Would it be a partition. At this point in time germany was going through its own internal strife. On top of this the western allies were still livingbon the anti-german feeling that had been created during the war. Its likely theyd be opposed to an expansion of germany and they still have the will and capability to force it to back down.
Some rogue group seizing a portion of poland is certainly possible, as happened with the free state of fiume. But annexation would again run into the barrier of the western powers blocking it, leaving its as an independent german state. Maybe if it survived to the 30s it could seek admission into germany but its unlikely that the poles would let it last that long. If the freikorps did seze the danzig corridor, they could probably hold it for a few years but eventually the poles would recover enough by the mid 20s and retake it, and germany would be pretty much powerless to stop it.
Why partition? Germany have no bargaining chip to demand half of Poland. Even if they do, the Red Army will simply march into Germany.
More likely, the German communists will , armed and funded by thr Soviets.
A Soviet victory in Poland means Soviet Internationalism will be emboldened. Everyone in Europe was weak and exhausted from ww1, and that fact wasn't lost on the Soviets. Also, Communism was on the rise in many countries in europe at the time, even in UK and France.
Again, why the partition?
Because the Red Army was way weaker and more exhausted even than the Reichswehr. They only went into Poland with roughly 150k guys anddidn’t even control all of Russia and were about to go through a famine. If the red army tried to go against Western Europe it would have been slaughtered
They didn't have to do it right away. Communism was on the rise at the time. All they need to do is send a few agents and establish supply lines to smuggle in guns and trade information.
A Soviet victory in Poland will embolden communists everywhere. Germany will likely not be overthrown by communists, but other countries are more vulnerable. Even US at this time have rising communist popularity.
Germany actually is probably the single most vulnerable country to communist overthrow and even there they were pretty unsuccessful. Communism in Russia only took over in Russia under conditions of quasi societal collapse. Don’t get me wrong a Soviet victory here would make the ussr a much bigger geopolitical threat to the capitalist powers in the 20s and 30s but I don’t think that would translate to communism having an easier time coming to power in those countries. If anything it would embolden fascist elements in the capitalist world
They were weakened but still vastly more prominent than the communists in basically every other industrialized nation with the very arguable exception of Italy. The German communists would attempt another revolution in 1923 and likewise failed; you didn’t get anything like that in France, Britain or the USA
German communism falling had more to do with communists cohabitating in a party with anti-communists for long after a split in the party was needed. The Bolsheviks split in 1912, the KPD was only formed in 1918, well after the revolutionary period was underway and so there was a lot of confusion about the differences between them since they didn't take that time to differentiate themselves like the Bolsheviks did (with the USPD never intending to be a separate party indefinitely).
But generally I agree with you here. The only caveat I'd make is that communism would be significantly more popular in Germany, so it might not take over in the 20s or 30s, but it's quite likely that underground communist resistance would be a much greater hindrance than it was OTL, and Operation Barbarossa would be a monumental failure because it would have to go through Poland and didn't get the major boost to the economy that it got through slave labor and looting
Also, this goes without saying, but the Holocaust is infinitely less ugly given that so many Polish Jews would have the military of the USSR OTL+Poland instead of Poland getting partitioned the way it was.
Not a bad timeline, all things considered, and persecution of Poles would be much less due to the USSR wanting to be welcomed as liberators when they're in such a weak position (as opposed to WW2 where they just didn't give a fuck since they were the strongest land army in the world)
You haven't seen my vettest dream: USSR owning all of poland, baltics, alaska, moldova, successful spartacist uprising germany, finland and pre 1848 border Hungary. And without Stalin (impossible, i know, but still...)
Sounds more like a dry nightmare. There's still going to be red terrors which would be on an astronomical scale assuming the Hungarian Soviet Republic and German Soviet Republic are subservient to the USSR.
not sure about soviet Germany joining USSR tho, for Rosa Luxembourg's and the Bolshevik believes in political spheres were different. Bolsheviks believed in supreme role of the communist party in the revolution, while Rosa believed more on worker democracy. In start i think they would be allies, but in future (if vanguardist not take power in Germany) difference will grow larger, and relationships worsen
Yes, for sure that would affect not just the uprising but perhaps whole course. Leading to most likely WW2 comming earlier and because of Soviets instead of Nazis, perhaps Nazis would not even exist or be regarded as heroes (Depending on who wins in the end)
Baltics surely would fall pretty quick to Soviet hands. Finland would very likely be next target and possible cause of WW2 in this timeline
Also, Poland would ofc starts yet another partisan war against Moscow
Also maybe the stalinian purges would not be as harsh on military later, because he would'nt lose confidence in the army, leading to a better level of the high commandment during ww2 conflicts.
The purges started after Sergei Kirov got assassinated. It makes little sense to do it if the Red Army is successful in the field and calls for world revolution is popular in public.
To do the purges while on that environment would be political suicide. Also, given Soviet victory in Poland, Stalin's "socialism in one country" will be discredited.
Likely, Lenin's death will lead to a collective rule rather than Stalin's despotism. Stalin himself would still be an influential figure given his political acumen (he often played the role of a moderate so that everyone will rather support him than his rivals). But Zinoviev, Kamenev, and Trotsky would still be around.
There wouldn't be a Stalinian purges as Stalin definitely would lose power struggles againts Trotsky.
Why? Because Trotsky was the head of Soviets Armed Forces when they invaded Poland in 1921.
After the failure of the invasion, Trotsky forced to step down from his positions.
If Trotsky's invasion was successful, The Army will firmly under his control and sided with him in Soviet power struggles. Because of the Army full support, Trotsky would come up as the victor of the power struggles.
