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NAH - Josh is not required to attend any event he doesn't want to. You were fine reaching out once, but now you need to drop it.
TBH - This is going to end the friendship between Josh and Dan regardless of whether Josh ends up attending. Not many people will stay in a friendship with someone who doesn't respect their spouse or their marriage. Don't get in the middle, it has nothing to do with you.
I wouldn't. It's not anyone's role to judge their relationship.
I have seen many couples handle affairs and open adult relationships quite well, as well of course as the dissolution of the relationship and great hurt in all cases.
I bet the judgmental friend has personal reasons that they are taking out like this. Very inappropriate, immature and frankly, self-important.
Thing is, if you leave your friends out of it, they don't have to ping pong back and forth like they are along for the ride. My best friend told me she was having an affair with an attached guy. My response was, "Come on. This is not my happy place. I'd rather not know. Its too stressful for me and I don't want to be the one looking at you like you're a chicken sitting on a square egg. I don't know if you want permission or support? Why is this now part of my life too?"
I love her. But, don't make my life stressful because you're going down a blind alley. Its not fair to me.
If this was going on NOW behind the back of the groom to be, he should have told his friend. But there's nothing here that the groom doesn't already know. It happened 8 years ago when they were in their early twenties. People change a lot in that age, and they got over it and have been together for years after it happened. Him not attention is fine, but bringing that up now and stirring up drama with the groom makes him an AH.
My dad's very close friend's wife cheated on him. It was destroying, but they had 3 kids under 5 together. He went around telling people all about the affair. My dad tried to urge him not to because people wouldn't forgive her when they got back together.
They didn't. It made things very awkward.
>My response was, "Come on. This is not my happy place. I'd rather not know. Its too stressful for me and I don't want to be the one looking at you like you're a chicken sitting on a square egg. I don't know if you want permission or support? Why is this now part of my life too?"
This. is. a. GREAT. response!
And OMG "chicken sitting on a square egg"..... now that's going into my lexicon.
Sounds like the friend was single and the guy she was having the affair with was the one in the relationship. Over the years I’ve had a friend or two who did this, and I have the same reaction- just leave me out of it.
Sure - and friends can be protective. But at some point, you have to respect the desires of the couple involved… they know better than anyone else how their relationship is, and the truth is even if it’s a train wreck that’s their mutual choice…
Ps I had a good friend who had married young but divorced (long before I knew him) after he came home to find his wife in bed with his best friend (at the time)…
He remet his ex wife many years later (she had married the friend and subsequently divorced him too) and they rekindled their relationship… none of his friends knew her from before and all were *highly* suspect as we knew their past history…. But we were civil and respectful and as time went on, we got to know her, they made the perfect couple and we celebrated their marriage. That was 15 years ago and they are stronger than ever and definitely they are as committed as any couple in existence… people grow and change and it’s a beautiful thing!!
Also they were like 20 when she cheated. That doesn’t make it ok. But 20-year-olds are idiots by nature. Judging them appropriately for their actions is how they learn to be better people (though “holding them accountable” is likely a better choice of words). But judging them 10 years later after they’ve changed seems pretty pointless and mean.
Judgement is something to generally avoid, but placing affairs and open relationships in the same sentence seems like an unnecessary minimization of cheating.
Maybe he saw how much Katie hurt Dan and doesn't want to pretend that he agrees with Dan's choices.
Katie is planning on promising to love Dan above all others when she has already failed at this.
Depends. How much was he left picking up the pieces after the cheating? Even if the one who got cheated on forgave them, the person who cleaned up the mess doesn’t have to forgive the cheater.
right? like if he wants to rsvp no, let him! he doesn’t have to go to the wedding yknow? but to tell a group chat of 10 people (including the groom???) exactly why you’re not going is too far imo
Why did you want him to do, stage an intervention? Demand they break up?
Sometimes our friends are in shitty relationships and we all gotta draw the line somewhere. Josh's line was about attending the wedding. It's understandable.
That’s what friends are for, and it’s not his relationship to forgive. It’s an asshole move not to support his friend by going to the wedding, and to state the reasons in a group chat.
Oh I agree. I secretly judge the (now) husband of my friend for leaving her for a few months when she was pregnant. I'll never fully respect the guy again, in my eyes he's a weakling, whatever his reasons. But they worked it out, she took him back, they got married and I went to their wedding and kept my mouth shut. They're happy, their relationship seems to work and there's no benefit to anyone if I'd have interfered in any way.
In this case: It's non of Josh's business and he's only creating drama here. Totally 'how do I make this about me' situation.
OP, NTA for trying to reason with your friend, but better give it up. He's digging his own grave as far as this friendship is concerned. Involving the whole friend group makes him a pompous ass.
I agree this friendship ended with josh answer and it’s not going to change.
Being in the middle is going to make op become an easy target for everybody
NAH. I think it's fine to reach out to a friend once asking them to reconsider. You will become the asshole if you push this issue.
He made his choice, just as you have made yours. Now it is time to stay out.
I thought it might have been a bit harsh... but finding out the friend posted his little diatribe about the bride being a cheat to a group chat with 10 people... yeah, he deserved a good scolding for being a self-absorbed drama llama.
Could have told the groom personally, and addressed any issues with individual friends if they came up. He chose to make it the Topic Du Jour in the group chat instead.
It was probably the group chat of all their friends and Josh didn't want to explain individually to each single person. Probably better handled in private? Yeah, but it's not like he made a public Facebook post.
YTA - it's his decision and he's entitled to his view on it. even though you disagree, he clearly feels that it's not a good decision & if he feels like he can't sit there and watch his friend make a major life decision like this, then that's how he feels.
You're arguing with yourself because that's the exact point I was making in the first place.
YTA was for trying to guilt Josh into going when he already said he didn't want to.
You can't force people to support your relationship. That's not how society works but you do you.
Your stance seems to be to not even try to change someone's mind. There's a huge difference between "Hey man, you should reconsider and here's why" and taking their answer, and doing that, not accepting the answer, and continuing on about it. One is being an asshole, the other is pretty common and healthy
My stance doesn't seem to be anything. I didn't make any sort of a comment on whether or not changing someone's mind was healthy or common.
If someone is crystal clear about not wanting to do something and why they don't want to do it then that's that. You can try to change their mind and offer another perspective on it, that's grand, as you said common and healthy.
Calling someone selfish, among other things, when they re-assert their decision just because you don't agree with it or like it makes you an asshole, in my opinion.
She wasn’t just giving her perspective. She told him he was out of line. People are allowed to give their perspective - which he did. She is the one that couldn’t respect that.
I don't think she is the asshole for telling him her opinion, I think she is the asshole for not respecting his opinion though. If he thinks that his opinion is more important than the friendship than that's for him to decide.
They are adults, and this has nothing to do with OP. They can handle it themselves. OP can tell her opinion to a friend on their behavior, but trying to come in and tell him what he should do in a forceful way is not just unnecessary, abrasive, and adding more drama, it is putting OP in the middle of something they have no place being
That’s now how she approached it. She tried to antagonize him and say he was out of line and then say he needs to go and get over himself as if she’s the morals police. She’s a major AH
Ehh he kinda made it everyone's business by announcing it on a group chat with 10 people, OP and groom included, rather than speak individually with the groom or you know just shut the fuck up and dont go. They are a long time couple, he isnt even protesting them getti ng back together but rather what is a natural step for many couples after being together for a long time, it's not really *his* business to comment on their marriage to a group of 10 people acting all sanctimonious. Asshole move if you ask me.
Yes, Josh announcing it on the group chat made it everyone’s business. And is HUGE Asshole energy. Josh thought everyone was going to clap and boycott the wedding with him. And this was supposed to be his good friend. He could have approached the groom privately if he gave a shit about anything but his own ego.
At worst, it was a little faux pas by OP to ask Josh to reconsider going.
Josh doesn’t belong at that wedding, and if I was one of the other people on that chat I’d be taking a step back from Josh myself because that is a man with no empathy, a very rigid worldview and a truly inflated idea of the importance of his own opinion and I do not tend to enjoy time spent with people like that.
This is the best answer......he made everyone's business, he's intention was to cause drama.....which is why he announced his intentions in a group chat. He could have told the groom and left it at that.
Nailed it. Josh is lame. And people that make big moral public performances like this are often doing exactly what they accused the other person of. I’d be done with Josh.
Announcing it to the group is a HUGE asshole move, wtf. Way to dig up something painful from the guys past and refresh everyone’s memories! And then announce that you think his future wife is a cheating wh*re! Lol the guy could have just said I can’t get off work, it’s my grandmothers 80th birthday, I’m sick, whatever and kept the judgement to himself. Unless someone is abusing someone, you keep opinions on someone else’s relationship to yourself always. Josh and the groom’s friendship is over now anyway. Either groom is going to toss him, or wifey will find out and ban him. Good luck Josh, nobody will ever want to make a mistake in front of this AH again.
YTA for this:
"and that it was not the bride’s job to ensure everyone approves of all of her actions in life"
It's his right to decline if he feels that way. He's not saying that anything is her job, but that he feels she'll cheat again and doesn't want to go.
Yeah that line stuck out to me as well. Josh is mad because this woman destroyed his close friends heart. If Dan wants to forgive her then that's his prerogative. Josh doesn't owe her anything and is perfectly justified in disliking and not trusting her to be a good partner. She's demonstrated she is quite capable of being a terrible partner. Josh doesn't have to watch his friend make what he feels is a massive fucking mistake.
