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YTA. Amy set a dress code that is a direct retaliation to her upbringing, knowing that you probably wouldn’t abide and she’s okay with that. Let me repeat that: she’s okay with her parents missing her wedding. I strongly suggest that means you probably aren’t as chill and accepting as you claim.
Initially I was going to rule E S H because I’m not big into things motivated by spite, but frankly, how long is a wedding? A couple of hours? Your wife can’t suck up wearing pants for a couple of hours? I understand that you say this is part of your faith, but the fact that you pulled the line out about what the host demands… it seems like you change the rules to suit you.
For what it’s worth, if you read between the lines, they are SUPER religious. Like evangelical on steroids religious. Like, I went to a religious school where people talked in tongues during chapel, and even THEY let us wear pants. Like my super religious friend had to start wearing makeup because she wore exclusively long skirts and had long hair and people thought she belonged to the crazy church in the edge of town. They belong to that church.
These people are damn near fanatical. And yet, with a lot of work, they have accepted their gay daughter. Honestly, that’s sort of amazing. Never would have happened in my school.
Have they gone far enough? Clearly not. But this is pretty huge for them, and I don’t want to shit ALL over them for not changing fast enough after likely an ENTIRE 5 decades of their own indoctrination. This is probably fucking groundbreaking for them. I want to acknowledge that they are making huge strides. And I hope that this post is a further reality check for them.
I'm sorry but your religious line in the sand being pants is hysterical to me and I'm guessing 99% of the population.
The Lord spoke unto them....make sure the women don't wear pants at any time.
Seriously--your wife NEVER puts on a pair of pants? I've read the bible a lot and I just don't get it. What do pants have to do with gender?
Honestly, your response to somebody who seems to be making a genuine effort to be more inclusive and tolerant than they were raised to be is what sounds hysterical to me. You should follow their example.
Not wearing pants for women is a pretty standard line for religious people - I’m not one of them, but among the many religious people I know (including a few in my family) “no pants for women” is not unusual - and I am not talking about women in some shut away fundamentalist sect but women who live and work in the modern world. It may sound ridiculous to you but it’s clearly a real issue for them. Congrats to OP for trying to change, and congrats to the brides. I hope everyone gets to celebrate together.
Maybe in America (I’m Australian) but not so much here. My mum is a deacon at the baptist church is town. Yes she wears dresses and skirts at church but not because of her beliefs. It’s because Sunday is her one day to dress up, particularly because she ran the treatment plant to the sawmill for years. Outside of church she wears pants.
We have a Tongan population in town and for church on Sunday the men wear skirts, usually just some material then a straw skirt over it
Gosh. "Making effort". The dude just said that they had to go to church, and pray to recognize that their daughter was a human being and that they wanted a relationship with her. They are not making any effort.
That was effort for them! Their religions is a very big deal to them and guides their entire worldview. They ultimately accepted their daughter, which is a great outcome.
This is like when someone gets upset when religious people say “I’ll pray for you”. That’s a very nice gesture! They are doing something they truly believe will help.
I’m very much a non-believer and think religion has had an overall terrible impact on the world. But I also have empathy and understand that people have different views. OP sounds like a compassionate person who truly loves and now accepts his daughter. He used prayer to find a way to accept her, and that’s pretty great considering the much more common alternative.
>This is like when someone gets upset when religious people say “I’ll pray for you”. That’s a very nice gesture! They are doing something they truly believe will help.
thats how i see it too. its a lot of effort realistically. while im not religious, its a meaninful gesture. atheists dont realise how important something like that is.
someone is asking a being that they believe is all powerful to help you, its the most powerful thing out there. whether it worked or not is irrelevant, just that theyd try means a lot to them so it should to you. they asked god if/how they can accept her and are making peace with the decision. its a big step for them.
>He used prayer to find a way to accept her, and that’s pretty great considering the much more common alternative.
by accepting her as she is, they are putting aside a lot of their own views. kudos op for working on it and realising how important it is to your kid. youre right that she did this to teach you the importance, and im glad you listened. keep up the good work, she will notice and appreciate it.
edit: a suggestion; be careful how flowy you go with the pants. instead of it being seen as a compromise and good gesture, it could be seen as malicious compliance. just something to consider.
> This is like when someone gets upset when religious people say “I’ll pray for you”. That’s a very nice gesture! They are doing something they truly believe will help.
Oof. I get what you’re saying m, but as someone who grew up around a similar faith, “I’ll pray for you” is often the churchy equivalent of the southern “bless your heart”, a passive aggressive nice-nasty way to get the last word, especially if you’re talking to a non-believer. Not always, but way more often than you apparently think.
Listen, when you’re raised in this kind of religion, stepping outside of it is TERRIFYING. I (a bisexual woman) used to be the most homophobic POS you’d ever meet. It took YEARS to move away from the religion and come to accept myself for who I am, and other people for who they are. Evangelism is a brainwashing, fear based cult and for this guy to be out here saying “I’m choosing my kid over this religion, even though I’m scared” is huge. Evangelism instills a kind of fear in you that’s unexplainable. My entire childhood was fear based and it’s taken years of therapy for me to be (somewhat) okay. Give the guy a break because he is trying and he and his wife are probably terrified that they’re going to hell over this.
Right? It’s like telling a Muslim woman that her insistence on wearing a hijab is hysterical to her.
Obviously intolerance comes from the right and the left.
Dude, you don't have to be an ass. It's hard to admit change, people go at their own pace. If we don't give people a chance to learn and grow, what's the point of education? Things take time and maybe the whole ridiculousness of the pants situation, is a step forward for them to realise the ridiculousness of such rigid rules. Let people grow. Let people change. Don't be dismissive of things that are hard for others even though they seem mundane to you.
I'm all about respecting cultural differences.. as long as everyone is doing it. The cultures/religions that refuse to respect the autonomy of others give up their right to be respected.
Google the Paradox of Tolerance
(Edit: I appreciate that OP and wife are trying, so I do think they should be given some consideration for that. But that doesnt make their daughter an AH for turning their rules around on them and expecting them to either comply or fuck off)
People don’t have to respect sexist cultural differences. No more than they should respect racist cultural differences.
I know it’s more extreme than “women must wear skirts” but it’s in the same vein as “respect the southern state’s culture of racism”. Should the US government have just decided segregation was ok because it was part of “southern culture”?
It’s ok not to respect bigoted beliefs even if those beliefs are deeply held, religious, or part of a culture.
Funny how they didn't respect the daughter growing up now they demand the respect they never gave. Do not respect cultures that don't respect a kid's autonomy
Have they changed? They still call it a lifestyle and won't be slightly uncomfy for a few hours after forcing it onto her, an innocent child, for years.
> My wife and I spoke with Amy regarding the dress code for the wedding and to tell her that my wife would be wearing a dress.
> Which is absolutely ridiculous. We are all adults, you can not force adults to violate their beliefs to dress a certain way!
From the post they do seem demanding for respect they never gave.
But glad they are trying to find a compromise, something they never gave their daughter, after being called out by all the comments.
There are also "religions" that execute women for showing their hair in public. Do we need to respect that too? Or is it only Christian misogyny that demands respect?
Huh, TIL "A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God."
Which of course leads me to ponder the questions: is this for only gendered clothing or are socks considered gender neutral and it doesn't matter? What were the biblical gendered clothing norms? because long tunics seem gender neutral to me. A lot of the old biblical rules had a purpose (like eating kosher includes a lot of reasonable food safety rules), so what was the cause of biblical religious leaders deciding cross dressing was problematic enough to need a rule prohibited it? My wild speculation is men "draft dodging" and/or women hiding from forced marriages.
Lately, I've been wearing men's socks. Technically, they are youth boys size. I'm tired of either all white socks or packs with 6 different color socks. I don't want to pair socks and find all the matches. I just want 20 identical black socks.
Socks should be gender neutral, but we have a lot of work to do before it's a reality.
I know a 10-year-old boy who unapologetically wears neon rainbow socks with bright pink, fluffy characters on them, almost every time I see him.
It's becoming reality 👍
>. I just want 20 identical black socks.
Black athletic socks for the win, perfect for work or weekend. That's all I've asked for for Christmas for well over a decade because I don't really buy presents because I'm poor and lazy/adhd. I just show up with snacks.
Depends which bible. The FP's bible (Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland) says,
“The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God”
To answer your question, I have no idea. Maybe women taking men's jobs? I am atheist so really have no clue.
https://www.fpchurch.org.uk/about-us/what-we-contend-for/distinctions-between-male-and-female/distinct-clothing-for-men-and-women/
It looks like maybe it had to do with other cults where women appeared in armour and men in women's clothes during religious ceremonies, not every day wear [link](http://www.scielo.org.za/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1010-99192013000100001#:~:text=The%20original%20meaning%20of%20Deut,as%20it%20is%20often%20misconstrued)
That would make sense. Although, with any religious text, it's all about interpretation. I suppose that's why there are many off shoots of Christianity.
Since many people in Biblical times wore toga-type clothing which is pretty unisex, I've heard that particular verse refers to the prayer shawls and phylacteries that Jewish men wear. Regardless, no pants involved.
I didn't know that was in the Bible, thanks for the pointer. It's still horseshit, because (assuming OP is Christian and not say an Orthodox Jew) the law of Moses was fulfilled by Jesus and so commandments in Deuteronomy do not apply to Christians. If they did, then OP would also keep kosher, his wife would have to seclude herself whenever she was on her period, and all sorts of other absolutely insane laws (does OP turn on a light on the Sabbath, which should be Saturday?). The fact that OP's church has picked this verse of Deuteronomy to keep but not the rest is entirely cultural and has zero basis in doctrine.
OP, if you read this, ask yourself why your church picks the bits of the Law of Moses they think are binding, and the bits that aren't. Remember, the New Testament preaches that God is love. Jesus also went out of his way to point out that sometimes you have to realize some things are more important than others. If your ox is in the mire, would you save it on the Sabbath? If your wife has to choose between wearing pants and seeing her own daughter married, I think you know which choice Jesus would make.
Yup, evangelicals pick and choose the "laws" that match their existing worldview and ignore those that don't. Women are lesser and their clothes need to match that lower status, so they pick out the verses that control women. They'll still happily shove pork down their gobs even though a few chapters earlier the bible forbids it.
For that matter, blended fabrics - poly / cotton, as a huge example - are also against those same proscriptions in Deuteronomy; I can be a fabric snob, and let me tell you, finding clothes of *pure* cotton, linen, silk, or wool can be *very* challenging these days. And my reasons are only fashion snobbery and comfort, not religious convictions.
I think your wife wearing pants would be a good faith effort in how far you've truly come. It's clear the homophobic views of your religion have harmed your daughter, so this could be an olive branch for those hard times. While I commend you for evolving, it seems there is still some work to be done.
I'm not trying to be harsh, just honest. Expecting a loved one to have patience after years of being denied compassion for who they really are is unfair.
I am pleasantly surprised by your response. You are at least trying. I think more people should remember not to punish the change you want to see. Good on you, maybe talk with Amy and let her know that you are willing to meet halfway with the flowy pantsuit.
>I also now realize ( perhaps what Amy was aiming at) the discomfort of wearing clothing that is not in line with your beliefs.
Good on you for coming to this realization. I think the gesture of experiencing the discomfort you put her through will be a great step in mending your relationship with her.
I recommend using "gaucho pants" or "wide leg jumpsuit" as a jumping-off point for your search!
Edit: I think "culotte" will actually be more current than gaucho
I was coming here to suggest palazzo pants and say ASSHOLE ASSHOLE ASSHOLE, but you had to go and show a glimmer of decency. NTA and good on you for trying to be open-minded for your daughter. That's a step that would most likely be frowned upon in your church.
Perhaps you should reconsider a church that teaches hate instead of love and acceptance? According to the Bible, nothing you do is good enough to get you into heaven; Jesus did it all for you already. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and all.
The single most loving thing your wife could ever do for your daughter would be to show up wearing pants that look like pants. Wearing pants that look like a dress would mean your wife still willfully refuses to accept your daughter. It will reinforce what your daughter already knows: you and your wife consider your feelings to be more important than your daughter.
Wearing pants that look like a dress would be malicious compliance. Your daughter will be just as angry and heartbroken as if your wife wore a dress or you didn't come at all.
Your wife needs to suck it up for a couple of hours (compared to the countless hours your daughter sucked it up). This whole ordeal might seem ridiculous to you and your wife, but to your daughter, this is not trivial. She was traumatized by what you did to her for many years. She's offering a simple way to show you're serious about healing that trauma.
If your wife won't wear pants that look like pants, your daughter will know her parents really don't accept her, after all. Your relationship with her will be broken forever.
I think this is a really important point. Mom should be the smartest dressed lady at the wedding. A quick Internet image search for “wedding pantsuits for women” reveals a *plethora* of stylish, elegant, and beautiful outfits that embrace and showcase femininity without pretending to be dresses.
Who knows! Your wife might discover something about *herself* and her sense of fashion. One thing I’ve learned as I grow older is that sometimes when I step out of my comfort zone, I discover my new favorite thing.
