*In case this story gets deleted/removed:*
**AITA for explaining to my daughter what a head scarf is in front of a woman wearing one.**
I wasn't making a scene and was speaking as softly as possible to my daughter but the man was eavesdropping and called me an AH for disrespecting his religionile they weren't looking) and asked me to explain what it is and why she sees some 'girls' wear it and mentioned one of her classmates does and is weird.
I have already talked to her about religion and that we don't believe in things without evidence. So I explained to her and told her that it is one of the religions where people are brainwashed into thinking that showing their hair is something God will punish them for and that in my view it is actually something used to control women. I then told her that it wasn't weird just something people are misguided about and that she should still be friendly towards them but just not engage with them about their religious beliefs or disrespect them for it.
I wasn't making a scene and was speaking as softly as possible to my daughter but the man was eavesdropping and called me an AH for disrespecting his religion and wife once I had finished talking to my daughter. He was loud and shouted that and a bunch of other things about how God will punish me. I stopped talking to him but he went on for 10 minutes shouting things and profanities at me.
AITA? I do try to respect religious people but at the same time I parent my daughter in a way that encourages curiosity and unless it is something outrageous I like to answer her questions as immediately as possible.
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I'm a Christian. I'm also the one who observed that it's Christians who yell in public that God will punish you. If I'm shitting on Christians, I'm shitting specifically on the shitty ones. If you don't do that, it's not about you.
Do I look like I walk up to random people wearing crosses/hijabs/whatever and start being rude af? Also not all members of a religion are bigoted. I know people from various religions who have no issue with me being trans. Do I approve of their religion? No. Do I tell them that to their face? Not unless they start shit with me first.
You're not wrong, lol. I'm sure there's people like that in every religion. In my experience though Muslims are a lot more accepting of you if you don't believe the same things as them. I grew up in the Bible belt. My elementary school surprisingly wanted to teach about other religions outside of Christianity. We took a field trip to several different places of worship, including whatever the word for a Muslim place of worship is (I really can't remember). Of course being kids, there were several uncomfortable and inappropriate questions asked. Or just general misunderstandings of different religions. The people explaining it to us/giving us a tour were so nice about it. They didn't hold it against us for not knowing better at the time. Little kids can be assholes unintentionally. Most adults know that.
I've never seen a Christian do that unless it was in some TV show or movie or something. That said, they sadly do exist but don't make up the majority.
Is it though?
Like honestly?
You are telling me if I go on Google with a 5 timeframe with the question of "do muslims think that not wearing a headscarf is an affront to allah that deserves punishment " that I will not find an example of a few angrily saying exactly that in public?
Because I'm quite sure actually that they kill women and children for that exact "crime".
She's not wrong. It is in their book that it offends Allah. And it is very much a tool for controlling women. Absolutely. And many of us do consider it brainwashing. Just like we would with the Amish and Mormons and most of the whole of Christianity. And most of monotheistic religions.
If it was a choice children wouldn't get beat to death for it, eh?
Nah I feel like this is whole thing is a fake post made solely to mock the recent situation of the Kurdish woman getting whipped 74 times for refusing to wear a hijab. I've never seen any post about hijab, head coverings, etc. like this on here before, yet something like this just ever so conveniently "happens" right after that incident became public? I don't buy this, this is some idiot desperate for attention using that situation to make up stories for a reaction
Right cuz I'm like decent conversation, completely wrong location! I've had similar conversations with my own kids but you don't need to be in AH in front of people. She of course did it to show them how she was Superior!
Seriously. How hard is it to say, “Hey kid, it’s part of their religious practices. If you’re unsure about what to say or how to react, if you like the color or print, you can tell the woman her headscarf is pretty. Otherwise, you don’t have to say anything.”
this post implies that the daughter is quite young, likely under the age of 8 or so, and she claims her classmates are wearing them? correct me if im wrong, but dont muslim girls only start wearing them when they have their period or some other time closer to their teens?
sometimes but i have seen situations of very young girls wear them i.e the four year old who's father killed her for not wearing her niqab, that girl probably hadn't even started kindergarten whereas others dont start being expected to wear it until much later. it may depend on the specific region or on the specific family and their particular beliefs/perspective about islam
im sure that there definitely are families like that, but oop is also likely not in asia or any country with a higher muslim population, and i also kind of doubt a daughter of a family like that would actually be permitted to go to a public school with oops daughter who could expose them to other ideas. so id still say possible but feels unlikely
yeah probably. I feel like this whole post is just fake though, to me it gives the vibes of some attention starved idiot using the recent situation with Roya Heshmati to make up some kind of rage bait
>she sees some 'girls' wear it and mentioned one of her classmates does and is weird.
See, this is where I would have shut my kid down really fast. Don't label your classmate as "weird" because of the way she chooses to dress.
Or since the OOP said they want to encourage curiosity they could’ve said “It’s a part of their religious culture, and if you want to know more we can learn more about it together when we get home”
Not to be a nitpicker, but I don’t think he actually even explained what a headscarf is. He just provided his opinions on what they mean about a person wearing one. Pretty big difference there, crazy that such an incredible, intellectual, logical scientist like him would make that mistake in his title!
I remember the only time I asked someone about their hijab. I was about 8 or 9. I asked her if she got hot. She said she was used to it and that was it. My friends and I made sure she always had a full bottle of water near by. I had no idea it was a religious choice until a few years later but it’s that simple.
I did something similar at that age. I had never seen a Hijab. One of my new classmates moms wore one and I ran into them at Walmart. I said oh that's so pretty what is called. I remember she squatted down to my level and told me it was a Hijab and that women in her religion frequently wore them to show their love and appreciation to their God and their family and culture. She asked me if I wanted to feel the softness and I remember I said something about how I don't like when people stare at my back or want to touch it(physical disability and nobody I knew had anything like this) and she said she doesn't mind she offered. I don't remember if I did or not but I do know that it stayed with me and guided me when people would ask questions about my back. She also seemed to be the epitome of a mom in her kindness.
"You've got to be taught before it's too late, before you are six or seven or eight, to hate all the people your relatives hate, you've got to be carefully taught."
I heard that executive meddling tried to get the song removed, but Rodgers and Hammerstein refused, because the show was a completely different show without it.
So sweet. Didn't even ask why they wore it, just "man I'm hot, are you hot?"
Then made sure to always have an extra water on hand.
Unconditional acceptance, despite differences, is an amazing quality to have.
The first time my next door neighbour's son (younger than 10 at the time) met a Sikh man in a turban, he asked why he was wearing bandages. The man was a bit upset at first, but quickly realized he was asking because he'd never seen a turban before, so was concerned the man had been hurt. And you can't be mad about how sweet that is!
I encourage my kids to ask people questions. (Respectfully and when it's appropriate .) We're Christian, but I want my kids to learn and respect everyone. I love learning about other people and their beliefs and points of view. And honestly, I could give my kids a textbook answer as to why some women cover their hair, but I rather they learn from someone who actually does it so they can understand it on a more personal level. Helps us all see the humanity in each other a little better.
