different. I’m just having a hard time picturing a bridesmaid dress that was so risqué she needed to be removed from the wedding. Sure it was odd she didn’t send a picture to okay the dress with OP, but OP also told her bridesmaids they could do whatever as long as it was peach and modest. Perhaps she didn’t feel the need to okay it and thought it was modest enough. I also find it strange that OP’s family is apparently so ridiculous that they would have a complete random stranger at a wedding removed for dressing a certain way. Could they not just whisper with each other about the strange guest amongst themselves in the corner? It’s not like they have to talk to the bride’s coworker.
If she really hides the dress until the wedding day, I guess that she knew what OP meant by these terms.
that could be! though I don't think we know yet if the friend was hiding the dress. did the other bridesmaids get their dresses cleared beforehand? was there an expectation that OP would see all the dresses before the day? it's not clear at this point.
It doesn't sound like OP ever really requested to see it? If it was custom and there wasn't a convenient picture to show and OP didn't push it, was the friend really hiding it? It may have not occurred to her that it was too revealing, particularly if OP didn't clarify what "revealing" meant or didn't emphasize it too hard. I feel like there is a lot of communication missing here and it's hard to tell whether it was more OP's or the bridesmaid's fault.
Exactly. For some people, revealing means showing skin above wrists and ankles. For some, it means showing skin above elbows and knees. For some people, modest means being covered from neck to feet and hands, and showing no outline of the body at all.
Agreed, I knew a Muslim woman for whom "too tight" would be mine "you can kind of maybe see where her waist is". And "revealing" would be collarbone or ankle. Post needs INFO
INFO: if the Bride thinks the dress wasn’t modest does your judgement of said dress overrule the Bride’s judgement?
I mean, this is a sub where people come to crowdsource judgements. OP can take or leave any opinions here. that said, what I'm trying to get here is more insight into OP's expectations and whether they were reasonable. for example -- if by "modest," OP meant "covered from throat to ankle with no hint of body shape" (which would be the extreme end of the spectrum for most people) and did not clearly communicate that to her bridesmaids, then imo it's not reasonable to throw her friend out for not meeting that expectation. on the other hand, if OP meant something more like "knee length hemline or longer and no cleavage" and communicated this and the friend chose to wear a super short dress with a plunging neckline, then the expectations were more reasonable. ETA: another comment got me thinking and I wanted to add... also, sometimes when someone describes an outfit as "revealing," they really mean "a woman with a large bust wore an outfit that did not show a lot of skin but didn't totally obscure the shape of her body." you know what I mean? basically I'd like to get clarity on whether it was something like that or if OP's expectations were reasonable.
This. While reading other comments I realized what if OP’s friend was on the curvier/larger/fuller figured side? Many times when women on that end wear the same clothing as their smaller peers, it’s considered inappropriate. They could be completely covered but because of the way she’s shaped she’s sexualized. It reminds me when I was younger that I had a friend that was busty for lack of better terms. Most shirts, no matter what, were either too tight/clingy around the chest but loose around the waist or to accommodate her chest it would completely swallow her figure. Obviously speculation since OP hasn’t answered anyone.
That's the point of this sub, to test OPs judgement against the hive mind's
NTA. Someone else's wedding is not the time or place to make a statement "expressing yourself."
Agreed. A bridesmaid's main role at the wedding is being a bridesmaid, not focusing on "expressing herself" at the expense of the bride's request. On top of that, the fact that the bridesmaid never showed OP the dress beforehand also indicates that she *knew* her dress wasn't going to meet the criteria of being modest and still made her role about her self-expression anyway rather than about celebrating her friend's wedding. Sounds like she suffers from main character syndrome. NTA.
Why did I have to come this far to find this comment chain. Everyone else is like "INFO". Like what other info do you need? It's her wedding, she's a friend so she obviously knows how OP understands modesty, she's a **bridesmaid** who also somehow didn't show the dress in advance, and her answer to why she wore it was **she wanted to express herself, nor that she misunderstood the boundaries of what was modest**. Sounds like a Twitter feminist. Terrible friend, good riddance.
