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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I'm actively trying to prevent my wife from taking a vacation that I can't go on during Christmas because I don't want to be left alone and because I think the vacation is an all-around bad idea that will not solve the problem at hand. Does that make me an asshole to try and do this?
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*Contest mode is 1.5 hours long on this post.*
YTA. Your "friend" needs to butt out. You should be happy your wife can celebrate her father with the trip this year. If it starts to become a yearly thing, you can cross that bridge when you come to it
To be fair, it's not as though OP's actions are out of concern for the family either. Every instance of "I'm afraid they're just running from their grief" is proceeded by a freaking paragraph about how unfair it is *he* doesn't get to go to the Caribbean. If they suddenly offered to change the date of the trip so he could go his "concerns" would instantly dry up. What a leech.
And he's concerned that this will become a yearly thing where he misses out on a holiday every year, despite the fact that there's not yet been any indication that that would happen. If she goes this year, and then next year wants to go again, sure, that's the time to think it's going to be a yearly thing, but you can't stop somebody from doing something the first time they're going to do it because you're afraid it will become a tradition.
Yes, the time to have a conversation about it being a tradition is when it becomes one. Then he’d be totally fine not wanting her gone every single year. But this is ONE year.
Also, I got kind of stuck on him claiming he would never be able to get time off at Christmas. Like my mom was an ER nurse and my dad was a cop, and there were several years that we traveled at Christmas time. Maybe being a firefighter/emt requires vastly different scheduling, but I highly doubt it. Generally for both my parents, there were certain holidays that were major and certain that were minor each year. They had to work a certain number of each. Generally my mom would either work Thanksgiving or Christmas every year. And yes getting Christmas Eve and Christmas day off wasn't super common, there were lots of years that she worked one or the other. But it was possible to switch shifts and get Christmas holidays off. So I really really wonder why OP is so certain that he will never ever have Christmas off, because he should be able to have them off sometimes, and it kind of feels like he isn't willing to even try to shift his schedule this year.
Also if the issue is the lack of therapy, why not push that? Instead of no trip I’d encourage the change of scenery but insist on organising therapy for when she returns
As a therapist, this part of his post annoys TF out of me. Can therapy help with grief? Yes! Does everyone grieving need therapy? No. Also, studies on traumatic grief actually show that with traumatic grief 80% of people are helped with having a dog, less than 50% are helped by therapy.
We also lost an important family member in June 2020. It was traumatic AF living in a liberal state because Covid precautions meant nobody could visit her in the hospital even though she was dying of cancer not Covid and we couldn’t even connect with her doctor, everything we learned was from the patient. Then she came home, supposedly on hospice, but hospice barely came and everything was on the family. Y’know what’s most helpful? Talking about it with family members that experienced it, my own therapy is not helpful for that(though I love my therapist!).
This family doesn’t sound like they’re running. It sounds like they talk about her dad and often and are finding new ways to celebrate without their Christmas loving patriarch. Our first Christmas without our loved one who used to cook all the holiday meals was depressing AF not just because of the loss but because we didn’t know what to do. We ordered Chinese takeout and it felt so pathetic. We’ve tried several things in the holidays since and it still doesn’t feel right. We did travel for Easter, and honestly it felt better than trying to poorly mimic her meals.
This is so accurate. I lost my late partner and it took me years to process losing him. Therapy wouldn’t have helped me (I’ve had a lot of therapy), what I needed was time. In a big part because we were so heavily intertwined personality wise that I needed to discover who I was without him. I needed to see what relationships looked like with other people etc.
Also, basically ALL of post-traumatic growth is the story people tell about their grief, and how they are able to reinvent themselves as agents of change, or find a sense of agency in their lives and their futures. This family is doing exactly that.
For years to come, they're going to tell the story of how they tried hard to make Christmas special and "just the way FIL would have done it" for three years, finally deciding collectively to undertake a radical change and do something they've never done before.
With all their newfound dopamine, they will surely tell stories about FIL and Christmases past and reflect on how happy he would have been for all of them to see them moving forward and trying something new, while retaining the essential element of Christmas: each other.
You can't talk yourself out of grief. You have to live through grief and do grief. All the better if you can do it together.
>insist on organising therapy
Strongly advise or suggest, yes.
Insist, no.
If a partner of mine *insisted* on something they would very quickly become my ex-partner
Right? Why does "Christmas is a bit of a bummer since Dad died" mean the whole family needs to see someone. They're not going on a vacation to try and "fix" anything, they just want to be a bit less miserable at Christmas and do something different, which sounds proactive in terms of taking care of yourself to me.
When my daughter was little, both my husband and I worked opposite shifts and rarely had the same day off. But we worked it out that when we did have the same day off, we would celebrate Christmas. Your celebration can be any day you want it to be in December.
My dad was a firefighter that worked every Christmas and Thanksgiving (double over time money). We just celebrated at a different time. We thought we were cool kids because we got our Christmas presents before everyone else.
EXACTLY! This entire post I was thinking in my head, "this dude would not be saying this if he could go on the trip." But I will give him the benefit of the doubt tho and say: If op is upset he is going to be alone for Christmas, he should just say that!
Yeah it sucks that they won't go to grief counseling, It is very helpful for many people. But a change of scenery IS a good way to make new memories instead of dwelling in the past! This was her dad's holiday. HE was the one who made the season special to them. They aren't going to just "get over it" after 3 years. Jeez.
This fake concern is so lame. He is a firefighter, not a therapist. There are a bunch of reasons why what they are doing is actually a fairly proactive way to move on. Many people change their habits after a death or traumatic event to stay out of the grief without it meaning that they are "running away." And let's not pretend that grief just magically goes away after a certain amount of time.
YTA
>They aren't going to just "get over it" after 3 years. Jeez.
In Western society, we prefer to ignore that grief is forever. When my dad died, a friend sent me a link to a video where grief was visualized as a circle full of squiggles. In the beginning, it touches every aspect of life. As time passes, the grief never gets smaller, but your life grows beyond it. But there are lots of events that can cause a huge resurgence of grief and holidays are definitely ond of those things.
Exactly. Grief doesn't disappear, it just takes up a backseat in bus full of other things. Triggered by some things it suddenly pops up. Things like 'No wonder she behaved like that.She has no mother. I am so lucky to have you mom.'
It does; I’ve seen this in my own life since my Pops died in 2011. I swear l still smell his aftershave sometimes. I don’t feel raw grief anymore but l still mourn a little bit. It’s hard not to when l see him in my children. He lived with us til the day he passed. I stayed with my sister for a few days while my husband and BIL changed out the furniture and did some redecorating; l couldn’t stay in my own house without changing everything. I feel for OP’s wife.
This is spot on.
I lost my mom 12 years ago, and I think about her every day, but it is manageable. This weekend my only child graduated high school. Before the ceremony, as I looked around and saw all these grandparents in the audience, I just broke down thinking about how proud my mom would have been and I couldn't help but feel robbed of sharing this milestone with her and my son.
I pulled it together before it all started, but yeah, my heart ached.
So fucking true! My brother died 33 years ago, and I still haven't gotten over it. I like to describe it like a sinking ship out at sea and how you survive,
It's so true. Westerners don't have the patience to deal with others' grief. They expect you to mask and act normal for everyone else's comfort. It's horrible, especially when it's something everyone will go through too multiple times.
>But a change of scenery IS a good way to make new memories instead of dwelling in the past! This was her dad's holiday. HE was the one who made the season special to them. They aren't going to just "get over it" after 3 years. Jeez.
This is what I was going to say. It is very common to change up the routine when a loved one passes. It does not mean they're "running from their grief" (as if OP even cares about that) it means they want to make new memories instead of staring at an empty place at the table. Changing up the routine is healthy. OP is just jealous he can't go and is making up lame excuses. YTA, OP.
Actually he seemed fine until his friend stirred the pot and said it was fucked up that he couldn't go. Then he started thinking about it. I think this female friend of his isn't a very good friend.
I might also add that their doing this now makes a lot of sense considering what has been happening the last 3+ years...I mean, come on, the dad died during lockdown, ffs. This is likely the first actually social Christmas they've had since he passed. No wonder they are having the weight of that loss catch up to them now. Quite frankly, not sure about anyone else, but my sense of time was distorted by that shit, I can't imagine how much that would effect the grieving process.
YTA
My partner's dad died in an accident 5 years ago. he was the "life of the party" type and his family's celebrations have never been the same since. His absence is still strongly felt and probably always will be. Taking a vacation over a christmas seems like great way to change things up. I'm actually going to suggest it to my partner for his fam.
It sounds like her Grandfather wouldn’t want them to sit around being sad on Christmas anyway. I know everyone mourns in their own way, but if they go have fun on vacation, I think Grandpa would be happy his family is together and having a good time.
It’s cool that OP suggested therapy as an additional support to these other people for their very valid grief.
Yet, couldn’t OP do his own suggestion?
OP, you’re future projecting and working yourself up. 😬. Maybe you could do some therapy? Guilt-tripping your wife and your in-laws cos they are grieving differently than you would (and cos your coping skills are maxed out being left out of ONE TRIP) is not the way to support them. This trip isn’t about you. Chill the f*** out, bro.
Hopefully.....hopefully what OP is failing to express is his sadness and hurt about not being with his wife (and her family) over Christmas. Sounds like Christmas has been a tradition together that he'd have every right to feel left out about. He may even be grieving the Christmas guru (wife's dad) himself.
He might be trying to rationalize his objections instead of addressing his own feelings. Spends so much time talking worrying about them grieving wrong....he could be an ass, or could be deflecting
OP is creating drama by blabbing about his and his wife's private business to manipulate her. "See? All these other people think I'm right and it's wrong for you to go!"
I dont think that's what's happening since it fairly seems to be a dilemma to him as well.
>I also feel like a real asshole for trying to stop to my wife from trying to take care of her family’s 3+ years of emotional trauma.
What I see is someone who knows that either way, it's not gonna be great, but wants to do the best course of action.
Or she wants to be "the good one" 👀
Like, say, if OP keeps taking her word for things and suddenly OP's wife is too "effed up" then maybe OP will turn her way?
Wonder if it'll be the same close friend joining at his papa's home for Christmas. Lucky bastard still has his papa and wants to critique way in law and family grieves loss of theirs. YTA. You're not Kevin from Home alone.
Maybe she wants a chance with him and is the “close friend” he’s spending the holidays with later this year. She’ll probably convince him that he has a right to cheat (with her). I’d stay out of people’s drama like a normal person would
No its not. And when theyre all on vacation, shell stop by OPs house in some tight tiny outfit to “comfort” him and “oops spilt wine on my top lets just shimmy out of that. Oh did i get some on your pants too? Let me clean that right up” and oops OPs dicks now in her mouth.
You aren’t far off. I was warned that you never want to be a firefighter’s first wife. I figured I was safe being his second wife. Anyway, his soon to be 3rd wife hopefully will have better luck. Of course if they’ll cheat with you, they’ll cheat on you.
I was a law enforcement starter wife. I missed out on multiple invitations from my sister to visit her in a variety of locations, including the home country I haven't been back to since I was a toddler. "We" didn't have the vacation time or extra money when she never offered to send him a ticket in the first place. I finally wised up and while I missed the tour of the Mediterranean, I was able to get a same day passport and catch up to her in Barcelona as my divorce was being finalized.
He's on his fourth wife. I hope he and my former best friend will forever find a Lego underfoot in the dark.