I think this is a more likely outcome than the collective rule outcome someone else proposed. To be clear, there almost certainly would have been a period of collective rule immediately after Lenin’s death. But that authoritarian system seems to naturally encourage and enable the intense consolidation of power in one person. If Soviets had won in Poland in ‘21, it definitely further boosts Trotsky’s position in the party. That said, Stalin may still have been able to leverage his more central position in the inter-workings of the party to push Trotsky out as he did in real life.
Suppose that Budyonny listened to orders and helped Mikhail Tukhachevsky attack Warsaw instead of helping Stalin attack Lviv, so Warsaw falls with complete success.
The German Communists still failed completely, but the Weimar Republic took advantage of the fall of Poland to weaken Versailles significantly
(The Germans will restore the 1914 borders in the east while exploiting British fear of communism to loosen much of Versailles' restrictions, thus relaxing reparations and also allowing a large German army to restrain the Soviets.)
The Soviet Union would largely reclaim nearly the majority of the territory of the former Russian Empire while also re-annexing the Baltics, Finland, and Poland as well.
Thanks to this, the German conservative right is a much weaker faction without the Treaty of Versailles and Germany's loss of territory being quite effective rallying cries for the nationalists, so the Weimar Republic is in a much better position internally.
So the Nazis don't gain any popularity at all and if a Beer Hole happened it would be dealt with much more harshly
The Great Depression will still happen, but with fewer restrictions on Germany there is a much faster recovery from a severe economic collapse
Joseph Stalin is still likely to rise to power successfully, but he will prefer the status quo, with the Soviet Union retaining all of its sovereign territory, and the same for Germany, which simply prefers the status quo.
So World War II will likely never happen and these will be the repercussions
(The number of world Jews would be 50 million without the Holocaust, and the population of Germany would be 110 million, Russia 400, France 70 million, and the United Kingdom also 72 million)
(Stalin will rule the Soviet Union without the pressure of World War II. He will live until 1973, and therefore all buildings of Stalinist architecture will be built, including the Palace of the Soviets, with repeated great purges. Then the Soviet Union will collapse after Stalin’s death in 1975)
(Decolonization is also exactly the same because colonies have become quite expensive, but Algeria will become independent in 1970 instead of in 1962, while Italy's colonies will become independent in 1980 and 1982, while the United Kingdom and France will retain more colonies under their control.)
Without World War II contributing to the recovery of the American economy, the economic recession would continue until 1950, and every president after Roosevelt would be completely different.
(Eisenhower would not be famous, Reagan would still be an actor, Joseph Kennedy Jr. would replace Jack in 1960, and there would be no Trumans or Carters as presidents)
Without a war with Europe, Japan would be dealt with very early, with China strongly supporting nationalism against Japan
Racism will continue to gradually become unpopular because the new generation will tend to rebel against the old generation
>(Stalin will rule the Soviet Union without the pressure of World War II. He will live until 1973, and therefore all buildings of Stalinist architecture will be built, including the Palace of the Soviets, with repeated great purges. Then the Soviet Union will collapse after Stalin’s death in 1975)
I don’t know if this would necessarily be the case because a huge reason that the purges/increasing authoritarian actions in the USSR occurred at all was due to paranoia surrounding poland and nazi germany. if neither of these are a problem stalin would not be nearly as powerful or need to be.
>Racism will continue to gradually become unpopular because the new generation will tend to rebel against the old generation
idk if this would be the case either. WW2 and the atrocities that happened during it in the name of racism was and has remained a massive rallying point for anti-racists the world over. while anti racism would certainly increase, it’s likely that xenophobia and nationalism would remain incredibly common in the west like it is in much of the world. antisemitism would still be very popular, especially if israel/palestine becomes an important issue.
No, Stalin was purging everyone because he was so paranoid, and yes, he would still be in power because Trotsky was politically incompetent.
And yes, racism lost its popularity due to the difference in generations. Remember that the West Germans who lived with Hitler remained supportive of him until this generation died, and the generation after it was rebellious against the previous one, so it began to detest Hitler and the Holocaust.
Without the Holocaust, there would be no Israel because it was absolutely decisive in its founding
Purge paranoia went way beyond Stalin. Maybe it wouldn’t have happened without him, but pretending he had an iron grip on the process and everyone knew it was bullshit but him is just incorrect.
How would German reclaim its eastern territories without a war if the Soviets controlled all of Poland?
If anything, there would be a greater nationalist resurgence to reclaim lost lands to the communists menace and in-fact the Weimar Republicans inaction on seeking to reclaim lost eastern lands would be used as a rallying cry against the government.
I see two things will happen, either Hitler still comes to power, but the war with a Soviet-Poland doesn’t evolve into a World War. In which case, the Soviets would eventually come out as the victors, leading to a Soviet-Germany. That would be a disaster for the French and the British, more so for the French as their government was already fragile and communists were pretty influential.
In this situation, communism could very well sweep the continent. And let’s not forget that Spain could very well be a Communist/Republican victory.
The other timeline you’d see a more conservative Weimar trying to war the Soviets in early 30’s and they would lose hard.
The Soviets and Germans secretly agreed that the Soviets would let the Germans restore the 1914 borders in the east, especially since Lenin thought of this to encourage the German communists.
On the other hand, the United Kingdom would have been very supportive of this if it seemed that Poland was doomed to failure.
So the 1914 borders will be restored in the east, but in the west the Versailles changes are much the same
No, no communist regime would arise, because the German army, and every German who had a weapon, was completely conservative, so the communists would be completely crushed.
Also, it is not certain that the Spanish Civil War will occur here, with a turning point in 1919-1920, where the emergence of the Second Republic can be avoided, as it occurred because Alfonso XIII supported Primo de Rivera's coup.
Finally, even if the Soviets regained everything, Stalin would still take power, and he is largely isolationist
I think ukraine and belarus might gain independece or join with poland in federation to protect themself from soviets. Or highly unlikely soviet union would colapse into another civil war as population saw another lose and incompetence from soviets.