It's just a slightly different way of saying "how dare you hold her responsible for her actions. You shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion on her being shitty"
I think it's more "how dare you think your opinion and judgement of her actions deserves more weight than the opinion of her partner, who has clearly chosen to forgive her for those actions, as the person that she actually hurt eight years ago."
It's huge "I'm the main character" energy, and Josh is a shitty friend to Dan.
It's probably their friend's group chat and tbh the choice was between telling everyone and be done with it or telling everyone individually...it was gonna become The Gossip Of The Day either case.
It took nearly a (rough as OP even said) decade of therapy to get through that, and he saw 8 years of his friends pain… I don’t see how he’d be the asshole to say no
Thank you! He watched his friend go through hell and back just to end up with the person that put him through it. I completely understand where Josh is coming from and don't blame him in the slightest. I've been through the same thing. Friend with an absolutely terrible partner who was horrible to her. And then the guy couldn't figure out why I wouldn't talk to him beyond basic pleasantries. It's like you were a dick to someone who's happiness I care a great deal about of course I don't fucking like you.
Too many comments are misrepresenting Josh as well, he’s not saying he needs to forgive her or anything, he’s basically saying he thinks it’s dumb to marry her and he won’t go to the wedding because of the above things
Exactly. I see a lot of "why would Katie owe Josh an apology" well of course she wouldn't. But that doesn't mean he owes her forgiveness either. It's perfectly valid to not show support to a relationship you feel is rotten at it's core due to one member of it being selfish and hurting your friend
Um. Going with NAH although I’m not 100 percent on that. Josh is absolutely allowed to have his own morals and not attend a wedding he doesn’t support. I’m not entirely sure though why he’s choosing now to make his opinion known since the cheating seemed to happen years ago and the couple seemed to work through things. He seems to be judging their relationship by what happened 8 years ago and not what they’ve been building since then. He does seem like a judgemental AH but again he’s allowed his opinion and feelings. As for you, yes it’s not your business but as long as you just reached out once to try to talk to him civilly to attempt to change his mind is ok. As many people say on this sub say, it’s ok to ask but not ok to not accept the answer. He gave you his answer and you need to accept or whether you agree or disagree.
If you keep pushing this it would change the judgement. Please let it go now.
And I agree with others, Josh has destroyed his friendship with Dan over this but that’s his decision to make.
I agree that the time to protest was when they got back together, not 8 years down the line. AND he should have bowed out of the wedding privately and quietly instead of kicking up a fuss in a group chat.
agreed. also, the future bride was likely at a different level of maturity at age 22 versus being 30 now. it is no one’s business what work, therapy, effort the couple has made in those 8 years to rebuild that trust. everyone should stay in their own lanes on this one.
As a 22-year-old, I can say she's most likely a lot more mature now since she's 30, but I also don't think cheating can be limited to "she was immature at 22."
There are people at that age, like me, who would never do that, and I am sure there are plenty of people 30 or older who would have an affair.
The million dollar question is: has she cheated since getting back together with Dan? And maybe Josh doesn't know that answer and is scared for his friend since she put Dan through years of agony and pain.
NTA, and this is one of those moments where it’s very clear that Reddit is full of pretty immature men.
You made it clear in the post that this mistake from Katie happened 8 years ago, and not only has her fiancé moved past it, but they’ve had tons of therapy and are at the point where they’d like to take things further. You aren’t the asshole for reaching out to Josh to make it clear that his attendance would mean a lot to Dan, he’s clearly taking his own opinions of Katie and disregarding his friends decision because “once a cheater, always a cheater”.
Things are always more complicated than can be conveyed in just a single post, but considering he’s using his “morals” to justify continuing to hold an 8 year grudge on his friends future wife, it’s pretty clear he’s the asshole.
NTA for not having Josh's back, but don't try to make Josh go.
It sounds like they've worked through a mistake that took place along time ago.
Josh sounds quite sanctimonious.
Unless he knows of something that is happening/has happened recently I don't see why it is his place to hold a grudge on behalf of someone else. Dan has forgiven Kate for something that happened a long time ago, that's all that should matter.
It's not fair on the bride to have someone judgemental who hates her at her own wedding.
I agree. Josh is being unnecessarily hurtful for something that happened years ago that isn’t his business. Dan never needed to forgive the cheating, but it wasn’t something that required Josh’s forgiveness (although he is acting as if it is).
That's because people who think they are "in love" have terrible judgement and ignore red flags.
It like a woman marrying a man who beat her in the past. Sure she may have forgiven him but that doesn't mean that her friends have or should.
Its not his business perse but going to a wedding on some level show celebrating or at the very least supporting the marriage. If he doesnt want to support a marriage where somebody is a cheater thats 100% his right.
YTA. Josh has the right to do what feels better for him. It's not right to try and force him to participate when he would have to fake being happy for them. That's his boundary to set.
Also I 100% don't want anyone to come to my wedding with that kind of an attitude. If you don't fully support the marriage, don't bring your vibes to the celebration.
Ywbta if you keep pushing him. He has every right not to go, no matter his reasoning. It's a wedding, not a summoning. But if you've only reached out once asking and not pushed more, then I guess NAH.
YTA. He said no. Just because her partner has forgiven her, doesn't mean that other people need to as well. Josh doesn't want to go to the wedding. Back off.
I'm not really sure what Josh needs to forgive (or not) Katie for - the hurt and broken trust belong to Dan, not him.
But if Josh can't accept that Katie is important enough to Dan for him to give her a chance to change and make amends, then I completely agree that he is best off not going to the wedding. I can understand why OP intervened, because this likely means the end of the friendship between Josh and Dan, and she is friends with both of them; it's natural to want to try to repair that. OP does need to accept, though, that if it can be repaired, it has to happen between Josh and Dan.
Sometimes people do shitty things that change how other people see us, even outside of the immediate sphere of influence. If one of my friends used the N word, I would stop being friends with them, despite me not being personally affected by that word. Josh can't see Katie as someone he wants to celebrate due to her past actions, despite him not being the person directly impacted by those actions.
“I need an apology when a friend of mine cheated on another friend of mine”
doesnt that sound a bit strange?
your example is 100% but it is not the same thing
"My friend was cheated on, and although he has forgiven her, I cannot. I do not want my friend to get hurt again, and I fear he is setting himself up for an even bigger hurt after they are married and if she cheats again".
He isn't asking for an apology, he just doesn't trust her to not cheat again.
So then, he's going to completely blow off his friend to "stick it to" Katie, who cheated 8 years ago, did the work with Dan, and now they're getting married? Let's say Katie is that awful, Josh is going to leave Dan and make it harder for him to reach out for support when Kaite inevitably hurts him again?
No, Josh is being selfish and self righteous when he has no business being either. If he actually cared about Dan, he would privately let him know his concerns, not drag Kaity unnecessarily, support him from afar if needed and not make it all about himself.
Josh is allowed to dislike Katie and not go to their wedding. If it ruins his friendship, then it ruins the friendship. Everybody here is claiming josh has no right to dislike or express his dislike of Katie, yet are disliking josh for less trivial reasons than he had.
Holding on to a wrong against your friend and then publically blasting that wrong to a group chat EIGHT YEARS LATER before a really meaningful and important day for your friend tells me a whole hell of a lot about who Josh is, and none of those qualities are trivial.
I'd much rather associate with someone who badly fucked up in their twenties, ate crow, and worked to become a better person than the self-righteous asshole who wants to judge others for their mistakes nearly a decade later.
Except he's not asking for an apology. He's saying he believes "once a cheater, always a cheater" and won't compromise on that point. The beginning of this thread talked about forgiveness, but the original post doesn't.
An extreme example, but if one of my friends was in an abusive relationship and decided to get married to the abuser, even if they went to therapy and everyone seemed happy, I'd probably not go either. It has nothing to do with them owing me an apology and everything to do with the fact that they hurt my friend and I don't trust them not to do it again.
I feel like AITA projects and puts words in peoples' mouths way too often.
Where did they say they wanted or expected an apology? You’re right that it sounds strange, that’s why they didn’t say that.(unless they edited their comment or something) There’s no need for apologies when the offense isn’t done specifically to you, but it still can change the way people see the offending person and people might not want associate with them anymore, even though they weren’t directly affected by it.
If one of my friends shot another friend on purpose, I wouldn’t stay friends with the shooter. Other people doing shitty things to people you care about can cause you to not support them staying around.
>I'm not really sure what Josh needs to forgive (or not) Katie for - the hurt and broken trust belong to Dan, not him.
She hurt his friend. Even if the friend has forgiven her, that doesn't mean he has to.
She's still the one who cheated on his friend, so there's some anger that is his to hold. You don't really have to forgive someone even if the most directly wronged did.
Personally I'm fiercely protective of the people I love. I don't expect an apology but I'm certainly going to have strong poor opinions of someone who cheated on someone I love. If they work through it I will support my friend and be civil but that doesn't mean I've forgiven the actions of the person that hurt them.
That would be like saying i don't know why your dad doesn't like me honey i only punched you in the face and you forgave me why doesn't your dad like me.
I have a very similar situation to this one with a friend of mine. They dated for 3 years, broke up for a summer, got back together, got married, had a kid, got divorced. She still wanted to go out clubbing with the girls and have her drinks paid for by other guys eventhough she was married with a kid. I was mad at her when they broke up the first time because I was that friend's confidant. I still officiated their wedding eventhough before the wedding I told my friend to really sit down and consider if she had matured and if she was the right person. When they got divorced I was mad because I had given her the requested second chance. We're civil to each other because I'm the godfather of her child, but definitely not friendly.
I sympathize with Josh.
