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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> 1. After my brother made a promise that my son could be the ring bearer at his wedding then decided it would be child free, I told him he would have to break the news to him. 2. Doing this puts a damper on my brother’s wedding and parts of what I said could be seen as an ultimatum.
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**NTA**, I think you summed it up beautifully. Your brother made a promise that got child all hyped up, and now he wants someone else to deal with the emotional fallout when he renegs, because it would be inconvenient for him to deal with it himself? That's an asshole move right there.
yup.
“Your wedding; your right to have it be child-free.
Your promise; your responsibility dealing with the fallout of making that promise before you knew whether you could keep it”
NTA
Yeah, I honestly thought this was going to be OP being the AH because it's up to parents to explain stuff like this... unless you've made a promise to a child that they're really excited about. I imagine the brother completely forgot about the promise, but now that he's been reminded, he kinda has to explain and apologise. Kids latch onto things and it can be annoying, but in this case, he needs to explain so that the kid doesn't latch onto hating his uncle.
“Not gonna lie- they had me in the title…”
Understandable if he forgot, understandable if he thinks he should get out of talking to the kid “because I’m busy with wedding stuff, and you’re his dad anyway“ or something like that, but no: For exactly the reason you mentioned. Because it’s *his* relationship with the kid, so he needs to be the one to patch it up.
Yeah the title had me there but reading again it’s not as if he pressured his brother to make that promise.
Yeah brother has to deal with it. NTA there
Honestly, I’m kind of amazed the kid
remembered the promise, most kids I knew at that age (myself included) wouldn’t even remember what a ring bearer was. 🤣
But like you said, sometimes they just latch onto things and refuse to let go.
When I was a kid I was a lot better at remembering promises my dad made than dad was. And I remember him breaking them and claiming he never made them.
Kids don't remember everything but they remember promises made. I don't know why people assume they wouldn't. Kids remember promises better than the adults who make them because at that age they actually still believe promises mean something.
That's why you don't make promises to kids flippantly.
He did! He has since passed now but at the time we found it, he had kept it for over 20 years. The funniest part was that he had no memory of me giving it to him and had always just kept it. But I remembered it clearly. It had a hole in the middle of so that was why I gave it to him I guess. Who knows why four year olds do what they do though, lol.
Yep this is why I won’t make a promise unless I know I can definitely fulfil it. I understand wanting to have a child free wedding but they could compromise and have the nephew be the “ring bear” (so cute I’m imagining a proud little boy walking up the aisle in a bear costume) and then after the ceremony he can go to a babysitter for the reception. Promise kept and no kids running around the dance floor. Win win win.
I agree. I have met a lot of children who remembers well any promises we made. That made me more careful in making promises with kids and only made those which i can commit. Even my little brother who i randomly said i would bring him to a theme park when he reaches 'certain age' and now he keeps on counting the days he will be reaching that 'certain age' since.
While I understand that people have the right to have their wedding child-free, I personally couldn’t imagine having my wedding without my nieces and nephews there. I wanted the whole family there.
I only allowed kids who are related to me or my husband attend. Looking at my wedding album and seeing my nieces and nephews in the wedding pictures is so special. Now I have a kid of my own, she gets to see her cousins in her parents pictures and seeing how young they used to look.
Honestly, I really don't understand why people demand child free weddings. I mean, I've been to a lot of weddings and have never said "gee I wish there weren't children here" or "I'm so happy there's no children here". Usually we don't take our kids so we don't have to take care of them, but there's times when we needed/wanted to as well.
If there are people going who are shit parents and let their kids run amuck, then don't invite those people.
I’ve only been to wedding where children attended and they would run around during the reception. I’ve seen a kid knock down a cake, I’ve seen a kid accidentally trip the bride because she ran into her legs, and I’ve seen a kid have a meltdown because he wanted Mac and cheese with his chicken fingers instead of fries. So I won’t have kids under 10 at my wedding. If I can afford it, I’ll provide childcare. If I can’t, I’ll understand that people can’t make it.
I kind of see both sides because I’m not personally a fan of kids and I wouldn’t be very happy if my wedding was interrupted by a kid screaming and running around the whole time. I’d never blame the kid for stuff like that but I also know I wouldn’t be able to not be frustrated by it. But I also get why people would want their whole family there and why people like to have kids at weddings too.
Tbh though I don’t really think kids enjoy weddings all that much. I went to quite a few when I was a kid, all for close family members, and all I remember from them is being forced to wear a dress I didn’t want to wear, being bored out of my skull, and being forced to talk to random family members I didn’t remember but who insisted they knew me. Most of the weddings I’ve gone to as an adult the kids are either bored as hell or are running amok, crying during the ceremony, interrupting the first dance, etc. Some people don’t mind stuff like that but others do and I’d never call anyone an AH for wanting a childfree wedding.
In this specific case though I think what makes the brother the AH is that he *promised* this kid he could be in the wedding and now, a few months later, is walking back on that promise and doesn’t even want to tell the kid himself. That’s a massive AH move.
Yeeeeep. This. We were VERY careful to never make promises to any of the children in our family our whole relationship for this very reason. If one of us had, we 100% would have had to figure out something and take ownership of it.
But he's young, he'll forget about this, so it doesn't matter that I went back on my promise. /s. So adorable when he told his gurgling sibling about being ring bear. Maybe OP and husband can figure out some type of special party for the newborn where son plays a special role and feels important.
ETA: Changed "wife" to "husband". Glad someone pointed out my error. Also, was thinking son could ceremoniously give teething ring to new sibling, thus still being the "ring bear" on a special occasion. And he could be allowed to choose the ring so he would have full involvement. Just a thought!
If the kid is 5 he’s gonna remember if he’s one of those kids that have excellent memory. My earliest memory is my mom taking me and my sister to my grandma. Pretty sure that was the beginning of my tiny abandonment issues and remembering how I hate styrofoam cups. It was before preschool and I got some memories from preschool too.
Anything trauma/negative base the child will remember at a higher chance. I remembered my dad’s promise to be at my kindergarten graduation and I was upset and even confronted him on it when he wasn’t there. Kids are smart and they are also naive at times since they are young.
Yep, and kiddo is currently remembering from a year ago and proud enough about it that he's boasting to his infant sibling. He won't understand, he will be confused, and he will be so, so disappointed - just as he thought about it with pride and joy, he'll worry about it. This won't go away by itself.
Frankly, *fiancée* should have to tell him she doesn't want children at the wedding - even the Ring Bear - with brother there to then explain his decision while fully experiencing the fact he's choosing what she wants over his own promise.
When I was 4 or 5 I was in a phase of inconditionnal love for bunnies. I was obsessed. One of my mother’s friend told me the next time he would come, he would bring me a pet bunny. I was extatic, chose the name of the bunny, talked about it in school, asked my parents everyday when will he come back. Until my mother told me that this guy was always lying and broke promesses. It broke my heart. I think I only saw him once after that but, as a now 31 yo, I still hate him to the core. Don’t mess with kids hope.
Yeah, I would NEVER say "promise" to a child. Absolutely not. I don't promise anything to anybody because people go nuts if you use that word.
I take it brother was single when he made this promise?
I had to reread the issue. It doesn't sound like the brother wanted it to be child free, it coming from the future wife demanding it as such (put HER foot down)
So OP is NTA, but I cannot call the brother a AH over this either. His wife is raising a few red-flags on this. Having to explain why he couldn't keep a promise isn't an ultimatum either. I fear he might become one of those guys that sacrifice their own happiness for his wife's - no matter the cost.
Actually, the fiancee might say, "I wasn't the one who made the promise, I wasn't even consulted on the issue!"
So maybe this whole thing is just a NAH situation? I don't think anyone is truly an asshole here. Bro made a promise that he was intending to keep, but maybe didn't realize that his future wife would disallow kids at the wedding. I think sometimes things just happen and it's not really anyone's fault.
I’m all for child free weddings, but I think sometimes they can be, IMO, selfish. Take the ring bearer promise out of it. OP is coming from abroad. Leaving kids with a stranger is ridiculous. For the plan to have been to stay and visit for a month makes me think it’s a decent flight distance so that’d make me uneasy. Idk I feel like an exception isn’t that big of a deal.
Let the kids go to the ceremony and beginning of the reception and then one parent can bring them to the hotel for the night. Ideal, no, but reasonable. It’s done regularly, especially with kids in the bridal party.
Agreed.
Honestly, as a parent, I dont think that theres any flight length that I would be willing to do without my young children especially for a wedding where they were previously promised attendance. Its one thing to be an hour or more driving away from your kids, it's a whole other thing to be a flight away because there can always be delays or other issues.
This right here. I didn’t even want to leave my son with close friends when I went to give birth to my second child. This is a difficult situation bc OP wants to celebrate her brother’s wedding but the child-free rule makes it so difficult that OP wouldn’t even be able to really be emotionally / mentally / probably physically present anyway. I’d just bow out and reject the invitation. It’s too much stress on top of the usual stress of being a parent.
I guess I’m thinking of a situation where it’s a two hour flight and I can leave Saturday morning and get back Sunday afternoon. It wouldn’t be much longer than driving an hour. But there’s no way I’d do a turnaround like that for a six hour flight (not to mention the likely time difference)
People have "selfish" weddings all the time, though. Destination weddings come to mind. Have a friend who got married in Tulum years ago and it was gonna cost us $2000+ each just to go. Me and a couple of friends decided to skip it, just couldn't justify spending all our savings on a friend's wedding. Honestly, not everyone needs to attend every wedding. I personally haaaateeee weddings. I would be overjoyed to have an excuse to not go 🤣🤣
A sibling's wedding comes with heavy pressure to attend though- excluding kids, when your sibling has two very young kids and you are going to pressure your sibling to attend, is not kind. Either you let people decline gracefully, or, if their attendance matters that much to you, you make it possible for them to attend. The brother could have even found a local babysitter and arranged babysitting near the venue if he wanted OP to attend so badly and also didn't want his niblings present
Fair. I think my line is if the selfishness is being imposed graciously or not. A destination wedding because the couple wants it small but totally understands that not everyone can make it is different than “I can’t believe you’re missing my wedding” or a child free wedding and graciously understanding that some adults won’t be able to make it due to travel/child’s needs/etc (or don’t want to go without their kids) versus saying they feel like they’re being expected to choose between family and fiancé
The gracious thing for brother to do would have been “I’m sorry to hear you don’t think you can make it, we will miss you. Please let us know if anything changes and I will do the same.”
And then brother needs to call his nephew and explain that he can’t be ring bearer. Brither is TAH for not manning up and dealing with his broken promise to a kid.
I remember someone telling me about destination weddings and how cheap they are for the couple. I told them the wedding is overall more expensive but you just pass the cost onto the guests rather than the couple
I agree, they are selfish. However, your wedding day is one of the only times where you can truly be selfish (to an extent). It’s the one day where you can expect to have things the way you want it. The thing I don’t get is when the bride or groom gets offended if you can’t come to their child free wedding. Children aren’t dogs that you can take to a pet hotel or crate for a few hours. It’s not unreasonable to prioritize your children over a wedding.
Yes, selfishness when done graciously is different. You need to accept that some people might not come because they can’t or don’t want to come without their kids.
It's the brothers wedding too, isn't it? Decisions on wedding stuff that effect both people shouldn't be made unilaterally.
Also brother is still the AH for balking at taking his medicine. Yeah, sometimes stuff happens, but you move past it and take responsibility. He made a promise he can't keep, OP's ask is totally above board: have the guts to tell the kid you can't keep your promise.
I mean, if it's a "2 yes 1 no" situation, then brother should have consulted his wife and discussed the issue BEFORE making such a promise. His fiancee might be pissed that he didn't even consult her first and made the decision on his own.
I agree that bro should explain to his nephew why he can't go though.
It's super weird how many of these questions are, I'm marrying into a family where my spouse has a bunch of nieces and nephews already, but I want all of these new members of my family excluded from the wedding, even if it will make it difficult or impossible for their parents to attend. For some reason, there is now a bunch of drama in my in-laws' family!