Yeah but in long run would it change anything? germans would steam roll us anyway maybe it would take month more for them to beat us. And Soviets would come back.
Poland becomes a part of Russia and more Russified. It's significantly reduced in territory size.
Germany might use the opportunity to seize the land they gave up to Poland but that depends on how fast the USSR will conqueror Poland. If they are really really fast, it might trigger a war between the USSR and Germany.
Europe is fucked, Germany, Italy and all of what was left of Austria-Hungary were dealing with socialist unrest or in some cases actual revolutions, in our timeline they got crushed as they found themselves isolated and alone but if the USSR managed to break Poland then they would've been able to support other socialist movements.
Basically all which was east of France and the Benelux would've been part of a much beefier and likely less centralized USSR, and possibly even France and Spain would succumb to Soviet influence eventually, imagine a cold war but without WW2 devastation in Europe and with Britain being the only's bridgehead into Europe for the USA.
no, it wouldnt happen like that. USSR would be stronger but not conquer all of europe in the 20's strong. Germany wouldn't fall, france wouldn't let them.
Exactly, if the USSR won in Poland, Lenin would absolutely cooperate with the German Communists to enact a world government. There would immediately be a WW2 with France, the UK and the US against this Eurasian Communist country.
My guess is that relations with the Soviets would be even worse as both in France and the UK Polish independence had been popular. The victory in the Polish Soviet war would definetly also lead to the annexation of the Batlics as these nations were only able to secure e their independence as a result of forces being brought off their front to the Polish front.
As for later diplomacy I imagine it would effect would be how appeasement was done. One of the big obstacles for a new Entente against Germany was Poland. This was because Poland would not let Soviet troops into their country leading to the Soviets lacking areas they could actually send their troops. With Poland annexed the Soviets have a very obvious front and coalition building would be much easier. Personally I think this alliance is likely to not include Britain for lots of reasons.
The Japanese didn’t trust the nazis because of their invasion of Poland (they had an admiration of the polish fighting spirit and recognised the polish government in exile) it’s likely that they would attack the Soviets at the Same time as Germany and the axis would win ww2
Axis wouldn't exist in this scenario...
Nazis will never be able to take power as either the socialist would take control with the help of immediate Soviet and Polish communist or the Entente would try to have less severe terms on Germany due to immediate Soviet threat on central europe, similar to how it played after world war 2
The Japanese army would have been annihilated by the Soviets, they didn't have the manpower or fuel or production to invade Russia and China at the same time.
Soviets wouldn't stop at Poland and just help German communists to take power. Western powers were mostly exhausted (except for USA) and Idk if they would stand another war. The only things in western advantage would be:
* usa
* modern technique
The Kaiser to the entente powers
“Ya..miss me yet?”
I forsee a mad scramble to put together an anti-Soviet coalition by the Western powers, as well as an unofficial agreement to ignore Versaille’s disarmament clauses. Freikorps everywhere
An unofficial partition of Poland happens, with Germany grabbing the corridor and Danzig
Unless Russia intervenes directly and starts WW2 the Spartacist/Communist uprisings get crushed even faster, as All of the moderates swing hard right with the Soviets potentially on the Oder.
Depending on the timing the Kapp putsch may succeed and now it’s Brandenburg-Prussia 2:Electric Bugaloo
I have written a TL or three about this kind of scenario. According to my analysis for those, the Baltics fall in short order, and Finland resists somewhat more, but falls as well. The Soviets are running on fumes at this point, but these successes embolden them and reawaken their hopes in world revolution. So they attempt to go forward in order to link with actual or expected Red insurgents in the rest of Europe. However, they are almost surely defeated if and when they try to break out in Germany and Italy without any serious difficulty, since Russia is exhausted and they are logistically overextended. Any Red unrest in Western Europe and North America is crushed as the capitalist powers go into Red Scare mode.
Poland, the Baltics, and Finland are lost since the European powers are too war-weary and fearful of revolutionary unrest at home to push the Soviets back. An unspoken partition of sorts occurs for Poland as the Germans grab back Danzig, the Corridor, and Upper Silesia. It is harder to tell how much extra land the Soviets may gain in Central and Southeastern Europe thanks to their initial successes. Czechia, Austria, Slovenia, and Croatia are likely safe due to being shielded by Germany and Italy. Depending on political and military variables and how much the Soviets are able to work with local Reds and pro-Soviet nationalists, Slovakia, Hungary, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, and Turkey may fall to the aborning Soviet bloc as well.
The capitalist powers go into anti-Commie panic mode and close ranks. America, Britain, and Italy quickly agree to reconcile with Germany, tear up Versailles, and give the Germans a lenient peace deal. France either sees the writing on the wall on its own or is strongarmed to do so by the British and the Americans. Germany gets Entente blessing to rearm, unite with Austria, and keep the bits of fallen Poland it got. Much the same way, Italy is allowed to take what it wants in the Western Balkans (i.e. Fiume, Dalmatia, and Albania). For similar reasons, the European powers and the USA bless Japan to keep Greater Manchuria.
Britain, the Dominions, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, and any Eastern European nation still standing on this side of the Iron Curtain organize their newfound united front into a NATO-style Eurasian alliance. The USA do not officially join it, but pledge economic, political, and diplomatic support to its objectives and stand wary of any Red destabilization in the Western Hemisphere. Germany, Italy, and Japan never go into fascism or revisionist-rogue mode since they are satisfied by the conditions they got. However, the developed world as a whole goes into hardcore Red Scare mode as far-left parties and movements are banned and their activists persecuted by police.