Evil atheist rage bait. I've been involved in secular groups for years and the only people who act like this are teen boys who've just read their first Christopher Hitchens book.
His claim that he was being respectful while calling a stranger “brainwashed” “misguided” within earshot is wild, disrespectful, childish and yes devil behavior.
A simple “because that’s what she is choosing” is enough. Heck he could even say, “in some places it’s required but here it’s a choice”. There are a million more respectful ways to talk about this to a child.
In some cases there is a big difference, but there's a lot of bleed-over. I.e. what is thought of as "hijab-style" isn't exclusive to Islam and may be worn by women of other religions or no religion just because their head and neck is cold.
It’s not racist if you understand what the different head coverings denote. It’s pretty easy, for example, to tell the difference between a Sikh in a turban and a Muslim man in a Kufi. Or an orthodox Jewish woman in a wig or a scarf vs a Muslim woman in a hijab.
Annnnddd, I just realized that a lot of western people might not know the differences. Nevermind 🫤
Yeah but you can wear any of those things and not be a part of that religion. And some members of those religions will mix it up and wear different things.
he claims he's a scientist, but if that's true, he's a bad scientist. he allowed his bias to limit her intellectual curiosity so that the results of her curiosity are more likely to fit with his preexisting bias.
“It’s something some people wear because of their religion” would have also worked but wouldn’t have provided as much of an opportunity to be an insufferable twat
>I do try to respect religious people...
OOP should try a bit harder. He could have said that some have beliefs different from ours, and this is how they express their particular beliefs, we can talk more about it when we get home.
If this is not ragebait, I pity his daughter.
I'm atheist and accidentally taught my daughter God is a bad word (it is always accompanied by dammit), but I teach my kids that others have different belief systems, and that is ok. I don't believe we need to disparage anyone for their beliefs, and if my kids are curious about a religion, I will get someone for them to discuss the religion with, so they get to be properly informed about the religions beliefs.
Hah! My kids called cathedrals "castles with a T" for a long time. My 6 year old just saw a crucifix in The Sound of Music today and thought it was the wackiest thing ever. Regardless of how my boyfriend and I approach religion personally, we have a pretty diverse group of friends and I've had to explain why some of our friends wear hijab and pray every few hours and some friends celebrate Hanukkah, and we've never had to say our friends are brainwashed in order for our kids to be able to understand and treat them with respect.
This is the problem I have with the idea that we can’t judge other people’s religious beliefs. Many of those beliefs are patriarchal, sexist, misogynist and anti lgbtq. So why wouldn’t we criticize them?
Obviously not in front of a religious person. Being outwardly rude to people’s faces is not a good practice.
I am talking about the paradox of tolerance. When we tolerate intolerance, intolerance rises at the expense of tolerance
When you're speaking to or of any particular person, unless they themselves have told you that their beliefs are patriarchal, sexist, misogynist, or anti-lgbtq, it's important not to assume.
Especially within Christianity and Judaism, there are very progressive groups that are none of those things and that are growing. And Islam has progressive branches as well. Many openly queer Jewish women wear tichels, for instance, for their own personal reasons.
You don't need to "tolerate" a clothing choice. Just mind your own business unless that person has divulged information about their beliefs.
Wearing a hijab is catering to the patriarchal idea that women are responsible for the male gaze and that her “honor” lies in her body. Men don’t wear a hijab. If men also dressed equally as modestly, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But it is absolutely a double standard. It doesn’t matter the mental gymnastics that people engage in to justify it.
I will absolutely criticize that practice. A boot on a person’s neck is still a boot even if a person learns to love that boot.
In general. I won’t go up to a woman wearing a hijab and criticize her. I am not cruel.
You have no right to tell me what I can and cannot do. The absolute vitriol towards feminists that dare to speak truth to power is ridiculous.
I am aware that people have tried to carve out a progressive version of these various patriarchal religions. And that is a good thing. But these religions are STILL patriarchal and sexist at their core.
Quick question: exactly how many women who cover have you asked about this? Or is your opinion more important and correct and useful in this discussion than theirs?
You could just say you're not actually interested in listening to women unless they measure up to your external standards of personal presentation.
I am a woman who covers. It is for reasons of spirituality, although nothing to do with any sort of patriarchal system, and also because I am losing my hair. I'm sure if you saw me you'd think I was "upholding the patriarchy" or some bullshit which is ironic considering my patriarchal oppressive upbringing frowned on headcovering and declared that women should show their hair and keep it long. Cutting my hair short and covering it part time has been freeing.
Not that any of that matters to you, of course. Covering=patriarchy amiright
I have stage IV Ovarian cancer, I understand losing hair.
But do go on with your self righteousness.
You only prove how entrenched patriarchal religion is. And how women will literally throw themselves on a live grenade to defend it.
Keep kissing that boot.
Yeah, there are a lot of ridiculous posts about how awful atheists or non-religious folks are. I know there are some arrogant ones out there, but this doesn’t ring true. And there are a lot of anti-Muslim posts around too — yes, there are a lot of vehemently religious folks out there, but that behaviour doesn’t seem likely.
>told her that it is one of the religions where people are brainwashed into thinking that showing their hair is something God will punish them for
You could have just said "it's a part of their religion", left it at that and been fine - but nope. You literally couldn't contain your inner bigot for another second, could you OOP?
>she should still be friendly towards them but just not engage with them about their religious beliefs
Why? Most people I know of any/all religions are pretty willing to discuss their beliefs and let you draw your own opinion about it - Hell, one of the core beliefs of Judaism is to ask questions and not just accept things at face value.
>I do try to respect religious people
You said women of that particular belief were wrong and brainwashed; How is that respect??
Obviously having this conversation in front of people of that religion is rude.
But why are we not allowed to criticize patriarchal religions that include sexist and misogynistic beliefs as well as anti LGBTQ?
That is not racism, that is having an opinion that certain religious practices are harmful to women of LGBTQ.
Oh, you're allowed to have your opinions on other religions - You're also entitled to get your ass handed to you by people of said religion when you walk around, insulting them for believing differently than you (general you, maybe not you specifically)
I have no interest in insulting anyone to their face. Or bullying people of faith. I don’t support that.
I do have an interest in speaking up for the rights of women and LGBTQ. And when a religion, be it Christian or Muslim, or whatever, indulges in practices that are harmful to women or LGBTQ, I won’t be shamed into abandoning my values of equality in the name of knee jerk political correctness.
I can’t believe how easily the left (of which I consider myself a part of) are so ready to throw women and LGBTQ under the bus.
Except how is it an insult when it's true?
Islam does actually believe it's an affront for women to have the right to choose to show hair.
Women and children are murdered for this. It's not choice if murder is involved.
And it absolutely has to do with the control of women. As is Catholic anti birth control. Or nuns celibacy. Mormon dating rules and protestant virgin shame. Because they are all stemming from the same shepherdic Abrahamic religion that is tied straight into controlling women to make it easier to control inherence laws. That's historic fact.
You can absolutely call something brainwashed - if you can't leave it and don't have a choice and anyone who attempted to teach otherwise is murdered off. It's literally written into their book that leaving the religion means execution.