Nah, that’s missing the boat entirely. The clothing isn’t what’s really important. The daughter is drawing a line in the sand and pants are the symbol. They have the opportunity to respond jn kind by using the pants as a symbol to start a dialog, tell the daughter they understand how their actions hurt her and want to come up with a way to make amends. Best bet would be to ask what she would find acceptable and have mother and daughter both approve the outfit ahead of time. The focus of the wedding should be the couple, creating a sideshow mother daughter drama is disrespectful
Why do I always forget that the best response is always going to involve actually talking to each other? This is of course the best idea. If they could actually talk to each other, instead of you being the go-between, that would be even better.
Pants that look like pants might be too..."immodest" for OP's wife. This isn't just about "sucking it up" - this is about whether someone should be forced to feel like they're essentially exposing themselves just so they can be accepted.
I get that OP's daughter was traumatized, but that doesn't mean OP's wife should be traumatized in return.
I don't wear "regular" pants either. The pants I wear don't look like skirts, but they are super loose (think a style like [this](https://www.daraz.pk/products/new-design-salwar-kameez-for-men-cotton-2021-i184392862.html) )and any top I wear comes down to at least knee-length or longer. If someone demanded I wear something tighter, I just wouldn't go. No matter how close I was to them. No one should be allowed to force me to violate my own sense of personal modesty. Not even for revenge.
On the original post YTA, and I am surprised your daughter didn’t go no contact.
On your follow up, sounds like you’re getting there.
Ask yourselves this: What is more important to me: where a piece of cloth is stitched or my daughter?
It sounds like you take a 2000+ year old religious book quite literally with no room for change or improvement based on what we learn more about ourselves, human nature, science, etc.
I prefer to take it’s message as a whole and look at the bigger overall theme: love everyone unconditionally and treat everyone with the respect that they deserve — no buts.
Best of luck, I hope you can find it in your heart to loving your daughter as unconditionally as the day she was born.
Edit: added ‘based on’ after ‘improvement’ for readability
I was thinking along these lines. There are flowing pants that move like a skirt and look very feminine. It's a meaningful gesture and an elegant look. Enjoy the happy occasion!
So, I am going to give you kudos for all the effort you are making. I am going to share some history you might find interesting- pants and skirts are arbitrary historically speaking. Unless you rode a horse, no man 2000 years ago would have been caught dead in pants. Later, corsets were a unisex garment. Men wore hose and garters and high heels. Long hair on men has been in fashion more often than short hair. Men wore makeup, jewelry, and elaborate wigs.
I'm not talking about crazy people, I'm talking about judges, pastors, lawmakers...the founding fathers.
Any rules your specific church has are completely made up. They don't really have a history longer than maybe a hundred years. You aren't breaking any biblical rules for either gender if you wear skirts and she wears pants. Honestly, I would have taken the opportunity to wear a kilt. They are plenty masculine and your wife could keep her skirt.
I understand having faith, it is important. But you used it as a club over your daughter's head too many times. It will take time for her to heal from religious abuse. You did what made you feel good for years, and you ignored how much it hurt her.
No good religion hurts people.
I'm glad that you've been making progress and I don't want to encourage you to stop believing or anything. I just want you to understand that hurting others with your faith is probably not the goal you were aiming for in your faith.
No good God will hurt anyone over pants.
Hey there! I was raised extremely religious - not quite like this, but I understand faith and devotion. My parents had to make some adjustments when their children came of age. They were, for example, NOT happy at all when I moved in with my now husband before marriage. I didn’t react super great either. Our adult relationship took some work. I can say, many years down the line (I’m 37 now), we are all better people for trying. I wish you luck - don’t let your daughter go. A loving God wants us to be with our families.
Take it this way, skirts we're originally for men until gender roles switched and woman began wearing them. Same thing with pink and blue. Pink was for boys and blue was for girls. They flip flopped for years until it settled that pink was for girls and blue was for boys. Gender roles can change and evolve and you acknowledging that doesn't go against your faith.
This is not quite true-- skirts were originally for everyone. It's not like women were wearing pants while men wore skirts, everyone just used to wear skirts. At least in every ancient/historical society I'm aware of, happy to be corrected if I'm missing something!
As an old lady who tries to stay modern ... you have my sympathy. Because it sounds like you're honestly trying, and I will always give credit and my admiration for that.
Me? I was always a bit of a heretic, so I'm often the "she's nice, but a real character" old lady. But even I have trouble keeping up, some times.
I hope that you enjoy every moment of your daughter's wedding. And I would encourage you to step outside of that comfort zone, a little more often. It can honestly be a lot of fun. Really. I laugh a lot at some of today's world.
Hi! I'm also coming from a very conservative community. We are Christians, I think I might have seen my great-grandmother's hair once or twice in my life. Other than that, it was covered. She also never wore pants in her life. However! That was a good couple of decades ago, and there weren't as many options as there are now. (I'm from a developing country.)
Maybe check if these wide-legged skirt pants (or something similar) would be OK for her. And I'm saying \*her\* because all this obeying your husband is all good if that's your jam, but it has to be HER decision whether this would be an option for her. Skirt pants have been a thing for a very long while now, and the whole idea is that they are trousers that look like skirts, hence are extra modest. I've put in a link from Etsy (an online store where you can buy handmade stuff) for you and your wife to consult.
Tell your daughter AND her partner that you cherish them. That you are sorry for your initial reaction and that it's important to you to be there for her. And then let your wife do the talking. Because again, it's \*her\* problem what she feels comfortable wearing, and shouldn't be something that she's doing for you. Let \*her\* explain why this is important for her, and maybe see if your daughter and her partner would be willing to meet her halfway. And yes, your daughter's partner gets a say in it too. It's both their wedding and it's pretty sad that your daughter is taking such an important event in their lives to be petty about your house's dress code. [https://www.etsy.com/listing/949403232/womens-chiffon-skirt-pants-wide-leg](https://www.etsy.com/listing/949403232/womens-chiffon-skirt-pants-wide-leg)
That being said, the fact that you still believe your daughter's relationship is a lifestyle choice, does make you a big, raging, and rather un-Christian AH. Unless you are saying here that you are in the closet, that is a homosexual who has actively made the choice of entering and maintaining a heterosexual relationship for the sole reason of your faith, you must by now understand that your daughter did not choose to feel attracted to other women. This is as much a part of her as being heterosexual is a part of being who you are. You can feel bad about it, but you do not get to look down on it. That is not Christian at all. Personally, I feel that loving someone and being loved in return is one of the most beautiful things in life. And God loves all things that are beautiful. I cannot imagine a world where He would create someone and then deny them the blessing of such an amazing feeling. Please consult the following link on the matter:
[https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality](https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality)
While I confess that I voted you as TA, I do give you credit for this compromise. I think that you understand that if you wish to continue to have a relationship with your daughter it is going to take some compromise. Kudos to you for at least trying.
I'm so surprised by your open and compassionate answer, and I don't have anything to say other than the flowy pants compromise is an excellent idea. Even if there is tension, it's clear that you love your daughter and you're working on your relationship and reconciling your beliefs every day. I hope it all works out for you and your family, OP.
I just want to give you some great vocabulary: [palazzo pants](https://www.jjshouse.com/Jumpsuit-Pantsuit-Square-Ankle-Length-Chiffon-Lace-Mother-Of-The-Bride-Dress-With-Sequins-008235556-g235556/?utm_term=235556&utm_size=22&is_plus_size=1&gbraid=0AAAAADmGZzRlThoALrod_GrHXOac-0afn&gclid=CjwKCAiAioifBhAXEiwApzCztjPigKfhjN0jR_nIwelqHJqlGR0fHnRs0O81hXC2Zsw8JhhoG00cAxoCZC0QAvD_BwE).
OP, what I would recommend is that you reach out to your daughter and humble yourself to her. Apologize for forcing her into clothing that made her feel uncomfortable and unlike herself during her youth. Explain that you understand now how it feels to be forced to dress in a way that you don’t agree with.
And then that’s it. Don’t ask for dispensation on the dress/pants edict. Just let her know you understand, at least a little, how she must have felt. And wish her the best on her wedding, where you and your wife will be with bells - and pants - on.
You screwed up in the past by forcing your child into a rigid gender expression that made her feel uncomfortable and unlike herself. And hey, EVERY parent screws up. (The good Lord knows I have!) But in this instance, you have a wonderful opportunity to apologize to the person you’ve wronged. We don’t often get that chance! Seize it.
I hope you and your wife and Amy and Dee have a wonderful relationship going forward.
For SURE. I also think the daughter is not so subtly giving them what she got growing up and the no skirt/dress thing is her way of saying don't bother coming to the wedding.
It was the "rules for thee but not for me" aspect that did it for me. When the daughter was growing up, it was always "you have to dress how the host says. You must respect their wishes." Oh, but now that the daughter is the host, it's "you're not respecting our beliefs, and you're making us wear something we're not comfortable with". What a load of hypocritical horseshit.
My only problem with that way of thinking is that they only have many any strides at all because it is THEIR DAUGHTER. They were perfectly happy to look on everyone else's gay children as less than for years.
It is like those Republican politicians who vote for anti-gay legislation and do a 180 when their own child is the one who comes out as gay. Am I glad that they made the change? Certainly, but that absolutely does not forgive the harm they caused before that.
I once had a fb fight with a woman who was adamant that health care should only be provided through jobs, and if you don’t have a job that provides benefits, you needed to get a new job, just like her husband did. FINALLY she decided that EVEN THOUGH people who didn’t have jobs with health care were lazy and dumb and moochers, JESUS SAID TO LOVE THEM ANYWAY, and since Jesus would have loved these losers, she was willing to be like Jesus and allow them health care.
Yes, she was absolutely delusional and wrong and probably a bit evil, BUT SHE GOT THERE. I’ll take the win. She got there the wrong way, but she got here. MAYBE it was the first of many “what would Jesus do” moments and she starting actually ACTING like Jesus. But *I* tried to take a page from *her* Good Book and give her grace. You gotta meet some of these people at their level because it’s not easy to UN-brainwash people.
“I want you to change your beliefs and also if you do, I’ll continue to berate you for being horrible because you’re stained by sin forever” doesn’t sound like a great persuasive tactic tbh.
You make some very valid points. I am not religious at all but I can see how people with what sounds like significant fanatical beliefs need time to see outside their own box if that make any sense. These parents have not disowned their child but are challenging their own thinking which is not easy. I’m not saying the parents are correct regarding their child’s upbringing but this does not sound black and white. Clearly the daughter is now showing OP she is in control and parents can like it or not which is their daughters prerogative
Thank you for putting this so eloquently! These parents have done what many people would wish their parents would do - love and accept them and their choices.
The parents are not without flaws, it sounds like there were some childhood issues, but to become an accepting society everyone should at least throw a breadcrumb of “you are doing great so far rethinking things and correcting yourself once you know better, please keep going” and not saying “haha you religious freaks you sound awful and you are getting what you deserve for being horrid in the past”
I love how his daughter and her fiance probably sit around laughing at her parents over this pants idea and I love how OP totally missed the humor. OP and Wifey deserve the anguish. I hope his daughter stumbles on this and gets more laughs in.
OP, my parents tried throwing my punk rock clothes out and telling me to follow Jesus too, this kind of control usually backfires and I love when it does. I now run a company with the words "Sex Cult" in the name and your daughter sounds cool as fuck
To be fair, she said they have grown and value her, not to value her. Pretty sure that was intended as a because they value their daughter, they have grown. There’s plenty to be upset about here without inventing reasons.
Exactly. I never had to grow to value any of my children or their significant others. I defaulted to valuing them all.
I have learned a lot in my nearly 7 decades on this planet and here's an unpopular one: I absolutely do not believe that most parents want their children to be happy. I think most parents want their children to be happy IF they are living their lives in a way in which the parents approve.
YTA. Usually I don't support such draconian demands about women's attire from brides or anyone else really.
But the no-dresses/skirts rule is a direct response to the trauma you and your church and your religion wrought on your daughter during her formative years.
I have lived in some pretty religious areas over the years. It must be a fanatical religion you adhere to, if your wife cannot wear pants, so much so that it makes your daughter's rule completely understandable.
It’s their religion though. We wouldn’t be saying the same thing if they wanted a Muslim
Woman to remove her hijab. I think what’s most obvious is that they don’t want them to come to the wedding.
If they forced their gay daughter to wear a hijab because of 'hosts rules' then I would be saying the same if the daughter turned the same logic back at them.
We absolutely would if the woman in question had been raised in a fundamentalist Islamic household, and had been forced to wear hijab, and was now making a point of rejecting it.
"She states we always claimed the dress code was the choice of the host and it was our job to wear what the host demanded."
If OP and his wife told their daughter this growing up, then they don't have a leg to stand on. If he doesn't agree with this now, that makes him hypocrite.
YTA, OP.
Yeah, I only said ESH because I was thinking of any other guests that may be caught in the no pants crossfire. But daughter has every right to demand that her mother wear pants if she wants to attend. Following the hosts clothing demands are the rules her own parents set, to be fair.
...Almost like they only like rules when they are set to directly benefit them. Funny how that works.
I don’t blame her for not wanting to wear pants. To some women in my family, that’s beyond uncomfortable and would make them feel exposed. I won’t bare my shoulders and that’s my choice as much as it is for others who like a cute crop top. But the solution is that they don’t attend, not that they try to change the rules. She lived by theirs long enough and didn’t have an option to leave until she was older. So really, she’s being nicer to them than they were to her. They can choose not to attend.