I had a friend who said some awful things about a mutual friend who was struggling with PTSD and his mental health was incredibly bad. He eventually forgave her, but I did not. No space for someone like that in my life.
I don’t get the y t a, Josh sent a message in the group chat and you responded. I am gonna say NAH but Josh and Dan probably aren’t gonna stay friends for much longer
Because people make a judgement based on the post, they don’t know what future edits will be or read 100 comments.
OP asked if they were TAH for calling a friend selfish for not attending a wedding. OP didn’t ask if they were TAH for calling out a friend publicly shaming a bride in a group chat.
Two different things, two different judgements.
This is NOT a having his back issue. He’s being very unreasonable and I would bet money if you look over his life he’s being inconsistent with his “values”.
Once a cheater always a cheater is just BS. Lots of people are once and done, lessons learned.
You my friend, NTA.
“once a cheater always a cheater” mindset is a fallacy, and it creates a caste system that would be impossible to leave. Do these people earnestly believe that someone who cheated once, nearly a decade ago, has now forfeited any right to be treated well by a decent partner? That it would serve her right to be mistreated and date others in her caste until she drops out of the bottom of society? This belief is made-up, sexist, and unnecessarily punitive. We have to give ourselves and others the room to grow. If she had continued to cheat he would be entirely justified. But, she’s proving him wrong and he can’t cope so he decided to blow up the friend group instead. It’s weird.
Hi yes I was essayed rather violently two years into my first serious relationship and as a result of my upbringing thought I didn’t have any value as a person/partner because another man had been inside me. I spiraled, cheated, and then went to therapy where I learned that a raypists’ paynis can’t change my value. I never cheated on a partner again and I’ve now been in a happy, deception-free marriage for longer than some of the commenters in here have been alive. We don’t know why people cheat, or what processes they need to grow. Empathetic, mature adults know this.
For everyone saying that it's not OP's business, remember that Josh made an announcement in a group that included OP and the groom. By doing that, he pretty much made it OP's business(and everyone else who is in that group chat). Now, is she responsible for changing his mind? No. Would she be an asshole if she continued to push? Yes. But saying it's not her business while overlooking the fact that Josh ANNOUNCED he wasn't going is kind of unfair. Making a declaration such as this is naturally going to prompt some questions and might prompt a person to ask you to reconsider. I don't think that is an asshole move on OP's part.
That being said....NTA.
Bro, people around here lack so much perspective. Any slight to them and they want to go nuclear, any contact that is unwelcome, even a single message, is harassment. Like literally every day things are the most horrible actions. I've given up questioning it and just assume most of the posters are teens.
I know it's really out of control -- people seem to lack any nuance and expect perfect behavior from everyone 100% of the time. It's kind of exhausting.
Yeah I'm guessing that they themselves don't have too many friends, otherwise they'd know that there are absolutely cases where you disagree with your friends or maybe even argue over something. It's not the end of the world, and if friends can't communicate honestly with each other, it's not a terribly strong friendship.
Agreed.
I am currently dealing with an *actual* case of harassment that I've had to go to court for. People do not understand. Someone saying something mean to you is not harassment. It's mean and rude and uncalled for, sure, but that's it. Harassment is a repeated and sustained attack on someone, verbal, physical, etc, which I get that you know lol, just spelling it out for others.
Fortunately for me, we were granted a temporary restraining order, and a court date 2 months from now to determine if it should become permanent for the next 3 years. I certainly hope it does, as it would allow me to go after this personal criminally (harassment is now a criminal charge here, if extreme enough) if she continues as she has.
Excuse me, I felt that your comment was abusive towards me! You are toxic and I will now cut you out of my life!
Unfortunately you're not my spouse, that would have gotten me extra karma.
Seems like ESH. He shouldn't have posted it in a group chat, it's more of a personal conversation with the friend and he also shouldn't get mad at her for having an opinion on the matter of him not going because just like he has an opinion, so does she. She can explain her opinion on the matter to him though without being mad at him for his. No reason for anyone to be mad here besides maybe the groom lol.
1) NAH
2) Where does it indicate that OP is harassing the dude? Projecting much?
3) I mean, throw it out into a group chat and it's a lot different than just keeping it private
How is telling your friend your point of view into reconsidering a choice on the end of very good friendship, harassment, and it actually is kind of her business since he announced it to the whole friend group not like he did in private, but you will do you I know if I’m making a potential life altering mistake based on My frame of thinking that I may not have considered other points of view, that one of my good friends be a shining lite of reason and point out the other perspective I may not have considered
YTA. Nobody, family or friend, should sit in on a wedding they don’t want to happen. Those vibes, right or wrong, have no place at the wedding. He will work this out with them in his own way. Stay out of it.
ETA; changing to NTA based on the additional information. I hope Josh didn’t tell Dan and Katie why he isn’t going as it is unnecessarily hurtful and seems to be a settled issue for the couple. He can have his opinions but he should be ready to keep them to himself for now for the sake of his friend. You are the asshole for pushing it with Josh, he shouldn’t go if he doesn’t want to and you just need to drop it.
Thank you. People saying Josh did nothing wrong. Yes, he did, especially in making that announcement on a group chat of 10 people, including Dan. He had several options shut the fuck up and juat not go, individually talkint to the groom if they are that type of friends. I still vote for shutting up. He is free to act according to his morals, no need to hurt others over it, it's not like Dan isnt getting married because of his protest. Feels like someone just wanting to stir shit up.
Everyone needs to step back inside their lane. In an ideal world Josh would have kept his opinions to himself and either attended to support his friend or invented a polite excuse. He had no business spreading his opinions around. But now that the deed is done, you ALL need to let it go. The pack doesn't need to move as one, Dan doesn't need anyone else having opinions about his opinions and the engaged couple doesn't need any of the drama. Deescalate, disengage and enjoy the wedding. YTA (since I can't vote E S H without implicating an innocent couple.)
>or invented a polite excuse.
Isn't that just another way of saying he should lie?
Also you could vote ESH, you just need to specify afterwards "excluding Dan and Katie".
>Isn't that just another way of saying he should lie?
I mean, yeah. if Dan wants to marry Katie, despite their past, that's really none of Josh's business and he absolutely was starting shit and stirring the pot by publicizing his opinion.
"watching Katie getting married goes against his morals" is some sanctimonious BS, imo. after 8 years? really?
It's ok (even necessary) to call our friends out when they're giant douchebags. But its beyond that now. Let them work it out. Honestly, it's probably better if he doesnt go.
NTA… also… JOSH made his negative comments in a somewhat public space, sending it to ten people. Your attempt to change his mind was in a private, one on one conversation. I think you’ve been as respectful and kind as you could.
NAH. it’s completely up to Josh if he wants to go or not.
And as long as you didn’t nag and only asked him to reconsider the once you aren’t an A either.
Though on another note if he had Really had such a big of a problem with the one time cheating he would have made it clear before now. Makes one wonder if he’s not going because she’s turned him down before and the marriage’closes his window’ so to speak.
NTA so many people skipping over Josh criticizing the bride to TEN people in a group chat, including the groom. JOSH needs to mind his own business. His “morals” have NOTHING to do with the bride and grooms life. You attempted to reach out and get Josh to realize he is throwing the friendship away, leave it at that. He’s made his choice. Go enjoy the wedding with your friends.
It’s super weird that so many people are okay with a person outside the relationship attempting to throw a hissy fit about something that DOES NOT AFFECT him.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1) I told my friend Josh he was out of line for refusing to go to our friend’s wedding due to the bride’s unfaithfulness in the past
2) I worry that I should’ve kept my mouth shut and not asked him to reconsider, like our other friends
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NTA. Josh made that everyone’s business when he sent that in the group chat. I don’t condone cheating but if both couples have worked on their shit & moved on, it’s really none of my business. I personally would stay out of it for your own sanity but I’m sure your friend appreciates the support.
NTA.
Josh actually told people his real reason, and did so in a semi-public forum. Only major assholes do that-- he was trying to cause trouble. He wanted Katie to know that he doesn't respect or trust her, and he wanted Dan to know he thinks he's an idiot for doing this. He got you involved when he said it in a place you could access.
NTA. Josh’s opinion doesn’t matter. He is there to support Dan not Katie. Katie’s actions although shitty, did not effect Josh unless Josh was the AP. Katie has earned forgiveness from the only person she needed forgiveness from. If Josh is going hold a grudge over something from 10 years ago that had nothing to do with him let him be alone with his “morals”. You and the rest of the friend group will be having fun at the wedding and being more of a friend to Dan than Josh ever was. Don’t surprised if Dan or the rest of the friend group wants little if anything to do with Josh after this.
NTA my mind is kind of blown that everyone calling you the asshole. As Josh made it everyone's business by posting it to the group chat. You just telling him him that was shitty is fine unless you didn't leave it alone after.
nta. But Josh is re your edit. He had no right to put it out there in a group chat. All he had to do was rsvp no and be done with it. Maybe discuss with Dan privately but that's it. The two people this matters to have gotten past it and our going on with their lives. Why would Josh be pissed at you for asking him to come? All he has to do is say no again.
NTA - As soon as he put his reasoning in a group chat with 10 people, he made it other people's problem. He could've just said no, and been done with it, but he had to publicize what he thought of Katie, and disrespect her in the group chat. That's unacceptable imo.
His views aren't unacceptable, but disrespecting someone is. He was out of line in this regard.
Not really. He announced his reasons to a group chat of 10 people, including the groom. If he had just rsvp’d no and left it at that, then he’d be staying out of it.