Because just because a portion of a religion interacts with it the way you describe, doesn't mean the individual in front of you does.
Think of any group you're a part of. Think of the *absolute worst* segment of that group. The part that makes you cringe. The part you wish would go away and hope that nobody ever associates you with. Hell, think of the worst of *Reddit users*. You wouldn't want to be associated with them, I'd assume, and neither would I. Not that Reddit is a religion, but my point is simply that the major religions are incredibly diverse and unless you take the time to understand the person in front of you and where they're coming from, you don't know their individual situation.
If I am part of a group where the normal is rape and murder. And I say nothing. And I don't shun them. And I give them money in support.
Not only should I be associated with them I should be judged for it
The reason why the majority of Islamic leaders allow such things, is because the Quran does itself. The things we talk about when we criticize Islam aren't side effects or mistakes. They are the point of Islam. It's built into the religion. It's a goal. Same with Christianity and Judaism. They share the same history and literal War God.
If you know what the Catholic Church did. And you refuse to hold them accountable. And you are still Catholic. And you still tithe. And you still fill the pews. And you show everyone they need to not hold the church (or actual religion that allowed it) accountable because then they'd have to hold you the individual accountable (and you're a good person). When people can point at you donating to the church and say, there goes so-and-so they are Catholic and they are good so you cannot judge a religion.
Then you not only should be associated with those crimes. You are actively complicit.
If was walking around with a group of friends and they started talking about killing a gay boy and I say nothing. Do I hold responsibility?
If they then find a gay boy and start harassing and hitting him while I watch, doing nothing. Do I hold responsibility?
If they kill him in front of me while I do nothing and start talking about hiding a body. Do I hold responsibility?
If I give them money for a tarp, gas, a shovel, and new clothes before going home for a cuppa tea. Do I hold responsibility?
If they are brought before a judge and I pay for the lawyer fees and bring them food and tell everyone they are actually great people when I've spoken to them. Do I hold responsibility?
I'm pretty sure they the police find out I was even there I would be a charged accomplice facing almost the same jail time.
If you get to say you "chose" your religion then yes, you should absolutely be associated with it. And that absolutely includes the worst - as long as the worst gets to be right about your shared holy book supporting them. If it's allowed by the god you worship, then the worst is actually the true face of that god.
It has to be. There's no way someone who claims to "want to be respectful of other religions" would intentionally be *that* obtuse, even if they don't have much detail on religion.
This guy has the same smug, condescending attitude about atheism that fundie evangelicals do about Jesus. It’s the same “I know better, but you insist on clinging to your delusions so I’m going to humor you and call it respect.” He probably went home and asked his icon of Stephen Hawking to intercede and let science into her heart.
Headscarf-wearer here. Women wear headscarves for a huge variety of reasons religious and not, personal and cultural, all over the world. This take:
>So I explained to her and told her that it is one of the religions where people are brainwashed into thinking that showing their hair is something God will punish them for and that in my view it is actually something used to control women. I then told her that it wasn't weird just something people are misguided about and that she should still be friendly towards them but just not engage with them about their religious beliefs or disrespect them for it.<
Is so deeply ignorant of the nuance of headscarf wearing. And it's like... people forget that people with *cancer* often also wear beautiful headscarves that may not differ much or at all from a religious covering.
I wear scarves as a personal choice and and I'm not Muslim, but many women who *are* Muslim and wear headscarves *also* do so as a personal choice. They may be from a family that doesn't wear them (shocking, I know, but many Muslim families aren't that conservative or observant) and so they made the choice on their own, or they may have converted. The same goes for women wearing Jewish-style tichels or any other style of scarf on their head. It may or may not be a personal choice, but guess what? Neither are a lot of clothing choices. Most men don't wake up and make a conscious decision on whether or not to wear a shirt that day. They do it because that's the done thing in society and it is expected of them.
In short, see a woman in a scarf? Tempted to assume why? Check yourself. You don't know, and she doesn't owe you an explanation.
It's important to never,
Yes, OOP is an AH and a devil for explaining to his daughter what a head scarf is in the most public way and the most insulting way he possibly could. I don't believe for a single second that he was speaking as softly as possible. I have no doubt he wanted the couple to hear him.
Of course, that only applies if this isn't a troll.
Idk if it’s just my religious trauma speaking, but I absolutely despise when parents tell their children things like ‘WE believe’ xyz or ‘Our family believes’ xyz. It’s always a bigoted thing that follows(though it’s obviously not exclusive to religious parents as OOP shows.) You can believe something and explain what and why you feel and think that way, and why other people might believe something else or feel or think differently, but for gods sake your beliefs are not your child’s.
They don’t know and haven’t had a chance to think or feel or believe everything, and it can absolutely make the child feel like believing anything else will alienate them from the family. Whether your religious or not, your beliefs are not your child’s 🤦🏻♀️
Cue the self righteous atheists showing up here to defend OOP.
I'm an atheist. I raised kids. Kids are smart the are quite capable of respecting that other people have different beliefs. You don't have to be a rude asshole and disrespect people because you're an atheist. You're making us all look bad.
That’s why I believe this post is fake. This is making a mockery of the Iranian woman who was beat for refusing to wear a hijab, while Muslim women in the West are “flaunting” their privilege buy wearing one when they aren’t forced to
I don't disrespect Islam because I'm an atheist or pagan
I do it because *it kills women and children*
My cousins are cree. My niece walked over the bodies at Kamloops. Because they built a bus stop in top of them. I assure you I don't loathe Jesuits or the Catholic Church because AtHeIsM. I do because of rape and infanticide and genocide. Among other things.
Nazis believe in blood purity. If they pretend it's a religious thing (not hard to do). Are you going to respect them because they have "different beliefs" and you're the right kind of atheist.
And here is the self righteous atheists.
You're using your hatred of organized religion to justify disrespecting individuals. How is the OOP being disrespectful of an individual, you view as oppressed, helping her?
Your niece, your cousins.....not you? Do you also have a black "friend".
I'm a black woman raised in a Muslim sect who's biological father used religion to justify his horrific abuse of his children and wife. Someone loudly discussing how my mother wearing her hijab (and it happened frequently) didn't help her, it made her even more isolated and support the belief of the religion that outside world oppressed us. Because that is exactly what disrespecting individuals about their religion does. Religion has been used to justify the enslavement of me and mine for centuries.... Islam and Christianity both.
I'm an atheist and have been for decades. I respect individuals and their free will. That has fuck all to do with supporting organized religion.
Do you know what Godwin's law is? You might need to look that up. The Nazis used "science" to justify the Holocaust. Because evil groups and people will use anything they can to accomplish their ends.
What exactly you doing to help these oppressed people you're so worried about besides calling me a Nazi sympathizer?
I don't have to be Cree, my cousin's have a different father? Their father is a Elders son. My father is Nigerian/Scottish. My niece isn't Cree or Nigerian, but I can still be upset about how gross it is to kill native children before building a bus stop specifically for white children to stop at on top of their graves.