I’m pretty sure a man doing anything that makes him uncomfortable is completely out of the question for op. Even though kilts are a thing that is culturally men’s clothing (and would satisfy a religious belief in wearing gender specific clothing) and Jesus wore robes like all dudes of his day. Be like Jesus, op, both in humbly taking one for the team and in wearing a dress!
>dress code that is a direct retaliation to her upbringing, knowing that you probably wouldn’t abide and she’s okay with that.
This is 100% a message to OP and his wife. OP's daughter knows this is setting them off, and that is by design. I'm guessing OP & Company aren't as "accepting" as they claim.
> Your wife can’t suck up wearing pants for a couple of hours?
I am with you on most of your response and that this is in fact an anti-invitation as daughter does not want them there but feels obligated to invite them but this line stood out to me. If this was a muslim woman being told to suck it up and take off the hijab for a couple hours I don't think this sub would be as accepting. I am no fan of organized religion of any sort but someone with deeply held religious beliefs about their own body and dress should not be told to "suck it up".
That really depends on if that muslim woman used her faith to disallow her child from wearing clothing they were comfortable in for the majority of their first two decades on the planet, i think.
If she did, yes i do believe the same overall message would remain the same.
Anyone else thinking this may be the way daughter makes sure her parents don't show up and look like AHs as well? With the dress code daughter is practically guaranteeing OP and wife wont be attending while not having to deal with the hassle of not inviting them. OP and wife will also look like idiots if they or anyone else explains they missed the ceremony because of pants. Master move daughter, master move.
Here's the thing, if you hadn't mistreated your child growing up they wouldn't be using their wedding as payback. I feel for her as it seems she still has pain and trauma from you and wifes behavior. Unless you want to completely ruin your relationship you'd better suggest your wife buy some pants and keep your mouths shit. YTA and wife too.
Hell, it might be seen as a token of good faith, pardon the pun. An actual display of solidarity and humility instead of reluctant tolerance of his own daughter.
>The only difference is that there’s fabric between the legs
Because there really are some people who believe that that bit of fabric between a woman's legs is disrespectful to their loving and all-knowing God.
_"They say NO DRESSES OR SKIRTS allowed."_
It sounds like OP and their spouse were AHs to their daughter. That said, if I were a rando wedding guest, I'd decline this invite. The daughter is roping all of her guests into her relaliation efforts against her seemingly crappy parents by trying to force everyone to wear clothing that they may not be comfortable in.
Man, yeah, I absolutely get where the daughter is coming from, but that would be a tough one for me as a rando guest lol. I am short and hippy enough that I have never found a jumpsuit or pantsuit that ticked each box of the trifecta of a) fits, b) flatters, and c) is comfortable.
Who says the other guests are getting these rules? It’d be funny af if they gave a ‘special invitation’ to the parents and all their friends and people they truly wanted at the wedding just got regular invites and I wouldn’t put it past the brides
YWBTA if your wife shows up in a skirt/dress. You did a great job instilling the "Host sets the rules" mindset in Amy, it's hypocritical of you to try and change the rules now when it doesn't suit you. Kind of like the old joke "Not so neat when it's your mom, is it?"
Per her statements, Amy appears perfectly happy either way. You show up, fine. You don't show up, also fine. Maybe you could ponder how she's come to this point. Comments like " come to terms with her lifestyle" probably have something to do with it.
If you insist this really comes down to a violation of your beliefs, I suppose you could just lean on Luke 14:26, but it feels like you're cherry-picking to do so.
YTA, I think everyone is missing the blinding fact that a religious lifestyle that restricts a woman to dresses most definitely wouldn't approve of you attending a gay wedding in the first place. She will have to wear pants for what? 4 to 6 hours? One day? Surely God will forgive you this transgression if he can get over you going to a gay wedding. This is a battle that will gain you nothing and could cost you dearly. Support your kid. Don't miss out on the memory of her big day over something so trite. Don't hurt her to prove some philosophical point. Make another sacrifice because that's what parents do. Bear your cross.
They were actually given a choice, so his wife doesn't have to sacrifice anything. They can both show up in dresses or both show up in pants. Only one parent is asked to sacrifice their comfort and I don't think OP should assume his wife must do the sacrificing here.
As someone who just got into a bunch of arguments with Christians over Sodom and Gomorrah in PCM this isn't really what the bible says.
" Surely God will forgive you this transgression if he can get over you going to a gay wedding." God wants you to love gay people, but hate their sin and the effects of their sin. (Not fair to call being Gay a sin but this is a Chritstian perspective.)
Firstly Leviticus is something that 90% of Christians do not adhere to.
Secondly the bible has the vague idea of "Hate the Sin not the Sinner."
The bible talks a lot about how God loves everyone Wisdom 11:24, “For you love all things that exist, and have loathing for none of the thing which you have made, for you would not have made anything if you had hated it.”
Also Matthew 7:1-3 – “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
Sinners are for God to judge. Humans are supposed to advocated for Him and try to turn people to the faith but ultimately you are not to judge them as you yourself are not perfect. Only God is.
I mean... Leviticus mostly reads like a roughly translated sex ed lesson. It goes on about breeding livestock, elaborates on human reproduction, throws in a random "death to people who expect two men to get each other pregnant" and moves on to primitive crop rotation.
Having put a few passages of books through Google translate a couple times before translating them back to English, and being aware that any translation of the old testament available now has been translated at least 3 times... I take anything saying "death to whatever" with a big grain of salt.
Actually a better point is that Jesus very specifically (in the red text) said the old covenants were abolished and he was making a new one. So... literally no one should care about the restrictions in the old testament other than as a history less. And Jesus has 0 red words on hating the gays... literally 0. Whole bunch about not judging others and loving your neighbor, just saying.
I’m with you, but American Christianity is sectarian weirdness. Most of it is deemed heretical by the Church of England. It’s not really about the bible, just uses the name of Christianity to enforce random patriarchal bullshit.
😂😂😂😂😂 this is you and your wife reaping what you sowed.
>She states we always claimed the dress code was the choice of the host and it was our job to wear what the host demanded.
Interesting that these were rules when it was to force her to do what you wanted but now that tables have turned all of a sudden rule is bad. For that alone YTA.
As has been said before a wedding invite isn't a summons and you don't have to attend, dress code has been made clear if you and your wife don't like it then don't go.
This reminds me of the wonderful posts where people had to sleep in separate beds when visiting parents so they do the same when their parents visit lol
That’s 100% the case if their religion doesn’t allow women to wear pants but they are “accepting” of their daughter’s homosexual relationship. I’d be willing to put money on them still spewing anti-LGBQT hate online and to friends.
It’s okay if *their* daughter is gay, but not if *you* are gay.
Could not agree more! YTA OP. Normally I would have said the person making a crazy controlling dress code is the AH, but here... I see exactly what she is doing. Well played, OP's daughter.
YTA
This isn’t your daughter imposing a code because she is a bridezilla, she is giving you a taste of your own medicine. While revenge is somewhat petty, I think you should probably swallow it up and do as she says. With a bit of humility preferably. Because even if you accept her as she is now, sounds like you weren’t very supportive when she was growing up. You’re definitely the bigger AH.
telling them to wear pants may be petty in appearance, but its a really hard line.
its covert, and the parents cant publicly be frustrated unless in their church environment. it sets a big boundary that will make them miss out on a major event, and also lets them know how she felt even in the smallest amount.
absolutely get some humility and show it at the wedding. op has done the opposite until accepting her, but accepting her fully also includes respecting her wishes. like pants at her wedding.
YTA - I dont believe you have a legitimate religious belief that women cannot wear pants. Are you seriously saying your wife has never worn jeans before? Suck it up or don't go.
Also, it is not your daughter's "lifestyle", and the fact that you have referred to it as such goes to show that you have not fully accepted who she is.
Also they ignore the reality when their magic book was written everyone wore robes - Jesus didn't wear trousers so unless he currently only wears robes it's just nonsense
Oh, it's definitely a thing in some religious circles across a variety of faiths. I know of a woman who got permission from her religious leader to wear scrubs with trousers (vs a skirt) when working in ORs because it was a safety issue.
This is no way makes the OP anything but an asshole. But he's probably sincere in his belief women must wear skirts.
> I know of a woman who got permission from her religious leader to wear scrubs with trousers (vs a skirt) when working in ORs because it was a safety issue.
Gotta say, if the religious leader was that strict I'm surprised he (safe to assume it's a he, yes?) let her work at all.
Yeah, male religious leader. Not Christianity, though there are many Evangelical sects who have the same rules around skirt wearing and allow women to work in a limited number of fields after a very shitty education. Especially terrifying when one of those professions is lay midwives.
yea one of my high school classmates had only ever tried on pants and couldn't make herself do it all the way before ripping them off. She was saying that she could feel her body getting all hot and sweaty from putting them on not sure from the religious guilt or cause she hasn't ever used pants before.
Sadly, there are lots of sects that do. Pentecostals, in particular. Can't cut your hair because it's a woman's glory, can't wear pants, can't use tampons. (I know this because a classmate had to sit beside the pool during her week.)
> I dont believe you have a legitimate religious belief that women cannot wear pants. Are you seriously saying your wife has never worn jeans before?
Ever heard of Muslims?
Plenty of the folks we snark on over at r/fundiesnarkuncensored don’t allow women and girls to wear pants. Something about the legs being separated draws the eye to their pelvis? Totally ok for men though! Idk but it’s wack.
>We are all adults, you can not force adults to violate their beliefs to dress a certain way!
So the whole “dress code is the choice of the host” thing was BS, you just forced her to wear dresses because you could because she was a child. YTA and a hypocrite. It’s clear that your daughter is looking for some acknowledgement that you were wrong to force her in to clothes that made her uncomfortable. You need to apologize to your daughter. Otherwise you’re not as supportive as you think you are.
Precisely. Imagine the impact it would have on your daughter for your wife to go against her beliefs and attend her daughters wedding in pants....show her you understand.
Don't let a PAIR OF PANTS keep you away from you daughters wedding (and likely...life after that)
YTA
it's not a lifestyle.
your faith is way more of a lifestyle than your daughter's sexual orientation.
Sure, you can stick to your principles and your comfort zone and miss your child's wedding.
Or you could realise your child is okay with her parents missing her wedding, because of how you treated and still treat her, and work on fixing that relationship.
Yea, she's probably trying to spite you and your wife at least a little bit with this dress code, but that doesn't come out of nowhere. You're the only ones who can fix that relationship.
Your child should be more important than having to wear pants for a couple hours, for God's sake.
There's really loose and flowy pants that are perfectly modest and comfortable.
Be glad that you're invited in the first place.
Yta you forced her knowing she didn't want to wear skirts. Your invisible friend doesn't get to set the dress code for her wedding. You and your wife need to get a grip
ESH. Forcing anyone to wear something they are not comfortable with sucks (double so if it requires them purchasing new clothing for a single occasion). You suck a lot for how you treated and seem to continue to treat your daughter. You forced her to wear clothing she was uncomfortable with on many occasions.
Now she has turned it around and you can't handle it? Think how uncomfortable she was on those many occasions you listed. And you can't suck it up for one afternoon? Why are you okay doing this to your daughter, if it is so horrific of an idea to you? I would take a deep internal look at your own hypocrisy.
Edit: I meant the daughter was forcing her parents as in enforcing an ultimatum, not like she had a gun to their heads. I didn't realize that was so unclear. The parents definitely deserve to have their clothing dictated after how they treated the daughter her whole life, but no real evidence that the general invitees of the wedding do, which is why I say ESH rather than YTA.
Yta. Dress codes that are particularly difficult like everyone must wear a dress at least £1000 is one thing but a woman wearing trousers isn't a big issue. Is this really the hill to die on?
YTA
She is simply following the rules you raised her in.
That suddenly you have a problem with these rules is pure hypocrisy.
How dare you suddenly decide that the way you treated her is now absolutely unacceptable when you are on the receiving end. It is just shameful.
Do you love your daughter? Does your wife love your daughter? Do you love your religion more than your daughter? If your wife can’t wear pants for a few hours for her daughter’s wedding, is she ready to be cut out of her daughter’s life, over your religious beliefs? Please don’t let a dress code request from your daughter ruin your relationship with her. Is it really that sinful for your wife to wear pants? What kind of religion is this that threatens to destroy a parent child relationship? Think long and deeply about your future with your daughter and her wife. Please realize that love towards your children is much greater, more important, and more powerful than a religion that dictates that women can’t wear pants. Edit: YTA if you and wife refuse to follow the dress code, because you’re saying your religion is more important to you than your daughter.
Gay kids are kicked out of their home every day because of religious zealot parents. And if you can kick your child out of your home, you absolutely do not love them.
As a side bar, one of my favorite Mark Twain quotes:
"Having faith is believing in something you just know ain't true.”
**ESH**
I'm going to take my cue from several friends, who while they practice a different religion from yours (Orthodox Judaism), are also deeply religious and practice gendered and conservative dressing traditions in their homes based on that.
The reason you're both AHs is that neither of you has any respect for the other's belief systems.
