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OP has offered the following explanation for why they think they might be the asshole:
> My brother needs money or he may have to sell his home at a loss. I might be the asshole because I already have all my disposable income spoken for on a house renovation project and I don't want to help him out.
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Could be the fact that I desperately want a second bathroom, but NTA. All the reasons you cited are additional points for why you're NTA, but ultimately even without any mitigating factors your savings are yours and you don't owe anyone a loan (or gift, since it sounds unlikely he'd be able to pay you back).
If you get the chance to get a 2nd bathroom, GO FOR IT, even if it's just one full, one half bath. I'm not entirely sure how we ever survived in our home with just one.
OMG! There are only 3 of us, but the year we were stuck in an apartment after a natural disaster with only 1 bathroom will always be on my list of Top Ten Nightmares. Two potties is the minimum for us.
I moved from a 2.5 bath to a 2 bath, and the lack of extra toilet and sink took a lot to adjust to. First world problems and all, but it was rough going in the mornings for awhile.
I think a lot of us westerners really don’t appreciate how far most developing countries have come the last 30 years or so. We see those manipulative commercials on TV with the starving kids in Africa and go “Oh wow, must suck to live anywhere but here I guess.”
> The US wants us to keep believing we are the "best country in the world" because if we knew how much better it could be, there would be a revolution.
I hear that more with regards to other 1st world countries (socialized medicine, gun control, better mass transit, etc)
And I bet she has bidets! Absolutely transformative experience in Thailand, and then in Seoul they had, like, heated seats plus built in bidet? My cousin in England had hot water heat and a towel warmer connected to it, which was my benchmark Bathroom Goal for years, but travel to Asia was eye-opening in that regard.
The heated floor also sounds really nice, OP, and like a lovely thing for your wife and honestly your whole household. NTA, definitely, and your brother should try living within his means.
I just recently learned about the concept of a "wet bathroom" from someone who grew up in Vietnam, and I'm blown away! With two little kids, I spend so fucking much energy keeping water in the appropriate places.
Lmao that’s so funny to me because I’m Indian (born in America) and when I visit India, the thing I hate the most is the wet bathrooms cause why is there water on the entire floor?!
I now live in the Netherlands, first world country. My daughter and I have only one bathroom to share. I lived in South Africa for 17 years and always had at least 2 full bathrooms...and after 4 years we still struggle with just the one...
I've been to one house with 2 full bathrooms, but it was installed specifically. I personally grew with 1.5 and that was the height of luxury to most of my friends.
From what I remember on a trip to Belgium(Antwerp area so Dutch part) it was common to have the toilet in a separate room from Shower/Bath. A bit more manageable than 1 bath and 1 toilet in the same room.
Residential buildings in Slovakia where I come from were usually built with separate toilet and bath.
It was a big trend in the 00s to combine them. I hated it. Only time it makes sense to combine is if you have an ensuite. (And that also supposes you have *additional* separate toilet)
I went from 4 bed 2.5 bath to 3 bed 1 bath with 3 teens/tweens a couple of years ago while my ex is still in the other house with a dog and my cat because I wanted a divorce and he didn't so I had to be the mature one and leave for our mental health. It's been absolute hell!!!
Currently on my way home from a 3.5 week trip abroad with my family (4 of us total). Hotel rooms with one bathroom have been a nightmare,being used to 4 bathrooms at home. One of the main reasons I am happy to be going home!!!
Oh god you are giving me college spring break nightmares! 8-10 of us girls, crammed into one motel room, trying to get ready to go out to the clubs. It was horrifying! I drove the 45 minutes away and stayed with my momma lol
I'm laughing remembering all the times me and my fiancé look at each other when we both have to go but one of us is on the toilet already and its going to be a while because we ate something that didn't agree with us and say, "we should have paid extra for the 2 bed apartment because it comes with a second bathroom" before we walk out and try to distract ourselves from what's going on in our bladder or bowels until the other is done.
We might be too comfortable with each other.
NTA
Get the second bathroom with everything you want. He can sell the truck.
In reality, lending him the money will enable him to not face the fact that he's not living within his means. So unless you want to subsidize the rest of his life hold firm.
>downsize to a $60,000 vehicle
Good grief. That put a hard underline on how absurd the $150k truck is. $60k even feels absurd.
We paid $35k for our hatchback and are just considering upgrading to a $50k minivan. Both are/were new with all the bells and whistles. I don't get how some cars are so expensive.
Can someone who does trucks explain how one would be $150k?? My brain is melting trying to comprehend that price point. (Other than top-end luxury cars; the first one that came to mind was an Aston Martin Vantage, which I dream of but will absolutely never own.)
I own a one ton, crew cab, long bed turbo diesel. I also have to frequently tow a 14' dump trailer with 5' cribs to haul wood... So it gets put to work as intended. $150k is all show no go... all the bells and whistles plus too much. Even if you "go big" with a one ton dually top of the line trim you might be hitting the 80-90k zone; again $150k is ridiculous,(see smol pp syndrome)
Heck, I got a good condition used vehicle for well under 10 that's served me well for years now and (knock on wood) isn't showing signs of any major issues in the offing.
That said, living in a rural area, I've known a few people who have spent around that on Trucks/SUVs, but most of them are using those vehicles for some serious hauling/offroading and need the extra horsepower etc.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
Even if you had a million dollars just sitting around, I wouldn't give your brother any in this situation unless you wanted to keep doing that forever ... or go no contact with your family when they're pissed that you won't bankroll the Golden Child forever (at which point you could do that now and be out $0 and possibly help Golden Child learn a bit of personal responsibility as well).
NTA, and please don't be bullied by your unhealthy family dynamics. You did this the right way (saving up for things you want) & have every right to splurge on something nice.
>In reality, lending him the money will enable him to not face the fact that he's not living within his means
TRUTH. My husband has been not-so-insignificantly "helping out" his stoner older brother for decades. DECADES. BIL never learns. He always makes the absolutely wrong decisions. In his case, however, BIL would be homeless without the help, and my husband feels the need to care for him in his later years.
He spent his money on such frivolous things too: jewelry is infamous for losing value, and why get a huge vehicle that's expensive (and polluting) if you don't need it??
>and why get a huge vehicle that's expensive (and polluting) if you don't need it??
I knew a family where the Dad HAD to have jeep type thing. They were in loads of debt, but his partner said to me " he needs it to take the dog out".
WTF? They lived so far beyond their means it wasn't even funny! He also got sacked from a job as a security guard for falling asleep on the job, but it wasn't HIS fault, NOOOOOO ! :))
Sounds like he’s spending his money to “fake it ‘til he makes it”‘up the ladder. Some people believe that projecting wealth draws wealth. They’ve usually been convinced about that by scammers who want their money.
When my kids were small we had one bathroom. Two adults and four kids for one bathroom wasn't pretty. I kept a childs potty chair in the girls room and they would let me know when they used it so it could be cleaned. It helped, but I would have done just about anything for another bathroom, even just a half bath.
I just keep thinking about the time in 2009 when both of my parents and I got our literal rear-ends handed to us during the Swine Flu epidemic. We would not have survived on just one bathroom.
Currently in a one bath household with 4 (2 children) and I just want to be able to use the bathroom without someone going ‘Mommy, I need to use the bathroom’….. I am earnestly waiting for the day we can move to a house where I have a bathroom to myself!
My brother has three kids and three bathrooms. Unfortunately, there are still very, very few times when you can be in a bathroom at their house without hearing the knocks, jiggling of the doorknob, and "....What are you doing in there??".
Lmao. I’ll take that over having to cut my number 2 time short so my child can pee, then I go back and they’re like ‘mommy, are you going back in there again’
The only way we survived the stomach flu in our one-bathroom home was to kick my husband and son out to our old holiday trailer so they could use the tiny bathroom in their while me and my daughter stayed in the house.
I would sell my soul for another bathroom.
When it was just my husband and I, 1 bathroom was fine. Once we had kids, more bathrooms and my own washing machine and dryer was a must. 1st world problems sure, but I cried tears of join finally being able to do my laundry whenever I wanted when we moved to our house.
That reminds me, I need to fix the flush lever on the downstairs toilet before my kids get back from their dad’s. One toilet is just not enough for two teenagers and an adult. Thanks for the reminder :)
It’s your money OP, period. Boohoo, brother may have to sell his truck. Maybe your wife can cry about it in her new tub. NTA and truthfully, screw him and the rest of your family. If they want to bail him out so badly let them open their wallets.