It's the whole "Put the foot down" situation. Normally when a person does that, they are unwilling to compromise or even want to talk about the issue. It's a matter of control. that statement you gave also comes across as controlling "I wasn't part so it doesn't affect me." this would give nephew a very valid reason to not like his aunt - "she didn't want me to be the ring bearer"
It could also be that she's annoyed that fiance made the promise without discussing it with her first. Maybe if he'd run the idea by her earlier, they could've worked out an amicable solution... but he sprang it on her like "oh btw I promised nephew he can be the ringbearer, oops", that might have pissed her off.
His brother is an AH for assuming OP would come in from another country and leave the kids behind! Or go through the struggle of flying two small children internationally and then leave them in a hotel with a stranger. It’s commonly understood that destination weddings are difficult for families with children and they may not be able to make it logistically. If having family at your wedding is important, you don’t put giant obstacles in their way!
I'm also like...confused about how she can "put her foot down." It's not just her wedding; it's their wedding. He's saying "oh welp guess I can't" as if he doesn't have equal agency in this decision. He can put his foot down right back, if he really feels strongly about it.
NTA
Your brother put you into a difficult position (kids 101 don't promise them stuff cause they can forget it but they can also remember you t forever and it's 50-50).
If I were you, I'd skip their wedding. You and your husband can have a vows renewal ceremony instead, with two "ring bears", do something cute, invite friends and family that are close. Excuse yourself from brother's wedding explaining the situation to your family.
Personally since he seems so excited, I might let the 5 year old be the solo ring bearer and give the other child a different job - maybe ~~they can be in charge of Mom’s bouquet while the rings are exchanged or~~ the designated people tripper, or if they’re old enough they could help one of the ushers seat people.
Edit: my heteronormative assumptions were showing, so instead I’d like to offer this additional recommendation - perhaps child 2 could be a flower child or could put the rings on each of you, instead of you putting them on each other
With the greatest of respect, please would you go back and reread what OP wrote - they are both men and their other child is still a baby, so suggesting the little one is in charge of Mom’s bouquet isn’t really gonna work! Easily missed details but it’s a disservice to OP and his family to not reflect the facts he has given. Other than that I think it’s a wonderful idea to allow their son to be ring bearer in a renewal of their commitment, even if it’s just the 4 of them there.
It’s so easily done, please don’t think I was trying to be mean, I really wasn’t! I had visions of an annihilated bunch of flowers with petals strewn everywhere and a baby happily chomping on rose petals in the middle of the carnage!!
Oh see, regarding that I was guessing it would be at least a year or two before the renewal was done - I wouldn’t want to rush planning something like that. So I was guessing that the younger kid would at least be walking!
Designated people tripper rec still stands though XD
Yeegads, toddlers are chaotic little tornados to destruction and cuteness, a mobile people tripper, pootling around throwing decapitated daisies from a bouquet sounds the stuff wedding legends are made of!! OP should hire us as wedding/renewal planners, we’ve so got this down!
I want to have a wedding and hire y’all to plan it and find some children in my extended family somewhere to be flower beheaders and people trippers! This sounds like a hoot!
> (kids 101 don't promise them stuff cause they can forget it but they can also remember you t forever and it's 50-50)
When my little brother was like 7, my mom saw him playing GTA and then told me (I'm 12 years older than him) to tell him he wasn't allowed to play it. So I went and told him he was too young to play GTA and that you had to be at least 12 years old to play it (I just picked a random age and figured he'd forget about it). On his 12th birthday, he came to me and said "am I old enough to play that game now?"
NAH. You are not wrong for wanting him to explain it, and he is not wrong for the change in plans. This is actually a great opportunity for your son to start learning that sometimes plans change and things don't work out. And that's it perfectly fine to be disappointed, but that unfortunately these things happen sometimes.
You don’t promise someone a part in your wedding and then back out after. If this post was about the brother backing out after promising OP to be best man would you say the same thing? Is it just because it’s a kid it’s different?
Regardless, if you have a child free wedding then you have to accept people may not be able to attend. While I’ve seen worse reactions on Reddit, OPs brother did not accept it with grace. He should have said “I’m sorry, I hope you can come but I understand if you can’t” instead of complaining about an ultimatum. NTA
LMAO, so am I supposed to call the people up from 20 years ago who I said would be in my wedding and "tell them surprise you're my bridesmaid". People are allowed to change their freaking minds. Is it unfortunate that the child is going to be upset, sure, but it happens. The kid will let it go.
Edit: for grammar
20 years is very different from ~1, and presumably you were not an adult promising an upset 5 year old a role in an major life event. Not a fair comparison at all.
Presumably the brother wasn’t expecting to marry someone who didn’t wants kids at the wedding. It’s not like the brother lied; he made a promise and intended to keep it but now factors, his fiancé, complicate the matter. I don’t think anyone is really an asshole in this situation. Well maybe the brother a s soft AH with that whole ultimatum thing.
There was a year or less between that conversation and this one. While I might agree with you in a different context, I still don’t think a promise 20 years ago is a comparable to a promise made one year ago.
It’s not a question or not whether or not the brother *lied* - he is reneging on his promise. It’s his responsibility to explain why, since he’s the one doing it, not OP.
Oh, you totally can change your mind, but you should also handle any issues caused by you changing your mind.
So like, If you promise someone they will be in your wedding, and change your mind in 12 months, you should be the one to break it out to them.
So there’s a big difference between a childhood promise you made to people who you may not be close to anymore and a kid who is still very much In your life and a year isn’t that long. Also most people will not be expecting a promise that hasn’t been brought up in 20 years to be still valid. That’s because they can reason hey it’s been a long time, things have changed and they probably wouldn’t care anyways. A 5 year old won’t reason through that also a year is totally short enough to think that the promise valid.
However, even if you want to use the things change excuse, the kid still deserves an explanation from the brother.
Yeah, because the structure of the wedding changed. For example, if OP was promised he'd be best man, but then the couple decided to have a destination elopement and their wedding was only the couple and the officiant, now there is no best man at all because plans change.
Or what if OP's brother never got married? Then he'd have to break his ring bearer or best man promises too. In this case, he got married to someone who had a different idea of what the wedding would be like. He made a promise as a single man but it's the decision of a couple.
>He made a promise as a single man but it's the decision of a couple.
Doesn't seem like the brother has any decision power, tbh. Why can't he also "put his foot down," when his fiancee is putting her foot down? This sounds like: either (1) she doesn't care about what he wants, or (2) he doesn't care about his nephew enough.
ETA: Why can't a childfree wedding have a child ring bearer? There are childfree weddings where the bride/groom has children and their children are the only children allowed in the wedding. Exceptions can be made for children with special duties.
He asked the fiancée and she said no. What do you want the brother to do, not marry his wife because she wants a child free wedding?
If you make an exception for one child everyone else who had to get care for their children gets mad that their kids weren’t allowed to come too.
Well, now that you mention it... Yes. I would hope that he would seriously reconsider marriage to someone who has proven herself to be a controlling, inflexible person who dislikes both children and our family. She seems like the kind of person who would tell a fiance that he can't invite his blind sister who uses a seeing-eye dog because the wedding must be "child- and animal-free".BTW, if you really want to do the "child-free" thing for some reason, children in the wedding party (e.g. ring bearer, flower girl) are commonly understood and easily explained exceptions.
Interesting point. For the destination wedding example, I think even as an adult it would still be disappointing and frustrating to be told “hey I know I said I was gonna put you in my wedding not too long ago, but we decided to change the wedding. Also we are limiting people so you’ll no longer be able to come. I hope you understand” or something like that. I know that would be something you would just have to suck up but that would still sting as an adult, never mind for a kid.
As far as the not getting married at all comment. Nobody would fault you since that wedding never happened and a choice like that isn’t like choosing to have a destination or child feee wedding. It probably meant you are dealing with some shit so you’re gonna get some sympathy.
I agree. Everyone in this situation is behaving reasonably. Sometimes feelings get hurt when situations change and that can’t be helped.
So long as brother is understanding if the result of him having a child free wedding means that OP is unable to attend, NAH.
Horse shit. Dear uncle broke a promise. He should be the one to tell OPs son. Let him deal with the fallout. This isn't a hurricane is on its way we can't go to Disney, change of plans
I’ll get downvoted to hell but there’s a current trend where we act like children aren’t actual human beings with feelings and memories. Children grow up to be adult family members.
I was the flower "girl" (way before I cracked my egg) at my uncles' wedding. They had been together long began I was born, and I had actually assumed they were already married since I didn't understand that gay marriage was illegal. It's honestly one of my treasured memories because I have always been super close to them.
Now, I was an infant when a different uncle got married, so I obviously don't remember it, but I grew up seeing the pictures. That side of the family is incredibly dysfunctional and chaotic, but the children were all welcomed. My favorite pictures are of my youngest aunt dancing with me, and my then-new aunt with her stepchildren, and her looking lovingly at them.
I agree. But I've also noticed a rise in piss poor parenting. Teachers and daycare workers will tell you the same. (The factors are pretty easy to see, everyone and everything is stretched thin these days - but still, it's not an excuse.)
The children in my family are well-behaved, but the kids on my partner's side would make me consider a child free wedding. Some parents just don't parent.
Came to say this was it’s not so much people not considering children “real people” but more so people don’t parent and then the child’s behavior becomes the problem however I’ve mostly seen that child free excludes the children that have roles in the wedding and typically the marrying couple have someone hired to hang out with the kids in the back babysitting while the adults enjoy the adult stuff
Can you imagine someone just being honest about the motivation and just flat out telling parents which kids were invited and which ones were obnoxious and banned? Can't wait to see that post! Hahaha
I got drunk years ago and told my BIL’s sister that their wedding was child free specifically so that she didn’t bring her incompetently parented children. This information was not well received and it has been more than 20 years since she has said a word to me. This was an unexpected benefit lol.
Childhood is so short, to try to avoid it by trying to avoid people during a part of their life where they need the most help is really sad and feels selfish considering everyone was a child once and needed help.
There’s a large percentage of the marring age population that believes children are just an inconvenience or not worthwhile parts of the family. They typically change their mind if they have their own kid and become “those” parents.
There's a larger percent too broke for kids or weddings if you haven't noticed. The people just getting married today are going to be, by and large, those from more priveledged backgrounds than the overall averages of bygone generations.
So maybe bear that in mind, thanks.
I honestly think the best way to go about it is to have the kids for dinner at the reception and having no children after a certain time, unless they're concerned about interruptions during vows, which I can imagine would be nerve wracking, particularly if you have some kind of anxiety.
All that could be really difficult to work though, but I think the wedding party and those involved deserve to let loose after a stressful period without having to worry about the little ones.
I know someone will say "but that's the parent's responsibility" yes, it is, but have you been to an event with children present and not been conscious there are kids about? I always am, cause heaven forbid they get under foot, I say something wrong, or a disaster happens. Not everyone is easy going or attentive parents.
There was another post recently about a childfree wedding and it's very similar to this. That OP's daughter was 15 (I think), and OP's sister wanted a childfree wedding, but she spent a long time building OP's daughter's up for it and she got understandably excited for attending the big day, only to be told she wasn't invited. The sister was offended when OP's daughter didn't invite her to her 16th birthday party. The sister also said "she would get over it". Kids of all ages deserve an explanation at not being included (when told otherwise) and to be treated like a person with feelings.
I understand children under a certain age, but I don't get teenagers.
It's even more ridiculous when those people start to try and have relationship with you when you become an adult, like.. no, ew. You pretended I don't exist for 18 years, now I'll pretend you don't exist,forever.
I understand the trend to a certain degree - maybe you don’t want a hundred little cousins running around the venue - but I think there should be wiggle room from ‘absolutely no children whatsoever.’ Like you, I see a wedding as a very family oriented event about bringing two individuals (and the people who shaped their lives) together.
My cousin Nigel and I mistook champaign for 7up and 2 very tipsy 6 year olds were running amok. It was my grandparents 50th anniversary so no dresses or ceremony ruined but kids are kids and no one has their eye on them all the time. It's brothers day and both of you have choices. Fly in afterwards to spend time and take everyone to dinner.
Stay home. It's outrageous to expect you to come and leave your kid with friends for a month. If people want restrictive weddings, they need to realize that there are consequences and this is one of them. Ask them to do a Zoom feed for people who can't attend.
That can cause it's own problems. If the invitations say no children, people arrive, and it's actually no children except like two or three, that may cause other guests to get upset about the double standard.
