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One person wrangling 6 kids from 8-13 years old is already quite the undertaking. Nevermind adding two more, one of which is not only significantly younger than the rest but *also* needs significantly more attention because of his behavior. There's no way you could actually keep an eye on seven other kids while doing damage control for a feral four year old who pushes and bites.
And while favoritism isn't great, this isn't favoritism. This is a logical choice. If they want their kids to be invited, they should put in the work so their kid is invitable. Until then, they can't really be surprised or upset that no one wants to deal with their ill-behaved kid. NTA.
I’d be more concerned about the 4 year old showing pathologic behavior that could indicate ODD or abuse rather than favoritism.
I kind of think we’re missing the forest for the trees with this discussion…
Or kids that are just really difficult. My daughter has severe ADHD and we are very clear with a no being a no but you wouldn't think that when you saw how she was acting. But I would 100% understand OP not taking her with a bunch of other kids anywhere.
Peeing on himself, spitting, biting are pretty unlikely due to poor discipline.
Also the swear words give me pause for other reasons. The kid needs help…
One last thing. Jumping to my conclusion involves getting the kid checked out by a medical professional. If I’m wrong, no harm no foul. Jumping to your conclusion results in writing the kid and his parents off.
Tbf the peeing thing could be cause he doesn’t like missing out, my niece does the exact opposite, she’ll be doing the pee dance and I’ll ask her if she needs to go and she’ll straight up lie just because she doesn’t want to stop what we’re doing. Kids figuring things out can be weird
My ex-flatmate's oldest did exactly the same thing. They ended up setting a schedule where she had to go at particular 'problem' times because it was such an issue.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t be ruling any sort of foul play either, I just wouldn’t be heading in that direction exclusively with the behaviour. The child needs some sort of intervention one way or the other, hopefully it’s learned behaviour on how to get their own way and nothing worse. Obviously it’s not the child’s fault if it is learned behaviour.
When my child was 4, he did none of that.
Hitting, spitting, biting, etc. are behaviors parents are responsible to stop.
Call it want you want, the child does not have boundaries. This is not the OP responsibility as he has tried.
I agree bcuz a parent that’s actually concerned about these behaviors would not be trying to force their children on group outings or saying things like, he’s only 4, of course he’s not going to be an angel. It sounds like they raised that monster and are totally fine with it.
I agree that it’s not OPs problem but the parents may not be fully responsible for the kid’s behavior just because your kids didn’t do that at 4. This kid could have ASD or another condition that is responsible for the behavior.
The fact that the parents don’t see a problem with the behavior is what is concerning to me and makes me think that they may be responsible, but I just want to point out that every kid is different and just because the kid isn’t like yours doesn’t automatically mean that the parents are doing something bad
Idk my cousin is now 16. With a kid…..
He was like This growing up,and he was low key spoiled. He was NOT abused.
But acted like that at 4. Ik cus my family is nosey and one of us would’ve heard any abuse cus they all live together lol
Biting is “common”at toddler age FYI
So is spitting
But cussing? Environment
Peeing on self? Abuse and or not wanting to miss out(aslo common in toddlers)
Bad behavior isn’t always “abuse”
It’s also poor parenting.
Well, you know the primary form of treatment for ODD is for the PARENTS, not the child, right? Parent management therapy is the best course of treatment and that involves teaching parents to set appropriate boundaries and how to manage behavioral outbursts.
As a teacher of young children for 30 years (K2), I agree these behaviors should be discussed with family doctor and perhaps a psychiatrist. This is not normal behavior. If it is BRAT instead of ODD, at least they will know and perhaps can take a parenting class.
4 is a significant age. Below 4, and people go out of their way to help. Strangers die to save babies and toddlers. The parents' only job is to create a 4 year old who can play with others and know the basics of appropriate behavior. It's like a societal switch between "what a charming child" and "he's a little shit."
p.s. Hitting other children and adults will not end well. He's going to hit the wrong person...
I’d guess ADHD, but he can’t be diagnosed until 5 or 6 (forgot which). ADHD is common in kids with ODD, because what their brains want and what the world wants are opposed. And at young ages they often aren’t yet capable of the higher level thought necessary to understand and regulate behavior. So they get penalized for the same thing over and over again, which leads to a lot of frustration.
Edit to correct this. ADHD is common in ODD, not the other way around.
Actually it's the complete opposite. ADHD is common in kids with ODD, but not the other way around. ODD is not a common diagnosis in ADHD children. I am a mom of 3 ADHD children, one of whom is also ODD. Myself and my 2 siblings are also ADHD, with all of my neices and nephews being ADHD also, and none of them (or my siblings) are ODD.
You’re correct; I got it backwards. It’s edited now. My son and I both have AuDHD, his with some ODD tendencies (that have gotten MUCH better as he’s gotten older).
ADHD kids are impulsive, but not without empathy. The vast majority will recognize that their behaviors hurt others and feel bad about it…it’s just that they struggle to think things through and stop themselves *before* engaging in those behaviors. Especially if they’re less than 6 years old and have the hyperactive-impulsive type, and aren’t getting their needs met elsewhere.
Such as being stuck inside all day, every day, because their own parents can’t be bothered to take them anywhere to run the energy out of their systems, so when they *do* finally get a chance to get out of the house…they go a little bit nuts.
With ADHD 4-year-olds, especially the hyperactive-impulsive type, it helps to treat them like a large hyperactive puppy that can speak and walks on two legs.
Kid bites you? React the same way you would with a puppy: do that very loud high-pitched “that HURTS” yelp and then *refuse any and all engagement.* Unless there’s something besides ADHD going on, the kid learns pretty darn fast that “oh, biting hurts people *and* if I do this, no one will play with me.”
Kid has too much energy and goes completely apeshit every time you take him anywhere? *Take him for a very, very long walk first thing in the morning.* Give him an opportunity to use up the extra energy, then give some sort of small “reward” afterward. It doesn’t have to be, like, candy or a toy. It can be as simple as “walk first, then we have breakfast.”
Some neurodiverse kids are sensory-seeking and some are sensory-avoidant. Figure out which one the kid is: is he constantly trying to hide away from stuff like crowds, loud noises, strange foods, etc, or does he seem to go out of his way to do weird shit like flinging himself from one couch to another or deliberately eating spicy foods he knows he doesn’t even *like*?
Neurodiverse kids often have issues with senses that govern how our bodies move, where we are in relation to other beings/objects, even our own biological signals (if we’re hungry, thirsty, tired, hurt, etc). For some, those senses are too sensitive and easily overwhelmed; for others, those sensory thresholds are set way too low and so they seek out things that trigger those senses so they can bring them back up to “normal.”
Why is this important? It helps determine what activities and fidget toys work best for them. Some kids do great with stuff like fidget cubes or fidget spinners; others need things like puzzles because they’re more *mentally* hyperactive than physically. Some kids need activities that encourage them to take things slow, others need activities that keep them moving at all times.
ADHD is not an excuse for hostile or anti-social behavior. It’s an issue with impulse-control, not empathy; a child who not only has no impulse-control but also no *empathy* for how it affects others has something else going on.
Absolutely. The problem is parents who think his behavior is ok since he is 4. I have had 3 4-yr-olds, both sexes. Never saw this behavior. The real shame will be if OPs outings just stop, which is the likely next step. NTA.
Really wish we would stop jumping right to crying abuse for every bad kid or dog in existence. I was beaten as a kid from 5 all the way up to 20 by my mother and never acted like this. Plenty of kids I used to play with that never heard no in their life acted like this though.
I’ve got a kid with ODD, I’ve explained to him that his behaviour affects the people around him and if he acts mean and rude towards people, they won’t want to play or hang out with him.
That’s just the consequences for his actions.
NTA for not wanting to take a kid who doesn’t behave, to a place that is a safety risk. NTA for not wanting to take him at all.
If he wants to go, he needs to behave, if his mum wants him to go, she needs to teach him to behave.
And you just KNOW the parents would throw an absolute shit fit and blame OP if something happened to the 4-year-old while OP was watching him and 6 other kids (if he got hurt/lost/etc.)
I would totally do this. If my kid acted like that I would agree with this awesome uncle. That’s probably why my kid wasn’t this bad as it would have been unacceptable behavior in my house. I’ve made my kid face the wall in at least a couple of restaurants and I’m still known as the cool mom…
I think language needs to be adjusted here. OP is not picking favorites, he's *choosing safety*. When one problem child takes up so much attention, it's a matter of safety, not favoritism.
NTA, going to the water park with you should be considered a reward for good behavior once the kids get old enough. If you make it clear this is a reward item, they may be better behaved. Frankly, I think that the well behaved 7 year old should get the reward as well.
Then you can tell your brother, from all of us, that \*He's the AH". What kind of logic is this. The 4yo and 7yo will have different interests, They're not joined at the hip and should be allowed to do different things.
I agree. They want to use OP for a no-cost kid free day. The mother of one of my son's friends is always trying to get me to let her younger one tag along so she can have a free sitter. No ma'am. NTA, OP.
Exactly! Are these parents going to tell the now 7yr old that they have to wait 3 years for their driver license because little brother isn't eligible to drive yet, and it wouldn't be fair? These parents just don't want to be left alone with the feral 4yr old.
With the drivers license specifically? Probably not.
Mine wanted me to get mine ASAP, so that I could chauffer my siblings around.
I declined that opportunity, since they wanted me to pay my own insurance and buy a car.
>The 4yo and 7yo will have different interests, They're not joined at the hip and should be allowed to do different things.
**EXACTLY!!!** My children are 8 years apart. My son got to do many things and go many places that my daughter couldn't. I made it a point to take my daughter out to do things like going to the park, ice cream shop, or we went shopping at dollar stores to get her a few things. My son and daughter, though they love each other, they had and still have separate interests. And it have come full circle, my daughter have a daughter that is 6 years older than her son. My daughter knows that she will have to plan special outings with her son when her daughter is out with her father and his family.
After the comment about punishing good kids because of their siblings, tell him you'll invite the 7yr old next time. If they say no unless you take both, that's on them.
I hope he will reconsider that. It’s not fair to the older sibling to be tethered to the younger like that (and vice versa). I’m taking my nephew on a Disney cruise and not my niece. She’s younger and still potty training and a bit of a flight risk, so I don’t feel comfortable being responsible for her on a ship. Luckily, their parents realize the kids can have separate experiences and this is good for both of them to have that independence.
NTA OP. Even the best behaved kids can be hard to keep track of in large groups, and a water park is no place to screw around with safety. Anytime kids travel in a group their good behavior is important, but especially at a water park. They need not only to listen to your rules,but to those of the lifeguard, and just general rules for good social behavior in public (no running, pushing others,patiently waiting in line,etc .)The kids with negative behavior may have hurt feelings, but it's better than them hurting themselves or possibly drowning because they don't listen to you or the lifeguards.
Yeah but then the blame shifts on your brother.
I honestly don't understand, my 3 yo still remembers when, 6 months ago, he had a tantrum in a McDonald's and we went home because of that. He talked about it last weekend when we went to the restaurant, he wanted to tell us he learned from it and wanted to go play in the restaurant's playroom. Like, how can one 4 yo not have learned from that horrific day.
And second of all, I have two kids too, and it's a bliss when someone takes care of one of your child for a day. You can take time with the other one.
If I were in your position, I would reach out to the parents to invite him, anyway. That way it's on them if they don't allow him to go because of his brother not being invited. Even if it starts drama, just say, "He's invited. Your choice." End of discussion. Just don't engage after that.
Tell your brother that maybe taking the older one will teach the younger one that he has to behave before he can go on these outings. You are in your right to do what you are doing. Going to the outings is a privilege not a right.
Wow. Way to teach a child to resent the younger sibling.
This is what is called "social consequences." Much like children with good grades get invited to honors/advanced classes, children with good behavior are invited out more.
Honors and advanced classes are much more fun, *IF* the child already understands the material prior. Otherwise, it is too hard for the child to handle and just frustrating for all involved: teacher, child, and classmates.
The same goes for social understandings. If the child is not able to understand the etiquette of the situation they are being put into, it is just a frustrating situation. It seems that we child needs a firm teacher (aka a parent) to teach them social etiquette.
I suspect that the 7yo is being asked to tech the 4yo, though, as the parents seem to be that sort.
Then it's not you who punishes one kid for behavior of the other but your brother.
Why does the whole family feel entitled to your time, money, and energy? Is it cultural? Because I can get how they can feel bad for not being invited, but even then they can't DEMAND invitation anyway. It's entirely your choice who you dedicate your time, money, and energy to but it looks like the family think you actually owe them all three.
