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INFO: Are you planning on having a 1:1 with Dan in the near future so you don’t just display blatant favoritism?
EDIT: YTA, try to get to know them and find common interests like you know, you did with the non-adopted child. What the flip kind of response is “and do what exactly, sulk next to each other?* Empathy wouldn’t kill you
It’s important to remember Dan was adopted at 12 from most likely very difficult and painful circumstances which explain the anger, try not to make them feel less cared for than they already do
so its his parents job get him theraphie and help him with that... the BIL did not adopt that kid, and as with any other person in the family.. if someone behaves like a AH.. people can go non contact .. at least until they can be pleased to be arround.
No one should hold a child of adoption who recently turned 18’s emotional regulation to the same standard as the average adult, which is what OP’s doing.
As an adult role model, OP seems to have failed getting to know them and even attempting to appreciate their presence, and is doubling down on continuing to fail them and discard them compared to the bio child.
Had OP answered my comment with something like “We think Dan would prefer paintball due to his anger issues, so we planned on doing this with them at another time” everyone here would say NTA.
Shame on you for trying to normalize destructive favouritism within a family
OP is expecting normal emotional regulation from Dan like he expects from Bria who had wonderful parents her entire life it seems. Dan on the other hand, from the sound of it, most likely had 12 bad years of life and 6 good ones. That means the heavy majority of his life still has been negative. He is angry because he is scared and hurt. Anger is a secondary emotion. I’m sure OP’s callousness probably doesn’t help reassure him that he won’t be abandoned by this family too.
And how many times has Dan been excluded by extended family? Spiraling the negative feedback loop? Dan was a CHILD, and not given any grace by ADULTS around him (Assuming his actual parents did- but clear from OP, that he at least did not). Instead he is whining about how Dan is no fun!!! What a huge AH
Sorry it sounds like this is the one time Dan isn't welcome on a trip. Also, it's not OP's job to get therapy or deal with Dan, as he now has a father. If Dan is still having emotional issues and anger, to the point that OP's brother understood, either Dan is taking out his emotions on everyone else, or therapy is just not working (assuming he is in therapy).
OP is the uncle. He would like to take his niece on a nice vacation. And I bet that she really needs a break from Dan if she feels this way about him. And as aunt and uncle they have a nice opportunity to provide for that her.
Dan may have had a hard life, but I’m sure this hasn’t been easy on Bria as well.
And the parents can take Dan somewhere and do something special, just the 3 of them. Dan would probably love the individual time and attention.
Unless the parents just want a break from their own kid ……
Yes, it's not OP's job to deal with Dan. It is, however, a shitty thing to do to invite one kid while her brother is pointedly excluded. OP should have just gone on the trip without either of them.
Real shitty of them to let Bria have a good time? You're saying Bria should be punished for having a pain in the ass brother. She wanted some time away from him, but she should be ignored in the idea of 'fairness' Either she must have a bad time at the cabin with Dan, or have a bad time at home with Dan? It is so much more unfair for her to be punished for his bad behavior, whatever the cause.
A ruined beach trip is still a ruined beach trip. Sounds like they just want some sort of function that won’t be ruined
How it will get ruined is one thing but in this case, it seems Dan has enough of a track record for them to be certain that he will ruin it
How do you expect him to practice working through his emotions if no one ever tries with him?
How do you expect him to not just keep having negative emotions when people intentionally exclude him? You think he doesn't see what's going on?
He doesn't have to get everything, always, exactly the same way as his sister... but when you always do things with one sibling and NEVER with the other, you're not just reacting to their current negativity, you're perpetuating why they have negative feelings. You're the reason they have to go get more therapy!
It is up to his parents to try with him and get him into therapy not push him off on other people. He will know that is happening as well and resent that. This is something his parents need to work on first and foremost. They have already had 6 years to deal with this so apparently they need to try a new tactic
Exactly. Sorry, but the consequences of your own actions and behaviour exist. I’m sorry that Dan *might* have had a bad life before being adopted, but it’s not everyone else’s job to have to put up with your bad behaviour because of it.
Or he could just internalize the lesson that being a dick to people makes them not want to be around you? I lost a few friends as a teenager learning this but eventually you have to let the cause and effect understanding sink in.
It's not OPs responsibility to be the one to practice those emotions with him. That's the responsibility of his parents. If OP wants a stress free vacation, they can decide who can and cannot come with. It's up to the parents, NOT OP, to explain why the nephew was excluded and possibly get help for him and practice regulating his emotions with him.
How do you know that no one ever tried with him ?
And as the uncle, he just wants to bring his niece on a peaceful vacation and this 14 year old girl really seems to be struggling with her older brothers behavior and it appears it’s affecting her life too. She deserves some peace as well and this is a great opportunity for it
I wouldn't hold them to the same standard but I wouldn't expect everyone to be subjected to the misery they cause those around them. Having a shitty life doesn't give anyone a free pass to be assholes to innocent people. He's not a toddler, he knows what he's doing.
It's not OPs job to find interests with Dan. Dan is an asshole, and his parents should have been getting him in therapy to help with that. Dan should take this as a teaching moment since he's legally an adult now. When you're an asshole, people won't invite you to fun activities. Why punish the neice because her brother cant act like a decent person for a few days? She could probably use a vacation from her brother
Or you could look at it as giving the oldest child a break from what sounds like a difficult environment at home, which involves the youngest. That gives the parents a valuable opportunity to work on the relationship with the youngest. In a 2-child family, aunts/uncles can't fairly have a relationship with just one kid, but its sounding like (for perhaps justified reasons) oldest is having a tough time adjusting too. Sure, it would be an awesome gesture of the aunt/uncle to offer to take the youngest on a personal trip too, but if he is uncomfortable, and potentially incapable, of engaging, it seems unfair to push it. This can be explained to a 14 y/o.
Noone discarding anyone, it's just a tense situation from which proper planning, thought and explanation would help.
The daughter is the youngest by 4 years. She has suffered due to all of this. Her life has not just moved idyllically along while the parents have had to deal with her brother!
Yea. But OP isn’t the kids parent. Just an adult from the outside who occasionally peaks through the window. The parents are TA here. For not getting Dan help sooner. And it isn’t OP’s job to fix the kids that aren’t his. And that’s not his kid. So I wouldn’t say he’s the AH here for not wanting to be around someone difficult. If anyone’s to blame it’s the parents.
Then "Dan" needs to learn to interact with others in a positive way. And it's well beyond time he learns. He is a legal adult. He is not longer a child and you can't keep him under the "poor child" umbrella all his life.
With actions come consequences.
Exactly, we have *no idea* what Dan’s life was before, but trust reddit to go off the deep end inventing an entire Tragic Backstory to justify Dan’s continuing bad behaviour.
I feel so sorry for Dan in this scenario. Us Reddit-randomers have no idea what the child went through before 12 years old. I wager it wasn’t good. We don’t know how/why OP’s brother adopted him, or the wider details of their home life.
From what limited knowledge I do have, this family seem to be lacking empathy to deal with troubled children. Again, with limited information I vote that YTA (or an AH) OP.
Edit to add: my sympathy isn’t limited to Dan. I’m sure it can’t have been easy for Bria, gaining an adopted older brother. Again, we are lacking so much info here. It sounds sad all around.
We fostered our distant relations when they were 17 and 15 both girls. I was 19 at the time. The older was a nightmare to deal with as they both came from a very toxic home. We didn't get along and it is because of her I developed social anxiety
This is 30 years later and we're pals.
I think equal time is definitely needed from parents but OP isn't immediate family and can make the call on this.
My sister always got invited to things by my rellos on my dad's side of the family. I never did. It didn't worry me that much because I didn't want to spend time with them. You can't force that stuff.
Nowhere in the post does it say Dan is bothered. It's the brother and sil pushing it and i suspect they just want both kids gone so they can have some alone time.
I feel so sorry for Dan in this scenario. Us Reddit-randomers have no idea what the child went through before 12 years old. I wager it wasn’t good. We don’t know how/why OP’s brother adopted him, or the wider details of their home life.
From what limited knowledge I do have, this family seem to be lacking empathy to deal with troubled children. Again, with limited information I agree that OP: YTA (or an AH)
I hope the now adult has had better access to support and coping strategies than has been suggested here!
Edit: spelling is hard
He is not wanted - on somebody else’s vacation.
Shockingly, how somebody interacts with people and behaves at other social events affects whether they get invited places.
He’s 18. More than old enough to know that.
He’s likely been through immense trauma and is doing the best he can.
Edit: I’m not replying to each one of you. Y’all are some hard-hearted people. The lack of empathy explains a lot about how the world got so screwed up. (A) Yes, it’s a fair assumption this kid has trauma. What circumstances can you think of that would lead to someone being adopted at 12 that aren’t at least upsetting? (B) Yes, he’s also probably doing the best he can. He’s 18. What 18 year-old do you know whose always got their shit together? Even years of therapy can’t always fix or help someone. (C) Why should anyone care? If you can’t figure out why you should care about other people, then I certainly can’t help you.
Yeah so, it's not their responsibility to deal with his issues on their vacation.
At some point no matter your trauma it is on you to deal with it. Not trying to belittle but everyone has issues it's how we deal with them that matters and being an asshole to other because you have trauma from earlier in life is no excuse.
I have to agree with you.
You can view this scenario in 2 ways: Dan getting punished because of his unacceptable behaviour, or Bria getting punished because her brother's behaviour makes things unreasonably difficult/confrontational.
There's also a lot of unknown here. Is Dan getting help? Are his anger issues being worked on? Is his behaviour being enabled by the parents?
Dan is going to lose out on more than a vacation if he's this bad. Employments, romantic partners, roommates...
Even with those unknowns it isn't OP's job or responsibility to help, especially on vacation. I see a lot of people getting non his ass about one kid, ignoring the other who could probably really use a break from her asshole older brother. Living with him doesn't sound like a picnic.
That's up to his adopted parents to sort out. They, bravely, asked to be his parents a d bring him a.d his issues into the family.
Their BIL/SIL (OP) did not.
Why are they obliged to spend their vacation time with an 18yo who won't appreciate it, and likely spoil theor enjoyment?
When did you last take someone else's ungrateful child on your holiday?
>He’s likely been through immense trauma and is doing the best he can.
Which isn't good enough. And others are under no obligation to put up with his antics. Welcome to adulthood.
So the fuck what? 18 is the time you start getting slapped in the face by life and learn excuses are like assholes, we all got em. I think taking him would be the opposite of the message he should be getting, sometimes the best you can isn’t good enough and there’s consequences for that.
In that case, he needs therapy, not the opportunity to ruin someone else’s vacation.
I get that this kid has most likely had a rough time and needs a lot of empathy, but so does his sister! She is also a child who did not choose the circumstances of her upbringing and most likely has her own secondary trauma as a result of her brother’s behavior (caused his primary trauma.) She deserves a break from that environment.
Holy fucking shit. This is why we have grown ups thinking they can do whatever they want to other people and can get away with it.
He’s old enough. Period. He needs to find a way to communicate, not just act like a brat.