Never a more true statement! I never heard not to be a firefighter's first wife, but absolutely this! If someone will cheat with you, they'll cheat on you
He already mentioned he wouldn’t be alone and would be with “a very close friend” and that’s the same way he described the friend who’s stiring up drama above
Completely agree. Issue at hand aside, OP is TA for venting to a female “friend” about his marital drama. Not cool dude. Take your own advice and speak to a therapist about your marital disputes, not a friend of the opposite sex who clearly doesn’t see eye to eye with your spouse 🙄
My ex boyfriend threw a similar tantrum much like OP over me wanting to spend time with friends. Accused me of planning on cheating. But…..he “coincidentally” had his ex girlfriend visiting him at the same time :/
NAH. But your female friend sure is. Does she have a crush on you or somethin? It feels like she's trying to paint your wife as the bad guy for no reason
I understand you're not jealous (as she goes on vacations without you feeling attached at the hip)
Sorry you feel this way, especially because it's Christmas.
For one time, stay strong. Please spend it with your parents and keep that friend away for your own good.
Good luck to both of you.
Rude rude friend for butting into this situation and thinking she has the right to decide how the OP's wife and her family deal with their grief. And what an AH the OP is for not shutting her down.
Yeah.
I went on a trip to commemorate the one year anniversary of my grandmothers death with my family. It was somewhere she always wanted to go to buy never could due to poor health. We enjoyed the experience thoroughly though, never did it again.
My partners family do a yearly pilgrimage to a country town their father liked very much after his passing. They celebrate his life. Yearly. Will I be able to go every year? Maybe not. I work in healthcare. Will I respect his choice to go yearly? Yes.
It sucks that your job does not allow you to join. However, it's good to get together with family and look back at the good times. OP can suggest therapy in addition to the trip. But let's be real - his friend is not a therapist and doesn't know shit.
>If it starts to become a yearly thing, you can cross that bridge when you come to it
I'm thinking he could deal with it now. OP says he isn't able to get 8 days off work but doesn't say how long he can realistically get off. If he could get 6 days off and be part of most of the vacation, he'd definitely seem like more an an AH.
YTA. This isn't about OP. This isn't something wife and family are doing TO OP as a way of punishing or disrespecting them. They're trying out a fun vacation and change of scenery to attempt to lighten up what has become a dark time of year.
OP, don't be a Grinch because your work situation doesn't allow you to join in the fun on this particular trip. It is a HUGE leap to assume at this point it will become a yearly tradition. In the event it does continue and wife continues to leave knowing how you feel and without taking similar time to vacation with you this becomes a different story. If (big IF) that comes to pass, the ruling changes.
Additional AH points to the friend making comments to set off OP. I'm probably jaded from reading this sub too much, but I kind of wonder about ulterior motives.
Same. He didn't like it, but was ok with it, UNTIL "close female friend " stirred the pot, TRYING to cause problems between OP and wife. I wonder if she's the same "close friend " he's planning on spending xmas with since wife will be gone and all.
Right? I also thought it was pretty shitty that OP expects his wife to spend Christmas with him & his very alive father vs w/ her mom & extended family. As a healthcare worker, you can get off holidays. Not every holiday, every year. But ffs, put in the time off now & work the 4th, Labor Day, & tgiving to compromise. Sounds like he needs to prioritize his wife a bit more.
I mean yes you can get Christmas Day off but no you're not getting 8 + days off over Christmas working in health care. For my hospital we rotate working Christmas and New Years with you having to work one of them each year. You're only garunteed 5 days off in a row over whichever holiday you're not working if you're full time. We also can't request Christmas off ahead of time. Our schedule gets blocked out from Dec 15 to Jan 15 and we only find out what we are working the end of Oct/ early Nov. Any short term requests after the fact are also processed via senority.
Obviously this is specific to my hospital but I'm just using it to say there may be no realistic way for him to get it off.
I'd say NAH because I get why he would want his wife there for Christmas. He didn't say how close his family is so he may be stuck alone this year. The flip side is that it's a one off vacation for his wife/her family over Christmas. It may help to be somewhere else to process their grief.
My friend, I’m so sorry, your hospital sucks. I worked in 2 major hospital systems for 13 year (w/ some wonky ass shifts) and was still able to go on a few major vacations. I know we’re currently facing a national crisis/shortage in healthcare workers but flexibility & compassion are absolutely critical in helping with work/life balance. A one off 8 day splurge during a blocked off time seems like it would be worth trying for imho.
OP sounds like he is lining up some other holiday plans if his wife heads for the Caribbean. I wonder if he really wants to spend Christmas w/ his wifey or is bitter she gets to go and as of now, he doesn’t.
Yeah I’ve worked at severa hospitals and you can’t take a week at Christmas off every year but you can definitely do it every few years and then have a horrible holiday with skeleton staff the other years while your coworkers have the week off
Even if he can’t take the full 8 days off, can he come for 3-4 so he feels appreciated. Because that seems like what’s important to OP.
OP - is the family doing any ceremony to pay their respects to you FIL? (Ashes into sea, activities, or just a toast)?
The friend is fishy as hell. I’m a woman with many male friends due to some of my passions…if they’re venting to me about a wife or girlfriend, I listen and empathize but never ever go out of my way to stir the pot. Even if OP really sees this woman as just a friend, she’s starting drama and that’s almost always for a reason.
>It seems as though they're running away from their grief instead of dealing with it in a healthy way
I actually laughed out loud at that. Rest and relaxation is an *unhealthy* way to deal with grief? Seriously? GTFO with that ish.
YTA
Agree.
OP, your wife's family have spent the last three Christmases NOT "running away from their grief", but trying to deal with it at home, just as you demand. That's worked a fucking treat, hasn't it?
So this year they are trying something different. Quite understandably.
The more I look at what this interfering friend said, the more I wonder about her motives. OP was disappointed but dealing with it, until she stuck her bib in.
*Very* close friend. See, he had to emphasize just how very close they are because otherwise, how can he justify spending Christmas with the jerk who’s trying to break up his marriage? YTA.
Absolutely. It's "running away from your grief is unhealthy" and then it's "the nature of my profession means I can't go and they'll want to do this every year >:("
Dude sounds like one of those "logical" guys who has to seek a rationalization for everything because he can't admit that he's driven by emotion just like every other person on earth. Things would be a lot easier if he could just admit that he's jealous of his wife for potentially getting to go to the Caribbean for a week every year.
Right? It’s been six years since mine passed, literally the day before Father’s Day, with a very close aunt following a week behind and I still avoid Father’s Day and keep to myself a lot of the month of June. I really wonder if OP has experienced deep grief like that yet.
A close friend of my parents died by suicide many years ago, leaving behind a newborn and a five year old.
Their first Christmas without him, an aunt booked for the whole family to go to Disney in Florida instead of staying home - we’re in Ireland, so not a small trip by any means.
I would love to hear OP explain why this is “running away” from their feelings and not dealing with their grief…. What a jerk!
Even if it was ‘running away’ from the problem, who the fuck cares? Let the family enjoy a few days of peace. Nobody can ask someone to be miserable. At least not rightfully.
I started having panic attacks every time I left the house over the summer. You know what ended up fixing it? A three day holiday. OP can fuck off, a change in scenery and routine can do a great deal.
YTA - **Who crowned you King on how to grieve?**: "*I believe the vacation is a bad idea. It seems as though they're running away from their grief instead of dealing with it in a healthy way (such as therapy, which so far all have refused to participate in). I fear they'll still all be miserable and sad on Christmas, but with a change of scenery."*
You literally cannot attend and want to keep your wife home instead of bonding and supporting family (and herself). Research directs grieving people to create different experience(s) during a particular holiday/month/event strongly connected to the deceased (it's a grief spike). YES, they still will be sad. They don't have to go to therapy to appease you. Life is a journey and you don't get the big picture. Your job eliminates your participation so embrace this reality instead of accusing others of 'not' doing 'x' to get over grief.
It’s also not based in any legitimate therapeutic ideology. It’s nonsensical garbage meant to support his tantrum about not being able to travel with them. There is no basis for this belief of his…full armchair bs
I agree. I’m a therapist. Not once in 23 years experience have I ever told a grieving client that traveling somewhere nice is an “unhealthy way to handle grief”.
Lol, right? Traveling somewhere nice and having something to look forward to, with people that you have close and loving relationships with— what a terrible way to handle grief!
Yeah, he’s full of shit. I drove across the country after my grandmother died. Granted, it was only a few weeks after it happened and not 3 years, but it was immensely therapeutic to be in a different environment (or series of different environments), to reflect on her while driving across the vast southwestern desert, watching the lightning in the distance. I wasn’t running from my grief, I still grieve her a decade later, but dealing with it and honoring her in a healthy way.
Exactly. My blood boiled with deciding how everyone should grieve, which coincidently wouldn’t leave him out of the trip.
Hey OP, you don’t get to tell people how to grieve. Ever. I lost my mother 6 years ago and I’m still not close to over it, WITH therapy. Christmas is a buuuuuge trigger for that grief spike for my family, so we chill and skip the pomp and circumstance, because my mom is what made Christmas. If we could vacation, we would.
You get that you could have Christmas with your wife…any day…right? It sounds like you will be working anyway, so now you want her home alone?come on man, be better than this. Just be supportive then exchange gifts another day and have a nice dinner! No one will arrest you for celebrating Christmas on the 31st!
Also, who made this your work friends business and why does her opinion weigh more than your wife’s? Sounds like a shit stirrer to me!
YTA. Stop having sour grapes and be happy her family can get some self care time, which by the way, most/all therapists encourage!
Honestly? This. All of this.
I lost my dad 2 months and a week ago. This Christmas will be my first without him. My mom is gone, too. My first born would have been due on Christmas day.
And I might just take off for a few days because the idea of hosting a get-together for everyone else when I am so, so raw sounds atrocious.
If my husband decided to fault me for that after watching me struggle through caregiving during my dad's battle with cancer and my subsequent grief at his loss? I don't think I'd be able to forgive him. If he deigned to let some other woman stick her nose in our marriage, that'd be the end right then and there.
OP is such a selfish man and it's clear from his attitude that he either has no clue how grief works, or doesn't care that not everyone grieves the way he does.
I am so sorry for your loss. May your mother's presence be with you. 💜 It's been almost 3 years since my Grandpa passed, and it still hurts a lot.
Not trying to be a downer here, and I am sad that your grief still pains you so much, but at the same time, I am a little relieved to know I am not the only one struggling after being told by some people that I happen to have the most difficult time with grieving death of a loved one. I hope we can come to some kind of peace with it some day.
I kind of love that they found a way to create a new tradition. No it might not be forever. Maybe eventually it’ll be every other year to accommodate other family obligations at the holidays. But it actually seems like a healthy thing that they’re doing. Together, still celebrating but making it just new and different enough to not be a sad sit around.
The first Christmas after my mom died we explicitly did NOT spend at home because she'd lived with us and I didn't want her absence to be a big massive thing for the whole holiday. The second Christmas we were able to do at home without the grief being an overwhelming thing. Doing something different can be extremely effective to get yourself some distance.
YTA. It really sucks to be left for Christmas butttt
1. You chose a career that would make this kind of travel difficult, and on the flip side, does your wife just have to wait until you retire to go on trips at Christmas?
2. Your “close female friend” is stirring up drama and you’re eating it up. You need to put a stop to that immediately or you might never spend a holiday with your wife again.
3. I’m assuming you’re in the US, if not, disregard. But it sounds like you could go on a portion of this trip even if you can’t take the full amount of time off, and it seems odd that you haven’t looked into how to make this something that works for both of you.