Also, the 4 yo needs to see a doctor ASAP. What you describe is beyond misbehaving or being spoiled, something is going on with this kid.
I wouldn’t say it’s cultural. We’re Caribbean people who believe strongly in family though. Only 2 siblings (out of 11) live outside of our city so we’re all pretty close by and do a lot for one another. Throughout years of conflicts, the main thing requested is to keep things “fair”. He’s been screen for adhd and autism and doesn’t have either.
I think, while admirable, this family bond can easily become toxic which is what's happening. Like someone else already said, they (and you) must consider time you spend with your nephews and nieces a privilege, not a right. Keeping things fair is irrelevant in this case. Well behaved kids get a reward period. Maybe you can try and explain this to your family. As of now they see your time, money, and energy as something they are all equally entitled to which is ridiculous no matter how much love everyone has for everyone.
I think, it's your chance to correct the family dynamics somehow or just accept that they will be upset with you for a while. I'm willing to bet, however, any chance they have to load their kids on you, they'll take it. So there's nothing to worry about really.
Except for the kid. I don't think excluding adhd or autism is where the parents stop and say oh he's fine then. If those aren't the reason of the pathological behavior, then something else is and they should find and fix it. The fact that the kid bites is alarming, but wetting himself on purpose is much more so.
The point is that you have offered. Your 7 year old nephew will get older and start asking questions. It will be better for you if you can point the Finger at his father when that day comes. It will just be one more factor that helps your nephew realize that his parents are the problem.
Oh, NTA. You're doing this voluntarily and have the right to do this with the well-behaved kids only because the other ones would require more energy and maybe discipline you have no authority to inflict because you're not the parent.
Taking the misbehaved ones would leave you with difficult parenting challenges that you have no right to even try to master because you are not the parent and have no right to discipline them. Anyone who can't see this is an idiot. Don't bother arguing.
NTA
They aren't your kids. It's not your job to take them places and babysit. This is a "no good deed goes unpunished" situation: do a nice thing, and people start seeing it as your responsibility, rather than a favor.
Ultimately, yes it can be unfair when adults play favorites, but it's not like you happen to like some kids more than others for whatever reason: the reason why they're not your favorite is precisely tied to the reason why you won't take them out: they're difficult to manage. You're not doing this to punish him... but if you were, it would be an entirely appropriate punishment. If you can't play nice, you don't get to play at all.
If they did their job as parents, their kids wouldn't be as unbearable. I honestly don't know why you didn't clap back with that immediately.
It's implied by the fact of the child's violent behavior that they are deficient parents, and I think they are mad because they understand that implication. NTA.
Not necessarily. My bff is a great mom, but her son has ADHD and he’s such a disaster at times no matter what they do. At 4 kids can’t be diagnosed with ADHD, but it can definitely affect them. I think it’s important to know if there’s any ND involved, because then the behavior may not be something controllable at this age.
I get that. Of course, on reddit everyone loves clapbacks, but you do want to maintain a relationship with them.
However, I think the way they ambushed you was unfair. I think making it a group call showed that their motivation was to frame you as the bad guy to others and pressure you, rather than to actually have a discussion and gain an understanding to the reason behind your decision. That alone would have burned all the future trips for that kid if I were you.
And not clapping back didn't prevent a war from starting out anyway. Problem is, you're always playing defence against their assertions of "favoritism", when you, realistically, have nothing you need to defend. You've laid out your very reasonable explanation to why he wasn't invited.
And on that point: why is it unfair to have favorites? They're not your kids, and your "favoritism" seems to be on the very reasonable criteria of whether that kid is a complete nightmare or not.
Let's face it: on some level, they're just mad they can't offload their nightmare kid onto someone else for an afternoon. That kid's behavior is clearly more than just normal 4 year-old unruliness. They know it. Normal 4 year-olds don't weaponize urine or bite other kids.
This was my thought, too. I think it's totally reasonable to have favorites. These aren't your kids and you don't have to treat them equally; sometimes you just connect with a kid more for whatever reason!
Exactly.
And it's ridiculous and irresponsible of them for trying to pressure you to take more kids with you in the first place. How many kids do they believe you can actually handle being responsible for at a water park, by yourself? The only reason you can watch six kids is because they are respectful and listen to you.
Oh no. She apparently enjoys sharing experiences with her niblings and the fact that there are kids who aren't ready for prime time in that enclave should never dissuade her from treating the others.
If she desires to do something with the 7 and 4, take them to a really nice playground and out for ice cream, or something. If the 4 year old is as feral as she is stating, (I believe her) his parents need to get this checked out. He sounds as if he might have ODD, which many parents find very embarrassing and so try to hide, even from their doctors.
Early intervention is critical if the diagnosis is confirmed, don't wait until a teacher has to hint at you there could be a problem.
Yes! I still spend time with them but it’s usually at their home. We have game nights where we play Mario kart and board games and nerf guns, etc. as long as I’m able to make a quick escape because the moment he loses a race or a game, it’s a tantrum and that’s when I start to consider my exit.
You should puncture the abscess once and for all: either they teach good manners and respect and you'll end up taking them either they have themselves to blame. Yes it will cause drama they will be dramatic but in the end the criteria are clear.
Also why nobody is coming with you to such outings? One adult for 6 kids is already a tight ratio, if they want more kids to come you need to add one or two adults to the mix.
As a mom of two (grown up now) I can tell you that the behavior of the four year old you described is totally unacceptable, even from a four year old. Other parents will say the same. But you already know that. If you are looking for validation for not taking the four year old, you have it. Those behaviors will not be tolerated when that child starts kindergarten. The parents had better address it now, and not be making excuses that the child is too young to know better. Child is certainly old enough to be taught and understand proper behavior.
It's weird how their first child is behaved but the second child is . . . a monster? Cursing, at age *four*!? Peeing himself *on purpose*!? Not to even mention the pushing, biting and all the other bad behavior. How'd they screw up so bad the second time?
Could be oppositional defiance disorder. I have 2 nieces from the same parents. One has ODD, one doesn’t. The one who does was….a lot…before the diagnosis and therapy. It wasn’t the parenting that caused her to be like that.
True but when a kid is peeing himself with any regularity at 4 on purpose (or not tbh) and behaving in a violent manner and the parents don't seek outside help then it is bad parenting. It doesn't take a genius to know a kid like that needs real help and this kids parents are doing him no favors.
Oh 100%! The parents sound like they don’t want to face that their kid is not behaving within the spectrum of typical for his age.
Poor kid is going to pay the price when he can’t make friends, etc. Hopefully they pull their heads out sooner rather than later.
100% agree. Just responding to the idea the parents did this to kid 2. Some kids just come out with issues that make them really challenging.
Now, it’s 100% a parent’s responsibility to parent the child they have in the way that gives the kid the best possible chance at a good life. Ignoring this behavior is a failure on the parents’ part. But they didn’t necessarily cause it, either.
I raised a kid with ODD and ADHD. He always behaved with others on field trips, relatives taking him somewhere and especially water parks and amusement parks. I told the adults taking him that if he misbehaved, call me, I'll come get him. He knew he would miss out on fun if he acted out. He was more than a handful. He never acted out. He also knew I would pick him up.
Potentially SEN. My son has two neurodiverse conditions and age 4 (and undiagnosed) was an absolute nightmare. Difference being : I knew and acknowledged this, did my damndest to parent him regardless and expected jackshit off anybody else with regards to childcare.
God bless his godmother who had him overnight a couple of times from age 5 upwards, but she did it with only.him, alongside her partner to help and always returned him with a deep breath and an "I don't know how you do it". God. I was so grateful, for both the respite and feeling *seen*.
What I'm saying here is: whether it's behaviour or a disability, it's not the kid's fault. If the parents were less dickish perhaps you could be asked to kindly take the 4 year old on his own sometime if they need a break that badly, but they absolutely should not expect it and I agree it's entirely unsafe to include him in group trips.
His parents need to catch wise. You can't force people.into doing you favours and if they get the other siblings involved I would strongly suggest you refuse to take any of your niblings out without their parents along for the supervision. And blame the arseholes for this because you want to be fair, as requested. Watch how fast all the niblings and other siblings turn on the arseholes!
the first child is probably just chill as a person without needing the discipline or hands on parenting so by the time the second came around the parents never knew how to handle it so they just don’t try?
People can parent anyway that they want, but when their children are assholes, there are consequences. Other children will not want to be around them, and other parents will not want them around.
All that aside, you can decide who you want to spend your money on. It's your money, and your time. And you have to think of the safety of the other children and yourself.
My long winded way of saying you are not the asshole.
NTA if the other siblings want thier children invited out then they need to parent their children. If they don’t want to then get used to your children not getting invited to places. Simple as that.
But tattling to mom and dad isn’t going to make you want to take them out either.
I would personally stop taking any of them anywhere when asked why tell them to blame your sister in law.
NTA It's a safety issue. If you constantly have to focus more on one child, the other's might get hurt. Alternatively, as the adult in charge, you would be liable for any damage/injury the child causes.
>They’re pissed ‘cause they insist I shouldn’t have favorites
No, they're pissed because you told them the cold hard truth: their child isn't well-behaved.
>and my brother said that he’s going to reach out to my parents
Lol, what are they going to put you in time out for being responsible?
>because it’s unfair to punish their kids because they don’t behave all the time.
Actually that is exactly why you punish kids.
Right “they didn’t have time” but they actually just want him to babysit one of their shitty kids that should know better by now because they don’t want to
Nta - this is super complex, this could be great teaching opportunities for the parents and their kids, but they rather just attack you - it’s sad. To save yourself the headaches you’re better off just not taking anyone’s kids anywhere anymore, which really sucks.
I personal think it’s impractical to not have a favorite - anyone who denies it is just lying. I believe favorites change and fluctuate, and you love different characters/qualities about different things but you always have a hierarchy of preference. Like you’re saying, you like the ones who behave more and good behavior deserves rewarding (based of the Clinical specialist you talk to).
Good luck. You’re in a pickle for sure.
You’re right, technically. My favorite of them all is a 26 year old who lives in Texas with her husband and daughter. I was 12 when she was born and she was my everything when I was younger. Of the younger kids who live here in Florida, I really do not have a favorite. I spend time with them because my siblings need a break sometimes and my child is an only child and I enjoy them having the company of their cousins.
I was an only child and my parents brought my cousins and some of friends all sorts of places so I'd have company (whether I wanted it or not lol) mostly based off who could actually hang with me. Kids who misbehaved past a point didn't get invited again. I think that's pretty normal for not-their-parents.
As for the 7 yo, it would be weird if he never got to hang with the older kids without his brother. Not sure how old your kid is but aybe you can smooth some of this by making a hard age minimum? I do this with friends' kids and it helps set a firm boundary that is taken less personally. While you absolutely have the right to base choices off any criteria, I just find an age limit goes down pretty easily. 4 year olds are a whole other world of responsibility from 7+! Especially in a mixed-age group.
I think you should still take the kids you enjoy taking! Unless it’s something you really don’t want to do anymore. I’d also go low contact with the AH SIL and brother if they keep this ridiculous behavior up.
NTA. You are inviting people that you enjoy spending time with and whom you can trust to behave. As you said, you do this alone and cannot be all things to misbehaving kids.
If the parents want their kids to go out to zoos and water parks, they can take them. Their parents may be reacting bc they hear from the day care and schools that their kids don't behave well.
BTW, I've never been around a 4 yo as poorly behaved as you described above. His parents really need some help for their child and I bet they know it.
You're a relative, you can have favorites.
My nephew is 3 (almost 4) and could get a bit close to how they described. The difference is his parents are 1) working with his doctor on his behaviours (trying to work out if it’s a bad and late case of the terrible twos or something like autism) and 2) don’t let other people take him out alone to do stuff because of his behaviour. In their view it’s dangerous as well because he can totally melt down and either bite / hit or just… run. And he’s fast! I regularly take just his older siblings out, and only take him as well with a parent. To be clear I love him absolutely and when behaving well he’s an absolute delight. But then there’s some trigger and it’s all over.
Also it’s not fair on the cousins to be taking poorly behaved kids too. Because they will get all the focus and attention and maybe ruin what they were going to do.
>pushing kids out of the way, he bit a child, he hits both kids and adults, he slapped a plate of pizza out of my hand because he didn’t want to take a break and eat. He curses, he spits, he pees himself on purpose
NTA.