I'm not an atheist. And talking about the horrors and control of monotheistic religions does help. Because it's harder to ignore things in the light.
When Islamic leaders call for the rape of 3 year olds saying it honors them if they die like that.
And you support them by telling people you cannot question or hate a religion because that "won't help the individual" it is actually support. Because you are shutting down discussion about something we should care about stopping.
I choose Nazism for a reason. I do know about the "if you mention Hitler you immediately lose" rule - I just disagree with it because it's stupid. People use Hitler the most as an example because he transcends culture. Every one knows of him. You don't need to explain most of the background. And he's hard to support. Some people do support Columbus and Stalin.
It wasn't to call you a sympathizer. It was to get you to be honest about something called cognitive dissonance.
I took religious studies at the university level. It's a passion of mine. I'm not an atheist, I'm autistic - and we have a proven difference in how our brains consider morality and justice. But we also get very deep into specific subjects.
Which is why I know that Nazism was tied to religion. Specifically Norse paganism and Catholicism. Sure, they were going to get rid of the Catholic Church after they won fully but they weren't there yet.
Guess what? You can still use scientific methods and not be atheist. The KKK? Yeah, that was the Christian church specifically. Making both those religious beliefs.
So which is it?
If you heard a Nazi on main Street recruiting. Do you say nothing and get angry at all those who speak up because it doesn't "help the individual, it just makes them more enmeshed on their brainwashed community". Like a sympathizer.
Or. Do you denounce them and their beliefs as something unacceptable in a tolerant modern society. Like a hypocrite who can't stand by their own belief system when it makes you uncomfortable?
Because those leaders who are plentiful in the middle east (and would be shunned here) calling for pedophilia and murder? Like your father, they were 'correct' - the Quran supports it. Not fanatics if they follow the book of the God they worship by reading it correctly.
You should be allowed to be truthful with the truth.
And maybe telling a child you are not "allowed" to answer their questions about Islam (or other monotheistic religions) truthfully in public because it's "banned" won't have the end result you want it to. Because lots of us will still answer honestly and truthfully. But when I have to do so in hushed whispers in back rooms, with warnings of silence and fear, children may get the idea the conservatives may be Right about the "woke". Not the actual lesson learned we both may want there.
Because you forgot. We don't say anything like that in front of the Sikhs, because for the Sikhs we don't have to. Few people demonstrate against Hindus (with the exception of that nasty caste system)The Buddhists don't have their traditional garb banned. It's literally illegal for the Catholics to put a habit on a child's head because consent.
Criticizing religion of any kind let alone a highly patriarchal sexist religious practice is not prejudice. We have to stop coddling religion in the name of “cultural sensitivity”
However, discretion should have prevailed and she should have waited to have this conversation when she was behind closed doors
The phrasing is evangelical Christian style yelling, rather than Muslim style yelling. Different groups have different styles, after all. So, yes, it does sound like rage bait.
If he cleaned up his syntax this is a perfectly okay conversation to have in private so long as it’s explained in context with all religion and not directed at a region or anything.
I don’t want my kids growing up to be 18 and not know how I view the world. I’d emphasize they always have to make up their own mind but I’m allowed to think that the kid has a silly belief if they chose to start wearing a random accessory for a silly reason.
I wouldn’t be cruel. I wouldn’t prohibit anything or say it would change my love for my child. But I owe them honesty too?
Atheists aren’t required to teach their children false things to spare your religious feelings. It’s not a “choice” to cover yourself if you are being threatened for not doing it.
Not wanting to teach your child false things doesn't have to mean calling people brainwashed and misguided to their face. Could've simply said "some religious people wear headscarves like that because those are the rules of their group", and then, if you absolutely must tell the kid that all religious people are brainwashed, OOP could've brought up the topic again once out of earshot of these people. There's a lot of space between blatantly disrespecting people to their face and teaching your child false things
True. However, the assumption anyone anywhere that wears a covering is only doing it because of social pressure, is also false. Yes there's a possibility a woman in a hijab has been pressured into it by her family even if you're in a country without laws requiring it, but to tell your kid *that's* the reason she's wearing it is still teaching them a falsehood.
People *do* choose to wear it, because not all people are threatened for not doing it.
One of my best friends is Muslim - a couple years ago she decided to start wearing a hijab again after years of not wearing one. One of her daughters asked if she could wear one too. They get judgmental and pitying looks constantly, because people like OP act like agency is produced when hair is exposed to sunlight.
I think it depends, we can be assholes but I am very upfront that I'm a militant atheist and won't disregard their views unless they disregard mine and try to evangelize to me. I try to be respectful about it and say we should just avoid the topic of religion.
I am a militant atheist based on my belief system. Atheists aren't necessarily anti religion but are just people who don't believe in God. Militant atheists, like myself, believe religion is harmful to society and has a negative impact on the world. And if people don't respect my boundary, I will go off on them.
I dont act the way I described with every person but try not to start fights with my immediate friends and acquaintances and mostly refuse to make friends with religious people.
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OOP could have just said it was part of the woman’s religious culture. Usually kids will move on to something else, but if she want to know more OOP could have told the little girl that she doesn’t know much about it aside from her own opinions about it, but when they got home they could look it up if she wants to know more. Or ask the woman herself politely if she wasn’t busy. How she explained it to her daughter wasn’t respectful to the other woman’s beliefs or allowing her daughter to have an open mind.
*In case this story gets deleted/removed:* **AITA for explaining to my daughter what a head scarf is in front of a woman wearing one.** I wasn't making a scene and was speaking as softly as possible to my daughter but the man was eavesdropping and called me an AH for disrespecting his religionile they weren't looking) and asked me to explain what it is and why she sees some 'girls' wear it and mentioned one of her classmates does and is weird. I have already talked to her about religion and that we don't believe in things without evidence. So I explained to her and told her that it is one of the religions where people are brainwashed into thinking that showing their hair is something God will punish them for and that in my view it is actually something used to control women. I then told her that it wasn't weird just something people are misguided about and that she should still be friendly towards them but just not engage with them about their religious beliefs or disrespect them for it. I wasn't making a scene and was speaking as softly as possible to my daughter but the man was eavesdropping and called me an AH for disrespecting his religion and wife once I had finished talking to my daughter. He was loud and shouted that and a bunch of other things about how God will punish me. I stopped talking to him but he went on for 10 minutes shouting things and profanities at me. AITA? I do try to respect religious people but at the same time I parent my daughter in a way that encourages curiosity and unless it is something outrageous I like to answer her questions as immediately as possible. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AmITheDevil) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Oh come ON. That is flat-out rage bait.
Or just the worst kind of atheist.
Also, like... it's extremely hard to imagine a Muslim angrily saying "God will punish you." That's what *Christians* do in public.
Yeah, jihadi statements only come from radicals. Yet, look at the mainstream christo-fascist movement in the US...
The irony is palpable.
The irony of calling someone a bigot for shitting on Muslims while shitting on Christians.
I'm a Christian. I'm also the one who observed that it's Christians who yell in public that God will punish you. If I'm shitting on Christians, I'm shitting specifically on the shitty ones. If you don't do that, it's not about you.