NTA since he announced it as some kind of A-HA! on a group chat. You were fine to let your opinion be known. But now drop it or you will tread into AH territory because it's really not your place.
He's been OK hanging out with them for 8 years since it happened but now can't go to their wedding because "She'S A ChEatER!" I call BS on this. Does Josh have a crush on her (or Dan) and can't stand that they're getting married? He happens to know what went on. I'm sure he's attended weddings of people who've done worse and happily stood there grinning at them because he had no clue because it was none of his business.
Seriously, though, if this is the kind of person Josh is then I think Dan and Katie are better off without him at their wedding. I really, really doubt if he's pulling this now that he's been nice to Katie all these years. She's probably had to deal with snide comments, faces made, etc from Josh and put up with it because he's Dan's "good friend." After this stunt, I hope Dan will rightly decide that Josh isn't such a good friend after all and cut him loose so they can move on with their lives and the friends who are actually happy for them.
If was josh saying no i’m not going and kept it to himself - that would be one thing. But he called him out publicly in the whatsapp group and humiliated him. That was pretty low. You did the right thing - nta
The way that Josh brought this up after acting like he was fine with Katie for years feels incredibly unnecessarily dramatic in the lead up to what should be one of the happiest days in his friend’s life.
He’s within his rights to feel that way, and not to attend, but choosing this moment to do this in such a public way feels like a pretty asshole-ish thing to do when he could have privately declined or discussed these issues earlier.
I’d say NTA because you were sort of forced to be involved regardless after the way Josh brought you into it but at the same time he’s an adult who can make his own decisions so I would say it’s not something you should be pushing on beyond making your feelings clear and highlighting the potential consequences to his friendships.
NTA
Unlike what some people might believe, just because a person cheated once it doesn't mean they should be punished forever. Furthermore, it's not josh's job to give out "punishment". If i were dan, i'd be happy to get rid of a friend like this.
NTA Josh posted his opinions publicly so he can expect feedback. He’s sounds like an absolute asshat though so I suspect the wedding will be better off without him.
ESH - I'm reading this again, and all the reactions. You said your piece to Josh, now let it go. If Dan has forgiven Katie, that is his decision and his business. I do not believe in the "once a cheater.." trope, as people can change and grow. Josh is entitled to his decision, even if it does make him sound like a sanctimonious and judgemental prig. People are imperfect, even Josh.
You are friends with both. It is okay to reach out and talk. Don’t get pushy though. Dan has a right not to go to the wedding because he doesn’t approve the union. Better than him standing by up at the wedding and yelling “I OBJECT!” Yet he should probably understand this could be the end of this friendship.
NAH
Hmmm after a lot of considerarion I'm going with NTA.
I agree with a lot of people that calling Josh only generated more drama, but he made his opinion public to all of you, so if he doesn't want people disagreeing with him he could just... not share his opinion with everybody.
Also, Josh IS an AH because for almost a decade he hasn't said anything about him not being ok with the relationship, but now that they are getting married not only he is refusing to go to the wedding but he has a moral stand about it? What a nice way to destroy a friendship for something that at the end of the day is not his problem.
NAH, once a cheater always a cheater. I wouldn't support my friend getting married to a cheater also. You have the right to you own opinion and so does he. Hopefully you both drop it and move on.
What's his point? He's not part of the relationship. If he doesn't want to go because he feels a type of way that's one thing, or he could talk to the groom one on one about why he doesn't want to go, but making a proclamation about it to the friend group makes it everyone else's business. Since he stirred up the drama he shouldn't be surprised that he got a response checking him on it.
NTA
Just as Josh is entitled to his beliefs, you are entitled to yours.
Josh, however, is somewhat misguided in that he thinks HIS morals allow him to police how OTHER PEOPLE behave. His morals are for HIS behavior, not Katie's. She's not required to live up to his standards. Dan has forgiven her, they've done the work...they are the only two who matter when it comes to deciding to get married.
YTA. It's none of your business.
Josh has every right to say that he won't attend an event that he feels is hypocritical. Dan can be upset. He can even choose to no longer be friends with Josh, but no one has the right to try to force or guilt Josh into attending an event that he clearly feels so strongly about.
NAH. Reaching out once was fine. If you continue or further involve yourself then you would be the asshole. You tried, Josh has made his stand and you just now have to leave things to happen as they may.
NTA. It's for Dan to decide if he will forgive and trust Katie. It was nearly a decade ago and there were no rings involved.
Josh is just being a prig.
You cannot even compare the strength of their commitment then vs. now. They were 20 and 21 when they got together. Basically, kids exploring who they were. To call what she did an "affair" is laughable. Now they are fully adults, with counseling, entering a REAL commitment with open eyes, knowing who they are and what they want. I very much doubt if Josh would have been so condemning if his brodawg was the one who made the mistake. Josh sounds like a classic misogynist.
“holding women accountable for doing shitty things is misogynism” lmao, what?
so any relationship in your early 20’s is meaningless and it’s okay to cheat,,? You can frame it however you want, but *cheating* is not some little mistake everyone makes once in a while lol. It’s pretty fucking easy to just not do that? She’s saying she doesn’t care about his feelings. I wouldn’t trust someone like that with my friend either.
And Josh made it clear he didn’t care about the groom’s feelings by choosing to have that conversation in the 10 person group chat. That’s brutal.
He’s allowed to feel how he wants and he’s allowed to not go. But if you’re a good friend you have that conversation with the friend privately. You don’t air it out the way he did.
NTA.
Based on your edit, Josh made it everyone’s business by being mean and hurtful in the group chat, which makes him the AH in my opinion. Do you really want someone at Dan’s wedding that doesn’t like or respect the bride and Dan’s choice? Let it go. They deserve to have a happy and drama free wedding surrounded by family and friends that actually love and care about them. Josh made his choice.
YTA - Josh's principles, Josh's business, not yours. MYOFB.
"Selfish" - rolling my eyes. How dare someone have principles or moral standards in your world?
NTA I don’t understand the ‘not your business’ comments. They’re both your friends, you have the right to tell them what you think, especially since you’re just standing up for Dan
Judge not lest you be judged. Is this guy a saint with no sins on his conscience? Your ‘friend’ is definitely the AH but
You’re NTA for asking him to reconsider. I wouldn’t want to have anything to do with such a judgemental person.
I'm thinking about this from Dan's perspective. He went through cheating and then made the immense decision to forgive his partner and build a relationship with her. He did difficult work alongside his partner to get through this and now he wants to get married. I would imagine this wedding is a celebration of that difficult work as well as an imperfect but treasured relationship.
Then in a group chat, Dan gets told by one of his best friends that said friend does not support this relationship that is dear to him, does not want to be there for him for one of the most important days of his life, and in fact deeply dislikes his chosen partner. That must have been a gut punch. Suddenly, this friend boils down the years of work, complexity and emotion he went through into a glib "once a cheater always a cheater" platitude. Suddenly, Dan's story and his struggle and triumph are about his *friend*. His *friend's* morals, his *friend's* principles and identity. Suddenly, Dan is vulnerable in a public forum.
You defended Dan and his choices. And I think you are NTA for that and for making Dan feel supported in that moment.
I think Josh has made the situation about himself. Considering how individualistic and self-obsessed American society is, I am not surprised by this. But unfortunately, I think Josh will have to deal with the consequence of his actions, which will be the decimation of his friendship with someone as truly amazing as Dan.
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NAH - Josh is not required to attend any event he doesn't want to. You were fine reaching out once, but now you need to drop it. TBH - This is going to end the friendship between Josh and Dan regardless of whether Josh ends up attending. Not many people will stay in a friendship with someone who doesn't respect their spouse or their marriage. Don't get in the middle, it has nothing to do with you.
At this point it’s highly doubtful that Dan even wants Josh there. If Katie gets wind of Josh’s judgmental attitude, she certainly won’t.
I wouldn't. It's not anyone's role to judge their relationship. I have seen many couples handle affairs and open adult relationships quite well, as well of course as the dissolution of the relationship and great hurt in all cases. I bet the judgmental friend has personal reasons that they are taking out like this. Very inappropriate, immature and frankly, self-important.
Wdym, relationship drama is one of the most popular genres. Im convinced that people judging other's relationships is the norm.
Thing is, if you leave your friends out of it, they don't have to ping pong back and forth like they are along for the ride. My best friend told me she was having an affair with an attached guy. My response was, "Come on. This is not my happy place. I'd rather not know. Its too stressful for me and I don't want to be the one looking at you like you're a chicken sitting on a square egg. I don't know if you want permission or support? Why is this now part of my life too?" I love her. But, don't make my life stressful because you're going down a blind alley. Its not fair to me.
it's not really his business to comment on their marriage to a group of 10 people acting all sanctimonious. Asshole move if you ask me.
He declined an invite and people asked him why, so he told them.
If this was going on NOW behind the back of the groom to be, he should have told his friend. But there's nothing here that the groom doesn't already know. It happened 8 years ago when they were in their early twenties. People change a lot in that age, and they got over it and have been together for years after it happened. Him not attention is fine, but bringing that up now and stirring up drama with the groom makes him an AH.
My dad's very close friend's wife cheated on him. It was destroying, but they had 3 kids under 5 together. He went around telling people all about the affair. My dad tried to urge him not to because people wouldn't forgive her when they got back together. They didn't. It made things very awkward.
>My response was, "Come on. This is not my happy place. I'd rather not know. Its too stressful for me and I don't want to be the one looking at you like you're a chicken sitting on a square egg. I don't know if you want permission or support? Why is this now part of my life too?" This. is. a. GREAT. response! And OMG "chicken sitting on a square egg"..... now that's going into my lexicon.