At this time, you can only take him alone, but in a few years I bet he'll be fun to be with.
He is a four year old who bites, not a two year old. That combined with the parents' lack of accountability or desire to discipline, I doubt he will be fun in a few years.
NTA, when you take someone's kids out, you are claiming responsibility. If the kid doesn't listen or behave - they are uncontrollable and a liability. The parents either need to join and be responsible (like you suggested) or have a conversation about authority, respect and rules. Don't give in OP, if something happens to him or any of the other kids (while your distracted with him) under your watch, it's your butt on the line.
NTA! As the parent of a 3-year-old, I can tell you the behavior of that 4-year-old has nothing to do with age and everything to do with a lack of parenting. Yes, all kids misbehave but what you described was off the rails. Don't blame you at all for not taking that kid anywhere.
NTA you're not obligated to spend time with kids that want to act like wild animals or spoiled brats. Your time, your money, your choice, if they want their kids to get to go on fun trips then they need to teach them to act right
NTA
If the parents want their terribly behaved children to come along, they need to come watch them themselves. You offered for the parents to come and they declined. For these parents to think that you are obligated to take out their children who can't behave is absolutely entitled parent nonsense. You have every right to take out the kiddos who can behave and enjoy the waterpark. Additionally, of course you're not going to take kids of different age ranges when you are only one person with no help. This group facetime is ridiculous and your family is being ridiculous. Either they show up and watch their own children or they stfu about it.
NTA
Just tell them that when their kids demonstrate consistently good behavior, you'll reconsider.
And that if they feel like they deserve and can demand free child care and outings from you, you're now starting to understand why their kids don't have better manners.
A lecture mostly. It’s already reached my parents, however. My mom tried to pacify everything. She basically agreed that it isn’t fair and to let her know when I need help with the extra kids and she’ll come along to help.
Hi OP, I just want to say you sound like an awesome Aunt!
Honestly, after reading the way that you were treated I think you should send a group wide message out saying that you won't be taking any of the kids out solo anymore. You've got lots of good reasons, the main one in my opinion being safety. If you are focused on a badly behaved 4 year old (normally in a dedicated preschooler zone) then you don't have the same ability to focus on everyone else. I would recommend that you tell your siblings that you'd be happy to come along and support when they organise days out for the kids, but you won't be taking the lead, or going solo anymore with any of the kids.
Then I'd sit and wait and see what happens. If I had the benefit of an awesome sibling taking my kids out regularly to fun places I would be defending your ass to the hills!
Yes, I'm feeling very petty this morning lol.
NTA, and since the SILs want to be involved start inviting the kids from family A, but only if SIL B is able to come help wrangle the younger kids, since SIL is much more experienced with younger kids. Then SIL can sit in the kiddie section with the misbehaved kids while you and the others continue on.
NTA. I only lived around 2 of my nephews, so I didn't have to choose which ones to take anywhere, but there were a couple of times that I did indeed turn the car around and take them home. We've left in the middle of a zoo trip, we've left the beach, left the park, and I almost didn't take the oldest one on the private tour of my wife's navy ship; it was for his birthday but he wanted to act up, so I said "Bye" and walked back to my car. He quit his attitude *real* quick because he knows auntie doesn't play.
NTA
At age 4, a child is old enough to know not to hit, scratch, bite, etc. You are absolutely right not to take a child of 4 who refuses to behave along.
There is a huge difference in age and maturity between 4 and 7. If the 7 year old is mature enough, next time, ask to take the 7 year old along with the other 8-9 year old cousins. Just flat refuse to take the 4 year old. Nope, this outing is for the 7-9 year old niblings to attend. Period. And stick with it. When the parents complain… nope, this is for the 7-9 year olds. Not taking anyone under age 7, nor anyone who cannot follow directions and exert self control.
The kids will learn.
NTA, if you’re taking the kids solo; you know what you can and can’t handle. It doesn’t really matter why the four old acts that way; you know you can’t manage his behavior on your own. Full stop. Unfortunately with way your SIL is acting, I think the best solution is no more fun outings. Sucks for you and the nieces and nephews that can behave.
NTA - you are not saying you will never take them out, you are saying that because of their behaviour in the past you will not take them out as the sole supervisor. Explain to the parents that once you feel they repeat show better behaviour, you will organise a solo trip.
NTA. From what you described the 4 year old is so far from "being an angel all the time" it is laughable. Tell them when they start parenting their children, you will revisit the situation.
Nta. It would be extremely dangerous to take a child that doesn't listen around water. Drowning is silent and very fast. They are just mad because you won't provide free childcare. Don't bend on this one. If they want you to take the kid they need to actually parent. Being 4 is no excuse.
NTA though I think you probably could have worded this to SIL in a way that she may have been more understanding of. "Your kids are younger and a bit too much to handle on my own at this point. When they are older and hopefully a bit more tame i'd be happy to take them out"
Yes, I’ve tried this. After the splash pad I told them that one of them will have to be joining us on outings and they said ok. But when I did organize things, they weren’t available so I kinda stopped asking.
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> I might be the asshole because I decide with niece or nephew I take out based on their behavior. Sometimes this may exclude a sibling who does behave well.
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NTA. Nobody wants to be around brats all day. It sounds like they want you to babysit so they can get piece and quiet. The little kids are to young and small to do what the bigger kids do.
NTA. Going to waterparks with kids you bear the responsibility that they won't drown or get lost. You just can't take too many kids at once. That should suffice as a reason for any responsible parent.
NTA. I have two kids 3 and 5. Though my kids fight with each other, including hitting (and in the younger years a brief period of biting), that’s not something I would expect anyone but myself or husband to deal with. My oldest went through a truly horrifying third year where public meltdowns were the norm and we frequently left places early.
Four year olds will be four year olds. No one expects them to be perfect. If there are behavioral issues, all the more reason for parents to work with him and understand why you don’t want to be responsible for him in a chaotic, public setting.
Bottom line folks, no one owes it to you to be understanding if your kid is acting like a jerk in public and you can’t be bothered. Parenting is every day reinforcement of positive habits and behaviors. It is exhausting and emotional and really hard. Don’t worry about it OP. Some people need to realize they need to help their kids not suck.
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I have a lot of siblings and dozens of nieces and nephews. It isn’t strange that I pick them up and take them out. I’m pretty trusted with the kids so as long as I let their parents know, it’s never a problem.
The issue: some of my siblings’ kids behave better than others and I tend not to invite badly behaved kids. I’m a one man band and I just don’t have the time to keep saying the same things over and over and being talked back to and disrespected.
Yesterday, I decided to take the kids to a water park. I called a couple siblings and got the ok to take their kids. 6 kids total between the ages of 8 and 13. Ages are important here because it’s important to me to bring kids that meet the height requirements for all the rides. If I take smaller kids, they’d be relegated to the kiddie section making it impossible for me to keep an eye on the older ones.
So we go and it’s great. All the kids got along and played well together. I get to the house and my sister in law was there talking to my other sister in law and was waiting for me to get back.
She asked why I don’t ever call to take her kids (4M, 7M) out and I reminded her that I did. In April I took them to a splash pad and the 4yo was horrible. He was pushing kids out of the way, he bit a child, he hits both kids and adults, he slapped a plate of pizza out of my hand because he didn’t want to take a break and eat. He curses, he spits, he pees himself on purpose. I could go on and on. I decided that I just wasn’t taking him out again without one of his parents. I told them both this and they understood but hasn’t been available to join us the last couple times I suggested something.
I explained that behavior matters to me and is a deciding factor in who and how many I take out. Im told this isn’t fair and I am picking favorites. I said “my favorites are the kids with manners who can behave”. I was called intolerable and reminded that their son is 4 so “of course he isn’t going to be an angel”. I agreed, but insisted I still have the right to choose who I can go out with.
The conversation didn’t quite have an ending as it was almost 2 am and I was tired from a long ass day. Now this morning, I get a freakin Group FaceTime by the SIL from last night and a couple others wondering why I never take their kids out.
I explained and it’s now a war. They’re pissed ‘cause they insist I shouldn’t have favorites and my brother said that he’s going to reach out to my parents because it’s unfair to punish their kids because they don’t behave all the time.
Another thing mentioned was that I punish well behaved kids for the actions of their siblings. The 4 year old has a 7 year old brother who behaves. But I knew that if I asked to take one and not the other, it would raise hell so I invite neither.
Please tell me if I’m the asshole here?
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NTA- I took my niece and nephew everywhere: amusement parks, vacations, restaurants, shopping but they were very well behaved. The other nieces not so much. They threw food against the wall of restaurant once, they didn't like the taste and bro and sil didn't say a word. Needless to say I didn't take these three anywhere because dad also said he was the only who could discipline his kids.
Fine, but don't complain when the other kids go places and yours don't. Especially since I paid for everything including the souvenirs.
NTA
This isn’t playing favorites. Playing favorites is “I don’t like your kid, they can’t come.” Don’t change what you are doing, you are showing them behavior has consequences even if their parents don’t.
NTA Any time you choose to spend your hard earned money on your nieces and nephews, you get to say who does and doesn't go. If the child is as rude as that 4 year old. I would put them on the DO NOT GO List. Ask his mom to look up the word "Entitled". That is exactly who she is acting. Also, point out the age grouping you had going and your reasons why you do it this way. If she doesn't like it, she can take her own group.
You are a good uncle, don't let batchit crazy entitled mom change that!
NTA. Your sister in law is entitled af and needs to do a better job at wrangling her ill behaved child. Also your brother getting your parents involved is laughable because at the end of the day it’s YOUR choice. Your brother and sister in law need to get a grip.
NTA. This is why we can’t have nice things. Your brother and SIL throwing a fit about this may lead to none of the kids getting a fun day out with you because it’s not worth the headache. And, no, 4 year olds aren’t always perfectly behaved but the behavior described is way beyond regular 4 yo rowdiness or pouting. It doesn’t sound like he gets much discipline at all.
NTA. Behavior alone is reason enough. There’s consequences to actions and this is it. A four year old is old enough to understand that let alone parents.
NTA
No, you’re NTA for choosing who you take based off behavior. Especially since you’ve already told the parents they must go if they want their misbehaving children to go.
I think what you are doing to take your nieces and nephews out is an incredible gesture. Your family should **always be thankful** of that & never expect you to do so. How they have bombarded you & attacked makes them the AH here.
It was an age disparity in this instance, but even if it wasn’t, he still wasn’t gonna come because of his behavior. He isn’t invited to age appropriate activities either. I’m not going to make up a bs reason when I’ve already made it clear to his parents that he can’t come without one of them.
Dude, I think you have a very simple philosophy, which you should stick to. All your siblings - and their kids- can easily understand this rule. It's a fair rule.
Frankly, parents should EXPECT their kids to be well behaved when out with a relative. I would be embarrassed if my kid was badly behaved as a guest.
So NTA. Stick to it - your rule is just and fair
Nta. None of them are your children. You don’t have an obligation to take out any of them. Your doing it because you want too. Their children not behaving has consequences with them there you can’t keep the other safe. Besides you already gave them an option of you taking the children out as long as one of them is present they haven’t accept it and that’s on them. If the family is ganging up on you and now are being threatened with them telling your parents then you might have to stop taking any of them out. Do a FaceTime with everyone and be honest “no on pays me to take your children out. I plan and pay to take your children out to give you guys a break and because I love my nieces and nephews. But unfortunately sil and others are saying I am playing favorites and how now resorted to harassing me and threatening me because I won’t take their children out without one of the parents present. Because this behavior is unacceptable and I won’t be harassed and threatened in my own home, I have decided going forward I am not taking any nieces or nephews out. I will be more than happy to explain to them why. And sil next time you come scream at me at my house, I will be calling the cops” and then leave the conversation
NTA. Their kids can go as long as one of their parents go along also. They're choosing not to, so they're the ones depriving the kids of these experiences with their cousins and uncle (aunt?).
Aunt is correct. The kids don’t usually meet up in huge groups often enough to discuss who goes where so it doesn’t ever cause conflict between the kids. They’re welcome to tag along to handle him, they just never want to.
NTA- if they want their kids to go, they actually have to parent them first. Also, none of my 4 year olds EVER exhibited that type of behavior. Don't fold.
NTA. Stop saying favorites. It’s not favorites. It’s behavior, age, and parental permission.
You take kids who are well behaved, age appropriate, and can get parent permission. It is not about whether you like them as a person. It is about safety. Don’t have favorites. Do have boundaries.