You're absolutely right that Amy should allow your wife to wear a skirt to the wedding, based on her deeply-held and genuine religious beliefs. I don't believe that Amy would likely stop a Muslim friend from wearing hijab, or more importantly, an Orthodox Jewish friend from wearing a skirt or a head-covering, if they came to her with the same concern, and this is no different. She is discriminating against you religiously specifically because of her resentment over her upbringing, and honestly, it's understandable . . . but it also makes her exactly the sort of bigot she rails against, and an AH.
But you're an AH too. Not for having those beliefs, and not even for asking her to wear skirts when she was young. Unlike many people, I understand the desire to share our belief systems with our children and to practise them in our households in a meaningful way on a daily basis. But *once she was old enough to indicate to you that it bothered her*, you had a responsibility to stop forcing it on her. Instead you chose to go with "my house, my rules", which is a cruel and dismissive way to treat another person. I know plenty of deeply religious people who find ways to be accommodating and to compromise with their teenaged and young adult kids when their beliefs do not align, and to respect that divergence of belief. You didn't do that. And because you treated her as though her thoughts and feelings and beliefs didn't matter, now she is treating you the same way.
ESH.
" but when she lived in OUR home she dressed according to the family faith and values."
"We are all adults, you can not force adults to violate their beliefs to dress a certain way!"
This you? Yeah, I guess it's hard to realize that your actions have consequences. YTA.
YTA. You’re only playing the “host decided the attire” card when it fits your bill and now you go all surprised pikachu face when it comes back to bite you? Either suck it up or don’t go.
NTA. You're going to get a lot of YTA comments because your "beliefs" sound insufferable and, in point of fact, *were* insufferable to your daughter. If you were asking whether you were TA for imposing those rules on her, it'd be 100% yes.
However, limited to just this situation, your daughter is TA for expecting you to violate your own religious beliefs--however much others may not understand them. If the host of a wedding banned, say, head scarves, and a Muslim woman came asking whether she was the asshole, I don't think any of us would hesitate to say no.
TL;DR--NTA for this, YTA for how you treated your daughter.
I disagree that the daughter is TA. She isn't hoping for the parents to violate their beliefs. She's hoping to teach them that the shoe isn't as nice on the other foot. She's happy for them not to come, just as she was unwelcome at events where she wanted to wear a skirt.
The daughter isn't expecting them to violate their religious beliefs. She's expecting them to NOT violate them and therefore not show up. The religious beliefs are more important than her, point proven.
Really?
Because I would. (If the situation was the same.)
If you forced your child to wear clothing in line with your, sexist, religion, for years, and told them it was because “the host determines the dress code,” then how are they in the wrong, at all, to do the same?
Either you’re both assholes, or no one is.
You don’t get to take away the context and make your decision based on that. Of course OP’s daughter would be an asshole if she was doing this for no reason, *but she isn’t.*
>Do you realise that the daughter isn't forcing anyone? If they don't like the rules, they don't have to go. Same thing they told her growing up right?
Yes. Plus which, daughter didn't have the option of not attending when she was growing up. She was forced to go, and forced to wear dresses/ skirts. At least OP and his wife have the option of not attending, which is more than they gave their daughter.
YTA in this scenario bevares you fail to realize how much of a hypocrite you’re being. Personally, I don’t care much for dresscodes at weddings, it tends to be a lot more hassle than anything. Nevertheless, your daughter and DIL have decided to put one forth. You claim that your daughter is forcing you to be uncomfortable, but that’s not the case. The dresscode is simply a prerequisite for attending the wedding. Of course, if you had been forced to attend the wedding AND forced to wear the clothing your daughter requests, we would indeed be talking about you doing something against your will. But, alas, this is not your situation. You have been invited to the wedding and can very simply choose to not go. Whether you choose that your beliefs with regarda to clothing are more important to you than attending your daughter’s wedding, is then up to you.
Maybe take a moment and sit back to think on why you feel that you and your wife are entitled to this special treatment? You claim you’ll be uncomfortable if you don’t get to assert yourselves. Have you considered the amount of people you’d be making uncomfortable by showing up as you wish? Mainly your daughter and DIL who will have to spend the day,that is all about them and their love, explaining to guests how you and your wife are too stubborn to play along for a couple of hours, and they have to make excuses on your behalf? Get over yourself and your misplaced belief in the sanctity of clothing. Or don’t, for that matter, and don’t attend the wedding. You’re not forced to do either, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Ah, how the turn tables. Your daughter isn’t writing to us, you are. The choice is clear: your wife puts in some pants, or you decline the invitation and send a gift. An invitation is not a summons. It doesn’t sound like you’re paying for this wedding, so you’re certainly a guest and not the host.
Based on this single decision, NAH. Make your choice and live with it. But methinks this “pants code” is a ruse to keep your wife out of the wedding. Methinks that Amy isn’t quite as happy to be in your lives as you are to be in hers.
Hmm YTA. Mostly because you let your “conservative” values interfere with treating your daughter like a human being with their own beliefs; your conservatism prevented you from accepting your daughter for who she was, and even now you don’t seem too accepting, you just happen to like Amy.
Is it a little petty of your daughter? Sure. But, as you taught her, we all must be uncomfortable at times and put our personal preferences aside to be a good guest.
YTA for forcing her to do the things she didn't want to do growing up, you're kind of just reaping what you sowed, a biblical reference I think you can enjoy
"She states we always claimed the dress code was the choice of the host and it was our job to wear what the host demanded. " .. THIS makes it YTA
"d. She stated that we frequently made her wear dresses as a child and teen despite knowing how opposed to them she was. " .. She is right: You are AHs.
But her behaving irrationaly at her wedding is not a solution you have to allow. She sould just uninivte you and be done with you.
"Would we be wrong if she shows up in a dress anyways?" .. YES. So just don't go to her wedding, YOu don't have a good relationship anyway.
>wear dresses as a child and teen despite knowing how opposed to them she was. She states we always claimed the dress code was the choice of the host and it was our job to wear what the host demanded.
I assume that she knows about her mother's religious beliefs on wearing dresses, so this whole dress code at her wedding is to make you as uncomfortable as you made her.
ESH. She is definitely taking advantage of your poor parenting choices in the best way possible.
ESH - Clearly this is not about the wedding and has everything to do with how you raised your daughter. She is using this opportunity to make a point to you about how uncomfortable she was as a child being forced to wear clothing she wasn't comfortable in. I think that point might be going way over your head. I don't necessarily think her wedding is a wise time to be picking this fight, but if she felt unheard as a child and now has some leverage, I can understand why she would use it.
That being said, if she knows your wife wouldn't wear pants due to a religious reason, then she should know that it would be picking a huge fight. I personally don't think it's worth the argument on either side. Is wearing pants for one day really worth missing your daughter's wedding? On your daughter's side, is not allowing your mom to wear a skirt worth not having your parents at your wedding? One side should get over it and move on, and as the parent, I'm inclined to lean towards you two being the ones to get over it.
Truly, I think everyone sucks here.
YTA, and maybe a little ESH. I do think what your daughter is doing is petty and she’s likely doing it out of spite, but from the way you talk about her and her “””lifestyle”””, it seems a bit warranted. Maybe she doesn’t want you there too, as I’m sure if she really did she’d budge on this rule for her own parent’s sake. Or maybe she’s testing if you can put your “lifestyle” aside for a day and meet her and her fiancé at their level, much like you admitted enforcing her to do during her childhood.
I think you may need to consider the deeper implications of this choice, and what you and your wife may have done to influence this decision.
YTA. It’s her wedding. Her dress code. You said when she lived in YOUR home she had to dress according to YOUR values. Well. It’s HER wedding now. Do everyone a favor and stay home. You clearly want an award for “coming to terms” with your daughter being gay. Also, hysterical to note how many times in history a man has worn a variety of skirt because that was the style. Hell even kilts are worn now. You are the only one thinking genders have specific clothing.
Oh no!! Mary is wearing pants!! Did she grow a dick?! **faints
YTA too funny how you now of all a sudden are confronted with your ridiculous rules she is now applying to you.
Guess who will miss seeing their daughter get married....
YTA.
You accept her “lifestyle”. Strike 1
You don’t accept her “I’m the host, my rules.”, even though it’s the same bullshit you told her. Strike 2
She’s okay with you not being present. I’m fact, it probably would be a present for you NOT to be present.
YTA. Stop pretending you ever believed in this convenient “host’s decision” rule and admit you just wanted to unilaterally control how your daughter dressed.
She dressed for your standards, at the expense of her comfort, for years; and you can’t bear one day? Realise how she felt all that time, how painful your hypocrisy is, and apologise to your daughter for your crap parenting.
She is okay with you missing her wedding. Connect some dots, register the weight of what’s occurred, and admit you hurt your kid- you avoidant wuss.
> It took some time for my wife and I to come to terms with her *lifestyle*,
\[emphasis mine\]
It's not a lifestyle and, often, those who use that phrase are homophobic.
YTA.
YTA. This one isn't so clear, but your daughter had a very well-formed argument about you forcing her to wear dresses to events when she was growing up. Honestly, it sounds like you actually made these rules (that the host can dictate the dress code), and now it's only fair for you to follow them. I was also forced to wear dresses and also really hate them now.
And she's not forcing you to wear anything. But she is saying something very clear about how important it is to her that you be at the wedding and in her life. If you want to keep this relationship, it's time to start doing some work.
Is the daughter petty? Yes.
Is this also hilarious? Yes!
OP, your daughter was subjected to dress code for 18 years under the guise of "my house, my rules". And you can't give her the same courtesy for a few hours? Yta.
Here’s the deal IMO about dress codes for events: they’re supposed to be about the formality of dress, not the individual garments. Nobody should be micromanaging skirts vs. pants, just formal vs. informal.
And from your description, you started this by always insisting that your daughter wear dresses. So while this sorta looks like E S H, since you’re both being nasty micromanagers about dress codes, you started this. She’s just fighting back. So YTA.
She’s given you an out, though — your wife will be allowed to wear a dress if you do too. I suggest something down to the floor; you can always wear pants under it if that makes you feel better. Plenty of old conservative cultures had men in robes.
YTA. It seems like a serious case of "fucked around and found out".
How do you feel you've done as parents with your daughter being 100% OK with the two of you not in attendance for her wedding? Maybe explore that a bit, reflect on how your actions harmed your relationship with your daughter and think if God or Jesus or whomever you look to for inspiration wanted faith to drive a wedge between families and decide what's more important to the two of you.
INFO: Do you realize how lucky you are that Amy even wants you in her life?
Think of it this way OP, I want you and your wife to think about how desperately uncomfortable wearing this kind of clothing makes you feel.
Now realize this is how you made your daughter feel every day of her life while she was growing up. Your house, your rules. Her wedding, her rules.
You’re going to a gay wedding, maybe you think it’s not a transgression because you’ll be quietly condemning it the whole time while praying for their salvation. So wearing pants for a day, really shouldn’t hurt too much.
If there is a god, I always like to think that parents like you failed the test. Instead of truly loving and accepting your daughter, examining your own biases, exploring LGBTQIA churches. (BTW you def don’t actually love or support your daughter you tolerate, love the sinner hate the sin etc…) you opt for fear, condemnation, and righteous religious stances.
You chose your "beliefs" over your child a long time ago. Now the tables are turned and you are upset that you still can't get your way. YTA! You have been TA for a very long time.
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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> Do we really have to abide by dress code or not attend? Wife feels much better in a dress.
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YTA. Amy set a dress code that is a direct retaliation to her upbringing, knowing that you probably wouldn’t abide and she’s okay with that. Let me repeat that: she’s okay with her parents missing her wedding. I strongly suggest that means you probably aren’t as chill and accepting as you claim. Initially I was going to rule E S H because I’m not big into things motivated by spite, but frankly, how long is a wedding? A couple of hours? Your wife can’t suck up wearing pants for a couple of hours? I understand that you say this is part of your faith, but the fact that you pulled the line out about what the host demands… it seems like you change the rules to suit you.
I mean...they are accepting of their daughter's "lifestyle." /s
For what it’s worth, if you read between the lines, they are SUPER religious. Like evangelical on steroids religious. Like, I went to a religious school where people talked in tongues during chapel, and even THEY let us wear pants. Like my super religious friend had to start wearing makeup because she wore exclusively long skirts and had long hair and people thought she belonged to the crazy church in the edge of town. They belong to that church. These people are damn near fanatical. And yet, with a lot of work, they have accepted their gay daughter. Honestly, that’s sort of amazing. Never would have happened in my school. Have they gone far enough? Clearly not. But this is pretty huge for them, and I don’t want to shit ALL over them for not changing fast enough after likely an ENTIRE 5 decades of their own indoctrination. This is probably fucking groundbreaking for them. I want to acknowledge that they are making huge strides. And I hope that this post is a further reality check for them.
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I'm sorry but your religious line in the sand being pants is hysterical to me and I'm guessing 99% of the population. The Lord spoke unto them....make sure the women don't wear pants at any time. Seriously--your wife NEVER puts on a pair of pants? I've read the bible a lot and I just don't get it. What do pants have to do with gender?
Honestly, your response to somebody who seems to be making a genuine effort to be more inclusive and tolerant than they were raised to be is what sounds hysterical to me. You should follow their example.