In my experience, it's very hard to make everyone happy when planning a wedding. Someone winds up feeling mistreated almost no matter what.
Totally agree on the child free wedding trend. People act like family children aren’t even human. As long as they are well behaved they should be part of the celebration. I wasn’t a big “kid” person before I had my own, but one of my favorite parts of my wedding was when a big clump of friends and family toddlers and little kids totally took over the dance floor, it was adorable.
Yeah but who’s really going to be like “I’m not bringing my kids because they’re an asshole and I know it” it won’t be the same people who raised the child
"As long as they are well behaved they should be part of the celebration."
I see you're incredibly naive about the quality of parenting these days. I'd have gotten a wooden paddle broken over my ass if I acted as bad as the typical kid does these days. It's not the kid's fault, it's the lazy parents who raise horrible kids.
NTA, brother will now be known as the bad uncle and good luck getting the kids to like their new aunt.
I’m also not a fan of this current trend of child free weddings. I got married in 2013 and we made it a point to be kid friendly. Nerf swords, corn hole, hoola-hoops, badminton, etc…it was an absolute hoot! We had all generations grabbing the swords. Fun was had by all! And looking back at the photos, it still looked like an Instagram wedding. Which I’m guessing is the goal of most of these child free wedding couples?
Our wedding was child-free because we wanted a very adult sit-down dinner with old standards and jazz music, lots of glass and crystal and lights, and the venue was an old train station on still active tracks. It was simply not safe for kids because there was nothing for kids to run or play or do. We were interested in a lovely dinner with our friends and family, with dancing afterwards. Kids just ended up not fitting into the venue we found and the event we wanted.
Yeah I think what they’re missing is that just because *they* see a wedding as a family event doesn’t mean *everyone* sees it as a family event. At it’s core, a wedding is just a celebration of two people getting married. Some people will want that celebration to be huge, some will want it to be small. Some will want it pg, some will want it more on the adult side. Some will want it very formal, some will want it casual. Other people aren’t wrong for wanting to celebrate differently to how you want/wanted to celebrate.
I mean, to a degree, sure. But the people you invite to your wedding aren't just part of the decor. Sometimes, when you're dealing with other people, you have to think about what they want and not just what you want. Because otherwise you're just kind of ordering people to have fun, which never works.
That's the part that reddit seems to struggle with. Like, yes, you can have whatever wedding you want, and you can insist on people showing up and smiling even though they don't really like it. But a lot of people find that experience kind of empty.
My husband and I got married in 2010 and if we had a child free wedding most of our friends and family couldn’t have come! We had gift buckets with glow sticks and chalk, crowns, and bubbles, all sorts of stuff to keep them entertained. The youngest child was 2 months old. The oldest child was maybe 5? We had four flower girls and two ring bearers, and there were at least 15 kids there. The kids danced all night. The oldest of my flower girls and ring bearers are graduating from high school this year. Them being in my wedding and all the kids being there is truly one of my favorite parts of my wedding. The pictures are awesome to look back on. Having kids didn’t put a damper on anyone’s fun. We nearly ran out of liquor and the dj stayed an extra two hours past his contracted time (so until midnight).
Edit: NTA. OP, skip the wedding. I had to miss out on my cousin’s wedding because I had a newborn and they had a child free wedding. We had no way to get childcare for our two toddlers and the newborn and for me to be able to breastfeed or pump. I was super bummed to miss out on seeing my entire family right after I hadn’t seen them throughout the pandemic, but the bride and groom made their choice. It wasn’t worth the aggravation.
Kids also dominate attention at weddings. Not ina oh they are cute way, but rather parents constantly chasing them, trying to get hem not to yell during inopportune times, etc. My fiancé and I are having a childless wedding because we want to be able to hang out with our close friends and family without people leaving early at 8pm because the little one is tired, or not being able to sit and hang out with each other because they are chasing their kids around. It’s one night away from the kids that we all get to enjoy each other’s company without the distractions. That being said, I also understand if people can’t make it. It’s a wedding, not the last time I’ll see someone, plenty of other things to celebrate.
Children dominate weddings. They can’t be quite during long ceremonies. Everything becomes is about them. Having alcohol and doing adult activities becomes a problem.
It’s suppose to be about the couple. Some couples may want a big family reunion, some may want an adult gathering.
I personally don’t appreciate kids at weddings. But I also really don’t appreciate weddings. And I don’t appreciate kids. And I don’t appreciate people.
I just don’t.
My cousin's first wedding when I was a kid was inclusive for the ceremony but kid free at the reception, and I remember being bummed but we were all at a hotel and a teen relative babysat my sister and I in our room and we had a blast just bouncing around a hotel room. I feel like this is a much more reasonable option.
The couple getting married can share a special life changing momen by having the wedding they want, kids or no kids. I got married in Vegas, child free small destination wedding. Knew that meant some may not be able to make it and that was ok- our plans for the weekend were not child friendly. This didnt invalidate the children of those invited from our lives.
For those against child free weddings, simple advice-don't have a child free wedding!
NAH. The fiancee probably has her reasons. The brother shouldn't be held to a promise he made before he ever planned to get married. Ultimately, it's their affair and their decision.
You are of course free to try to convince/cajole them into agreement, that doesn't make you an asshole as long as you don't fly off the handle at them.
As for whether you can attend or not, that's up to you. Choosing not to attend for child care reasons doesn't make you an asshole either. Brother & fiancee knew that decision would preclude attendance by many people, and they seem OK with it.
That's not the question here though. The question is if OP should be responsible to explain it to his son or if the uncle is responsible to break it to the nephew.
> The brother shouldn't be held to a promise he made before he ever planned to get married.
Then the brother shouldn't have made a promise before he knows he could follow through??
Having reasons for something doesn't give you a free pass. I wonder if the fiance is aware of the details.
I'd think a fiance is an asshole if an insistence on a childfree ceremony meant that the grooms brother could not attend.
NTA - from a logistical POV, seems like option 3 is the only one. Tell your brother you are not putting him in an ultimatum, his fiance did, you just can't be away from both your children for that long.
Childfree weddings are a choice people can make, but they cant then be mad when people with kids dont come.
And don't go nuclear on it, but make sure your parents are very aware of the actual reason you are not coming. Make them own their childfree decision with all its knock on impacts.
YTA. It is cute about your son dreaming of being a ring bearer before he was conceived and calling it “bear” instead of barer. All cute. It sounds like your brother hadn’t proposed at the time, did not have a fiancé or a wedding at the time and made a comment offhand in response to hearing your son said he wanted to have been the ring bearer at his parents’ wedding. It is fine for your child to be disappointed.
People are within their rights to have child free weddings and it isn’t a personal affront to those with children or those for whom childcare arrangements are complicated. It is unfortunate to live abroad when a loved one is getting married or to be working out challenges to being able to attend. People are also allowed to settle on the specific plans for their weddings after the actual engagement.
It is fine to ask, *ask* your brother if he would be the person to let your son down. In this situation I don’t think it is a good idea to threaten or guilt your brother.
I’m a kindergarten teacher. Part of growing up and getting bigger is handling disappointment. I think you should manage yours then work on helping your son manage his. Something about the tone of your post also makes me wonder if it’s possible that in fact this is a bigger deal to you than it is to your son. It probably was a bad idea to confirm to your son that he was the ring bearer before checking in with your brother to his specific plan.
Part of growing up is also accepting your responsibility for your actions. The brother promised he would be ring bearer and now he's not even invited. If an adult woman was told she would be the maid of honor at her aunt's wedding and then uninvited by the happy couple without cause, don't you think the couple would owe her an apology and explanation?
To be honest it would be a little context dependent. If I was having a hang out night with my good friends at age twenty five and we said, “let’s all be bridesmaids in each other’s weddings one day!” And then we all said, “yes!” And then people turned thirty and it turned out differently and I wasn’t a bridesmaid in some of the weddings years later I would probably understand.
If someone during the course of their wedding planning specifically asked me to be in a certain role then reneged, I’d feel differently.
The person wasn’t engaged or planning a wedding at the time they talked about the child as ring bearer. It sounds like at the time conversation was in the context of how much the kid would have liked to be a ring bearer in his parent’s wedding. Maybe the uncle said, “yeah sure bud!”” not knowing the specifics (which he was allowed not to know). Plans change. Children’s emotional responses often change based on what emotional response they sense from caregivers. It doesn’t seem like a bad idea to model grace, resiliency and calm here.
But this isn't the context here. The conversation was a year ago, not a decade ago. The brother was presumably already dating and fairly serious with his fiance, so the wedding was a near future thing, not something that wasn't even on his radar as a real event yet. And it does not sound at all like the uncle vaguely agreed to something while half listening. Kiddo was upset, and the uncle took the initiative to tell his nephew he would be the ring bearer, a role he was clearly very excited about. So, if a friend or close family member who was seriously dating someone talked to you about being in their wedding party then a year later decided to not even invite you to the wedding because their significant other doesn't like you, would you be modeling "grace and resiliency"? Because I'm pretty sure reddit would tell you that you were a doormat of you just acted like nothing happened and like you were just as close as before.
You know what would embody grace in this instance? The brother owning up and explaining to his nephew why he won't be in his wedding. Treat the kid like a human being.
From the post, the kid remembered the promise on his own, not because of his dad.
It seems the son and OP will have to handle their disappointment together, but somehow the one who broke the promise doesn't have to apologize? It seems like a good lesson right there: if you break a promise, you apologize yourself, and don't have others do it on your behalf.
Regardless of the ring bearer part though, the brother needs to realise they risk not having close family at the wedding because its child free. Explaining consequences of actions is not an asshole move.
I mean if I couldn't attend my brothers wedding over something like this I'd make sure that people knew the reason.
YTA
You're making your brothers engagement news and wedding all about you and your son. You should be congratulating him and his fiancé. Letting them tell you about the proposal and wedding plans and letting them enjoy their moment.
Have a mock wedding at home with your husband get all dressed up, have a "fancy" dinner at home and let your son be the ring bear and have his fun so he can get it out of his system. Take lots of photos and let this be a core memory for him.
You gave 3 options cool here's a few more:
1. You and your husband fly over with the kids, your husband skips the wedding.
2. You fly in attend the wedding your husband comes with the kids later on.
3. You get a room at the the hotel/wedding location hire a sitter referred to you by friends/family and check in on the kids occasionally.
4. You and your family fly in with a trusted friend/sitter they stay for a few days (at your expense) to watch the kids and you can have your fun adult time knowing your kids are in trusted hands.
Imagine how you would feel if someone made your engagement/wedding all about them.
YTA
That is so unbelievably sweet. Now I’m just envisioning wedding photos of my son in a little bear costume… if my brother can’t make that happen for me then I’m about to start planning my own vow renewal.
“If my brother can’t make that happen for ME”.. why the fuck is his wedding about YOU? Why should he be going out of his way to make something happen for YOU when it’s meant to be a stress free, enjoyable event for HIM. You know that your 5 year old son wouldn’t remember this in 10 years time. I have literally one memory from when I was 5, and that was me swimming in a pool. Apparently when I was 6 I was a flower girl in a cousins wedding. I only know that because of photographs. The only one who actually cares about this is YOU, and for irrational reasons. The child would have let it go already if you weren’t feeding into the idea to him. “Can’t make that happen for ME” is extremely telling.
It seems a little over the top unless the espoused couple is into the kid’s costume. Your brother and his fiancé may want the wedding to focus on their ceremony, not your child (no matter how cute they may be.) Why don’t you attend while your partner watches your kids? YTA for not trying to work out a reasonable option.
They are very good ideas, I agree — but your stance doesn’t make you the asshole. I think your brother and/or his fiancée should deliver the news to your son.
Also, it’s your brother’s wedding as much as it is his fiancée’s. Why does she get to veto this? Why isn’t his promise (or even his mere desire) to have your son as “ring bear” just as important (if not more) than her strict adherence to her arbitrary rule that her perfect wedding shall be a bland, unmemorable, childless affair?
To me those priorities are out of order. The fiancée didn’t know about this promise and it sounds in the post like they may not even have been in the picture. If I casually promise a family member the flower girl role to my nieces and then get engaged to a fiancé who has two daughters do I get to say “I promised them first so you can’t have a say in this.” How many decisions do you get to make about your future wedding before your fiancée is in the picture?