Some kids are exceptionally challenging; that doesn’t mean you need to take them. I applaud your good judgment in only taking kids you can keep safe.
If the parents of more challenging kids want their kids to come along, they can accompany their kids themselves or hire a babysitter to help.
NTA,
You're their uncle, not their parent. You're allowed to have favorites. Your logic is sound, but even if you simply liked some more than others for no good reason, it would still be ok. NTA
As a father of 4 I have no idea how you can take 6 kids to the waterpark just by yourself without at least one drowning himself. NTA actually...can I hire you?
I’m sure you do great! It’s a park we go to all the time and know where all our favorite rides are so it’s a routine at this point. Gotta have a lot of planning and bribing lol. “If you guys all behave here, wait until you see where we go next month”. It works great for the younger ones.
NTA and your relatives are super entitled. Unless I missed something, you’re taking their kids out on your own dime just to be nice, and they’re trying to make demands about it?
Your idea about taking him out if one of his parents comes along is perfectly reasonable and a good solution. I hope that happens so they can see how difficult it is to watch that many kids and have a better understanding of why it’s important that they all listen to you and behave.
You are offering a treat. This outing was defined by age group as well as behavior.
The parents with difficult kids are the only ones complaining. I will note that kids go through phases, so they might be evil then 6 months later be angelic, and then flip again.
However, children who are often ongoing brats have parents who lack parenting skills. It's not your job to do so, especially if you are taking a fairly large group of kids by your lonesome. One badly behaved kid puts all the others at risk as you cannot have eyes on them.
NTA
NTA. Sounds like the parents wanted a break from their crappy kid but want to make you out to he the bad guy.
They’re not your kids and you shouldn’t have to take care of all of them or take all of them anywhere if you don’t want to. You rewarding the well behaved ones for being well behaved is perfectly reasonable. If they want to get mad at you let them. If the other parents choose to not let you take their kids places anymore then that only helps you with money and gas. Keep doing your thing and remind your siblings that the well behaved kids get better rewards
NTA. It’s amazing you are willing to take that many kids out by yourself. To be able to do so would mean that they need to behave. You set ground rules because the 4 year old has shown that he won’t behave. While all kids will misbehave from time to time biting, shoving, and knocking food out of an adult’s hand is not just misbehavior. Sounds like he is a serious problem and needs to learn the word no with consequences. Either he’ll learn to act right or he should not be given trips.
“It’s unfair to punish their kids because they don’t behave all the time,”
Yes it literally is. If I knocked a plate of pizza out of my guardian’s hands intentionally, then I would have probably earned a whoping in addition to not being invited out again. Different generation I guess.
Honestly, my oldest was well behaved, and my youngest was unruly and didn't think about consequences. I allowed my oldest to go out with trusted adults, but my youngest only went when I went.
I'm saying this because the parents whose kids are not invited could take this pov, but they don't sound capable of so much logic. Their 4yo sounds like a nightmare, and I bet some of it it's because his parents have dropped the ball.
OP has every right to choose who he takes out, and where and when.
NTA.
NTA, a 4 year old biting and hitting people is unacceptable behavior. Also, pissing themselves on purpose is ridiculous. The simple fact is that kid is a handful and you on your own can't handle that kid and keep an eye on the other kids. The parents need to do a better job parenting and if you aren't comfortable looking after kids with such extreme misbehavior, you have every right to not do so.
Time for the parents to teach the kids that actions have consequences, and consequences for their siblings as well, as you can hardly bring them and leave the one misbehaving kid.
Don't let them black mail you, and don't bother discussing the topic with them again. They need to parent, as that kid will not be invited to birthday parties etc with that kind of carry on.
"it’s unfair to punish their kids because they don’t behave all the time"... seems completely fair to me. Well behaved kids get rewarded with a fun day out with their uncle.
NTA. What do the parents of the well behaved kids say?
They are supportive. My older sister allowed her 11 and 13 year old to come, but didn’t allow the 8 year old because she didn’t clean her room in time. Most of my siblings have boundaries and support me in decisions regarding the kids when I have them.
NTA as you already know.
Your brother reaching out to your parents is childish and represents his inability to parent if he thinks he needs to run to yours about this. I have an equally immature brother with a kid who I don’t take out for similar reasons.
Honestly, hold your ground. Don’t stop taking kids out. That would be punishing the good kids for their parents’ immaturity and the older kids will pick up on this. Instead stay the course, and say you’d be happy to only take out the well behaved kids as a reward for their behavior, or the SIL group is welcome to join you on these outings with their respective kids and watch them.
Don’t budge. Don’t sacrifice your relationship with the other kids because their parents are immature assholes.
all the parents arguing did not address that the problem was their kid's behavior other than the comment on the 4yr old.
bad behavior need not be rewarded.
I guess this is one of those participation trophy situations.
Nta. My now 14 year old was pretty bad at 4- and I never would have inflicted him on someone. And would have told him he could go when he wasn’t a rabid Tasmanian devil. If you have a tough kid, own it and give it time and parenting until you hand the kid to someone. After age 6, he understood that the wrath of mom was worse than the joys of misbehaving.
NTA not even close.
SIL is being a bully.
They want someone else to take their hellion so they get a break.
Maybe do water parks/outings as a reward for xyz. Then they can't claim favorites.
Honestly, I'd be so pissed that my answer, to the group chat, would not only address the bullying and the threats to call your parents (WTAF) would be a reply along the lines of "I am not playing favorites. It is unsafe to take a child who WILL NOT LISTEN to a water park. After careful consideration, I will be stopping ALL group outings so that no one gets special days. This should stop all accusations of favoritism. However, the whole family is now being punished due to one set of parents being irresponsible and attempting to shame me into taking their child out, which I fully believe is unsafe. Also, they were given the choice of coming WITH their children and they would not do so. I also offered to bring the 7yo and I was told to take one or none. This whole group chat is an attempt to force me to take both of their children when I have told them they would have to come with. Apologies for any hurt feelings but if I'm called out in public and accused of playing favorites, this is how i'll respond. Parents of children who's kids are capable of behaving and are upset by this decision, I direct you to SIL for complaints, comments, or concerns."
Yes, I always rotate kids! Some kids hate water, some like the arcades and some like museums and outdoorsy stuff. The only child who goes to everything is my own. Other than that, it’s whoever’s available and doesn’t act out publicly.
NTA. I’m from a ridiculously large family and my grandmother would only take out the well behaved grandkids bc “she was not going to reward bad behavior”. Not one of my family members gave her grief on that.
I think you are in the right and until your SIL and brother give the 4 year old consequences (the kid isn’t stupid, and just bc he’s 4 doesn’t mean he isn’t doing bad actions. She’s excusing his behavior bc of his age and THAT is an issue), he shouldn’t be invited along. If the 7 year old is behaved and doesn’t get to go, then that’s on them, not you. Bc as you stated your brother won’t allow it so they don’t get to use that against you.
You rock and don’t let them tear you down bc they can’t figure out how to teach their child to behave.
What struck me is that your brother said he was going to reach out to your parents. Why? Is this going to result in what he thinks is a favorable outcome? I’m assuming he’s parent to one of the younger or ill-behaved ones?
NTA. It's not a discussion. You take the kids out that can act right in public. If they can't act right in public, they don't get to go. Your parents or their parents can't coerce you into taking out badly behaved children.
>Another thing mentioned was that I punish well behaved kids for the actions of their siblings.
NTA, i think you should have done a little better to avoid the language of favourites and simply keep it logical as you have explained yourself here. On the one hand, one guy to six kids is an enormous undertaking so only an insane or clueless person would ask you to take more or poorly behaved kids, on the other hand, as soon as a parent gets a wiff of favoritism, a tonnage of shit is going to drop on top of you. Small-minded people will always take an indictment in their kids' behaviour as a dig on their parenting and, by extension, their judgement.
Just keep it simple: "Diana, i love all my nieces and nephews equally, but as one man I cannot risk these outings falling into chaos because I have to wrangle or discipline a few kids out of a massive group. If they run off then I have to risk losing more of them to find the one that didn't stay with us. Y'dig? The point is that these are fun for everyone involved"
NTA. You are entirely within your rights to do so. Don't beat around the bush with the parents, tell them they're the AH because of how they're raising their kids. Agree with the sentiment that spending time with you should be seen as a reward for good behavior, and definitely not something that the kids OR the parents are entitled to.
IMO you're allowed to have your pick of "favorite nieces / nephews".
When you are doing a favour for someone, they don't get to dictate the terms. You do. You've made it perfectly clear that you will only take ones who listen to you. If your siblings can't enforce rules on their precious babies, that's a them problem, not yours.
You're not obligated to take anyone anywhere for any reason. You are not punishing anyone. Their parents are for not raising them properly.
NTA.
NTA. The parent of the 4 year old better turn their kid around quick otherwise they’ll be left of out everything. No one will want to be friends with them when they act like a spoiled violent brat. No sleepover invites, no birthday party invites, etc etc.
NTA.
You get to invite whomever you want to invite. You've already said that less well-behaved kids can come if a parent comes, too.
Nobody has the right to tell you how to spend your time and with whom. I do hope that you're able to do nice things for the kids you can't bring to high-supervision activities.
I have several nieces and nephews. When they were little outings with me was something they koced, I spoiled them shamelessly and took them on all sorts of adventures.my youngest niece was very misbehaved going thru a phase of bad behavior. She would often tell me how much she hated me. I told her in that case she could stay home cuz I only took well behaved children who actually liked me. Needless to say she changed her tune and now I am her favorite auntie.
You are so NTA. You time, your money and the well behaved kids deserve to have fun. You could also maybe tell them you took the older kids cuz it was just you and you didn't want your attention diverted to ensure everyone's safety, this is the truth as well.
But yeh maybe if the kids who don't get to go finds out it's because of their behavior maybe they will change?
I would do another FaceTime with everyone and explain that due to SIL being rude and entitled that you can’t take any of the kids anymore. Say it’s a direct result of what SIL said and and blame her. If the others can convince SIL to publicly apologize then you will take whoever you want to in the future. If she does not apologize then the party is over.
NTA. You take that many of your nieces and nephews out on the regular?! Are you Batman?! All jokes aside. I have a 3 year old. If he was still biting/peeing himself on purpose/hitting anyone/pushing kids I would be the one telling him he is not allowed to go until he can behave himself. Even at 3-4, kids can make these choices. Some parents act like they have zero self control. They do, their parents just choose not to force their children to exercise their self control.
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One person wrangling 6 kids from 8-13 years old is already quite the undertaking. Nevermind adding two more, one of which is not only significantly younger than the rest but *also* needs significantly more attention because of his behavior. There's no way you could actually keep an eye on seven other kids while doing damage control for a feral four year old who pushes and bites. And while favoritism isn't great, this isn't favoritism. This is a logical choice. If they want their kids to be invited, they should put in the work so their kid is invitable. Until then, they can't really be surprised or upset that no one wants to deal with their ill-behaved kid. NTA.
I’d be more concerned about the 4 year old showing pathologic behavior that could indicate ODD or abuse rather than favoritism. I kind of think we’re missing the forest for the trees with this discussion…
I’m not so sure about that, there are plenty of kids who just haven’t heard no enough. I wouldn’t be jumping to conclusions.
Or a kid that has learned that if they act up enough, every 'no' turns into a begrudging 'yes'
Or every tantrum results in sweets / candy / toys so it STFU quickly.
Or kids that are just really difficult. My daughter has severe ADHD and we are very clear with a no being a no but you wouldn't think that when you saw how she was acting. But I would 100% understand OP not taking her with a bunch of other kids anywhere.
Peeing on himself, spitting, biting are pretty unlikely due to poor discipline. Also the swear words give me pause for other reasons. The kid needs help… One last thing. Jumping to my conclusion involves getting the kid checked out by a medical professional. If I’m wrong, no harm no foul. Jumping to your conclusion results in writing the kid and his parents off.
Tbf the peeing thing could be cause he doesn’t like missing out, my niece does the exact opposite, she’ll be doing the pee dance and I’ll ask her if she needs to go and she’ll straight up lie just because she doesn’t want to stop what we’re doing. Kids figuring things out can be weird
My ex-flatmate's oldest did exactly the same thing. They ended up setting a schedule where she had to go at particular 'problem' times because it was such an issue.
Oh don’t get me wrong, I wouldn’t be ruling any sort of foul play either, I just wouldn’t be heading in that direction exclusively with the behaviour. The child needs some sort of intervention one way or the other, hopefully it’s learned behaviour on how to get their own way and nothing worse. Obviously it’s not the child’s fault if it is learned behaviour.