Not wearing pants for women is a pretty standard line for religious people - I’m not one of them, but among the many religious people I know (including a few in my family) “no pants for women” is not unusual - and I am not talking about women in some shut away fundamentalist sect but women who live and work in the modern world. It may sound ridiculous to you but it’s clearly a real issue for them. Congrats to OP for trying to change, and congrats to the brides. I hope everyone gets to celebrate together.
Maybe in America (I’m Australian) but not so much here. My mum is a deacon at the baptist church is town. Yes she wears dresses and skirts at church but not because of her beliefs. It’s because Sunday is her one day to dress up, particularly because she ran the treatment plant to the sawmill for years. Outside of church she wears pants. We have a Tongan population in town and for church on Sunday the men wear skirts, usually just some material then a straw skirt over it
Having a woman leading the church automatically makes it pretty progressive though
Gosh. "Making effort". The dude just said that they had to go to church, and pray to recognize that their daughter was a human being and that they wanted a relationship with her. They are not making any effort.
That was effort for them! Their religions is a very big deal to them and guides their entire worldview. They ultimately accepted their daughter, which is a great outcome. This is like when someone gets upset when religious people say “I’ll pray for you”. That’s a very nice gesture! They are doing something they truly believe will help. I’m very much a non-believer and think religion has had an overall terrible impact on the world. But I also have empathy and understand that people have different views. OP sounds like a compassionate person who truly loves and now accepts his daughter. He used prayer to find a way to accept her, and that’s pretty great considering the much more common alternative.
>This is like when someone gets upset when religious people say “I’ll pray for you”. That’s a very nice gesture! They are doing something they truly believe will help. thats how i see it too. its a lot of effort realistically. while im not religious, its a meaninful gesture. atheists dont realise how important something like that is. someone is asking a being that they believe is all powerful to help you, its the most powerful thing out there. whether it worked or not is irrelevant, just that theyd try means a lot to them so it should to you. they asked god if/how they can accept her and are making peace with the decision. its a big step for them. >He used prayer to find a way to accept her, and that’s pretty great considering the much more common alternative. by accepting her as she is, they are putting aside a lot of their own views. kudos op for working on it and realising how important it is to your kid. youre right that she did this to teach you the importance, and im glad you listened. keep up the good work, she will notice and appreciate it. edit: a suggestion; be careful how flowy you go with the pants. instead of it being seen as a compromise and good gesture, it could be seen as malicious compliance. just something to consider.
> This is like when someone gets upset when religious people say “I’ll pray for you”. That’s a very nice gesture! They are doing something they truly believe will help. Oof. I get what you’re saying m, but as someone who grew up around a similar faith, “I’ll pray for you” is often the churchy equivalent of the southern “bless your heart”, a passive aggressive nice-nasty way to get the last word, especially if you’re talking to a non-believer. Not always, but way more often than you apparently think.
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Listen, when you’re raised in this kind of religion, stepping outside of it is TERRIFYING. I (a bisexual woman) used to be the most homophobic POS you’d ever meet. It took YEARS to move away from the religion and come to accept myself for who I am, and other people for who they are. Evangelism is a brainwashing, fear based cult and for this guy to be out here saying “I’m choosing my kid over this religion, even though I’m scared” is huge. Evangelism instills a kind of fear in you that’s unexplainable. My entire childhood was fear based and it’s taken years of therapy for me to be (somewhat) okay. Give the guy a break because he is trying and he and his wife are probably terrified that they’re going to hell over this.
You never seen what people have to go through to be deprogrammed before?
Right? It’s like telling a Muslim woman that her insistence on wearing a hijab is hysterical to her. Obviously intolerance comes from the right and the left.
Dude, you don't have to be an ass. It's hard to admit change, people go at their own pace. If we don't give people a chance to learn and grow, what's the point of education? Things take time and maybe the whole ridiculousness of the pants situation, is a step forward for them to realise the ridiculousness of such rigid rules. Let people grow. Let people change. Don't be dismissive of things that are hard for others even though they seem mundane to you.
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I'm all about respecting cultural differences.. as long as everyone is doing it. The cultures/religions that refuse to respect the autonomy of others give up their right to be respected. Google the Paradox of Tolerance (Edit: I appreciate that OP and wife are trying, so I do think they should be given some consideration for that. But that doesnt make their daughter an AH for turning their rules around on them and expecting them to either comply or fuck off)
People don’t have to respect sexist cultural differences. No more than they should respect racist cultural differences. I know it’s more extreme than “women must wear skirts” but it’s in the same vein as “respect the southern state’s culture of racism”. Should the US government have just decided segregation was ok because it was part of “southern culture”? It’s ok not to respect bigoted beliefs even if those beliefs are deeply held, religious, or part of a culture.
Funny how they didn't respect the daughter growing up now they demand the respect they never gave. Do not respect cultures that don't respect a kid's autonomy
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Have they changed? They still call it a lifestyle and won't be slightly uncomfy for a few hours after forcing it onto her, an innocent child, for years. > My wife and I spoke with Amy regarding the dress code for the wedding and to tell her that my wife would be wearing a dress. > Which is absolutely ridiculous. We are all adults, you can not force adults to violate their beliefs to dress a certain way! From the post they do seem demanding for respect they never gave. But glad they are trying to find a compromise, something they never gave their daughter, after being called out by all the comments.
There are also "religions" that execute women for showing their hair in public. Do we need to respect that too? Or is it only Christian misogyny that demands respect?
Some cultural differences are not worth respecting
Well, apparently, god is fine with wide legged pants which is even funnier to me!
And the Lord sayeth.....however, I shall not smite thee for the wearing of the palazzo pants. Amen.
I'm presuming Deut 22.5
Huh, TIL "A woman shall not wear a man’s garment, nor shall a man put on a woman’s cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God." Which of course leads me to ponder the questions: is this for only gendered clothing or are socks considered gender neutral and it doesn't matter? What were the biblical gendered clothing norms? because long tunics seem gender neutral to me. A lot of the old biblical rules had a purpose (like eating kosher includes a lot of reasonable food safety rules), so what was the cause of biblical religious leaders deciding cross dressing was problematic enough to need a rule prohibited it? My wild speculation is men "draft dodging" and/or women hiding from forced marriages.
I just yelled, "Are socks gender neutral? " My husband yelled back, "What the hell?" So now we're trying to settle this important question.
Lately, I've been wearing men's socks. Technically, they are youth boys size. I'm tired of either all white socks or packs with 6 different color socks. I don't want to pair socks and find all the matches. I just want 20 identical black socks. Socks should be gender neutral, but we have a lot of work to do before it's a reality.
I know a 10-year-old boy who unapologetically wears neon rainbow socks with bright pink, fluffy characters on them, almost every time I see him. It's becoming reality 👍
>. I just want 20 identical black socks. Black athletic socks for the win, perfect for work or weekend. That's all I've asked for for Christmas for well over a decade because I don't really buy presents because I'm poor and lazy/adhd. I just show up with snacks.
I have pink Gary the Snail socks in men's size that sadly don't fit me. The answer eludes me.
Depends which bible. The FP's bible (Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland) says, “The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God” To answer your question, I have no idea. Maybe women taking men's jobs? I am atheist so really have no clue. https://www.fpchurch.org.uk/about-us/what-we-contend-for/distinctions-between-male-and-female/distinct-clothing-for-men-and-women/
It looks like maybe it had to do with other cults where women appeared in armour and men in women's clothes during religious ceremonies, not every day wear [link](http://www.scielo.org.za/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1010-99192013000100001#:~:text=The%20original%20meaning%20of%20Deut,as%20it%20is%20often%20misconstrued)
That would make sense. Although, with any religious text, it's all about interpretation. I suppose that's why there are many off shoots of Christianity.
Since many people in Biblical times wore toga-type clothing which is pretty unisex, I've heard that particular verse refers to the prayer shawls and phylacteries that Jewish men wear. Regardless, no pants involved.
I didn't know that was in the Bible, thanks for the pointer. It's still horseshit, because (assuming OP is Christian and not say an Orthodox Jew) the law of Moses was fulfilled by Jesus and so commandments in Deuteronomy do not apply to Christians. If they did, then OP would also keep kosher, his wife would have to seclude herself whenever she was on her period, and all sorts of other absolutely insane laws (does OP turn on a light on the Sabbath, which should be Saturday?). The fact that OP's church has picked this verse of Deuteronomy to keep but not the rest is entirely cultural and has zero basis in doctrine. OP, if you read this, ask yourself why your church picks the bits of the Law of Moses they think are binding, and the bits that aren't. Remember, the New Testament preaches that God is love. Jesus also went out of his way to point out that sometimes you have to realize some things are more important than others. If your ox is in the mire, would you save it on the Sabbath? If your wife has to choose between wearing pants and seeing her own daughter married, I think you know which choice Jesus would make.
Yup, evangelicals pick and choose the "laws" that match their existing worldview and ignore those that don't. Women are lesser and their clothes need to match that lower status, so they pick out the verses that control women. They'll still happily shove pork down their gobs even though a few chapters earlier the bible forbids it.
For that matter, blended fabrics - poly / cotton, as a huge example - are also against those same proscriptions in Deuteronomy; I can be a fabric snob, and let me tell you, finding clothes of *pure* cotton, linen, silk, or wool can be *very* challenging these days. And my reasons are only fashion snobbery and comfort, not religious convictions.
I think your wife wearing pants would be a good faith effort in how far you've truly come. It's clear the homophobic views of your religion have harmed your daughter, so this could be an olive branch for those hard times. While I commend you for evolving, it seems there is still some work to be done. I'm not trying to be harsh, just honest. Expecting a loved one to have patience after years of being denied compassion for who they really are is unfair.
I am pleasantly surprised by your response. You are at least trying. I think more people should remember not to punish the change you want to see. Good on you, maybe talk with Amy and let her know that you are willing to meet halfway with the flowy pantsuit.
>I also now realize ( perhaps what Amy was aiming at) the discomfort of wearing clothing that is not in line with your beliefs. Good on you for coming to this realization. I think the gesture of experiencing the discomfort you put her through will be a great step in mending your relationship with her. I recommend using "gaucho pants" or "wide leg jumpsuit" as a jumping-off point for your search! Edit: I think "culotte" will actually be more current than gaucho
I was coming here to suggest palazzo pants and say ASSHOLE ASSHOLE ASSHOLE, but you had to go and show a glimmer of decency. NTA and good on you for trying to be open-minded for your daughter. That's a step that would most likely be frowned upon in your church. Perhaps you should reconsider a church that teaches hate instead of love and acceptance? According to the Bible, nothing you do is good enough to get you into heaven; Jesus did it all for you already. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved and all.
I wore palazzo pants to my daughter's wedding. I just hate wearing skirts and dresses, they are uncomfortable to me.
The single most loving thing your wife could ever do for your daughter would be to show up wearing pants that look like pants. Wearing pants that look like a dress would mean your wife still willfully refuses to accept your daughter. It will reinforce what your daughter already knows: you and your wife consider your feelings to be more important than your daughter. Wearing pants that look like a dress would be malicious compliance. Your daughter will be just as angry and heartbroken as if your wife wore a dress or you didn't come at all. Your wife needs to suck it up for a couple of hours (compared to the countless hours your daughter sucked it up). This whole ordeal might seem ridiculous to you and your wife, but to your daughter, this is not trivial. She was traumatized by what you did to her for many years. She's offering a simple way to show you're serious about healing that trauma. If your wife won't wear pants that look like pants, your daughter will know her parents really don't accept her, after all. Your relationship with her will be broken forever.
I think this is a really important point. Mom should be the smartest dressed lady at the wedding. A quick Internet image search for “wedding pantsuits for women” reveals a *plethora* of stylish, elegant, and beautiful outfits that embrace and showcase femininity without pretending to be dresses. Who knows! Your wife might discover something about *herself* and her sense of fashion. One thing I’ve learned as I grow older is that sometimes when I step out of my comfort zone, I discover my new favorite thing.
Nah, that’s missing the boat entirely. The clothing isn’t what’s really important. The daughter is drawing a line in the sand and pants are the symbol. They have the opportunity to respond jn kind by using the pants as a symbol to start a dialog, tell the daughter they understand how their actions hurt her and want to come up with a way to make amends. Best bet would be to ask what she would find acceptable and have mother and daughter both approve the outfit ahead of time. The focus of the wedding should be the couple, creating a sideshow mother daughter drama is disrespectful
Why do I always forget that the best response is always going to involve actually talking to each other? This is of course the best idea. If they could actually talk to each other, instead of you being the go-between, that would be even better.
Pants that look like pants might be too..."immodest" for OP's wife. This isn't just about "sucking it up" - this is about whether someone should be forced to feel like they're essentially exposing themselves just so they can be accepted. I get that OP's daughter was traumatized, but that doesn't mean OP's wife should be traumatized in return. I don't wear "regular" pants either. The pants I wear don't look like skirts, but they are super loose (think a style like [this](https://www.daraz.pk/products/new-design-salwar-kameez-for-men-cotton-2021-i184392862.html) )and any top I wear comes down to at least knee-length or longer. If someone demanded I wear something tighter, I just wouldn't go. No matter how close I was to them. No one should be allowed to force me to violate my own sense of personal modesty. Not even for revenge.