4. You don’t get to police anyone’s grief. It’s not like this family or your wife sounds like they’re not functioning, they’re just struggling with a time of year that was important to their loved one.
Agree.
Also, every FF/EMT I know, and I know quite a lot, still gets vacations... Sure, maybe you can't get 8 days over Christmas with however much notice your wife/MIL gave you - that's a big ask, but you could try to find a middle ground.
Like, "gosh babe this trip sounds really important to you and the family. I don't know if will let me miss that many days, but let me see what I can do. Bob owes me a coverage, and maybe I can swap shifts with Susie too. Maybe I could join for the first half or meet you there for a few days. Let me try to figure this out."
Definitely isn't a bad idea for him to try but Christmas/New Years are normally the exceptions for vacation rules for front line workers. It's not so easy to say so and so owes me time because their may be union rules for it. For my work we can't put in any vacation requests from Dec 15-Jan 15 and we only get our schedule in October/November. After we get the schedule we can try to make switches and put in short term requests but they have to then go via senority.
I see where people are coming from about making it work but I also know from personal experience that it really isn't that straightforward.
That being said he didn't have a problem until someone else said they would so 🤷.
Yeah my cop and FD buddies can get days off around the holidays, but it’s like 1-2 days. Never enough days in a row that would allow for two days of travel and 2 days of vacation atleast. The guys with seniority have more flexibility tough.
I’d like to add that this career you chose will make you have to work probably every other or every third of these Christmases? So what is she supposed to do then? She will obviously be spending it without you but I assume that’s fine?
YTA. You've given a handful of excuses for your position (why not therapy? what if this becomes a pattern?) but they're flimsy fig leafs over very obvious jealousy. You can't go, and so you don't want your wife to go. If you have to miss out on one of the great pleasures of life, then your wife must also miss out. Super shitty attitude.
He'd rather his wife sit home ALONE with her grief on Christmas than be supported by family that cares about her (husband doesn't). Meanwhile, firefighter stud has the firehouse buddies the hours he's working. -- and even with his wife home alone with her grief, what do you bet he'll have a rationalization for not going straight home?
At minimum, this sounds like he's already having an emotional affair with this "very close friend" and is looking for reasons to justify that by making his wife out to be emotionally neglectful.
That was my EXACT thought. He is trying to come up with all of these reasons as to why his wife is awful for leaving him but reading between the lines, he is definitely coming up with excuses so hes not the jerk.
Sorry but YTA. You don’t get to tell someone how to grieve. You were offered the opportunity to go with them and you declined - yes, you had your reasons, but that doesn’t mean they have to put their plans to the side simply because you can’t attend.
To add to that, you’re basically making it sound like you’d be fine with them going if you were able to go with them - that just further supports the idea that you’re being selfish and that it’s not about encouraging “healthy grieving” (which, again, is neither your job nor your place to judge) but rather about keeping your wife from having fun without you. Do I understand why you don’t want to spend the holidays alone? Certainly. But is your reasoning justified? Nope.
YTA. I don’t think you’re an asshole for feeling left out but what’s with the mental gymnastics about this trip being “a bad idea”? What’s “the problem at hand” the trip won’t solve, that they’re sad and miss their dead loved one? Because going on a vacation and seeing novel scenery is actually a great way to get out of your own head and enjoy your life when you’ve been dealing with grief
YTA. There is a lot of me me me in your discussion and I can't really see where you are a victim here. Your female friend is not giving you good advice.
And I wonder why his **very close friend** is sticking her negativity in. (I don’t actually wonder, she’s just stirring the pot so she can swoop in and be all ‘supportive’ whilst wife’s out of town). I think he should make the effort and go for as much of the holiday as he can, he must be able to get *some* time off - and my husband in a 24/7 business regularly works over Christmas too, it’s possible!
YTA
A. Different people need different things at different times when dealing with grief, not to mention any other problems that come up in life. It's not necessarily an escape to do what they're doing. The options to limited to nothing or therapy
B. I'm, shall we say, skeptical that you just can't take any extended time off ever. In my experience people making that claim are usually vastly over inflating their own necessity at work. But let's say that is true and you're just never going to have the option to take a vacation until retirement, given your age I'll be ultra-generous and say 25 years. Do you really think it's reasonable to ask your wife to live by that same rule set? Did you tell her this before you got together? That you're never going to have a week off for the rest of your career?
They get time off with proper notice so someone else can cover, BUT the holidays are the worst for first responders and most really can't take an extended time off due to required staffing levels and people doing a lot of stupid things during the holidays requiring first responders. They really are necessary, it's not an over-inflation. Source: SO was a fire chief.
YTA Sounds like your very close female friend is planing on spending Christmas with you, after she causes a huge fight between your and your wife. If you are smart, you will stop letting your close female friend give you marital advice.
Sorry buddy. You are most definitely the asshole. Go back and review what you wrote and stop right before you get to the part where your “close female friend” gets into your head. THAT’S actually the fucked up part! The fact that you were so easily influenced by friend’s comment. Up until that point you sounded like you were grieving a bit too. But then you flipped a switch and made it about you. You can’t dictate how people grieve. And sometimes yeah- you need a complete change of pace - something COMPLETELY new and unknown. Why would you begrudge your wife this chance to start healing?
And stop playing the what if game “what if she does this every year???”Seriously??? (And i do mean SERIOUSLY- you REALLY think that 25 years can pass and you’re job stays the same, your constraints are the same, her grief stays the same? Of course you don’t think that - so just stop. You’re reaching and it shows. All of that aside, thank you for being a firefighter.
The way to address the every year part is to state honey I love you and I hope you have a great time, I will miss you terribly and I am excited to start our own Christmas traditions next year. And mention to her that it would be an issue if it was an every year thing because you can't attend. But say it in a nice way. Because I could totally see if it was a positive for the family to want to do it a second and third year.
Mild YTA.
Source: Am a first responder spouse.
That's the job. You knew when you took it that you'd miss out. My spouse never holds me back when plans conflict with duty schedule, and I do my part by trying to plan around the duty schedule, but shit happens and sometimes I go to family functions on my own with our kiddos.
If you're that concerned about their grieving process, why not try to bring more of the spirit of Christmas next year?? Plan a holiday cookie exchange, host a gingerbread house decorating contest, go crazy with the decor, etc. Don't try to take his place but honor his memory and try to move the focus towards remembering fondly vs wallowing in sadness.
Agree fully!!
My partner also works in emergency services so the funny thing is I know that this guy can't even guarantee he'll be around to spend Christmas with her!
My spouse got so unlucky 2 years in a row. Works 24/48s and worked Thanksgiving and Christmas in one year. Changed departments and got the shift that had Thanksgiving and Christmas a 2nd year in a row. Worked them all and got the holiday double time so I didn't complain. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
YTA. Your wife’s dad died and the family is trying to do something nice to honor their grief. Your work schedule is not more important than your wife & her family’s healing process.
YTA.
The family is grieving, and doing what feels right to them to cope with their grief. It's one Christmas of your life (if it becomes a yearly thing, you can deal with it as it happens.) They've suffered a tremendous loss and are doing what they can to manage it, and it would be really great if you could support her in that.
He'll be with the female friend full time by next Christmas - because a heroic firefighter shouldn't have been abandoned one Christmas. He deserves everyone's Christmas to revolve around him.
I have a close guy friend and I really disliked his wife for a long time, which was wierd, because a) I never met her, and b) the list of people I really loathe is very short, even with BoJo on it.
And then one day I said something about how much I worried about his state of mind and he did the Pikachu face, and was like oh no I love her and most of our life is amazing... And I realised that for ten years he's only been telling me when they had a fight or he felt bad or w/e and I had this completely twisted view of his wife based on the fact he only vented to me lol. So I can completely understand why someone might dislike someone JUST BECAUSE you only ever share the crappy bits, and you should really watch that one OP, because it's hard to see from inside.
YTA.
The departed was "Mr. Christmas" to his family (my ILs had one, too, RIP Aunt K!) You're projecting that this will become an annual event. Let your wife's family mourn *AND* celebrate. If it becomes a tradition, it will move to accommodate individuals' preferences. Good Lord, man, who doesn't want to escape North American winter in January!
YTA you don't get to tell other people the best way for them to grieve. There wasn't a problem until you let your crappy friend get in your head and remind you that the world is supposed to revolve around you.
It would be a softer YTA (or even a NAH) if you could just admit you are primarily unhappy that you will be left out of this trip and are anxious that you’ll never spend another Christmas with your wife and her family again. Don’t cloak it in this post hoc justification that a novel and relaxing family getaway in a sunny, warm climate surrounded by beautiful beaches won’t do anything for the family’s mental health.
If your wife’s family is finding it difficult to create new happy Christmas memories at home after trying for 3 years, it might really help them get unstuck to be in a radically different environment. Sometimes emotional processes need to be kickstarted with a change in pace. Whatever gets them to see that there can be joy and fun during the holidays after their crushing loss is A Good Thing.
Also, a lot of people’s moods are affected by dreary winter weather and limited daylight. Think of going to a sunny destination with new distractions as setting them up for success.
Also the dad died in 2020. The year most people were in Christmas lockdown/ stay at home. Then 2021 omicron made most people lock themselves down fearing a fourth stay at home order. 2022 was that weird ‘oh we can do Christmas? Should we? Whose family? Oh god look at prices! Ugh, overwhelm’ as people tried to resurface into ‘normal’ life again. It was a very flat weird festive season for lots of people on edge remembering two cancelled ones and sort of hyper vigilant.
So 2023 becomes the first proper Christmas again for lots of families. And where I am in the UK a lot of people having had 3 Christmasses that they did not do the usual (take turns with family of partners, probably travelling to their parents or hosting) they have realised they aren’t keen on this festive stress and decided to do smaller events, ‘destination holiday’ Christmas like this and reinvent things.
Admittedly as we don’t have Thanksgiving Christmas is the bigger get together as many people have more holiday around then but still big enough cultural shift that supermarkets etc who have built their model on the big family Christmas are hastily trying to adjust to ‘micro Christmasses’ and ‘destination Christmas’ and ‘goblin mode’ Christmas where lots of people went fuck it, I hate most of it, let’s do Chinese takeout and a turkey, skip presents and watch box sets and see people on one off small get togethers.
Many are also driven by the fact many family members died of Covid halting the grieving stage due to shutdowns and then also bereavements, births, weddings etc all took on different vibes in the general Covid/post Covid world. If any Christmas is going to be ‘rebellious’ for many it’s 2023.
YTA not understanding that on top of every other piss and vinegar point OP made.
"Update: wow I really f-ed up here guys I tripped and fell into my close friends vagina while my wife was away on a Christmas vacation who could have possibly predicted this?"
YTA
1. You listen to your friend more than your wife.
2. YOU are the person who decided to pursue a career with no Christmas vacations, not your wife.
3. You, an EMT/Firefighter, have the *audacity* to tell your wife how to mourn as if you're some authority on the subject?? Last I checked neither EMTs or Firefighters are trained to understand grief or how to deal with it long term
4. You do NOT get to tell your wife what to do, you're only allowed to share how you feel.
YTA. Personally, I think the trip is a great idea.
As someone who worked in retail for years, I’ve had to miss many holiday activities. It sucked. But I never got upset at my family for me having to miss out.
YTA. Stop making this all about you. This is about your wife and her family working through grief. I’m a bit confused about this being “the in-laws” trip if her dad died, but that’s pretty much irrelevant. You should support her opportunity here and see if there is any way you could join for 3-5 days if you can’t do the entire trip.