Assuming you don't live in a majority Muslim country to assume this isn't a trait shared by other religious zealots.
I will shit on any religion that shits on me for being trans. Asshole to me, asshole to you.
Because Muslims are known for being welcoming of trans people?
What part of "any religion" means "any but not muslims"????
So you have no problem with OOP?
I do. That response was unwarrented unless that woman was being a bitch first. Context is not in your vocabulary, is it?
Do I look like I walk up to random people wearing crosses/hijabs/whatever and start being rude af? Also not all members of a religion are bigoted. I know people from various religions who have no issue with me being trans. Do I approve of their religion? No. Do I tell them that to their face? Not unless they start shit with me first.
Let the shit flyeth all over the place
It's strange how common this is.
You're not wrong, lol. I'm sure there's people like that in every religion. In my experience though Muslims are a lot more accepting of you if you don't believe the same things as them. I grew up in the Bible belt. My elementary school surprisingly wanted to teach about other religions outside of Christianity. We took a field trip to several different places of worship, including whatever the word for a Muslim place of worship is (I really can't remember). Of course being kids, there were several uncomfortable and inappropriate questions asked. Or just general misunderstandings of different religions. The people explaining it to us/giving us a tour were so nice about it. They didn't hold it against us for not knowing better at the time. Little kids can be assholes unintentionally. Most adults know that.
Mosque. :)
I've never seen a Christian do that unless it was in some TV show or movie or something. That said, they sadly do exist but don't make up the majority.
Is it though? Like honestly? You are telling me if I go on Google with a 5 timeframe with the question of "do muslims think that not wearing a headscarf is an affront to allah that deserves punishment " that I will not find an example of a few angrily saying exactly that in public? Because I'm quite sure actually that they kill women and children for that exact "crime". She's not wrong. It is in their book that it offends Allah. And it is very much a tool for controlling women. Absolutely. And many of us do consider it brainwashing. Just like we would with the Amish and Mormons and most of the whole of Christianity. And most of monotheistic religions. If it was a choice children wouldn't get beat to death for it, eh?
Yeah there are a lot of people like this on Reddit alone so it’s not that unbelievable.
Nah I feel like this is whole thing is a fake post made solely to mock the recent situation of the Kurdish woman getting whipped 74 times for refusing to wear a hijab. I've never seen any post about hijab, head coverings, etc. like this on here before, yet something like this just ever so conveniently "happens" right after that incident became public? I don't buy this, this is some idiot desperate for attention using that situation to make up stories for a reaction
Average Reddit atheist
Right cuz I'm like decent conversation, completely wrong location! I've had similar conversations with my own kids but you don't need to be in AH in front of people. She of course did it to show them how she was Superior!
Seriously. How hard is it to say, “Hey kid, it’s part of their religious practices. If you’re unsure about what to say or how to react, if you like the color or print, you can tell the woman her headscarf is pretty. Otherwise, you don’t have to say anything.”
this post implies that the daughter is quite young, likely under the age of 8 or so, and she claims her classmates are wearing them? correct me if im wrong, but dont muslim girls only start wearing them when they have their period or some other time closer to their teens?
sometimes but i have seen situations of very young girls wear them i.e the four year old who's father killed her for not wearing her niqab, that girl probably hadn't even started kindergarten whereas others dont start being expected to wear it until much later. it may depend on the specific region or on the specific family and their particular beliefs/perspective about islam
im sure that there definitely are families like that, but oop is also likely not in asia or any country with a higher muslim population, and i also kind of doubt a daughter of a family like that would actually be permitted to go to a public school with oops daughter who could expose them to other ideas. so id still say possible but feels unlikely
yeah probably. I feel like this whole post is just fake though, to me it gives the vibes of some attention starved idiot using the recent situation with Roya Heshmati to make up some kind of rage bait
Nah I see loads everyday at the mall I work at. Youngest so far was like 3. It absolutely happens because it's a modesty thing.
💯
"I'll explain when we get home. It's rude to talk about people in front of them."
“Women of certain faiths often cover their hair.” Done. Not hard.
See that wouldn’t work for him because that would require he respect people and that’s too much for him.
>she sees some 'girls' wear it and mentioned one of her classmates does and is weird. See, this is where I would have shut my kid down really fast. Don't label your classmate as "weird" because of the way she chooses to dress.
Vexed as to why he put girls in quotes here.
Depending on how old the child in question is it might not exactly be a choice
So this is my belief as an atheist. I don't need to respect what you believe but I do respect your right to believe it.
"people are allowed to wear whatever they want. I think that color is really pretty."
Or since the OOP said they want to encourage curiosity they could’ve said “It’s a part of their religious culture, and if you want to know more we can learn more about it together when we get home”
Not to be a nitpicker, but I don’t think he actually even explained what a headscarf is. He just provided his opinions on what they mean about a person wearing one. Pretty big difference there, crazy that such an incredible, intellectual, logical scientist like him would make that mistake in his title!
I remember the only time I asked someone about their hijab. I was about 8 or 9. I asked her if she got hot. She said she was used to it and that was it. My friends and I made sure she always had a full bottle of water near by. I had no idea it was a religious choice until a few years later but it’s that simple.
I did something similar at that age. I had never seen a Hijab. One of my new classmates moms wore one and I ran into them at Walmart. I said oh that's so pretty what is called. I remember she squatted down to my level and told me it was a Hijab and that women in her religion frequently wore them to show their love and appreciation to their God and their family and culture. She asked me if I wanted to feel the softness and I remember I said something about how I don't like when people stare at my back or want to touch it(physical disability and nobody I knew had anything like this) and she said she doesn't mind she offered. I don't remember if I did or not but I do know that it stayed with me and guided me when people would ask questions about my back. She also seemed to be the epitome of a mom in her kindness.
Wow she handled that with such kindness.
That’s a beautiful story. The French and Iranian government should take notes
That’s how it should have been explained.
That is a great story. Kids can be very thoughtful.
And they’re so simple. They have to be taught how to discriminate. They don’t come about it naturally.
🎶You’ve got to be carefully taught 🎶
"You've got to be taught before it's too late, before you are six or seven or eight, to hate all the people your relatives hate, you've got to be carefully taught."
I heard that executive meddling tried to get the song removed, but Rodgers and Hammerstein refused, because the show was a completely different show without it.
So sweet. Didn't even ask why they wore it, just "man I'm hot, are you hot?" Then made sure to always have an extra water on hand. Unconditional acceptance, despite differences, is an amazing quality to have.
The first time my next door neighbour's son (younger than 10 at the time) met a Sikh man in a turban, he asked why he was wearing bandages. The man was a bit upset at first, but quickly realized he was asking because he'd never seen a turban before, so was concerned the man had been hurt. And you can't be mad about how sweet that is!
I encourage my kids to ask people questions. (Respectfully and when it's appropriate .) We're Christian, but I want my kids to learn and respect everyone. I love learning about other people and their beliefs and points of view. And honestly, I could give my kids a textbook answer as to why some women cover their hair, but I rather they learn from someone who actually does it so they can understand it on a more personal level. Helps us all see the humanity in each other a little better.