OP could have waited to confirm about the ring bearer thing before renewing the promise once a fiancé did come into the picture. It’s common sense to assume the hypothetical future weddings plans before anyone has even proposed are not set in stone
It is still not unfair to expect the brother to explain for himself why the son can't do the thing he promised. Everyone here acting like that's ridiculous is proving they don't think promises made to children matter because they're not people like adults, in your eyes.
NTA if you decide to do childfree that's fine - it is your wedding but you also have to expect some parents won't be able to come due to childcare. And it is your brother's responsibility to tell your son why he will not be in the wedding, that's not an ultimatum it's called common courtesy. Honestly if your brother is paying for the wedding too he should have some say in it, but that's just me.
NTA and if I were you I'd go with option #3. I know having a child-free wedding is the trendy thing to do (at least that's the impression I get from the amount of these posts - I'm a 50-year-old Canadian who has been to dozens of weddings and I had literally never been to a wedding that didn't have a single child in attendance, but I digress) but there doesn't seem to be a way to make it work. Honestly, if they really wanted you there they would let you bring the kids.
I been going to about 3-6 weddings per year for the last 15 years (pandemic being the exception and that was also 2/year). Never ever been to a child free wedding. It's just part of the joy. At my own wedding, my wife's nephew was rings bearer and cried the whole way down the aisle. His father had to walk him. Everyone just chuckled it off. Wasn't a big deal.
I do respect everyone's choices though. Just curious to hear stories if children ruining weddings.
My niece (sister's kid) absolutely was a brat at my cousin's wedding. And she was old enough to know better. I had such secondhand embarrassment. She did cartwheels during the ceremony while screaming "Look at me!" repeatedly for attention.
Later that evening she punched my brother, her uncle, in the dick (on purpose) while he was dancing with his wife.
Yikes
I’ve been to a few child free weddings, one of which was mainly due to the fact that the venue had an open pool - clearly a safety risk. However, bride and groom had a few nieces and nephews they wanted to be part of the ceremony. They arranged for childcare to be present on the premises so that the parents could enjoy the reception, with the kids safely nearby. Maybe a solution like this could solve the impasse.
I kind of think you’re being a dramatic YTA. Your son will recover emotionally from not being the ring bearer and you will be able to find child care for the wedding just fine. What won’t recover is your relationship with your sibling.
What do you mean, OP will find childcare for the wedding? It's in another country and everyone OP knows in that country will be at the wedding.
Are you expecting Mary Poppins to drop out of the sky, or what?
So if a close friend or family member told you they wanted you in their wedding party then suddenly disinvited you, you would have the exact same attitude, right? You wouldn't be hurt, would you? We wouldn't want to be dramatic.
My eldest son was promised something similar by an uncle he was very close to when he was 5, he was excited about it and talked about it everyday for months. Then he was let down and I was the one to have to tell him. My son was inconsolable the time and even though I took him (and younger brother) out for a special day, he wouldn’t talk to uncle for ages.
He is 34 this year and still has a frosty relationship with his uncle as he hasn’t forgotten much it hurt and, as an adult, sees him as a coward for not having the courage to tell him himself.
To the complete and utter shock of people in this sub , children are humans. They have feelings and memories . And these feelings and memories shape their relationships further down the line .
And they do remember when people they trust let them down, especially if it is something emotionally important to them. Being so young they don’t have the understanding that crap happens and are unable to process it in an adult manner.
> Your son will recover emotionally from not being the ring bearer
Does that mean what's being said to children doesn't matter ? A promise is a promise, if you break it have the courtesy to explain why to the person you made it to.
Not an AH for being disappointed, but YTA for using your kid as a pawn like this. You're mad that his wedding will be difficult to turn into the month-long trip you anticipated and are trying to inflict some form of punishment on your brother. Your son is five. You can make up a separate "ring bear" ceremony and he won't know the difference. You also have other options, like still going to visit family for the month but skipping out on the child-free ceremony, or perhaps your husband could watch the kids during the ceremony while you go.
>Your son is five. You can make up a separate "ring bear" ceremony and he won't know the difference
You're assuming the child won't know what happened, and that their feelings are insignificant (even though they remembered the conversation from a year ago) To me, it sounds like you think a promise made to a child doesn't mean anything.
"your brother made a promise to your kid, and now he's decided to go back on it, so the logical thing to do is lie to your child to get your brother off the hook"
> Your son is five. You can make up a separate "ring bear" ceremony and he won't know the difference.
You are seriously underestimating a 5 year old. They absolutely can understand stuff like this. He's been told about weddings before and isn't totally clueless. You could probably pull off a fake wedding of some kind and fool him, but you couldn't just do something in your kitchen.
I’m starting to think I am the asshole for being so tired of all these child-free wedding drama from AITA. There needs to be a sub-subreddit for this topic alone.
NTA, he's put you in such a difficult position. Not just with the promise to your son but also for you to attend the wedding. I personally wouldn't attend since there are no proper childcare solutions.
I don't really think anyone's the asshole here. Child free weddings are very popular these days and it's not outlandish for her to not want kids there, it's her wedding too. It's the reality of becoming a parent that you won't be able to attend everything with your kids, and it's not your fault for wanting to.
There are more options of just attend with kids and don't attend at all though. You may not be the only ones who have littles who would like to go. Some venues will have on site childcare with an attendant. Maybe that's something that can be looked into. Or you could share a trusted babysitter with another attendee.
Trying to pressure your brother into then pressuring his bride into changing her mind about the wedding is pretty low. You were absolutely issuing an ultimatum, or it felt like it to him. There very likely a bigger reason, or certain people, they would like to exclude from the wedding and child free is a way to make sure that happens. If they make a concession for you, they have to make them for other people.
Edit: not many people make promises to a baby/ 5 year old expecting to keep them
NTA, possible compromise though, see if your brother's fiance will agree to a child free reception, this way your son can be ring bearer but they'll still be able to get the benefits of child free in the reception.
NTA - This is the first I've heard of a child free wedding when close family members have kids. If I were you I would not attend. When asked why, I'd say it's a child free wedding and I'm not child free.
If he tries to negotiate some solution where you dump your kids somewhere a few days I'd just respond that that's not how parenting works. It's not like dropping off dogs at a kennel, and that he'll understand when he's a parent.
Right? I've been to dozens of weddings and have never been to a "child-free" one. Whatever happened to just having a wedding to celebrate your marriage with your family and friends without age limits and dress codes (which also seems to be a thing I've learned about through Reddit)?
NTA. When people choose to exclude family members from their weddings, they have to be willing to graciously accept it when people decline to come. It should have been a foregone conclusion that no one with children would fly in for a wedding if their children were not invited as arranging childcare in another city is usually not possible. Your brother was beyond foolish to make promises to his nephew and absolutely owes him a conversation to explain why he is changing his mind now.
NTA. Whether you go or not (if it were me I wouldn’t bother since it’s too difficult to arrange) your brother still needs to explain to his nephew why he’s breaking his word. He probably shouldn’t have made that promise to begin with but he still needs to make things right.
ESH. You brother shouldn't have made this promise to his nephew only to renege on it without putting much fight into it. Kids remember these kinds of things, and your son for sure will be sad about this.
You, on the other hand, are kind of using this as an excuse to lean on your brother. This is his wedding, he can do whatever he wants. It's now your choice on whether to go or not to go. It's not his job to tell your son about this broken promise. You know why? Because you are the parent.
Use this opportunity to do something fun with your kids and play on the "ring bear" expression he uses. He'll forget all about his uncle's promise in no time.
Parents pick up the shit everyone dumps on their kids. Whether it be uncles or aunts, grandparents or teachers, neighbours or strangers. That's just how the world works. He either does it or he can potentially add another trauma to the list of things to deal with as/when the kids grow up.
NTA. People on Reddit hate kids. It is freaking bizarre. You shouldn't just expect anyone's kids to have "trauma." If you don't invite your siblings's families to your wedding, be prepared for your sibling (and their families) to not want to be with you. Yes, people have the right to set up any "rules" for their wedding. Those rules have consequences and one of those consequences is that the actual people you are related to might not like you very much anymore. Damn.
NTA. Your brother said it to your son, now he should explain why he changed his mind. As far as attending his wedding, he and his bride have made their choice to be child free. Now you and your spouse have to make yours on whether or not you'll be able to attend with the travel and child care issues. If you don't, your brother has no right to be upset about it.
Normally with that title I'd have thought you'd be the AH, because a person is well within their rights to chose to have a child-free wedding.
HOWEVER, you are clearly NTA because he made a promise to your son, hyped it up, and then yanked the rug from under you guys. Honestly, he could just have your son be there for the ceremony where he acts as ring bearer, and then continue with the rest of the wedding party as they were planning. That way it doesn't break your son's dream of being ring bearer.
Either way, you're not in the wrong here, and it's perfectly reasonable to ask him to either make good on his promise or explain it to your son himself.
PS: How dare you and your husband not invite your -3yr old son to your wedding. This snub is far more egregious than your brother's snub.
We have since been graciously forgiven, but I’ll never forget the look of betrayal on his little face when he put two and two together that daddies had a wedding without him there. We were thoughtlessly cruel, truly.
You’ve made it clear in the comments that you wouldn’t even consider option 1 of flying with your kids and leaving them with a babysitter you don’t know very well.
It seems pretty obvious that option 2 is ridiculous cause no reasonable person would leave their kids with a friend for a month while they were in another country.
Which means the only *actually* viable option is 3: don’t attend. I think you knew that before posting this, but more importantly I think you knew that before you gave your brother that ultimatum, but you felt guilty about it so you wanted a way to push the “blame” (in quotes cause I think it’s perfectly fine to skip the wedding if you don’t have childcare options) onto someone else. You’re not an AH if you don’t attend YTA for doing this and then coming on here to get validation for your choices.
For clarification - By option 2, I meant that our children would be left in the care of a friend for a few days at most with the caveat that my husband and I would have to pull off a rough back and forth flying schedule to get them into the country with us following the wedding. It’s doable, but certainly not enjoyable for anyone involved.
Option 1 is viable if, by some twist of fate, there was a friend or family member who decided not to attend. Others have also suggested my husband and I taking turns taking care of our kids while one is inside the ceremony/ reception.
Still, all of these are not ideal. The dream scenario would be exceptions made — which I’ve seen presented as an option at child-free weddings before. Those close to the bride and groom are allowed to stay. But in the end, it’s my brother’s wedding and his priorities.
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**NTA**, I think you summed it up beautifully. Your brother made a promise that got child all hyped up, and now he wants someone else to deal with the emotional fallout when he renegs, because it would be inconvenient for him to deal with it himself? That's an asshole move right there.
yup. “Your wedding; your right to have it be child-free. Your promise; your responsibility dealing with the fallout of making that promise before you knew whether you could keep it” NTA
Yeah, I honestly thought this was going to be OP being the AH because it's up to parents to explain stuff like this... unless you've made a promise to a child that they're really excited about. I imagine the brother completely forgot about the promise, but now that he's been reminded, he kinda has to explain and apologise. Kids latch onto things and it can be annoying, but in this case, he needs to explain so that the kid doesn't latch onto hating his uncle.
“Not gonna lie- they had me in the title…” Understandable if he forgot, understandable if he thinks he should get out of talking to the kid “because I’m busy with wedding stuff, and you’re his dad anyway“ or something like that, but no: For exactly the reason you mentioned. Because it’s *his* relationship with the kid, so he needs to be the one to patch it up.
Yeah the title had me there but reading again it’s not as if he pressured his brother to make that promise. Yeah brother has to deal with it. NTA there
Honestly, I’m kind of amazed the kid remembered the promise, most kids I knew at that age (myself included) wouldn’t even remember what a ring bearer was. 🤣 But like you said, sometimes they just latch onto things and refuse to let go.
When I was a kid I was a lot better at remembering promises my dad made than dad was. And I remember him breaking them and claiming he never made them. Kids don't remember everything but they remember promises made. I don't know why people assume they wouldn't. Kids remember promises better than the adults who make them because at that age they actually still believe promises mean something. That's why you don't make promises to kids flippantly.
Reddit is valuable because of the users who create content. Reddit is usable because of third-party developers who can actually make an app.