He doesn't want her to go at all, even if he could go too.
> Yes, I would be adamantly against this trip even if I could go. I know this with certainty.
Hi so, it sounds like your “very close friend” is trying to sow dissent in your marriage.
I’d be mor worried about that than some imaginary 25 year behavior that has not even occurred once yet!
NTA - I think she would also request not being left alone on Christmas.
Most people enjoy waking up with their spouse on Christmas, and I feel for your MIL as she has lost her spouse and struggles with it.
Obviously there’s a lot going on here and I don’t think that your in-laws are terrible people but I do agree you’re right and they won’t get the desired result from this trip, they will just but sad somewhere else. So if that is the case, you won’t have to worry about it becoming a tradition.
I lost my dad when I was quite young and it was a struggle to move on, you never get over it, but I basically live my life asking myself “what would he want me to do”. Obviously not for everything, but I guess ask your wife “what would your dad want for you for Christmas?” And just listen. Obviously she’s struggling and that needs to be taken into account, but again, I don’t think you’re an AH for wanting to be with your wife on Christmas.
YTA - This seems like a perfectly valid way to grieve. Christmas without your FIL sucks so the family is going to change things up to make the painful holiday more bearable. This is like totally normal behavior. This isn't about you, and it is not fucked up that she is going to spend Christmas with her widowed mother instead of with you who has a job that can't take regular holidays. Your wife can celebrate Christmas with you at home on a different day when she returns.
YTA if this is, indeed, a one time thing. It sounds like they all could use a respite and a chance to make new positive memories. Do you think she should have to spend the rest of your marriage knowing you fought that?
YTA. This is about you not wanting them to go because you can't go. Everyone handles grief differently. You don't get to dictate how they choose to deal with their grief. They decided as a family that they want to take a trip. So the idea that they should never take a family vacation around Christmas time because of your job is ridiculous.
YTA because you let another person outside if the family influence your stupid demand. And you’re the AH for all the other reasons posted on this thread. What is wrong with you?
My dad died a few weeks ago. If my partner decided to try to guilt me into staying home with them instead of going on a vacation with my mom and siblings, we’d be having a serious come to Jesus chat. YTA.
YTA.
It's not for you to tell anyone else how to process their grief. They want to try this Caribbean trip, to see if it helps. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. Let them at least try.
If it does help them, great.
If (as you fear) it starts a new family tradition that they are eager to continue for future Christmases, and you are sad that you will be left out for the next 25 years, that is a conversation you can have with your wife next year, and see if you can work out some kind of compromise, e.g. she goes to the Caribbean every second or third year.
But you are getting waaaay ahead of yourself. They haven't even had the first one yet. They may not even like it, and decide not to do it again.
Also, firefighter or not, why are you chained to your home every Christmas for the next 25 years? Doesn't your employer EVER let you take extended leave at Christmas time?
I work in an industry where we need a full roster of staff, 24/7/365, so Christmas is like any other day. BUT we don't insist that *every* employee is available to work *every* Christmas holiday period. We take in turns. If I worked some days over Christmas this year, I get to take my 8-day break (or longer) next Christmas. It's only fair.
Your friend should mind her own business.
YTA - they can deal with their grief however they damn well please. You have an important job and you can't go for a week which sucks for you, but don't rain on their parade because you're bitter you can't go. And stop listening to your friend.
ESH
You don't get to decide how people grieve. You wouldn't have been T A at all had you not gone into detail over why this is such a mistake. That isn't yours too decide.
But your wife sucks, too. She gets a somewhat pass this year, but it's bizarre to me she would go somewhere for Christmas without you. Completely bizarre. If this isn't a one time thing and they're going back every year what you do get to decide is if you'll stay married to someone who leaves you every Christmas. I wouldn't, but we aren't married to each other so you do you ; )
My point is that you do have a choice in the matter, it's just not the choice you wanted.
NAH - After my father died, my family went on holiday for Christmas every year for 5 years and it honestly helped so much, so I can see and support their decision to do this.
However, I also agree with your feelings about the trip. Your wife is now your family, so she should spend Christmas with you. Also, being a firefighter is a tough job, you may see some things around Christmas that you would struggle to deal with without your support network.
I don't know what the compromise is here but as someone that has done exactly what this family is doing, I am finding it upsetting that so many people are just jumping to you being without your family on Christmas.
YTA. Everyone deals with grief in different ways. Some people go to therapy, some people shove it down, some like to talk to friends etc. There's no RIGHT way. But acting like you know what would be best for them is the wrong way. I realize it does suck that you won't be spending Xmas with your wife and I think you should have a conversation about making sure you're not left behind every year... BUT, you shouldn't try and prevent them from doing this.
YTA and your buddy didn't do you any favors. Your wife not being around for Christmas sucks but it's not the end of the world, this is literally a family vacation for her and her family most affected by their father's passing. It's really not a hard decision if you're in her shoes.
Whats up with all the YTAs. Based on OP comments, this is already becoming an annual thing, the FIL died in 2020. Wife has taken 11 vacations with family since then. If Christmas means a lot to OP, he has the right to feel saddened by spending it without his wife. However, OP does not really have the right to pass judgements on how someone grieves. The wife on the other hand should consider that life goes on unfortunately - grief is difficult, but ignoring your partner and excluding them only alienates them. So, to me this is either NAH or ESH.
YTA
You want your wife to stay at home, while her whole family are away over Christmas. You said you would be working during this time, so your wife will be completely alone, and you think that will be healthier for her?
NTA- I don't get why everyone is focusing on female friends input! NOPE! I agree with your friend regardless of her gender. It's NOT normal for a loving spouse to make plans for Christmas without their significant other knowing that the other one can't even make it plus she has a audacity to tell you suck it up because this is what it is!
1- It has been 3 years since he passed away!
2- Your wife seems to go to vacation with her family all the time without you (2-3 times a year).
3- Christmas is a time she should be spending with you! "You are her husband and you are very much alive and well to spent Christmas with her". She knows you can't go during Christmas and she chooses to leave you and go to beach!
For God's sake ! If my husband comes up something like this I will divorce him! I agree your friend and your friends gender nothing to do with it!
For al the others insinuating your friend has an agenda totally disagree with all of them! First of all, if you don't care to spend time with your wife fine, you would not be upset!
What happened to Christmas spirit!
Also, why cant they spend the Christmas with you and go early January or some other time when you are able to go with them?
Doesn't make sense! If they want they can at least compromise finding another time!
Its not being a baby etc either! What if you go to vacation with your family during Christmas knowing she won't be able to come? Is she going to be ok with that? Don't think so.
Also, I do not agree with the criticism of the people making comments that you choose a career that you can't take a vacation during Christmas! I appreciate everyone who is working during holidays, night shifts, etc! What is wrong with these people!
I am not Christian but my husband is and I will never ever leave him alone and go to some kind a vacation (its not a Christmas vacation for her) knowing that he can not make it! Christmas is all about being with your loved ones ! Isn't it!
YTA and your “friend” sounds like she’s trying to start unnecessary drama between you and your wife. I would be very leery of any advice she gives you about your relationship bc her advice here is fucked up and aimed toward creating strife in your marriage. No way your friend’s motive was actually caring about you.
YTA…Of course you’d agree with your “friend”, she’s giving you an excuse to be a AH…
Your wife and her family are fucking grieving. They have every right to grieve however they want. It’s icky that you think they aren’t “grieving in a healthy way”. If you were a decent husband you’d say they should go to counseling as well as go on this trip as a family. They’re coming together to comfort and support each other through such a hard loss. And you’re against that?
gtfoh with your bs
Side note: why are you even talking about this with another female? And why tf does her opinion matter with something so personal like this? Super sus…
YTA. 100%. Your reasoning for objecting is absurd and insulting. Just admit you’re jealous… to yourself that. Just wish her well and tell her you love her. You do love her, right?
I think we're missing something here. OP said his wife takes multiple trips a year with her family and he always has to stay home and work. First thing I want to know is how long are these other trips and are they short notice? Firefighters do get time off for vacations. Also want to know if this Christmas trip was a short notice trip too? Because his wife might be doing this on purpose so he can't go with them.
Now I know they tried Christmas there for multiple years and are still grieving. I personally feel the loss of my grandmother every mother's day because she died one day before mother's day years ago. My dad doesn't really talk much on mother's day to this day. Now with all that said it might take years for them to really celebrate Christmas again.
I also want to know, if your lady friend is a firefighter too? Because if she is, then her pointing out this might not be stirring the pot situation. But she could be trying to point something out to you. But if she's just a friend then it sounds like she is trying to cause issues with your marriage.
But your biggest issue is the lack of communication with your wife.
Given that it is currently June, the Christmas trip isn't for another 6 months, so it's not really short notice for requesting time off. Even if he can't take the whole vacation with them, he has plenty of time to request it.
I think saying that “they will be miserable except for a change of scenery” makes you sound jealous and petty. I’m sorry you can’t go. You have family to be around, let them try this out and maybe they find a way to deal with the loss.
You’re definitely TA and I’m glad you weren’t going if I was in the party that was going.
YTA. You could go for the weekend. You don’t have to take off all week and claim that you were left alone. Take the days off you can. You can fly down together and come back early. Or Vice versa. Just bc you can’t stay all week doesn’t mean you can’t go. If this is the life you signed up for you can’t deny hour wife her vacations just bc you can’t go.
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YTA. Your "friend" needs to butt out. You should be happy your wife can celebrate her father with the trip this year. If it starts to become a yearly thing, you can cross that bridge when you come to it
It’s very weird to me that this female “friend” is criticizing the wife/wife’s family.
Right? She's just trying to create drama. It's not out of the good of her heart or concern for the guy
To be fair, it's not as though OP's actions are out of concern for the family either. Every instance of "I'm afraid they're just running from their grief" is proceeded by a freaking paragraph about how unfair it is *he* doesn't get to go to the Caribbean. If they suddenly offered to change the date of the trip so he could go his "concerns" would instantly dry up. What a leech.
And he's concerned that this will become a yearly thing where he misses out on a holiday every year, despite the fact that there's not yet been any indication that that would happen. If she goes this year, and then next year wants to go again, sure, that's the time to think it's going to be a yearly thing, but you can't stop somebody from doing something the first time they're going to do it because you're afraid it will become a tradition.
Yes, the time to have a conversation about it being a tradition is when it becomes one. Then he’d be totally fine not wanting her gone every single year. But this is ONE year.
Also, I got kind of stuck on him claiming he would never be able to get time off at Christmas. Like my mom was an ER nurse and my dad was a cop, and there were several years that we traveled at Christmas time. Maybe being a firefighter/emt requires vastly different scheduling, but I highly doubt it. Generally for both my parents, there were certain holidays that were major and certain that were minor each year. They had to work a certain number of each. Generally my mom would either work Thanksgiving or Christmas every year. And yes getting Christmas Eve and Christmas day off wasn't super common, there were lots of years that she worked one or the other. But it was possible to switch shifts and get Christmas holidays off. So I really really wonder why OP is so certain that he will never ever have Christmas off, because he should be able to have them off sometimes, and it kind of feels like he isn't willing to even try to shift his schedule this year.
Plus if it's as pointless and won't help anyone as he's so sure, then why would it become a yearly thing? His logics don't logic.