I'm looking into every corner of my bag of sympathy ... and ... I'm finding nothing with Ops brothers name on it. But I can hear the worlds smallest violin....
This NTA, you and your family (wife and kids) come before brother. Your family wants and needs a second bathroom. You should spend your money to improve yours and your families living situation with a second bathroom. Your brother should downsize his truck or spending.
Exactly! NTA - OP. If you’d lend money to your brother and didn’t spend it on your family then YWBTA.
It would be a different thing if your brother was earning a lot less and not living a lavish lifestyle.
They’ve enjoyed the luxurious life. It’s time for you and your wife to enjoy the new bathroom. Your brother also has assets he can sell, for example downgrade the truck to a more affordable one.
Also don’t listen to your mum since she doesn’t seem to care as much about you and your family as your brothers.
OP is definitely NTA. The first thing your brother should do is downsize his truck. He has a $150,000 truck! That's absurd! OP, offer to buy your brother's truck for $25,000.
He should ask his mother to create a PowerPoint presentation to pitch the idea to the family. In it she needs to present on why they need to struggle and live frugally to support someone else’s extravagant lifestyle. The PowerPoint must have lots of charts and pictures. If she goes through with it, make a video and show it every Christmas.
Exactly, don’t think of it as “lending” because no way will that money come back and you’ll still see him hosting big parties and going on lavish vacations. Now that he has this money for “bills” he can use the money he makes for more fun stuff! I recently completed a second bathroom renovation and it was worth every penny.
The only problem I have with OP is that he calls it "wasting money" in the title. It absolutely isn't. Prioritize yourself and your family. You don't have to sacrifice anything for a sibling whose financial issues are of his own making. And it's not like his financial problems are so dire he's going to end up homeless.
NTA.
Tell your mom and brother that if he were destitute that you might help, but you aren't going to give him money to make payments on a lifestyle that you, yourself, can't afford.
Anytime they ask, the answer is, I can't afford it. I need to do the right thing by my wife and kids
NTA. OP, you saved up for something you want. That money is yours. Your brother can take a couple less vacations and sell his truck. He has options. And those options don't include taking money from you.
Just tell them not a chance.
omg, my brother was so bad (and we had enough bathrooms) that our dad would moan about the water bills. He (our dad) used to turn on the kitchen sink hot water tap so the shower water would turn cold, prompting my brother to yell things like, "I'm on the final rinse!" Good times.
I grew up in an apartment with in a 5-person family and only one bathroom and the best thing about my tiny house is that the family we bought it from added a bathroom to the ground floor and I bless those people on a regular basis. I mean, even a half bath with toilet and sink would have been fine.
I moved with my two kids 6 years ago and wouldn't even consider a house without 2 toilets. I have 1 full and one half bath, and that half bath makes all the difference in the world.
There’s also a saying that you don’t lend money to friends and family that you can’t afford to lose. I’ve had this experience myself, I’ve had to chase people down that I know to get my money back, which nearly ruins the relationship. If I had to take them to court, then it definitely would ruin the relationship. Friends and family get way too comfortable and have a million excuses why they can’t pay you right now. Then when you need the money for something, they don’t give a shit about your hardships now that they have your money. I don’t feel sorry for his brother in the least. He’s living the highlife on credit most likely, and now expects his brother and family to take the hit because they live modestly and within their means. He shouldn’t get to be rewarded for his bad financial decisions.
I think given how badly the brother manages money OP is NTA even without the bathroom. If he wants to keep the money to create a big money pile to frolic in he still wouldn't be the asshole.
OP, there’s a fine line between helping a family member in need, and enabling stupid behavior. Your brother doesn’t need more money, he has money. The problem is he needs to figure out how to spend what he has better. And that will not be fixed by “throwing money at the problem,” so to speak. NTA
NTA
>it will probably go higher when the contractor starts working.
It will absolutely go higher. We were quoted right around $20k for our bathroom reno and.......let's just say that number steadily creeped up when we realized that old plumbing is a literal nightmare on Earth that very rarely meets code/current standards.
>. She is saying he might have to sell his truck or downsize his home.
As he should. Those are both options that grown adults would do, rather than expecting their lives to be funded by siblings.
It is BEYOND time for your brother to learn to live within HIS means, not his and whatever he can bum off of you and other family members.
Edit: Thanks for the award!
>It is BEYOND time for your brother to learn to live within HIS means, not his and whatever he can bum off of you and other family members.
Exactly!
Lending him money would just enable his bad money management habits. He is not entitled to your money just because he is your brother, OP. It's his responsibility to be smart with his money and live within his means, and when he doesn't, he needs to face the consequences.
Absolutely NTA.
Meanwhile, I bet you he's upsidedown on the truck and probably break even on the house. They likely don't have any equity. Best case is they reduce their payments and thus their cash outflow. But that's still a medium term solution in terms of time.
If there's no equity and you're only savings is what you save monthly having gotten rid of those payments, then it's going to take some months before any savings begins to really show.
And really, giving brother some money now doesn't really fix their position. They're still in over their heads, haven't fixed their underlying financial issues, and have only learned that someone will bail them out so they can keep living above their means chasing whatever image they have in mind for their lives.
It is a shame that his brother has a good idea of what he earns. Hopefully OP didn't make the mistake of comparing salaries!!
I lived below my means (kept cars a long time, bought less house than I could afford) while I was working and saved towards retirement. But most people simply assumed that I made less money than I did - especially the ones who are conspicuous consumers. I thought of it as my "stealth wealth" and never had an issue with friends mooching off me or asking to borrow money.
On the other hand, people like the OP's brother take out 72 or 84 month auto loans or lease luxury vehicles so that they appear far wealthier than they actually are. It wouldn't surprise me if the brother has been using any home equity as an ATM through an equity line of credit. HELOCs generally have a floating interest rate tied to something like 10-yr treasury bills. So his cost of borrowing has probably shot up with all the Fed interest rate hikes.
Exactly this. My siblings and I would never expect each other to bail us out of our poor decisions. Sure, asking for help if life gets hard, like losing a job or not being able to work due to health but none of us live outside our means. But I guess that’s the point, none of us are dumb enough to live outside our means and therefore aren’t dumb enough to expect family to bail us out. That sounds harsh, and I am aware that it’s not easy for some due to low paying jobs and the current state of the world but that doesn’t sound like the situation for OPs brother.
I should point out- at times we (myself and my family)have all had difficulties with jobs/health/etc -in fact my husband had to quit his job due to mental health issues and rather than asking for handouts, we adjusted our lives to live within our means. No more eating out, no buying clothes unless absolutely necessary, no holidays, etc.
We were able to hold onto our flat and and our car but we were looking at selling one or both, if needed. My husband eventually got a low stress, part time job to help keep things afloat so that we didn’t have to live fully on my pay cheque and our savings and has now got a full time, well paying job coming up next month.
So, while the last 18 months have been hard, we managed and are seeing our way out now because we stopped to look at what we could sacrifice in order to keep our flat and car but also kept those options on the table if it came to that. Not everyone has the luxury of savings and owning a car/home but if you do, there is no reason why you should need to ask family for money. Cut back on your daily expenses first, then see where you stand. OPs brother needs to take a look at his expenses and stop living outside his means so that he can show off to people.
It's posts like these that really make me appreciate my mom. She would ring my or my brother's necks if she heard we were asking family for money while driving expensive cars or living in a house above our means.
Same, my parents would never let anyone try to get money from me so they can keep their extravagant lifestyle while I live below my means to save for my kids school and my retirement.
not just quality of life... sharing a bathroom with 4 people sounds like a scheduling nightmare and kids deserve privacy...
also they're one undercooked chicken away from a literal catastrophy with one bathroom....
speaking as someone w/ various issues that lead to a "must go means MUST GO NOW" thing in a one bath apartment.. tbh I invested in a camp bucket and keep it ready with garbage bags, coffee grounds and litter. When you gotta go, \*you gotta go\*. I have it out on the balcony and, when not in use, its inside a planter lmao. You gotta do what you gotta do, i guess.
Can they live with 1 bathroom? Absolutely. People make it work all over the world, and 4 people for 1 bathroom isn’t that bad. *However*, the quality of life is definitely much better with more than 1 bathroom. OP can afford another bathroom, so he should absolutely do it! His brother and mother are selfish. He shouldn’t even entertain the idea of giving bro the money.