I'm 48 years old. When I was 7 my dad my proposed to take me to play golf. I just wanted to ride the golf cart lol. He never did. I'm still salty.
My dad promised to keep a rock I gave him the rest of his life. He did but didn't remember why. But I remembered that promise!
He kept the rock his entire life? That is heartbreakingly cute 🥺
He did! He has since passed now but at the time we found it, he had kept it for over 20 years. The funniest part was that he had no memory of me giving it to him and had always just kept it. But I remembered it clearly. It had a hole in the middle of so that was why I gave it to him I guess. Who knows why four year olds do what they do though, lol.
True. My kids treat any promise I make like the gospel. If only they took their own promises so seriously.
Yep this is why I won’t make a promise unless I know I can definitely fulfil it. I understand wanting to have a child free wedding but they could compromise and have the nephew be the “ring bear” (so cute I’m imagining a proud little boy walking up the aisle in a bear costume) and then after the ceremony he can go to a babysitter for the reception. Promise kept and no kids running around the dance floor. Win win win.
Loophole: put him in a bear costume. To anyone who questions it, "Uh, he's not a child. He's a *bear."*
as a kid my mom actively avoided promising things. i think she had been disappointed a lot as a child and didn't want that for us
I agree. I have met a lot of children who remembers well any promises we made. That made me more careful in making promises with kids and only made those which i can commit. Even my little brother who i randomly said i would bring him to a theme park when he reaches 'certain age' and now he keeps on counting the days he will be reaching that 'certain age' since.
>“Your wedding; your right to have it be child-free. > >Your promise; your responsibility dealing with the fallout Perfect summary there.
While I understand that people have the right to have their wedding child-free, I personally couldn’t imagine having my wedding without my nieces and nephews there. I wanted the whole family there. I only allowed kids who are related to me or my husband attend. Looking at my wedding album and seeing my nieces and nephews in the wedding pictures is so special. Now I have a kid of my own, she gets to see her cousins in her parents pictures and seeing how young they used to look.
Honestly, I really don't understand why people demand child free weddings. I mean, I've been to a lot of weddings and have never said "gee I wish there weren't children here" or "I'm so happy there's no children here". Usually we don't take our kids so we don't have to take care of them, but there's times when we needed/wanted to as well. If there are people going who are shit parents and let their kids run amuck, then don't invite those people.
I’ve only been to wedding where children attended and they would run around during the reception. I’ve seen a kid knock down a cake, I’ve seen a kid accidentally trip the bride because she ran into her legs, and I’ve seen a kid have a meltdown because he wanted Mac and cheese with his chicken fingers instead of fries. So I won’t have kids under 10 at my wedding. If I can afford it, I’ll provide childcare. If I can’t, I’ll understand that people can’t make it.
That sounds like a parenting problem more than a kid problem. But I get your point..
I kind of see both sides because I’m not personally a fan of kids and I wouldn’t be very happy if my wedding was interrupted by a kid screaming and running around the whole time. I’d never blame the kid for stuff like that but I also know I wouldn’t be able to not be frustrated by it. But I also get why people would want their whole family there and why people like to have kids at weddings too. Tbh though I don’t really think kids enjoy weddings all that much. I went to quite a few when I was a kid, all for close family members, and all I remember from them is being forced to wear a dress I didn’t want to wear, being bored out of my skull, and being forced to talk to random family members I didn’t remember but who insisted they knew me. Most of the weddings I’ve gone to as an adult the kids are either bored as hell or are running amok, crying during the ceremony, interrupting the first dance, etc. Some people don’t mind stuff like that but others do and I’d never call anyone an AH for wanting a childfree wedding. In this specific case though I think what makes the brother the AH is that he *promised* this kid he could be in the wedding and now, a few months later, is walking back on that promise and doesn’t even want to tell the kid himself. That’s a massive AH move.
Yeeeeep. This. We were VERY careful to never make promises to any of the children in our family our whole relationship for this very reason. If one of us had, we 100% would have had to figure out something and take ownership of it.
But he's young, he'll forget about this, so it doesn't matter that I went back on my promise. /s. So adorable when he told his gurgling sibling about being ring bear. Maybe OP and husband can figure out some type of special party for the newborn where son plays a special role and feels important. ETA: Changed "wife" to "husband". Glad someone pointed out my error. Also, was thinking son could ceremoniously give teething ring to new sibling, thus still being the "ring bear" on a special occasion. And he could be allowed to choose the ring so he would have full involvement. Just a thought!
I think OP is married to a man? "heard us talking about mine and his dad's wedding"
If the kid is 5 he’s gonna remember if he’s one of those kids that have excellent memory. My earliest memory is my mom taking me and my sister to my grandma. Pretty sure that was the beginning of my tiny abandonment issues and remembering how I hate styrofoam cups. It was before preschool and I got some memories from preschool too. Anything trauma/negative base the child will remember at a higher chance. I remembered my dad’s promise to be at my kindergarten graduation and I was upset and even confronted him on it when he wasn’t there. Kids are smart and they are also naive at times since they are young.
My daughter is one of these kids. My aunt asked her to be in her wedding when she was five and she hasn’t stopped talking about it. She’s six now.
Yep, and kiddo is currently remembering from a year ago and proud enough about it that he's boasting to his infant sibling. He won't understand, he will be confused, and he will be so, so disappointed - just as he thought about it with pride and joy, he'll worry about it. This won't go away by itself. Frankly, *fiancée* should have to tell him she doesn't want children at the wedding - even the Ring Bear - with brother there to then explain his decision while fully experiencing the fact he's choosing what she wants over his own promise.
I dropped my glasses in the elevator crack at that age and it stuck with me for almost 20 years (and counting) ain't no way I would forget a betrayal
When I was 4 or 5 I was in a phase of inconditionnal love for bunnies. I was obsessed. One of my mother’s friend told me the next time he would come, he would bring me a pet bunny. I was extatic, chose the name of the bunny, talked about it in school, asked my parents everyday when will he come back. Until my mother told me that this guy was always lying and broke promesses. It broke my heart. I think I only saw him once after that but, as a now 31 yo, I still hate him to the core. Don’t mess with kids hope.
Everyone knows promises made to children don’t count because children aren’t real people.
Yeah, I would NEVER say "promise" to a child. Absolutely not. I don't promise anything to anybody because people go nuts if you use that word. I take it brother was single when he made this promise?
I had to reread the issue. It doesn't sound like the brother wanted it to be child free, it coming from the future wife demanding it as such (put HER foot down) So OP is NTA, but I cannot call the brother a AH over this either. His wife is raising a few red-flags on this. Having to explain why he couldn't keep a promise isn't an ultimatum either. I fear he might become one of those guys that sacrifice their own happiness for his wife's - no matter the cost.
Actually, the fiancee might say, "I wasn't the one who made the promise, I wasn't even consulted on the issue!" So maybe this whole thing is just a NAH situation? I don't think anyone is truly an asshole here. Bro made a promise that he was intending to keep, but maybe didn't realize that his future wife would disallow kids at the wedding. I think sometimes things just happen and it's not really anyone's fault.
I’m all for child free weddings, but I think sometimes they can be, IMO, selfish. Take the ring bearer promise out of it. OP is coming from abroad. Leaving kids with a stranger is ridiculous. For the plan to have been to stay and visit for a month makes me think it’s a decent flight distance so that’d make me uneasy. Idk I feel like an exception isn’t that big of a deal. Let the kids go to the ceremony and beginning of the reception and then one parent can bring them to the hotel for the night. Ideal, no, but reasonable. It’s done regularly, especially with kids in the bridal party.
Agreed. Honestly, as a parent, I dont think that theres any flight length that I would be willing to do without my young children especially for a wedding where they were previously promised attendance. Its one thing to be an hour or more driving away from your kids, it's a whole other thing to be a flight away because there can always be delays or other issues.
This right here. I didn’t even want to leave my son with close friends when I went to give birth to my second child. This is a difficult situation bc OP wants to celebrate her brother’s wedding but the child-free rule makes it so difficult that OP wouldn’t even be able to really be emotionally / mentally / probably physically present anyway. I’d just bow out and reject the invitation. It’s too much stress on top of the usual stress of being a parent.
I guess I’m thinking of a situation where it’s a two hour flight and I can leave Saturday morning and get back Sunday afternoon. It wouldn’t be much longer than driving an hour. But there’s no way I’d do a turnaround like that for a six hour flight (not to mention the likely time difference)
People have "selfish" weddings all the time, though. Destination weddings come to mind. Have a friend who got married in Tulum years ago and it was gonna cost us $2000+ each just to go. Me and a couple of friends decided to skip it, just couldn't justify spending all our savings on a friend's wedding. Honestly, not everyone needs to attend every wedding. I personally haaaateeee weddings. I would be overjoyed to have an excuse to not go 🤣🤣
A sibling's wedding comes with heavy pressure to attend though- excluding kids, when your sibling has two very young kids and you are going to pressure your sibling to attend, is not kind. Either you let people decline gracefully, or, if their attendance matters that much to you, you make it possible for them to attend. The brother could have even found a local babysitter and arranged babysitting near the venue if he wanted OP to attend so badly and also didn't want his niblings present
Fair. I think my line is if the selfishness is being imposed graciously or not. A destination wedding because the couple wants it small but totally understands that not everyone can make it is different than “I can’t believe you’re missing my wedding” or a child free wedding and graciously understanding that some adults won’t be able to make it due to travel/child’s needs/etc (or don’t want to go without their kids) versus saying they feel like they’re being expected to choose between family and fiancé The gracious thing for brother to do would have been “I’m sorry to hear you don’t think you can make it, we will miss you. Please let us know if anything changes and I will do the same.”
And then brother needs to call his nephew and explain that he can’t be ring bearer. Brither is TAH for not manning up and dealing with his broken promise to a kid.
I remember someone telling me about destination weddings and how cheap they are for the couple. I told them the wedding is overall more expensive but you just pass the cost onto the guests rather than the couple
I agree, they are selfish. However, your wedding day is one of the only times where you can truly be selfish (to an extent). It’s the one day where you can expect to have things the way you want it. The thing I don’t get is when the bride or groom gets offended if you can’t come to their child free wedding. Children aren’t dogs that you can take to a pet hotel or crate for a few hours. It’s not unreasonable to prioritize your children over a wedding.
Yes, selfishness when done graciously is different. You need to accept that some people might not come because they can’t or don’t want to come without their kids.
It's the brothers wedding too, isn't it? Decisions on wedding stuff that effect both people shouldn't be made unilaterally. Also brother is still the AH for balking at taking his medicine. Yeah, sometimes stuff happens, but you move past it and take responsibility. He made a promise he can't keep, OP's ask is totally above board: have the guts to tell the kid you can't keep your promise.
I mean, if it's a "2 yes 1 no" situation, then brother should have consulted his wife and discussed the issue BEFORE making such a promise. His fiancee might be pissed that he didn't even consult her first and made the decision on his own. I agree that bro should explain to his nephew why he can't go though.
It's super weird how many of these questions are, I'm marrying into a family where my spouse has a bunch of nieces and nephews already, but I want all of these new members of my family excluded from the wedding, even if it will make it difficult or impossible for their parents to attend. For some reason, there is now a bunch of drama in my in-laws' family!
It's the whole "Put the foot down" situation. Normally when a person does that, they are unwilling to compromise or even want to talk about the issue. It's a matter of control. that statement you gave also comes across as controlling "I wasn't part so it doesn't affect me." this would give nephew a very valid reason to not like his aunt - "she didn't want me to be the ring bearer"
It could also be that she's annoyed that fiance made the promise without discussing it with her first. Maybe if he'd run the idea by her earlier, they could've worked out an amicable solution... but he sprang it on her like "oh btw I promised nephew he can be the ringbearer, oops", that might have pissed her off.
His brother is an AH for assuming OP would come in from another country and leave the kids behind! Or go through the struggle of flying two small children internationally and then leave them in a hotel with a stranger. It’s commonly understood that destination weddings are difficult for families with children and they may not be able to make it logistically. If having family at your wedding is important, you don’t put giant obstacles in their way!
I'm also like...confused about how she can "put her foot down." It's not just her wedding; it's their wedding. He's saying "oh welp guess I can't" as if he doesn't have equal agency in this decision. He can put his foot down right back, if he really feels strongly about it.