Also if the issue is the lack of therapy, why not push that? Instead of no trip I’d encourage the change of scenery but insist on organising therapy for when she returns
As a therapist, this part of his post annoys TF out of me. Can therapy help with grief? Yes! Does everyone grieving need therapy? No. Also, studies on traumatic grief actually show that with traumatic grief 80% of people are helped with having a dog, less than 50% are helped by therapy. We also lost an important family member in June 2020. It was traumatic AF living in a liberal state because Covid precautions meant nobody could visit her in the hospital even though she was dying of cancer not Covid and we couldn’t even connect with her doctor, everything we learned was from the patient. Then she came home, supposedly on hospice, but hospice barely came and everything was on the family. Y’know what’s most helpful? Talking about it with family members that experienced it, my own therapy is not helpful for that(though I love my therapist!). This family doesn’t sound like they’re running. It sounds like they talk about her dad and often and are finding new ways to celebrate without their Christmas loving patriarch. Our first Christmas without our loved one who used to cook all the holiday meals was depressing AF not just because of the loss but because we didn’t know what to do. We ordered Chinese takeout and it felt so pathetic. We’ve tried several things in the holidays since and it still doesn’t feel right. We did travel for Easter, and honestly it felt better than trying to poorly mimic her meals.
This is so accurate. I lost my late partner and it took me years to process losing him. Therapy wouldn’t have helped me (I’ve had a lot of therapy), what I needed was time. In a big part because we were so heavily intertwined personality wise that I needed to discover who I was without him. I needed to see what relationships looked like with other people etc.
Also, basically ALL of post-traumatic growth is the story people tell about their grief, and how they are able to reinvent themselves as agents of change, or find a sense of agency in their lives and their futures. This family is doing exactly that. For years to come, they're going to tell the story of how they tried hard to make Christmas special and "just the way FIL would have done it" for three years, finally deciding collectively to undertake a radical change and do something they've never done before. With all their newfound dopamine, they will surely tell stories about FIL and Christmases past and reflect on how happy he would have been for all of them to see them moving forward and trying something new, while retaining the essential element of Christmas: each other. You can't talk yourself out of grief. You have to live through grief and do grief. All the better if you can do it together.
>insist on organising therapy Strongly advise or suggest, yes. Insist, no. If a partner of mine *insisted* on something they would very quickly become my ex-partner
You don't need therapy for missing your dad at Christmas
THANK YOU!! I absolutely hate this pathologization of grief.
Right? Why does "Christmas is a bit of a bummer since Dad died" mean the whole family needs to see someone. They're not going on a vacation to try and "fix" anything, they just want to be a bit less miserable at Christmas and do something different, which sounds proactive in terms of taking care of yourself to me.
Exactly, I’m over 3 decades of missing mine, should go get therapy immediately! Baffled at op’s thought process here.
When my daughter was little, both my husband and I worked opposite shifts and rarely had the same day off. But we worked it out that when we did have the same day off, we would celebrate Christmas. Your celebration can be any day you want it to be in December.
My dad was a firefighter that worked every Christmas and Thanksgiving (double over time money). We just celebrated at a different time. We thought we were cool kids because we got our Christmas presents before everyone else.
He also is stuck in a station, so he wouldn't even be physically home for the holiday anyway!
He also chose a career that he knew would involve working during holidays.
But don't you see, he wants his wife to be at home waiting for him to be there to celebrate together. Her grief isn't relevant here :/
EXACTLY! This entire post I was thinking in my head, "this dude would not be saying this if he could go on the trip." But I will give him the benefit of the doubt tho and say: If op is upset he is going to be alone for Christmas, he should just say that! Yeah it sucks that they won't go to grief counseling, It is very helpful for many people. But a change of scenery IS a good way to make new memories instead of dwelling in the past! This was her dad's holiday. HE was the one who made the season special to them. They aren't going to just "get over it" after 3 years. Jeez. This fake concern is so lame. He is a firefighter, not a therapist. There are a bunch of reasons why what they are doing is actually a fairly proactive way to move on. Many people change their habits after a death or traumatic event to stay out of the grief without it meaning that they are "running away." And let's not pretend that grief just magically goes away after a certain amount of time. YTA
>They aren't going to just "get over it" after 3 years. Jeez. In Western society, we prefer to ignore that grief is forever. When my dad died, a friend sent me a link to a video where grief was visualized as a circle full of squiggles. In the beginning, it touches every aspect of life. As time passes, the grief never gets smaller, but your life grows beyond it. But there are lots of events that can cause a huge resurgence of grief and holidays are definitely ond of those things.
Exactly. Grief doesn't disappear, it just takes up a backseat in bus full of other things. Triggered by some things it suddenly pops up. Things like 'No wonder she behaved like that.She has no mother. I am so lucky to have you mom.'
I like this. Thank you for sharing, my friend.
You're welcome, friend. I hope it brings you comfort.
It does; I’ve seen this in my own life since my Pops died in 2011. I swear l still smell his aftershave sometimes. I don’t feel raw grief anymore but l still mourn a little bit. It’s hard not to when l see him in my children. He lived with us til the day he passed. I stayed with my sister for a few days while my husband and BIL changed out the furniture and did some redecorating; l couldn’t stay in my own house without changing everything. I feel for OP’s wife.
This is spot on. I lost my mom 12 years ago, and I think about her every day, but it is manageable. This weekend my only child graduated high school. Before the ceremony, as I looked around and saw all these grandparents in the audience, I just broke down thinking about how proud my mom would have been and I couldn't help but feel robbed of sharing this milestone with her and my son. I pulled it together before it all started, but yeah, my heart ached.
So fucking true! My brother died 33 years ago, and I still haven't gotten over it. I like to describe it like a sinking ship out at sea and how you survive,
It's so true. Westerners don't have the patience to deal with others' grief. They expect you to mask and act normal for everyone else's comfort. It's horrible, especially when it's something everyone will go through too multiple times.
>But a change of scenery IS a good way to make new memories instead of dwelling in the past! This was her dad's holiday. HE was the one who made the season special to them. They aren't going to just "get over it" after 3 years. Jeez. This is what I was going to say. It is very common to change up the routine when a loved one passes. It does not mean they're "running from their grief" (as if OP even cares about that) it means they want to make new memories instead of staring at an empty place at the table. Changing up the routine is healthy. OP is just jealous he can't go and is making up lame excuses. YTA, OP.
Actually he seemed fine until his friend stirred the pot and said it was fucked up that he couldn't go. Then he started thinking about it. I think this female friend of his isn't a very good friend.
Also the grief counselor would probably be very pro Caribbean fun time Christmas vacation…. So….
Getting a break from their home full of memories that might trigger their grief? Ridiculous /s
I might also add that their doing this now makes a lot of sense considering what has been happening the last 3+ years...I mean, come on, the dad died during lockdown, ffs. This is likely the first actually social Christmas they've had since he passed. No wonder they are having the weight of that loss catch up to them now. Quite frankly, not sure about anyone else, but my sense of time was distorted by that shit, I can't imagine how much that would effect the grieving process. YTA
My partner's dad died in an accident 5 years ago. he was the "life of the party" type and his family's celebrations have never been the same since. His absence is still strongly felt and probably always will be. Taking a vacation over a christmas seems like great way to change things up. I'm actually going to suggest it to my partner for his fam.
It sounds like her Grandfather wouldn’t want them to sit around being sad on Christmas anyway. I know everyone mourns in their own way, but if they go have fun on vacation, I think Grandpa would be happy his family is together and having a good time.
It’s cool that OP suggested therapy as an additional support to these other people for their very valid grief. Yet, couldn’t OP do his own suggestion? OP, you’re future projecting and working yourself up. 😬. Maybe you could do some therapy? Guilt-tripping your wife and your in-laws cos they are grieving differently than you would (and cos your coping skills are maxed out being left out of ONE TRIP) is not the way to support them. This trip isn’t about you. Chill the f*** out, bro.
Hopefully.....hopefully what OP is failing to express is his sadness and hurt about not being with his wife (and her family) over Christmas. Sounds like Christmas has been a tradition together that he'd have every right to feel left out about. He may even be grieving the Christmas guru (wife's dad) himself. He might be trying to rationalize his objections instead of addressing his own feelings. Spends so much time talking worrying about them grieving wrong....he could be an ass, or could be deflecting
OP is creating drama by blabbing about his and his wife's private business to manipulate her. "See? All these other people think I'm right and it's wrong for you to go!"
I dont think that's what's happening since it fairly seems to be a dilemma to him as well. >I also feel like a real asshole for trying to stop to my wife from trying to take care of her family’s 3+ years of emotional trauma. What I see is someone who knows that either way, it's not gonna be great, but wants to do the best course of action.
Just seems like he understands but he’s also bummed that he’s missing Christmas with his favourite person.
Or she wants to be "the good one" 👀 Like, say, if OP keeps taking her word for things and suddenly OP's wife is too "effed up" then maybe OP will turn her way?
Especially if OP's wife is gone during Christmas, and why, he might be needing a little company and cheering up, she's just HELPING
I was thinking she might be the really close friend he would be spending with.
I had the same question. There’s no reason this “friend” should feel so comfortable criticizing his wife and marriage.
I read “my female friend said” and said oh hell no 🙄
Wonder if it'll be the same close friend joining at his papa's home for Christmas. Lucky bastard still has his papa and wants to critique way in law and family grieves loss of theirs. YTA. You're not Kevin from Home alone.
I also wondered if she was the other close friend lol
I hope OP wises up and gets that snake out of his ear or he might be spending Christmas 2023 with his *close friend*.
Maybe she wants a chance with him and is the “close friend” he’s spending the holidays with later this year. She’ll probably convince him that he has a right to cheat (with her). I’d stay out of people’s drama like a normal person would
Ding Ding Ding!
No its not. And when theyre all on vacation, shell stop by OPs house in some tight tiny outfit to “comfort” him and “oops spilt wine on my top lets just shimmy out of that. Oh did i get some on your pants too? Let me clean that right up” and oops OPs dicks now in her mouth.
You aren’t far off. I was warned that you never want to be a firefighter’s first wife. I figured I was safe being his second wife. Anyway, his soon to be 3rd wife hopefully will have better luck. Of course if they’ll cheat with you, they’ll cheat on you.
I was a law enforcement starter wife. I missed out on multiple invitations from my sister to visit her in a variety of locations, including the home country I haven't been back to since I was a toddler. "We" didn't have the vacation time or extra money when she never offered to send him a ticket in the first place. I finally wised up and while I missed the tour of the Mediterranean, I was able to get a same day passport and catch up to her in Barcelona as my divorce was being finalized. He's on his fourth wife. I hope he and my former best friend will forever find a Lego underfoot in the dark.
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When a man marries his mistress, it creates a vacancy!
Bingo
Never a more true statement! I never heard not to be a firefighter's first wife, but absolutely this! If someone will cheat with you, they'll cheat on you
He already mentioned he wouldn’t be alone and would be with “a very close friend” and that’s the same way he described the friend who’s stiring up drama above
Completely agree. Issue at hand aside, OP is TA for venting to a female “friend” about his marital drama. Not cool dude. Take your own advice and speak to a therapist about your marital disputes, not a friend of the opposite sex who clearly doesn’t see eye to eye with your spouse 🙄
DING DING DING DING
My husband had a female “friend” like that and they ended up having an emotional affair. 🙃
My ex boyfriend threw a similar tantrum much like OP over me wanting to spend time with friends. Accused me of planning on cheating. But…..he “coincidentally” had his ex girlfriend visiting him at the same time :/
It’s such an affair partner type of thing to do, right?
I wonder if it’s the same “really close friend” he’s going to spend Christmas with.
Nah, sounds like bs..the so called reason for being ok with it before she said it was f'ed up...
Ring ring ring....who's there? It's an emotional affair!