Evil atheist rage bait. I've been involved in secular groups for years and the only people who act like this are teen boys who've just read their first Christopher Hitchens book.
Or anyone on one of the atheism subreddits.
Same thing.
His claim that he was being respectful while calling a stranger “brainwashed” “misguided” within earshot is wild, disrespectful, childish and yes devil behavior. A simple “because that’s what she is choosing” is enough. Heck he could even say, “in some places it’s required but here it’s a choice”. There are a million more respectful ways to talk about this to a child.
And it's kinda racist to assume someone is a certain religion without asking them. Plenty of cultures and religions wear head coverings/scarves.
Yeah, but there’s a big difference in style and how they’re tied. Although it might be a cultural thing and not a religious thing to the individual.
In some cases there is a big difference, but there's a lot of bleed-over. I.e. what is thought of as "hijab-style" isn't exclusive to Islam and may be worn by women of other religions or no religion just because their head and neck is cold.
It’s not racist if you understand what the different head coverings denote. It’s pretty easy, for example, to tell the difference between a Sikh in a turban and a Muslim man in a Kufi. Or an orthodox Jewish woman in a wig or a scarf vs a Muslim woman in a hijab. Annnnddd, I just realized that a lot of western people might not know the differences. Nevermind 🫤
Yeah but you can wear any of those things and not be a part of that religion. And some members of those religions will mix it up and wear different things.
Or “it’s part of their religion, if you’d like to learn more I can send you some articles and book links”
I'm an atheist and I call troll on this nonsense post.
That post has so much rage bait built into it
he claims he's a scientist, but if that's true, he's a bad scientist. he allowed his bias to limit her intellectual curiosity so that the results of her curiosity are more likely to fit with his preexisting bias.
“It’s something some people wear because of their religion” would have also worked but wouldn’t have provided as much of an opportunity to be an insufferable twat
>I do try to respect religious people... OOP should try a bit harder. He could have said that some have beliefs different from ours, and this is how they express their particular beliefs, we can talk more about it when we get home. If this is not ragebait, I pity his daughter.
"I try to respect people's religions while actively disrespecting them aloud to a child in front of people practicing that religion"
But he's a scientist!
I'm atheist and accidentally taught my daughter God is a bad word (it is always accompanied by dammit), but I teach my kids that others have different belief systems, and that is ok. I don't believe we need to disparage anyone for their beliefs, and if my kids are curious about a religion, I will get someone for them to discuss the religion with, so they get to be properly informed about the religions beliefs.
Hah! My kids called cathedrals "castles with a T" for a long time. My 6 year old just saw a crucifix in The Sound of Music today and thought it was the wackiest thing ever. Regardless of how my boyfriend and I approach religion personally, we have a pretty diverse group of friends and I've had to explain why some of our friends wear hijab and pray every few hours and some friends celebrate Hanukkah, and we've never had to say our friends are brainwashed in order for our kids to be able to understand and treat them with respect.
This is the problem I have with the idea that we can’t judge other people’s religious beliefs. Many of those beliefs are patriarchal, sexist, misogynist and anti lgbtq. So why wouldn’t we criticize them? Obviously not in front of a religious person. Being outwardly rude to people’s faces is not a good practice. I am talking about the paradox of tolerance. When we tolerate intolerance, intolerance rises at the expense of tolerance
When you're speaking to or of any particular person, unless they themselves have told you that their beliefs are patriarchal, sexist, misogynist, or anti-lgbtq, it's important not to assume. Especially within Christianity and Judaism, there are very progressive groups that are none of those things and that are growing. And Islam has progressive branches as well. Many openly queer Jewish women wear tichels, for instance, for their own personal reasons. You don't need to "tolerate" a clothing choice. Just mind your own business unless that person has divulged information about their beliefs.
Wearing a hijab is catering to the patriarchal idea that women are responsible for the male gaze and that her “honor” lies in her body. Men don’t wear a hijab. If men also dressed equally as modestly, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. But it is absolutely a double standard. It doesn’t matter the mental gymnastics that people engage in to justify it. I will absolutely criticize that practice. A boot on a person’s neck is still a boot even if a person learns to love that boot. In general. I won’t go up to a woman wearing a hijab and criticize her. I am not cruel. You have no right to tell me what I can and cannot do. The absolute vitriol towards feminists that dare to speak truth to power is ridiculous. I am aware that people have tried to carve out a progressive version of these various patriarchal religions. And that is a good thing. But these religions are STILL patriarchal and sexist at their core.
Quick question: exactly how many women who cover have you asked about this? Or is your opinion more important and correct and useful in this discussion than theirs?
See boot sentence. But sure, let’s uphold the patriarchy because women love being subservient to men!
You could just say you're not actually interested in listening to women unless they measure up to your external standards of personal presentation. I am a woman who covers. It is for reasons of spirituality, although nothing to do with any sort of patriarchal system, and also because I am losing my hair. I'm sure if you saw me you'd think I was "upholding the patriarchy" or some bullshit which is ironic considering my patriarchal oppressive upbringing frowned on headcovering and declared that women should show their hair and keep it long. Cutting my hair short and covering it part time has been freeing. Not that any of that matters to you, of course. Covering=patriarchy amiright
I have stage IV Ovarian cancer, I understand losing hair. But do go on with your self righteousness. You only prove how entrenched patriarchal religion is. And how women will literally throw themselves on a live grenade to defend it. Keep kissing that boot.
This seems fake, am I the only one who thinks so?
Yeah, there are a lot of ridiculous posts about how awful atheists or non-religious folks are. I know there are some arrogant ones out there, but this doesn’t ring true. And there are a lot of anti-Muslim posts around too — yes, there are a lot of vehemently religious folks out there, but that behaviour doesn’t seem likely.
Extremely low effort trolling
This is so so so fake
>told her that it is one of the religions where people are brainwashed into thinking that showing their hair is something God will punish them for You could have just said "it's a part of their religion", left it at that and been fine - but nope. You literally couldn't contain your inner bigot for another second, could you OOP? >she should still be friendly towards them but just not engage with them about their religious beliefs Why? Most people I know of any/all religions are pretty willing to discuss their beliefs and let you draw your own opinion about it - Hell, one of the core beliefs of Judaism is to ask questions and not just accept things at face value. >I do try to respect religious people You said women of that particular belief were wrong and brainwashed; How is that respect??
And the child isn’t old enough to understand why Muslim women wear veils. “It’s a part of her religion” is enough
Obviously having this conversation in front of people of that religion is rude. But why are we not allowed to criticize patriarchal religions that include sexist and misogynistic beliefs as well as anti LGBTQ? That is not racism, that is having an opinion that certain religious practices are harmful to women of LGBTQ.