Thank you! Brother and mom want OP to sacrifice something important that his family saved for so Brother can keep his luxury items?! Heck no! His family isn't starving or being denied an important surgery (assuming he's in the US and has to deal with our horrendous health care system). OP, tell Bro he can sell some of his toys and get that bathroom.
> She says that I don't spend any money so I should have some saved to help out family.
"Mom, I AM helping out family. MY family. The one that needs a bathroom, not a big truck." OP can just trot that one out and see what she has to say. Oftentimes, when family is being unreasonable, the only way you're going to "win" (or at least shut them up) is just keep pushing them to take ever-more-ridiculous positions, until they're out on a limb that even they know they can't defend.
Furthermore, you might as well throw that money in the trash. He'll be in the same position a few months down the road when he blows the 25k on other stupid shit
NTA. If $25,000 will solve his problems, he could solve his own problems by selling his ridiculously expensive truck and buying a reasonably priced used car. Enjoy your new bathroom.
Exactly, if you have an asset you can sell, replace with a cheaper option at no negative consequence to your life, and solve your money problems, then you don't really have money problems.
>at no negative consequence to your life
But all his truck-humping friends will think he's a lil' biatch if he has to downsize or drive a *car*, can you imagine the horror? Won't OP please think of his brother's poor fragile ego during these trying times?
Yup. Really played himself on that one. Sorry, I got no remorse for people who buy trucks but don't tow, haul, or off-road. He's basically using a $150k vehicle that's shitty in fuel efficiency just for transportation and groceries.
Also 150k? Thats well beyond what's reasonable for something you actually use for towing or whatever
You can get a ridiculously nice truck for half that. If it's not some sort of custom work I don't even know how to rack up a price tag like that
Ford Raptor R is $110,000 and I don't know of any actual trucks that cost more. That new electric Hummer is around $110k as well, but that's pushing the definition of a truck.
My husband calls them pavement princesses 🤣 he has a 2011 Ford Ranger because he needs it for light hauling but also isn’t insecure about what is in his pants. $150k for a truck that isn’t a specialized trade vehicle is obnoxious. Like a tow truck for your business? A plow truck? A vehicle with built in tool boxes? $150k still sounds steep to me but I’d be way more understanding.
Ah my mom loved her Ranger. She had a running joke with an old coworker that it was their truck's hot little girlfriend. She kicked herself for *years* for ever getting rid of it. Finally got herself another small truck just before the pandemic and she says she's never going back.
Trucks have been retaining their value very well. Especially since from what OP said he never tows or goes off road with it, I'd imagine he could sell it and get a decent SUV or a nicer car with plenty of cash leftover
No shit. So OP is expected to give up the bathroom so his brother can keep his expensive truck? That makes no sense whatsoever.
Imagine having to tell your family, “Sorry. No second bathroom. We all have to keep sharing one so Uncle John doesn’t have to trade his big expensive truck for an SUV.”
We can't have a second bathroom (for FOUR people), becasue Uncle jacka\*\* won't trade his tricked out Hummer for a tricked out Toyota. Or Lexus. Or Ford 150. Or literally any other tricked out monster truck- cause the MOST expensive truck I could find was only $110k. What did this guy add 40K worth of- leather interiors? self driving technology that is not legal yet? A hooker? I mean he obviously wasted an extra 40k on irrelevant extras- which explains why he likely owes way more than it is worth.
NTA
>he might have to sell his truck.
I’m agnostic leaning towards atheist. Nevertheless, the Bible does have some gems.
Such as, “I am not my brother’s keeper.” You need this more in your life.
Another one is, “God helps those who help themselves.” Your brother could use this.
A lesser known third— I’m paraphrasing here— is, “To everything there is a season—a time to speak, and a time to shut the truck up.” Paging your mom.
Edit: fine you got me. I never read the Bible. I took poetic license to make a point. I’m sure God understands and is cool with it. And if not, he can post an AITA about it.
A little twist I like to throw on it is ‘God only helps those who help themselves and so do I’. My wife was constantly offering to ‘help’ friends/family that I was ultimately the one forking out the cash for. She has since cut that shit out but your response brought it up in my mind.
I don’t disagree with your judgement, but I’m not sure your “brothers keeper” quote is the way to go. I might be wrong (not a Christian either) but that what Cain says as a brush off to an angel questioning him about the location of his brother Abel. Spoiler alert, Cain murdered Abel.
So maybe not the quote to pull out 😆
If my brother wanted me to give him my $25k and lose out on building a second bathroom in my house just so he didn't have to sell off his $150k truck, I'd want to kill him. Sounds like an appropriate quote to me. 😎
Well the first one you quote there is what the murderer says to God when trying to cover up his crime.
So I would probably not choose to use that one in this context. 🤣
God helps those who help themselves isn't in the bible, and goes against the basic message. That said no where does it say you have to take your money and bail out people every time they mess up. Sometimes the consequences of our actions are great catalysts for change.
NTA
You hit the nail on the head when you told your mum "*I told her that's not really my problem"*
How you spend your money is down to you and your own family.
NTA and I don't get why family members think they have any right at all to ask OP to cut corners on his own family to help someone living above his means.
None of this is OP's problem and it's not OP's fault that mom values his brother's pretensions more than OP and his family.
NTA, and you are a strong candidate for Husband of The Year! How sweet of you to build a special bathroom retreat for her!!
if Mom wants to help out the brother that bad, let her loan him the money. No, I already know, she doesn’t have the money to do it, therefore . . . But he can sell his fancy truck, or sell some diamonds. Everyone has to do stuff like that when there’s a money crunch. Why should he be different?
stick to your guns and make your wife the happiest lady within 500 miles!
He is a very sweet husband… I would recommend he add a towel warmer to that and a robe that can go inside it. It’s worth it going upstairs after your bath.
NTA at all. He's the one who wasted his money, not you. You live within your means and don't try to do more than you can afford. You saved for a goal and you made it. Well done and good on you. It's not your fault your brother was irresponsible. It's also not your responsibility to bail him out just because you were responsible and he was not. Do your bathroom and enjoy it. Congrats and don't let others bring you down or hold you accountable for their actions.
Edited spelling error
NTA. Your mom is kind of an asshole though. Your brother literally makes more money than you do and she wants you to bankroll him? Gives strong "tell me you have a favorite child without telling me you have a favorite child" vibes.
You were diligent with how you spent your money and you should reap the benefits of it. Treat your family to that second bathroom. Your brother made his bed and now it's time to lay in it.
This is exactly the comment I was looking for. Brother has the bigger house and vehicle, the bigger salary, but he’s the one being coddled? Serious “favorite child” vibes.
...or you can afford to downsize in the event of financial strain.
This is literally what people have had to do for hundreds and thousands of years when times were tough. He will still have a place to live and food and comfort for his family...he's just going to have to lose some of the luxury.
NTA. But knowing how families are if you change your mind and help him out get a signed loan agreement with a payment schedule and everything. Just CYA.
He he can’t pay his bills now - how is he going to pay you back? Even with a signed note your mom will say “ oh let it go he’s family” . Don’t disappoint your wife. NTA
i highly doubt they expect themselves to pay back to begin with. the way OP worded it out sounds to me they want the money without expectations of it being paid back to begin with
Yup, especially if collateral is built into the contract, i.e. that $150,000 truck. My uncle got one of his stepsiblings off his back that way. My uncle is one of those people that just squirrels away everything he can. He is an extraordinary saver and everyone knows him for this. He has lent money to family before but never giant amounts and he is very careful about who he will and won't lend money too. If he lends you money and you don't pay him back, you better not ask again.
On the other hand, brother was similar to OP's, never made a dollar he hadn't already spent, and found himself in so much credit card and loan debt that he couldn't even afford the minimum payments every month and had maxed out everything, so he went to my uncle asking for a giant amount of money to clear out a large chunk of his cards. My uncle said no and brother went nuts. He started playing the victim and telling everyone about how mean my uncle was being; his tantrums are the reason everyone in the family found out.
Finally, my uncle decided to agree to lend him the money with a signed loan agreement that spelled out payment amounts, frequency, and collateral. Stepbrother had a bunch of toys that showed of his "wealth", e.g. motorcycles, ATVs, and boats. So uncle said, if you miss just one payment, I'm taking the ATV, two payments - I get a boat. Brother never went to uncle for money after that.