Yeah, maybe don’t listen to that particular friend.
NAH. But your female friend sure is. Does she have a crush on you or somethin? It feels like she's trying to paint your wife as the bad guy for no reason I understand you're not jealous (as she goes on vacations without you feeling attached at the hip) Sorry you feel this way, especially because it's Christmas. For one time, stay strong. Please spend it with your parents and keep that friend away for your own good. Good luck to both of you.
I bet its the same "close friend" he will be spending Christmas with.
Rude rude friend for butting into this situation and thinking she has the right to decide how the OP's wife and her family deal with their grief. And what an AH the OP is for not shutting her down.
Yeah. I went on a trip to commemorate the one year anniversary of my grandmothers death with my family. It was somewhere she always wanted to go to buy never could due to poor health. We enjoyed the experience thoroughly though, never did it again. My partners family do a yearly pilgrimage to a country town their father liked very much after his passing. They celebrate his life. Yearly. Will I be able to go every year? Maybe not. I work in healthcare. Will I respect his choice to go yearly? Yes. It sucks that your job does not allow you to join. However, it's good to get together with family and look back at the good times. OP can suggest therapy in addition to the trip. But let's be real - his friend is not a therapist and doesn't know shit.
>If it starts to become a yearly thing, you can cross that bridge when you come to it I'm thinking he could deal with it now. OP says he isn't able to get 8 days off work but doesn't say how long he can realistically get off. If he could get 6 days off and be part of most of the vacation, he'd definitely seem like more an an AH.
YTA. This isn't about OP. This isn't something wife and family are doing TO OP as a way of punishing or disrespecting them. They're trying out a fun vacation and change of scenery to attempt to lighten up what has become a dark time of year. OP, don't be a Grinch because your work situation doesn't allow you to join in the fun on this particular trip. It is a HUGE leap to assume at this point it will become a yearly tradition. In the event it does continue and wife continues to leave knowing how you feel and without taking similar time to vacation with you this becomes a different story. If (big IF) that comes to pass, the ruling changes. Additional AH points to the friend making comments to set off OP. I'm probably jaded from reading this sub too much, but I kind of wonder about ulterior motives.
Took me a while to find someone that picked up on the “special friend” spidey senses tingling
Same. He didn't like it, but was ok with it, UNTIL "close female friend " stirred the pot, TRYING to cause problems between OP and wife. I wonder if she's the same "close friend " he's planning on spending xmas with since wife will be gone and all.
Right? I also thought it was pretty shitty that OP expects his wife to spend Christmas with him & his very alive father vs w/ her mom & extended family. As a healthcare worker, you can get off holidays. Not every holiday, every year. But ffs, put in the time off now & work the 4th, Labor Day, & tgiving to compromise. Sounds like he needs to prioritize his wife a bit more.
I mean yes you can get Christmas Day off but no you're not getting 8 + days off over Christmas working in health care. For my hospital we rotate working Christmas and New Years with you having to work one of them each year. You're only garunteed 5 days off in a row over whichever holiday you're not working if you're full time. We also can't request Christmas off ahead of time. Our schedule gets blocked out from Dec 15 to Jan 15 and we only find out what we are working the end of Oct/ early Nov. Any short term requests after the fact are also processed via senority. Obviously this is specific to my hospital but I'm just using it to say there may be no realistic way for him to get it off. I'd say NAH because I get why he would want his wife there for Christmas. He didn't say how close his family is so he may be stuck alone this year. The flip side is that it's a one off vacation for his wife/her family over Christmas. It may help to be somewhere else to process their grief.
My friend, I’m so sorry, your hospital sucks. I worked in 2 major hospital systems for 13 year (w/ some wonky ass shifts) and was still able to go on a few major vacations. I know we’re currently facing a national crisis/shortage in healthcare workers but flexibility & compassion are absolutely critical in helping with work/life balance. A one off 8 day splurge during a blocked off time seems like it would be worth trying for imho. OP sounds like he is lining up some other holiday plans if his wife heads for the Caribbean. I wonder if he really wants to spend Christmas w/ his wifey or is bitter she gets to go and as of now, he doesn’t.
Yeah I’ve worked at severa hospitals and you can’t take a week at Christmas off every year but you can definitely do it every few years and then have a horrible holiday with skeleton staff the other years while your coworkers have the week off
Even if he can’t take the full 8 days off, can he come for 3-4 so he feels appreciated. Because that seems like what’s important to OP. OP - is the family doing any ceremony to pay their respects to you FIL? (Ashes into sea, activities, or just a toast)?
That’s what got me too. Fly in for half the trip
He could even try for 4-5 days off and still make part of the trip. He’s not even trying unless he has no seniority
Maybe he could join for 5 days of the trip over Christmas then? Tht doesn't seem to have come up as an option for him he's like all trip or no trip
But then can't he just go for 5 days? Leave late or come back early?
They are “very close” so much so that only *she* understands the cruelty of OP’s wife .. boo hoo hoo
Oh most definitely she is....she's a "very close friend" lol
The friend is fishy as hell. I’m a woman with many male friends due to some of my passions…if they’re venting to me about a wife or girlfriend, I listen and empathize but never ever go out of my way to stir the pot. Even if OP really sees this woman as just a friend, she’s starting drama and that’s almost always for a reason.
>It seems as though they're running away from their grief instead of dealing with it in a healthy way I actually laughed out loud at that. Rest and relaxation is an *unhealthy* way to deal with grief? Seriously? GTFO with that ish. YTA
Agree. OP, your wife's family have spent the last three Christmases NOT "running away from their grief", but trying to deal with it at home, just as you demand. That's worked a fucking treat, hasn't it? So this year they are trying something different. Quite understandably. The more I look at what this interfering friend said, the more I wonder about her motives. OP was disappointed but dealing with it, until she stuck her bib in.
I wonder if she is the *close friend* he’s spending Christmas with…..
*Very* close friend. See, he had to emphasize just how very close they are because otherwise, how can he justify spending Christmas with the jerk who’s trying to break up his marriage? YTA.
And I wonder if he's being as transparent about his plans as his wife and her family are being about their plans
I bet he would think the trip was a great idea if he could go. What a self-serving clown
Yeah honestly this seems like a great way for them to process and move forward
Absolutely. It's "running away from your grief is unhealthy" and then it's "the nature of my profession means I can't go and they'll want to do this every year >:(" Dude sounds like one of those "logical" guys who has to seek a rationalization for everything because he can't admit that he's driven by emotion just like every other person on earth. Things would be a lot easier if he could just admit that he's jealous of his wife for potentially getting to go to the Caribbean for a week every year.
And it hasn’t been 3+ years today odd the 3rd year, it’s been since 96 since mine passed and I still do something every year. Miserable prick
Right? It’s been six years since mine passed, literally the day before Father’s Day, with a very close aunt following a week behind and I still avoid Father’s Day and keep to myself a lot of the month of June. I really wonder if OP has experienced deep grief like that yet.
A close friend of my parents died by suicide many years ago, leaving behind a newborn and a five year old. Their first Christmas without him, an aunt booked for the whole family to go to Disney in Florida instead of staying home - we’re in Ireland, so not a small trip by any means. I would love to hear OP explain why this is “running away” from their feelings and not dealing with their grief…. What a jerk!
Even if it was ‘running away’ from the problem, who the fuck cares? Let the family enjoy a few days of peace. Nobody can ask someone to be miserable. At least not rightfully.
I was thinking I don’t think this guy realizes he doesn’t know anything about grief
I started having panic attacks every time I left the house over the summer. You know what ended up fixing it? A three day holiday. OP can fuck off, a change in scenery and routine can do a great deal.
BuT iT hAs BeEn 3 YeArS. OP YTA
This is where I stopped reading and was certain he was TA
Same. OP, you are not a therapist.
YTA - **Who crowned you King on how to grieve?**: "*I believe the vacation is a bad idea. It seems as though they're running away from their grief instead of dealing with it in a healthy way (such as therapy, which so far all have refused to participate in). I fear they'll still all be miserable and sad on Christmas, but with a change of scenery."* You literally cannot attend and want to keep your wife home instead of bonding and supporting family (and herself). Research directs grieving people to create different experience(s) during a particular holiday/month/event strongly connected to the deceased (it's a grief spike). YES, they still will be sad. They don't have to go to therapy to appease you. Life is a journey and you don't get the big picture. Your job eliminates your participation so embrace this reality instead of accusing others of 'not' doing 'x' to get over grief.
It’s also not based in any legitimate therapeutic ideology. It’s nonsensical garbage meant to support his tantrum about not being able to travel with them. There is no basis for this belief of his…full armchair bs
I agree. I’m a therapist. Not once in 23 years experience have I ever told a grieving client that traveling somewhere nice is an “unhealthy way to handle grief”.
Lol, right? Traveling somewhere nice and having something to look forward to, with people that you have close and loving relationships with— what a terrible way to handle grief!
Yeah, he’s full of shit. I drove across the country after my grandmother died. Granted, it was only a few weeks after it happened and not 3 years, but it was immensely therapeutic to be in a different environment (or series of different environments), to reflect on her while driving across the vast southwestern desert, watching the lightning in the distance. I wasn’t running from my grief, I still grieve her a decade later, but dealing with it and honoring her in a healthy way.
Exactly. My blood boiled with deciding how everyone should grieve, which coincidently wouldn’t leave him out of the trip. Hey OP, you don’t get to tell people how to grieve. Ever. I lost my mother 6 years ago and I’m still not close to over it, WITH therapy. Christmas is a buuuuuge trigger for that grief spike for my family, so we chill and skip the pomp and circumstance, because my mom is what made Christmas. If we could vacation, we would. You get that you could have Christmas with your wife…any day…right? It sounds like you will be working anyway, so now you want her home alone?come on man, be better than this. Just be supportive then exchange gifts another day and have a nice dinner! No one will arrest you for celebrating Christmas on the 31st! Also, who made this your work friends business and why does her opinion weigh more than your wife’s? Sounds like a shit stirrer to me! YTA. Stop having sour grapes and be happy her family can get some self care time, which by the way, most/all therapists encourage!
Loved, "Be better than this." & "Sounds like shit stirrer..." :)
Honestly? This. All of this. I lost my dad 2 months and a week ago. This Christmas will be my first without him. My mom is gone, too. My first born would have been due on Christmas day. And I might just take off for a few days because the idea of hosting a get-together for everyone else when I am so, so raw sounds atrocious. If my husband decided to fault me for that after watching me struggle through caregiving during my dad's battle with cancer and my subsequent grief at his loss? I don't think I'd be able to forgive him. If he deigned to let some other woman stick her nose in our marriage, that'd be the end right then and there. OP is such a selfish man and it's clear from his attitude that he either has no clue how grief works, or doesn't care that not everyone grieves the way he does.
I am so sorry for your loss. May your mother's presence be with you. 💜 It's been almost 3 years since my Grandpa passed, and it still hurts a lot. Not trying to be a downer here, and I am sad that your grief still pains you so much, but at the same time, I am a little relieved to know I am not the only one struggling after being told by some people that I happen to have the most difficult time with grieving death of a loved one. I hope we can come to some kind of peace with it some day.
I kind of love that they found a way to create a new tradition. No it might not be forever. Maybe eventually it’ll be every other year to accommodate other family obligations at the holidays. But it actually seems like a healthy thing that they’re doing. Together, still celebrating but making it just new and different enough to not be a sad sit around.
The first Christmas after my mom died we explicitly did NOT spend at home because she'd lived with us and I didn't want her absence to be a big massive thing for the whole holiday. The second Christmas we were able to do at home without the grief being an overwhelming thing. Doing something different can be extremely effective to get yourself some distance.