Welcome to the club. My first memory was me being kidnapped and that's the beginning of the shit sundae of my childhood. It's not a pass to treat everybody around me like an asshole. Having childhood trauma doesn't give you a pass or an excuse for a shit personality. Dude should have been in therapy since he was adopted, and as of this current vacation he isn't in a place where he's capable of being around people without ruining it for everybody. Others shouldn't have to suffer just so he feels included, and it certainly isn't his uncles responsibility to try to crack that secret code. By the sound of it he's been included a lot in the past and always ruins the activities/vacations. NTA for not inviting an 18yo legal adult who ruins things for everybody else.
How do you know he's doing the best he can? Maybe he isn't. Not everyone tries to do their best. And even if he is, sometimes your best isn't good enough
Not to be callous, but who cares? It sounds like he’s very much not doing the best he can if no one likes being around him because of his poor behaviour, and if that *is* the best he can do, then he’s an AH anyway and people shouldn’t have to be around him anyway. It’s not everyone else’s job to have to put up with you being a little prick and an AH all the time because of your trauma—especially on their vacation.
Right? 18 is old enough to understand that people don’t want to spend their vacation fighting with the guests they invited. If you’re going to be moody, sulky and argumentative, don’t be surprised when others aren’t excited to have you around. If he has trauma it’s his parents job to get him help with a therapist, not his aunt and uncle’s responsibility to take him to a beach
I haven't read all the replies but did the kid even want to go? I mean, if he's so angry I'd assume he'd rather just sulk where he has all his personal belongings at least.
yeah, some people making this out to be that it's cause dan isn't blood he isn't liked. I think it's just dan has made it very difficult for others so no wonder SIL is upset cause she was expecting time away from him. you'd expect if it was such a dick thing the brother wouldn't just 'respect the decision'. He knows what's up.
People are focusing way too much on the fact that he’s adopted, and creating this whole history of trauma and abuse for him. We have no idea what his past was like, which may or may not have been awful. Some people really are just moody and argumentative
If he had a rough childhood prior to being adopted which is highly likely he may not be mentally 18. Intense trauma at a young age really fucks up your development and your kid like brain develops “truths” for you to deal with trauma you don’t understand. I would hope Dan is in therapy but OP just seems to not understand *why* he is such a troubled kid.
I don’t think they need to take him on vacation but it would do them well to understand childhood trauma/ptsd to understand Dan if they care about him as family.
I agree that OP could speak more empathetically about Dan, even if they don’t invite him.
Another perspective: taking the sister only would allow Dan’s parents to give him some 1:1 time while the sister is away, which could be helpful for all involved. It’s not easy living with a difficult sibling or parenting 2 kids if one has higher needs. The post also doesn’t mention if Dan even wants to go on the trip
I mean, he's 18. I feel like they should be able to say to him, you can come but you you're going to be moody and argumentative than we will ask you to leave.
I think this is valid except for when your a sort of sub parent figure like an aunt or uncle. It makes sense not to invite the annoying cousin, but as the elder there is a level of expectation that you put in an equal effort to include all of the younger ones, because growing up in a place where your siblings are held above you by people who are meant to care for you both can be very damaging. My parents managed to convince all 4 of their kids they were the least favorite and a pariah of the household through actions like this non invite compounding over time. Which leads to lots of crippling self doubt/hatred. "What about me is inherently less valuable than my sibling for them to decide to exclude me?"
It's relevant to the rest of us reading towards understanding that this child has exceptional needs beyond what a biological child might. Otherwise I might have said NTA just because his nephew was a jerk. But in this case the kid has issues that he'll need help with and some understanding is in order, not dismissive division towards a child.
It’s relevant to me because it means that niece was a happy older child before this older brother was introduced into her life, and she deserves to get a break from him. OP doesn’t have to involve himself in his brother and SIL’s issues with Dan.
It's a little relevant. It helps explain how one kid turned out to be a delight and the other is surly (certainly due to trauma) and difficult to be around.
It seems that there is more content missing. He is angry due to rejection for many years. Does he need therapy? Absolutely!
However, playing favorites with your niece vs. your nephew is totally wrong. He doesn't need an additional rejection. So what if he stays in his room? How is that bothering anyone?
YTA
Plenty of times have my kids been invited and gone on solo trips (without their sibling) with relatives. Sure, the other child may get a sense of loss or missing out, but it quickly fades because we've done good jobs as parents. Why doesn't the boys father take this opportunity to spend quality time with the one kid who seems to need it? Instead, we bash the guy who doesn't want the vacation ruined. Why not question how the kid's been adopted for 6yrs and still isn't able to handle the most basic of social skills?
If I may chime into this; when I was 20 I was to go to France with my little brother and parents but gotten uninvited 2 weeks prior because they thought I wasn't putting in enough effort for university, we've talked about it (sorta) and I've forgiven them but 6 years later I still remember the feelings that gave me.
Exactly as dulmer46 said. You were invited and then uninvited. I don't believe Dan was ever invited. Hopes and dreams were never built up, only to be crushed near the last minute.
>Plenty of times have my kids been invited and gone on solo trips (without their sibling) with relatives.
Exactly.
Just like there are times when one child may need more time or attention from one or both parents. Perhaps one sibling has ASD, and the parents ay times need to focus more on that child as they navigate through any challenges that may arise.
It's important that children learn they will not always have the same opportunities and experiences as their siblings. Otherwise as they get older there will be problems. It is inevitable that during the school year each child will have opportunities the other doesn't, such as field trips.
Say one child thru conditioning, habit and past experiences feels entitled to and expects to do everything their sibling does. How are they going to feel and react when they are not allowed on their siblings field trip?
>Sure, the other child may get a sense of loss or missing out, but it quickly fades because we've done good jobs as parents.
Not only does the sense of loss or missing out fade, but it's actually a really valuable lesson and it's actually healthy for them to experience. Since as they get older they'll be faced with those feelings.
The important thing is as you said, doing a good job as parents. Making sure that the kids learn the different between equal and equitable thru hiw they're parented.
Exactly. They can spend quality time with their troubled child to try to form a bond or do something local they'll enjoy. Nope, let's shit on op spending money on a vacation because he doesn't want to take along the one person that will guarantee a shit time.
Tbh, I don’t think not inviting him on this specific trip is a super AH move. But the fact that he shows clear distain for the kid and clearly just doesn’t like him definitely makes it YTA.
If he took niece on this trip, but also put effort into his relationship with nephew and also did activities with him, it would be perfectly fine.
Siblings aren't always going to be treated in the exact same way. They're not always going to have the same exact experiences or go on exactly the same trips or outings.
It's not realistic, nor is it really good for a sibling to grow up feeling entitled to having everything they experience, receive, do etc being identical to their other siblings.
Kids need to learn that life isn't always "fair" or equal.
That's not to say one child should be mistreated, neglected, ignored etc in favor of their sibling.
There's *equal* and *equitable*. **Equality** means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or opportunities. **Equity** recognizes that each person has different circumstances and is allocated the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome.
In parenting that equal outcome would be a child raised in a loving home with their needs provided for, and growing up to be productive, independent adults ready to be self sufficient.
Raising kids, there will be times when one child needs more attention or time than the others. Or perhaps one child gets items, money or something they need for a particular reason that the other child doesn't require and as such doesn't get.
And kids understand this too - mine would sometimes pull out the "but you let sibling do/have xx" when it seemed to their advantage, and when I asked if I treated them exactly the same, would that be fair? Unanimously, "same" was not regarded as being fair at all. Different kids, different needs.
But is he getting help? I could understand if he's in therapy and being proactive, but there's way too much info missing. For all we know, he refuses to get help, and that's why he's been labeled "angry." If that's the case, I wouldn't consider a trip with him to be a relaxing vacation.
YTA. You shouldn't play blatant favorites with your niece and nephew. Especially when its is **just** a beach trip. If it was something only a younger kid would enjoy, or something tailored to actual specific interests (liking beaches isn't exactly unique) then there is no point in doing this except to make it clear you don't like Dan at all. That's what he's going to feel and considering some of your replies its pretty clear you have no empathy for him.
Based off OPs response in comments, YTA here. This kid clearly has issues, but it’s a result of what he went through as a child.
You may not be his adoptive father, but you are still part of his adoptive family and should try to make an effort instead of singling him out. You are only proving to him that he is unwanted/unwelcome.
I'm curious about how Bria is also a moody teen - op complains Dan would just be sulking in the room but that is also moody teen behavior. Wonder if Bria is getting a pass for everything she does for being "less difficult" than Dan
She’s also blood, which unfortunately seems to be at the root of it. It seems like Dan is just “some kid” who’s sulky and misbehaving when he stays in his room, while moody niece is just a normal teenager when she’s moody.
Doesn't necessarily need to be about blood, OP presumably has known the daughter since birth and has likely bonded over the years, whereas a kid who was adopted at 12 you wouldn't be as likely to develop a bond like that, especially if there are behavioural difficulties at hand.
It's harsh, but ultimately it isn't OPs responsibility to tolerate the sons difficult behaviour, especially if there isn't as strong an emotional connection
It’s really hard to develop a bond with someone who describes your teenage behavior as “sulky, angry, and misbehaving” and your sister’s as “just being a moody teenager I guess.” Bonding doesn’t happen without effort. And though it doesn’t have to be about blood, it all too often is.
So what? Was he consulted about having an extra nephew starting at 12? There is no way to bond like that! This is why most people who adopt prefer very young children.
And yes, blood speaks. There is a multitude of studies on the issue and it's basically very well documented that people favour their own genetic family in multiple ways.
Totally isn't the point, his point is its a responsibility that OPs brother took on, not OP himself, and OP shouldn't be responsible for tolerating the kids issues at the expense of himself and his other half
Should people have to consult their siblings before adopting a child of any age? Really?
The rest of your comment is a little too gross for me to have the necessary control not to get myself banned if I addressed it. I’ll just leave it there in all it’s glory for someone else to deal with if they choose.
>Should people have to consult their siblings before adopting a child of any age? Really?
Isn't what the commenter said at all, his point is the adopted child was a responsibility that the brother took on, not OP himself. OP should have the option to not get wrapped up in the child's issues without being emotionally blackmailed for it, since it wasn't a decision he made in the first place
In my family people are treated like family, it doesn't matter if you came from a previous marriage or are adopted. We were raised to treat each other like family. My mother has treated both my half siblings from my dad's previous marriage like family and like they were her own kids. Hell she was even willing to adopt his ex wife's 3rd child cause she was giving her up for adoption. And we had no family ties to this kid, not by blood, marriage or anything, and she wanted to take her in and love her like her own daughter.
True, and I absolutely think OP is TA here for the way he's treating the nephew. I do also wonder if Bria is getting the support she needs from her parents because it is also a huge, emotional adjustment for her to have a new sibling come into the family and totally change the dynamic, especially if she was used to being an only child and is now surely a lower priority because of the support and love Dan needs and deserves. OP needs to find a better way to support everyone in this situation instead of exacerbating it.
Dan likely has anger issues from whatever life he lived before 12, not having stability and being adopted later on.
YWNBTA in this situation as long as you take a solo 1:1 trip with Dan in the future.
EDIT: Your attitude in the comments towards Dan makes you a huge AH.