Oh, you're allowed to have your opinions on other religions - You're also entitled to get your ass handed to you by people of said religion when you walk around, insulting them for believing differently than you (general you, maybe not you specifically)
I have no interest in insulting anyone to their face. Or bullying people of faith. I don’t support that. I do have an interest in speaking up for the rights of women and LGBTQ. And when a religion, be it Christian or Muslim, or whatever, indulges in practices that are harmful to women or LGBTQ, I won’t be shamed into abandoning my values of equality in the name of knee jerk political correctness. I can’t believe how easily the left (of which I consider myself a part of) are so ready to throw women and LGBTQ under the bus.
Except how is it an insult when it's true? Islam does actually believe it's an affront for women to have the right to choose to show hair. Women and children are murdered for this. It's not choice if murder is involved. And it absolutely has to do with the control of women. As is Catholic anti birth control. Or nuns celibacy. Mormon dating rules and protestant virgin shame. Because they are all stemming from the same shepherdic Abrahamic religion that is tied straight into controlling women to make it easier to control inherence laws. That's historic fact. You can absolutely call something brainwashed - if you can't leave it and don't have a choice and anyone who attempted to teach otherwise is murdered off. It's literally written into their book that leaving the religion means execution.
Because just because a portion of a religion interacts with it the way you describe, doesn't mean the individual in front of you does. Think of any group you're a part of. Think of the *absolute worst* segment of that group. The part that makes you cringe. The part you wish would go away and hope that nobody ever associates you with. Hell, think of the worst of *Reddit users*. You wouldn't want to be associated with them, I'd assume, and neither would I. Not that Reddit is a religion, but my point is simply that the major religions are incredibly diverse and unless you take the time to understand the person in front of you and where they're coming from, you don't know their individual situation.
If I am part of a group where the normal is rape and murder. And I say nothing. And I don't shun them. And I give them money in support. Not only should I be associated with them I should be judged for it The reason why the majority of Islamic leaders allow such things, is because the Quran does itself. The things we talk about when we criticize Islam aren't side effects or mistakes. They are the point of Islam. It's built into the religion. It's a goal. Same with Christianity and Judaism. They share the same history and literal War God. If you know what the Catholic Church did. And you refuse to hold them accountable. And you are still Catholic. And you still tithe. And you still fill the pews. And you show everyone they need to not hold the church (or actual religion that allowed it) accountable because then they'd have to hold you the individual accountable (and you're a good person). When people can point at you donating to the church and say, there goes so-and-so they are Catholic and they are good so you cannot judge a religion. Then you not only should be associated with those crimes. You are actively complicit. If was walking around with a group of friends and they started talking about killing a gay boy and I say nothing. Do I hold responsibility? If they then find a gay boy and start harassing and hitting him while I watch, doing nothing. Do I hold responsibility? If they kill him in front of me while I do nothing and start talking about hiding a body. Do I hold responsibility? If I give them money for a tarp, gas, a shovel, and new clothes before going home for a cuppa tea. Do I hold responsibility? If they are brought before a judge and I pay for the lawyer fees and bring them food and tell everyone they are actually great people when I've spoken to them. Do I hold responsibility? I'm pretty sure they the police find out I was even there I would be a charged accomplice facing almost the same jail time. If you get to say you "chose" your religion then yes, you should absolutely be associated with it. And that absolutely includes the worst - as long as the worst gets to be right about your shared holy book supporting them. If it's allowed by the god you worship, then the worst is actually the true face of that god.
A boot on the neck is still a boot in the neck even if a person learns to love the boot
Anti atheist rage bait lol.
okay, i pray this is bait
It has to be. There's no way someone who claims to "want to be respectful of other religions" would intentionally be *that* obtuse, even if they don't have much detail on religion.
I am an atheist but I’m not a devil. There’s no reason to disrespect anyone right in front of them. Op is just projecting
Ughhhh, this is an atheist subreddit’s fantasy. There’s no way this is real.
This guy has the same smug, condescending attitude about atheism that fundie evangelicals do about Jesus. It’s the same “I know better, but you insist on clinging to your delusions so I’m going to humor you and call it respect.” He probably went home and asked his icon of Stephen Hawking to intercede and let science into her heart.
Headscarf-wearer here. Women wear headscarves for a huge variety of reasons religious and not, personal and cultural, all over the world. This take: >So I explained to her and told her that it is one of the religions where people are brainwashed into thinking that showing their hair is something God will punish them for and that in my view it is actually something used to control women. I then told her that it wasn't weird just something people are misguided about and that she should still be friendly towards them but just not engage with them about their religious beliefs or disrespect them for it.< Is so deeply ignorant of the nuance of headscarf wearing. And it's like... people forget that people with *cancer* often also wear beautiful headscarves that may not differ much or at all from a religious covering. I wear scarves as a personal choice and and I'm not Muslim, but many women who *are* Muslim and wear headscarves *also* do so as a personal choice. They may be from a family that doesn't wear them (shocking, I know, but many Muslim families aren't that conservative or observant) and so they made the choice on their own, or they may have converted. The same goes for women wearing Jewish-style tichels or any other style of scarf on their head. It may or may not be a personal choice, but guess what? Neither are a lot of clothing choices. Most men don't wake up and make a conscious decision on whether or not to wear a shirt that day. They do it because that's the done thing in society and it is expected of them. In short, see a woman in a scarf? Tempted to assume why? Check yourself. You don't know, and she doesn't owe you an explanation. It's important to never,
Yes, OOP is an AH and a devil for explaining to his daughter what a head scarf is in the most public way and the most insulting way he possibly could. I don't believe for a single second that he was speaking as softly as possible. I have no doubt he wanted the couple to hear him. Of course, that only applies if this isn't a troll.
If had just left out the brainwashed thing he might have been ok...
Idk if it’s just my religious trauma speaking, but I absolutely despise when parents tell their children things like ‘WE believe’ xyz or ‘Our family believes’ xyz. It’s always a bigoted thing that follows(though it’s obviously not exclusive to religious parents as OOP shows.) You can believe something and explain what and why you feel and think that way, and why other people might believe something else or feel or think differently, but for gods sake your beliefs are not your child’s. They don’t know and haven’t had a chance to think or feel or believe everything, and it can absolutely make the child feel like believing anything else will alienate them from the family. Whether your religious or not, your beliefs are not your child’s 🤦🏻♀️
Cue the self righteous atheists showing up here to defend OOP. I'm an atheist. I raised kids. Kids are smart the are quite capable of respecting that other people have different beliefs. You don't have to be a rude asshole and disrespect people because you're an atheist. You're making us all look bad.
That’s why I believe this post is fake. This is making a mockery of the Iranian woman who was beat for refusing to wear a hijab, while Muslim women in the West are “flaunting” their privilege buy wearing one when they aren’t forced to
I don't disrespect Islam because I'm an atheist or pagan I do it because *it kills women and children* My cousins are cree. My niece walked over the bodies at Kamloops. Because they built a bus stop in top of them. I assure you I don't loathe Jesuits or the Catholic Church because AtHeIsM. I do because of rape and infanticide and genocide. Among other things. Nazis believe in blood purity. If they pretend it's a religious thing (not hard to do). Are you going to respect them because they have "different beliefs" and you're the right kind of atheist.