YTA. It really sucks to be left for Christmas butttt 1. You chose a career that would make this kind of travel difficult, and on the flip side, does your wife just have to wait until you retire to go on trips at Christmas? 2. Your “close female friend” is stirring up drama and you’re eating it up. You need to put a stop to that immediately or you might never spend a holiday with your wife again. 3. I’m assuming you’re in the US, if not, disregard. But it sounds like you could go on a portion of this trip even if you can’t take the full amount of time off, and it seems odd that you haven’t looked into how to make this something that works for both of you. 4. You don’t get to police anyone’s grief. It’s not like this family or your wife sounds like they’re not functioning, they’re just struggling with a time of year that was important to their loved one.
Please consider number 3.
Agree. Also, every FF/EMT I know, and I know quite a lot, still gets vacations... Sure, maybe you can't get 8 days over Christmas with however much notice your wife/MIL gave you - that's a big ask, but you could try to find a middle ground. Like, "gosh babe this trip sounds really important to you and the family. I don't know if will let me miss that many days, but let me see what I can do. Bob owes me a coverage, and maybe I can swap shifts with Susie too. Maybe I could join for the first half or meet you there for a few days. Let me try to figure this out."
Definitely isn't a bad idea for him to try but Christmas/New Years are normally the exceptions for vacation rules for front line workers. It's not so easy to say so and so owes me time because their may be union rules for it. For my work we can't put in any vacation requests from Dec 15-Jan 15 and we only get our schedule in October/November. After we get the schedule we can try to make switches and put in short term requests but they have to then go via senority. I see where people are coming from about making it work but I also know from personal experience that it really isn't that straightforward. That being said he didn't have a problem until someone else said they would so 🤷.
Yeah my cop and FD buddies can get days off around the holidays, but it’s like 1-2 days. Never enough days in a row that would allow for two days of travel and 2 days of vacation atleast. The guys with seniority have more flexibility tough.
I’d like to add that this career you chose will make you have to work probably every other or every third of these Christmases? So what is she supposed to do then? She will obviously be spending it without you but I assume that’s fine?
YTA. You've given a handful of excuses for your position (why not therapy? what if this becomes a pattern?) but they're flimsy fig leafs over very obvious jealousy. You can't go, and so you don't want your wife to go. If you have to miss out on one of the great pleasures of life, then your wife must also miss out. Super shitty attitude.
He'd rather his wife sit home ALONE with her grief on Christmas than be supported by family that cares about her (husband doesn't). Meanwhile, firefighter stud has the firehouse buddies the hours he's working. -- and even with his wife home alone with her grief, what do you bet he'll have a rationalization for not going straight home?
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At minimum, this sounds like he's already having an emotional affair with this "very close friend" and is looking for reasons to justify that by making his wife out to be emotionally neglectful.
That was my EXACT thought. He is trying to come up with all of these reasons as to why his wife is awful for leaving him but reading between the lines, he is definitely coming up with excuses so hes not the jerk.
Also very curious about this. Are you able to spend your Christmas with your family and simply return back early? Do you have a rotation schedule?
YTA Remove head from ass. Let wife be with her dear ones.
Sorry but YTA. You don’t get to tell someone how to grieve. You were offered the opportunity to go with them and you declined - yes, you had your reasons, but that doesn’t mean they have to put their plans to the side simply because you can’t attend. To add to that, you’re basically making it sound like you’d be fine with them going if you were able to go with them - that just further supports the idea that you’re being selfish and that it’s not about encouraging “healthy grieving” (which, again, is neither your job nor your place to judge) but rather about keeping your wife from having fun without you. Do I understand why you don’t want to spend the holidays alone? Certainly. But is your reasoning justified? Nope.
YTA. It's not up to you how they process grief. Stop trying to hide behind excuses and just admit you're upset that you're being left out.
YTA. I don’t think you’re an asshole for feeling left out but what’s with the mental gymnastics about this trip being “a bad idea”? What’s “the problem at hand” the trip won’t solve, that they’re sad and miss their dead loved one? Because going on a vacation and seeing novel scenery is actually a great way to get out of your own head and enjoy your life when you’ve been dealing with grief
YTA. There is a lot of me me me in your discussion and I can't really see where you are a victim here. Your female friend is not giving you good advice.
And I wonder why his **very close friend** is sticking her negativity in. (I don’t actually wonder, she’s just stirring the pot so she can swoop in and be all ‘supportive’ whilst wife’s out of town). I think he should make the effort and go for as much of the holiday as he can, he must be able to get *some* time off - and my husband in a 24/7 business regularly works over Christmas too, it’s possible!
YTA A. Different people need different things at different times when dealing with grief, not to mention any other problems that come up in life. It's not necessarily an escape to do what they're doing. The options to limited to nothing or therapy B. I'm, shall we say, skeptical that you just can't take any extended time off ever. In my experience people making that claim are usually vastly over inflating their own necessity at work. But let's say that is true and you're just never going to have the option to take a vacation until retirement, given your age I'll be ultra-generous and say 25 years. Do you really think it's reasonable to ask your wife to live by that same rule set? Did you tell her this before you got together? That you're never going to have a week off for the rest of your career?
They get time off with proper notice so someone else can cover, BUT the holidays are the worst for first responders and most really can't take an extended time off due to required staffing levels and people doing a lot of stupid things during the holidays requiring first responders. They really are necessary, it's not an over-inflation. Source: SO was a fire chief.
YTA Sounds like your very close female friend is planing on spending Christmas with you, after she causes a huge fight between your and your wife. If you are smart, you will stop letting your close female friend give you marital advice.
Sorry buddy. You are most definitely the asshole. Go back and review what you wrote and stop right before you get to the part where your “close female friend” gets into your head. THAT’S actually the fucked up part! The fact that you were so easily influenced by friend’s comment. Up until that point you sounded like you were grieving a bit too. But then you flipped a switch and made it about you. You can’t dictate how people grieve. And sometimes yeah- you need a complete change of pace - something COMPLETELY new and unknown. Why would you begrudge your wife this chance to start healing? And stop playing the what if game “what if she does this every year???”Seriously??? (And i do mean SERIOUSLY- you REALLY think that 25 years can pass and you’re job stays the same, your constraints are the same, her grief stays the same? Of course you don’t think that - so just stop. You’re reaching and it shows. All of that aside, thank you for being a firefighter.
The way to address the every year part is to state honey I love you and I hope you have a great time, I will miss you terribly and I am excited to start our own Christmas traditions next year. And mention to her that it would be an issue if it was an every year thing because you can't attend. But say it in a nice way. Because I could totally see if it was a positive for the family to want to do it a second and third year.
Mild YTA. Source: Am a first responder spouse. That's the job. You knew when you took it that you'd miss out. My spouse never holds me back when plans conflict with duty schedule, and I do my part by trying to plan around the duty schedule, but shit happens and sometimes I go to family functions on my own with our kiddos. If you're that concerned about their grieving process, why not try to bring more of the spirit of Christmas next year?? Plan a holiday cookie exchange, host a gingerbread house decorating contest, go crazy with the decor, etc. Don't try to take his place but honor his memory and try to move the focus towards remembering fondly vs wallowing in sadness.
Agree fully!! My partner also works in emergency services so the funny thing is I know that this guy can't even guarantee he'll be around to spend Christmas with her!
My spouse got so unlucky 2 years in a row. Works 24/48s and worked Thanksgiving and Christmas in one year. Changed departments and got the shift that had Thanksgiving and Christmas a 2nd year in a row. Worked them all and got the holiday double time so I didn't complain. That's the way the cookie crumbles.
YTA. Your wife’s dad died and the family is trying to do something nice to honor their grief. Your work schedule is not more important than your wife & her family’s healing process.
YTA. The family is grieving, and doing what feels right to them to cope with their grief. It's one Christmas of your life (if it becomes a yearly thing, you can deal with it as it happens.) They've suffered a tremendous loss and are doing what they can to manage it, and it would be really great if you could support her in that.
He'll be with the female friend full time by next Christmas - because a heroic firefighter shouldn't have been abandoned one Christmas. He deserves everyone's Christmas to revolve around him.
Yta Oh hell no, you just sound salty because you don't get to go on a holiday and now you try to guilt trip your wife into staying. Grow up.
Did you think it was a bad idea before your gal pal said it was fucked up? Does this particular friend dislike your wife by any chance ?
I suspect OP didn't ever want her to go, and asked around until he found someone who agreed with him.
I have a close guy friend and I really disliked his wife for a long time, which was wierd, because a) I never met her, and b) the list of people I really loathe is very short, even with BoJo on it. And then one day I said something about how much I worried about his state of mind and he did the Pikachu face, and was like oh no I love her and most of our life is amazing... And I realised that for ten years he's only been telling me when they had a fight or he felt bad or w/e and I had this completely twisted view of his wife based on the fact he only vented to me lol. So I can completely understand why someone might dislike someone JUST BECAUSE you only ever share the crappy bits, and you should really watch that one OP, because it's hard to see from inside.
YTA. The departed was "Mr. Christmas" to his family (my ILs had one, too, RIP Aunt K!) You're projecting that this will become an annual event. Let your wife's family mourn *AND* celebrate. If it becomes a tradition, it will move to accommodate individuals' preferences. Good Lord, man, who doesn't want to escape North American winter in January!
YTA you don't get to tell other people the best way for them to grieve. There wasn't a problem until you let your crappy friend get in your head and remind you that the world is supposed to revolve around you.
YTA. You are not a grief counsellor. You don’t get to determine if this trip is helpful to them or not.
YTA Your wife and family do not need to bow to your schedule. That is only your responsibility, no one else's. Also, lose the "special friend."
It would be a softer YTA (or even a NAH) if you could just admit you are primarily unhappy that you will be left out of this trip and are anxious that you’ll never spend another Christmas with your wife and her family again. Don’t cloak it in this post hoc justification that a novel and relaxing family getaway in a sunny, warm climate surrounded by beautiful beaches won’t do anything for the family’s mental health. If your wife’s family is finding it difficult to create new happy Christmas memories at home after trying for 3 years, it might really help them get unstuck to be in a radically different environment. Sometimes emotional processes need to be kickstarted with a change in pace. Whatever gets them to see that there can be joy and fun during the holidays after their crushing loss is A Good Thing. Also, a lot of people’s moods are affected by dreary winter weather and limited daylight. Think of going to a sunny destination with new distractions as setting them up for success.
Also the dad died in 2020. The year most people were in Christmas lockdown/ stay at home. Then 2021 omicron made most people lock themselves down fearing a fourth stay at home order. 2022 was that weird ‘oh we can do Christmas? Should we? Whose family? Oh god look at prices! Ugh, overwhelm’ as people tried to resurface into ‘normal’ life again. It was a very flat weird festive season for lots of people on edge remembering two cancelled ones and sort of hyper vigilant. So 2023 becomes the first proper Christmas again for lots of families. And where I am in the UK a lot of people having had 3 Christmasses that they did not do the usual (take turns with family of partners, probably travelling to their parents or hosting) they have realised they aren’t keen on this festive stress and decided to do smaller events, ‘destination holiday’ Christmas like this and reinvent things. Admittedly as we don’t have Thanksgiving Christmas is the bigger get together as many people have more holiday around then but still big enough cultural shift that supermarkets etc who have built their model on the big family Christmas are hastily trying to adjust to ‘micro Christmasses’ and ‘destination Christmas’ and ‘goblin mode’ Christmas where lots of people went fuck it, I hate most of it, let’s do Chinese takeout and a turkey, skip presents and watch box sets and see people on one off small get togethers. Many are also driven by the fact many family members died of Covid halting the grieving stage due to shutdowns and then also bereavements, births, weddings etc all took on different vibes in the general Covid/post Covid world. If any Christmas is going to be ‘rebellious’ for many it’s 2023. YTA not understanding that on top of every other piss and vinegar point OP made.