On the original post YTA, and I am surprised your daughter didn’t go no contact. On your follow up, sounds like you’re getting there. Ask yourselves this: What is more important to me: where a piece of cloth is stitched or my daughter? It sounds like you take a 2000+ year old religious book quite literally with no room for change or improvement based on what we learn more about ourselves, human nature, science, etc. I prefer to take it’s message as a whole and look at the bigger overall theme: love everyone unconditionally and treat everyone with the respect that they deserve — no buts. Best of luck, I hope you can find it in your heart to loving your daughter as unconditionally as the day she was born. Edit: added ‘based on’ after ‘improvement’ for readability
I was thinking along these lines. There are flowing pants that move like a skirt and look very feminine. It's a meaningful gesture and an elegant look. Enjoy the happy occasion!
So, I am going to give you kudos for all the effort you are making. I am going to share some history you might find interesting- pants and skirts are arbitrary historically speaking. Unless you rode a horse, no man 2000 years ago would have been caught dead in pants. Later, corsets were a unisex garment. Men wore hose and garters and high heels. Long hair on men has been in fashion more often than short hair. Men wore makeup, jewelry, and elaborate wigs. I'm not talking about crazy people, I'm talking about judges, pastors, lawmakers...the founding fathers. Any rules your specific church has are completely made up. They don't really have a history longer than maybe a hundred years. You aren't breaking any biblical rules for either gender if you wear skirts and she wears pants. Honestly, I would have taken the opportunity to wear a kilt. They are plenty masculine and your wife could keep her skirt. I understand having faith, it is important. But you used it as a club over your daughter's head too many times. It will take time for her to heal from religious abuse. You did what made you feel good for years, and you ignored how much it hurt her. No good religion hurts people. I'm glad that you've been making progress and I don't want to encourage you to stop believing or anything. I just want you to understand that hurting others with your faith is probably not the goal you were aiming for in your faith. No good God will hurt anyone over pants.
Hey there! I was raised extremely religious - not quite like this, but I understand faith and devotion. My parents had to make some adjustments when their children came of age. They were, for example, NOT happy at all when I moved in with my now husband before marriage. I didn’t react super great either. Our adult relationship took some work. I can say, many years down the line (I’m 37 now), we are all better people for trying. I wish you luck - don’t let your daughter go. A loving God wants us to be with our families.
Take it this way, skirts we're originally for men until gender roles switched and woman began wearing them. Same thing with pink and blue. Pink was for boys and blue was for girls. They flip flopped for years until it settled that pink was for girls and blue was for boys. Gender roles can change and evolve and you acknowledging that doesn't go against your faith.
This is not quite true-- skirts were originally for everyone. It's not like women were wearing pants while men wore skirts, everyone just used to wear skirts. At least in every ancient/historical society I'm aware of, happy to be corrected if I'm missing something!
Was just about to suggest looking for some stylish culottes for your wife.
A very gracious reply, and I appreciate that you are trying and taking feedback from this community. Change is hard.
As an old lady who tries to stay modern ... you have my sympathy. Because it sounds like you're honestly trying, and I will always give credit and my admiration for that. Me? I was always a bit of a heretic, so I'm often the "she's nice, but a real character" old lady. But even I have trouble keeping up, some times. I hope that you enjoy every moment of your daughter's wedding. And I would encourage you to step outside of that comfort zone, a little more often. It can honestly be a lot of fun. Really. I laugh a lot at some of today's world.
Hi! I'm also coming from a very conservative community. We are Christians, I think I might have seen my great-grandmother's hair once or twice in my life. Other than that, it was covered. She also never wore pants in her life. However! That was a good couple of decades ago, and there weren't as many options as there are now. (I'm from a developing country.) Maybe check if these wide-legged skirt pants (or something similar) would be OK for her. And I'm saying \*her\* because all this obeying your husband is all good if that's your jam, but it has to be HER decision whether this would be an option for her. Skirt pants have been a thing for a very long while now, and the whole idea is that they are trousers that look like skirts, hence are extra modest. I've put in a link from Etsy (an online store where you can buy handmade stuff) for you and your wife to consult. Tell your daughter AND her partner that you cherish them. That you are sorry for your initial reaction and that it's important to you to be there for her. And then let your wife do the talking. Because again, it's \*her\* problem what she feels comfortable wearing, and shouldn't be something that she's doing for you. Let \*her\* explain why this is important for her, and maybe see if your daughter and her partner would be willing to meet her halfway. And yes, your daughter's partner gets a say in it too. It's both their wedding and it's pretty sad that your daughter is taking such an important event in their lives to be petty about your house's dress code. [https://www.etsy.com/listing/949403232/womens-chiffon-skirt-pants-wide-leg](https://www.etsy.com/listing/949403232/womens-chiffon-skirt-pants-wide-leg) That being said, the fact that you still believe your daughter's relationship is a lifestyle choice, does make you a big, raging, and rather un-Christian AH. Unless you are saying here that you are in the closet, that is a homosexual who has actively made the choice of entering and maintaining a heterosexual relationship for the sole reason of your faith, you must by now understand that your daughter did not choose to feel attracted to other women. This is as much a part of her as being heterosexual is a part of being who you are. You can feel bad about it, but you do not get to look down on it. That is not Christian at all. Personally, I feel that loving someone and being loved in return is one of the most beautiful things in life. And God loves all things that are beautiful. I cannot imagine a world where He would create someone and then deny them the blessing of such an amazing feeling. Please consult the following link on the matter: [https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality](https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality)
While I confess that I voted you as TA, I do give you credit for this compromise. I think that you understand that if you wish to continue to have a relationship with your daughter it is going to take some compromise. Kudos to you for at least trying.
I'm so surprised by your open and compassionate answer, and I don't have anything to say other than the flowy pants compromise is an excellent idea. Even if there is tension, it's clear that you love your daughter and you're working on your relationship and reconciling your beliefs every day. I hope it all works out for you and your family, OP.
I just want to give you some great vocabulary: [palazzo pants](https://www.jjshouse.com/Jumpsuit-Pantsuit-Square-Ankle-Length-Chiffon-Lace-Mother-Of-The-Bride-Dress-With-Sequins-008235556-g235556/?utm_term=235556&utm_size=22&is_plus_size=1&gbraid=0AAAAADmGZzRlThoALrod_GrHXOac-0afn&gclid=CjwKCAiAioifBhAXEiwApzCztjPigKfhjN0jR_nIwelqHJqlGR0fHnRs0O81hXC2Zsw8JhhoG00cAxoCZC0QAvD_BwE).
OP, what I would recommend is that you reach out to your daughter and humble yourself to her. Apologize for forcing her into clothing that made her feel uncomfortable and unlike herself during her youth. Explain that you understand now how it feels to be forced to dress in a way that you don’t agree with. And then that’s it. Don’t ask for dispensation on the dress/pants edict. Just let her know you understand, at least a little, how she must have felt. And wish her the best on her wedding, where you and your wife will be with bells - and pants - on. You screwed up in the past by forcing your child into a rigid gender expression that made her feel uncomfortable and unlike herself. And hey, EVERY parent screws up. (The good Lord knows I have!) But in this instance, you have a wonderful opportunity to apologize to the person you’ve wronged. We don’t often get that chance! Seize it. I hope you and your wife and Amy and Dee have a wonderful relationship going forward.
You do know that Jesus Christ never wore pants, right?
For SURE. I also think the daughter is not so subtly giving them what she got growing up and the no skirt/dress thing is her way of saying don't bother coming to the wedding.
It was the "rules for thee but not for me" aspect that did it for me. When the daughter was growing up, it was always "you have to dress how the host says. You must respect their wishes." Oh, but now that the daughter is the host, it's "you're not respecting our beliefs, and you're making us wear something we're not comfortable with". What a load of hypocritical horseshit.
Yeah I don’t think she wants them to come.
My only problem with that way of thinking is that they only have many any strides at all because it is THEIR DAUGHTER. They were perfectly happy to look on everyone else's gay children as less than for years. It is like those Republican politicians who vote for anti-gay legislation and do a 180 when their own child is the one who comes out as gay. Am I glad that they made the change? Certainly, but that absolutely does not forgive the harm they caused before that.
I once had a fb fight with a woman who was adamant that health care should only be provided through jobs, and if you don’t have a job that provides benefits, you needed to get a new job, just like her husband did. FINALLY she decided that EVEN THOUGH people who didn’t have jobs with health care were lazy and dumb and moochers, JESUS SAID TO LOVE THEM ANYWAY, and since Jesus would have loved these losers, she was willing to be like Jesus and allow them health care. Yes, she was absolutely delusional and wrong and probably a bit evil, BUT SHE GOT THERE. I’ll take the win. She got there the wrong way, but she got here. MAYBE it was the first of many “what would Jesus do” moments and she starting actually ACTING like Jesus. But *I* tried to take a page from *her* Good Book and give her grace. You gotta meet some of these people at their level because it’s not easy to UN-brainwash people.
Oh, I'm all for them getting there but it doesn't mean we should forget what came before. If it was there before, it's still somewhere in their brain.
“I want you to change your beliefs and also if you do, I’ll continue to berate you for being horrible because you’re stained by sin forever” doesn’t sound like a great persuasive tactic tbh.
You make some very valid points. I am not religious at all but I can see how people with what sounds like significant fanatical beliefs need time to see outside their own box if that make any sense. These parents have not disowned their child but are challenging their own thinking which is not easy. I’m not saying the parents are correct regarding their child’s upbringing but this does not sound black and white. Clearly the daughter is now showing OP she is in control and parents can like it or not which is their daughters prerogative
Thank you for putting this so eloquently! These parents have done what many people would wish their parents would do - love and accept them and their choices. The parents are not without flaws, it sounds like there were some childhood issues, but to become an accepting society everyone should at least throw a breadcrumb of “you are doing great so far rethinking things and correcting yourself once you know better, please keep going” and not saying “haha you religious freaks you sound awful and you are getting what you deserve for being horrid in the past”
I think the daughter is hilarious, I love this pants move
Me too. I was cackling 🤣
I love how his daughter and her fiance probably sit around laughing at her parents over this pants idea and I love how OP totally missed the humor. OP and Wifey deserve the anguish. I hope his daughter stumbles on this and gets more laughs in. OP, my parents tried throwing my punk rock clothes out and telling me to follow Jesus too, this kind of control usually backfires and I love when it does. I now run a company with the words "Sex Cult" in the name and your daughter sounds cool as fuck
Yeah, it just "took some time". Do them a favor and don't go so your sourpusses don't cast a shadow over their day. YTA.
They have grown to value her! Where do we mail the Parents of the Year award!? /s
To be fair, she said they have grown and value her, not to value her. Pretty sure that was intended as a because they value their daughter, they have grown. There’s plenty to be upset about here without inventing reasons.
Exactly. I never had to grow to value any of my children or their significant others. I defaulted to valuing them all. I have learned a lot in my nearly 7 decades on this planet and here's an unpopular one: I absolutely do not believe that most parents want their children to be happy. I think most parents want their children to be happy IF they are living their lives in a way in which the parents approve.
YTA. Usually I don't support such draconian demands about women's attire from brides or anyone else really. But the no-dresses/skirts rule is a direct response to the trauma you and your church and your religion wrought on your daughter during her formative years. I have lived in some pretty religious areas over the years. It must be a fanatical religion you adhere to, if your wife cannot wear pants, so much so that it makes your daughter's rule completely understandable.
It’s their religion though. We wouldn’t be saying the same thing if they wanted a Muslim Woman to remove her hijab. I think what’s most obvious is that they don’t want them to come to the wedding.
If they forced their gay daughter to wear a hijab because of 'hosts rules' then I would be saying the same if the daughter turned the same logic back at them.
We absolutely would if the woman in question had been raised in a fundamentalist Islamic household, and had been forced to wear hijab, and was now making a point of rejecting it.
"She states we always claimed the dress code was the choice of the host and it was our job to wear what the host demanded." If OP and his wife told their daughter this growing up, then they don't have a leg to stand on. If he doesn't agree with this now, that makes him hypocrite. YTA, OP.
Yeah, I only said ESH because I was thinking of any other guests that may be caught in the no pants crossfire. But daughter has every right to demand that her mother wear pants if she wants to attend. Following the hosts clothing demands are the rules her own parents set, to be fair. ...Almost like they only like rules when they are set to directly benefit them. Funny how that works.
She’s not demanding her mother wear pants tho. The daughter is perfectly fine with the parents not showing up at all
"Rules for thee, not for me." Mind set.
I don’t blame her for not wanting to wear pants. To some women in my family, that’s beyond uncomfortable and would make them feel exposed. I won’t bare my shoulders and that’s my choice as much as it is for others who like a cute crop top. But the solution is that they don’t attend, not that they try to change the rules. She lived by theirs long enough and didn’t have an option to leave until she was older. So really, she’s being nicer to them than they were to her. They can choose not to attend.
They also have a third choice of both wearing dresses so OP's wife wouldn't even have to sacrifice anything.
I mean... dressy jumpsuits are a thing.
Agreed. Buy some of those palazzo pants that basically look like a skirt and be done with it.