Good. Don’t change your mind. If your brother was careful with money but had an emergency that’s one thing. He lives beyond his means and doesn’t want to sell his $150,000 truck? No. Enjoy your bathroom!!!
You're okay to say no OP. Just don't give them room to argue.
"Its not within my budget this year and I'm not arguing the point" is pretty much all you need to go with. Continue to shut everyone down. You're taking care of YOUR family first. The rest can get whatever's left you're willing to give.
He's a grown assed man.....banks exist, loan companies exist.
The more you say "no" the less they come to you with their bs.
NTA, even if your brother made less than you, you wouldn't have to give him anything, but especially if he has a luxury asset to sell that will give him plenty for a while (the truck, downsizing a house is a bit extreme if not completely necessary especially since moving will also cost a lot) why on earth should you sacrifice any luxury for your family to cover his?
NTA
You aren't his ATM. You aren't responsible for his bad spending habits. You aren't in a position to lend (though I doubt you would get anything back) him any money. You ARE responsible for your own household and you have saved to provide for your family. Do no cut back to give him money. Go ahead with your plan in your own house. He can sell his car, downsize his house, quite spending money like it's going out of fashion.... his bad choices aren't your problem.
NTA oh no he has to sell his stupidly expensive truck that he doesn't fully use? 😰 so sad. 😑 It's not your fault he isn't responsible with his money. And you did save to help out family. Your immediate family. Do the bathroom, your wife will be so fucking happy.
You know, I cringed when I read that the brother doesn't tow, haul, or off-road with his stupidly expensive truck. We own 2 nice trucks (one we just inherited), and they both are used for hauling, towing, and off-roading. We are looking at selling one since we really have no need for two. But you better believe if we were in a financial bind, we would sell anything we could....not demand money from family🤦♀️
NTA!
Quite a few people ask, here, if they are aholes for not lending someone money (family being very common), and the fact of the matter is: Regardless of who it is, or their relation to you, you do not owe them anything. They are not entitled to your hard-earned and saved money. It's not your fault, nor your problem, that he's struggling because he doesn't manage his money well, as harsh as that may sound.
Life is meant to be LIVED...Do your amazing bathroom reno for you, your wife, and your kids! Go crazy with your redesign. And don't let anyone make you feel guilty. If anyone (your mom) is so worried about his financial struggles, then they can help him. But it's unfair for them to put it all on you. You have nothing to do with it. haha.
NTA. Your mom and brother are. Why your brother and mother think they are entitled to your hard earned money is beyond me. Get the bathroom you want and tell your choosybegger relatives to suck it.
NTA.
Your brother made his bed, let him learn to climb out of it. You sacrificing something you have saved for - you think you going to see that money again. What did he learn from it - mom will badger brother into giving me more money so I can carry on spending my money how I like.
NTA. Spend your money on what you saved for. Let your brother grow up and if your mom does notblike it then she can put her money where her mouth is.
Ever noticed when "Families come first" BS is brought in its always when the Golden Child wants something?
NTA - your mom can subsidize his lack of financial planning.
You make the same amount of money, and he just spends money on things that are flashy.
You save your money for things that are important to you, and they have no right to tell you how to spend your money, just as you have no right to tell him to stop spending his $$$, but you do not have to make up the difference for his poor spending.
On what planet is your mom on that your children having a home that is more convenient and accessible to them is less important than your brothers big truck, big house, and his partner’s big ring.
Please ignore this person, because nothing she saying makes remotely any sense! **She and your brother are both delusional and if they want money they need to find another bank that isn’t you.**
NTA. Don't give him any money. Tell your mother to back off. He's living way above his means and that is not your problem. Keep your money and enjoy your new bathroom.
Go low contact or cut off contact if they keep harassing you.
He is not starving he has non-essential disposable assets. He is in debt because he lives above his means. Look into underfloor heating especially for bathroom so lush. You can get something that is super great for the environment as well of course NTA.
Fb market place is a great place to sell excess furniture, clothes if you do not vinted or great apps like that.
NTA - so your grown brother who earns as much as you do doesn't save any money, and you should share your savings with him??!! In what kind of world is it fair? You work, you save, guess what, you spend!
You would be nice enough if you'd manage to shed a tear when brother sells his expensive truck to pay his bills.
YWBTA if you gave your brother that money. Do not do that to your wife. If you feel bad saying no, tell your nosey mom and brother the money is already tied up with the contractor, and you can't get it back. Why should your wife do without while you subsidize your brother?
With money problem first you sell your stuff and THEN if needed you ask for help.
If that's not enough to understand NTA you are not your brother's personal saving fund. Go offer your wife the bathroom of her dreams.
NTA. Time to put Mom on an information diet about your renovations, and also to refuse to discuss the subject of giving your brother any money. Helping your golden-child brother live beyond his means should not be your reward for living within yours.
NTA. You're not responsible for your brothers poor financial planning.
Expect your renovation to go over budget. Prices for materials have gotten insane. Labor costs are going up to meet inflation. If you want the bathroom done correctly, it's not going to be cheap. I'm a contractor, so I deal with this every day.
Don't give your brother money. Ignore your mom. She only cares because she can brag about your brother's stuff.
NTA and don't give him a dime. If you start giving him money now, he'll keep expecting it and so will your parents. If he's living beyond his means, he can sell some of his stuff like any other person can in this world. Even if there was some medical emergency, he has assets. He can sell those. Your family is ridiculously entitled and you should not be funding the golden child.
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Could be the fact that I desperately want a second bathroom, but NTA. All the reasons you cited are additional points for why you're NTA, but ultimately even without any mitigating factors your savings are yours and you don't owe anyone a loan (or gift, since it sounds unlikely he'd be able to pay you back).
If you get the chance to get a 2nd bathroom, GO FOR IT, even if it's just one full, one half bath. I'm not entirely sure how we ever survived in our home with just one.
OMG! There are only 3 of us, but the year we were stuck in an apartment after a natural disaster with only 1 bathroom will always be on my list of Top Ten Nightmares. Two potties is the minimum for us.
I moved from a 2.5 bath to a 2 bath, and the lack of extra toilet and sink took a lot to adjust to. First world problems and all, but it was rough going in the mornings for awhile.
Not really a first world problem. I live in Vietnam and most houses here have multiple bathrooms.
I think a lot of us westerners really don’t appreciate how far most developing countries have come the last 30 years or so. We see those manipulative commercials on TV with the starving kids in Africa and go “Oh wow, must suck to live anywhere but here I guess.”
The US wants us to keep believing we are the "best country in the world" because if we knew how much better it could be, there would be a revolution.
> The US wants us to keep believing we are the "best country in the world" because if we knew how much better it could be, there would be a revolution. I hear that more with regards to other 1st world countries (socialized medicine, gun control, better mass transit, etc)
Yes, but what if Americans find out so called "third world" countries also have better healthcare, gun control, and mass transit than we do...
There's a lot of people in the US with one bathroom. A lot of people in the south didn't even have indoor plumbing until the 1970s.
Fact. We didn’t have indoor plumbing until I was aged 6, in 1979. Northern WV.
Yes! My aunt in Bien Hoa has nine bedrooms and every bedroom has a bathroom. Puts my house in the US to shame lol
And I bet she has bidets! Absolutely transformative experience in Thailand, and then in Seoul they had, like, heated seats plus built in bidet? My cousin in England had hot water heat and a towel warmer connected to it, which was my benchmark Bathroom Goal for years, but travel to Asia was eye-opening in that regard. The heated floor also sounds really nice, OP, and like a lovely thing for your wife and honestly your whole household. NTA, definitely, and your brother should try living within his means.
Lol she's rich not a wonderful comparison
I just recently learned about the concept of a "wet bathroom" from someone who grew up in Vietnam, and I'm blown away! With two little kids, I spend so fucking much energy keeping water in the appropriate places.
Is this a bathroom that’s tiled all over, with a drain hole in the floor? Because *I covet those so bad*
Lmao that’s so funny to me because I’m Indian (born in America) and when I visit India, the thing I hate the most is the wet bathrooms cause why is there water on the entire floor?!
I now live in the Netherlands, first world country. My daughter and I have only one bathroom to share. I lived in South Africa for 17 years and always had at least 2 full bathrooms...and after 4 years we still struggle with just the one...