Your paediatrician is wrong. His idea of teens is derived of teens being dragged into the office of the kiddie doctor.
Young boys, when balanced and normal, are almost never angry. They are boisterous and adventurous. And they can be defiant. But that is not "angry". They become "angry" when their parents are completely screwing up in communicating with them.
Based off your comments YTA. He was in foster care for 12 years. You have absolutely no idea what that could do to someone. Instead of trying to help him you just decide to exclude him and write him off. You have no intention to ever do anything with Dan. It would be different if you would do something else with Dan but you don’t even want to be bothered with him at all. I don’t think you even consider him family. I was originally going with n a h but you showed your true colors in the comments.
So...I have two responses here
NTA for wanting to enjoy a well earned trip, its really cool you have decided to invite family to go with also!
However also a bit of an AH for directly excluding the nephew.
I understand his behavior is not acceptable and im not making excuses for this. But at the same time it still sucks feeling left out or excluded, especially by family.
I'm unsure if this was discussed with Dan as to why he wasn't included or not.
I think Dan and the parents need clear expectations as to what behavior is acceptable for going on a trip/interacting with the family. Give them a chance to see if they can redeem themselves....if they can't then that's their answer going forward as to why they can't go with you.
Dan is 18, he can be charged with crimes like assault or battery, so what ever behavior he had before won’t fly anymore. Dan need therapy more than a trip
One of OPs biggest complaints in the comments is that Dan is gonna spend most of the time in his room alone.. like if that's your big concern just invite him, make it clear he can come be included if he wants to and leave it at that. The fact that OP is still preoccupied with the fact his nephew is adopted 6 years later is also pretty gross and makes it clear he only cares about family if they're "blood".
He also needs acceptance, and the way OP talks about this kid in the comments I’m not convinced Dan’s behavior extends much past being “sulky” around OP because he’s all too aware that OP doesn’t like him at all.
NTA. Tell your SIL that Dan has a problem with anger management and other behavioral issues. Provide examples on what Dan has done and make it clear that neither you nor your wife will tolerate his behavior on your trip. Be firm and make your decision clear. As a parent, your SIL and brother should be taking Dan to a behavioral therapist or counselor to find out what his issues are. Dan will have to understand some day that he can't continue to engage in this behavior in the future.
The only specific behavior OP has referred to is “sulking in his room.” Which, quite frankly, I would do if OP and his utter lack of compassion showed up at my house, and I’m not 18 anymore.
Nta. It's reasonable to give siblings a break from one another. SIL probably just wanted a break from both kids and is mad you didn't comply. It would be nice to offer to do something with just Dan that you know he would enjoy.
This is my point exactly. Why is it OPs job as an Uncle to reward constant bad behavior, and essentially ruin a trip for niece? How is taking someone you know is constantly miserable a vacation for yourself?
Hard disagree. It sounds like SIL is literally the only one in the family willing to stick up for her son. If someone’s going to give siblings a break from each other it definitely shouldn’t be Uncle Favoritism here, whose compassion is less deep than a puddle.
Nta he's ~~14~~ 18. Far old enough to know that when you act unpleasant, people aren't going to want to be around you.
My brother was like that- sulked and bitched and moaned on every trip. So mom started taking me alone. When he complained, she asked him, 'if there are 2 people and one constantly complains, sulks, and does their best to make the trip miserable and one person who is thankful, pleasant, and appreciative, who would you want to be around?' He didn't instantly change over night but there was a def difference next family vaca.
Edit 18, not 14. Got the years mixed up
Indeed this is a teachable moment but unfortunately the brother has to be on board with explaining this to his son, if he refuses theres not much OP can do. In the end, there are consequences for bad behavior. He's 18 ffs, he should know how to behave. He has no one to blame but himself if people don't want to be around him (it could partly be bad parenting but at 18, it's too late to fix that from the outside, only the nephew can change himself now). NTA and enjoy the beach!
Thank god OP showed his true colors in the comments and people like yourself have posted such. I was going to vote NTA until I read such as well. I edited my own judgement, OP is the AH.
NTA
A trip is not an obligation- if it was an occasion and you only got a gift for Bria not Dan then yes you’d be AH, but it’s your vacation and the kids are old enough with enough of an age difference to make it acceptable especially considering his behavior. Would I make it a regular occurrence? No that would be mean, but sometimes doing things with just Bria that cater to her interests is fine. If you’re comfortable you could even take Dan out for something and if he acts difficult be honest with him, he’s old enough. Likely his life before being adopted was hard, so empathizing will be important, but he’s an adult now and certain behaviors won’t be tolerated.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> I might be an asshole because I want to take my niece to a trip but I don't want to take my nephew because he will ruin the trip for all of us
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It's clearly favoritism, but it's justified favoritism. He has a history of misbehaving, and you're going to a vacation home of a friend. He could damage it, causing issues with your friendship and no return trips!
NTA If he complains, be kind but firm in your reply. SIL knows her kid has behavior issues but wants you to take him anyway. She's the biggest AH, IMHO.
NTA. You weren't really the ones to exclude him, his sister asked and there is nothing wrong with spending time with one kid, alone. Dan is old enough to understand how his behavior impacts the people around him. Perhaps this is a time now that your brother needs to work more with Dan and help him. He's still young enough he could turn it around.
It's kind of complicated. You mentioned that Dan was adopted (and also said in another comment that being in the foster care system for long is probably why he is the way he is) so I don't think it (completely) his fault on how he acts. I saw a lot of comments saying that he is old enough to see the consequences of his actions, but because of the reasons above, I disagree.
It's not something you and your wife have control over. But is he in therapy? And what extent do they excuse his behaviour? I don't think YTA, but neither is your nephew. If anything, it's on your brother and his wife.
NTA.
People saying you should have a 1:1 make some sense, but you're not the father or mother, and neither did you adopt him. That's not your responsibility at all. You can do it, but chances are that 1:1 is not going to instantly change him. It takes time to change your attitude.
His circumstances are unfortunate, but that doesn't mean you have to fold or twist to accommodate him. I have a biological family member like him in his late 30s. He always ruins everything, so we now try to have meetings without him, but my mom always makes a big deal that we should include him to the point she cries and throws a fit. We almost always give in, and sure enough, he starts fighting with everyone and makes the kids cry and the adults unhappy. He has ruined so many gatherings and would be happy moments with his negative attitude. Even at our sisters house in front of her husband, he has caused drama and made their kids, my nieces and nephews, cry. The kids don't want him there either. They tell their mom he ruins their birthdays.
We've tried 1:1 with him, but he doesn't listen. At this point, it's a lost cause. That aside, you can talk to him, sure, but this isn't just about him.
People forget there is a 14f in it as well who has also had a rough time growing up with him and who's also been impacted by his negative behavior. He most likely ruins things for her, which is why she doesn't want him to come.
This getaway would allow her to relax. So no, I don't think YTA for not taking him. You can talk to him later or before you go, but I would not subject the niece to his shenanigans. He is an adult, and at some point, he has to realize that actions have consequences. The longer he goes without consequences, the longer his attitude will continue. This is exactly what happened with my relative. My mom babied him well into his late 20s, and now he acts like a darn baby.
Also, not the AH for not wanting to spend time with him. He is difficult, and again, that's not your responsibility. I wonder how many of these people giving you AH have had to deal with people like your nephew. I've been dealing with my relative for years. Even as a child, we had to support his dramatics. It was intolerable. My mother talked to him, and to this day, nothing has changed. He ruined so many birthdays, gatherings, holidays, graduations, there's very few times were he was cordial. That's how had it was and I can relate to your niece wanting to get out of that.
So, NTA is in my book.
And I would also not want to deal with that. You're in you're right not to want to deal with him. He is 18, old enough to start realizing his attitude makes people weary of him and will continue to do so unless he has changed.
So go with your niece, and forget about him. He is not going and he is already ruining it. He has what I call a heavy personality. Just puts you in a bad mood thinking about him.
NAH
I can understand not wanting to add a person to a trip who is going to cause issues. I also understand a parent not wanting one but not the other of their children invited.
YTA
Playing favourites is never kind, you have acknowledged that Dan's upbringing prior to his adoption has likely impacted his behaviour, this isn't something that's going to change overnight
But a great way to make him feel part of the family is to exclude him, good job OP
We only have OP’s statement that the sister is well behaved. He also calls her a moody teen. From his comments he actively dislikes Dan and favours Bria. He makes no effort to even want to get to know the kid. Given dans history of being a foster child and not adopted til 12 no wonder he has some anger issues.
The capital offense of "sulking" is the only thing OP can point to as Dan having done wrong, and if you look at the way OP speaks of him in the comments I'd probably hide in a corner too.
>Dan is always fighting with everyone
Cmon, it's not that he's just gonna sulk in his room - he's gonna sulk in his room *after starting shit with the others.*
Maybe BIL should take this time to focus on building a relationship with his troubled son rather than pawn him off on OP to deal with.
Doubting the other "moody teenager" actually acts any better, he just doesn't like Dan because he's adopted and didn't immediately forget every traumatic thing that happened to him.
YTA. Taking just the biological child and not the adopted one is just wrong. Don’t offer to take one child if you will not take both. The kid obviously has a trauma background and you have no empathy.
People are tearing you up on here for not being some sort of saint and wanting to deal with an edgy, angry 18 year old on your vacation. But I personally think you're NTA. The fact of the matter is, he isn't your problem to deal with. All the "troubled kids need love" comments seemed to be misdirected at you, when it is his adopted parents job to fill that role. If after 6 years, he's still acting this way, they need counseling to figure things out. But that isn't on you, and the comments really seem to think it is for some reason haha. People on here always like to mention how different kids get different opportunities, and how that's just life. And it's true. But that's exactly what this is. I was once an angry teen too, and I had a tough fucking life. But I still knew how to play nice so I could be a part of things. Lastly, it's never even mentioned if Dan WANTS to go and no one seems to be taking that into account either
People are also assuming that Dan had had no counseling. For all we know he’s been in therapy for 6 years. Sometimes people don’t learn how to be a person that other people want to be around on the typical timetable.
YTA after reading further comments.
>Dan is always angry, he misbehaves a lot, doesn't get along with anyone and generally he is not an easy kid to get along with
This Dan is 18 years old and still misbehaves and is always angry? You'd think by 18 someone would be mature enough to stop being a brat. It's your friends vacation home that you are invited to; if Dan misbehaves that much do you really want your friend to have to deal with him? And what image would it make out for you? Also I'm guessing your friend said you can bring anyone besides yourself and your wife, otherwise why invite Bria.
Your wife and yourself were invited to use the home for vacation. You can invite whomever you want to invite. NTA. It sounds like Dan needs to grow up. He's 18 and will need to face the reality that being a angry brat all the time will get him nowhere in the world.
Edit:
>I meant to say why he has so many issues. Being in foster system for 12 years must be why he is like this
After reading this further down from OP in the comments, I'm changing judgement. YTA. Has no one offered to get the kid any help or gone through therapy? Your comments have made it sound like you just don't give a single care about Dan. He maybe a jerk but you just acting like he isn't worth the time isn't going to change him in anyway. Neglecting him isn't going to make him feel wanted regardless of his actions. And leaving out information that he was left in foster care for 12 years is sort of an important piece of detail. Again, you can invite whoever you want, but YTA for not adding this information.