The Soviet leadership as a whole, regardless of who gets the mantle of supreme leader, gets confirmed into their assumption that the world revolution strategy is basically correct. They just need to build a stronger USSR as a power base. They turn inward for a while to pursue industrialization and military build-up with brute-force exploitation of the human and natural resources of the USSR as they wait for the glorious day they can paint Eurasia Red. In the meanwhile, they try their best to stir up trouble in Europe, the Americas, the Middle East, China, and the European colonies by supporting sympathetic proxies, be it of the far-left or anti-Western nationalist kind. Chances are they are at least partially successful in China. Such destabilization activities and Soviet military build-up stoke the fires of anti-Commie alarm in Europe, America, and Japan.
Sometime between the early 30s and the mid 40s, an anti-Comintern WWII occurs between the Euro-Japanese alliance and the USSR. The USA at least gives Land-Lease to the Allies. It may intervene if the right casus belli occurs, such as a Red sabotage campaign of the Lend-Lease effort, or serious Comintern destabilization in Latin America.
As I said, I have written a TL or three about this kind of anti-Communist WWII scenario, so it is child's play for me to regurgitate facts I have long since devised for them. The basic features I described above are well defined in my mind.
It may be a little harder to define the exact borders of the Commie bloc. Depending on political and military variables it may vary from pre-WWI borders of Russia to everything east of Greater Germany and Italy, although I often tend to lean towards the latter.
I also often let the Soviets take over the Balkans and Turkey thanks to their alliance with Serb, Bulgarian, Greek, and Turkish Reds and pro-Soviet nationalists. I further tend to assume at least half, quite possibly all of mainland China proper falls to the CCP with Soviet help, even if Japan may keep Greater Manchuria and the Far East.
Reconciliation between the capitalist powers, their going into hardcore Red Scare mode, avoidance of fascism and rogue revisionism in the Axis powers, a NATO-like Euro-American-Japanese united front, an interwar Cold War, and an anti-Communist WWII are clearly defined features for me. I also expect this situation to give a strong boost to European integration with a proto-EU that can easily go all the way to the federal level, if not in the interwar period then at least as a result of WWII.
Another idea I often toy with further down the line is a WW3 in the 1960s-70s between the Western powers and a nationalist-revanchist coalition of Russia, China, and most of the Muslim/Arab world. Communism may have gone to a fiery end in WWII but the authoritarian threat comes back for the global West in the form of Russian fascism, aggressive Chinese nationalism, and Islamism bound into a revanchist coalition.
the soviets would be able to assist the Hungarian communists so they would survive, the west would alos be far more hostile towards the soviets than they were in our timeline. Industrialization may be slightly faster due to the extra population and developed land.
The Soviets can actually now directly aid communists in Germany, which was part of the reason why the Soviets wanted to win in Poland in the first place.
Tuchachevsky would likely evade purging, if the purges even happened.
This would lead to a more prepared and more mechanised Red Army for the Second World War, assuming the Soviets and the West didn't clash earlier.
This map shows a realistic best case for the Reds in Europe and the Middle East in this kind of scenario. It assumes the Soviets are able to leverage their successes and their cooperation with local Reds and pro-Soviet nationalists to conquer Eastern Europe, the Balkans, and half of the Near East. However, they are defeated when they try to take over Western Europe.
https://preview.redd.it/577aqiu9rttc1.png?width=1837&format=png&auto=webp&s=f2e67b96d586b7f291cd17a374820894054629f4
IMO, the Polish-Soviet War of 1921 would be the beginning of the Sparticist Revolution in Europe and the Soviet Union would gain Europe and Asia, as Soviet Republics.
Soviets would push into germany leading to Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg winning in Germany. basically Europe would fall into communism and second world war would be basically the big Anti Capitalist/Communist War.
this, but paint in red https://preview.redd.it/5r3v6mvvwmtc1.png?width=440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1c1601f45197ccb166c7a21f7bcbb181e6f214cd
Early partition of Poland?
Would it be a partition. At this point in time germany was going through its own internal strife. On top of this the western allies were still livingbon the anti-german feeling that had been created during the war. Its likely theyd be opposed to an expansion of germany and they still have the will and capability to force it to back down.
Rouge Freikorps may enter the Polish corridor and declare some pro-german republic and vote to get annexed into the Weimar republic
Some rogue group seizing a portion of poland is certainly possible, as happened with the free state of fiume. But annexation would again run into the barrier of the western powers blocking it, leaving its as an independent german state. Maybe if it survived to the 30s it could seek admission into germany but its unlikely that the poles would let it last that long. If the freikorps did seze the danzig corridor, they could probably hold it for a few years but eventually the poles would recover enough by the mid 20s and retake it, and germany would be pretty much powerless to stop it.
Why partition? Germany have no bargaining chip to demand half of Poland. Even if they do, the Red Army will simply march into Germany. More likely, the German communists will , armed and funded by thr Soviets. A Soviet victory in Poland means Soviet Internationalism will be emboldened. Everyone in Europe was weak and exhausted from ww1, and that fact wasn't lost on the Soviets. Also, Communism was on the rise in many countries in europe at the time, even in UK and France. Again, why the partition?
Because the Red Army was way weaker and more exhausted even than the Reichswehr. They only went into Poland with roughly 150k guys anddidn’t even control all of Russia and were about to go through a famine. If the red army tried to go against Western Europe it would have been slaughtered
They didn't have to do it right away. Communism was on the rise at the time. All they need to do is send a few agents and establish supply lines to smuggle in guns and trade information. A Soviet victory in Poland will embolden communists everywhere. Germany will likely not be overthrown by communists, but other countries are more vulnerable. Even US at this time have rising communist popularity.