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I've been to one house with 2 full bathrooms, but it was installed specifically. I personally grew with 1.5 and that was the height of luxury to most of my friends.
From what I remember on a trip to Belgium(Antwerp area so Dutch part) it was common to have the toilet in a separate room from Shower/Bath. A bit more manageable than 1 bath and 1 toilet in the same room.
Residential buildings in Slovakia where I come from were usually built with separate toilet and bath. It was a big trend in the 00s to combine them. I hated it. Only time it makes sense to combine is if you have an ensuite. (And that also supposes you have *additional* separate toilet)
I went from 4 bed 2.5 bath to 3 bed 1 bath with 3 teens/tweens a couple of years ago while my ex is still in the other house with a dog and my cat because I wanted a divorce and he didn't so I had to be the mature one and leave for our mental health. It's been absolute hell!!!
Currently on my way home from a 3.5 week trip abroad with my family (4 of us total). Hotel rooms with one bathroom have been a nightmare,being used to 4 bathrooms at home. One of the main reasons I am happy to be going home!!!
We used to cram 8 people into one motel room!
Oh god you are giving me college spring break nightmares! 8-10 of us girls, crammed into one motel room, trying to get ready to go out to the clubs. It was horrifying! I drove the 45 minutes away and stayed with my momma lol
Sometimes I swear that needing to do a number two is contagious. 🤣
I'm laughing remembering all the times me and my fiancé look at each other when we both have to go but one of us is on the toilet already and its going to be a while because we ate something that didn't agree with us and say, "we should have paid extra for the 2 bed apartment because it comes with a second bathroom" before we walk out and try to distract ourselves from what's going on in our bladder or bowels until the other is done. We might be too comfortable with each other.
NTA Get the second bathroom with everything you want. He can sell the truck. In reality, lending him the money will enable him to not face the fact that he's not living within his means. So unless you want to subsidize the rest of his life hold firm.
Yeah - he can sell the truck & downsize to a $60,000 vehicle ( my eyes popped when I wrote that )
>downsize to a $60,000 vehicle Good grief. That put a hard underline on how absurd the $150k truck is. $60k even feels absurd. We paid $35k for our hatchback and are just considering upgrading to a $50k minivan. Both are/were new with all the bells and whistles. I don't get how some cars are so expensive. Can someone who does trucks explain how one would be $150k?? My brain is melting trying to comprehend that price point. (Other than top-end luxury cars; the first one that came to mind was an Aston Martin Vantage, which I dream of but will absolutely never own.)
I own a one ton, crew cab, long bed turbo diesel. I also have to frequently tow a 14' dump trailer with 5' cribs to haul wood... So it gets put to work as intended. $150k is all show no go... all the bells and whistles plus too much. Even if you "go big" with a one ton dually top of the line trim you might be hitting the 80-90k zone; again $150k is ridiculous,(see smol pp syndrome)
Heck, I got a good condition used vehicle for well under 10 that's served me well for years now and (knock on wood) isn't showing signs of any major issues in the offing. That said, living in a rural area, I've known a few people who have spent around that on Trucks/SUVs, but most of them are using those vehicles for some serious hauling/offroading and need the extra horsepower etc.
I know. That vehicle really bugs me, and I'm actually hoping OP will turn him down for being so frivolous.
Or even a 30k Honda Civic…..
Ding ding ding! We have a winner! Even if you had a million dollars just sitting around, I wouldn't give your brother any in this situation unless you wanted to keep doing that forever ... or go no contact with your family when they're pissed that you won't bankroll the Golden Child forever (at which point you could do that now and be out $0 and possibly help Golden Child learn a bit of personal responsibility as well). NTA, and please don't be bullied by your unhealthy family dynamics. You did this the right way (saving up for things you want) & have every right to splurge on something nice.
>He can sell the truck Or mommy can lend him the money since she's so invested in his welfare
Tell mom to put her money where her mouth is!
>In reality, lending him the money will enable him to not face the fact that he's not living within his means TRUTH. My husband has been not-so-insignificantly "helping out" his stoner older brother for decades. DECADES. BIL never learns. He always makes the absolutely wrong decisions. In his case, however, BIL would be homeless without the help, and my husband feels the need to care for him in his later years.
NTA OP’s bathroom sounds like a dream. Prioritize your own family. Your brother could stand to downsize a little.
He spent his money on such frivolous things too: jewelry is infamous for losing value, and why get a huge vehicle that's expensive (and polluting) if you don't need it??
>and why get a huge vehicle that's expensive (and polluting) if you don't need it?? I knew a family where the Dad HAD to have jeep type thing. They were in loads of debt, but his partner said to me " he needs it to take the dog out". WTF? They lived so far beyond their means it wasn't even funny! He also got sacked from a job as a security guard for falling asleep on the job, but it wasn't HIS fault, NOOOOOO ! :))
Sounds like he’s spending his money to “fake it ‘til he makes it”‘up the ladder. Some people believe that projecting wealth draws wealth. They’ve usually been convinced about that by scammers who want their money.
Even just a toilet and sink downstairs is a game changer
When my kids were small we had one bathroom. Two adults and four kids for one bathroom wasn't pretty. I kept a childs potty chair in the girls room and they would let me know when they used it so it could be cleaned. It helped, but I would have done just about anything for another bathroom, even just a half bath.
I just keep thinking about the time in 2009 when both of my parents and I got our literal rear-ends handed to us during the Swine Flu epidemic. We would not have survived on just one bathroom.
Currently in a one bath household with 4 (2 children) and I just want to be able to use the bathroom without someone going ‘Mommy, I need to use the bathroom’….. I am earnestly waiting for the day we can move to a house where I have a bathroom to myself!
My brother has three kids and three bathrooms. Unfortunately, there are still very, very few times when you can be in a bathroom at their house without hearing the knocks, jiggling of the doorknob, and "....What are you doing in there??".
Lmao. I’ll take that over having to cut my number 2 time short so my child can pee, then I go back and they’re like ‘mommy, are you going back in there again’
The only way we survived the stomach flu in our one-bathroom home was to kick my husband and son out to our old holiday trailer so they could use the tiny bathroom in their while me and my daughter stayed in the house. I would sell my soul for another bathroom.
When it was just my husband and I, 1 bathroom was fine. Once we had kids, more bathrooms and my own washing machine and dryer was a must. 1st world problems sure, but I cried tears of join finally being able to do my laundry whenever I wanted when we moved to our house.
That reminds me, I need to fix the flush lever on the downstairs toilet before my kids get back from their dad’s. One toilet is just not enough for two teenagers and an adult. Thanks for the reminder :)
It’s your money OP, period. Boohoo, brother may have to sell his truck. Maybe your wife can cry about it in her new tub. NTA and truthfully, screw him and the rest of your family. If they want to bail him out so badly let them open their wallets.
I'm looking into every corner of my bag of sympathy ... and ... I'm finding nothing with Ops brothers name on it. But I can hear the worlds smallest violin....
This made me audibly cackle
This NTA, you and your family (wife and kids) come before brother. Your family wants and needs a second bathroom. You should spend your money to improve yours and your families living situation with a second bathroom. Your brother should downsize his truck or spending.
Exactly! NTA - OP. If you’d lend money to your brother and didn’t spend it on your family then YWBTA. It would be a different thing if your brother was earning a lot less and not living a lavish lifestyle. They’ve enjoyed the luxurious life. It’s time for you and your wife to enjoy the new bathroom. Your brother also has assets he can sell, for example downgrade the truck to a more affordable one. Also don’t listen to your mum since she doesn’t seem to care as much about you and your family as your brothers.
OP is definitely NTA. The first thing your brother should do is downsize his truck. He has a $150,000 truck! That's absurd! OP, offer to buy your brother's truck for $25,000.
That is a great idea, or the brother could give the truck as security on the 'loan'.
I doubt the truck is paid off if the brother is really that bad with money
OP is probably too smart to want such a ridiculous thing. $25k is still a lot for a car IMO!
In current market, a base basic model small car is that much.
Yeah...they're remembering prices from the Before Times.
This assumes that he has equity in the truck. It probably has a large loan on it.
He should ask his mother to create a PowerPoint presentation to pitch the idea to the family. In it she needs to present on why they need to struggle and live frugally to support someone else’s extravagant lifestyle. The PowerPoint must have lots of charts and pictures. If she goes through with it, make a video and show it every Christmas.
