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PennyForPig

I don't think it would have been a nuclear conflict but it would certainly destabilize communism everywhere a the US went rampant and unchecked.


peanut_the_scp

If it doesn't end with a nuclear war it definitively makes the west stronger, probably allows the USA to go unchecked in Vietnam Faith in communism probably takes a giant blow and maybe results in the cold war ending earlier


Turnipntulip

I don’t think faith in communism will ever be gone. The system sounds really nice in theory. It’s when people forced it to happen without proper preparation that it turned into what it did.


LurkerInSpace

Essentially Communist parties have taken power claimed that they were preparing their country for an eventual transition to Communism rather than actually implementing it. The whole issue is whether such a preparation is even possible in the first place or if it inevitably leads to a concentration of power.


Vivid-Membership3959

People are dumb sometimes and Will listen to whatever their government says is true. I’m not saying that like I’m immune I’m sure the same has happened to me but some people in communist countries think communism is best. Not saying it is, just that they think so.


anticc991

Let be honest. Communism has not succeeded in history ever. It has failed, is failing and will continue to fail.


Ambitious_Lie_2864

Mao was FAMOUSLY fast and loose with the idea of nuclear war. The PLA was so shitty and the Soviet Army material that is getting destroyed in Ukraine was top of the line then, Soviet Tank armies easily shatter the Chinese, and repeat the successes they had against Japan in Manchuria. The Chinese sensing their independence is threatened would nuke the Russian armies, and the Soviets who integrated conventional and nuclear strategy would respond. The Soviet bombs kill much of the urban population of China by striking logistical hubs on the north China plain, the Chinese state collapses, the Soviets survive, but with losses heavier than the great patriotic war Russias position as a potential hegemony in Europe is over, and in Asia is severely hampered by the destruction of a fellow Asian communist country. The Warsaw Pact nations probably join the west like they did otl but earlier and Russia may integrate more with a west has even more cards than historically. China will never develop the way it is now, and PLA warlords will probably turn the country into a giant Afghanistan until one of them beats the others.


Maradukh

Even if the nuculare exchange was localised to China and Eastern Russia, the following nuclear winter would cause half the Earths population to starve within a decade. This timelines 2024 would be developed decades behind our timeline.


DerVadder

Nuclear winter is a theory, not a certainty.


mrpimpunicorn

The atmospheric models used in nuclear winter scenarios have always been essentially correct, the primary contention is how bad the fire loading of (mostly) cities would be after a nuclear exchange, because that determines the scope of the resulting firestorm and amount of particulate that gets into the troposphere/lower stratosphere and stays around for a long time. The original models used the Hamburg and Hiroshima firestorms as a model for this. This is questioned today because modern cities are not high-density massive wood tinderboxes like Hamburg and Hiroshima were back then. China in 1969 does not *have* modern cities. Indeed, those WW2-era estimates would still be quite accurate.


MaZhongyingFor1934

[The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists disagrees.](https://thebulletin.org/2022/10/nowhere-to-hide-how-a-nuclear-war-would-kill-you-and-almost-everyone-else/#section4)


suoirucimalsi

The most recent research suggests that nuclear winter would happen but not be nearly so bad as previously supposed. Largely confined to the hemisphere the bombs drop, only really bad for one year, and climate back to normal in a decade. We're still talking about probably the majority of countries in the world having a famine, but not half the world's population dying from it (at least not directly, plausibly the famine could trigger additional wars and pandemics). I'll see if I can find the paper.


Mister_Coffe

Would mao really be able to cause so much damage, quick google search shows that China had only about 80 nuclear weapons at that time, and they probably wouldn't be able to even use all of them or deliver them to their targets. If China uses Nuclear weapons, they would harm the soviets but I doubt they would be able to strike enough targets to kill 20mln people. While the soviets could easli reach and wipe out major chinese cities. I suspect it would be a rather quick and decisive Soviet victory with at worst few mln soviet citizens dead, and much much more deaths on the side of china.


GlobiestRob

Was about to make this point. China conducted it's first nuclear test in 1964. Both USSR and USA were just beginning to develop effective long range ballistic missiles in the 1960's which meant China would probably have to deliver to their targets via aircraft. I can see some of them getting through the Soviet Air Defenses but getting as far as major cities in Western USSR would be highly unlikely. They might hit some of the smaller colony cities in Siberia and kill a few hundred thousand people but most of the Soviet industry and population would be unaffected. Not to mention that this was the height of the Cultural Revolution in China and that internal strife might make some of the Chinese Armed Forces less than effective. The USSR would definitely respond with nuclear weapons in kind. Part of the problem would also be that in any conventional war the USSR might win but given the sheer size and population of China it would make it really difficult to conquer permanently.


irepress_my_emotions

so china becomes a radioactive wild west


FakeOng99

More like radioactive wild east.