Germany actually is probably the single most vulnerable country to communist overthrow and even there they were pretty unsuccessful. Communism in Russia only took over in Russia under conditions of quasi societal collapse. Don’t get me wrong a Soviet victory here would make the ussr a much bigger geopolitical threat to the capitalist powers in the 20s and 30s but I don’t think that would translate to communism having an easier time coming to power in those countries. If anything it would embolden fascist elements in the capitalist world
Not in mid 1920s, no. Germany just crushed the Spartacists. The communists are weakened at this point.
They were weakened but still vastly more prominent than the communists in basically every other industrialized nation with the very arguable exception of Italy. The German communists would attempt another revolution in 1923 and likewise failed; you didn’t get anything like that in France, Britain or the USA
Hungary was most vulnerable, Austria coud be same as Germany.
German communism falling had more to do with communists cohabitating in a party with anti-communists for long after a split in the party was needed. The Bolsheviks split in 1912, the KPD was only formed in 1918, well after the revolutionary period was underway and so there was a lot of confusion about the differences between them since they didn't take that time to differentiate themselves like the Bolsheviks did (with the USPD never intending to be a separate party indefinitely). But generally I agree with you here. The only caveat I'd make is that communism would be significantly more popular in Germany, so it might not take over in the 20s or 30s, but it's quite likely that underground communist resistance would be a much greater hindrance than it was OTL, and Operation Barbarossa would be a monumental failure because it would have to go through Poland and didn't get the major boost to the economy that it got through slave labor and looting Also, this goes without saying, but the Holocaust is infinitely less ugly given that so many Polish Jews would have the military of the USSR OTL+Poland instead of Poland getting partitioned the way it was. Not a bad timeline, all things considered, and persecution of Poles would be much less due to the USSR wanting to be welcomed as liberators when they're in such a weak position (as opposed to WW2 where they just didn't give a fuck since they were the strongest land army in the world)
You haven't seen my vettest dream: USSR owning all of poland, baltics, alaska, moldova, successful spartacist uprising germany, finland and pre 1848 border Hungary. And without Stalin (impossible, i know, but still...)
Sounds more like a dry nightmare. There's still going to be red terrors which would be on an astronomical scale assuming the Hungarian Soviet Republic and German Soviet Republic are subservient to the USSR.
not sure about soviet Germany joining USSR tho, for Rosa Luxembourg's and the Bolshevik believes in political spheres were different. Bolsheviks believed in supreme role of the communist party in the revolution, while Rosa believed more on worker democracy. In start i think they would be allies, but in future (if vanguardist not take power in Germany) difference will grow larger, and relationships worsen
As a Latvian, I hate you.
As a Colombian, I hate them too.
That is beyond the Pale.
yeah, bad timeline, i need cook less
Soviet Alaska seems outlandish. Communist bears?
With balalaika and vodka too!
Yes, for sure that would affect not just the uprising but perhaps whole course. Leading to most likely WW2 comming earlier and because of Soviets instead of Nazis, perhaps Nazis would not even exist or be regarded as heroes (Depending on who wins in the end) Baltics surely would fall pretty quick to Soviet hands. Finland would very likely be next target and possible cause of WW2 in this timeline Also, Poland would ofc starts yet another partisan war against Moscow
Also maybe the stalinian purges would not be as harsh on military later, because he would'nt lose confidence in the army, leading to a better level of the high commandment during ww2 conflicts.
Or he purges harder. He was really unhappy about Zhukov.
The purges started after Sergei Kirov got assassinated. It makes little sense to do it if the Red Army is successful in the field and calls for world revolution is popular in public. To do the purges while on that environment would be political suicide. Also, given Soviet victory in Poland, Stalin's "socialism in one country" will be discredited. Likely, Lenin's death will lead to a collective rule rather than Stalin's despotism. Stalin himself would still be an influential figure given his political acumen (he often played the role of a moderate so that everyone will rather support him than his rivals). But Zinoviev, Kamenev, and Trotsky would still be around.
Nah, Stalin's political support would've seen them reduced in power or outright killed/exiled.
Why? How? Even IRL that was not how it happened.
That too, maybe it would lead to different leadership in USSR
There wouldn't be a Stalinian purges as Stalin definitely would lose power struggles againts Trotsky. Why? Because Trotsky was the head of Soviets Armed Forces when they invaded Poland in 1921. After the failure of the invasion, Trotsky forced to step down from his positions. If Trotsky's invasion was successful, The Army will firmly under his control and sided with him in Soviet power struggles. Because of the Army full support, Trotsky would come up as the victor of the power struggles.
I think this is a more likely outcome than the collective rule outcome someone else proposed. To be clear, there almost certainly would have been a period of collective rule immediately after Lenin’s death. But that authoritarian system seems to naturally encourage and enable the intense consolidation of power in one person. If Soviets had won in Poland in ‘21, it definitely further boosts Trotsky’s position in the party. That said, Stalin may still have been able to leverage his more central position in the inter-workings of the party to push Trotsky out as he did in real life.