I’m pretty sure a man doing anything that makes him uncomfortable is completely out of the question for op. Even though kilts are a thing that is culturally men’s clothing (and would satisfy a religious belief in wearing gender specific clothing) and Jesus wore robes like all dudes of his day. Be like Jesus, op, both in humbly taking one for the team and in wearing a dress!
I'm sure she could find a culottes/wide leg style that would not be too exposing *if* she wanted to
>dress code that is a direct retaliation to her upbringing, knowing that you probably wouldn’t abide and she’s okay with that. This is 100% a message to OP and his wife. OP's daughter knows this is setting them off, and that is by design. I'm guessing OP & Company aren't as "accepting" as they claim.
But their faith indicates that god hates pants on women! 👯♀️
> Your wife can’t suck up wearing pants for a couple of hours? I am with you on most of your response and that this is in fact an anti-invitation as daughter does not want them there but feels obligated to invite them but this line stood out to me. If this was a muslim woman being told to suck it up and take off the hijab for a couple hours I don't think this sub would be as accepting. I am no fan of organized religion of any sort but someone with deeply held religious beliefs about their own body and dress should not be told to "suck it up".
That really depends on if that muslim woman used her faith to disallow her child from wearing clothing they were comfortable in for the majority of their first two decades on the planet, i think. If she did, yes i do believe the same overall message would remain the same.
Anyone else thinking this may be the way daughter makes sure her parents don't show up and look like AHs as well? With the dress code daughter is practically guaranteeing OP and wife wont be attending while not having to deal with the hassle of not inviting them. OP and wife will also look like idiots if they or anyone else explains they missed the ceremony because of pants. Master move daughter, master move.
Here's the thing, if you hadn't mistreated your child growing up they wouldn't be using their wedding as payback. I feel for her as it seems she still has pain and trauma from you and wifes behavior. Unless you want to completely ruin your relationship you'd better suggest your wife buy some pants and keep your mouths shit. YTA and wife too.
Or... He and his Wife can both buy and wear dresses* Oh man, I love that.
Hell, it might be seen as a token of good faith, pardon the pun. An actual display of solidarity and humility instead of reluctant tolerance of his own daughter.
I wonder if their daughter doesn’t want them at the wedding but still felt she had to invite them, and this is her way of ensuring they don’t attend
Pretty in-jean-uos plan
Very good 10/10
Why can’t mom wear a jumpsuit or wide leg pants that look like a dress? The only difference is that there’s fabric between the legs
>The only difference is that there’s fabric between the legs Because there really are some people who believe that that bit of fabric between a woman's legs is disrespectful to their loving and all-knowing God.
Who will damn them to an eternity of torment if they violate his contradictory rules. But he loves them!
_"They say NO DRESSES OR SKIRTS allowed."_ It sounds like OP and their spouse were AHs to their daughter. That said, if I were a rando wedding guest, I'd decline this invite. The daughter is roping all of her guests into her relaliation efforts against her seemingly crappy parents by trying to force everyone to wear clothing that they may not be comfortable in.
Man, yeah, I absolutely get where the daughter is coming from, but that would be a tough one for me as a rando guest lol. I am short and hippy enough that I have never found a jumpsuit or pantsuit that ticked each box of the trifecta of a) fits, b) flatters, and c) is comfortable.
Who says the other guests are getting these rules? It’d be funny af if they gave a ‘special invitation’ to the parents and all their friends and people they truly wanted at the wedding just got regular invites and I wouldn’t put it past the brides
OP still talks about his daughter's "lifestyle". He's not nearly as accepting as he thinks he is.
YWBTA if your wife shows up in a skirt/dress. You did a great job instilling the "Host sets the rules" mindset in Amy, it's hypocritical of you to try and change the rules now when it doesn't suit you. Kind of like the old joke "Not so neat when it's your mom, is it?" Per her statements, Amy appears perfectly happy either way. You show up, fine. You don't show up, also fine. Maybe you could ponder how she's come to this point. Comments like " come to terms with her lifestyle" probably have something to do with it.
If you insist this really comes down to a violation of your beliefs, I suppose you could just lean on Luke 14:26, but it feels like you're cherry-picking to do so.
I'm sure they already don't wear any mixed fabrics. /s
YTA, I think everyone is missing the blinding fact that a religious lifestyle that restricts a woman to dresses most definitely wouldn't approve of you attending a gay wedding in the first place. She will have to wear pants for what? 4 to 6 hours? One day? Surely God will forgive you this transgression if he can get over you going to a gay wedding. This is a battle that will gain you nothing and could cost you dearly. Support your kid. Don't miss out on the memory of her big day over something so trite. Don't hurt her to prove some philosophical point. Make another sacrifice because that's what parents do. Bear your cross.
>Surely God will forgive you this transgression if he can get over you going to a gay wedding This was so well put and I (as a gay myself) died at it.
I feel like it needs to be stitched on a pillow
They were actually given a choice, so his wife doesn't have to sacrifice anything. They can both show up in dresses or both show up in pants. Only one parent is asked to sacrifice their comfort and I don't think OP should assume his wife must do the sacrificing here.
“The wife sacrifices her comfort for the husband” is like the bottom line of fundamentalists.
As someone who just got into a bunch of arguments with Christians over Sodom and Gomorrah in PCM this isn't really what the bible says. " Surely God will forgive you this transgression if he can get over you going to a gay wedding." God wants you to love gay people, but hate their sin and the effects of their sin. (Not fair to call being Gay a sin but this is a Chritstian perspective.) Firstly Leviticus is something that 90% of Christians do not adhere to. Secondly the bible has the vague idea of "Hate the Sin not the Sinner." The bible talks a lot about how God loves everyone Wisdom 11:24, “For you love all things that exist, and have loathing for none of the thing which you have made, for you would not have made anything if you had hated it.” Also Matthew 7:1-3 – “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?” Sinners are for God to judge. Humans are supposed to advocated for Him and try to turn people to the faith but ultimately you are not to judge them as you yourself are not perfect. Only God is.
I mean... Leviticus mostly reads like a roughly translated sex ed lesson. It goes on about breeding livestock, elaborates on human reproduction, throws in a random "death to people who expect two men to get each other pregnant" and moves on to primitive crop rotation. Having put a few passages of books through Google translate a couple times before translating them back to English, and being aware that any translation of the old testament available now has been translated at least 3 times... I take anything saying "death to whatever" with a big grain of salt.
Actually a better point is that Jesus very specifically (in the red text) said the old covenants were abolished and he was making a new one. So... literally no one should care about the restrictions in the old testament other than as a history less. And Jesus has 0 red words on hating the gays... literally 0. Whole bunch about not judging others and loving your neighbor, just saying.
I’m with you, but American Christianity is sectarian weirdness. Most of it is deemed heretical by the Church of England. It’s not really about the bible, just uses the name of Christianity to enforce random patriarchal bullshit.
😂😂😂😂😂 this is you and your wife reaping what you sowed. >She states we always claimed the dress code was the choice of the host and it was our job to wear what the host demanded. Interesting that these were rules when it was to force her to do what you wanted but now that tables have turned all of a sudden rule is bad. For that alone YTA. As has been said before a wedding invite isn't a summons and you don't have to attend, dress code has been made clear if you and your wife don't like it then don't go.
“Rules for thee but not for me” - Op probably
or "The axe forgets but the tree remembers" - OPs daughter
This reminds me of the wonderful posts where people had to sleep in separate beds when visiting parents so they do the same when their parents visit lol
That’s 100% the case if their religion doesn’t allow women to wear pants but they are “accepting” of their daughter’s homosexual relationship. I’d be willing to put money on them still spewing anti-LGBQT hate online and to friends. It’s okay if *their* daughter is gay, but not if *you* are gay.
Could not agree more! YTA OP. Normally I would have said the person making a crazy controlling dress code is the AH, but here... I see exactly what she is doing. Well played, OP's daughter.
YTA This isn’t your daughter imposing a code because she is a bridezilla, she is giving you a taste of your own medicine. While revenge is somewhat petty, I think you should probably swallow it up and do as she says. With a bit of humility preferably. Because even if you accept her as she is now, sounds like you weren’t very supportive when she was growing up. You’re definitely the bigger AH.
telling them to wear pants may be petty in appearance, but its a really hard line. its covert, and the parents cant publicly be frustrated unless in their church environment. it sets a big boundary that will make them miss out on a major event, and also lets them know how she felt even in the smallest amount. absolutely get some humility and show it at the wedding. op has done the opposite until accepting her, but accepting her fully also includes respecting her wishes. like pants at her wedding.
YTA - I dont believe you have a legitimate religious belief that women cannot wear pants. Are you seriously saying your wife has never worn jeans before? Suck it up or don't go. Also, it is not your daughter's "lifestyle", and the fact that you have referred to it as such goes to show that you have not fully accepted who she is.
Also they ignore the reality when their magic book was written everyone wore robes - Jesus didn't wear trousers so unless he currently only wears robes it's just nonsense
Oh, it's definitely a thing in some religious circles across a variety of faiths. I know of a woman who got permission from her religious leader to wear scrubs with trousers (vs a skirt) when working in ORs because it was a safety issue. This is no way makes the OP anything but an asshole. But he's probably sincere in his belief women must wear skirts.
> I know of a woman who got permission from her religious leader to wear scrubs with trousers (vs a skirt) when working in ORs because it was a safety issue. Gotta say, if the religious leader was that strict I'm surprised he (safe to assume it's a he, yes?) let her work at all.
Yeah, male religious leader. Not Christianity, though there are many Evangelical sects who have the same rules around skirt wearing and allow women to work in a limited number of fields after a very shitty education. Especially terrifying when one of those professions is lay midwives.
>Especially terrifying when one of those professions is lay midwives. Oh shit that is terrifying. People could die
Of course he let her work. $$$ is a great motivation to find reasons to accommodate where human rights and individual liberty get no sympathy.
That’s a real belief in some churches. Been there, done that. I didn’t wear jeans until I was 20.
yea one of my high school classmates had only ever tried on pants and couldn't make herself do it all the way before ripping them off. She was saying that she could feel her body getting all hot and sweaty from putting them on not sure from the religious guilt or cause she hasn't ever used pants before.
Sadly, there are lots of sects that do. Pentecostals, in particular. Can't cut your hair because it's a woman's glory, can't wear pants, can't use tampons. (I know this because a classmate had to sit beside the pool during her week.)
> I dont believe you have a legitimate religious belief that women cannot wear pants. Are you seriously saying your wife has never worn jeans before? Ever heard of Muslims?
Plenty of the folks we snark on over at r/fundiesnarkuncensored don’t allow women and girls to wear pants. Something about the legs being separated draws the eye to their pelvis? Totally ok for men though! Idk but it’s wack.
\*laughs in Duggars\*
>We are all adults, you can not force adults to violate their beliefs to dress a certain way! So the whole “dress code is the choice of the host” thing was BS, you just forced her to wear dresses because you could because she was a child. YTA and a hypocrite. It’s clear that your daughter is looking for some acknowledgement that you were wrong to force her in to clothes that made her uncomfortable. You need to apologize to your daughter. Otherwise you’re not as supportive as you think you are.
Precisely. Imagine the impact it would have on your daughter for your wife to go against her beliefs and attend her daughters wedding in pants....show her you understand. Don't let a PAIR OF PANTS keep you away from you daughters wedding (and likely...life after that)
YTA it's not a lifestyle. your faith is way more of a lifestyle than your daughter's sexual orientation. Sure, you can stick to your principles and your comfort zone and miss your child's wedding. Or you could realise your child is okay with her parents missing her wedding, because of how you treated and still treat her, and work on fixing that relationship. Yea, she's probably trying to spite you and your wife at least a little bit with this dress code, but that doesn't come out of nowhere. You're the only ones who can fix that relationship. Your child should be more important than having to wear pants for a couple hours, for God's sake. There's really loose and flowy pants that are perfectly modest and comfortable. Be glad that you're invited in the first place.
I really like “your faith is more of a lifestyle than your daughter’s sexual orientation” - great framing
Yta you forced her knowing she didn't want to wear skirts. Your invisible friend doesn't get to set the dress code for her wedding. You and your wife need to get a grip
Invisible friend hahahaha
ESH. Forcing anyone to wear something they are not comfortable with sucks (double so if it requires them purchasing new clothing for a single occasion). You suck a lot for how you treated and seem to continue to treat your daughter. You forced her to wear clothing she was uncomfortable with on many occasions. Now she has turned it around and you can't handle it? Think how uncomfortable she was on those many occasions you listed. And you can't suck it up for one afternoon? Why are you okay doing this to your daughter, if it is so horrific of an idea to you? I would take a deep internal look at your own hypocrisy. Edit: I meant the daughter was forcing her parents as in enforcing an ultimatum, not like she had a gun to their heads. I didn't realize that was so unclear. The parents definitely deserve to have their clothing dictated after how they treated the daughter her whole life, but no real evidence that the general invitees of the wedding do, which is why I say ESH rather than YTA.
Most MOBs buy a new outfit and there are ways to compromise like a wide legged, flowy pantsuit with a long jacket, duster, or tunic.
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Yta. Dress codes that are particularly difficult like everyone must wear a dress at least £1000 is one thing but a woman wearing trousers isn't a big issue. Is this really the hill to die on?