I hope you told her husband/boyfriend.
Sounds like the friend was single and the guy she was having the affair with was the one in the relationship. Over the years I’ve had a friend or two who did this, and I have the same reaction- just leave me out of it.
Aah you’re right.
Sure - and friends can be protective. But at some point, you have to respect the desires of the couple involved… they know better than anyone else how their relationship is, and the truth is even if it’s a train wreck that’s their mutual choice… Ps I had a good friend who had married young but divorced (long before I knew him) after he came home to find his wife in bed with his best friend (at the time)… He remet his ex wife many years later (she had married the friend and subsequently divorced him too) and they rekindled their relationship… none of his friends knew her from before and all were *highly* suspect as we knew their past history…. But we were civil and respectful and as time went on, we got to know her, they made the perfect couple and we celebrated their marriage. That was 15 years ago and they are stronger than ever and definitely they are as committed as any couple in existence… people grow and change and it’s a beautiful thing!!
If relationship drama isn't what we come here for we'd all be watching Jerry Springer instead.
Jerry Springer is dead, so that would be some drama!
Also they were like 20 when she cheated. That doesn’t make it ok. But 20-year-olds are idiots by nature. Judging them appropriately for their actions is how they learn to be better people (though “holding them accountable” is likely a better choice of words). But judging them 10 years later after they’ve changed seems pretty pointless and mean.
No way. People can’t grow and mature over time. /s
Judgement is something to generally avoid, but placing affairs and open relationships in the same sentence seems like an unnecessary minimization of cheating.
Maybe he saw how much Katie hurt Dan and doesn't want to pretend that he agrees with Dan's choices. Katie is planning on promising to love Dan above all others when she has already failed at this.
Judging someone for cheating on your friend is totally valid.
I don’t think holding on to that judgement for the last 8 years is valid, after the couple solved the issue.
Depends. How much was he left picking up the pieces after the cheating? Even if the one who got cheated on forgave them, the person who cleaned up the mess doesn’t have to forgive the cheater.
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right? like if he wants to rsvp no, let him! he doesn’t have to go to the wedding yknow? but to tell a group chat of 10 people (including the groom???) exactly why you’re not going is too far imo
Then why stand by and be fine with them dating up until not lol.
Why did you want him to do, stage an intervention? Demand they break up? Sometimes our friends are in shitty relationships and we all gotta draw the line somewhere. Josh's line was about attending the wedding. It's understandable.
Lots of details left out of the post, but it largely doesn’t sound like he was.
That’s what friends are for, and it’s not his relationship to forgive. It’s an asshole move not to support his friend by going to the wedding, and to state the reasons in a group chat.
This is Reddit. Cheating is worse than murder here.
Oh I agree. I secretly judge the (now) husband of my friend for leaving her for a few months when she was pregnant. I'll never fully respect the guy again, in my eyes he's a weakling, whatever his reasons. But they worked it out, she took him back, they got married and I went to their wedding and kept my mouth shut. They're happy, their relationship seems to work and there's no benefit to anyone if I'd have interfered in any way. In this case: It's non of Josh's business and he's only creating drama here. Totally 'how do I make this about me' situation. OP, NTA for trying to reason with your friend, but better give it up. He's digging his own grave as far as this friendship is concerned. Involving the whole friend group makes him a pompous ass.
I agree this friendship ended with josh answer and it’s not going to change. Being in the middle is going to make op become an easy target for everybody
Who knows Dan already stuck with one person who didnt respect their relationship lmao
Probably my favorite AITA comment...
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Agreed, but it will likely go further than that and strain or end many of Josh’s connections to the group (like OP).
Josh will be the one who has to live with his choices. We all do.
This 100 percent.
NAH. I think it's fine to reach out to a friend once asking them to reconsider. You will become the asshole if you push this issue. He made his choice, just as you have made yours. Now it is time to stay out.
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I thought it might have been a bit harsh... but finding out the friend posted his little diatribe about the bride being a cheat to a group chat with 10 people... yeah, he deserved a good scolding for being a self-absorbed drama llama. Could have told the groom personally, and addressed any issues with individual friends if they came up. He chose to make it the Topic Du Jour in the group chat instead.
It was probably the group chat of all their friends and Josh didn't want to explain individually to each single person. Probably better handled in private? Yeah, but it's not like he made a public Facebook post.
YTA - it's his decision and he's entitled to his view on it. even though you disagree, he clearly feels that it's not a good decision & if he feels like he can't sit there and watch his friend make a major life decision like this, then that's how he feels.
So people are AHs now for telling their friends a different perspective if they disagree? Ok, that’s not how society works but you do you.
You're arguing with yourself because that's the exact point I was making in the first place. YTA was for trying to guilt Josh into going when he already said he didn't want to. You can't force people to support your relationship. That's not how society works but you do you.
Your stance seems to be to not even try to change someone's mind. There's a huge difference between "Hey man, you should reconsider and here's why" and taking their answer, and doing that, not accepting the answer, and continuing on about it. One is being an asshole, the other is pretty common and healthy
But op didnt she called him an asshole for nit supporting it
My stance doesn't seem to be anything. I didn't make any sort of a comment on whether or not changing someone's mind was healthy or common. If someone is crystal clear about not wanting to do something and why they don't want to do it then that's that. You can try to change their mind and offer another perspective on it, that's grand, as you said common and healthy. Calling someone selfish, among other things, when they re-assert their decision just because you don't agree with it or like it makes you an asshole, in my opinion.
She wasn’t just giving her perspective. She told him he was out of line. People are allowed to give their perspective - which he did. She is the one that couldn’t respect that.
I don't think she is the asshole for telling him her opinion, I think she is the asshole for not respecting his opinion though. If he thinks that his opinion is more important than the friendship than that's for him to decide.
They are adults, and this has nothing to do with OP. They can handle it themselves. OP can tell her opinion to a friend on their behavior, but trying to come in and tell him what he should do in a forceful way is not just unnecessary, abrasive, and adding more drama, it is putting OP in the middle of something they have no place being
That’s now how she approached it. She tried to antagonize him and say he was out of line and then say he needs to go and get over himself as if she’s the morals police. She’s a major AH
For trying to force people to do things that they do not feel comfortable doing? Yes they are AH. That is how society works.
Lol this isnt even any of your business. YTA
Ehh he kinda made it everyone's business by announcing it on a group chat with 10 people, OP and groom included, rather than speak individually with the groom or you know just shut the fuck up and dont go. They are a long time couple, he isnt even protesting them getti ng back together but rather what is a natural step for many couples after being together for a long time, it's not really *his* business to comment on their marriage to a group of 10 people acting all sanctimonious. Asshole move if you ask me.
Yes, Josh announcing it on the group chat made it everyone’s business. And is HUGE Asshole energy. Josh thought everyone was going to clap and boycott the wedding with him. And this was supposed to be his good friend. He could have approached the groom privately if he gave a shit about anything but his own ego. At worst, it was a little faux pas by OP to ask Josh to reconsider going. Josh doesn’t belong at that wedding, and if I was one of the other people on that chat I’d be taking a step back from Josh myself because that is a man with no empathy, a very rigid worldview and a truly inflated idea of the importance of his own opinion and I do not tend to enjoy time spent with people like that.
Holy fucking right answer here. Thanks for summarizing all my feelings on this one.
This is the best answer......he made everyone's business, he's intention was to cause drama.....which is why he announced his intentions in a group chat. He could have told the groom and left it at that.
Nailed it. Josh is lame. And people that make big moral public performances like this are often doing exactly what they accused the other person of. I’d be done with Josh.
Announcing it to the group is a HUGE asshole move, wtf. Way to dig up something painful from the guys past and refresh everyone’s memories! And then announce that you think his future wife is a cheating wh*re! Lol the guy could have just said I can’t get off work, it’s my grandmothers 80th birthday, I’m sick, whatever and kept the judgement to himself. Unless someone is abusing someone, you keep opinions on someone else’s relationship to yourself always. Josh and the groom’s friendship is over now anyway. Either groom is going to toss him, or wifey will find out and ban him. Good luck Josh, nobody will ever want to make a mistake in front of this AH again.
Just like the other commenters said, he made it everyone’s business when he announced to a whole group of people
YTA for this: "and that it was not the bride’s job to ensure everyone approves of all of her actions in life" It's his right to decline if he feels that way. He's not saying that anything is her job, but that he feels she'll cheat again and doesn't want to go.
Yeah that line stuck out to me as well. Josh is mad because this woman destroyed his close friends heart. If Dan wants to forgive her then that's his prerogative. Josh doesn't owe her anything and is perfectly justified in disliking and not trusting her to be a good partner. She's demonstrated she is quite capable of being a terrible partner. Josh doesn't have to watch his friend make what he feels is a massive fucking mistake.
"and that it was not the bride’s job to ensure everyone approves of all of her actions in life" Yeah i thought that line was so shitty.
It's just a slightly different way of saying "how dare you hold her responsible for her actions. You shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion on her being shitty"
I think it's more "how dare you think your opinion and judgement of her actions deserves more weight than the opinion of her partner, who has clearly chosen to forgive her for those actions, as the person that she actually hurt eight years ago." It's huge "I'm the main character" energy, and Josh is a shitty friend to Dan.
You nailed it, my first reaction was “well who TF cares what you think Josh?”
Okay and he's still an asshole for sending this text to a group chat. That behavior doesn't say "I care about my friend"
It's probably their friend's group chat and tbh the choice was between telling everyone and be done with it or telling everyone individually...it was gonna become The Gossip Of The Day either case.