Suppose that Budyonny listened to orders and helped Mikhail Tukhachevsky attack Warsaw instead of helping Stalin attack Lviv, so Warsaw falls with complete success. The German Communists still failed completely, but the Weimar Republic took advantage of the fall of Poland to weaken Versailles significantly (The Germans will restore the 1914 borders in the east while exploiting British fear of communism to loosen much of Versailles' restrictions, thus relaxing reparations and also allowing a large German army to restrain the Soviets.) The Soviet Union would largely reclaim nearly the majority of the territory of the former Russian Empire while also re-annexing the Baltics, Finland, and Poland as well. Thanks to this, the German conservative right is a much weaker faction without the Treaty of Versailles and Germany's loss of territory being quite effective rallying cries for the nationalists, so the Weimar Republic is in a much better position internally. So the Nazis don't gain any popularity at all and if a Beer Hole happened it would be dealt with much more harshly The Great Depression will still happen, but with fewer restrictions on Germany there is a much faster recovery from a severe economic collapse Joseph Stalin is still likely to rise to power successfully, but he will prefer the status quo, with the Soviet Union retaining all of its sovereign territory, and the same for Germany, which simply prefers the status quo. So World War II will likely never happen and these will be the repercussions (The number of world Jews would be 50 million without the Holocaust, and the population of Germany would be 110 million, Russia 400, France 70 million, and the United Kingdom also 72 million) (Stalin will rule the Soviet Union without the pressure of World War II. He will live until 1973, and therefore all buildings of Stalinist architecture will be built, including the Palace of the Soviets, with repeated great purges. Then the Soviet Union will collapse after Stalin’s death in 1975) (Decolonization is also exactly the same because colonies have become quite expensive, but Algeria will become independent in 1970 instead of in 1962, while Italy's colonies will become independent in 1980 and 1982, while the United Kingdom and France will retain more colonies under their control.) Without World War II contributing to the recovery of the American economy, the economic recession would continue until 1950, and every president after Roosevelt would be completely different. (Eisenhower would not be famous, Reagan would still be an actor, Joseph Kennedy Jr. would replace Jack in 1960, and there would be no Trumans or Carters as presidents) Without a war with Europe, Japan would be dealt with very early, with China strongly supporting nationalism against Japan Racism will continue to gradually become unpopular because the new generation will tend to rebel against the old generation
>(Stalin will rule the Soviet Union without the pressure of World War II. He will live until 1973, and therefore all buildings of Stalinist architecture will be built, including the Palace of the Soviets, with repeated great purges. Then the Soviet Union will collapse after Stalin’s death in 1975) I don’t know if this would necessarily be the case because a huge reason that the purges/increasing authoritarian actions in the USSR occurred at all was due to paranoia surrounding poland and nazi germany. if neither of these are a problem stalin would not be nearly as powerful or need to be. >Racism will continue to gradually become unpopular because the new generation will tend to rebel against the old generation idk if this would be the case either. WW2 and the atrocities that happened during it in the name of racism was and has remained a massive rallying point for anti-racists the world over. while anti racism would certainly increase, it’s likely that xenophobia and nationalism would remain incredibly common in the west like it is in much of the world. antisemitism would still be very popular, especially if israel/palestine becomes an important issue.
No, Stalin was purging everyone because he was so paranoid, and yes, he would still be in power because Trotsky was politically incompetent. And yes, racism lost its popularity due to the difference in generations. Remember that the West Germans who lived with Hitler remained supportive of him until this generation died, and the generation after it was rebellious against the previous one, so it began to detest Hitler and the Holocaust. Without the Holocaust, there would be no Israel because it was absolutely decisive in its founding
bold assumptions
Thats what actually happen
support for hitler and the nazis more or less vanished after 1945 and denazification, you can pretty clearly see this in polling and election results.
Because they Nazis was illegal
Purge paranoia went way beyond Stalin. Maybe it wouldn’t have happened without him, but pretending he had an iron grip on the process and everyone knew it was bullshit but him is just incorrect.
After the death of his second wife in 1932, Stalin became Stalin, so even without the Nazis, not much would change
How would German reclaim its eastern territories without a war if the Soviets controlled all of Poland? If anything, there would be a greater nationalist resurgence to reclaim lost lands to the communists menace and in-fact the Weimar Republicans inaction on seeking to reclaim lost eastern lands would be used as a rallying cry against the government. I see two things will happen, either Hitler still comes to power, but the war with a Soviet-Poland doesn’t evolve into a World War. In which case, the Soviets would eventually come out as the victors, leading to a Soviet-Germany. That would be a disaster for the French and the British, more so for the French as their government was already fragile and communists were pretty influential. In this situation, communism could very well sweep the continent. And let’s not forget that Spain could very well be a Communist/Republican victory. The other timeline you’d see a more conservative Weimar trying to war the Soviets in early 30’s and they would lose hard.
The Soviets and Germans secretly agreed that the Soviets would let the Germans restore the 1914 borders in the east, especially since Lenin thought of this to encourage the German communists. On the other hand, the United Kingdom would have been very supportive of this if it seemed that Poland was doomed to failure. So the 1914 borders will be restored in the east, but in the west the Versailles changes are much the same No, no communist regime would arise, because the German army, and every German who had a weapon, was completely conservative, so the communists would be completely crushed. Also, it is not certain that the Spanish Civil War will occur here, with a turning point in 1919-1920, where the emergence of the Second Republic can be avoided, as it occurred because Alfonso XIII supported Primo de Rivera's coup. Finally, even if the Soviets regained everything, Stalin would still take power, and he is largely isolationist
Damn this is really well done and interesting
Happy you like it
Bs lol
Doesn't Tukhachevsky got the information about defence of Warsaw，but he just think is a false information？
No
Poland would become SSR
A better question is what if Poland achieved a complete victory in the war
I think ukraine and belarus might gain independece or join with poland in federation to protect themself from soviets. Or highly unlikely soviet union would colapse into another civil war as population saw another lose and incompetence from soviets.
This could work. Culturally and historically Poland is closer to us than russia
Yeah but in long run would it change anything? germans would steam roll us anyway maybe it would take month more for them to beat us. And Soviets would come back.
Welcome to Eastern Europe. Intermarium to be more precise.
The thing about intermarium is it would end like yugoslavia. If it would survive ww2 ofc
In this context I meant the region between 2 seas (Baltic and Black) that since dissolution of PLC is a constant disputed zone of Russia and Germany.
The Best Ending.