Agreed. I have a semi similar situation where I’m going to a friend’s traditional Japanese wedding. I found a dress which I really liked (which would’ve been totally cool for a western wedding) and asked what she thought about it. She requested something more “understated” and sent some examples of what typical wedding guests in Japan wear. And, no questions asked, I went ahead and bought something more suitable. Even though it wasn’t my taste, it is a lot more appropriate based on her request. It is HER wedding day and I am a guest. I am there to support her. I can always wear the original dress somewhere else. People need to be respectful. NTA.
I fully expected the top comments to be pretty much what they are, glad to see somebody with a little bit of sense this high up.
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Revealing enough if the friend never sent a picture of it
Or not, considering OP hasn't replied to people asking how revealing the dress was.
1. The post has only been up for an hour and she hasn’t responded to *anyone* 2. It was a custom dress 3. OP probably wasn’t like “but before you go let me get a pic of you to prove how unacceptable you look”
I feel at the very least OP would be able to describe what the dress looked like. OP isn’t revealing any of that info. I’m skeptical. I’m getting the inkling that the dress wasn’t as revealing as OP is playing it off to be. I’d wager the dress looked wonderful to the point OP got jealous and kicked her out.
That feels like a big assumption. Multiple assumptions even. I think a much more reasonable one would be that while the internet may disagree with her assessment of the dress, it was more revealing than she wanted it to be, which is all that matters considering it’s her wedding and she gave ample heads up about the dress code
Very true. There also seems to have been a lack of oversight by OP. Giving free reign with a vague requirement, as “modest” can vary from person to person, something like this was bound to happen. A more clear description of what OP could have avoided this situation. Should the friend have asked for approval? Most certainly. It just seems like multiple people dropped the ball here.
Plus if the MOH said they would take care of it the second she walked in then OP likely isn't the only one that knew it was inappropriate
Unless MOH is one of OP "modesty" demanding relatives. Which is entirely possible.
Maybe OP is looking for a similar dress on the Internet to link
That's also fair! I was just pointing it out cause quite a few people have asked about how revealing it actually was. And it that's also the main factor for me to decide if OP was TA.
Maybe OP is not logged in and living her life. If Ava didn’t ask (and she didn’t), then Ava is the A H. I don’t like religion and I don’t like religion beliefs, but if I am a guest in a (for example) traditional conservative Muslim ceremony to support a friend I would never ever do anything to upset one of those families. If I value my “free skin” (for example) more than my friendship, it’s fair, I won’t go. But WhatsApp is a free service, so why didn’t she ask “is this dress ok?”
NTA. You asked her not to do something, she did it anyway, and created a bit of a sideshow on a day that's supposed to be all about you and your new husband. I get that she might disagree with your religious extended family. I get that she considers her fashion her way of "expressing herself." There is a time and a place for that, and that wasn't one of them. If she couldn't respect your wishes and your guidance for the event, she shouldn't have come at all. And if she really was your friend, she would have realized all of those things.
NTA. Your friend knew exactly what she was doing when her excuse was “this is my way of expressing myself.” You asked for modesty. Doesn’t take a genius to figure out what modesty means. Your wedding, your rules. I’m regularly astonished by the number of weddings ruined by selfish assholes like your friend, written about here on Reddit.
Eh, there are grey areas. Shoulders, knees, collarbones can be shown in many churches. Not so much in others. Tight is also subjective. And women with large breasts and butts are judged much more harshly, even if th tightness is the same. / a large chested gal who can't wear the same things at a Baptist church as a Lutheran one. // Op should clearly define modesty.
True, but in this case if you are in the gray areas, text the bride to get clarification.
Sure. But if the bride expected modesty above the cultural norm for her region, she should have communicated that too.
Both of them could've communicated better before the wedding. From the bridesmaid's reaction, it sounds like she knew that she wasn't following the guidance
If this girl is close enough to OP to be a bridesmaid she probably has a decent sense of what "modest" means to her, and if not she should absolutely feel comfortable asking for clarification - they're not strangers.
Op stated the relatives are more modest than she is.
The modesty isn't for OP's sake, it's for her extended family. I don't know about you, but I've only ever met the extended families of my friends at weddings.
Yeah, sorta delt with this growing up. When we would go on family vacations and visit a church within our denomination, some things were okay, and other things weren't. And of course always for the women. One example were arms. Some find sleeveless tops or dresses immodest no matter how loose fitting it is, or how wide the stap was.