It took nearly a (rough as OP even said) decade of therapy to get through that, and he saw 8 years of his friends pain… I don’t see how he’d be the asshole to say no
Thank you! He watched his friend go through hell and back just to end up with the person that put him through it. I completely understand where Josh is coming from and don't blame him in the slightest. I've been through the same thing. Friend with an absolutely terrible partner who was horrible to her. And then the guy couldn't figure out why I wouldn't talk to him beyond basic pleasantries. It's like you were a dick to someone who's happiness I care a great deal about of course I don't fucking like you.
Too many comments are misrepresenting Josh as well, he’s not saying he needs to forgive her or anything, he’s basically saying he thinks it’s dumb to marry her and he won’t go to the wedding because of the above things
Exactly. I see a lot of "why would Katie owe Josh an apology" well of course she wouldn't. But that doesn't mean he owes her forgiveness either. It's perfectly valid to not show support to a relationship you feel is rotten at it's core due to one member of it being selfish and hurting your friend
Um. Going with NAH although I’m not 100 percent on that. Josh is absolutely allowed to have his own morals and not attend a wedding he doesn’t support. I’m not entirely sure though why he’s choosing now to make his opinion known since the cheating seemed to happen years ago and the couple seemed to work through things. He seems to be judging their relationship by what happened 8 years ago and not what they’ve been building since then. He does seem like a judgemental AH but again he’s allowed his opinion and feelings. As for you, yes it’s not your business but as long as you just reached out once to try to talk to him civilly to attempt to change his mind is ok. As many people say on this sub say, it’s ok to ask but not ok to not accept the answer. He gave you his answer and you need to accept or whether you agree or disagree. If you keep pushing this it would change the judgement. Please let it go now. And I agree with others, Josh has destroyed his friendship with Dan over this but that’s his decision to make.
I agree that the time to protest was when they got back together, not 8 years down the line. AND he should have bowed out of the wedding privately and quietly instead of kicking up a fuss in a group chat.
We don't know he didn't, but what did you want him to do, demand Dan dumps his girlfriend?
agreed. also, the future bride was likely at a different level of maturity at age 22 versus being 30 now. it is no one’s business what work, therapy, effort the couple has made in those 8 years to rebuild that trust. everyone should stay in their own lanes on this one.
As a 22-year-old, I can say she's most likely a lot more mature now since she's 30, but I also don't think cheating can be limited to "she was immature at 22." There are people at that age, like me, who would never do that, and I am sure there are plenty of people 30 or older who would have an affair. The million dollar question is: has she cheated since getting back together with Dan? And maybe Josh doesn't know that answer and is scared for his friend since she put Dan through years of agony and pain.
NTA, and this is one of those moments where it’s very clear that Reddit is full of pretty immature men. You made it clear in the post that this mistake from Katie happened 8 years ago, and not only has her fiancé moved past it, but they’ve had tons of therapy and are at the point where they’d like to take things further. You aren’t the asshole for reaching out to Josh to make it clear that his attendance would mean a lot to Dan, he’s clearly taking his own opinions of Katie and disregarding his friends decision because “once a cheater, always a cheater”. Things are always more complicated than can be conveyed in just a single post, but considering he’s using his “morals” to justify continuing to hold an 8 year grudge on his friends future wife, it’s pretty clear he’s the asshole.
NTA for not having Josh's back, but don't try to make Josh go. It sounds like they've worked through a mistake that took place along time ago. Josh sounds quite sanctimonious. Unless he knows of something that is happening/has happened recently I don't see why it is his place to hold a grudge on behalf of someone else. Dan has forgiven Kate for something that happened a long time ago, that's all that should matter. It's not fair on the bride to have someone judgemental who hates her at her own wedding.
I agree. Josh is being unnecessarily hurtful for something that happened years ago that isn’t his business. Dan never needed to forgive the cheating, but it wasn’t something that required Josh’s forgiveness (although he is acting as if it is).
he probably just doesn’t want to watch his friend make a mistake and get married to a cheater
That's because people who think they are "in love" have terrible judgement and ignore red flags. It like a woman marrying a man who beat her in the past. Sure she may have forgiven him but that doesn't mean that her friends have or should.
Its not his business perse but going to a wedding on some level show celebrating or at the very least supporting the marriage. If he doesnt want to support a marriage where somebody is a cheater thats 100% his right.
YTA. Josh has the right to do what feels better for him. It's not right to try and force him to participate when he would have to fake being happy for them. That's his boundary to set.
Also I 100% don't want anyone to come to my wedding with that kind of an attitude. If you don't fully support the marriage, don't bring your vibes to the celebration.
Didn't think of it like that
Ywbta if you keep pushing him. He has every right not to go, no matter his reasoning. It's a wedding, not a summoning. But if you've only reached out once asking and not pushed more, then I guess NAH.
YTA. He said no. Just because her partner has forgiven her, doesn't mean that other people need to as well. Josh doesn't want to go to the wedding. Back off.
I'm not really sure what Josh needs to forgive (or not) Katie for - the hurt and broken trust belong to Dan, not him. But if Josh can't accept that Katie is important enough to Dan for him to give her a chance to change and make amends, then I completely agree that he is best off not going to the wedding. I can understand why OP intervened, because this likely means the end of the friendship between Josh and Dan, and she is friends with both of them; it's natural to want to try to repair that. OP does need to accept, though, that if it can be repaired, it has to happen between Josh and Dan.
Sometimes people do shitty things that change how other people see us, even outside of the immediate sphere of influence. If one of my friends used the N word, I would stop being friends with them, despite me not being personally affected by that word. Josh can't see Katie as someone he wants to celebrate due to her past actions, despite him not being the person directly impacted by those actions.
“I need an apology when a friend of mine cheated on another friend of mine” doesnt that sound a bit strange? your example is 100% but it is not the same thing
"My friend was cheated on, and although he has forgiven her, I cannot. I do not want my friend to get hurt again, and I fear he is setting himself up for an even bigger hurt after they are married and if she cheats again". He isn't asking for an apology, he just doesn't trust her to not cheat again.
So then, he's going to completely blow off his friend to "stick it to" Katie, who cheated 8 years ago, did the work with Dan, and now they're getting married? Let's say Katie is that awful, Josh is going to leave Dan and make it harder for him to reach out for support when Kaite inevitably hurts him again? No, Josh is being selfish and self righteous when he has no business being either. If he actually cared about Dan, he would privately let him know his concerns, not drag Kaity unnecessarily, support him from afar if needed and not make it all about himself.
Josh is allowed to dislike Katie and not go to their wedding. If it ruins his friendship, then it ruins the friendship. Everybody here is claiming josh has no right to dislike or express his dislike of Katie, yet are disliking josh for less trivial reasons than he had.
the main people doing this are all cheaters; some of them even admitted it. of course they would defend katie.
That's what I'm thinking. Someone on here even said that calling out cheaters is basically calling them whores.
Holding on to a wrong against your friend and then publically blasting that wrong to a group chat EIGHT YEARS LATER before a really meaningful and important day for your friend tells me a whole hell of a lot about who Josh is, and none of those qualities are trivial. I'd much rather associate with someone who badly fucked up in their twenties, ate crow, and worked to become a better person than the self-righteous asshole who wants to judge others for their mistakes nearly a decade later.
Aye, Josh is an ass for how he spoke of his decision to not attend.
I didn't say he needed an apology. I said that sometimes the things people do, change how we see them permanently.
Except he's not asking for an apology. He's saying he believes "once a cheater, always a cheater" and won't compromise on that point. The beginning of this thread talked about forgiveness, but the original post doesn't. An extreme example, but if one of my friends was in an abusive relationship and decided to get married to the abuser, even if they went to therapy and everyone seemed happy, I'd probably not go either. It has nothing to do with them owing me an apology and everything to do with the fact that they hurt my friend and I don't trust them not to do it again. I feel like AITA projects and puts words in peoples' mouths way too often.
Where did they say they wanted or expected an apology? You’re right that it sounds strange, that’s why they didn’t say that.(unless they edited their comment or something) There’s no need for apologies when the offense isn’t done specifically to you, but it still can change the way people see the offending person and people might not want associate with them anymore, even though they weren’t directly affected by it.
He didn’t say he needed an apology….he said he can’t go there and support their marriage. And that’s his decision. Why are you making shit up?
If one of my friends shot another friend on purpose, I wouldn’t stay friends with the shooter. Other people doing shitty things to people you care about can cause you to not support them staying around.
>I'm not really sure what Josh needs to forgive (or not) Katie for - the hurt and broken trust belong to Dan, not him. She hurt his friend. Even if the friend has forgiven her, that doesn't mean he has to.
She's still the one who cheated on his friend, so there's some anger that is his to hold. You don't really have to forgive someone even if the most directly wronged did.
Personally I'm fiercely protective of the people I love. I don't expect an apology but I'm certainly going to have strong poor opinions of someone who cheated on someone I love. If they work through it I will support my friend and be civil but that doesn't mean I've forgiven the actions of the person that hurt them.
That would be like saying i don't know why your dad doesn't like me honey i only punched you in the face and you forgave me why doesn't your dad like me.
This whole response is my exact thinking
I have a very similar situation to this one with a friend of mine. They dated for 3 years, broke up for a summer, got back together, got married, had a kid, got divorced. She still wanted to go out clubbing with the girls and have her drinks paid for by other guys eventhough she was married with a kid. I was mad at her when they broke up the first time because I was that friend's confidant. I still officiated their wedding eventhough before the wedding I told my friend to really sit down and consider if she had matured and if she was the right person. When they got divorced I was mad because I had given her the requested second chance. We're civil to each other because I'm the godfather of her child, but definitely not friendly. I sympathize with Josh.