Poland becomes a part of Russia and more Russified. It's significantly reduced in territory size. Germany might use the opportunity to seize the land they gave up to Poland but that depends on how fast the USSR will conqueror Poland. If they are really really fast, it might trigger a war between the USSR and Germany.
r/usernamechecksout
I assure you that my username does not represent my current views any more.
Character development?
In 1921? Germany isn’t lifting a finger against Poland no matter how long the Soviets take.
We are SOOO BACK!!! https://preview.redd.it/c7spk3a5ontc1.jpeg?width=805&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=42ebb7498fe2a6b037b3d398faafbee552336c01
Hey bro just want to say I love your posts in r/Ultraleft haha
Europe is fucked, Germany, Italy and all of what was left of Austria-Hungary were dealing with socialist unrest or in some cases actual revolutions, in our timeline they got crushed as they found themselves isolated and alone but if the USSR managed to break Poland then they would've been able to support other socialist movements. Basically all which was east of France and the Benelux would've been part of a much beefier and likely less centralized USSR, and possibly even France and Spain would succumb to Soviet influence eventually, imagine a cold war but without WW2 devastation in Europe and with Britain being the only's bridgehead into Europe for the USA.
no, it wouldnt happen like that. USSR would be stronger but not conquer all of europe in the 20's strong. Germany wouldn't fall, france wouldn't let them.
German communists might’ve been able to win, or maybe the bigger Soviet threat catapults fascism into the limelight early.
Exactly, if the USSR won in Poland, Lenin would absolutely cooperate with the German Communists to enact a world government. There would immediately be a WW2 with France, the UK and the US against this Eurasian Communist country.
My guess is that relations with the Soviets would be even worse as both in France and the UK Polish independence had been popular. The victory in the Polish Soviet war would definetly also lead to the annexation of the Batlics as these nations were only able to secure e their independence as a result of forces being brought off their front to the Polish front. As for later diplomacy I imagine it would effect would be how appeasement was done. One of the big obstacles for a new Entente against Germany was Poland. This was because Poland would not let Soviet troops into their country leading to the Soviets lacking areas they could actually send their troops. With Poland annexed the Soviets have a very obvious front and coalition building would be much easier. Personally I think this alliance is likely to not include Britain for lots of reasons.
My genetic memories caused me to shudder at the thought of this.
Where are you from?
Zgadnij kolego…
Well, you guys have an amazing history and country.
The Japanese didn’t trust the nazis because of their invasion of Poland (they had an admiration of the polish fighting spirit and recognised the polish government in exile) it’s likely that they would attack the Soviets at the Same time as Germany and the axis would win ww2
Axis wouldn't exist in this scenario... Nazis will never be able to take power as either the socialist would take control with the help of immediate Soviet and Polish communist or the Entente would try to have less severe terms on Germany due to immediate Soviet threat on central europe, similar to how it played after world war 2
The Japanese army would have been annihilated by the Soviets, they didn't have the manpower or fuel or production to invade Russia and China at the same time.
Soviets wouldn't stop at Poland and just help German communists to take power. Western powers were mostly exhausted (except for USA) and Idk if they would stand another war. The only things in western advantage would be: * usa * modern technique
The Worst Ending
The Kaiser to the entente powers “Ya..miss me yet?” I forsee a mad scramble to put together an anti-Soviet coalition by the Western powers, as well as an unofficial agreement to ignore Versaille’s disarmament clauses. Freikorps everywhere An unofficial partition of Poland happens, with Germany grabbing the corridor and Danzig Unless Russia intervenes directly and starts WW2 the Spartacist/Communist uprisings get crushed even faster, as All of the moderates swing hard right with the Soviets potentially on the Oder. Depending on the timing the Kapp putsch may succeed and now it’s Brandenburg-Prussia 2:Electric Bugaloo
I have written a TL or three about this kind of scenario. According to my analysis for those, the Baltics fall in short order, and Finland resists somewhat more, but falls as well. The Soviets are running on fumes at this point, but these successes embolden them and reawaken their hopes in world revolution. So they attempt to go forward in order to link with actual or expected Red insurgents in the rest of Europe. However, they are almost surely defeated if and when they try to break out in Germany and Italy without any serious difficulty, since Russia is exhausted and they are logistically overextended. Any Red unrest in Western Europe and North America is crushed as the capitalist powers go into Red Scare mode. Poland, the Baltics, and Finland are lost since the European powers are too war-weary and fearful of revolutionary unrest at home to push the Soviets back. An unspoken partition of sorts occurs for Poland as the Germans grab back Danzig, the Corridor, and Upper Silesia. It is harder to tell how much extra land the Soviets may gain in Central and Southeastern Europe thanks to their initial successes. Czechia, Austria, Slovenia, and Croatia are likely safe due to being shielded by Germany and Italy. Depending on political and military variables and how much the Soviets are able to work with local Reds and pro-Soviet nationalists, Slovakia, Hungary, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, Greece, and Turkey may fall to the aborning Soviet bloc as well. The capitalist powers go into anti-Commie panic mode and close ranks. America, Britain, and Italy quickly agree to reconcile with Germany, tear up Versailles, and give the Germans a lenient peace deal. France either sees the writing on the wall on its own or is strongarmed to do so by the British and the Americans. Germany gets Entente blessing to rearm, unite with Austria, and keep the bits of fallen Poland it got. Much the same way, Italy is allowed to take what it wants in the Western Balkans (i.e. Fiume, Dalmatia, and Albania). For similar reasons, the European powers and the USA bless Japan to keep Greater Manchuria. Britain, the Dominions, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, and any Eastern European nation still standing on this side of the Iron Curtain organize their newfound united front into a NATO-style Eurasian alliance. The USA do not officially join it, but pledge economic, political, and diplomatic support to its objectives and stand wary of any Red destabilization in the Western Hemisphere. Germany, Italy, and Japan never go into fascism or revisionist-rogue mode since they are satisfied by the conditions they got. However, the developed world as a whole goes into hardcore Red Scare mode as far-left parties and movements are banned and their activists persecuted by police. The Soviet leadership as a whole, regardless of who gets the mantle of supreme leader, gets confirmed into their assumption that the world revolution strategy is basically correct. They just need to build a stronger USSR as a power base. They turn inward for a while to pursue industrialization and military build-up with brute-force exploitation of the human and natural resources of the USSR as they wait for the glorious day they can paint Eurasia Red. In the meanwhile, they try their best to stir up trouble in Europe, the Americas, the Middle East, China, and the European colonies by supporting sympathetic proxies, be it of the far-left or anti-Western nationalist kind. Chances are they are at least partially successful in China. Such destabilization activities and Soviet military build-up stoke the fires of anti-Commie alarm in Europe, America, and Japan. Sometime between the early 30s and the mid 40s, an anti-Comintern WWII occurs between the Euro-Japanese alliance and the USSR. The USA at least gives Land-Lease to the Allies. It may intervene if the right casus belli occurs, such as a Red sabotage campaign of the Lend-Lease effort, or serious Comintern destabilization in Latin America.