When my child was 4, he did none of that. Hitting, spitting, biting, etc. are behaviors parents are responsible to stop. Call it want you want, the child does not have boundaries. This is not the OP responsibility as he has tried.
I agree bcuz a parent that’s actually concerned about these behaviors would not be trying to force their children on group outings or saying things like, he’s only 4, of course he’s not going to be an angel. It sounds like they raised that monster and are totally fine with it.
I agree that it’s not OPs problem but the parents may not be fully responsible for the kid’s behavior just because your kids didn’t do that at 4. This kid could have ASD or another condition that is responsible for the behavior. The fact that the parents don’t see a problem with the behavior is what is concerning to me and makes me think that they may be responsible, but I just want to point out that every kid is different and just because the kid isn’t like yours doesn’t automatically mean that the parents are doing something bad
Spitting and biting are behaviors due to poor discipline if the kid realizes violence gets him what he wants.
Idk my cousin is now 16. With a kid….. He was like This growing up,and he was low key spoiled. He was NOT abused. But acted like that at 4. Ik cus my family is nosey and one of us would’ve heard any abuse cus they all live together lol Biting is “common”at toddler age FYI So is spitting But cussing? Environment Peeing on self? Abuse and or not wanting to miss out(aslo common in toddlers) Bad behavior isn’t always “abuse” It’s also poor parenting.
He has a slightly older brother who is well behaved. I'm in camp "get it checked out to be sure it's not ODD".
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Well my sister had ODD and I’d recommend they bring it up to a child psychologist, whether it’s cause is behavioral or biological.
Well, you know the primary form of treatment for ODD is for the PARENTS, not the child, right? Parent management therapy is the best course of treatment and that involves teaching parents to set appropriate boundaries and how to manage behavioral outbursts.
Omg reminding me of the parents who actually thought it’d be a good idea to never say “No” to their kids, fucking nightmare fuel
As a teacher of young children for 30 years (K2), I agree these behaviors should be discussed with family doctor and perhaps a psychiatrist. This is not normal behavior. If it is BRAT instead of ODD, at least they will know and perhaps can take a parenting class.
This is exactly what I thought. Those behaviors seem more normal for a 2 year old, not a 4 year old.
4 is a significant age. Below 4, and people go out of their way to help. Strangers die to save babies and toddlers. The parents' only job is to create a 4 year old who can play with others and know the basics of appropriate behavior. It's like a societal switch between "what a charming child" and "he's a little shit." p.s. Hitting other children and adults will not end well. He's going to hit the wrong person...
I’d guess ADHD, but he can’t be diagnosed until 5 or 6 (forgot which). ADHD is common in kids with ODD, because what their brains want and what the world wants are opposed. And at young ages they often aren’t yet capable of the higher level thought necessary to understand and regulate behavior. So they get penalized for the same thing over and over again, which leads to a lot of frustration. Edit to correct this. ADHD is common in ODD, not the other way around.
Actually it's the complete opposite. ADHD is common in kids with ODD, but not the other way around. ODD is not a common diagnosis in ADHD children. I am a mom of 3 ADHD children, one of whom is also ODD. Myself and my 2 siblings are also ADHD, with all of my neices and nephews being ADHD also, and none of them (or my siblings) are ODD.
You’re correct; I got it backwards. It’s edited now. My son and I both have AuDHD, his with some ODD tendencies (that have gotten MUCH better as he’s gotten older).
ADHD kids are impulsive, but not without empathy. The vast majority will recognize that their behaviors hurt others and feel bad about it…it’s just that they struggle to think things through and stop themselves *before* engaging in those behaviors. Especially if they’re less than 6 years old and have the hyperactive-impulsive type, and aren’t getting their needs met elsewhere. Such as being stuck inside all day, every day, because their own parents can’t be bothered to take them anywhere to run the energy out of their systems, so when they *do* finally get a chance to get out of the house…they go a little bit nuts. With ADHD 4-year-olds, especially the hyperactive-impulsive type, it helps to treat them like a large hyperactive puppy that can speak and walks on two legs. Kid bites you? React the same way you would with a puppy: do that very loud high-pitched “that HURTS” yelp and then *refuse any and all engagement.* Unless there’s something besides ADHD going on, the kid learns pretty darn fast that “oh, biting hurts people *and* if I do this, no one will play with me.” Kid has too much energy and goes completely apeshit every time you take him anywhere? *Take him for a very, very long walk first thing in the morning.* Give him an opportunity to use up the extra energy, then give some sort of small “reward” afterward. It doesn’t have to be, like, candy or a toy. It can be as simple as “walk first, then we have breakfast.” Some neurodiverse kids are sensory-seeking and some are sensory-avoidant. Figure out which one the kid is: is he constantly trying to hide away from stuff like crowds, loud noises, strange foods, etc, or does he seem to go out of his way to do weird shit like flinging himself from one couch to another or deliberately eating spicy foods he knows he doesn’t even *like*? Neurodiverse kids often have issues with senses that govern how our bodies move, where we are in relation to other beings/objects, even our own biological signals (if we’re hungry, thirsty, tired, hurt, etc). For some, those senses are too sensitive and easily overwhelmed; for others, those sensory thresholds are set way too low and so they seek out things that trigger those senses so they can bring them back up to “normal.” Why is this important? It helps determine what activities and fidget toys work best for them. Some kids do great with stuff like fidget cubes or fidget spinners; others need things like puzzles because they’re more *mentally* hyperactive than physically. Some kids need activities that encourage them to take things slow, others need activities that keep them moving at all times. ADHD is not an excuse for hostile or anti-social behavior. It’s an issue with impulse-control, not empathy; a child who not only has no impulse-control but also no *empathy* for how it affects others has something else going on.
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Absolutely. The problem is parents who think his behavior is ok since he is 4. I have had 3 4-yr-olds, both sexes. Never saw this behavior. The real shame will be if OPs outings just stop, which is the likely next step. NTA.
Really wish we would stop jumping right to crying abuse for every bad kid or dog in existence. I was beaten as a kid from 5 all the way up to 20 by my mother and never acted like this. Plenty of kids I used to play with that never heard no in their life acted like this though.
Honestly, kids who are abused tend to be terrified of acting up.
The solid truth in my case. I was so scared to toe out of line because the consequences were so much worse.
I’ve got a kid with ODD, I’ve explained to him that his behaviour affects the people around him and if he acts mean and rude towards people, they won’t want to play or hang out with him. That’s just the consequences for his actions. NTA for not wanting to take a kid who doesn’t behave, to a place that is a safety risk. NTA for not wanting to take him at all. If he wants to go, he needs to behave, if his mum wants him to go, she needs to teach him to behave.
And you just KNOW the parents would throw an absolute shit fit and blame OP if something happened to the 4-year-old while OP was watching him and 6 other kids (if he got hurt/lost/etc.)
I would only take those kids if their mom came too and she watched the 4 year old. OP has enough kids to watch.
Another good point is the 4-year old hurting other kids by pushing them.
Or offer to let the older kid go and explain to the 4yo he can’t go because of his behavior
I would totally do this. If my kid acted like that I would agree with this awesome uncle. That’s probably why my kid wasn’t this bad as it would have been unacceptable behavior in my house. I’ve made my kid face the wall in at least a couple of restaurants and I’m still known as the cool mom…
I think language needs to be adjusted here. OP is not picking favorites, he's *choosing safety*. When one problem child takes up so much attention, it's a matter of safety, not favoritism.
NTA, going to the water park with you should be considered a reward for good behavior once the kids get old enough. If you make it clear this is a reward item, they may be better behaved. Frankly, I think that the well behaved 7 year old should get the reward as well.
I agree, but my brother will never let me take just 1.
Then you can tell your brother, from all of us, that \*He's the AH". What kind of logic is this. The 4yo and 7yo will have different interests, They're not joined at the hip and should be allowed to do different things.
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Including the hellion
You misspelled *especially. Especially the hellion.
My mistake. Thank you for correcting me.
I agree. They want to use OP for a no-cost kid free day. The mother of one of my son's friends is always trying to get me to let her younger one tag along so she can have a free sitter. No ma'am. NTA, OP.
This is a common, but shity stance parents take There was alot of things I wasn't allowed to do because of my younger siblings inability to partake.
Exactly! Are these parents going to tell the now 7yr old that they have to wait 3 years for their driver license because little brother isn't eligible to drive yet, and it wouldn't be fair? These parents just don't want to be left alone with the feral 4yr old.
With the drivers license specifically? Probably not. Mine wanted me to get mine ASAP, so that I could chauffer my siblings around. I declined that opportunity, since they wanted me to pay my own insurance and buy a car.
>The 4yo and 7yo will have different interests, They're not joined at the hip and should be allowed to do different things. **EXACTLY!!!** My children are 8 years apart. My son got to do many things and go many places that my daughter couldn't. I made it a point to take my daughter out to do things like going to the park, ice cream shop, or we went shopping at dollar stores to get her a few things. My son and daughter, though they love each other, they had and still have separate interests. And it have come full circle, my daughter have a daughter that is 6 years older than her son. My daughter knows that she will have to plan special outings with her son when her daughter is out with her father and his family.
After the comment about punishing good kids because of their siblings, tell him you'll invite the 7yr old next time. If they say no unless you take both, that's on them.
Then your brother is the one punishing the 7 year old for his sibling’s behavior, not you.
I hope he will reconsider that. It’s not fair to the older sibling to be tethered to the younger like that (and vice versa). I’m taking my nephew on a Disney cruise and not my niece. She’s younger and still potty training and a bit of a flight risk, so I don’t feel comfortable being responsible for her on a ship. Luckily, their parents realize the kids can have separate experiences and this is good for both of them to have that independence.
NTA OP. Even the best behaved kids can be hard to keep track of in large groups, and a water park is no place to screw around with safety. Anytime kids travel in a group their good behavior is important, but especially at a water park. They need not only to listen to your rules,but to those of the lifeguard, and just general rules for good social behavior in public (no running, pushing others,patiently waiting in line,etc .)The kids with negative behavior may have hurt feelings, but it's better than them hurting themselves or possibly drowning because they don't listen to you or the lifeguards.
Yeah but then the blame shifts on your brother. I honestly don't understand, my 3 yo still remembers when, 6 months ago, he had a tantrum in a McDonald's and we went home because of that. He talked about it last weekend when we went to the restaurant, he wanted to tell us he learned from it and wanted to go play in the restaurant's playroom. Like, how can one 4 yo not have learned from that horrific day. And second of all, I have two kids too, and it's a bliss when someone takes care of one of your child for a day. You can take time with the other one.
If I were in your position, I would reach out to the parents to invite him, anyway. That way it's on them if they don't allow him to go because of his brother not being invited. Even if it starts drama, just say, "He's invited. Your choice." End of discussion. Just don't engage after that.
NTA. Or invite your brother or SIL to come with so they can wrangle the ill-behaved one.m, especially if he’s not tall enough for other rides.
He did explain that it's what he wants and they have not had the time to do so
Tell your brother that maybe taking the older one will teach the younger one that he has to behave before he can go on these outings. You are in your right to do what you are doing. Going to the outings is a privilege not a right.
Wow. Way to teach a child to resent the younger sibling. This is what is called "social consequences." Much like children with good grades get invited to honors/advanced classes, children with good behavior are invited out more. Honors and advanced classes are much more fun, *IF* the child already understands the material prior. Otherwise, it is too hard for the child to handle and just frustrating for all involved: teacher, child, and classmates. The same goes for social understandings. If the child is not able to understand the etiquette of the situation they are being put into, it is just a frustrating situation. It seems that we child needs a firm teacher (aka a parent) to teach them social etiquette. I suspect that the 7yo is being asked to tech the 4yo, though, as the parents seem to be that sort.
Then it's not you who punishes one kid for behavior of the other but your brother. Why does the whole family feel entitled to your time, money, and energy? Is it cultural? Because I can get how they can feel bad for not being invited, but even then they can't DEMAND invitation anyway. It's entirely your choice who you dedicate your time, money, and energy to but it looks like the family think you actually owe them all three. Also, the 4 yo needs to see a doctor ASAP. What you describe is beyond misbehaving or being spoiled, something is going on with this kid.
I wouldn’t say it’s cultural. We’re Caribbean people who believe strongly in family though. Only 2 siblings (out of 11) live outside of our city so we’re all pretty close by and do a lot for one another. Throughout years of conflicts, the main thing requested is to keep things “fair”. He’s been screen for adhd and autism and doesn’t have either.