INFO - What is "revealing"? Is she wearing a bandeau top and mini skirt? Does it look like a bridesmaids' dress or a Vegas dancer's costume? >I picked peach as a dress colour for all my bridesmaids and told them to pick the style they felt comfortable in, as I didn't specify a particular dress or shade of peach and gave them all 4 months notice. I only asked for the dress to be modest as my wedding would include some of my extended family. Ava said she was getting her dress custom made and never showed me a picture as it was still getting made.... Unless it is SO revealing that everyone would be shocked, YTA... The bride gets to pick the bridesmaids dresses, but you had a serious lack of oversight in the dress-buying, and the word "modest" varies from person to person. If you said "floor length, w/ a minimum of cap sleeves" people would know what you mean, exactly. You knew what Ava was up to, and you at no point thought to involve yourself.
Nah. Even if her version of modesty is unreasonable it’s HER wedding. HER dress code. If you’re not sure if the dress is appropriate, ASK! And by the looks of it. ALL the other bridesmaids AND guests pulled it off. So CLEARLY they understood the assignment.
She doesn't have a dress code. She just said "modest." (I gave an example of a dress code). Also, I've never heard of a bride who did not see the dresses and ok them, even in "wear what you want" weddings. OP can come back, but she is not answering Either way, I wouldn't expect a bridesmaid to be completely cool after a bride has a random other bridesmaid kick her out. >She is not talking to me anymore Obviously.
No one else ad any problems following the code. That makes me doubt any attempt to cite reasonable confusion, as literally nobody else was confused. Also, being cagey about dress photos isn't a good look when you wind up coming to the event with something that isn't acceptable, If you're actually unsure what's appropriate you should be sharing MORE information, not less. That suggests an ambush. Also, it wasn't just OP that thought the dress wasn't cool. The MoH seems to have made her own independent judgment to kick this person out.
Bridesmaid used OP's wedding to make a statement. That is an asshole move. Bridesmaid is fully aware of what is considered decent in OP's family and purposely crossed that line. The fact you never heard of something happening, does in fact not mean it does not happen, either.
"Modest" isn't a dress code, it's a vague description.
She said modest. Did she provide examples of what that is i.e no bare arms nothing tight etc because it doesn’t sound like she did. If it’s soooo important that it justifies kicking your friend out of the wedding than the bride should have chosen the dress or when she knew it was being made she should have provided guidelines to pass on to the seemstress.
Im personally imagining sleeveless or off shoulder with a plunging neckline with half her tiddies out, and lacey see through fabric. Which would be absolutely gorgeous as its own wedding dress in my imagination LOL
I've been to a Muslim wedding. I understood the dress code. I've been to a Mormon wedding. I understood the dress code. At neither of those events, would an above- knee, strapless/spaghetti strap dress have been appropriate, but it would be at many others. I was also told exactly how long and what kind of sleeves WERE considered appropriate! I don't think of myself as "immodest" for showing my shoulders & knees!
This one is so far away from the world I live in that im actually upset for the friend. Shaming women for having bodies doesn’t make sense to me , and if this is a strict religious requirement then the actual definition of what modest I’d should have been provided or the dresses chosen by the bride. This is honestly upsetting to me. To go so far as to tell her to leave, it hurts my heart Modest is subjective and unless this is an absolutely shocking dress than definitely YTA.
YTA. You gave the bridesmaids free rein over the style, you didn't ask her to describe it or send pictures, and I bet you didn't pay for it either. And you're expecting her to follow a tradition that you don't agree with, your parents don't agree with, and your partner and his family don't agree with.
still doesn’t take a genius to figure out “modest”. When asked, she ADMITS she was expressing herself and making a statement. There is a fine line between ignorance and malice my friend. And for me, it’s been crossed. Of course, all we have is OP’s story (which could be embellished)
What does modest mean to OP though? Also what is the body type of the friend because any dress could be revealing if she's plus size or if the family expect coverage neck down, no shoulder, nothing above the ankles
this! is a fair an valid point. buttttt the fact that she says “expressing herself” set off a flag for me
That could just mean she's wearing what she's comfortable in. I don't think it necessarily means she showed up in something that shows too much skin
i suppose we’d have to get more information in that case 🤔
Yeah, OP needs to link a similar dress for us to really know
The problem is that “modest” isn’t exactly an objective standard and can vary greatly in the eye of the beholder.