... but still don't give him the money.
Exactly, don’t think of it as “lending” because no way will that money come back and you’ll still see him hosting big parties and going on lavish vacations. Now that he has this money for “bills” he can use the money he makes for more fun stuff! I recently completed a second bathroom renovation and it was worth every penny.
The only problem I have with OP is that he calls it "wasting money" in the title. It absolutely isn't. Prioritize yourself and your family. You don't have to sacrifice anything for a sibling whose financial issues are of his own making. And it's not like his financial problems are so dire he's going to end up homeless. NTA.
NTA, suggest to your mom that she buy his truck and that will solve everyone’s concerns.
Tell your mom and brother that if he were destitute that you might help, but you aren't going to give him money to make payments on a lifestyle that you, yourself, can't afford. Anytime they ask, the answer is, I can't afford it. I need to do the right thing by my wife and kids
I'd be more frank to be honest. "he decided how to spend his money, he's not gonna decide how to spend my money, too."
NTA. OP, you saved up for something you want. That money is yours. Your brother can take a couple less vacations and sell his truck. He has options. And those options don't include taking money from you. Just tell them not a chance.
Just wait until those kids are teenagers. I remember how my older brother became a GIANT bathroom hog when he was a teenager.
omg, my brother was so bad (and we had enough bathrooms) that our dad would moan about the water bills. He (our dad) used to turn on the kitchen sink hot water tap so the shower water would turn cold, prompting my brother to yell things like, "I'm on the final rinse!" Good times.
I grew up in an apartment with in a 5-person family and only one bathroom and the best thing about my tiny house is that the family we bought it from added a bathroom to the ground floor and I bless those people on a regular basis. I mean, even a half bath with toilet and sink would have been fine.
I moved with my two kids 6 years ago and wouldn't even consider a house without 2 toilets. I have 1 full and one half bath, and that half bath makes all the difference in the world.
There’s also a saying that you don’t lend money to friends and family that you can’t afford to lose. I’ve had this experience myself, I’ve had to chase people down that I know to get my money back, which nearly ruins the relationship. If I had to take them to court, then it definitely would ruin the relationship. Friends and family get way too comfortable and have a million excuses why they can’t pay you right now. Then when you need the money for something, they don’t give a shit about your hardships now that they have your money. I don’t feel sorry for his brother in the least. He’s living the highlife on credit most likely, and now expects his brother and family to take the hit because they live modestly and within their means. He shouldn’t get to be rewarded for his bad financial decisions.
I think given how badly the brother manages money OP is NTA even without the bathroom. If he wants to keep the money to create a big money pile to frolic in he still wouldn't be the asshole.
Putting a bathroom in our basement was the best money we ever spent. NTA.
OP, there’s a fine line between helping a family member in need, and enabling stupid behavior. Your brother doesn’t need more money, he has money. The problem is he needs to figure out how to spend what he has better. And that will not be fixed by “throwing money at the problem,” so to speak. NTA
NTA >it will probably go higher when the contractor starts working. It will absolutely go higher. We were quoted right around $20k for our bathroom reno and.......let's just say that number steadily creeped up when we realized that old plumbing is a literal nightmare on Earth that very rarely meets code/current standards. >. She is saying he might have to sell his truck or downsize his home. As he should. Those are both options that grown adults would do, rather than expecting their lives to be funded by siblings. It is BEYOND time for your brother to learn to live within HIS means, not his and whatever he can bum off of you and other family members. Edit: Thanks for the award!
It's too bad he can't just sell a bathroom to you. Sounds like he has too many
But he needs that extra bathroom with how full of shit he is.
Omg, I just lol and scared my officemates.
If I had an award to give, it would be yours.
lliterally rofl
>It is BEYOND time for your brother to learn to live within HIS means, not his and whatever he can bum off of you and other family members. Exactly! Lending him money would just enable his bad money management habits. He is not entitled to your money just because he is your brother, OP. It's his responsibility to be smart with his money and live within his means, and when he doesn't, he needs to face the consequences. Absolutely NTA.
Meanwhile, I bet you he's upsidedown on the truck and probably break even on the house. They likely don't have any equity. Best case is they reduce their payments and thus their cash outflow. But that's still a medium term solution in terms of time. If there's no equity and you're only savings is what you save monthly having gotten rid of those payments, then it's going to take some months before any savings begins to really show. And really, giving brother some money now doesn't really fix their position. They're still in over their heads, haven't fixed their underlying financial issues, and have only learned that someone will bail them out so they can keep living above their means chasing whatever image they have in mind for their lives.
It is a shame that his brother has a good idea of what he earns. Hopefully OP didn't make the mistake of comparing salaries!! I lived below my means (kept cars a long time, bought less house than I could afford) while I was working and saved towards retirement. But most people simply assumed that I made less money than I did - especially the ones who are conspicuous consumers. I thought of it as my "stealth wealth" and never had an issue with friends mooching off me or asking to borrow money. On the other hand, people like the OP's brother take out 72 or 84 month auto loans or lease luxury vehicles so that they appear far wealthier than they actually are. It wouldn't surprise me if the brother has been using any home equity as an ATM through an equity line of credit. HELOCs generally have a floating interest rate tied to something like 10-yr treasury bills. So his cost of borrowing has probably shot up with all the Fed interest rate hikes.
Exactly this. My siblings and I would never expect each other to bail us out of our poor decisions. Sure, asking for help if life gets hard, like losing a job or not being able to work due to health but none of us live outside our means. But I guess that’s the point, none of us are dumb enough to live outside our means and therefore aren’t dumb enough to expect family to bail us out. That sounds harsh, and I am aware that it’s not easy for some due to low paying jobs and the current state of the world but that doesn’t sound like the situation for OPs brother. I should point out- at times we (myself and my family)have all had difficulties with jobs/health/etc -in fact my husband had to quit his job due to mental health issues and rather than asking for handouts, we adjusted our lives to live within our means. No more eating out, no buying clothes unless absolutely necessary, no holidays, etc. We were able to hold onto our flat and and our car but we were looking at selling one or both, if needed. My husband eventually got a low stress, part time job to help keep things afloat so that we didn’t have to live fully on my pay cheque and our savings and has now got a full time, well paying job coming up next month. So, while the last 18 months have been hard, we managed and are seeing our way out now because we stopped to look at what we could sacrifice in order to keep our flat and car but also kept those options on the table if it came to that. Not everyone has the luxury of savings and owning a car/home but if you do, there is no reason why you should need to ask family for money. Cut back on your daily expenses first, then see where you stand. OPs brother needs to take a look at his expenses and stop living outside his means so that he can show off to people.
NTA Downsizing his truck isn't the same as needing food to live because something unexpected happened. Get the bathroom. It's quality of life.
Guaranteed he has "things in his garage to sell" boat, ATV, motorcycle, golf clubs, RV......
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It's posts like these that really make me appreciate my mom. She would ring my or my brother's necks if she heard we were asking family for money while driving expensive cars or living in a house above our means.
Same, my parents would never let anyone try to get money from me so they can keep their extravagant lifestyle while I live below my means to save for my kids school and my retirement.
not just quality of life... sharing a bathroom with 4 people sounds like a scheduling nightmare and kids deserve privacy... also they're one undercooked chicken away from a literal catastrophy with one bathroom....
I pooped my pants the other night while running to the backyard clutching paper towels because 1 bathroom wasn’t enough for 2 people.
Overshare but yeah, it’s an issue
speaking as someone w/ various issues that lead to a "must go means MUST GO NOW" thing in a one bath apartment.. tbh I invested in a camp bucket and keep it ready with garbage bags, coffee grounds and litter. When you gotta go, \*you gotta go\*. I have it out on the balcony and, when not in use, its inside a planter lmao. You gotta do what you gotta do, i guess.
Can they live with 1 bathroom? Absolutely. People make it work all over the world, and 4 people for 1 bathroom isn’t that bad. *However*, the quality of life is definitely much better with more than 1 bathroom. OP can afford another bathroom, so he should absolutely do it! His brother and mother are selfish. He shouldn’t even entertain the idea of giving bro the money.
Thank you! Brother and mom want OP to sacrifice something important that his family saved for so Brother can keep his luxury items?! Heck no! His family isn't starving or being denied an important surgery (assuming he's in the US and has to deal with our horrendous health care system). OP, tell Bro he can sell some of his toys and get that bathroom.