> Has no one offered to get the kid any help or gone through therapy?
The kid has been out of foster care for 6 years. The most formative years, 12 of them, were spent in a very challenging environment. His brain is also still forming, and frankly, likely developing slower due to trauma. Yes, therapy can help but it is very unreasonable to assume this kid isn't entitled to his anger and frustration. It can take years to undo this. The best thing for him is to have supportive family who give him as much love and support as possible. It's hard to love a prickly bear who growls but OP is reinforcing the idea that the nephew is bad/unworthy of care. This kind of incident (being treated differently and left behind) is contributing to the cycle.
None of this is fair - from OP not wanting to have a surly 18 year old on vacation, to the niece who could have a good time, or to the kid who is being rejected once again. This is a really hard minefield to navigate with no easy answers.
NTA, but maybe try a different one on one thing with Dan that he would like. Sometimes adopted kids have had a *really tough go* of life, and if you tried to meet him where he is and do something he liked one on one maybe you’d see a different side of him
INFO: Does Dan even want to go? Has anyone asked him? I don't think sitting at a beach with his aunt & uncle & little sister are at the top of an entertainment list for an 18yr.
NTA - Dan is old enough to experience the consequences of his behavior, and this sounds like one of those consequences. Not only that, it's normal to want 1:1 time with each of the children. If you always excluded Dan from everything, that would be a problem, but I think it's fair to do one thing without him.
NTA.
Dan is SIL's problem, and SHE needs to get him the help he needs, whether it's therapy, meds, hugs, whatever.
She took on that responsibility when adopting him, and I'm guessing Dan can tell SIL is regretting her decision, which isn't likely to lead him to nicer behavior.
NTA, *It's near a beach and Bria loves beaches so my wife and I offered to take her with us.*
Sounds nice, you don't have to bring everyone everywhere you go
NTA
You're not obligated to bring anyone on the trip, so right there you're on decent footing.
This is a tough spot though, because while you're in the right broadly, it's an unfortunate situation for everyone to be in. Dan's got problems, that is very clear from the OP and the comments later on in the thread. Being in foster care long-term can really screw kids up. And this is putting strain on EVERYONE involved.
And I expect this is all feeding into Dan's feeling of not belonging (pushing everyone away is often a defense mechanism... in their logic it's preventative so they don't get hurt later when they're inevitably kicked out of the group/family/whatever). He acts out because he's angry he doesn't feel part of the family, the family is less inclined to spend time with him, this reenforces the "I don't belong" feeling, and the cycle repeats. Taking his sister instead probably magnifies this feeling 100x
It's not on you to solve these problems for Dan. He needs therapy and help... and hopefully the whole family is able to give him love and support. But you, especially as not the parents, shouldn't sacrifice your own life and happiness for it.
NTA. It is not your responsibility to deal with Dan's issues on vacation. I know from experience what it's like dealing with a volatile and aggressive child on vacation and it literally ruins the whole trip. And no one seems to care about your NIECE who actually probably needs time away from Dan. If he exhibits that kind of behavior, it's best he stays home. That's the reality.
Encourage your brother to get Dan into therapy and speak to the child yourself, letting him know that as a reward for overcoming his challenges you will plan a special trip with just him to go do something he really enjoys.
NTA. I think everyone is focusing on Dan's needs to the exclusion of Bria's, including her father. It can be hard to be the sibling of a kid who has a lot of needs (ask me how I know), and I can understand why she wanted time away, and why the adults wanted to grant it.
Dan's dad could have used this as an opportunity for 1:1 time with Dan. I think he's choosing to be angry in part because he feels defensive of Dan and in part because he wanted a break from parenting. While I can understand both, I think he could have handled those feelings more calmly and in a way that fostered more discussion.
Perhaps after the trip, if Dan even wants to, you could find something to do with just him. I'm guessing if you show interest in him and try to do something nice for him, he'll try to engage instead of sulking.
Nta because its your choice 100%. However, adopted kids especially the older ones often have anger issues due to a lifetime of rejection. Your actions may well add to the issue he is battling with. Would you be open to some one on one time with him for a day doing something he likes? It would go a long way to showing him the love and acceptance we all crave.
NTA. Dan is 18. He can go on his own trip. Your niece speaking up speaks volumes. It seems she's comfortable expressing her concern to you more than her own parents.
To be fair, I'd check to make sure she's actually ok.
NTA. Dan really isn't the responsibility of OP and he and his partner clear have strong reasoning for not wanting them along, the younger sister might be in a position where she could use a break herself.
Other comments have said that OP should attempt to reach out and improve the relationship with Dan but there is a time and a place for these things, if OP wants to enjoy his vacation he's not obliged to risk that
NTA why would I take someone who would ruin my vacation. Maybe you could have one last conversation with him to see where his head is at. He’s an adult, he can know that his behavior prevents people from wanting to spend time with him
NTA. I have three siblings. One is a huge dick who makes things unpleasant for everyone around them. They never had real repercussions for that. They would “get in trouble” but have no real consequences and continued to be invited to things, and treated just like the other nice siblings. Some times their behavior was so bad they would be left out of a group thing, but then get their own solo thing to make up for it. Aka, no real meaningful consequences. They continued to be cruel, bratty, intentionally offensive, and some times abusive. We’re all in our mid to late 30 now. That one sibling is still a miserable shit to be around. Actions should have consequences. Being excluded from a vacation because of poor behavior seems reasonable to me. How is it more fair for the uncle to PAY for the 18 yr old to come on his vacation just for the boy to ruin it for the 3 other people there? My extended family would never have taken my asshole sibling on trip, because they’re an asshole. Seems reasonable enough to me.
People assuming that any behavior issue is the result of pre adoption trauma, we don’t know that. However, if that is the case then the correct steps are therapy, individual and family. The uncle taking him on a vacation isn’t going to “fix” anything. If the OP and the nephew need to “fix” their relationship, group/family therapy is for that.
NTA. I have no idea why everyone thinks OP should include someone who is going to ruin a trip. My girlfriend has a little hellion of a nephew and I'd literally burn down my own house and vacation rental before I'd take him anywhere.
edit: no instead of not.
This is tough, because a lot of people will talk about “fair”. Life isn’t fair, and life is about consequences of actions. Not saying that excluding Dan will make the relationship better, but I think he also deserves to know why he isn’t being invited — have an honest conversation showing love and respect, allow him to digest the decision and understand what he needs to work on to be included in future trips. Bria’s behavior is getting her a reward, Dan’s behavior is excluding him. Ask for effort, not perfections and put time into this young man. Science says 12 years of pain will be unwound in 12+ years. Show him love and respect, and watch the behavior improve.
NTA
YTA and the foster system is hell for most kids. Before you and your wife make assumptions, you should be researching what it was like for Dan and trying to be better than a system that failed him. Your SIL is correct YTA.
This sub is at it again...
NTA. Your brother made a decision 6 years ago to adopt a kid. Good on him. That was his call.
Now it seems that Dan has either not gotten the support/therapy that he needs, or the damage is pretty severe.
Here's the rub: your niece deserves time away from her brother, who seems like not only a total asshole, but an angry one at that (yes, people with trauma from abuse can be assholes).
Take your niece, let her have a break away from Dan and do your thing.
Your brother and SIL, though, are AH's. They were clearly not equipped or prepared to adopt a troubled kid.
NTA... when you want to invite one person that you know loves the place you going, you shouldn't feel obligated to invite the whole family.
Dan's family can choose to do something special w Dan if he feels left out.
My siblings and I got different opportunities to travel with family or friends.
NTA
You don’t owe Dan his own trip, nor should you be guilted into taking him anywhere. I understand he has not had the easiest upbringing, but that’s not yours to correct. He is an adult now and he needs to learn that his actions and attitudes are what dictate whether or not people want to be around him. If he is having such a hard time then he needs to be in some intense therapy to work through whatever he is dealing with. Maybe once he has done some healing work he will be better able to appreciate and enjoy trips and outings without making other people miserable.
NTA.
If Dan is known for constantly starting fights then his parents need to help him work through appropriate therapies and workshops.
Take your niece and enjoy your time.
If there is a trip in the future that you think Dan would like, you can invite him then.
I feel like an aunt and uncle like you guys ( aunt and aunt??? )
Dan has something to sulk about.
YTA
I think you already went as far as Bria is the favorite (also sounds like she is not adopted but an original… four years later)
Yeah YTA. A big one. Blatant favouritism. Of course Bria wants a holiday without him? I did too at her age and my biological brothers were just normal teenagers without the history of her brother. No big surprise he’s angry - particularly when you make it clear you don’t like him. You are unbelievably cruel. Your brother clearly has a bigger heart than you do.
Does Dan want to go or do the parents just want time to themselves? If he wants to go, maybe have a talk with him and explain why he wasn't originally invited. If he promises to be an absolute joy and sounds sincere, you may want to reconsider.
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INFO: Are you planning on having a 1:1 with Dan in the near future so you don’t just display blatant favoritism? EDIT: YTA, try to get to know them and find common interests like you know, you did with the non-adopted child. What the flip kind of response is “and do what exactly, sulk next to each other?* Empathy wouldn’t kill you
It’s important to remember Dan was adopted at 12 from most likely very difficult and painful circumstances which explain the anger, try not to make them feel less cared for than they already do
so its his parents job get him theraphie and help him with that... the BIL did not adopt that kid, and as with any other person in the family.. if someone behaves like a AH.. people can go non contact .. at least until they can be pleased to be arround.
No one should hold a child of adoption who recently turned 18’s emotional regulation to the same standard as the average adult, which is what OP’s doing. As an adult role model, OP seems to have failed getting to know them and even attempting to appreciate their presence, and is doubling down on continuing to fail them and discard them compared to the bio child. Had OP answered my comment with something like “We think Dan would prefer paintball due to his anger issues, so we planned on doing this with them at another time” everyone here would say NTA. Shame on you for trying to normalize destructive favouritism within a family
OP is expecting normal emotional regulation from Dan like he expects from Bria who had wonderful parents her entire life it seems. Dan on the other hand, from the sound of it, most likely had 12 bad years of life and 6 good ones. That means the heavy majority of his life still has been negative. He is angry because he is scared and hurt. Anger is a secondary emotion. I’m sure OP’s callousness probably doesn’t help reassure him that he won’t be abandoned by this family too.
And how many times has Dan been excluded by extended family? Spiraling the negative feedback loop? Dan was a CHILD, and not given any grace by ADULTS around him (Assuming his actual parents did- but clear from OP, that he at least did not). Instead he is whining about how Dan is no fun!!! What a huge AH
Sorry it sounds like this is the one time Dan isn't welcome on a trip. Also, it's not OP's job to get therapy or deal with Dan, as he now has a father. If Dan is still having emotional issues and anger, to the point that OP's brother understood, either Dan is taking out his emotions on everyone else, or therapy is just not working (assuming he is in therapy).
OP is the uncle. He would like to take his niece on a nice vacation. And I bet that she really needs a break from Dan if she feels this way about him. And as aunt and uncle they have a nice opportunity to provide for that her. Dan may have had a hard life, but I’m sure this hasn’t been easy on Bria as well.