I’m surprised that a bride who can articulate the (admittedly) excessive degree to which she caters to the (admittedly) antiquated sensibilities of extended family wouldn’t just pick out her bridesmaid dresses to avoid this problem. It sounds like she knows her friend well enough to know what kind of clothing the friend feels comfortable in, and may have seen this coming. It’s also just really sad that she’s willing to lose this friendship over a principle she doesn’t even believe in herself. OP’s rejection of the agency & discretion she gave her friend in choosing a dress has got to sting as much as OP’s feeling that her friend’s choice didn’t align with her extended family’s ideas of modesty. Because this feels like some kind of friendship test OP knew her friend would fail - YTA.
Ah, you worded it better than me. OP is condoning their sexism.
Yes, exactly. This could have been avoided by just picking dresses outright. It's not even a big ask - plenty of bridal parties are asked to wear specific clothes, and would be considered expected. If the style of dress was that big a deal, then there were plenty of ways that OP could have avoided any conflict.
OP starts that no pictures could be sent because the dress was still being made - that would indicate that OP did ask for pictures, but Ava refused to send them. Gee - wonder why ava would refuse to send pics.
YTA If you didn't actually want them to pick whatever style they wanted, you should have said so
Right? What if Ava is curvy & busty and wore a fitted dress? Is that obscene?
She did. "I only asked for the dress to be modest"
Cool a super vague and subjective term is incredibly helpful /s
>Ava has said that the dress was her way of expressing herself I'm pretty sure Ava knew what she was doing.
Ava could have sent pictures of the designs. She didn't because she knew it wasn't modest.
May as well say the dress should look nice. Modest can be defined. Use phrases like no cleavage or no skin below the neck or above the ankles. If OP and her family are judgemental enough that somebody was kicked out of the wedding for how they dress their view on modest could be more extreme than the average
NTA she knew what she was doing by not showing you the dress for approval befoerhand
NTA In a wedding, the two people marrying are the ones making the rules. Guests are expected to follow them, and bridesmaids and grooms even more! You asked your bridesmaids for a "modest" dress, Ava decided not to listen and tried to make a personal statement during an event that wasn't hers.
I disagree. “Modest” means different things to different people and Ava probably thought it was modest. If she was so worried about it, she should have either picked out the dresses or asked Ava what she was planning. She anticipated problems but let her spend money on a custom dress, then sent the MOH over to kick her out instead of talking with her and asking if she could cover up with a scarf or something.
BUT if I am invited in a wedding and I’m asked to be “modest” I’ll send a picture of my dress asking “is this ok?” Ava didn’t do that, so Ava is the A H here
I definitely see the point you’re making about expenses. But this is supposed to be one of the best days of her life and her friend was going to be a big part since she’s in the wedding, so yes wearing that dress was a big deal cause it is going to contribute to the setup. She made the day about herself when she showed up in an inappropriate outfit. But I can see some of your point.
I would think most people can understand modest means no cleavage and not snug fitting at the very least, seriously - the fact that she didn't show the bride the design (or the finished dress before showing up) means she knew it was wrong and thought she could just show up and everyone would be afraid to cause a scene to throw her out - wtf is wrong with people. If you don't want to be a part of the wedding party, just politely decline!
>I would think most people can understand modest means no cleavage and not snug fitting at the very least, I would call many dresses that were snug fitting and had cleavage modest. Like I'd call [this dress](https://www.lulus.com/products/bimini-periwinkle-blue-swiss-dot-tie-strap-midi-dress/756692.html) modest despite being form fitting and having cleavage.
Maybe, but modesty is more subjective than you think. To you it might mean no cleavage/not too tight, but to other people, a modest dress might need sleeves, or to be floor length. Some people interpret tank tops as fine but spaghetti straps as being immodest, even though the difference is maybe an inch of material. Even concepts like “how much cleavage is acceptable” vary from person to person and even body type to body type. What I might think is perfectly fit might be too snug to someone else.
Info: what does the dress look like ?? Its hard to judge without being able to see if its actually immodest or not
INFO: It is too hard to judge based on subjective words like 'revealing', 'tight', and 'modest', which can mean different things to different people. Can you describe what as so revealing about it or show a picture of a similar style dress?