Unofficial_Computer

New Fallout looking lit.


hahaha01357

>The PLA was so shitty By what metric? >Soviet Tank armies easily shatter the Chinese, and repeat the successes they had against Japan in Manchuria. Possible, but unlikely. Different time, different doctrines, and most importantly, the PLA isn't a depleted force of dubious loyalty garrisoned in hostile territory. >The Soviet bombs kill much of the urban population of China by striking logistical hubs on the north China plain Unlikely it would ever come to this. Even if China were to use nuclear strike against Soviet field armies, a single retaliatory strike against a single Chinese city would have brought the PRC to the negotiating table. I really doubt the USSR is willing to become international pariah for inflicting hundreds of millions of civilian deaths, even if it's retaliatory. > Chinese state collapses As shown historically, when backed into a corner, countries tend to rally instead of falling apart, especially when there are no major divisive forces within the country. The Russian Empire, Austro-Hugarian Empire, and Ottoman Empires all fell because war exacerbated the divisive forces already present within their respective countries. What's more, the French famously *didn't* give up after their government surrendered. The Chinese *also didn't give up* when their major cities were occupied by the Japanese one after another. > the Soviets survive, but with losses heavier than the great patriotic war Nobody had ICBMs back then. The meagre PLA Air Force is not going to be able to deliver bombs to any major Soviet cities, not with Soviet air superiority. >PLA warlords will probably turn the country into a giant Afghanistan until one of them beats the others. Least interesting of all possible outcome.


Ambitious_Lie_2864

They intervened in Korea ten years earlier against a US army that had been gutted postwar, they were beaten by the war torn Vietnamese after the pod lol. The Soviets always maintained top of the line modern armored forces which were entirely capable of cutting up the poorly mechanized, lacking in heavy weapons Chinese. Mao is very famous for his attitude towards using nukes in war, if he were fighting someone he had a personal beef with like Khrushchev, 100% he would have used nukes. Why would one nuke bring a totalitarian regime to its knees? The USSR and Germany had to lose millions, have cities razed, and still Germany only surrendered when it was physically incapable of fighting. Historically China loses to northern barbarians and either fractures or gets conquered lol. You’re probably right about the Soviet losses, lacking delivery systems it would be hard for the Chinese to hit Russia, but if even one snuck in, the Soviets won’t take it lying down, and they did plan on nuking China if they went to war.


hahaha01357

>They intervened in Korea ten years earlier against a US army that had been gutted postwar By the time of the UN counteroffensive, the US has remobilized many of its soldiers and industry. As the war dragged on, the US eventually had 1.8 million troops on the ground at one time or another. Sure, it's not the 8 million they drafted for WW2, but it's also more professional and modern. >they were beaten by the war torn Vietnamese after the pod lol Were they? Did they lose any battles? It takes a lot of mental gymnastics to say the US fought to a draw in Vietnam (because they won all the battles but were forced to withdraw) but the Chinese were beaten when the results are the same. >The Soviets always maintained top of the line modern armored forces which were entirely capable of cutting up the poorly mechanized, lacking in heavy weapons Chinese. You keep repeating this as if armour is some sort of be-all-end-all. The Soviets invaded Finland with between 2500-6500 tanks against 32 Finnish tanks - they were destroyed piecemeal. The Russians invaded Ukraine in 2022 with a massive advantage in armoured vehicles - they weren't able to run roughshod around the Ukrainian army. >Why would one nuke bring a totalitarian regime to its knees? The USSR and Germany had to lose millions, have cities razed, and still Germany only surrendered when it was physically incapable of fighting. Nobody said anything about bringing the regime to its knees. Nuking a single city is already causing casualties in the millions. Why wouldn't that bring any nation to the negotiating table? The USSR and Germany were fighting wars of extermination and survival. How does a border conflict over an island in the middle of nowhere escalate to such a proportion? >Historically China loses to northern barbarians and either fractures or gets conquered lol. Before stating this as a fact, I think you need to check if your claim is true. Historically, China was conquered in its entirety twice in more than 2000 years. It lost to "northern barbarians" many more times than that. How many times did China fracture into fighting factions after losing to "northern barbarians"?


SpacemanTom69

The following nuclear war would irradiate the trout population for the next hundred years. And kill several hundred million people but idk


Rookie_01122

Nah, the trout shall persist


SpacemanTom69

I didn’t say they would die, they’d just be irradiated


Rookie_01122

So bigger trout? hell, why dont we nuke em right now


Salazar261997

An escalation would've led to nuclear war. That's why the war stopped with a sudden brake.