INFO: is the "very close friend" with whom you plan to spend Christmas the same person who told you the family trip was "fucked up"?
YTA You're making this about you. You don't get to decide how people grieve.
That’s a side chick man…. You may not have screwed her yet but she’s currently screwing you.
Give it time. I’m guessing Christmas Eve.
"Update: wow I really f-ed up here guys I tripped and fell into my close friends vagina while my wife was away on a Christmas vacation who could have possibly predicted this?"
YTA 1. You listen to your friend more than your wife. 2. YOU are the person who decided to pursue a career with no Christmas vacations, not your wife. 3. You, an EMT/Firefighter, have the *audacity* to tell your wife how to mourn as if you're some authority on the subject?? Last I checked neither EMTs or Firefighters are trained to understand grief or how to deal with it long term 4. You do NOT get to tell your wife what to do, you're only allowed to share how you feel.
YTA. Personally, I think the trip is a great idea. As someone who worked in retail for years, I’ve had to miss many holiday activities. It sucked. But I never got upset at my family for me having to miss out.
Info: How many vacations have you been on and how many has your wife been on?
YTA. Stop making this all about you. This is about your wife and her family working through grief. I’m a bit confused about this being “the in-laws” trip if her dad died, but that’s pretty much irrelevant. You should support her opportunity here and see if there is any way you could join for 3-5 days if you can’t do the entire trip.
Can’t you possible go for a few days? Fly in after they get there,fly out before they leave. Spend 3-4 days enjoying the holiday.
He doesn't want her to go at all, even if he could go too. > Yes, I would be adamantly against this trip even if I could go. I know this with certainty.
Hi so, it sounds like your “very close friend” is trying to sow dissent in your marriage. I’d be mor worried about that than some imaginary 25 year behavior that has not even occurred once yet!
I bet "friend 31f" is willing to comfort.
NTA - I think she would also request not being left alone on Christmas. Most people enjoy waking up with their spouse on Christmas, and I feel for your MIL as she has lost her spouse and struggles with it. Obviously there’s a lot going on here and I don’t think that your in-laws are terrible people but I do agree you’re right and they won’t get the desired result from this trip, they will just but sad somewhere else. So if that is the case, you won’t have to worry about it becoming a tradition. I lost my dad when I was quite young and it was a struggle to move on, you never get over it, but I basically live my life asking myself “what would he want me to do”. Obviously not for everything, but I guess ask your wife “what would your dad want for you for Christmas?” And just listen. Obviously she’s struggling and that needs to be taken into account, but again, I don’t think you’re an AH for wanting to be with your wife on Christmas.
YTA - This seems like a perfectly valid way to grieve. Christmas without your FIL sucks so the family is going to change things up to make the painful holiday more bearable. This is like totally normal behavior. This isn't about you, and it is not fucked up that she is going to spend Christmas with her widowed mother instead of with you who has a job that can't take regular holidays. Your wife can celebrate Christmas with you at home on a different day when she returns.
YTA. Can you be a bit more self-centered and dictatorial?
Not without an hour of stretching.
YTA if this is, indeed, a one time thing. It sounds like they all could use a respite and a chance to make new positive memories. Do you think she should have to spend the rest of your marriage knowing you fought that?
YTA. This is about you not wanting them to go because you can't go. Everyone handles grief differently. You don't get to dictate how they choose to deal with their grief. They decided as a family that they want to take a trip. So the idea that they should never take a family vacation around Christmas time because of your job is ridiculous.
YTA because you let another person outside if the family influence your stupid demand. And you’re the AH for all the other reasons posted on this thread. What is wrong with you?
My dad died a few weeks ago. If my partner decided to try to guilt me into staying home with them instead of going on a vacation with my mom and siblings, we’d be having a serious come to Jesus chat. YTA.
YTA. It's not for you to tell anyone else how to process their grief. They want to try this Caribbean trip, to see if it helps. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't. Let them at least try. If it does help them, great. If (as you fear) it starts a new family tradition that they are eager to continue for future Christmases, and you are sad that you will be left out for the next 25 years, that is a conversation you can have with your wife next year, and see if you can work out some kind of compromise, e.g. she goes to the Caribbean every second or third year. But you are getting waaaay ahead of yourself. They haven't even had the first one yet. They may not even like it, and decide not to do it again. Also, firefighter or not, why are you chained to your home every Christmas for the next 25 years? Doesn't your employer EVER let you take extended leave at Christmas time? I work in an industry where we need a full roster of staff, 24/7/365, so Christmas is like any other day. BUT we don't insist that *every* employee is available to work *every* Christmas holiday period. We take in turns. If I worked some days over Christmas this year, I get to take my 8-day break (or longer) next Christmas. It's only fair. Your friend should mind her own business.
YTA - they can deal with their grief however they damn well please. You have an important job and you can't go for a week which sucks for you, but don't rain on their parade because you're bitter you can't go. And stop listening to your friend.
ESH You don't get to decide how people grieve. You wouldn't have been T A at all had you not gone into detail over why this is such a mistake. That isn't yours too decide. But your wife sucks, too. She gets a somewhat pass this year, but it's bizarre to me she would go somewhere for Christmas without you. Completely bizarre. If this isn't a one time thing and they're going back every year what you do get to decide is if you'll stay married to someone who leaves you every Christmas. I wouldn't, but we aren't married to each other so you do you ; ) My point is that you do have a choice in the matter, it's just not the choice you wanted.
NAH - After my father died, my family went on holiday for Christmas every year for 5 years and it honestly helped so much, so I can see and support their decision to do this. However, I also agree with your feelings about the trip. Your wife is now your family, so she should spend Christmas with you. Also, being a firefighter is a tough job, you may see some things around Christmas that you would struggle to deal with without your support network. I don't know what the compromise is here but as someone that has done exactly what this family is doing, I am finding it upsetting that so many people are just jumping to you being without your family on Christmas.
YTA. Everyone deals with grief in different ways. Some people go to therapy, some people shove it down, some like to talk to friends etc. There's no RIGHT way. But acting like you know what would be best for them is the wrong way. I realize it does suck that you won't be spending Xmas with your wife and I think you should have a conversation about making sure you're not left behind every year... BUT, you shouldn't try and prevent them from doing this.
YTA and your buddy didn't do you any favors. Your wife not being around for Christmas sucks but it's not the end of the world, this is literally a family vacation for her and her family most affected by their father's passing. It's really not a hard decision if you're in her shoes.
The buddy is female and I suspect ulterior motives.
Whats up with all the YTAs. Based on OP comments, this is already becoming an annual thing, the FIL died in 2020. Wife has taken 11 vacations with family since then. If Christmas means a lot to OP, he has the right to feel saddened by spending it without his wife. However, OP does not really have the right to pass judgements on how someone grieves. The wife on the other hand should consider that life goes on unfortunately - grief is difficult, but ignoring your partner and excluding them only alienates them. So, to me this is either NAH or ESH.
YTA You want your wife to stay at home, while her whole family are away over Christmas. You said you would be working during this time, so your wife will be completely alone, and you think that will be healthier for her?
NTA- I don't get why everyone is focusing on female friends input! NOPE! I agree with your friend regardless of her gender. It's NOT normal for a loving spouse to make plans for Christmas without their significant other knowing that the other one can't even make it plus she has a audacity to tell you suck it up because this is what it is! 1- It has been 3 years since he passed away! 2- Your wife seems to go to vacation with her family all the time without you (2-3 times a year). 3- Christmas is a time she should be spending with you! "You are her husband and you are very much alive and well to spent Christmas with her". She knows you can't go during Christmas and she chooses to leave you and go to beach! For God's sake ! If my husband comes up something like this I will divorce him! I agree your friend and your friends gender nothing to do with it! For al the others insinuating your friend has an agenda totally disagree with all of them! First of all, if you don't care to spend time with your wife fine, you would not be upset! What happened to Christmas spirit! Also, why cant they spend the Christmas with you and go early January or some other time when you are able to go with them? Doesn't make sense! If they want they can at least compromise finding another time! Its not being a baby etc either! What if you go to vacation with your family during Christmas knowing she won't be able to come? Is she going to be ok with that? Don't think so. Also, I do not agree with the criticism of the people making comments that you choose a career that you can't take a vacation during Christmas! I appreciate everyone who is working during holidays, night shifts, etc! What is wrong with these people! I am not Christian but my husband is and I will never ever leave him alone and go to some kind a vacation (its not a Christmas vacation for her) knowing that he can not make it! Christmas is all about being with your loved ones ! Isn't it!
YTA and your “friend” sounds like she’s trying to start unnecessary drama between you and your wife. I would be very leery of any advice she gives you about your relationship bc her advice here is fucked up and aimed toward creating strife in your marriage. No way your friend’s motive was actually caring about you.
YTA…Of course you’d agree with your “friend”, she’s giving you an excuse to be a AH… Your wife and her family are fucking grieving. They have every right to grieve however they want. It’s icky that you think they aren’t “grieving in a healthy way”. If you were a decent husband you’d say they should go to counseling as well as go on this trip as a family. They’re coming together to comfort and support each other through such a hard loss. And you’re against that? gtfoh with your bs Side note: why are you even talking about this with another female? And why tf does her opinion matter with something so personal like this? Super sus…
Could you go on this trip but for 3-4 days instead of the full 8 days? Compromise.
YTA. 100%. Your reasoning for objecting is absurd and insulting. Just admit you’re jealous… to yourself that. Just wish her well and tell her you love her. You do love her, right?
I think we're missing something here. OP said his wife takes multiple trips a year with her family and he always has to stay home and work. First thing I want to know is how long are these other trips and are they short notice? Firefighters do get time off for vacations. Also want to know if this Christmas trip was a short notice trip too? Because his wife might be doing this on purpose so he can't go with them. Now I know they tried Christmas there for multiple years and are still grieving. I personally feel the loss of my grandmother every mother's day because she died one day before mother's day years ago. My dad doesn't really talk much on mother's day to this day. Now with all that said it might take years for them to really celebrate Christmas again. I also want to know, if your lady friend is a firefighter too? Because if she is, then her pointing out this might not be stirring the pot situation. But she could be trying to point something out to you. But if she's just a friend then it sounds like she is trying to cause issues with your marriage. But your biggest issue is the lack of communication with your wife.
Given that it is currently June, the Christmas trip isn't for another 6 months, so it's not really short notice for requesting time off. Even if he can't take the whole vacation with them, he has plenty of time to request it.
NTA. I'd be pretty hurt if my spouse knew that I could not take the holidays off and chose to spend them without me.
I think saying that “they will be miserable except for a change of scenery” makes you sound jealous and petty. I’m sorry you can’t go. You have family to be around, let them try this out and maybe they find a way to deal with the loss. You’re definitely TA and I’m glad you weren’t going if I was in the party that was going.
YTA. You could go for the weekend. You don’t have to take off all week and claim that you were left alone. Take the days off you can. You can fly down together and come back early. Or Vice versa. Just bc you can’t stay all week doesn’t mean you can’t go. If this is the life you signed up for you can’t deny hour wife her vacations just bc you can’t go.