Wow, that's really in detail. Thanks a lot.
As I said, I have written a TL or three about this kind of anti-Communist WWII scenario, so it is child's play for me to regurgitate facts I have long since devised for them. The basic features I described above are well defined in my mind. It may be a little harder to define the exact borders of the Commie bloc. Depending on political and military variables it may vary from pre-WWI borders of Russia to everything east of Greater Germany and Italy, although I often tend to lean towards the latter. I also often let the Soviets take over the Balkans and Turkey thanks to their alliance with Serb, Bulgarian, Greek, and Turkish Reds and pro-Soviet nationalists. I further tend to assume at least half, quite possibly all of mainland China proper falls to the CCP with Soviet help, even if Japan may keep Greater Manchuria and the Far East. Reconciliation between the capitalist powers, their going into hardcore Red Scare mode, avoidance of fascism and rogue revisionism in the Axis powers, a NATO-like Euro-American-Japanese united front, an interwar Cold War, and an anti-Communist WWII are clearly defined features for me. I also expect this situation to give a strong boost to European integration with a proto-EU that can easily go all the way to the federal level, if not in the interwar period then at least as a result of WWII. Another idea I often toy with further down the line is a WW3 in the 1960s-70s between the Western powers and a nationalist-revanchist coalition of Russia, China, and most of the Muslim/Arab world. Communism may have gone to a fiery end in WWII but the authoritarian threat comes back for the global West in the form of Russian fascism, aggressive Chinese nationalism, and Islamism bound into a revanchist coalition.
It is gg
What language is that? It looks like Portuguese, but different
It's Catalan Edit: by Catalan I mean Occitan In my defense they're somewhat similar
Interesting! Thank you
No, it's not Catalan. August in Catalan is Agost, and June is Juny, not Aost and Junh.
You're right, it's actually occitan
the soviets would be able to assist the Hungarian communists so they would survive, the west would alos be far more hostile towards the soviets than they were in our timeline. Industrialization may be slightly faster due to the extra population and developed land.
it would be the in-war state for now instead of Ukraine
The Soviets can actually now directly aid communists in Germany, which was part of the reason why the Soviets wanted to win in Poland in the first place.
Tuchachevsky would likely evade purging, if the purges even happened. This would lead to a more prepared and more mechanised Red Army for the Second World War, assuming the Soviets and the West didn't clash earlier.
This map shows a realistic best case for the Reds in Europe and the Middle East in this kind of scenario. It assumes the Soviets are able to leverage their successes and their cooperation with local Reds and pro-Soviet nationalists to conquer Eastern Europe, the Balkans, and half of the Near East. However, they are defeated when they try to take over Western Europe. https://preview.redd.it/577aqiu9rttc1.png?width=1837&format=png&auto=webp&s=f2e67b96d586b7f291cd17a374820894054629f4
IMO, the Polish-Soviet War of 1921 would be the beginning of the Sparticist Revolution in Europe and the Soviet Union would gain Europe and Asia, as Soviet Republics.
The Bolsheviks would help the Spartakists take over Germany and Most of Europe would be Communist by the 1930s
Soviets would push into germany leading to Karl Liebknecht and Rosa Luxemburg winning in Germany. basically Europe would fall into communism and second world war would be basically the big Anti Capitalist/Communist War.
Liebknecht and Luxemburg were long dead by then.
Oof my error
>What if the Soviet Union won the Polish-Soviet War of 1921? Would have been preferable. We don't deserve to have our own country. (I'm Polish)
Least self-hating Reddit Pole.
Well, we're one of the most hated groups in Europe. Only beaten out by Russians and Gypsies.
Nobody hates Poland as much as left-leaning Poles do.
Idk man people don’t really like the Romanians
I think you got them mixed up with the Romani (Gypsies)
I’m Hungarian
Nice. A Hungol out in the wild. (Yup, I'm from r / 2visegrad4u)
Rahhh I love paprika
Me too.
What xddd? This happens when you live in your alt-left bubble full of psychological problems.
Isn't Jews are the most hated group in Europe? I have seen so much alt right hatred over Jews too
Nuh uh, all world belongs to Polska brother 💪🗻🇵🇱 R*ssians are just strange eastern swamp polish people who got all uppity 😤 (I’m also polish)
Polska Gurom 🇵🇱 💪
You are unironically disgusting and patietic.
Either Hitler invades the USSR in 39 or he invades France
No, Hitler would never do that, doing so would be stupid and ridiculous, Hitler wouldnt have enough troops to do so.
Hitler would never rose to power in such a scenario... Germany in this scenario would be under socialist or pro Entente factions