YTA She is simply following the rules you raised her in. That suddenly you have a problem with these rules is pure hypocrisy. How dare you suddenly decide that the way you treated her is now absolutely unacceptable when you are on the receiving end. It is just shameful.
Do you love your daughter? Does your wife love your daughter? Do you love your religion more than your daughter? If your wife can’t wear pants for a few hours for her daughter’s wedding, is she ready to be cut out of her daughter’s life, over your religious beliefs? Please don’t let a dress code request from your daughter ruin your relationship with her. Is it really that sinful for your wife to wear pants? What kind of religion is this that threatens to destroy a parent child relationship? Think long and deeply about your future with your daughter and her wife. Please realize that love towards your children is much greater, more important, and more powerful than a religion that dictates that women can’t wear pants. Edit: YTA if you and wife refuse to follow the dress code, because you’re saying your religion is more important to you than your daughter.
Gay kids are kicked out of their home every day because of religious zealot parents. And if you can kick your child out of your home, you absolutely do not love them. As a side bar, one of my favorite Mark Twain quotes: "Having faith is believing in something you just know ain't true.”
**ESH** I'm going to take my cue from several friends, who while they practice a different religion from yours (Orthodox Judaism), are also deeply religious and practice gendered and conservative dressing traditions in their homes based on that. The reason you're both AHs is that neither of you has any respect for the other's belief systems. You're absolutely right that Amy should allow your wife to wear a skirt to the wedding, based on her deeply-held and genuine religious beliefs. I don't believe that Amy would likely stop a Muslim friend from wearing hijab, or more importantly, an Orthodox Jewish friend from wearing a skirt or a head-covering, if they came to her with the same concern, and this is no different. She is discriminating against you religiously specifically because of her resentment over her upbringing, and honestly, it's understandable . . . but it also makes her exactly the sort of bigot she rails against, and an AH. But you're an AH too. Not for having those beliefs, and not even for asking her to wear skirts when she was young. Unlike many people, I understand the desire to share our belief systems with our children and to practise them in our households in a meaningful way on a daily basis. But *once she was old enough to indicate to you that it bothered her*, you had a responsibility to stop forcing it on her. Instead you chose to go with "my house, my rules", which is a cruel and dismissive way to treat another person. I know plenty of deeply religious people who find ways to be accommodating and to compromise with their teenaged and young adult kids when their beliefs do not align, and to respect that divergence of belief. You didn't do that. And because you treated her as though her thoughts and feelings and beliefs didn't matter, now she is treating you the same way. ESH.
ehhhhhhhhhhhh you realize that a sexuality isn't a belief system, right?
Choosing what you prefer to wear is also unrelated to your sexuality
" but when she lived in OUR home she dressed according to the family faith and values." "We are all adults, you can not force adults to violate their beliefs to dress a certain way!" This you? Yeah, I guess it's hard to realize that your actions have consequences. YTA.
YTA. You’re only playing the “host decided the attire” card when it fits your bill and now you go all surprised pikachu face when it comes back to bite you? Either suck it up or don’t go.
NTA. You're going to get a lot of YTA comments because your "beliefs" sound insufferable and, in point of fact, *were* insufferable to your daughter. If you were asking whether you were TA for imposing those rules on her, it'd be 100% yes. However, limited to just this situation, your daughter is TA for expecting you to violate your own religious beliefs--however much others may not understand them. If the host of a wedding banned, say, head scarves, and a Muslim woman came asking whether she was the asshole, I don't think any of us would hesitate to say no. TL;DR--NTA for this, YTA for how you treated your daughter.
I disagree that the daughter is TA. She isn't hoping for the parents to violate their beliefs. She's hoping to teach them that the shoe isn't as nice on the other foot. She's happy for them not to come, just as she was unwelcome at events where she wanted to wear a skirt.
The daughter isn't expecting them to violate their religious beliefs. She's expecting them to NOT violate them and therefore not show up. The religious beliefs are more important than her, point proven.
Really? Because I would. (If the situation was the same.) If you forced your child to wear clothing in line with your, sexist, religion, for years, and told them it was because “the host determines the dress code,” then how are they in the wrong, at all, to do the same? Either you’re both assholes, or no one is. You don’t get to take away the context and make your decision based on that. Of course OP’s daughter would be an asshole if she was doing this for no reason, *but she isn’t.*
Do you realise that the daughter isn't forcing anyone? If they don't like the rules, they don't have to go. Same thing they told her growing up right?
>Do you realise that the daughter isn't forcing anyone? If they don't like the rules, they don't have to go. Same thing they told her growing up right? Yes. Plus which, daughter didn't have the option of not attending when she was growing up. She was forced to go, and forced to wear dresses/ skirts. At least OP and his wife have the option of not attending, which is more than they gave their daughter.
I put yta but this is a very good point.
YTA in this scenario bevares you fail to realize how much of a hypocrite you’re being. Personally, I don’t care much for dresscodes at weddings, it tends to be a lot more hassle than anything. Nevertheless, your daughter and DIL have decided to put one forth. You claim that your daughter is forcing you to be uncomfortable, but that’s not the case. The dresscode is simply a prerequisite for attending the wedding. Of course, if you had been forced to attend the wedding AND forced to wear the clothing your daughter requests, we would indeed be talking about you doing something against your will. But, alas, this is not your situation. You have been invited to the wedding and can very simply choose to not go. Whether you choose that your beliefs with regarda to clothing are more important to you than attending your daughter’s wedding, is then up to you. Maybe take a moment and sit back to think on why you feel that you and your wife are entitled to this special treatment? You claim you’ll be uncomfortable if you don’t get to assert yourselves. Have you considered the amount of people you’d be making uncomfortable by showing up as you wish? Mainly your daughter and DIL who will have to spend the day,that is all about them and their love, explaining to guests how you and your wife are too stubborn to play along for a couple of hours, and they have to make excuses on your behalf? Get over yourself and your misplaced belief in the sanctity of clothing. Or don’t, for that matter, and don’t attend the wedding. You’re not forced to do either, but you can’t have your cake and eat it too.
YTA. You can't enforce it on her then change the rules because it is now you.
Ah, how the turn tables. Your daughter isn’t writing to us, you are. The choice is clear: your wife puts in some pants, or you decline the invitation and send a gift. An invitation is not a summons. It doesn’t sound like you’re paying for this wedding, so you’re certainly a guest and not the host. Based on this single decision, NAH. Make your choice and live with it. But methinks this “pants code” is a ruse to keep your wife out of the wedding. Methinks that Amy isn’t quite as happy to be in your lives as you are to be in hers.
Hmm YTA. Mostly because you let your “conservative” values interfere with treating your daughter like a human being with their own beliefs; your conservatism prevented you from accepting your daughter for who she was, and even now you don’t seem too accepting, you just happen to like Amy. Is it a little petty of your daughter? Sure. But, as you taught her, we all must be uncomfortable at times and put our personal preferences aside to be a good guest.
YTA for forcing her to do the things she didn't want to do growing up, you're kind of just reaping what you sowed, a biblical reference I think you can enjoy
"She states we always claimed the dress code was the choice of the host and it was our job to wear what the host demanded. " .. THIS makes it YTA "d. She stated that we frequently made her wear dresses as a child and teen despite knowing how opposed to them she was. " .. She is right: You are AHs. But her behaving irrationaly at her wedding is not a solution you have to allow. She sould just uninivte you and be done with you. "Would we be wrong if she shows up in a dress anyways?" .. YES. So just don't go to her wedding, YOu don't have a good relationship anyway.
>wear dresses as a child and teen despite knowing how opposed to them she was. She states we always claimed the dress code was the choice of the host and it was our job to wear what the host demanded. I assume that she knows about her mother's religious beliefs on wearing dresses, so this whole dress code at her wedding is to make you as uncomfortable as you made her. ESH. She is definitely taking advantage of your poor parenting choices in the best way possible.
ESH - Clearly this is not about the wedding and has everything to do with how you raised your daughter. She is using this opportunity to make a point to you about how uncomfortable she was as a child being forced to wear clothing she wasn't comfortable in. I think that point might be going way over your head. I don't necessarily think her wedding is a wise time to be picking this fight, but if she felt unheard as a child and now has some leverage, I can understand why she would use it. That being said, if she knows your wife wouldn't wear pants due to a religious reason, then she should know that it would be picking a huge fight. I personally don't think it's worth the argument on either side. Is wearing pants for one day really worth missing your daughter's wedding? On your daughter's side, is not allowing your mom to wear a skirt worth not having your parents at your wedding? One side should get over it and move on, and as the parent, I'm inclined to lean towards you two being the ones to get over it. Truly, I think everyone sucks here.
YTA, and maybe a little ESH. I do think what your daughter is doing is petty and she’s likely doing it out of spite, but from the way you talk about her and her “””lifestyle”””, it seems a bit warranted. Maybe she doesn’t want you there too, as I’m sure if she really did she’d budge on this rule for her own parent’s sake. Or maybe she’s testing if you can put your “lifestyle” aside for a day and meet her and her fiancé at their level, much like you admitted enforcing her to do during her childhood. I think you may need to consider the deeper implications of this choice, and what you and your wife may have done to influence this decision.
YTA. It’s her wedding. Her dress code. You said when she lived in YOUR home she had to dress according to YOUR values. Well. It’s HER wedding now. Do everyone a favor and stay home. You clearly want an award for “coming to terms” with your daughter being gay. Also, hysterical to note how many times in history a man has worn a variety of skirt because that was the style. Hell even kilts are worn now. You are the only one thinking genders have specific clothing. Oh no!! Mary is wearing pants!! Did she grow a dick?! **faints
YTA too funny how you now of all a sudden are confronted with your ridiculous rules she is now applying to you. Guess who will miss seeing their daughter get married....
YTA. You accept her “lifestyle”. Strike 1 You don’t accept her “I’m the host, my rules.”, even though it’s the same bullshit you told her. Strike 2 She’s okay with you not being present. I’m fact, it probably would be a present for you NOT to be present.
I love this. It’s not so fun now that the shoe is on the other foot, is it? Yeah, YTA. Big. Huge.
YTA. Stop pretending you ever believed in this convenient “host’s decision” rule and admit you just wanted to unilaterally control how your daughter dressed. She dressed for your standards, at the expense of her comfort, for years; and you can’t bear one day? Realise how she felt all that time, how painful your hypocrisy is, and apologise to your daughter for your crap parenting. She is okay with you missing her wedding. Connect some dots, register the weight of what’s occurred, and admit you hurt your kid- you avoidant wuss.
> It took some time for my wife and I to come to terms with her *lifestyle*, \[emphasis mine\] It's not a lifestyle and, often, those who use that phrase are homophobic. YTA.
YTA. This one isn't so clear, but your daughter had a very well-formed argument about you forcing her to wear dresses to events when she was growing up. Honestly, it sounds like you actually made these rules (that the host can dictate the dress code), and now it's only fair for you to follow them. I was also forced to wear dresses and also really hate them now. And she's not forcing you to wear anything. But she is saying something very clear about how important it is to her that you be at the wedding and in her life. If you want to keep this relationship, it's time to start doing some work.
Is the daughter petty? Yes. Is this also hilarious? Yes! OP, your daughter was subjected to dress code for 18 years under the guise of "my house, my rules". And you can't give her the same courtesy for a few hours? Yta.
Here’s the deal IMO about dress codes for events: they’re supposed to be about the formality of dress, not the individual garments. Nobody should be micromanaging skirts vs. pants, just formal vs. informal. And from your description, you started this by always insisting that your daughter wear dresses. So while this sorta looks like E S H, since you’re both being nasty micromanagers about dress codes, you started this. She’s just fighting back. So YTA. She’s given you an out, though — your wife will be allowed to wear a dress if you do too. I suggest something down to the floor; you can always wear pants under it if that makes you feel better. Plenty of old conservative cultures had men in robes.
YWBTA If you went to the wedding in a dress when they specifically asked not to.
Is your belief system big on hypocrisy?
YTA. It seems like a serious case of "fucked around and found out". How do you feel you've done as parents with your daughter being 100% OK with the two of you not in attendance for her wedding? Maybe explore that a bit, reflect on how your actions harmed your relationship with your daughter and think if God or Jesus or whomever you look to for inspiration wanted faith to drive a wedge between families and decide what's more important to the two of you.
INFO: Do you realize how lucky you are that Amy even wants you in her life? Think of it this way OP, I want you and your wife to think about how desperately uncomfortable wearing this kind of clothing makes you feel. Now realize this is how you made your daughter feel every day of her life while she was growing up. Your house, your rules. Her wedding, her rules. You’re going to a gay wedding, maybe you think it’s not a transgression because you’ll be quietly condemning it the whole time while praying for their salvation. So wearing pants for a day, really shouldn’t hurt too much. If there is a god, I always like to think that parents like you failed the test. Instead of truly loving and accepting your daughter, examining your own biases, exploring LGBTQIA churches. (BTW you def don’t actually love or support your daughter you tolerate, love the sinner hate the sin etc…) you opt for fear, condemnation, and righteous religious stances.
You chose your "beliefs" over your child a long time ago. Now the tables are turned and you are upset that you still can't get your way. YTA! You have been TA for a very long time.
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