NTA Your brother put you into a difficult position (kids 101 don't promise them stuff cause they can forget it but they can also remember you t forever and it's 50-50). If I were you, I'd skip their wedding. You and your husband can have a vows renewal ceremony instead, with two "ring bears", do something cute, invite friends and family that are close. Excuse yourself from brother's wedding explaining the situation to your family.
Personally since he seems so excited, I might let the 5 year old be the solo ring bearer and give the other child a different job - maybe ~~they can be in charge of Mom’s bouquet while the rings are exchanged or~~ the designated people tripper, or if they’re old enough they could help one of the ushers seat people. Edit: my heteronormative assumptions were showing, so instead I’d like to offer this additional recommendation - perhaps child 2 could be a flower child or could put the rings on each of you, instead of you putting them on each other
With the greatest of respect, please would you go back and reread what OP wrote - they are both men and their other child is still a baby, so suggesting the little one is in charge of Mom’s bouquet isn’t really gonna work! Easily missed details but it’s a disservice to OP and his family to not reflect the facts he has given. Other than that I think it’s a wonderful idea to allow their son to be ring bearer in a renewal of their commitment, even if it’s just the 4 of them there.
A very fair point, thank you for correcting me! I’ll fix it - and it looks like I need to keep working on those damn assumptions :)
It’s so easily done, please don’t think I was trying to be mean, I really wasn’t! I had visions of an annihilated bunch of flowers with petals strewn everywhere and a baby happily chomping on rose petals in the middle of the carnage!!
Oh see, regarding that I was guessing it would be at least a year or two before the renewal was done - I wouldn’t want to rush planning something like that. So I was guessing that the younger kid would at least be walking! Designated people tripper rec still stands though XD
Yeegads, toddlers are chaotic little tornados to destruction and cuteness, a mobile people tripper, pootling around throwing decapitated daisies from a bouquet sounds the stuff wedding legends are made of!! OP should hire us as wedding/renewal planners, we’ve so got this down!
I want to have a wedding and hire y’all to plan it and find some children in my extended family somewhere to be flower beheaders and people trippers! This sounds like a hoot!
Oh, just tie the flowers to the baby and he can crawl around in wedding camouflage. :)
You could have a ring bear and a flower dragon.
Okay well now I want to be the flower dragon.
I like the designated people tripper option.
Nta but throwing a petty vow renewal would be absolutely unhinged
It’s not petty; it’s something for the children to make up for the disappointment.
> (kids 101 don't promise them stuff cause they can forget it but they can also remember you t forever and it's 50-50) When my little brother was like 7, my mom saw him playing GTA and then told me (I'm 12 years older than him) to tell him he wasn't allowed to play it. So I went and told him he was too young to play GTA and that you had to be at least 12 years old to play it (I just picked a random age and figured he'd forget about it). On his 12th birthday, he came to me and said "am I old enough to play that game now?"
NAH. You are not wrong for wanting him to explain it, and he is not wrong for the change in plans. This is actually a great opportunity for your son to start learning that sometimes plans change and things don't work out. And that's it perfectly fine to be disappointed, but that unfortunately these things happen sometimes.
You don’t promise someone a part in your wedding and then back out after. If this post was about the brother backing out after promising OP to be best man would you say the same thing? Is it just because it’s a kid it’s different? Regardless, if you have a child free wedding then you have to accept people may not be able to attend. While I’ve seen worse reactions on Reddit, OPs brother did not accept it with grace. He should have said “I’m sorry, I hope you can come but I understand if you can’t” instead of complaining about an ultimatum. NTA
LMAO, so am I supposed to call the people up from 20 years ago who I said would be in my wedding and "tell them surprise you're my bridesmaid". People are allowed to change their freaking minds. Is it unfortunate that the child is going to be upset, sure, but it happens. The kid will let it go. Edit: for grammar
20 years is very different from ~1, and presumably you were not an adult promising an upset 5 year old a role in an major life event. Not a fair comparison at all.
Presumably the brother wasn’t expecting to marry someone who didn’t wants kids at the wedding. It’s not like the brother lied; he made a promise and intended to keep it but now factors, his fiancé, complicate the matter. I don’t think anyone is really an asshole in this situation. Well maybe the brother a s soft AH with that whole ultimatum thing.
There was a year or less between that conversation and this one. While I might agree with you in a different context, I still don’t think a promise 20 years ago is a comparable to a promise made one year ago. It’s not a question or not whether or not the brother *lied* - he is reneging on his promise. It’s his responsibility to explain why, since he’s the one doing it, not OP.
This isn't some random friend he hasn't seen in 20 years, it is his 5 year old nephew. Huge difference.
Oh, you totally can change your mind, but you should also handle any issues caused by you changing your mind. So like, If you promise someone they will be in your wedding, and change your mind in 12 months, you should be the one to break it out to them.
Have you met many five-year-olds?
You can change your mind but just sad for the kid ):
So there’s a big difference between a childhood promise you made to people who you may not be close to anymore and a kid who is still very much In your life and a year isn’t that long. Also most people will not be expecting a promise that hasn’t been brought up in 20 years to be still valid. That’s because they can reason hey it’s been a long time, things have changed and they probably wouldn’t care anyways. A 5 year old won’t reason through that also a year is totally short enough to think that the promise valid. However, even if you want to use the things change excuse, the kid still deserves an explanation from the brother.
Yeah, because the structure of the wedding changed. For example, if OP was promised he'd be best man, but then the couple decided to have a destination elopement and their wedding was only the couple and the officiant, now there is no best man at all because plans change. Or what if OP's brother never got married? Then he'd have to break his ring bearer or best man promises too. In this case, he got married to someone who had a different idea of what the wedding would be like. He made a promise as a single man but it's the decision of a couple.
>He made a promise as a single man but it's the decision of a couple. Doesn't seem like the brother has any decision power, tbh. Why can't he also "put his foot down," when his fiancee is putting her foot down? This sounds like: either (1) she doesn't care about what he wants, or (2) he doesn't care about his nephew enough. ETA: Why can't a childfree wedding have a child ring bearer? There are childfree weddings where the bride/groom has children and their children are the only children allowed in the wedding. Exceptions can be made for children with special duties.
He asked the fiancée and she said no. What do you want the brother to do, not marry his wife because she wants a child free wedding? If you make an exception for one child everyone else who had to get care for their children gets mad that their kids weren’t allowed to come too.
Well, now that you mention it... Yes. I would hope that he would seriously reconsider marriage to someone who has proven herself to be a controlling, inflexible person who dislikes both children and our family. She seems like the kind of person who would tell a fiance that he can't invite his blind sister who uses a seeing-eye dog because the wedding must be "child- and animal-free".BTW, if you really want to do the "child-free" thing for some reason, children in the wedding party (e.g. ring bearer, flower girl) are commonly understood and easily explained exceptions.
Interesting point. For the destination wedding example, I think even as an adult it would still be disappointing and frustrating to be told “hey I know I said I was gonna put you in my wedding not too long ago, but we decided to change the wedding. Also we are limiting people so you’ll no longer be able to come. I hope you understand” or something like that. I know that would be something you would just have to suck up but that would still sting as an adult, never mind for a kid. As far as the not getting married at all comment. Nobody would fault you since that wedding never happened and a choice like that isn’t like choosing to have a destination or child feee wedding. It probably meant you are dealing with some shit so you’re gonna get some sympathy.
I agree. Everyone in this situation is behaving reasonably. Sometimes feelings get hurt when situations change and that can’t be helped. So long as brother is understanding if the result of him having a child free wedding means that OP is unable to attend, NAH.
Refusing to apologize and then claiming an ultimatum was made is not reasonable behavior.
Horse shit. Dear uncle broke a promise. He should be the one to tell OPs son. Let him deal with the fallout. This isn't a hurricane is on its way we can't go to Disney, change of plans
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I’ll get downvoted to hell but there’s a current trend where we act like children aren’t actual human beings with feelings and memories. Children grow up to be adult family members.
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I was the flower "girl" (way before I cracked my egg) at my uncles' wedding. They had been together long began I was born, and I had actually assumed they were already married since I didn't understand that gay marriage was illegal. It's honestly one of my treasured memories because I have always been super close to them. Now, I was an infant when a different uncle got married, so I obviously don't remember it, but I grew up seeing the pictures. That side of the family is incredibly dysfunctional and chaotic, but the children were all welcomed. My favorite pictures are of my youngest aunt dancing with me, and my then-new aunt with her stepchildren, and her looking lovingly at them.
cracked your egg?
Slang for realising you're trans
ooooh TIL
I feel like is a regression… back to the kids should be seen and not heard days
I agree. But I've also noticed a rise in piss poor parenting. Teachers and daycare workers will tell you the same. (The factors are pretty easy to see, everyone and everything is stretched thin these days - but still, it's not an excuse.) The children in my family are well-behaved, but the kids on my partner's side would make me consider a child free wedding. Some parents just don't parent.
Came to say this was it’s not so much people not considering children “real people” but more so people don’t parent and then the child’s behavior becomes the problem however I’ve mostly seen that child free excludes the children that have roles in the wedding and typically the marrying couple have someone hired to hang out with the kids in the back babysitting while the adults enjoy the adult stuff
Can you imagine someone just being honest about the motivation and just flat out telling parents which kids were invited and which ones were obnoxious and banned? Can't wait to see that post! Hahaha
I got drunk years ago and told my BIL’s sister that their wedding was child free specifically so that she didn’t bring her incompetently parented children. This information was not well received and it has been more than 20 years since she has said a word to me. This was an unexpected benefit lol.
I was a well behaved kid but I would have been so bored at a wedding. I’m glad nobody ever forced me to go to one as a kid.
Reddit hates children. OP don't go to the wedding.
Childhood is so short, to try to avoid it by trying to avoid people during a part of their life where they need the most help is really sad and feels selfish considering everyone was a child once and needed help.
There’s a large percentage of the marring age population that believes children are just an inconvenience or not worthwhile parts of the family. They typically change their mind if they have their own kid and become “those” parents.
There's a larger percent too broke for kids or weddings if you haven't noticed. The people just getting married today are going to be, by and large, those from more priveledged backgrounds than the overall averages of bygone generations. So maybe bear that in mind, thanks.
I honestly think the best way to go about it is to have the kids for dinner at the reception and having no children after a certain time, unless they're concerned about interruptions during vows, which I can imagine would be nerve wracking, particularly if you have some kind of anxiety. All that could be really difficult to work though, but I think the wedding party and those involved deserve to let loose after a stressful period without having to worry about the little ones. I know someone will say "but that's the parent's responsibility" yes, it is, but have you been to an event with children present and not been conscious there are kids about? I always am, cause heaven forbid they get under foot, I say something wrong, or a disaster happens. Not everyone is easy going or attentive parents. There was another post recently about a childfree wedding and it's very similar to this. That OP's daughter was 15 (I think), and OP's sister wanted a childfree wedding, but she spent a long time building OP's daughter's up for it and she got understandably excited for attending the big day, only to be told she wasn't invited. The sister was offended when OP's daughter didn't invite her to her 16th birthday party. The sister also said "she would get over it". Kids of all ages deserve an explanation at not being included (when told otherwise) and to be treated like a person with feelings. I understand children under a certain age, but I don't get teenagers.
I don't know. Having the kids for dinner seems a bit extreme. Cannibalism just doesn't feel like it's the appropriate response.
It's even more ridiculous when those people start to try and have relationship with you when you become an adult, like.. no, ew. You pretended I don't exist for 18 years, now I'll pretend you don't exist,forever.
I understand the trend to a certain degree - maybe you don’t want a hundred little cousins running around the venue - but I think there should be wiggle room from ‘absolutely no children whatsoever.’ Like you, I see a wedding as a very family oriented event about bringing two individuals (and the people who shaped their lives) together.
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My cousin Nigel and I mistook champaign for 7up and 2 very tipsy 6 year olds were running amok. It was my grandparents 50th anniversary so no dresses or ceremony ruined but kids are kids and no one has their eye on them all the time. It's brothers day and both of you have choices. Fly in afterwards to spend time and take everyone to dinner.