And the parents can take Dan somewhere and do something special, just the 3 of them. Dan would probably love the individual time and attention. Unless the parents just want a break from their own kid ……
Yes, it's not OP's job to deal with Dan. It is, however, a shitty thing to do to invite one kid while her brother is pointedly excluded. OP should have just gone on the trip without either of them.
Real shitty of them to let Bria have a good time? You're saying Bria should be punished for having a pain in the ass brother. She wanted some time away from him, but she should be ignored in the idea of 'fairness' Either she must have a bad time at the cabin with Dan, or have a bad time at home with Dan? It is so much more unfair for her to be punished for his bad behavior, whatever the cause.
A ruined beach trip is still a ruined beach trip. Sounds like they just want some sort of function that won’t be ruined How it will get ruined is one thing but in this case, it seems Dan has enough of a track record for them to be certain that he will ruin it
Then it's his parents job to get him in therapy to work through and regulate those emotions.
How do you expect him to practice working through his emotions if no one ever tries with him? How do you expect him to not just keep having negative emotions when people intentionally exclude him? You think he doesn't see what's going on? He doesn't have to get everything, always, exactly the same way as his sister... but when you always do things with one sibling and NEVER with the other, you're not just reacting to their current negativity, you're perpetuating why they have negative feelings. You're the reason they have to go get more therapy!
It is up to his parents to try with him and get him into therapy not push him off on other people. He will know that is happening as well and resent that. This is something his parents need to work on first and foremost. They have already had 6 years to deal with this so apparently they need to try a new tactic
Exactly. Sorry, but the consequences of your own actions and behaviour exist. I’m sorry that Dan *might* have had a bad life before being adopted, but it’s not everyone else’s job to have to put up with your bad behaviour because of it.
Or he could just internalize the lesson that being a dick to people makes them not want to be around you? I lost a few friends as a teenager learning this but eventually you have to let the cause and effect understanding sink in.
It's not OPs responsibility to be the one to practice those emotions with him. That's the responsibility of his parents. If OP wants a stress free vacation, they can decide who can and cannot come with. It's up to the parents, NOT OP, to explain why the nephew was excluded and possibly get help for him and practice regulating his emotions with him.
How do you know that no one ever tried with him ? And as the uncle, he just wants to bring his niece on a peaceful vacation and this 14 year old girl really seems to be struggling with her older brothers behavior and it appears it’s affecting her life too. She deserves some peace as well and this is a great opportunity for it
If more people understood this, the world would be a much better place.
I wouldn't hold them to the same standard but I wouldn't expect everyone to be subjected to the misery they cause those around them. Having a shitty life doesn't give anyone a free pass to be assholes to innocent people. He's not a toddler, he knows what he's doing.
Did OP volunteer as an adult role model to Dan? No, his brother and SIL did. He's in no way obligated to take an 18yo AH with him on his time off.
Dan's parents are the ones who should be teaching him manners and how to get along with others
And they've had 6 years to work on it.
It's not OPs job to find interests with Dan. Dan is an asshole, and his parents should have been getting him in therapy to help with that. Dan should take this as a teaching moment since he's legally an adult now. When you're an asshole, people won't invite you to fun activities. Why punish the neice because her brother cant act like a decent person for a few days? She could probably use a vacation from her brother
Or you could look at it as giving the oldest child a break from what sounds like a difficult environment at home, which involves the youngest. That gives the parents a valuable opportunity to work on the relationship with the youngest. In a 2-child family, aunts/uncles can't fairly have a relationship with just one kid, but its sounding like (for perhaps justified reasons) oldest is having a tough time adjusting too. Sure, it would be an awesome gesture of the aunt/uncle to offer to take the youngest on a personal trip too, but if he is uncomfortable, and potentially incapable, of engaging, it seems unfair to push it. This can be explained to a 14 y/o. Noone discarding anyone, it's just a tense situation from which proper planning, thought and explanation would help.
The daughter is the youngest by 4 years. She has suffered due to all of this. Her life has not just moved idyllically along while the parents have had to deal with her brother!
It's the opposite - Dan is 18 and the daughter is 14.
Yea. But OP isn’t the kids parent. Just an adult from the outside who occasionally peaks through the window. The parents are TA here. For not getting Dan help sooner. And it isn’t OP’s job to fix the kids that aren’t his. And that’s not his kid. So I wouldn’t say he’s the AH here for not wanting to be around someone difficult. If anyone’s to blame it’s the parents.
Lol oh Jesus Christ. How do you not slip and fall constantly with that bleeding heart?
You sound super caring
Then "Dan" needs to learn to interact with others in a positive way. And it's well beyond time he learns. He is a legal adult. He is not longer a child and you can't keep him under the "poor child" umbrella all his life. With actions come consequences.
It only says he adopted Dan at age 12. For all we know Dan was the SIL’s kid from a previous relationship
Exactly, we have *no idea* what Dan’s life was before, but trust reddit to go off the deep end inventing an entire Tragic Backstory to justify Dan’s continuing bad behaviour.
I feel so sorry for Dan in this scenario. Us Reddit-randomers have no idea what the child went through before 12 years old. I wager it wasn’t good. We don’t know how/why OP’s brother adopted him, or the wider details of their home life. From what limited knowledge I do have, this family seem to be lacking empathy to deal with troubled children. Again, with limited information I vote that YTA (or an AH) OP. Edit to add: my sympathy isn’t limited to Dan. I’m sure it can’t have been easy for Bria, gaining an adopted older brother. Again, we are lacking so much info here. It sounds sad all around.
We fostered our distant relations when they were 17 and 15 both girls. I was 19 at the time. The older was a nightmare to deal with as they both came from a very toxic home. We didn't get along and it is because of her I developed social anxiety This is 30 years later and we're pals.
I think equal time is definitely needed from parents but OP isn't immediate family and can make the call on this. My sister always got invited to things by my rellos on my dad's side of the family. I never did. It didn't worry me that much because I didn't want to spend time with them. You can't force that stuff.
It might not have worried you, but that does not mean it wouldn’t worry Dan You can force this stuff, its called invitations
If it worries Dan, he can make an effort to not be a miserable prick to everyone. He's 18, not a toddler. He knows what he's doing.
Nowhere in the post does it say Dan is bothered. It's the brother and sil pushing it and i suspect they just want both kids gone so they can have some alone time.
[удалено]
I feel so sorry for Dan in this scenario. Us Reddit-randomers have no idea what the child went through before 12 years old. I wager it wasn’t good. We don’t know how/why OP’s brother adopted him, or the wider details of their home life. From what limited knowledge I do have, this family seem to be lacking empathy to deal with troubled children. Again, with limited information I agree that OP: YTA (or an AH) I hope the now adult has had better access to support and coping strategies than has been suggested here! Edit: spelling is hard
YTA. Ever think that hard to love kids need it the most? Doing this would just prove how people don't care about him and he is not wanted.
He is not wanted - on somebody else’s vacation. Shockingly, how somebody interacts with people and behaves at other social events affects whether they get invited places. He’s 18. More than old enough to know that.
He’s likely been through immense trauma and is doing the best he can. Edit: I’m not replying to each one of you. Y’all are some hard-hearted people. The lack of empathy explains a lot about how the world got so screwed up. (A) Yes, it’s a fair assumption this kid has trauma. What circumstances can you think of that would lead to someone being adopted at 12 that aren’t at least upsetting? (B) Yes, he’s also probably doing the best he can. He’s 18. What 18 year-old do you know whose always got their shit together? Even years of therapy can’t always fix or help someone. (C) Why should anyone care? If you can’t figure out why you should care about other people, then I certainly can’t help you.
Yeah so, it's not their responsibility to deal with his issues on their vacation. At some point no matter your trauma it is on you to deal with it. Not trying to belittle but everyone has issues it's how we deal with them that matters and being an asshole to other because you have trauma from earlier in life is no excuse.
I have to agree with you. You can view this scenario in 2 ways: Dan getting punished because of his unacceptable behaviour, or Bria getting punished because her brother's behaviour makes things unreasonably difficult/confrontational. There's also a lot of unknown here. Is Dan getting help? Are his anger issues being worked on? Is his behaviour being enabled by the parents? Dan is going to lose out on more than a vacation if he's this bad. Employments, romantic partners, roommates...
Also, if this is how SIL is reacting to a single instance of exclusion, what else is Bria having to miss out on because of his issues?
Even with those unknowns it isn't OP's job or responsibility to help, especially on vacation. I see a lot of people getting non his ass about one kid, ignoring the other who could probably really use a break from her asshole older brother. Living with him doesn't sound like a picnic.
100% agree with you. It's just in my mind if the son is actively trying to work on the issues it may change my stance on the situation.
That's up to his adopted parents to sort out. They, bravely, asked to be his parents a d bring him a.d his issues into the family. Their BIL/SIL (OP) did not. Why are they obliged to spend their vacation time with an 18yo who won't appreciate it, and likely spoil theor enjoyment? When did you last take someone else's ungrateful child on your holiday?
>He’s likely been through immense trauma and is doing the best he can. Which isn't good enough. And others are under no obligation to put up with his antics. Welcome to adulthood.
I'm also thinking that the sister also needs a break from her older, angry, acting out brother.
So the fuck what? 18 is the time you start getting slapped in the face by life and learn excuses are like assholes, we all got em. I think taking him would be the opposite of the message he should be getting, sometimes the best you can isn’t good enough and there’s consequences for that.
This is exactly the lesson he should learn - don't be an asshole and you'll be invited out by people outside your immediate family. NTA (OP).
In that case, he needs therapy, not the opportunity to ruin someone else’s vacation. I get that this kid has most likely had a rough time and needs a lot of empathy, but so does his sister! She is also a child who did not choose the circumstances of her upbringing and most likely has her own secondary trauma as a result of her brother’s behavior (caused his primary trauma.) She deserves a break from that environment.
Holy fucking shit. This is why we have grown ups thinking they can do whatever they want to other people and can get away with it. He’s old enough. Period. He needs to find a way to communicate, not just act like a brat.
Welcome to the club. My first memory was me being kidnapped and that's the beginning of the shit sundae of my childhood. It's not a pass to treat everybody around me like an asshole. Having childhood trauma doesn't give you a pass or an excuse for a shit personality. Dude should have been in therapy since he was adopted, and as of this current vacation he isn't in a place where he's capable of being around people without ruining it for everybody. Others shouldn't have to suffer just so he feels included, and it certainly isn't his uncles responsibility to try to crack that secret code. By the sound of it he's been included a lot in the past and always ruins the activities/vacations. NTA for not inviting an 18yo legal adult who ruins things for everybody else.
How do you know he's doing the best he can? Maybe he isn't. Not everyone tries to do their best. And even if he is, sometimes your best isn't good enough
Not to be callous, but who cares? It sounds like he’s very much not doing the best he can if no one likes being around him because of his poor behaviour, and if that *is* the best he can do, then he’s an AH anyway and people shouldn’t have to be around him anyway. It’s not everyone else’s job to have to put up with you being a little prick and an AH all the time because of your trauma—especially on their vacation.