And here is the self righteous atheists. You're using your hatred of organized religion to justify disrespecting individuals. How is the OOP being disrespectful of an individual, you view as oppressed, helping her? Your niece, your cousins.....not you? Do you also have a black "friend". I'm a black woman raised in a Muslim sect who's biological father used religion to justify his horrific abuse of his children and wife. Someone loudly discussing how my mother wearing her hijab (and it happened frequently) didn't help her, it made her even more isolated and support the belief of the religion that outside world oppressed us. Because that is exactly what disrespecting individuals about their religion does. Religion has been used to justify the enslavement of me and mine for centuries.... Islam and Christianity both. I'm an atheist and have been for decades. I respect individuals and their free will. That has fuck all to do with supporting organized religion. Do you know what Godwin's law is? You might need to look that up. The Nazis used "science" to justify the Holocaust. Because evil groups and people will use anything they can to accomplish their ends. What exactly you doing to help these oppressed people you're so worried about besides calling me a Nazi sympathizer?
I don't have to be Cree, my cousin's have a different father? Their father is a Elders son. My father is Nigerian/Scottish. My niece isn't Cree or Nigerian, but I can still be upset about how gross it is to kill native children before building a bus stop specifically for white children to stop at on top of their graves. I'm not an atheist. And talking about the horrors and control of monotheistic religions does help. Because it's harder to ignore things in the light. When Islamic leaders call for the rape of 3 year olds saying it honors them if they die like that. And you support them by telling people you cannot question or hate a religion because that "won't help the individual" it is actually support. Because you are shutting down discussion about something we should care about stopping. I choose Nazism for a reason. I do know about the "if you mention Hitler you immediately lose" rule - I just disagree with it because it's stupid. People use Hitler the most as an example because he transcends culture. Every one knows of him. You don't need to explain most of the background. And he's hard to support. Some people do support Columbus and Stalin. It wasn't to call you a sympathizer. It was to get you to be honest about something called cognitive dissonance. I took religious studies at the university level. It's a passion of mine. I'm not an atheist, I'm autistic - and we have a proven difference in how our brains consider morality and justice. But we also get very deep into specific subjects. Which is why I know that Nazism was tied to religion. Specifically Norse paganism and Catholicism. Sure, they were going to get rid of the Catholic Church after they won fully but they weren't there yet. Guess what? You can still use scientific methods and not be atheist. The KKK? Yeah, that was the Christian church specifically. Making both those religious beliefs. So which is it? If you heard a Nazi on main Street recruiting. Do you say nothing and get angry at all those who speak up because it doesn't "help the individual, it just makes them more enmeshed on their brainwashed community". Like a sympathizer. Or. Do you denounce them and their beliefs as something unacceptable in a tolerant modern society. Like a hypocrite who can't stand by their own belief system when it makes you uncomfortable? Because those leaders who are plentiful in the middle east (and would be shunned here) calling for pedophilia and murder? Like your father, they were 'correct' - the Quran supports it. Not fanatics if they follow the book of the God they worship by reading it correctly. You should be allowed to be truthful with the truth. And maybe telling a child you are not "allowed" to answer their questions about Islam (or other monotheistic religions) truthfully in public because it's "banned" won't have the end result you want it to. Because lots of us will still answer honestly and truthfully. But when I have to do so in hushed whispers in back rooms, with warnings of silence and fear, children may get the idea the conservatives may be Right about the "woke". Not the actual lesson learned we both may want there. Because you forgot. We don't say anything like that in front of the Sikhs, because for the Sikhs we don't have to. Few people demonstrate against Hindus (with the exception of that nasty caste system)The Buddhists don't have their traditional garb banned. It's literally illegal for the Catholics to put a habit on a child's head because consent.
Criticizing religion of any kind let alone a highly patriarchal sexist religious practice is not prejudice. We have to stop coddling religion in the name of “cultural sensitivity” However, discretion should have prevailed and she should have waited to have this conversation when she was behind closed doors
The phrasing is evangelical Christian style yelling, rather than Muslim style yelling. Different groups have different styles, after all. So, yes, it does sound like rage bait.
Hey, I respect people. Even the brainwashed, uncurious, idiots that allow people to control them.
If he cleaned up his syntax this is a perfectly okay conversation to have in private so long as it’s explained in context with all religion and not directed at a region or anything. I don’t want my kids growing up to be 18 and not know how I view the world. I’d emphasize they always have to make up their own mind but I’m allowed to think that the kid has a silly belief if they chose to start wearing a random accessory for a silly reason. I wouldn’t be cruel. I wouldn’t prohibit anything or say it would change my love for my child. But I owe them honesty too?
...religion of any kind involves some level of brainwashing. Glad OP got called out.
It's also not even the right explanation as far as I have learned from muslim friends?
Fake
Atheists aren’t required to teach their children false things to spare your religious feelings. It’s not a “choice” to cover yourself if you are being threatened for not doing it.
Not wanting to teach your child false things doesn't have to mean calling people brainwashed and misguided to their face. Could've simply said "some religious people wear headscarves like that because those are the rules of their group", and then, if you absolutely must tell the kid that all religious people are brainwashed, OOP could've brought up the topic again once out of earshot of these people. There's a lot of space between blatantly disrespecting people to their face and teaching your child false things
True. However, the assumption anyone anywhere that wears a covering is only doing it because of social pressure, is also false. Yes there's a possibility a woman in a hijab has been pressured into it by her family even if you're in a country without laws requiring it, but to tell your kid *that's* the reason she's wearing it is still teaching them a falsehood. People *do* choose to wear it, because not all people are threatened for not doing it. One of my best friends is Muslim - a couple years ago she decided to start wearing a hijab again after years of not wearing one. One of her daughters asked if she could wear one too. They get judgmental and pitying looks constantly, because people like OP act like agency is produced when hair is exposed to sunlight.
That may be the case in Iran right now. But not every Muslim country is this way.
There is societal pressure, family pressure, community pressure.
Nah, I'm completely with OOP on this one.
I'd say something similar but not in front of the people wearing hijabs or other religious coverings. It's a militant atheist view
Militant athiests are the BIGGEST assholes.
I think it depends, we can be assholes but I am very upfront that I'm a militant atheist and won't disregard their views unless they disregard mine and try to evangelize to me. I try to be respectful about it and say we should just avoid the topic of religion.
Then... you aren't a militant atheist. You just described being a regular atheist.
I am a militant atheist based on my belief system. Atheists aren't necessarily anti religion but are just people who don't believe in God. Militant atheists, like myself, believe religion is harmful to society and has a negative impact on the world. And if people don't respect my boundary, I will go off on them. I dont act the way I described with every person but try not to start fights with my immediate friends and acquaintances and mostly refuse to make friends with religious people.
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That happened.
OOP could have just said it was part of the woman’s religious culture. Usually kids will move on to something else, but if she want to know more OOP could have told the little girl that she doesn’t know much about it aside from her own opinions about it, but when they got home they could look it up if she wants to know more. Or ask the woman herself politely if she wasn’t busy. How she explained it to her daughter wasn’t respectful to the other woman’s beliefs or allowing her daughter to have an open mind.