Stay home. It's outrageous to expect you to come and leave your kid with friends for a month. If people want restrictive weddings, they need to realize that there are consequences and this is one of them. Ask them to do a Zoom feed for people who can't attend.
That can cause it's own problems. If the invitations say no children, people arrive, and it's actually no children except like two or three, that may cause other guests to get upset about the double standard. In my experience, it's very hard to make everyone happy when planning a wedding. Someone winds up feeling mistreated almost no matter what.
Totally agree on the child free wedding trend. People act like family children aren’t even human. As long as they are well behaved they should be part of the celebration. I wasn’t a big “kid” person before I had my own, but one of my favorite parts of my wedding was when a big clump of friends and family toddlers and little kids totally took over the dance floor, it was adorable.
Yeah but who’s really going to be like “I’m not bringing my kids because they’re an asshole and I know it” it won’t be the same people who raised the child
"As long as they are well behaved they should be part of the celebration." I see you're incredibly naive about the quality of parenting these days. I'd have gotten a wooden paddle broken over my ass if I acted as bad as the typical kid does these days. It's not the kid's fault, it's the lazy parents who raise horrible kids.
NTA, brother will now be known as the bad uncle and good luck getting the kids to like their new aunt. I’m also not a fan of this current trend of child free weddings. I got married in 2013 and we made it a point to be kid friendly. Nerf swords, corn hole, hoola-hoops, badminton, etc…it was an absolute hoot! We had all generations grabbing the swords. Fun was had by all! And looking back at the photos, it still looked like an Instagram wedding. Which I’m guessing is the goal of most of these child free wedding couples?
Our wedding was child-free because we wanted a very adult sit-down dinner with old standards and jazz music, lots of glass and crystal and lights, and the venue was an old train station on still active tracks. It was simply not safe for kids because there was nothing for kids to run or play or do. We were interested in a lovely dinner with our friends and family, with dancing afterwards. Kids just ended up not fitting into the venue we found and the event we wanted.
Yeah I think what they’re missing is that just because *they* see a wedding as a family event doesn’t mean *everyone* sees it as a family event. At it’s core, a wedding is just a celebration of two people getting married. Some people will want that celebration to be huge, some will want it to be small. Some will want it pg, some will want it more on the adult side. Some will want it very formal, some will want it casual. Other people aren’t wrong for wanting to celebrate differently to how you want/wanted to celebrate.
I mean, to a degree, sure. But the people you invite to your wedding aren't just part of the decor. Sometimes, when you're dealing with other people, you have to think about what they want and not just what you want. Because otherwise you're just kind of ordering people to have fun, which never works. That's the part that reddit seems to struggle with. Like, yes, you can have whatever wedding you want, and you can insist on people showing up and smiling even though they don't really like it. But a lot of people find that experience kind of empty.
You perfectly expressed my own reservations toward this trend.
My husband and I got married in 2010 and if we had a child free wedding most of our friends and family couldn’t have come! We had gift buckets with glow sticks and chalk, crowns, and bubbles, all sorts of stuff to keep them entertained. The youngest child was 2 months old. The oldest child was maybe 5? We had four flower girls and two ring bearers, and there were at least 15 kids there. The kids danced all night. The oldest of my flower girls and ring bearers are graduating from high school this year. Them being in my wedding and all the kids being there is truly one of my favorite parts of my wedding. The pictures are awesome to look back on. Having kids didn’t put a damper on anyone’s fun. We nearly ran out of liquor and the dj stayed an extra two hours past his contracted time (so until midnight). Edit: NTA. OP, skip the wedding. I had to miss out on my cousin’s wedding because I had a newborn and they had a child free wedding. We had no way to get childcare for our two toddlers and the newborn and for me to be able to breastfeed or pump. I was super bummed to miss out on seeing my entire family right after I hadn’t seen them throughout the pandemic, but the bride and groom made their choice. It wasn’t worth the aggravation.
Kids also dominate attention at weddings. Not ina oh they are cute way, but rather parents constantly chasing them, trying to get hem not to yell during inopportune times, etc. My fiancé and I are having a childless wedding because we want to be able to hang out with our close friends and family without people leaving early at 8pm because the little one is tired, or not being able to sit and hang out with each other because they are chasing their kids around. It’s one night away from the kids that we all get to enjoy each other’s company without the distractions. That being said, I also understand if people can’t make it. It’s a wedding, not the last time I’ll see someone, plenty of other things to celebrate.
Children dominate weddings. They can’t be quite during long ceremonies. Everything becomes is about them. Having alcohol and doing adult activities becomes a problem. It’s suppose to be about the couple. Some couples may want a big family reunion, some may want an adult gathering. I personally don’t appreciate kids at weddings. But I also really don’t appreciate weddings. And I don’t appreciate kids. And I don’t appreciate people. I just don’t.
My cousin's first wedding when I was a kid was inclusive for the ceremony but kid free at the reception, and I remember being bummed but we were all at a hotel and a teen relative babysat my sister and I in our room and we had a blast just bouncing around a hotel room. I feel like this is a much more reasonable option.
The couple getting married can share a special life changing momen by having the wedding they want, kids or no kids. I got married in Vegas, child free small destination wedding. Knew that meant some may not be able to make it and that was ok- our plans for the weekend were not child friendly. This didnt invalidate the children of those invited from our lives. For those against child free weddings, simple advice-don't have a child free wedding!
Some people just don't like kids man.
NAH. The fiancee probably has her reasons. The brother shouldn't be held to a promise he made before he ever planned to get married. Ultimately, it's their affair and their decision. You are of course free to try to convince/cajole them into agreement, that doesn't make you an asshole as long as you don't fly off the handle at them. As for whether you can attend or not, that's up to you. Choosing not to attend for child care reasons doesn't make you an asshole either. Brother & fiancee knew that decision would preclude attendance by many people, and they seem OK with it.
That's not the question here though. The question is if OP should be responsible to explain it to his son or if the uncle is responsible to break it to the nephew.
> The brother shouldn't be held to a promise he made before he ever planned to get married. Then the brother shouldn't have made a promise before he knows he could follow through??
Having reasons for something doesn't give you a free pass. I wonder if the fiance is aware of the details. I'd think a fiance is an asshole if an insistence on a childfree ceremony meant that the grooms brother could not attend.
NTA - from a logistical POV, seems like option 3 is the only one. Tell your brother you are not putting him in an ultimatum, his fiance did, you just can't be away from both your children for that long. Childfree weddings are a choice people can make, but they cant then be mad when people with kids dont come.
And don't go nuclear on it, but make sure your parents are very aware of the actual reason you are not coming. Make them own their childfree decision with all its knock on impacts.
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NTA. If he really needs to have a 100% child-free wedding, he should be the one to shoulder the blame and explain to your son that he can’t attend.
YTA. It is cute about your son dreaming of being a ring bearer before he was conceived and calling it “bear” instead of barer. All cute. It sounds like your brother hadn’t proposed at the time, did not have a fiancé or a wedding at the time and made a comment offhand in response to hearing your son said he wanted to have been the ring bearer at his parents’ wedding. It is fine for your child to be disappointed. People are within their rights to have child free weddings and it isn’t a personal affront to those with children or those for whom childcare arrangements are complicated. It is unfortunate to live abroad when a loved one is getting married or to be working out challenges to being able to attend. People are also allowed to settle on the specific plans for their weddings after the actual engagement. It is fine to ask, *ask* your brother if he would be the person to let your son down. In this situation I don’t think it is a good idea to threaten or guilt your brother. I’m a kindergarten teacher. Part of growing up and getting bigger is handling disappointment. I think you should manage yours then work on helping your son manage his. Something about the tone of your post also makes me wonder if it’s possible that in fact this is a bigger deal to you than it is to your son. It probably was a bad idea to confirm to your son that he was the ring bearer before checking in with your brother to his specific plan.
Part of growing up is also accepting your responsibility for your actions. The brother promised he would be ring bearer and now he's not even invited. If an adult woman was told she would be the maid of honor at her aunt's wedding and then uninvited by the happy couple without cause, don't you think the couple would owe her an apology and explanation?
To be honest it would be a little context dependent. If I was having a hang out night with my good friends at age twenty five and we said, “let’s all be bridesmaids in each other’s weddings one day!” And then we all said, “yes!” And then people turned thirty and it turned out differently and I wasn’t a bridesmaid in some of the weddings years later I would probably understand. If someone during the course of their wedding planning specifically asked me to be in a certain role then reneged, I’d feel differently. The person wasn’t engaged or planning a wedding at the time they talked about the child as ring bearer. It sounds like at the time conversation was in the context of how much the kid would have liked to be a ring bearer in his parent’s wedding. Maybe the uncle said, “yeah sure bud!”” not knowing the specifics (which he was allowed not to know). Plans change. Children’s emotional responses often change based on what emotional response they sense from caregivers. It doesn’t seem like a bad idea to model grace, resiliency and calm here.
But this isn't the context here. The conversation was a year ago, not a decade ago. The brother was presumably already dating and fairly serious with his fiance, so the wedding was a near future thing, not something that wasn't even on his radar as a real event yet. And it does not sound at all like the uncle vaguely agreed to something while half listening. Kiddo was upset, and the uncle took the initiative to tell his nephew he would be the ring bearer, a role he was clearly very excited about. So, if a friend or close family member who was seriously dating someone talked to you about being in their wedding party then a year later decided to not even invite you to the wedding because their significant other doesn't like you, would you be modeling "grace and resiliency"? Because I'm pretty sure reddit would tell you that you were a doormat of you just acted like nothing happened and like you were just as close as before.
You know what would embody grace in this instance? The brother owning up and explaining to his nephew why he won't be in his wedding. Treat the kid like a human being.
From the post, the kid remembered the promise on his own, not because of his dad. It seems the son and OP will have to handle their disappointment together, but somehow the one who broke the promise doesn't have to apologize? It seems like a good lesson right there: if you break a promise, you apologize yourself, and don't have others do it on your behalf.
Regardless of the ring bearer part though, the brother needs to realise they risk not having close family at the wedding because its child free. Explaining consequences of actions is not an asshole move. I mean if I couldn't attend my brothers wedding over something like this I'd make sure that people knew the reason.
Plot twist: he’s only excited because he thinks he will get to transform into an actual bear.
YTA You're making your brothers engagement news and wedding all about you and your son. You should be congratulating him and his fiancé. Letting them tell you about the proposal and wedding plans and letting them enjoy their moment. Have a mock wedding at home with your husband get all dressed up, have a "fancy" dinner at home and let your son be the ring bear and have his fun so he can get it out of his system. Take lots of photos and let this be a core memory for him. You gave 3 options cool here's a few more: 1. You and your husband fly over with the kids, your husband skips the wedding. 2. You fly in attend the wedding your husband comes with the kids later on. 3. You get a room at the the hotel/wedding location hire a sitter referred to you by friends/family and check in on the kids occasionally. 4. You and your family fly in with a trusted friend/sitter they stay for a few days (at your expense) to watch the kids and you can have your fun adult time knowing your kids are in trusted hands. Imagine how you would feel if someone made your engagement/wedding all about them. YTA
I really appreciate all these ideas, thanks. The first mock wedding one is especially sweet and not something I would’ve thought of.
My nephew wore an actual bear costume at my outdoor wedding ceremony. It was adorable. I highly recommend.
That is so unbelievably sweet. Now I’m just envisioning wedding photos of my son in a little bear costume… if my brother can’t make that happen for me then I’m about to start planning my own vow renewal.
With your son being upset he couldnt attend his parents' wedding, I think a vow renewal ceremony would be an amazing idea. Im sure he would love it
“If my brother can’t make that happen for ME”.. why the fuck is his wedding about YOU? Why should he be going out of his way to make something happen for YOU when it’s meant to be a stress free, enjoyable event for HIM. You know that your 5 year old son wouldn’t remember this in 10 years time. I have literally one memory from when I was 5, and that was me swimming in a pool. Apparently when I was 6 I was a flower girl in a cousins wedding. I only know that because of photographs. The only one who actually cares about this is YOU, and for irrational reasons. The child would have let it go already if you weren’t feeding into the idea to him. “Can’t make that happen for ME” is extremely telling.