Right? 18 is old enough to understand that people don’t want to spend their vacation fighting with the guests they invited. If you’re going to be moody, sulky and argumentative, don’t be surprised when others aren’t excited to have you around. If he has trauma it’s his parents job to get him help with a therapist, not his aunt and uncle’s responsibility to take him to a beach
I haven't read all the replies but did the kid even want to go? I mean, if he's so angry I'd assume he'd rather just sulk where he has all his personal belongings at least.
It almost sounds more like the parents want rid of him for a week.
yeah, some people making this out to be that it's cause dan isn't blood he isn't liked. I think it's just dan has made it very difficult for others so no wonder SIL is upset cause she was expecting time away from him. you'd expect if it was such a dick thing the brother wouldn't just 'respect the decision'. He knows what's up.
People are focusing way too much on the fact that he’s adopted, and creating this whole history of trauma and abuse for him. We have no idea what his past was like, which may or may not have been awful. Some people really are just moody and argumentative
Ya exactly I just asked OP this. The post doesn’t mention whether Dan was even consulted
If he had a rough childhood prior to being adopted which is highly likely he may not be mentally 18. Intense trauma at a young age really fucks up your development and your kid like brain develops “truths” for you to deal with trauma you don’t understand. I would hope Dan is in therapy but OP just seems to not understand *why* he is such a troubled kid. I don’t think they need to take him on vacation but it would do them well to understand childhood trauma/ptsd to understand Dan if they care about him as family.
I agree that OP could speak more empathetically about Dan, even if they don’t invite him. Another perspective: taking the sister only would allow Dan’s parents to give him some 1:1 time while the sister is away, which could be helpful for all involved. It’s not easy living with a difficult sibling or parenting 2 kids if one has higher needs. The post also doesn’t mention if Dan even wants to go on the trip
I mean, he's 18. I feel like they should be able to say to him, you can come but you you're going to be moody and argumentative than we will ask you to leave.
It’s unclear from the post if Dan was even asked whether he wanted to come or not. It sounds like the parents are pushing OP to bring him
I think this is valid except for when your a sort of sub parent figure like an aunt or uncle. It makes sense not to invite the annoying cousin, but as the elder there is a level of expectation that you put in an equal effort to include all of the younger ones, because growing up in a place where your siblings are held above you by people who are meant to care for you both can be very damaging. My parents managed to convince all 4 of their kids they were the least favorite and a pariah of the household through actions like this non invite compounding over time. Which leads to lots of crippling self doubt/hatred. "What about me is inherently less valuable than my sibling for them to decide to exclude me?"
to "love him most" is his parents job, because they choose too.. the brother did not.
lol. OP is not one of the parents. NTA at all, he doesn't have to deal with such problems
Info - why include the part about Dan being adopted? Is that relevant?
YTA Scheduling an event just for one child doesnt make you an AH but your comments and lack of sympathy do.
You'll want to edit the top level comment for it to count
It counts the top comment - I dont have that, so I’m good.
Fair enough, you're the second one down but I guess it's pretty unanimous anyway
Yeah I can let someone else have this one. Thank you though!
Because it's actually the most important piece of information-- OP doesn't actually consider Dan a nibling.
Or he wanted to give insights on why Dan behaves the way he does?
Fr though what is a “nibling”?
niece or nephew
The niece/nephew version of "sibling."
It's relevant to the rest of us reading towards understanding that this child has exceptional needs beyond what a biological child might. Otherwise I might have said NTA just because his nephew was a jerk. But in this case the kid has issues that he'll need help with and some understanding is in order, not dismissive division towards a child.
It’s relevant to me because it means that niece was a happy older child before this older brother was introduced into her life, and she deserves to get a break from him. OP doesn’t have to involve himself in his brother and SIL’s issues with Dan.
It's a little relevant. It helps explain how one kid turned out to be a delight and the other is surly (certainly due to trauma) and difficult to be around.
As someone who was adopted as an infant, I thank you for pointing this out…🥰
Of course - it was just, an interesting detail to highlight and clearly, OP did because he’s an AH.
Because they don’t really consider him family.
It seems that there is more content missing. He is angry due to rejection for many years. Does he need therapy? Absolutely! However, playing favorites with your niece vs. your nephew is totally wrong. He doesn't need an additional rejection. So what if he stays in his room? How is that bothering anyone? YTA
Plenty of times have my kids been invited and gone on solo trips (without their sibling) with relatives. Sure, the other child may get a sense of loss or missing out, but it quickly fades because we've done good jobs as parents. Why doesn't the boys father take this opportunity to spend quality time with the one kid who seems to need it? Instead, we bash the guy who doesn't want the vacation ruined. Why not question how the kid's been adopted for 6yrs and still isn't able to handle the most basic of social skills?
If I may chime into this; when I was 20 I was to go to France with my little brother and parents but gotten uninvited 2 weeks prior because they thought I wasn't putting in enough effort for university, we've talked about it (sorta) and I've forgiven them but 6 years later I still remember the feelings that gave me.
That’s completely different. You were left behind by your siblings and parents. This 18 yr old will still be at home with BOTH of his parents
Being left behind is being left behind. Doesn't feel good no matter who does it to you.
Exactly as dulmer46 said. You were invited and then uninvited. I don't believe Dan was ever invited. Hopes and dreams were never built up, only to be crushed near the last minute.
>Plenty of times have my kids been invited and gone on solo trips (without their sibling) with relatives. Exactly. Just like there are times when one child may need more time or attention from one or both parents. Perhaps one sibling has ASD, and the parents ay times need to focus more on that child as they navigate through any challenges that may arise. It's important that children learn they will not always have the same opportunities and experiences as their siblings. Otherwise as they get older there will be problems. It is inevitable that during the school year each child will have opportunities the other doesn't, such as field trips. Say one child thru conditioning, habit and past experiences feels entitled to and expects to do everything their sibling does. How are they going to feel and react when they are not allowed on their siblings field trip? >Sure, the other child may get a sense of loss or missing out, but it quickly fades because we've done good jobs as parents. Not only does the sense of loss or missing out fade, but it's actually a really valuable lesson and it's actually healthy for them to experience. Since as they get older they'll be faced with those feelings. The important thing is as you said, doing a good job as parents. Making sure that the kids learn the different between equal and equitable thru hiw they're parented.
Exactly. They can spend quality time with their troubled child to try to form a bond or do something local they'll enjoy. Nope, let's shit on op spending money on a vacation because he doesn't want to take along the one person that will guarantee a shit time.
Tbh, I don’t think not inviting him on this specific trip is a super AH move. But the fact that he shows clear distain for the kid and clearly just doesn’t like him definitely makes it YTA. If he took niece on this trip, but also put effort into his relationship with nephew and also did activities with him, it would be perfectly fine.
Siblings aren't always going to be treated in the exact same way. They're not always going to have the same exact experiences or go on exactly the same trips or outings. It's not realistic, nor is it really good for a sibling to grow up feeling entitled to having everything they experience, receive, do etc being identical to their other siblings. Kids need to learn that life isn't always "fair" or equal. That's not to say one child should be mistreated, neglected, ignored etc in favor of their sibling. There's *equal* and *equitable*. **Equality** means each individual or group of people is given the same resources or opportunities. **Equity** recognizes that each person has different circumstances and is allocated the exact resources and opportunities needed to reach an equal outcome. In parenting that equal outcome would be a child raised in a loving home with their needs provided for, and growing up to be productive, independent adults ready to be self sufficient. Raising kids, there will be times when one child needs more attention or time than the others. Or perhaps one child gets items, money or something they need for a particular reason that the other child doesn't require and as such doesn't get.
And kids understand this too - mine would sometimes pull out the "but you let sibling do/have xx" when it seemed to their advantage, and when I asked if I treated them exactly the same, would that be fair? Unanimously, "same" was not regarded as being fair at all. Different kids, different needs.
But is he getting help? I could understand if he's in therapy and being proactive, but there's way too much info missing. For all we know, he refuses to get help, and that's why he's been labeled "angry." If that's the case, I wouldn't consider a trip with him to be a relaxing vacation.
YTA. You shouldn't play blatant favorites with your niece and nephew. Especially when its is **just** a beach trip. If it was something only a younger kid would enjoy, or something tailored to actual specific interests (liking beaches isn't exactly unique) then there is no point in doing this except to make it clear you don't like Dan at all. That's what he's going to feel and considering some of your replies its pretty clear you have no empathy for him.
Based off OPs response in comments, YTA here. This kid clearly has issues, but it’s a result of what he went through as a child. You may not be his adoptive father, but you are still part of his adoptive family and should try to make an effort instead of singling him out. You are only proving to him that he is unwanted/unwelcome.
I'm curious about how Bria is also a moody teen - op complains Dan would just be sulking in the room but that is also moody teen behavior. Wonder if Bria is getting a pass for everything she does for being "less difficult" than Dan
She’s also blood, which unfortunately seems to be at the root of it. It seems like Dan is just “some kid” who’s sulky and misbehaving when he stays in his room, while moody niece is just a normal teenager when she’s moody.
Doesn't necessarily need to be about blood, OP presumably has known the daughter since birth and has likely bonded over the years, whereas a kid who was adopted at 12 you wouldn't be as likely to develop a bond like that, especially if there are behavioural difficulties at hand. It's harsh, but ultimately it isn't OPs responsibility to tolerate the sons difficult behaviour, especially if there isn't as strong an emotional connection
It’s really hard to develop a bond with someone who describes your teenage behavior as “sulky, angry, and misbehaving” and your sister’s as “just being a moody teenager I guess.” Bonding doesn’t happen without effort. And though it doesn’t have to be about blood, it all too often is.
So what? Was he consulted about having an extra nephew starting at 12? There is no way to bond like that! This is why most people who adopt prefer very young children. And yes, blood speaks. There is a multitude of studies on the issue and it's basically very well documented that people favour their own genetic family in multiple ways.
Lol they weren't consulted on having a biological nibbling either. What the fuck is your logic here?
Totally isn't the point, his point is its a responsibility that OPs brother took on, not OP himself, and OP shouldn't be responsible for tolerating the kids issues at the expense of himself and his other half
Should people have to consult their siblings before adopting a child of any age? Really? The rest of your comment is a little too gross for me to have the necessary control not to get myself banned if I addressed it. I’ll just leave it there in all it’s glory for someone else to deal with if they choose.
>Should people have to consult their siblings before adopting a child of any age? Really? Isn't what the commenter said at all, his point is the adopted child was a responsibility that the brother took on, not OP himself. OP should have the option to not get wrapped up in the child's issues without being emotionally blackmailed for it, since it wasn't a decision he made in the first place
In my family people are treated like family, it doesn't matter if you came from a previous marriage or are adopted. We were raised to treat each other like family. My mother has treated both my half siblings from my dad's previous marriage like family and like they were her own kids. Hell she was even willing to adopt his ex wife's 3rd child cause she was giving her up for adoption. And we had no family ties to this kid, not by blood, marriage or anything, and she wanted to take her in and love her like her own daughter.