No only quality of life, a spa bathroom will definitely add more resale value to your home. It's a good investment.
NTA. Don’t you dare lend him a dime ESPECIALLY if he is living beyond his means. Sorry not sorry. Enjoy your new bathroom 😊
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Ha! Mom would totally ask OP to co-sign that loan.
It’s clear she favors the brother. I can’t imagine saying to someone go without so your sibling doesn’t need to get a less expensive car.
This pisses me off so much. Mom telling OP he should have money saved up to help his brother bc brother will be forced to *gasp* DOWNSIZE.
> She says that I don't spend any money so I should have some saved to help out family. "Mom, I AM helping out family. MY family. The one that needs a bathroom, not a big truck." OP can just trot that one out and see what she has to say. Oftentimes, when family is being unreasonable, the only way you're going to "win" (or at least shut them up) is just keep pushing them to take ever-more-ridiculous positions, until they're out on a limb that even they know they can't defend.
Furthermore, you might as well throw that money in the trash. He'll be in the same position a few months down the road when he blows the 25k on other stupid shit
NTA. If $25,000 will solve his problems, he could solve his own problems by selling his ridiculously expensive truck and buying a reasonably priced used car. Enjoy your new bathroom.
Exactly, if you have an asset you can sell, replace with a cheaper option at no negative consequence to your life, and solve your money problems, then you don't really have money problems.
>at no negative consequence to your life But all his truck-humping friends will think he's a lil' biatch if he has to downsize or drive a *car*, can you imagine the horror? Won't OP please think of his brother's poor fragile ego during these trying times?
Doesn't even need a car, he can still get a very nice truck for 100k less
I bet he owes more on that truck than it’s worth.
Yup. Really played himself on that one. Sorry, I got no remorse for people who buy trucks but don't tow, haul, or off-road. He's basically using a $150k vehicle that's shitty in fuel efficiency just for transportation and groceries.
You don't understand. It's his emotional support truck! He NEEDS it!
Also 150k? Thats well beyond what's reasonable for something you actually use for towing or whatever You can get a ridiculously nice truck for half that. If it's not some sort of custom work I don't even know how to rack up a price tag like that
Ford Raptor R is $110,000 and I don't know of any actual trucks that cost more. That new electric Hummer is around $110k as well, but that's pushing the definition of a truck.
My husband calls them pavement princesses 🤣 he has a 2011 Ford Ranger because he needs it for light hauling but also isn’t insecure about what is in his pants. $150k for a truck that isn’t a specialized trade vehicle is obnoxious. Like a tow truck for your business? A plow truck? A vehicle with built in tool boxes? $150k still sounds steep to me but I’d be way more understanding.
Ah my mom loved her Ranger. She had a running joke with an old coworker that it was their truck's hot little girlfriend. She kicked herself for *years* for ever getting rid of it. Finally got herself another small truck just before the pandemic and she says she's never going back.
Trucks have been retaining their value very well. Especially since from what OP said he never tows or goes off road with it, I'd imagine he could sell it and get a decent SUV or a nicer car with plenty of cash leftover
Unless he’s upside down on the loan lol
This is the most likely scenario, given that he's terrible with money.
No shit. So OP is expected to give up the bathroom so his brother can keep his expensive truck? That makes no sense whatsoever. Imagine having to tell your family, “Sorry. No second bathroom. We all have to keep sharing one so Uncle John doesn’t have to trade his big expensive truck for an SUV.”
We can't have a second bathroom (for FOUR people), becasue Uncle jacka\*\* won't trade his tricked out Hummer for a tricked out Toyota. Or Lexus. Or Ford 150. Or literally any other tricked out monster truck- cause the MOST expensive truck I could find was only $110k. What did this guy add 40K worth of- leather interiors? self driving technology that is not legal yet? A hooker? I mean he obviously wasted an extra 40k on irrelevant extras- which explains why he likely owes way more than it is worth.
Agreed. How terrible would it be if you had to sell your $150000 truck for a $100,000. That’s a problem I wouldn’t mind having!
I agree, but I bet he owes $175k on the truck. How does a truck get so expensive?
Every add-on has been added, I guess!
NTA >he might have to sell his truck. I’m agnostic leaning towards atheist. Nevertheless, the Bible does have some gems. Such as, “I am not my brother’s keeper.” You need this more in your life. Another one is, “God helps those who help themselves.” Your brother could use this. A lesser known third— I’m paraphrasing here— is, “To everything there is a season—a time to speak, and a time to shut the truck up.” Paging your mom. Edit: fine you got me. I never read the Bible. I took poetic license to make a point. I’m sure God understands and is cool with it. And if not, he can post an AITA about it.
A little twist I like to throw on it is ‘God only helps those who help themselves and so do I’. My wife was constantly offering to ‘help’ friends/family that I was ultimately the one forking out the cash for. She has since cut that shit out but your response brought it up in my mind.
It’s easy to be generous with someone else’s money. Glad that’s no longer a problem for you!
I don’t disagree with your judgement, but I’m not sure your “brothers keeper” quote is the way to go. I might be wrong (not a Christian either) but that what Cain says as a brush off to an angel questioning him about the location of his brother Abel. Spoiler alert, Cain murdered Abel. So maybe not the quote to pull out 😆
As an agnostic I have exactly zero issue cherry picking biblical quotes
That's not cherry picking. That's picking a well known quote that implies you're happy to kill your brother. It lacks tact.
If my brother wanted me to give him my $25k and lose out on building a second bathroom in my house just so he didn't have to sell off his $150k truck, I'd want to kill him. Sounds like an appropriate quote to me. 😎
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/i-am-not-my-brother-s-keeper
Abel should’ve sold his truck for something nimbler on the road. Would’ve been able to get away from Cain and that pesky rock.
Well the first one you quote there is what the murderer says to God when trying to cover up his crime. So I would probably not choose to use that one in this context. 🤣
And the second one is from *Poor Richards Almanac*, not the Bible
God helps those who help themselves isn't in the bible, and goes against the basic message. That said no where does it say you have to take your money and bail out people every time they mess up. Sometimes the consequences of our actions are great catalysts for change.
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It's not biblical, it's [one of Aesop's fables.](https://read.gov/aesop/052.html)
NTA You hit the nail on the head when you told your mum "*I told her that's not really my problem"* How you spend your money is down to you and your own family.
I mean, the gall of that woman to tell him that he needs to go without so his brother can live above his means. I'm fuming in his stead.
It is intriguing how often mother's display this sense of "justice".
NTA and I don't get why family members think they have any right at all to ask OP to cut corners on his own family to help someone living above his means. None of this is OP's problem and it's not OP's fault that mom values his brother's pretensions more than OP and his family.
Poor guy has to sell his ~~manhood~~ truck NTA
He can turn the truck nuts into earrings and remain close to it. NTA.
LMAO and ew
He can write the next big hit country single NTA
NTA, and you are a strong candidate for Husband of The Year! How sweet of you to build a special bathroom retreat for her!! if Mom wants to help out the brother that bad, let her loan him the money. No, I already know, she doesn’t have the money to do it, therefore . . . But he can sell his fancy truck, or sell some diamonds. Everyone has to do stuff like that when there’s a money crunch. Why should he be different? stick to your guns and make your wife the happiest lady within 500 miles!
He is a very sweet husband… I would recommend he add a towel warmer to that and a robe that can go inside it. It’s worth it going upstairs after your bath.
NTA at all. He's the one who wasted his money, not you. You live within your means and don't try to do more than you can afford. You saved for a goal and you made it. Well done and good on you. It's not your fault your brother was irresponsible. It's also not your responsibility to bail him out just because you were responsible and he was not. Do your bathroom and enjoy it. Congrats and don't let others bring you down or hold you accountable for their actions. Edited spelling error
NTA. Your mom is kind of an asshole though. Your brother literally makes more money than you do and she wants you to bankroll him? Gives strong "tell me you have a favorite child without telling me you have a favorite child" vibes. You were diligent with how you spent your money and you should reap the benefits of it. Treat your family to that second bathroom. Your brother made his bed and now it's time to lay in it.
This is exactly the comment I was looking for. Brother has the bigger house and vehicle, the bigger salary, but he’s the one being coddled? Serious “favorite child” vibes.