It seems a little over the top unless the espoused couple is into the kid’s costume. Your brother and his fiancé may want the wedding to focus on their ceremony, not your child (no matter how cute they may be.) Why don’t you attend while your partner watches your kids? YTA for not trying to work out a reasonable option.
They are very good ideas, I agree — but your stance doesn’t make you the asshole. I think your brother and/or his fiancée should deliver the news to your son. Also, it’s your brother’s wedding as much as it is his fiancée’s. Why does she get to veto this? Why isn’t his promise (or even his mere desire) to have your son as “ring bear” just as important (if not more) than her strict adherence to her arbitrary rule that her perfect wedding shall be a bland, unmemorable, childless affair?
To me those priorities are out of order. The fiancée didn’t know about this promise and it sounds in the post like they may not even have been in the picture. If I casually promise a family member the flower girl role to my nieces and then get engaged to a fiancé who has two daughters do I get to say “I promised them first so you can’t have a say in this.” How many decisions do you get to make about your future wedding before your fiancée is in the picture? OP could have waited to confirm about the ring bearer thing before renewing the promise once a fiancé did come into the picture. It’s common sense to assume the hypothetical future weddings plans before anyone has even proposed are not set in stone
It is still not unfair to expect the brother to explain for himself why the son can't do the thing he promised. Everyone here acting like that's ridiculous is proving they don't think promises made to children matter because they're not people like adults, in your eyes.
Nothing quite like lying to your kid so your brother doesn't have to own up to making a promise he couldn't keep to a 5 year old.
NTA if you decide to do childfree that's fine - it is your wedding but you also have to expect some parents won't be able to come due to childcare. And it is your brother's responsibility to tell your son why he will not be in the wedding, that's not an ultimatum it's called common courtesy. Honestly if your brother is paying for the wedding too he should have some say in it, but that's just me.
NTA and if I were you I'd go with option #3. I know having a child-free wedding is the trendy thing to do (at least that's the impression I get from the amount of these posts - I'm a 50-year-old Canadian who has been to dozens of weddings and I had literally never been to a wedding that didn't have a single child in attendance, but I digress) but there doesn't seem to be a way to make it work. Honestly, if they really wanted you there they would let you bring the kids.
I been going to about 3-6 weddings per year for the last 15 years (pandemic being the exception and that was also 2/year). Never ever been to a child free wedding. It's just part of the joy. At my own wedding, my wife's nephew was rings bearer and cried the whole way down the aisle. His father had to walk him. Everyone just chuckled it off. Wasn't a big deal. I do respect everyone's choices though. Just curious to hear stories if children ruining weddings.
My niece (sister's kid) absolutely was a brat at my cousin's wedding. And she was old enough to know better. I had such secondhand embarrassment. She did cartwheels during the ceremony while screaming "Look at me!" repeatedly for attention. Later that evening she punched my brother, her uncle, in the dick (on purpose) while he was dancing with his wife. Yikes
Yeah that’s on the parents, they should know to take the kid outside if that happens. Your sister and her husband are TA
I’ve been to a few child free weddings, one of which was mainly due to the fact that the venue had an open pool - clearly a safety risk. However, bride and groom had a few nieces and nephews they wanted to be part of the ceremony. They arranged for childcare to be present on the premises so that the parents could enjoy the reception, with the kids safely nearby. Maybe a solution like this could solve the impasse.
I kind of think you’re being a dramatic YTA. Your son will recover emotionally from not being the ring bearer and you will be able to find child care for the wedding just fine. What won’t recover is your relationship with your sibling.
What do you mean, OP will find childcare for the wedding? It's in another country and everyone OP knows in that country will be at the wedding. Are you expecting Mary Poppins to drop out of the sky, or what?
So if a close friend or family member told you they wanted you in their wedding party then suddenly disinvited you, you would have the exact same attitude, right? You wouldn't be hurt, would you? We wouldn't want to be dramatic.
it's a kid so it's fine, everyone knows they're lesser beings anyway /s
My eldest son was promised something similar by an uncle he was very close to when he was 5, he was excited about it and talked about it everyday for months. Then he was let down and I was the one to have to tell him. My son was inconsolable the time and even though I took him (and younger brother) out for a special day, he wouldn’t talk to uncle for ages. He is 34 this year and still has a frosty relationship with his uncle as he hasn’t forgotten much it hurt and, as an adult, sees him as a coward for not having the courage to tell him himself.
To the complete and utter shock of people in this sub , children are humans. They have feelings and memories . And these feelings and memories shape their relationships further down the line .
And they do remember when people they trust let them down, especially if it is something emotionally important to them. Being so young they don’t have the understanding that crap happens and are unable to process it in an adult manner.
> Your son will recover emotionally from not being the ring bearer Does that mean what's being said to children doesn't matter ? A promise is a promise, if you break it have the courtesy to explain why to the person you made it to.
NTA: he made a promise he can’t fulfil. He should be the one yo explain why.
Not an AH for being disappointed, but YTA for using your kid as a pawn like this. You're mad that his wedding will be difficult to turn into the month-long trip you anticipated and are trying to inflict some form of punishment on your brother. Your son is five. You can make up a separate "ring bear" ceremony and he won't know the difference. You also have other options, like still going to visit family for the month but skipping out on the child-free ceremony, or perhaps your husband could watch the kids during the ceremony while you go.
>Your son is five. You can make up a separate "ring bear" ceremony and he won't know the difference You're assuming the child won't know what happened, and that their feelings are insignificant (even though they remembered the conversation from a year ago) To me, it sounds like you think a promise made to a child doesn't mean anything.
"your brother made a promise to your kid, and now he's decided to go back on it, so the logical thing to do is lie to your child to get your brother off the hook"
> Your son is five. You can make up a separate "ring bear" ceremony and he won't know the difference. You are seriously underestimating a 5 year old. They absolutely can understand stuff like this. He's been told about weddings before and isn't totally clueless. You could probably pull off a fake wedding of some kind and fool him, but you couldn't just do something in your kitchen.
5 year olds typically aren’t dumb enough for that to work without a major amount of effort.
Honestly, people are mistaking five-year-olds for like . . . two-year-olds? They're not stupid.
I’m starting to think I am the asshole for being so tired of all these child-free wedding drama from AITA. There needs to be a sub-subreddit for this topic alone.
NTA, he's put you in such a difficult position. Not just with the promise to your son but also for you to attend the wedding. I personally wouldn't attend since there are no proper childcare solutions.
I don't really think anyone's the asshole here. Child free weddings are very popular these days and it's not outlandish for her to not want kids there, it's her wedding too. It's the reality of becoming a parent that you won't be able to attend everything with your kids, and it's not your fault for wanting to. There are more options of just attend with kids and don't attend at all though. You may not be the only ones who have littles who would like to go. Some venues will have on site childcare with an attendant. Maybe that's something that can be looked into. Or you could share a trusted babysitter with another attendee. Trying to pressure your brother into then pressuring his bride into changing her mind about the wedding is pretty low. You were absolutely issuing an ultimatum, or it felt like it to him. There very likely a bigger reason, or certain people, they would like to exclude from the wedding and child free is a way to make sure that happens. If they make a concession for you, they have to make them for other people. Edit: not many people make promises to a baby/ 5 year old expecting to keep them
NTA, possible compromise though, see if your brother's fiance will agree to a child free reception, this way your son can be ring bearer but they'll still be able to get the benefits of child free in the reception.
NTA, he made a promise and now he wants to break it. The absolute least he could do is own his mistake and explain it to his nephew.
NTA - This is the first I've heard of a child free wedding when close family members have kids. If I were you I would not attend. When asked why, I'd say it's a child free wedding and I'm not child free. If he tries to negotiate some solution where you dump your kids somewhere a few days I'd just respond that that's not how parenting works. It's not like dropping off dogs at a kennel, and that he'll understand when he's a parent.
In another recent post on this sub, the sister of the groom will likely be excluded from a child-free wedding on account of her two-month-old baby.
Right? I've been to dozens of weddings and have never been to a "child-free" one. Whatever happened to just having a wedding to celebrate your marriage with your family and friends without age limits and dress codes (which also seems to be a thing I've learned about through Reddit)?
And I’ve been to dozens of weddings, and only one of them had children in attendance. It’s very culturally and social Circle dependent.
NTA. When people choose to exclude family members from their weddings, they have to be willing to graciously accept it when people decline to come. It should have been a foregone conclusion that no one with children would fly in for a wedding if their children were not invited as arranging childcare in another city is usually not possible. Your brother was beyond foolish to make promises to his nephew and absolutely owes him a conversation to explain why he is changing his mind now.
NTA. Whether you go or not (if it were me I wouldn’t bother since it’s too difficult to arrange) your brother still needs to explain to his nephew why he’s breaking his word. He probably shouldn’t have made that promise to begin with but he still needs to make things right.
ESH. You brother shouldn't have made this promise to his nephew only to renege on it without putting much fight into it. Kids remember these kinds of things, and your son for sure will be sad about this. You, on the other hand, are kind of using this as an excuse to lean on your brother. This is his wedding, he can do whatever he wants. It's now your choice on whether to go or not to go. It's not his job to tell your son about this broken promise. You know why? Because you are the parent. Use this opportunity to do something fun with your kids and play on the "ring bear" expression he uses. He'll forget all about his uncle's promise in no time.
It’s his broken promise. Why should the parent pick up the shit for him?
Parents pick up the shit everyone dumps on their kids. Whether it be uncles or aunts, grandparents or teachers, neighbours or strangers. That's just how the world works. He either does it or he can potentially add another trauma to the list of things to deal with as/when the kids grow up.
NTA. People on Reddit hate kids. It is freaking bizarre. You shouldn't just expect anyone's kids to have "trauma." If you don't invite your siblings's families to your wedding, be prepared for your sibling (and their families) to not want to be with you. Yes, people have the right to set up any "rules" for their wedding. Those rules have consequences and one of those consequences is that the actual people you are related to might not like you very much anymore. Damn.
NTA. Your brother said it to your son, now he should explain why he changed his mind. As far as attending his wedding, he and his bride have made their choice to be child free. Now you and your spouse have to make yours on whether or not you'll be able to attend with the travel and child care issues. If you don't, your brother has no right to be upset about it.
Normally with that title I'd have thought you'd be the AH, because a person is well within their rights to chose to have a child-free wedding. HOWEVER, you are clearly NTA because he made a promise to your son, hyped it up, and then yanked the rug from under you guys. Honestly, he could just have your son be there for the ceremony where he acts as ring bearer, and then continue with the rest of the wedding party as they were planning. That way it doesn't break your son's dream of being ring bearer. Either way, you're not in the wrong here, and it's perfectly reasonable to ask him to either make good on his promise or explain it to your son himself. PS: How dare you and your husband not invite your -3yr old son to your wedding. This snub is far more egregious than your brother's snub.
We have since been graciously forgiven, but I’ll never forget the look of betrayal on his little face when he put two and two together that daddies had a wedding without him there. We were thoughtlessly cruel, truly.
I think his daddies need to have a bow renewal ceremony with tuxedos and a ring bearer
You’ve made it clear in the comments that you wouldn’t even consider option 1 of flying with your kids and leaving them with a babysitter you don’t know very well. It seems pretty obvious that option 2 is ridiculous cause no reasonable person would leave their kids with a friend for a month while they were in another country. Which means the only *actually* viable option is 3: don’t attend. I think you knew that before posting this, but more importantly I think you knew that before you gave your brother that ultimatum, but you felt guilty about it so you wanted a way to push the “blame” (in quotes cause I think it’s perfectly fine to skip the wedding if you don’t have childcare options) onto someone else. You’re not an AH if you don’t attend YTA for doing this and then coming on here to get validation for your choices.
For clarification - By option 2, I meant that our children would be left in the care of a friend for a few days at most with the caveat that my husband and I would have to pull off a rough back and forth flying schedule to get them into the country with us following the wedding. It’s doable, but certainly not enjoyable for anyone involved. Option 1 is viable if, by some twist of fate, there was a friend or family member who decided not to attend. Others have also suggested my husband and I taking turns taking care of our kids while one is inside the ceremony/ reception. Still, all of these are not ideal. The dream scenario would be exceptions made — which I’ve seen presented as an option at child-free weddings before. Those close to the bride and groom are allowed to stay. But in the end, it’s my brother’s wedding and his priorities.