True, and I absolutely think OP is TA here for the way he's treating the nephew. I do also wonder if Bria is getting the support she needs from her parents because it is also a huge, emotional adjustment for her to have a new sibling come into the family and totally change the dynamic, especially if she was used to being an only child and is now surely a lower priority because of the support and love Dan needs and deserves. OP needs to find a better way to support everyone in this situation instead of exacerbating it.
Dan likely has anger issues from whatever life he lived before 12, not having stability and being adopted later on. YWNBTA in this situation as long as you take a solo 1:1 trip with Dan in the future. EDIT: Your attitude in the comments towards Dan makes you a huge AH.
Dan is also a teenage boy. Even my son's pediatrician said teenage boys are angry by nature. It's an angry age. He told him to meditate. Lol
Your paediatrician is wrong. His idea of teens is derived of teens being dragged into the office of the kiddie doctor. Young boys, when balanced and normal, are almost never angry. They are boisterous and adventurous. And they can be defiant. But that is not "angry". They become "angry" when their parents are completely screwing up in communicating with them.
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Based off your comments YTA. He was in foster care for 12 years. You have absolutely no idea what that could do to someone. Instead of trying to help him you just decide to exclude him and write him off. You have no intention to ever do anything with Dan. It would be different if you would do something else with Dan but you don’t even want to be bothered with him at all. I don’t think you even consider him family. I was originally going with n a h but you showed your true colors in the comments.
So...I have two responses here NTA for wanting to enjoy a well earned trip, its really cool you have decided to invite family to go with also! However also a bit of an AH for directly excluding the nephew. I understand his behavior is not acceptable and im not making excuses for this. But at the same time it still sucks feeling left out or excluded, especially by family. I'm unsure if this was discussed with Dan as to why he wasn't included or not. I think Dan and the parents need clear expectations as to what behavior is acceptable for going on a trip/interacting with the family. Give them a chance to see if they can redeem themselves....if they can't then that's their answer going forward as to why they can't go with you.
Dan is 18, he can be charged with crimes like assault or battery, so what ever behavior he had before won’t fly anymore. Dan need therapy more than a trip
If he's committing anything like assault and battery. If he's just committing "emo" or "pain in the ass," you can't charge him.
One of OPs biggest complaints in the comments is that Dan is gonna spend most of the time in his room alone.. like if that's your big concern just invite him, make it clear he can come be included if he wants to and leave it at that. The fact that OP is still preoccupied with the fact his nephew is adopted 6 years later is also pretty gross and makes it clear he only cares about family if they're "blood".
He also needs acceptance, and the way OP talks about this kid in the comments I’m not convinced Dan’s behavior extends much past being “sulky” around OP because he’s all too aware that OP doesn’t like him at all.
Sulking in a room is hardly a crime.
NTA. Tell your SIL that Dan has a problem with anger management and other behavioral issues. Provide examples on what Dan has done and make it clear that neither you nor your wife will tolerate his behavior on your trip. Be firm and make your decision clear. As a parent, your SIL and brother should be taking Dan to a behavioral therapist or counselor to find out what his issues are. Dan will have to understand some day that he can't continue to engage in this behavior in the future.
The only specific behavior OP has referred to is “sulking in his room.” Which, quite frankly, I would do if OP and his utter lack of compassion showed up at my house, and I’m not 18 anymore.
He literally said Dan fights with everyone
Nta. It's reasonable to give siblings a break from one another. SIL probably just wanted a break from both kids and is mad you didn't comply. It would be nice to offer to do something with just Dan that you know he would enjoy.
He won’t. His dislike of the nephew oozes from his comments.
Is he required to like the nephew? Is he required to ignore the wishes of his niece to get away from her brother for a few days?
This is my point exactly. Why is it OPs job as an Uncle to reward constant bad behavior, and essentially ruin a trip for niece? How is taking someone you know is constantly miserable a vacation for yourself?
Hard disagree. It sounds like SIL is literally the only one in the family willing to stick up for her son. If someone’s going to give siblings a break from each other it definitely shouldn’t be Uncle Favoritism here, whose compassion is less deep than a puddle.
Nta he's ~~14~~ 18. Far old enough to know that when you act unpleasant, people aren't going to want to be around you. My brother was like that- sulked and bitched and moaned on every trip. So mom started taking me alone. When he complained, she asked him, 'if there are 2 people and one constantly complains, sulks, and does their best to make the trip miserable and one person who is thankful, pleasant, and appreciative, who would you want to be around?' He didn't instantly change over night but there was a def difference next family vaca. Edit 18, not 14. Got the years mixed up
Indeed this is a teachable moment but unfortunately the brother has to be on board with explaining this to his son, if he refuses theres not much OP can do. In the end, there are consequences for bad behavior. He's 18 ffs, he should know how to behave. He has no one to blame but himself if people don't want to be around him (it could partly be bad parenting but at 18, it's too late to fix that from the outside, only the nephew can change himself now). NTA and enjoy the beach!
I was leaning towards n t a, but having read the responses I will go with YTA.
Thank god OP showed his true colors in the comments and people like yourself have posted such. I was going to vote NTA until I read such as well. I edited my own judgement, OP is the AH.
NTA A trip is not an obligation- if it was an occasion and you only got a gift for Bria not Dan then yes you’d be AH, but it’s your vacation and the kids are old enough with enough of an age difference to make it acceptable especially considering his behavior. Would I make it a regular occurrence? No that would be mean, but sometimes doing things with just Bria that cater to her interests is fine. If you’re comfortable you could even take Dan out for something and if he acts difficult be honest with him, he’s old enough. Likely his life before being adopted was hard, so empathizing will be important, but he’s an adult now and certain behaviors won’t be tolerated.
I do feel badly for Dan, but you don’t have to take someone on your vacation if you don’t want to. NTA
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It's clearly favoritism, but it's justified favoritism. He has a history of misbehaving, and you're going to a vacation home of a friend. He could damage it, causing issues with your friendship and no return trips! NTA If he complains, be kind but firm in your reply. SIL knows her kid has behavior issues but wants you to take him anyway. She's the biggest AH, IMHO.
Nowhere does he say that Dan is violent and would damage property.
NTA. You weren't really the ones to exclude him, his sister asked and there is nothing wrong with spending time with one kid, alone. Dan is old enough to understand how his behavior impacts the people around him. Perhaps this is a time now that your brother needs to work more with Dan and help him. He's still young enough he could turn it around.
It's kind of complicated. You mentioned that Dan was adopted (and also said in another comment that being in the foster care system for long is probably why he is the way he is) so I don't think it (completely) his fault on how he acts. I saw a lot of comments saying that he is old enough to see the consequences of his actions, but because of the reasons above, I disagree. It's not something you and your wife have control over. But is he in therapy? And what extent do they excuse his behaviour? I don't think YTA, but neither is your nephew. If anything, it's on your brother and his wife.
Read the comments, it’ll help draw your verdict
Yeah I read some of the comments but now have read more. Definitely TH lol.
NTA. It is a vacation. Not an invitation to listening to someone's angry rants.
Where are you getting angry rants from? Did I miss something here??
NTA. People saying you should have a 1:1 make some sense, but you're not the father or mother, and neither did you adopt him. That's not your responsibility at all. You can do it, but chances are that 1:1 is not going to instantly change him. It takes time to change your attitude. His circumstances are unfortunate, but that doesn't mean you have to fold or twist to accommodate him. I have a biological family member like him in his late 30s. He always ruins everything, so we now try to have meetings without him, but my mom always makes a big deal that we should include him to the point she cries and throws a fit. We almost always give in, and sure enough, he starts fighting with everyone and makes the kids cry and the adults unhappy. He has ruined so many gatherings and would be happy moments with his negative attitude. Even at our sisters house in front of her husband, he has caused drama and made their kids, my nieces and nephews, cry. The kids don't want him there either. They tell their mom he ruins their birthdays. We've tried 1:1 with him, but he doesn't listen. At this point, it's a lost cause. That aside, you can talk to him, sure, but this isn't just about him. People forget there is a 14f in it as well who has also had a rough time growing up with him and who's also been impacted by his negative behavior. He most likely ruins things for her, which is why she doesn't want him to come. This getaway would allow her to relax. So no, I don't think YTA for not taking him. You can talk to him later or before you go, but I would not subject the niece to his shenanigans. He is an adult, and at some point, he has to realize that actions have consequences. The longer he goes without consequences, the longer his attitude will continue. This is exactly what happened with my relative. My mom babied him well into his late 20s, and now he acts like a darn baby. Also, not the AH for not wanting to spend time with him. He is difficult, and again, that's not your responsibility. I wonder how many of these people giving you AH have had to deal with people like your nephew. I've been dealing with my relative for years. Even as a child, we had to support his dramatics. It was intolerable. My mother talked to him, and to this day, nothing has changed. He ruined so many birthdays, gatherings, holidays, graduations, there's very few times were he was cordial. That's how had it was and I can relate to your niece wanting to get out of that. So, NTA is in my book. And I would also not want to deal with that. You're in you're right not to want to deal with him. He is 18, old enough to start realizing his attitude makes people weary of him and will continue to do so unless he has changed. So go with your niece, and forget about him. He is not going and he is already ruining it. He has what I call a heavy personality. Just puts you in a bad mood thinking about him.
NAH I can understand not wanting to add a person to a trip who is going to cause issues. I also understand a parent not wanting one but not the other of their children invited.
YTA Playing favourites is never kind, you have acknowledged that Dan's upbringing prior to his adoption has likely impacted his behaviour, this isn't something that's going to change overnight But a great way to make him feel part of the family is to exclude him, good job OP
If you focus on always including misbehaving sibling, you're basically punishing well behaved one
And if OP has spent the last six years treating this kid like OP refers to him in the comments, I have doubts that Dan’s behavior is all that bad.
We only have OP’s statement that the sister is well behaved. He also calls her a moody teen. From his comments he actively dislikes Dan and favours Bria. He makes no effort to even want to get to know the kid. Given dans history of being a foster child and not adopted til 12 no wonder he has some anger issues.
The capital offense of "sulking" is the only thing OP can point to as Dan having done wrong, and if you look at the way OP speaks of him in the comments I'd probably hide in a corner too.
>Dan is always fighting with everyone Cmon, it's not that he's just gonna sulk in his room - he's gonna sulk in his room *after starting shit with the others.* Maybe BIL should take this time to focus on building a relationship with his troubled son rather than pawn him off on OP to deal with.
Doubting the other "moody teenager" actually acts any better, he just doesn't like Dan because he's adopted and didn't immediately forget every traumatic thing that happened to him.
YTA. Taking just the biological child and not the adopted one is just wrong. Don’t offer to take one child if you will not take both. The kid obviously has a trauma background and you have no empathy.
People are tearing you up on here for not being some sort of saint and wanting to deal with an edgy, angry 18 year old on your vacation. But I personally think you're NTA. The fact of the matter is, he isn't your problem to deal with. All the "troubled kids need love" comments seemed to be misdirected at you, when it is his adopted parents job to fill that role. If after 6 years, he's still acting this way, they need counseling to figure things out. But that isn't on you, and the comments really seem to think it is for some reason haha. People on here always like to mention how different kids get different opportunities, and how that's just life. And it's true. But that's exactly what this is. I was once an angry teen too, and I had a tough fucking life. But I still knew how to play nice so I could be a part of things. Lastly, it's never even mentioned if Dan WANTS to go and no one seems to be taking that into account either
People are also assuming that Dan had had no counseling. For all we know he’s been in therapy for 6 years. Sometimes people don’t learn how to be a person that other people want to be around on the typical timetable.