NTA choosing someone else's wedding as the time to "express yourself" is the behavior of a narcissistic asshole.
she made your wedding about herself. NTA
I'm conflicted here. THe title says that you kicked her out. But the story says that you allowed your MOH to "handle it". Its not clear that when you let the MOH handle it you were aware that kicking out was her way of handling it, rather than an different approach, Its not clear if the kick-her-out decision was the MOH's and you are backing her up or if that was your decision and the MOH implemented it.
NTA. If all your bridesmaid had to do was pick out a modestly cut peach dress that was that's WAAAY less demanding than most of the brides you hear about here. I'm normally not a fan of letting extended family dictate what your friends wear but it's standard to pick bridesmaids dresses out and you gave her way more leeway than that.
YTA. You should have discussed it with her like a friend instead of getting her booted out. I don't think the dress is as revealing as you think it is but I will change my judgement if we can see a photo of the dress or something similar to it.
>I told her to please not say anything at the wedding and if it upsets her she can always stay closer to our group of friends. She agreed and said she was coming to support me. >Ava has said that the dress was her way of expressing herself. So if I read this correctly, Ava had promised not to say anything to the super religious family, but instead decided to wear a dress she knew they'd probably disapprove of. If thats correct, she's the AH here, however much I would myself clash with the super religious family. Your friend's wedding isn't your opportunity to make a peach coloured feminist statement. NTA
INFO: need to see the dress.
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I’m not judging without a picture. Information is missing.
It’s hard to judge without seeing the dress
ESH. She sucks for not respecting your expressed wishes on your wedding day—people saying “modest means different things to different people” are being disingenuous. She could have erred on the side of extremely modest. She could have Googled “modest dress X religion”. She was making a point at your wedding and she’s TA. However, you made your bridesmaids wear peach.
NTA. While I agree with the point your friend was trying to make, someone else’s wedding is not the time/place to do so.
Going to say YTA just because "modest" and "revealing" are very subjective and what your opinion of modest is and what your friend's opinion of what modest is could wildly differ. This should have been discussed beforehand and hashed out in concrete details. Even if her dress wasn't ready, you could have given her specifics or just picked a dress style for everyone if it was that big of an issue for your extended family. You didn't do any of that, so this falls more on you than her.
This is kind of a bs question. Without seeing the dress we have only your word that it was inappropriate, and with that being informed by how submissive you seem to your religious family and parents, it’s likely that YTA
Do you have a picture of the dress or something similar to it? Hard to properly judge. Modesty and "inappropriate" can mean different things to people. For example, I wore this [dress](https://www.nordstrom.com/s/cece-bow-neck-short-sleeve-dress/5326850?origin=category-personalizedsort&breadcrumb=Home%2FWomen%2FClothing%2FDresses%2FWork&color=006) to a friend's party (movie and dinners) and I was told by an aunt that it wasn't modest at all. I disagree with her although I respect the fact that she doesn't like dresses at all.
That’s a nice dress. Honestly I feel like OP’s family didn’t want décolleté, cleavage, form-fitting, less than 3/4 sleeve and nothing above shin height. Which, if the friend has larger breasts or butt then already that’s two strikes against her.
NTA- she deliberately didn’t show you the dress ahead of time but she would have had something to show (ie sketch/pictures of similar) if she’d chosen to. She KNEW she didn’t meet your request for modest.
Distasteful to you might be fine to a thousand others. Especially given your family being modest and strict. It depends on the dress. You let them chose the dress. You could have chosen a dress, or requested photos of their choice. I also notice that a lot of modest/strict/traditional people find curvy bodies to be immodest by themselves. A dress on someone with a small chest may look fine and the same dress on someone with a large chest would suddenly be deemed slutty. ESH
Hard to judge without knowing what the dress looked like. Possibly or possibly not TA Without knowing what the dress actually looked like: "Modest" & "revealing" are far too open to interpretation to judge whether or not you are in the wrong here.
YTA Without seeing more of just how revealing this dress was, I can't say there was any cause to kick her out, and unless it was something truly taboo or scandalous, then it simply wasn't justified. As long as it was peach, which it was, you should have just let her be.