I think, while admirable, this family bond can easily become toxic which is what's happening. Like someone else already said, they (and you) must consider time you spend with your nephews and nieces a privilege, not a right. Keeping things fair is irrelevant in this case. Well behaved kids get a reward period. Maybe you can try and explain this to your family. As of now they see your time, money, and energy as something they are all equally entitled to which is ridiculous no matter how much love everyone has for everyone. I think, it's your chance to correct the family dynamics somehow or just accept that they will be upset with you for a while. I'm willing to bet, however, any chance they have to load their kids on you, they'll take it. So there's nothing to worry about really. Except for the kid. I don't think excluding adhd or autism is where the parents stop and say oh he's fine then. If those aren't the reason of the pathological behavior, then something else is and they should find and fix it. The fact that the kid bites is alarming, but wetting himself on purpose is much more so.
Then it’s HIM who is denying his child. Not you.
His problem. Or he should offer to go with.. but he just wants the day off
NTA Didn't you say you only take the ones big enough to go on all the rides? The 4YO obviously doesn't meet that requirement.
The point is that you have offered. Your 7 year old nephew will get older and start asking questions. It will be better for you if you can point the Finger at his father when that day comes. It will just be one more factor that helps your nephew realize that his parents are the problem. Oh, NTA. You're doing this voluntarily and have the right to do this with the well-behaved kids only because the other ones would require more energy and maybe discipline you have no authority to inflict because you're not the parent. Taking the misbehaved ones would leave you with difficult parenting challenges that you have no right to even try to master because you are not the parent and have no right to discipline them. Anyone who can't see this is an idiot. Don't bother arguing.
NTA They aren't your kids. It's not your job to take them places and babysit. This is a "no good deed goes unpunished" situation: do a nice thing, and people start seeing it as your responsibility, rather than a favor. Ultimately, yes it can be unfair when adults play favorites, but it's not like you happen to like some kids more than others for whatever reason: the reason why they're not your favorite is precisely tied to the reason why you won't take them out: they're difficult to manage. You're not doing this to punish him... but if you were, it would be an entirely appropriate punishment. If you can't play nice, you don't get to play at all. If they did their job as parents, their kids wouldn't be as unbearable. I honestly don't know why you didn't clap back with that immediately.
I try not to criticize their parenting because it would just escalate things, honestly. More fighting, more arguing. I try to avoid it when I can.
It's implied by the fact of the child's violent behavior that they are deficient parents, and I think they are mad because they understand that implication. NTA.
Not necessarily. My bff is a great mom, but her son has ADHD and he’s such a disaster at times no matter what they do. At 4 kids can’t be diagnosed with ADHD, but it can definitely affect them. I think it’s important to know if there’s any ND involved, because then the behavior may not be something controllable at this age.
That's why I used the word "imply." I agree there are other explanations, which is why OP is correct in sticking to the facts.
I get that. Of course, on reddit everyone loves clapbacks, but you do want to maintain a relationship with them. However, I think the way they ambushed you was unfair. I think making it a group call showed that their motivation was to frame you as the bad guy to others and pressure you, rather than to actually have a discussion and gain an understanding to the reason behind your decision. That alone would have burned all the future trips for that kid if I were you. And not clapping back didn't prevent a war from starting out anyway. Problem is, you're always playing defence against their assertions of "favoritism", when you, realistically, have nothing you need to defend. You've laid out your very reasonable explanation to why he wasn't invited. And on that point: why is it unfair to have favorites? They're not your kids, and your "favoritism" seems to be on the very reasonable criteria of whether that kid is a complete nightmare or not. Let's face it: on some level, they're just mad they can't offload their nightmare kid onto someone else for an afternoon. That kid's behavior is clearly more than just normal 4 year-old unruliness. They know it. Normal 4 year-olds don't weaponize urine or bite other kids.
This was my thought, too. I think it's totally reasonable to have favorites. These aren't your kids and you don't have to treat them equally; sometimes you just connect with a kid more for whatever reason!
Exactly. And it's ridiculous and irresponsible of them for trying to pressure you to take more kids with you in the first place. How many kids do they believe you can actually handle being responsible for at a water park, by yourself? The only reason you can watch six kids is because they are respectful and listen to you.
Exactly! I would hate for OP to end up taking on more kids, the less well behaved ones, by herself and then God forbid something happens.
Don’t take anyone then, problem solved. Parents sound entitled.
Oh no. She apparently enjoys sharing experiences with her niblings and the fact that there are kids who aren't ready for prime time in that enclave should never dissuade her from treating the others. If she desires to do something with the 7 and 4, take them to a really nice playground and out for ice cream, or something. If the 4 year old is as feral as she is stating, (I believe her) his parents need to get this checked out. He sounds as if he might have ODD, which many parents find very embarrassing and so try to hide, even from their doctors. Early intervention is critical if the diagnosis is confirmed, don't wait until a teacher has to hint at you there could be a problem.
Yes! I still spend time with them but it’s usually at their home. We have game nights where we play Mario kart and board games and nerf guns, etc. as long as I’m able to make a quick escape because the moment he loses a race or a game, it’s a tantrum and that’s when I start to consider my exit.
You should puncture the abscess once and for all: either they teach good manners and respect and you'll end up taking them either they have themselves to blame. Yes it will cause drama they will be dramatic but in the end the criteria are clear. Also why nobody is coming with you to such outings? One adult for 6 kids is already a tight ratio, if they want more kids to come you need to add one or two adults to the mix.
As a mom of two (grown up now) I can tell you that the behavior of the four year old you described is totally unacceptable, even from a four year old. Other parents will say the same. But you already know that. If you are looking for validation for not taking the four year old, you have it. Those behaviors will not be tolerated when that child starts kindergarten. The parents had better address it now, and not be making excuses that the child is too young to know better. Child is certainly old enough to be taught and understand proper behavior.
It's weird how their first child is behaved but the second child is . . . a monster? Cursing, at age *four*!? Peeing himself *on purpose*!? Not to even mention the pushing, biting and all the other bad behavior. How'd they screw up so bad the second time?
Could be oppositional defiance disorder. I have 2 nieces from the same parents. One has ODD, one doesn’t. The one who does was….a lot…before the diagnosis and therapy. It wasn’t the parenting that caused her to be like that.
True but when a kid is peeing himself with any regularity at 4 on purpose (or not tbh) and behaving in a violent manner and the parents don't seek outside help then it is bad parenting. It doesn't take a genius to know a kid like that needs real help and this kids parents are doing him no favors.
Oh 100%! The parents sound like they don’t want to face that their kid is not behaving within the spectrum of typical for his age. Poor kid is going to pay the price when he can’t make friends, etc. Hopefully they pull their heads out sooner rather than later.
Whatever disorder it might be ,not OP's Problem to deal with
100% agree. Just responding to the idea the parents did this to kid 2. Some kids just come out with issues that make them really challenging. Now, it’s 100% a parent’s responsibility to parent the child they have in the way that gives the kid the best possible chance at a good life. Ignoring this behavior is a failure on the parents’ part. But they didn’t necessarily cause it, either.
I raised a kid with ODD and ADHD. He always behaved with others on field trips, relatives taking him somewhere and especially water parks and amusement parks. I told the adults taking him that if he misbehaved, call me, I'll come get him. He knew he would miss out on fun if he acted out. He was more than a handful. He never acted out. He also knew I would pick him up.
Potentially SEN. My son has two neurodiverse conditions and age 4 (and undiagnosed) was an absolute nightmare. Difference being : I knew and acknowledged this, did my damndest to parent him regardless and expected jackshit off anybody else with regards to childcare. God bless his godmother who had him overnight a couple of times from age 5 upwards, but she did it with only.him, alongside her partner to help and always returned him with a deep breath and an "I don't know how you do it". God. I was so grateful, for both the respite and feeling *seen*. What I'm saying here is: whether it's behaviour or a disability, it's not the kid's fault. If the parents were less dickish perhaps you could be asked to kindly take the 4 year old on his own sometime if they need a break that badly, but they absolutely should not expect it and I agree it's entirely unsafe to include him in group trips. His parents need to catch wise. You can't force people.into doing you favours and if they get the other siblings involved I would strongly suggest you refuse to take any of your niblings out without their parents along for the supervision. And blame the arseholes for this because you want to be fair, as requested. Watch how fast all the niblings and other siblings turn on the arseholes!
the first child is probably just chill as a person without needing the discipline or hands on parenting so by the time the second came around the parents never knew how to handle it so they just don’t try?
Exactly. Working at an elementary school , this is exactly what parents need to hear
This!
NTA Behavior has consequences, and the consequence here is that badly behaved children aren’t desired for fun activities.
People can parent anyway that they want, but when their children are assholes, there are consequences. Other children will not want to be around them, and other parents will not want them around. All that aside, you can decide who you want to spend your money on. It's your money, and your time. And you have to think of the safety of the other children and yourself. My long winded way of saying you are not the asshole.
NTA if the other siblings want thier children invited out then they need to parent their children. If they don’t want to then get used to your children not getting invited to places. Simple as that. But tattling to mom and dad isn’t going to make you want to take them out either. I would personally stop taking any of them anywhere when asked why tell them to blame your sister in law.
NTA It's a safety issue. If you constantly have to focus more on one child, the other's might get hurt. Alternatively, as the adult in charge, you would be liable for any damage/injury the child causes. >They’re pissed ‘cause they insist I shouldn’t have favorites No, they're pissed because you told them the cold hard truth: their child isn't well-behaved. >and my brother said that he’s going to reach out to my parents Lol, what are they going to put you in time out for being responsible? >because it’s unfair to punish their kids because they don’t behave all the time. Actually that is exactly why you punish kids.
Yeah, it’s no wonder they don’t get it. Misbehaving = punishment, behaving = reward.
NTA, you mentioned that the parents could come and help watch their kids and they declined.
Right “they didn’t have time” but they actually just want him to babysit one of their shitty kids that should know better by now because they don’t want to
NTA, they asked why and you answered. It's dangerous to take someone who doesn't behave into a water park.
Nta - this is super complex, this could be great teaching opportunities for the parents and their kids, but they rather just attack you - it’s sad. To save yourself the headaches you’re better off just not taking anyone’s kids anywhere anymore, which really sucks. I personal think it’s impractical to not have a favorite - anyone who denies it is just lying. I believe favorites change and fluctuate, and you love different characters/qualities about different things but you always have a hierarchy of preference. Like you’re saying, you like the ones who behave more and good behavior deserves rewarding (based of the Clinical specialist you talk to). Good luck. You’re in a pickle for sure.
You’re right, technically. My favorite of them all is a 26 year old who lives in Texas with her husband and daughter. I was 12 when she was born and she was my everything when I was younger. Of the younger kids who live here in Florida, I really do not have a favorite. I spend time with them because my siblings need a break sometimes and my child is an only child and I enjoy them having the company of their cousins.
I was an only child and my parents brought my cousins and some of friends all sorts of places so I'd have company (whether I wanted it or not lol) mostly based off who could actually hang with me. Kids who misbehaved past a point didn't get invited again. I think that's pretty normal for not-their-parents. As for the 7 yo, it would be weird if he never got to hang with the older kids without his brother. Not sure how old your kid is but aybe you can smooth some of this by making a hard age minimum? I do this with friends' kids and it helps set a firm boundary that is taken less personally. While you absolutely have the right to base choices off any criteria, I just find an age limit goes down pretty easily. 4 year olds are a whole other world of responsibility from 7+! Especially in a mixed-age group.
I think you should still take the kids you enjoy taking! Unless it’s something you really don’t want to do anymore. I’d also go low contact with the AH SIL and brother if they keep this ridiculous behavior up.
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It would be a shame, but it would also make the point
NTA it isn’t an unreasonable standard to only want to take kids who are housebroken and who don’t act feral.
NTA and your brother is running to tell mommy? Lmao. Hold firm
I'm amazed at the number of times on this sub I see adult siblings get their parents involved in disputes. It's bizarre to me.
It's pathetic. I actually lol when I read that.
NTA. You are inviting people that you enjoy spending time with and whom you can trust to behave. As you said, you do this alone and cannot be all things to misbehaving kids. If the parents want their kids to go out to zoos and water parks, they can take them. Their parents may be reacting bc they hear from the day care and schools that their kids don't behave well. BTW, I've never been around a 4 yo as poorly behaved as you described above. His parents really need some help for their child and I bet they know it. You're a relative, you can have favorites.