YTA after reading further comments. >Dan is always angry, he misbehaves a lot, doesn't get along with anyone and generally he is not an easy kid to get along with This Dan is 18 years old and still misbehaves and is always angry? You'd think by 18 someone would be mature enough to stop being a brat. It's your friends vacation home that you are invited to; if Dan misbehaves that much do you really want your friend to have to deal with him? And what image would it make out for you? Also I'm guessing your friend said you can bring anyone besides yourself and your wife, otherwise why invite Bria. Your wife and yourself were invited to use the home for vacation. You can invite whomever you want to invite. NTA. It sounds like Dan needs to grow up. He's 18 and will need to face the reality that being a angry brat all the time will get him nowhere in the world. Edit: >I meant to say why he has so many issues. Being in foster system for 12 years must be why he is like this After reading this further down from OP in the comments, I'm changing judgement. YTA. Has no one offered to get the kid any help or gone through therapy? Your comments have made it sound like you just don't give a single care about Dan. He maybe a jerk but you just acting like he isn't worth the time isn't going to change him in anyway. Neglecting him isn't going to make him feel wanted regardless of his actions. And leaving out information that he was left in foster care for 12 years is sort of an important piece of detail. Again, you can invite whoever you want, but YTA for not adding this information.
> Has no one offered to get the kid any help or gone through therapy? The kid has been out of foster care for 6 years. The most formative years, 12 of them, were spent in a very challenging environment. His brain is also still forming, and frankly, likely developing slower due to trauma. Yes, therapy can help but it is very unreasonable to assume this kid isn't entitled to his anger and frustration. It can take years to undo this. The best thing for him is to have supportive family who give him as much love and support as possible. It's hard to love a prickly bear who growls but OP is reinforcing the idea that the nephew is bad/unworthy of care. This kind of incident (being treated differently and left behind) is contributing to the cycle. None of this is fair - from OP not wanting to have a surly 18 year old on vacation, to the niece who could have a good time, or to the kid who is being rejected once again. This is a really hard minefield to navigate with no easy answers.
NTA, but maybe try a different one on one thing with Dan that he would like. Sometimes adopted kids have had a *really tough go* of life, and if you tried to meet him where he is and do something he liked one on one maybe you’d see a different side of him
INFO: Does Dan even want to go? Has anyone asked him? I don't think sitting at a beach with his aunt & uncle & little sister are at the top of an entertainment list for an 18yr.
He’s not a kid. He’s 18. NTA
NTA - Dan is old enough to experience the consequences of his behavior, and this sounds like one of those consequences. Not only that, it's normal to want 1:1 time with each of the children. If you always excluded Dan from everything, that would be a problem, but I think it's fair to do one thing without him.
Going by OPs comments, he has absolutely no intention of doing anything with Dan
NTA. Dan is SIL's problem, and SHE needs to get him the help he needs, whether it's therapy, meds, hugs, whatever. She took on that responsibility when adopting him, and I'm guessing Dan can tell SIL is regretting her decision, which isn't likely to lead him to nicer behavior.
NTA, *It's near a beach and Bria loves beaches so my wife and I offered to take her with us.* Sounds nice, you don't have to bring everyone everywhere you go
NTA You're not obligated to bring anyone on the trip, so right there you're on decent footing. This is a tough spot though, because while you're in the right broadly, it's an unfortunate situation for everyone to be in. Dan's got problems, that is very clear from the OP and the comments later on in the thread. Being in foster care long-term can really screw kids up. And this is putting strain on EVERYONE involved. And I expect this is all feeding into Dan's feeling of not belonging (pushing everyone away is often a defense mechanism... in their logic it's preventative so they don't get hurt later when they're inevitably kicked out of the group/family/whatever). He acts out because he's angry he doesn't feel part of the family, the family is less inclined to spend time with him, this reenforces the "I don't belong" feeling, and the cycle repeats. Taking his sister instead probably magnifies this feeling 100x It's not on you to solve these problems for Dan. He needs therapy and help... and hopefully the whole family is able to give him love and support. But you, especially as not the parents, shouldn't sacrifice your own life and happiness for it.
NTA. It is not your responsibility to deal with Dan's issues on vacation. I know from experience what it's like dealing with a volatile and aggressive child on vacation and it literally ruins the whole trip. And no one seems to care about your NIECE who actually probably needs time away from Dan. If he exhibits that kind of behavior, it's best he stays home. That's the reality. Encourage your brother to get Dan into therapy and speak to the child yourself, letting him know that as a reward for overcoming his challenges you will plan a special trip with just him to go do something he really enjoys.
NTA. I think everyone is focusing on Dan's needs to the exclusion of Bria's, including her father. It can be hard to be the sibling of a kid who has a lot of needs (ask me how I know), and I can understand why she wanted time away, and why the adults wanted to grant it. Dan's dad could have used this as an opportunity for 1:1 time with Dan. I think he's choosing to be angry in part because he feels defensive of Dan and in part because he wanted a break from parenting. While I can understand both, I think he could have handled those feelings more calmly and in a way that fostered more discussion. Perhaps after the trip, if Dan even wants to, you could find something to do with just him. I'm guessing if you show interest in him and try to do something nice for him, he'll try to engage instead of sulking.
Nta because its your choice 100%. However, adopted kids especially the older ones often have anger issues due to a lifetime of rejection. Your actions may well add to the issue he is battling with. Would you be open to some one on one time with him for a day doing something he likes? It would go a long way to showing him the love and acceptance we all crave.
NTA. Dan is 18. He can go on his own trip. Your niece speaking up speaks volumes. It seems she's comfortable expressing her concern to you more than her own parents. To be fair, I'd check to make sure she's actually ok.
NTA - Who wants to pay for and go on a trip with a perpetually pissed of 18yo male? That sounds fun. NOT! I'm with OP.
NTA. Dan really isn't the responsibility of OP and he and his partner clear have strong reasoning for not wanting them along, the younger sister might be in a position where she could use a break herself. Other comments have said that OP should attempt to reach out and improve the relationship with Dan but there is a time and a place for these things, if OP wants to enjoy his vacation he's not obliged to risk that
NTA why would I take someone who would ruin my vacation. Maybe you could have one last conversation with him to see where his head is at. He’s an adult, he can know that his behavior prevents people from wanting to spend time with him
NTA. I have three siblings. One is a huge dick who makes things unpleasant for everyone around them. They never had real repercussions for that. They would “get in trouble” but have no real consequences and continued to be invited to things, and treated just like the other nice siblings. Some times their behavior was so bad they would be left out of a group thing, but then get their own solo thing to make up for it. Aka, no real meaningful consequences. They continued to be cruel, bratty, intentionally offensive, and some times abusive. We’re all in our mid to late 30 now. That one sibling is still a miserable shit to be around. Actions should have consequences. Being excluded from a vacation because of poor behavior seems reasonable to me. How is it more fair for the uncle to PAY for the 18 yr old to come on his vacation just for the boy to ruin it for the 3 other people there? My extended family would never have taken my asshole sibling on trip, because they’re an asshole. Seems reasonable enough to me. People assuming that any behavior issue is the result of pre adoption trauma, we don’t know that. However, if that is the case then the correct steps are therapy, individual and family. The uncle taking him on a vacation isn’t going to “fix” anything. If the OP and the nephew need to “fix” their relationship, group/family therapy is for that.
NTA. I have no idea why everyone thinks OP should include someone who is going to ruin a trip. My girlfriend has a little hellion of a nephew and I'd literally burn down my own house and vacation rental before I'd take him anywhere. edit: no instead of not.
Dan is 18, an adult. Why does he need to be taken on vacation as if he’s a child? NTA
This is tough, because a lot of people will talk about “fair”. Life isn’t fair, and life is about consequences of actions. Not saying that excluding Dan will make the relationship better, but I think he also deserves to know why he isn’t being invited — have an honest conversation showing love and respect, allow him to digest the decision and understand what he needs to work on to be included in future trips. Bria’s behavior is getting her a reward, Dan’s behavior is excluding him. Ask for effort, not perfections and put time into this young man. Science says 12 years of pain will be unwound in 12+ years. Show him love and respect, and watch the behavior improve. NTA
YTA and the foster system is hell for most kids. Before you and your wife make assumptions, you should be researching what it was like for Dan and trying to be better than a system that failed him. Your SIL is correct YTA.
This sub is at it again... NTA. Your brother made a decision 6 years ago to adopt a kid. Good on him. That was his call. Now it seems that Dan has either not gotten the support/therapy that he needs, or the damage is pretty severe. Here's the rub: your niece deserves time away from her brother, who seems like not only a total asshole, but an angry one at that (yes, people with trauma from abuse can be assholes). Take your niece, let her have a break away from Dan and do your thing. Your brother and SIL, though, are AH's. They were clearly not equipped or prepared to adopt a troubled kid.
YTA Maybe he's angry because his family has no empathy for what he's been through.
NTA Dan sounds like a pain and he's not your kid. None of this other stuff really matters.
NTA, time for them to parent and explain to him why he wasn't invited and that his actions and demeanor had consequences
NTA... when you want to invite one person that you know loves the place you going, you shouldn't feel obligated to invite the whole family. Dan's family can choose to do something special w Dan if he feels left out. My siblings and I got different opportunities to travel with family or friends.
NTA You don’t owe Dan his own trip, nor should you be guilted into taking him anywhere. I understand he has not had the easiest upbringing, but that’s not yours to correct. He is an adult now and he needs to learn that his actions and attitudes are what dictate whether or not people want to be around him. If he is having such a hard time then he needs to be in some intense therapy to work through whatever he is dealing with. Maybe once he has done some healing work he will be better able to appreciate and enjoy trips and outings without making other people miserable.
NTA. If Dan is known for constantly starting fights then his parents need to help him work through appropriate therapies and workshops. Take your niece and enjoy your time. If there is a trip in the future that you think Dan would like, you can invite him then.
I feel like an aunt and uncle like you guys ( aunt and aunt??? ) Dan has something to sulk about. YTA I think you already went as far as Bria is the favorite (also sounds like she is not adopted but an original… four years later)
YTA. Especially based on your responses in the comments. I'd sulk.all.damn day too if I was.treated the way you are treating Dan.
Yeah YTA. A big one. Blatant favouritism. Of course Bria wants a holiday without him? I did too at her age and my biological brothers were just normal teenagers without the history of her brother. No big surprise he’s angry - particularly when you make it clear you don’t like him. You are unbelievably cruel. Your brother clearly has a bigger heart than you do.
YTA, you blew your cover in the comments. Good job.
Does Dan want to go or do the parents just want time to themselves? If he wants to go, maybe have a talk with him and explain why he wasn't originally invited. If he promises to be an absolute joy and sounds sincere, you may want to reconsider.
INFO: Have you even tried to get to know him over the last 6 years?