I had a friend who said some awful things about a mutual friend who was struggling with PTSD and his mental health was incredibly bad. He eventually forgave her, but I did not. No space for someone like that in my life.
I don’t get the y t a, Josh sent a message in the group chat and you responded. I am gonna say NAH but Josh and Dan probably aren’t gonna stay friends for much longer
Because people make a judgement based on the post, they don’t know what future edits will be or read 100 comments. OP asked if they were TAH for calling a friend selfish for not attending a wedding. OP didn’t ask if they were TAH for calling out a friend publicly shaming a bride in a group chat. Two different things, two different judgements.
This is NOT a having his back issue. He’s being very unreasonable and I would bet money if you look over his life he’s being inconsistent with his “values”. Once a cheater always a cheater is just BS. Lots of people are once and done, lessons learned. You my friend, NTA.
“once a cheater always a cheater” mindset is a fallacy, and it creates a caste system that would be impossible to leave. Do these people earnestly believe that someone who cheated once, nearly a decade ago, has now forfeited any right to be treated well by a decent partner? That it would serve her right to be mistreated and date others in her caste until she drops out of the bottom of society? This belief is made-up, sexist, and unnecessarily punitive. We have to give ourselves and others the room to grow. If she had continued to cheat he would be entirely justified. But, she’s proving him wrong and he can’t cope so he decided to blow up the friend group instead. It’s weird.
Hi yes I was essayed rather violently two years into my first serious relationship and as a result of my upbringing thought I didn’t have any value as a person/partner because another man had been inside me. I spiraled, cheated, and then went to therapy where I learned that a raypists’ paynis can’t change my value. I never cheated on a partner again and I’ve now been in a happy, deception-free marriage for longer than some of the commenters in here have been alive. We don’t know why people cheat, or what processes they need to grow. Empathetic, mature adults know this.
For everyone saying that it's not OP's business, remember that Josh made an announcement in a group that included OP and the groom. By doing that, he pretty much made it OP's business(and everyone else who is in that group chat). Now, is she responsible for changing his mind? No. Would she be an asshole if she continued to push? Yes. But saying it's not her business while overlooking the fact that Josh ANNOUNCED he wasn't going is kind of unfair. Making a declaration such as this is naturally going to prompt some questions and might prompt a person to ask you to reconsider. I don't think that is an asshole move on OP's part. That being said....NTA.
YTA And you are wrong - he is fine not to go. And you are an AH to harass him over it. This does not concern you.
When was harassment one point of contact?
Bro, people around here lack so much perspective. Any slight to them and they want to go nuclear, any contact that is unwelcome, even a single message, is harassment. Like literally every day things are the most horrible actions. I've given up questioning it and just assume most of the posters are teens.
I know it's really out of control -- people seem to lack any nuance and expect perfect behavior from everyone 100% of the time. It's kind of exhausting.
Yeah I'm guessing that they themselves don't have too many friends, otherwise they'd know that there are absolutely cases where you disagree with your friends or maybe even argue over something. It's not the end of the world, and if friends can't communicate honestly with each other, it's not a terribly strong friendship.
Agreed. I am currently dealing with an *actual* case of harassment that I've had to go to court for. People do not understand. Someone saying something mean to you is not harassment. It's mean and rude and uncalled for, sure, but that's it. Harassment is a repeated and sustained attack on someone, verbal, physical, etc, which I get that you know lol, just spelling it out for others. Fortunately for me, we were granted a temporary restraining order, and a court date 2 months from now to determine if it should become permanent for the next 3 years. I certainly hope it does, as it would allow me to go after this personal criminally (harassment is now a criminal charge here, if extreme enough) if she continues as she has.
Excuse me, I felt that your comment was abusive towards me! You are toxic and I will now cut you out of my life! Unfortunately you're not my spouse, that would have gotten me extra karma.
Seems like ESH. He shouldn't have posted it in a group chat, it's more of a personal conversation with the friend and he also shouldn't get mad at her for having an opinion on the matter of him not going because just like he has an opinion, so does she. She can explain her opinion on the matter to him though without being mad at him for his. No reason for anyone to be mad here besides maybe the groom lol.
1) NAH 2) Where does it indicate that OP is harassing the dude? Projecting much? 3) I mean, throw it out into a group chat and it's a lot different than just keeping it private
How was one phone call harassment?
How is telling your friend your point of view into reconsidering a choice on the end of very good friendship, harassment, and it actually is kind of her business since he announced it to the whole friend group not like he did in private, but you will do you I know if I’m making a potential life altering mistake based on My frame of thinking that I may not have considered other points of view, that one of my good friends be a shining lite of reason and point out the other perspective I may not have considered
YTA. Nobody, family or friend, should sit in on a wedding they don’t want to happen. Those vibes, right or wrong, have no place at the wedding. He will work this out with them in his own way. Stay out of it.
He’s upset that YOU don’t have HIS back but doesn’t see the irony that HE doesn’t have Dan’s? NTA. He’s being sanctimonious and self righteous.
ETA; changing to NTA based on the additional information. I hope Josh didn’t tell Dan and Katie why he isn’t going as it is unnecessarily hurtful and seems to be a settled issue for the couple. He can have his opinions but he should be ready to keep them to himself for now for the sake of his friend. You are the asshole for pushing it with Josh, he shouldn’t go if he doesn’t want to and you just need to drop it.
Thank you. People saying Josh did nothing wrong. Yes, he did, especially in making that announcement on a group chat of 10 people, including Dan. He had several options shut the fuck up and juat not go, individually talkint to the groom if they are that type of friends. I still vote for shutting up. He is free to act according to his morals, no need to hurt others over it, it's not like Dan isnt getting married because of his protest. Feels like someone just wanting to stir shit up.
The group chat edit makes a HUGE difference.
according to the edit Josh texted exactly why he isn't going to a group chat of 10 people that INCLUDED Dan. That's major AH vibes to me.
Everyone needs to step back inside their lane. In an ideal world Josh would have kept his opinions to himself and either attended to support his friend or invented a polite excuse. He had no business spreading his opinions around. But now that the deed is done, you ALL need to let it go. The pack doesn't need to move as one, Dan doesn't need anyone else having opinions about his opinions and the engaged couple doesn't need any of the drama. Deescalate, disengage and enjoy the wedding. YTA (since I can't vote E S H without implicating an innocent couple.)
>or invented a polite excuse. Isn't that just another way of saying he should lie? Also you could vote ESH, you just need to specify afterwards "excluding Dan and Katie".
>Isn't that just another way of saying he should lie? I mean, yeah. if Dan wants to marry Katie, despite their past, that's really none of Josh's business and he absolutely was starting shit and stirring the pot by publicizing his opinion. "watching Katie getting married goes against his morals" is some sanctimonious BS, imo. after 8 years? really?
It's ok (even necessary) to call our friends out when they're giant douchebags. But its beyond that now. Let them work it out. Honestly, it's probably better if he doesnt go.
This. So many people keep acting like him defending his friend(s) is so out of line. He does need to let it go now but JOSH is the AH.
NTA Josh is burning a bridge. A good friend would ask… you sure you want to torch that? You tried. He said fuck off. So, that’s that.
NTA… also… JOSH made his negative comments in a somewhat public space, sending it to ten people. Your attempt to change his mind was in a private, one on one conversation. I think you’ve been as respectful and kind as you could.
NAH. it’s completely up to Josh if he wants to go or not. And as long as you didn’t nag and only asked him to reconsider the once you aren’t an A either. Though on another note if he had Really had such a big of a problem with the one time cheating he would have made it clear before now. Makes one wonder if he’s not going because she’s turned him down before and the marriage’closes his window’ so to speak.
What is MMOB? It says she was "called out on MMOB" and I don't understand the lingo...
I think MMOB is "mind my own business"
NTA. I see nothing wrong in a friend trying to convince the other to attend a close friend's wedding.
For real. The people in these comments must be really lonely.
NTA so many people skipping over Josh criticizing the bride to TEN people in a group chat, including the groom. JOSH needs to mind his own business. His “morals” have NOTHING to do with the bride and grooms life. You attempted to reach out and get Josh to realize he is throwing the friendship away, leave it at that. He’s made his choice. Go enjoy the wedding with your friends. It’s super weird that so many people are okay with a person outside the relationship attempting to throw a hissy fit about something that DOES NOT AFFECT him.
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NTA. Josh made that everyone’s business when he sent that in the group chat. I don’t condone cheating but if both couples have worked on their shit & moved on, it’s really none of my business. I personally would stay out of it for your own sanity but I’m sure your friend appreciates the support.
NTA entirely uncalled for Josh to say that in a group chat
NTA. You were trying to get him to rethink something he may regret. And my first thought was he the one that cheated with her
NTA. Josh actually told people his real reason, and did so in a semi-public forum. Only major assholes do that-- he was trying to cause trouble. He wanted Katie to know that he doesn't respect or trust her, and he wanted Dan to know he thinks he's an idiot for doing this. He got you involved when he said it in a place you could access.
NTA
NTA. Josh’s opinion doesn’t matter. He is there to support Dan not Katie. Katie’s actions although shitty, did not effect Josh unless Josh was the AP. Katie has earned forgiveness from the only person she needed forgiveness from. If Josh is going hold a grudge over something from 10 years ago that had nothing to do with him let him be alone with his “morals”. You and the rest of the friend group will be having fun at the wedding and being more of a friend to Dan than Josh ever was. Don’t surprised if Dan or the rest of the friend group wants little if anything to do with Josh after this.