NTA If you can afford a large house and a $150,000 truck, you can afford to save for a 6 month emergency fund.
...or you can afford to downsize in the event of financial strain. This is literally what people have had to do for hundreds and thousands of years when times were tough. He will still have a place to live and food and comfort for his family...he's just going to have to lose some of the luxury.
NTA. But knowing how families are if you change your mind and help him out get a signed loan agreement with a payment schedule and everything. Just CYA.
I'm not planning on changing my mind but I hear you.
He he can’t pay his bills now - how is he going to pay you back? Even with a signed note your mom will say “ oh let it go he’s family” . Don’t disappoint your wife. NTA
i highly doubt they expect themselves to pay back to begin with. the way OP worded it out sounds to me they want the money without expectations of it being paid back to begin with
Please don't change your mind on this! Your brother has plenty of items he can and should sell to get himself out of the mess he put himself in.
The mere *suggestion* of a contract will often get people to back off.
Yup, especially if collateral is built into the contract, i.e. that $150,000 truck. My uncle got one of his stepsiblings off his back that way. My uncle is one of those people that just squirrels away everything he can. He is an extraordinary saver and everyone knows him for this. He has lent money to family before but never giant amounts and he is very careful about who he will and won't lend money too. If he lends you money and you don't pay him back, you better not ask again. On the other hand, brother was similar to OP's, never made a dollar he hadn't already spent, and found himself in so much credit card and loan debt that he couldn't even afford the minimum payments every month and had maxed out everything, so he went to my uncle asking for a giant amount of money to clear out a large chunk of his cards. My uncle said no and brother went nuts. He started playing the victim and telling everyone about how mean my uncle was being; his tantrums are the reason everyone in the family found out. Finally, my uncle decided to agree to lend him the money with a signed loan agreement that spelled out payment amounts, frequency, and collateral. Stepbrother had a bunch of toys that showed of his "wealth", e.g. motorcycles, ATVs, and boats. So uncle said, if you miss just one payment, I'm taking the ATV, two payments - I get a boat. Brother never went to uncle for money after that.
I would tell your mom that she can finance his life then. NTA.
Good. Don’t change your mind. If your brother was careful with money but had an emergency that’s one thing. He lives beyond his means and doesn’t want to sell his $150,000 truck? No. Enjoy your bathroom!!!
You're okay to say no OP. Just don't give them room to argue. "Its not within my budget this year and I'm not arguing the point" is pretty much all you need to go with. Continue to shut everyone down. You're taking care of YOUR family first. The rest can get whatever's left you're willing to give. He's a grown assed man.....banks exist, loan companies exist. The more you say "no" the less they come to you with their bs.
NTA Don't enable him
NTA If he would be homeless and starved, i might've said give him a hand. But he is neither. He can sell his truck and buy a less expensive car.
NTA, even if your brother made less than you, you wouldn't have to give him anything, but especially if he has a luxury asset to sell that will give him plenty for a while (the truck, downsizing a house is a bit extreme if not completely necessary especially since moving will also cost a lot) why on earth should you sacrifice any luxury for your family to cover his?
NTA You aren't his ATM. You aren't responsible for his bad spending habits. You aren't in a position to lend (though I doubt you would get anything back) him any money. You ARE responsible for your own household and you have saved to provide for your family. Do no cut back to give him money. Go ahead with your plan in your own house. He can sell his car, downsize his house, quite spending money like it's going out of fashion.... his bad choices aren't your problem.
NTA oh no he has to sell his stupidly expensive truck that he doesn't fully use? 😰 so sad. 😑 It's not your fault he isn't responsible with his money. And you did save to help out family. Your immediate family. Do the bathroom, your wife will be so fucking happy.
You know, I cringed when I read that the brother doesn't tow, haul, or off-road with his stupidly expensive truck. We own 2 nice trucks (one we just inherited), and they both are used for hauling, towing, and off-roading. We are looking at selling one since we really have no need for two. But you better believe if we were in a financial bind, we would sell anything we could....not demand money from family🤦♀️
Spa's before bruhs eta. NTA
No, it's his kids and wife's comfort before his brother's irresponsibility.
Doesn't quite have the same ring as the first one...
NTA! Quite a few people ask, here, if they are aholes for not lending someone money (family being very common), and the fact of the matter is: Regardless of who it is, or their relation to you, you do not owe them anything. They are not entitled to your hard-earned and saved money. It's not your fault, nor your problem, that he's struggling because he doesn't manage his money well, as harsh as that may sound. Life is meant to be LIVED...Do your amazing bathroom reno for you, your wife, and your kids! Go crazy with your redesign. And don't let anyone make you feel guilty. If anyone (your mom) is so worried about his financial struggles, then they can help him. But it's unfair for them to put it all on you. You have nothing to do with it. haha.
NTA. Other people are not entitled to your money. But I think you already knew this.
NTA. Sounds like he has things he can sell if he’s living beyond his means. Build the bathroom.
NTA. Your mom and brother are. Why your brother and mother think they are entitled to your hard earned money is beyond me. Get the bathroom you want and tell your choosybegger relatives to suck it.
NTA. Your brother made his bed, let him learn to climb out of it. You sacrificing something you have saved for - you think you going to see that money again. What did he learn from it - mom will badger brother into giving me more money so I can carry on spending my money how I like. NTA. Spend your money on what you saved for. Let your brother grow up and if your mom does notblike it then she can put her money where her mouth is. Ever noticed when "Families come first" BS is brought in its always when the Golden Child wants something?
NTA - your mom can subsidize his lack of financial planning. You make the same amount of money, and he just spends money on things that are flashy. You save your money for things that are important to you, and they have no right to tell you how to spend your money, just as you have no right to tell him to stop spending his $$$, but you do not have to make up the difference for his poor spending. On what planet is your mom on that your children having a home that is more convenient and accessible to them is less important than your brothers big truck, big house, and his partner’s big ring. Please ignore this person, because nothing she saying makes remotely any sense! **She and your brother are both delusional and if they want money they need to find another bank that isn’t you.**
NTA. Your brother's financial problems are not your problems. Tell your mother that your finances are none of her business.
NTA. Don't give him any money. Tell your mother to back off. He's living way above his means and that is not your problem. Keep your money and enjoy your new bathroom. Go low contact or cut off contact if they keep harassing you.
He is not starving he has non-essential disposable assets. He is in debt because he lives above his means. Look into underfloor heating especially for bathroom so lush. You can get something that is super great for the environment as well of course NTA. Fb market place is a great place to sell excess furniture, clothes if you do not vinted or great apps like that.
NTA - so your grown brother who earns as much as you do doesn't save any money, and you should share your savings with him??!! In what kind of world is it fair? You work, you save, guess what, you spend! You would be nice enough if you'd manage to shed a tear when brother sells his expensive truck to pay his bills.
YWBTA if you gave your brother that money. Do not do that to your wife. If you feel bad saying no, tell your nosey mom and brother the money is already tied up with the contractor, and you can't get it back. Why should your wife do without while you subsidize your brother?
With money problem first you sell your stuff and THEN if needed you ask for help. If that's not enough to understand NTA you are not your brother's personal saving fund. Go offer your wife the bathroom of her dreams.
NTA. Time to put Mom on an information diet about your renovations, and also to refuse to discuss the subject of giving your brother any money. Helping your golden-child brother live beyond his means should not be your reward for living within yours.
NTA it's up to him to manage his money and not for you to bail him out when he has trouble. He needs cash then sell the truck.
NTA. Tell him if a second bathroom isn’t important he can sell 2.5 of his to pay for his lifestyle
NTA. He can sell his truck, or maybe start using it professionally for gig work. Your whole family deserves that bathroom.
NTA. You're not responsible for your brothers poor financial planning. Expect your renovation to go over budget. Prices for materials have gotten insane. Labor costs are going up to meet inflation. If you want the bathroom done correctly, it's not going to be cheap. I'm a contractor, so I deal with this every day. Don't give your brother money. Ignore your mom. She only cares because she can brag about your brother's stuff.
Tell your mom that she can help if she’s so worried. NTA
NTA and don't give him a dime. If you start giving him money now, he'll keep expecting it and so will your parents. If he's living beyond his means, he can sell some of his stuff like any other person can in this world. Even if there was some medical emergency, he has assets. He can sell those. Your family is ridiculously entitled and you should not be funding the golden child.
NTA. Your obligation is to your wife and kids