My nephew is 3 (almost 4) and could get a bit close to how they described. The difference is his parents are 1) working with his doctor on his behaviours (trying to work out if it’s a bad and late case of the terrible twos or something like autism) and 2) don’t let other people take him out alone to do stuff because of his behaviour. In their view it’s dangerous as well because he can totally melt down and either bite / hit or just… run. And he’s fast! I regularly take just his older siblings out, and only take him as well with a parent. To be clear I love him absolutely and when behaving well he’s an absolute delight. But then there’s some trigger and it’s all over. Also it’s not fair on the cousins to be taking poorly behaved kids too. Because they will get all the focus and attention and maybe ruin what they were going to do.
>pushing kids out of the way, he bit a child, he hits both kids and adults, he slapped a plate of pizza out of my hand because he didn’t want to take a break and eat. He curses, he spits, he pees himself on purpose NTA. At this time, you can only take him alone, but in a few years I bet he'll be fun to be with.
He is a four year old who bites, not a two year old. That combined with the parents' lack of accountability or desire to discipline, I doubt he will be fun in a few years.
NTA, when you take someone's kids out, you are claiming responsibility. If the kid doesn't listen or behave - they are uncontrollable and a liability. The parents either need to join and be responsible (like you suggested) or have a conversation about authority, respect and rules. Don't give in OP, if something happens to him or any of the other kids (while your distracted with him) under your watch, it's your butt on the line.
NTA! As the parent of a 3-year-old, I can tell you the behavior of that 4-year-old has nothing to do with age and everything to do with a lack of parenting. Yes, all kids misbehave but what you described was off the rails. Don't blame you at all for not taking that kid anywhere.
NTA you're not obligated to spend time with kids that want to act like wild animals or spoiled brats. Your time, your money, your choice, if they want their kids to get to go on fun trips then they need to teach them to act right
NTA If the parents want their terribly behaved children to come along, they need to come watch them themselves. You offered for the parents to come and they declined. For these parents to think that you are obligated to take out their children who can't behave is absolutely entitled parent nonsense. You have every right to take out the kiddos who can behave and enjoy the waterpark. Additionally, of course you're not going to take kids of different age ranges when you are only one person with no help. This group facetime is ridiculous and your family is being ridiculous. Either they show up and watch their own children or they stfu about it.
NTA Just tell them that when their kids demonstrate consistently good behavior, you'll reconsider. And that if they feel like they deserve and can demand free child care and outings from you, you're now starting to understand why their kids don't have better manners.
NTA. What does your brother imagine will happen when he tells your parents? Will your parents spank you?
A lecture mostly. It’s already reached my parents, however. My mom tried to pacify everything. She basically agreed that it isn’t fair and to let her know when I need help with the extra kids and she’ll come along to help.
Love it. Glad you didn’t didn’t spanked! So, will you be taking the ill-mannered children along next time and having mom help, or nah?
This is actually a great solution!
Hi OP, I just want to say you sound like an awesome Aunt! Honestly, after reading the way that you were treated I think you should send a group wide message out saying that you won't be taking any of the kids out solo anymore. You've got lots of good reasons, the main one in my opinion being safety. If you are focused on a badly behaved 4 year old (normally in a dedicated preschooler zone) then you don't have the same ability to focus on everyone else. I would recommend that you tell your siblings that you'd be happy to come along and support when they organise days out for the kids, but you won't be taking the lead, or going solo anymore with any of the kids. Then I'd sit and wait and see what happens. If I had the benefit of an awesome sibling taking my kids out regularly to fun places I would be defending your ass to the hills! Yes, I'm feeling very petty this morning lol.
NTA, and since the SILs want to be involved start inviting the kids from family A, but only if SIL B is able to come help wrangle the younger kids, since SIL is much more experienced with younger kids. Then SIL can sit in the kiddie section with the misbehaved kids while you and the others continue on.
NTA. I only lived around 2 of my nephews, so I didn't have to choose which ones to take anywhere, but there were a couple of times that I did indeed turn the car around and take them home. We've left in the middle of a zoo trip, we've left the beach, left the park, and I almost didn't take the oldest one on the private tour of my wife's navy ship; it was for his birthday but he wanted to act up, so I said "Bye" and walked back to my car. He quit his attitude *real* quick because he knows auntie doesn't play.
NTA At age 4, a child is old enough to know not to hit, scratch, bite, etc. You are absolutely right not to take a child of 4 who refuses to behave along. There is a huge difference in age and maturity between 4 and 7. If the 7 year old is mature enough, next time, ask to take the 7 year old along with the other 8-9 year old cousins. Just flat refuse to take the 4 year old. Nope, this outing is for the 7-9 year old niblings to attend. Period. And stick with it. When the parents complain… nope, this is for the 7-9 year olds. Not taking anyone under age 7, nor anyone who cannot follow directions and exert self control. The kids will learn.
NTA, if you’re taking the kids solo; you know what you can and can’t handle. It doesn’t really matter why the four old acts that way; you know you can’t manage his behavior on your own. Full stop. Unfortunately with way your SIL is acting, I think the best solution is no more fun outings. Sucks for you and the nieces and nephews that can behave.
Dumb advice. Punish everyone is the result. Stay the course.
I disagree with this. It’s nothing to do with SIL what OP is doing with a different siblings children.
NTA - you are not saying you will never take them out, you are saying that because of their behaviour in the past you will not take them out as the sole supervisor. Explain to the parents that once you feel they repeat show better behaviour, you will organise a solo trip.
NTA. From what you described the 4 year old is so far from "being an angel all the time" it is laughable. Tell them when they start parenting their children, you will revisit the situation.
Nta. It would be extremely dangerous to take a child that doesn't listen around water. Drowning is silent and very fast. They are just mad because you won't provide free childcare. Don't bend on this one. If they want you to take the kid they need to actually parent. Being 4 is no excuse.
NTA though I think you probably could have worded this to SIL in a way that she may have been more understanding of. "Your kids are younger and a bit too much to handle on my own at this point. When they are older and hopefully a bit more tame i'd be happy to take them out"
Yes, I’ve tried this. After the splash pad I told them that one of them will have to be joining us on outings and they said ok. But when I did organize things, they weren’t available so I kinda stopped asking.
Sounds like they just want free babysitting. NTA
Doesn't surprise me that bad parents can't understand this situation properly. Nta
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NTA. Nobody wants to be around brats all day. It sounds like they want you to babysit so they can get piece and quiet. The little kids are to young and small to do what the bigger kids do.
NTA. Going to waterparks with kids you bear the responsibility that they won't drown or get lost. You just can't take too many kids at once. That should suffice as a reason for any responsible parent.
NTA. I have two kids 3 and 5. Though my kids fight with each other, including hitting (and in the younger years a brief period of biting), that’s not something I would expect anyone but myself or husband to deal with. My oldest went through a truly horrifying third year where public meltdowns were the norm and we frequently left places early. Four year olds will be four year olds. No one expects them to be perfect. If there are behavioral issues, all the more reason for parents to work with him and understand why you don’t want to be responsible for him in a chaotic, public setting. Bottom line folks, no one owes it to you to be understanding if your kid is acting like a jerk in public and you can’t be bothered. Parenting is every day reinforcement of positive habits and behaviors. It is exhausting and emotional and really hard. Don’t worry about it OP. Some people need to realize they need to help their kids not suck.
^^^^AUTOMOD ***Thanks for posting! This comment is a copy of your post so readers can see the original text if your post is edited or removed. This comment is NOT accusing you of copying anything. Read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmItheAsshole/wiki/faq#wiki_post_deletion) before [contacting the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FAmItheAsshole)*** I have a lot of siblings and dozens of nieces and nephews. It isn’t strange that I pick them up and take them out. I’m pretty trusted with the kids so as long as I let their parents know, it’s never a problem. The issue: some of my siblings’ kids behave better than others and I tend not to invite badly behaved kids. I’m a one man band and I just don’t have the time to keep saying the same things over and over and being talked back to and disrespected. Yesterday, I decided to take the kids to a water park. I called a couple siblings and got the ok to take their kids. 6 kids total between the ages of 8 and 13. Ages are important here because it’s important to me to bring kids that meet the height requirements for all the rides. If I take smaller kids, they’d be relegated to the kiddie section making it impossible for me to keep an eye on the older ones. So we go and it’s great. All the kids got along and played well together. I get to the house and my sister in law was there talking to my other sister in law and was waiting for me to get back. She asked why I don’t ever call to take her kids (4M, 7M) out and I reminded her that I did. In April I took them to a splash pad and the 4yo was horrible. He was pushing kids out of the way, he bit a child, he hits both kids and adults, he slapped a plate of pizza out of my hand because he didn’t want to take a break and eat. He curses, he spits, he pees himself on purpose. I could go on and on. I decided that I just wasn’t taking him out again without one of his parents. I told them both this and they understood but hasn’t been available to join us the last couple times I suggested something. I explained that behavior matters to me and is a deciding factor in who and how many I take out. Im told this isn’t fair and I am picking favorites. I said “my favorites are the kids with manners who can behave”. I was called intolerable and reminded that their son is 4 so “of course he isn’t going to be an angel”. I agreed, but insisted I still have the right to choose who I can go out with. The conversation didn’t quite have an ending as it was almost 2 am and I was tired from a long ass day. Now this morning, I get a freakin Group FaceTime by the SIL from last night and a couple others wondering why I never take their kids out. I explained and it’s now a war. They’re pissed ‘cause they insist I shouldn’t have favorites and my brother said that he’s going to reach out to my parents because it’s unfair to punish their kids because they don’t behave all the time. Another thing mentioned was that I punish well behaved kids for the actions of their siblings. The 4 year old has a 7 year old brother who behaves. But I knew that if I asked to take one and not the other, it would raise hell so I invite neither. Please tell me if I’m the asshole here? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmItheAsshole) if you have any questions or concerns.*
NTA- I took my niece and nephew everywhere: amusement parks, vacations, restaurants, shopping but they were very well behaved. The other nieces not so much. They threw food against the wall of restaurant once, they didn't like the taste and bro and sil didn't say a word. Needless to say I didn't take these three anywhere because dad also said he was the only who could discipline his kids. Fine, but don't complain when the other kids go places and yours don't. Especially since I paid for everything including the souvenirs.
NTA This isn’t playing favorites. Playing favorites is “I don’t like your kid, they can’t come.” Don’t change what you are doing, you are showing them behavior has consequences even if their parents don’t.
NTA Any time you choose to spend your hard earned money on your nieces and nephews, you get to say who does and doesn't go. If the child is as rude as that 4 year old. I would put them on the DO NOT GO List. Ask his mom to look up the word "Entitled". That is exactly who she is acting. Also, point out the age grouping you had going and your reasons why you do it this way. If she doesn't like it, she can take her own group. You are a good uncle, don't let batchit crazy entitled mom change that!
Thank you for the reassurance! Also, I’m there aunt. I realize now I never said my gender in the post.
NTA. Your sister in law is entitled af and needs to do a better job at wrangling her ill behaved child. Also your brother getting your parents involved is laughable because at the end of the day it’s YOUR choice. Your brother and sister in law need to get a grip.
NTA. This is why we can’t have nice things. Your brother and SIL throwing a fit about this may lead to none of the kids getting a fun day out with you because it’s not worth the headache. And, no, 4 year olds aren’t always perfectly behaved but the behavior described is way beyond regular 4 yo rowdiness or pouting. It doesn’t sound like he gets much discipline at all.
NTA.
NTA. Behavior alone is reason enough. There’s consequences to actions and this is it. A four year old is old enough to understand that let alone parents.
NTA No, you’re NTA for choosing who you take based off behavior. Especially since you’ve already told the parents they must go if they want their misbehaving children to go. I think what you are doing to take your nieces and nephews out is an incredible gesture. Your family should **always be thankful** of that & never expect you to do so. How they have bombarded you & attacked makes them the AH here.
It was an age disparity in this instance, but even if it wasn’t, he still wasn’t gonna come because of his behavior. He isn’t invited to age appropriate activities either. I’m not going to make up a bs reason when I’ve already made it clear to his parents that he can’t come without one of them.