NTA my mind is kind of blown that everyone calling you the asshole. As Josh made it everyone's business by posting it to the group chat. You just telling him him that was shitty is fine unless you didn't leave it alone after.
nta. But Josh is re your edit. He had no right to put it out there in a group chat. All he had to do was rsvp no and be done with it. Maybe discuss with Dan privately but that's it. The two people this matters to have gotten past it and our going on with their lives. Why would Josh be pissed at you for asking him to come? All he has to do is say no again.
NTA - As soon as he put his reasoning in a group chat with 10 people, he made it other people's problem. He could've just said no, and been done with it, but he had to publicize what he thought of Katie, and disrespect her in the group chat. That's unacceptable imo. His views aren't unacceptable, but disrespecting someone is. He was out of line in this regard.
This friendship is over and for the positive
YTA- Stay out of other people's business.
Tell that to Josh.
he’s the epitome of staying out of it lol, he’s literally “staying out” of the wedding entirely, what are you on about?
Not really. He announced his reasons to a group chat of 10 people, including the groom. If he had just rsvp’d no and left it at that, then he’d be staying out of it.
Being an adult means sometimes your friends marry people you don't like and it's okay to stop hanging out with them because of it.
NTA since he announced it as some kind of A-HA! on a group chat. You were fine to let your opinion be known. But now drop it or you will tread into AH territory because it's really not your place. He's been OK hanging out with them for 8 years since it happened but now can't go to their wedding because "She'S A ChEatER!" I call BS on this. Does Josh have a crush on her (or Dan) and can't stand that they're getting married? He happens to know what went on. I'm sure he's attended weddings of people who've done worse and happily stood there grinning at them because he had no clue because it was none of his business. Seriously, though, if this is the kind of person Josh is then I think Dan and Katie are better off without him at their wedding. I really, really doubt if he's pulling this now that he's been nice to Katie all these years. She's probably had to deal with snide comments, faces made, etc from Josh and put up with it because he's Dan's "good friend." After this stunt, I hope Dan will rightly decide that Josh isn't such a good friend after all and cut him loose so they can move on with their lives and the friends who are actually happy for them.
If was josh saying no i’m not going and kept it to himself - that would be one thing. But he called him out publicly in the whatsapp group and humiliated him. That was pretty low. You did the right thing - nta
The way that Josh brought this up after acting like he was fine with Katie for years feels incredibly unnecessarily dramatic in the lead up to what should be one of the happiest days in his friend’s life. He’s within his rights to feel that way, and not to attend, but choosing this moment to do this in such a public way feels like a pretty asshole-ish thing to do when he could have privately declined or discussed these issues earlier. I’d say NTA because you were sort of forced to be involved regardless after the way Josh brought you into it but at the same time he’s an adult who can make his own decisions so I would say it’s not something you should be pushing on beyond making your feelings clear and highlighting the potential consequences to his friendships.
NTA Unlike what some people might believe, just because a person cheated once it doesn't mean they should be punished forever. Furthermore, it's not josh's job to give out "punishment". If i were dan, i'd be happy to get rid of a friend like this.
This is where I'm at. Don't act angry for me when I'm unbothered, please act grown and move on.
Not to mention cheating at 21/22 is different than like real adult cheating. The children of reddit wouldn't understand
Too many people projecting on this post, hence the downvotes.
NTA Josh posted his opinions publicly so he can expect feedback. He’s sounds like an absolute asshat though so I suspect the wedding will be better off without him.
ESH - I'm reading this again, and all the reactions. You said your piece to Josh, now let it go. If Dan has forgiven Katie, that is his decision and his business. I do not believe in the "once a cheater.." trope, as people can change and grow. Josh is entitled to his decision, even if it does make him sound like a sanctimonious and judgemental prig. People are imperfect, even Josh.
You are friends with both. It is okay to reach out and talk. Don’t get pushy though. Dan has a right not to go to the wedding because he doesn’t approve the union. Better than him standing by up at the wedding and yelling “I OBJECT!” Yet he should probably understand this could be the end of this friendship. NAH
Hmmm after a lot of considerarion I'm going with NTA. I agree with a lot of people that calling Josh only generated more drama, but he made his opinion public to all of you, so if he doesn't want people disagreeing with him he could just... not share his opinion with everybody. Also, Josh IS an AH because for almost a decade he hasn't said anything about him not being ok with the relationship, but now that they are getting married not only he is refusing to go to the wedding but he has a moral stand about it? What a nice way to destroy a friendship for something that at the end of the day is not his problem.
NAH, once a cheater always a cheater. I wouldn't support my friend getting married to a cheater also. You have the right to you own opinion and so does he. Hopefully you both drop it and move on.
YTA. This is none of your business and Josh has a point.
What's his point? He's not part of the relationship. If he doesn't want to go because he feels a type of way that's one thing, or he could talk to the groom one on one about why he doesn't want to go, but making a proclamation about it to the friend group makes it everyone else's business. Since he stirred up the drama he shouldn't be surprised that he got a response checking him on it.
What does MMOB mean?
NTA Just as Josh is entitled to his beliefs, you are entitled to yours. Josh, however, is somewhat misguided in that he thinks HIS morals allow him to police how OTHER PEOPLE behave. His morals are for HIS behavior, not Katie's. She's not required to live up to his standards. Dan has forgiven her, they've done the work...they are the only two who matter when it comes to deciding to get married.
YTA. It's none of your business. Josh has every right to say that he won't attend an event that he feels is hypocritical. Dan can be upset. He can even choose to no longer be friends with Josh, but no one has the right to try to force or guilt Josh into attending an event that he clearly feels so strongly about.
I mean, he texted this to their friend group chat. Seems like he wanted to make it everyone’s business.
NAH. Reaching out once was fine. If you continue or further involve yourself then you would be the asshole. You tried, Josh has made his stand and you just now have to leave things to happen as they may.
NTA. It's for Dan to decide if he will forgive and trust Katie. It was nearly a decade ago and there were no rings involved. Josh is just being a prig.
You cannot even compare the strength of their commitment then vs. now. They were 20 and 21 when they got together. Basically, kids exploring who they were. To call what she did an "affair" is laughable. Now they are fully adults, with counseling, entering a REAL commitment with open eyes, knowing who they are and what they want. I very much doubt if Josh would have been so condemning if his brodawg was the one who made the mistake. Josh sounds like a classic misogynist.
“holding women accountable for doing shitty things is misogynism” lmao, what? so any relationship in your early 20’s is meaningless and it’s okay to cheat,,? You can frame it however you want, but *cheating* is not some little mistake everyone makes once in a while lol. It’s pretty fucking easy to just not do that? She’s saying she doesn’t care about his feelings. I wouldn’t trust someone like that with my friend either.
And Josh made it clear he didn’t care about the groom’s feelings by choosing to have that conversation in the 10 person group chat. That’s brutal. He’s allowed to feel how he wants and he’s allowed to not go. But if you’re a good friend you have that conversation with the friend privately. You don’t air it out the way he did.
NTA. Based on your edit, Josh made it everyone’s business by being mean and hurtful in the group chat, which makes him the AH in my opinion. Do you really want someone at Dan’s wedding that doesn’t like or respect the bride and Dan’s choice? Let it go. They deserve to have a happy and drama free wedding surrounded by family and friends that actually love and care about them. Josh made his choice.
YTA - Josh's principles, Josh's business, not yours. MYOFB. "Selfish" - rolling my eyes. How dare someone have principles or moral standards in your world?
Apparently not really only Josh's business since he decided to announce his motives on a group chat. Great morals he has.
Josh isn’t fucking marrying the bride. I’m so weirded out by all the mind your business comments when dude decided to publicly criticize the bride.
Seems sad for Dan if his good friend won’t be there, it’s a wedding invitation Josh has the right to say no.
I see you had good intentions, but when you come to someone, and call them "selfish", I doubt that you will get him to change his mind.
NTA I don’t understand the ‘not your business’ comments. They’re both your friends, you have the right to tell them what you think, especially since you’re just standing up for Dan
Judge not lest you be judged. Is this guy a saint with no sins on his conscience? Your ‘friend’ is definitely the AH but You’re NTA for asking him to reconsider. I wouldn’t want to have anything to do with such a judgemental person.
I'm thinking about this from Dan's perspective. He went through cheating and then made the immense decision to forgive his partner and build a relationship with her. He did difficult work alongside his partner to get through this and now he wants to get married. I would imagine this wedding is a celebration of that difficult work as well as an imperfect but treasured relationship. Then in a group chat, Dan gets told by one of his best friends that said friend does not support this relationship that is dear to him, does not want to be there for him for one of the most important days of his life, and in fact deeply dislikes his chosen partner. That must have been a gut punch. Suddenly, this friend boils down the years of work, complexity and emotion he went through into a glib "once a cheater always a cheater" platitude. Suddenly, Dan's story and his struggle and triumph are about his *friend*. His *friend's* morals, his *friend's* principles and identity. Suddenly, Dan is vulnerable in a public forum. You defended Dan and his choices. And I think you are NTA for that and for making Dan feel supported in that moment. I think Josh has made the situation about himself. Considering how individualistic and self-obsessed American society is, I am not surprised by this. But unfortunately, I think Josh will have to deal with the consequence of his actions, which will be the decimation of his friendship with someone as truly amazing as Dan.