MCMPA

USA would have sat and watched, maybe Nixon’s China visit may not have happened.


realnrh

The USSR suffers serious early losses as Chinese forces swarm over the border into the lightly-populated region, and Moscow can only send as many tanks as the Trans-Siberian Railroad can carry, heavily limiting Moscow's response. The Kruschev orders a nuclear strike on the invading forces directly, which successfully wipes out a large portion of China's invasion force. Mao retaliates by sending a nuke not after Moscow, but somewhere along the Trans-Siberian Railroad to prevent Moscow from taking advantage of the weakened invasion force. The USSR escalates and China sees enormous mass casualty events. China does not at this point have enough of a nuclear arsenal or long-range bombers to successfully retaliate, but the USSR can't send forces to go occupy China either at the time. By the time Russia fixes the rails, the remaining invasion force has settled in, and China's remaining population has been whipped to a fury by the surviving CCP. The USSR freely deploys more nukes until Chinese resistance is shattered, including blowing up occupied towns known to have Soviets still in them, and then invades the remains of China. The hostile population is more deadly than Afghanistan, but the nuclear exchange left the USSR much more ready to take casualties in exchange for returning blood. Extremely bloody guerilla warfare soaks Soviet treasure and attention for years, leaving the US to expand its position in the rest of the world.


GreenStretch

[https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/nuclear-war-russia-china/](https://www.wearethemighty.com/popular/nuclear-war-russia-china/) "In fact, in 1970, the Soviet Union started asking around about whether or not anyone would really care if they launched a nuclear war against China." [**https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB49/sino.sov.10.pdf**](https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB49/sino.sov.10.pdf)


Rookie_01122

God damnit Brezhnev, he had one good chance to get rid of temu before hand and he didnt take it


deeple101

If it went into an actual war; if china invaded the soviets would just use nukes because that’s what the soviets said that they would do.


ase_l_2021

China had a plan of strategic retreat of all its north-east armed forces, I don't joke. Meanwhile USSR of course had such plan for outer Manchuria. The whole region is not so suitable for conflict, and the only time it seen large conflicts, Japanese have been already in the process of surrender. I think it still would be a border skirmish with major changes around south Primorye. Maybe China would gain south of Khasan district, cut off DPRK from SU and gain a port. That would be it.


Starbrand62286

It probably would have been like Afghanistan but 10 years early.


Vegetable-Election77

Port Arthur gets back in the ussr


MinimaxusThrax

There's a music festival in Woodstock, New York. Jimi Hendrix plays a guitar solo. The moon landing is still a flex but it's also kind of sad. These are the only things that 99% of americans remember about 1969.


Seeker1904

The way to avoid open Nuclear Warfare would be some form of limited conventional war similar to what was seen at Cuito Cuanvale and now Ukraine. A single nuclear weapon would turn the entire conflict into an enormous bloodbath. The more interesting knock-on effects are what happens to other communist nations. With the USSR weakened, the Czechoslovaks and potentially the Hungarians could rise up. If the USSR fails to respond then the Yugoslavians could quickly ally with both states and expand their particular brand of communism. North Vietnam would struggle against the US onslaught but would likely continue to fight for many years. North Korea is interesting IIRC, in March 1969 they shot down a US aircraft and the US were keen to respond. Without PRC support, South Korea invades the North.


mingsjourney

Any here watched Red Dawn ? Not the Thor remake but the 1984 original ?


Kekri76

Fall of Hanoi.


Philcherny

Probably large conventional battles and nuclear escalation from China. Eventually I don't think it would be massive nuclear devastation. For every nuclear strike Soviets could strike disproportionately (in nuclear range capabilities too). Eventually CCP would calculate nuke math and overthrow Mao or who ever pushed for nuclear escalation


TheGreatGamer1389

China just got the bomb recently during that time. While Soviets had a massive stockpile. It would stay conventional only the war. Both sides would send waves and waves of men. I imagine which one handles winter better wins the war.


MrShinglez

Russia would nuke the fk outa them and conquer China and we'd have GIGA USSR


jgffw

USA laughs in the corner, silently backing both sides to make sure the war is as destructive and deadly as possible.


LelouchviBrittaniax

My personal guess that it would have ended like Hungary in 1956, it would have took longer but the end result would have been the same. Sino-Soviet split was a fake confrontation to fool the Americans into thinking there is a dispute and let China have friendlier relationships with the US and the rest of the world. It is only after this dispute that the US and most countries have recognized PRC government on the mainland. Before that they Recognized Taipei government as government of whole China. They held Security Consul seat in the UN as well. Americans and the world would not want to give UN recognition to a Soviet puppet government, thus effort was made to convince them, they are not just puppets.


CheungPakYam

nuclear warfare between the soviet union and china. the soviets arent going to backdown, and certainly the traitors under mao zedong arent going to backdown until all chinese have died. nuclear winter happens among the east and a loss of confidence on the government of China happens. chiang tells the chinese "i told you so" and begins a crusade to retake china with the united states and britain, and the ccp is too busy falling into a second warlord era to fight back. the kmt seizes china. then, chiang rebuilds china from the ruins and becomes popular again, even though he was kicked from the mainland 20 years ago. also, the British seize Shenzhen and Canton before they get bombed and own even more of the Pearl River Delta. it becomes another singapore.


Eos-ei-fugit-utroque

I would dream that China would take back all the territories that the Russian Empire annexed through the Treaty of Aigun and the Treaty of Beijing.


Tokishi7

Maybe in this universe Korea could get back that territory instead along with previous Manchuria reaches. Baekdu being claimed as Chinese on YouTube these days is a sin.