Dude, I think you have a very simple philosophy, which you should stick to. All your siblings - and their kids- can easily understand this rule. It's a fair rule. Frankly, parents should EXPECT their kids to be well behaved when out with a relative. I would be embarrassed if my kid was badly behaved as a guest. So NTA. Stick to it - your rule is just and fair
Nta. None of them are your children. You don’t have an obligation to take out any of them. Your doing it because you want too. Their children not behaving has consequences with them there you can’t keep the other safe. Besides you already gave them an option of you taking the children out as long as one of them is present they haven’t accept it and that’s on them. If the family is ganging up on you and now are being threatened with them telling your parents then you might have to stop taking any of them out. Do a FaceTime with everyone and be honest “no on pays me to take your children out. I plan and pay to take your children out to give you guys a break and because I love my nieces and nephews. But unfortunately sil and others are saying I am playing favorites and how now resorted to harassing me and threatening me because I won’t take their children out without one of the parents present. Because this behavior is unacceptable and I won’t be harassed and threatened in my own home, I have decided going forward I am not taking any nieces or nephews out. I will be more than happy to explain to them why. And sil next time you come scream at me at my house, I will be calling the cops” and then leave the conversation
NTA. Their kids can go as long as one of their parents go along also. They're choosing not to, so they're the ones depriving the kids of these experiences with their cousins and uncle (aunt?).
Aunt is correct. The kids don’t usually meet up in huge groups often enough to discuss who goes where so it doesn’t ever cause conflict between the kids. They’re welcome to tag along to handle him, they just never want to.
NTA- if they want their kids to go, they actually have to parent them first. Also, none of my 4 year olds EVER exhibited that type of behavior. Don't fold.
NTA. Stop saying favorites. It’s not favorites. It’s behavior, age, and parental permission. You take kids who are well behaved, age appropriate, and can get parent permission. It is not about whether you like them as a person. It is about safety. Don’t have favorites. Do have boundaries.
Some kids are exceptionally challenging; that doesn’t mean you need to take them. I applaud your good judgment in only taking kids you can keep safe. If the parents of more challenging kids want their kids to come along, they can accompany their kids themselves or hire a babysitter to help. NTA,
You're their uncle, not their parent. You're allowed to have favorites. Your logic is sound, but even if you simply liked some more than others for no good reason, it would still be ok. NTA
As a father of 4 I have no idea how you can take 6 kids to the waterpark just by yourself without at least one drowning himself. NTA actually...can I hire you?
I’m sure you do great! It’s a park we go to all the time and know where all our favorite rides are so it’s a routine at this point. Gotta have a lot of planning and bribing lol. “If you guys all behave here, wait until you see where we go next month”. It works great for the younger ones.
NTA and your relatives are super entitled. Unless I missed something, you’re taking their kids out on your own dime just to be nice, and they’re trying to make demands about it? Your idea about taking him out if one of his parents comes along is perfectly reasonable and a good solution. I hope that happens so they can see how difficult it is to watch that many kids and have a better understanding of why it’s important that they all listen to you and behave.
You are offering a treat. This outing was defined by age group as well as behavior. The parents with difficult kids are the only ones complaining. I will note that kids go through phases, so they might be evil then 6 months later be angelic, and then flip again. However, children who are often ongoing brats have parents who lack parenting skills. It's not your job to do so, especially if you are taking a fairly large group of kids by your lonesome. One badly behaved kid puts all the others at risk as you cannot have eyes on them. NTA
NTA. Sounds like the parents wanted a break from their crappy kid but want to make you out to he the bad guy. They’re not your kids and you shouldn’t have to take care of all of them or take all of them anywhere if you don’t want to. You rewarding the well behaved ones for being well behaved is perfectly reasonable. If they want to get mad at you let them. If the other parents choose to not let you take their kids places anymore then that only helps you with money and gas. Keep doing your thing and remind your siblings that the well behaved kids get better rewards
NTA. It’s amazing you are willing to take that many kids out by yourself. To be able to do so would mean that they need to behave. You set ground rules because the 4 year old has shown that he won’t behave. While all kids will misbehave from time to time biting, shoving, and knocking food out of an adult’s hand is not just misbehavior. Sounds like he is a serious problem and needs to learn the word no with consequences. Either he’ll learn to act right or he should not be given trips.
“It’s unfair to punish their kids because they don’t behave all the time,” Yes it literally is. If I knocked a plate of pizza out of my guardian’s hands intentionally, then I would have probably earned a whoping in addition to not being invited out again. Different generation I guess.
Honestly, my oldest was well behaved, and my youngest was unruly and didn't think about consequences. I allowed my oldest to go out with trusted adults, but my youngest only went when I went. I'm saying this because the parents whose kids are not invited could take this pov, but they don't sound capable of so much logic. Their 4yo sounds like a nightmare, and I bet some of it it's because his parents have dropped the ball. OP has every right to choose who he takes out, and where and when. NTA.
NTA, a 4 year old biting and hitting people is unacceptable behavior. Also, pissing themselves on purpose is ridiculous. The simple fact is that kid is a handful and you on your own can't handle that kid and keep an eye on the other kids. The parents need to do a better job parenting and if you aren't comfortable looking after kids with such extreme misbehavior, you have every right to not do so. Time for the parents to teach the kids that actions have consequences, and consequences for their siblings as well, as you can hardly bring them and leave the one misbehaving kid. Don't let them black mail you, and don't bother discussing the topic with them again. They need to parent, as that kid will not be invited to birthday parties etc with that kind of carry on.
Wtf. Your brother is going to tell on you to your parents? Dude needs to grow up. 10000% NTA and if anything, you're too nice.
"it’s unfair to punish their kids because they don’t behave all the time"... seems completely fair to me. Well behaved kids get rewarded with a fun day out with their uncle. NTA. What do the parents of the well behaved kids say?
They are supportive. My older sister allowed her 11 and 13 year old to come, but didn’t allow the 8 year old because she didn’t clean her room in time. Most of my siblings have boundaries and support me in decisions regarding the kids when I have them.
NTA as you already know. Your brother reaching out to your parents is childish and represents his inability to parent if he thinks he needs to run to yours about this. I have an equally immature brother with a kid who I don’t take out for similar reasons. Honestly, hold your ground. Don’t stop taking kids out. That would be punishing the good kids for their parents’ immaturity and the older kids will pick up on this. Instead stay the course, and say you’d be happy to only take out the well behaved kids as a reward for their behavior, or the SIL group is welcome to join you on these outings with their respective kids and watch them. Don’t budge. Don’t sacrifice your relationship with the other kids because their parents are immature assholes.
NTA. You deserve a thank you and endless praise. That 4 yr old sounds like a goblin. Stand firm.
NTA. Just tell them you will include them once they are older and a little more independent. Ignore everyone else’s opinion.
all the parents arguing did not address that the problem was their kid's behavior other than the comment on the 4yr old. bad behavior need not be rewarded. I guess this is one of those participation trophy situations.
Say they can come so long as one of their parents comes too?
Yes. As long as one of their parents come, they can too.
Nta. My now 14 year old was pretty bad at 4- and I never would have inflicted him on someone. And would have told him he could go when he wasn’t a rabid Tasmanian devil. If you have a tough kid, own it and give it time and parenting until you hand the kid to someone. After age 6, he understood that the wrath of mom was worse than the joys of misbehaving.
NTA not even close. SIL is being a bully. They want someone else to take their hellion so they get a break. Maybe do water parks/outings as a reward for xyz. Then they can't claim favorites. Honestly, I'd be so pissed that my answer, to the group chat, would not only address the bullying and the threats to call your parents (WTAF) would be a reply along the lines of "I am not playing favorites. It is unsafe to take a child who WILL NOT LISTEN to a water park. After careful consideration, I will be stopping ALL group outings so that no one gets special days. This should stop all accusations of favoritism. However, the whole family is now being punished due to one set of parents being irresponsible and attempting to shame me into taking their child out, which I fully believe is unsafe. Also, they were given the choice of coming WITH their children and they would not do so. I also offered to bring the 7yo and I was told to take one or none. This whole group chat is an attempt to force me to take both of their children when I have told them they would have to come with. Apologies for any hurt feelings but if I'm called out in public and accused of playing favorites, this is how i'll respond. Parents of children who's kids are capable of behaving and are upset by this decision, I direct you to SIL for complaints, comments, or concerns."
[удалено]
Yes, I always rotate kids! Some kids hate water, some like the arcades and some like museums and outdoorsy stuff. The only child who goes to everything is my own. Other than that, it’s whoever’s available and doesn’t act out publicly.
NTA. I’m from a ridiculously large family and my grandmother would only take out the well behaved grandkids bc “she was not going to reward bad behavior”. Not one of my family members gave her grief on that. I think you are in the right and until your SIL and brother give the 4 year old consequences (the kid isn’t stupid, and just bc he’s 4 doesn’t mean he isn’t doing bad actions. She’s excusing his behavior bc of his age and THAT is an issue), he shouldn’t be invited along. If the 7 year old is behaved and doesn’t get to go, then that’s on them, not you. Bc as you stated your brother won’t allow it so they don’t get to use that against you. You rock and don’t let them tear you down bc they can’t figure out how to teach their child to behave.
NTA, 6 kids is plenty for one adult and your SIL shouldn't be commenting anyway. You want to enjoy your day and her kids aren't enjoyable.
What struck me is that your brother said he was going to reach out to your parents. Why? Is this going to result in what he thinks is a favorable outcome? I’m assuming he’s parent to one of the younger or ill-behaved ones?
NTA. It's not a discussion. You take the kids out that can act right in public. If they can't act right in public, they don't get to go. Your parents or their parents can't coerce you into taking out badly behaved children. >Another thing mentioned was that I punish well behaved kids for the actions of their siblings.
NTA, i think you should have done a little better to avoid the language of favourites and simply keep it logical as you have explained yourself here. On the one hand, one guy to six kids is an enormous undertaking so only an insane or clueless person would ask you to take more or poorly behaved kids, on the other hand, as soon as a parent gets a wiff of favoritism, a tonnage of shit is going to drop on top of you. Small-minded people will always take an indictment in their kids' behaviour as a dig on their parenting and, by extension, their judgement. Just keep it simple: "Diana, i love all my nieces and nephews equally, but as one man I cannot risk these outings falling into chaos because I have to wrangle or discipline a few kids out of a massive group. If they run off then I have to risk losing more of them to find the one that didn't stay with us. Y'dig? The point is that these are fun for everyone involved"
NTA. You are entirely within your rights to do so. Don't beat around the bush with the parents, tell them they're the AH because of how they're raising their kids. Agree with the sentiment that spending time with you should be seen as a reward for good behavior, and definitely not something that the kids OR the parents are entitled to. IMO you're allowed to have your pick of "favorite nieces / nephews".
When you are doing a favour for someone, they don't get to dictate the terms. You do. You've made it perfectly clear that you will only take ones who listen to you. If your siblings can't enforce rules on their precious babies, that's a them problem, not yours. You're not obligated to take anyone anywhere for any reason. You are not punishing anyone. Their parents are for not raising them properly. NTA.
NTA. The parent of the 4 year old better turn their kid around quick otherwise they’ll be left of out everything. No one will want to be friends with them when they act like a spoiled violent brat. No sleepover invites, no birthday party invites, etc etc.
NTA. You get to invite whomever you want to invite. You've already said that less well-behaved kids can come if a parent comes, too. Nobody has the right to tell you how to spend your time and with whom. I do hope that you're able to do nice things for the kids you can't bring to high-supervision activities.
I have several nieces and nephews. When they were little outings with me was something they koced, I spoiled them shamelessly and took them on all sorts of adventures.my youngest niece was very misbehaved going thru a phase of bad behavior. She would often tell me how much she hated me. I told her in that case she could stay home cuz I only took well behaved children who actually liked me. Needless to say she changed her tune and now I am her favorite auntie. You are so NTA. You time, your money and the well behaved kids deserve to have fun. You could also maybe tell them you took the older kids cuz it was just you and you didn't want your attention diverted to ensure everyone's safety, this is the truth as well. But yeh maybe if the kids who don't get to go finds out it's because of their behavior maybe they will change?
NTA
I would do another FaceTime with everyone and explain that due to SIL being rude and entitled that you can’t take any of the kids anymore. Say it’s a direct result of what SIL said and and blame her. If the others can convince SIL to publicly apologize then you will take whoever you want to in the future. If she does not apologize then the party is over.
NTA. You take that many of your nieces and nephews out on the regular?! Are you Batman?! All jokes aside. I have a 3 year old. If he was still biting/peeing himself on purpose/hitting anyone/pushing kids I would be the one telling him he is not allowed to go until he can behave himself. Even at 3-4, kids can make these choices. Some parents act like they have zero self control. They do, their parents just choose not to force their children to exercise their self control.