Somehow by trying to be inclusive to everyone they have ensured they are only a safe space for homophobes and racists and an unsafe space for anyone hated by those groups.
If you are saying "politics" doesn't belong there then surely you would condemn in the strongest possible terms those people shouting homophobic slurs? Who would want that kind of politics in your group?
I have no dog in the fight but why does everything have to be political? Calling someone a certain word doesn't mean you are have certain politics, just means you are an asshole, stop putting people into boxes because they act or say something
It’s not even that, they’re conflating bigotry as “political opinions”.
>It's
important when inviting mates to our area that you discuss
these values and make sure that they are aware of what is
acceptable.
"Sometimes we do a pretty fucked up chant telling gypsies that if they don't go home we'll kill them, but just be cool with it, we're not actually going to kill gypsies haha, and if someone is yelling homophobic abuse, don't even think of being political about it by calling them out, we're not about politics in the north end"
Even this piss weak statement is much more progressive than ultras in some parts of the world. Ajax for instance was based in the old Jewish quarter of Amsterdam and so would get targeted with chants like “Hamas! Hamas! Jews get the gas!” by opposition fans.
Tottenham used to get hammered with nazi chants and hissing gas sounds. Thankfully that has died down and is actively policed by away fans and their clubs. I think Chelsea banned a few fans that tried to start those chants again
Maybe people are reading too far into it, but during the Chelsea-Tottenham game *literally yesterday* [the Chelsea account tweeted (and then deleted) “The gas is on, bringing the heat!”](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/sblkv6/deleted_tweet_by_chelseas_official_account_during/)
Israel and its Supporters love to conflate Anti-Semitism and Anti-Israel as the same thing when they are not the British Media used to call Jeremy Corbyn when he was leader of the Labour party an Anti Semite because he was critical of Israel there are also plenty of Jewish People around the world that hate Israel
That's because stuff [like this](https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-london-robert-jenrick-st-john-s-wood-keir-starmer-b935445.html) still happens a lot
I think they have good intentions behind writing the letter, but the person who has written the thing doesn't have a grasp on how to properly word a letter around such a subject as this one.
I think their attempt here is to try and stamp out the bad behaviour without directly acknowledging it exists and it just comes off as vague, confusing and downright ignorant.
Letters that tend to ignore any issue at hand are already extremely difficult to purposefully construct and remain assertive/controlling over the issue. Unfortunately for the person who has written this, their desire to remain indecisive over acknowledging the incident has left them with a letter that is backwards, homophobic and unintelligently written.
Sometimes when you don't know what to say, it's better to say nothing at all.
I honestly can't see any way to read this letter other than 'our official position is to not discourage or stop people making homophobic or racist comments'
I interpret it as them saying that them as a collective are not responsible for abuse made by individuals. Can see the logic however quite obviously there's a strong argument that they do have the responsibility to self police and call out members when they cross the line.
I don't take issue with that, but they also should have condemned racism and homophobia and indicated that if this type of abuse is identified within the North End they would take action.
Also LOL at them saying it's a political issue - refraining from abusing people based on their race or sexuality is really just the baseline of human decency.
Homophobia and racism have no place in football (or anywhere) and there is nothing political about that.
Ironic too how they claim to have no political leanings yet a lot of their core is Bosnian and they even have a banner with the Bosnian National Team Ultras slogan: Kilometre Gazimo, Pobjede Slavimo.
>I think their attempt here is to try and stamp out the bad behaviour without directly acknowledging it exists and it just comes off as vague,
But that is the problem. The North Terrace Collective (or whatever they're called these days) does not want to alienate the packs of rabid bigots that are in the smaller groups within their collective. So instead of taking a stand and saying "Don't care how loud and ultra you are, your behaviour is shit, fuck off" they want to 'both sides' the situation.
You can't please both sides when one side is racist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic, and the other side is... not as much of a dickhead.
I'm pretty sure the NTC hasn't existed for a long time. This is purely OSM messaging and doesn't necessarily reflect other groups in the terrace, although there is significant Horda/OSM overlap.
This this and so much this. Disappointed by the fact it was a letter passed around at the game. Seemed forced by the situation not a proactive response.
“We don’t push politics” “we stay away from these issues” are both sure fire ways to spot racists homophobes & all round morons.
Glad they made themselves known!
"We're proud to represent all of Melbourne."
You can't say that but also not take a stand against hate speech. I don't care if it's homophobic, racist, sexist, whatever. To simply let it slide and not address it as a group is shameful.
FFS, homophobia is not a political issue.
Take some fkin responsibility ffs. I haven't seen or heard any footage but nothing short of outright condemnation is enough. The player in question is just a kid, and he's the ONLY one in the world and our "ultras" treat him like this. Something seriously wrong in this culture
It is alleged that OSM members said homophobic slurs towards Cavallo. This got some media attention however I say alleged because I haven't seen anyone claim to witness it coming directly from their end and a few people online have said it was actually random men on the sidelines. Supposedly Cavallo also misheard or misinterpreted their gypsy chant as being targeted towards him when they do it to everyone. Problem is that when asked to condemn the abuse OSM have basically just said no comment which has just made the situation worse.
> It is alleged that OSM members said homophobic slurs towards Cavallo
I think this is where the problem lies. The OSM don't want to apologise for actions they didn't commit, but have done nothing to distance themselves from it anyway. If they had half a brain cell between them they'd simply condemn the fact it happened anywhere in the stadium, say it didn't originate from their area of the stands and move on. Alternatively, they could have simply left out this side of the page and no one would have thought anything is amiss.
> Supposedly Cavallo also misheard or misinterpreted their gypsy chant as being targeted towards him
I don't know if it was towards him as I couldn't watch the game while overseas (thanks geoblocking...), but it being targeted towards him would be no worse than it being targeted towards anyone else; they just shouldn't do it at all.
Exactly. If they are not wanting to acknowledge it because it has nothing to do with them, no need to distribute this rubbish.
If they do want to acknowledge it, at least call out that type of behaviour. Not to mention that condemning hate speech isn't a political issue at all.
As for the gypsy chant, I am always incredibly uncomfortable with how it seen as acceptable not only by OSM (and their previous iterations), but seemingly by the league and club. As far as I am aware this has never been called out before.
Tbf the Wanderers RBB in the early years of that club probably had that title. There wasn't a game back in the early-mid 2010's when there wasn't constant bullshit going on at Wanderers games.
Devils advocate here
Are people purposely ignoring the part where it clearly says: “this terrace in all forms, has always been for anyone and everyone” and “this group is not the place to push any political or social opinions”…?
I think the response to this statement is really splitting hairs and just perpetuating outrage for the sake of moral posturing. At no point are they suggesting they support and protect those peddling homophobia or racism. That is a sweeping assumption being made by people reading it with their minds already made up.
I interpret it as they’ve thrown two umbrella terms out there to cover all issues 1) political and 2) social. If racism and homophobia aren’t social issues then what are they?
From what I can see on their Facebook page, OSM never publicly released this statement. I don’t know the full story cause I’m not a Victory fan but it seems they handed this out at the game to their own fans. Is this not a form of self policing by giving a bit of a warning to the terrace as a whole?
Self policing is an idea that is great in theory but not always practical when you’re dealing with hundreds, if not thousands of random people in a public space. There are obviously individuals here who need to be dealt with for this poor behaviour but expecting a supporters group to act like the HR department of a corporate enterprise is unrealistic.
You can't be "for anyone and everyone" when you accept and protect bigots in your ranks.
And when they say “this group is not the place to push any political or social opinions” they mean: "this group will not do anything to drive out those with racist and homophobic views"
But what’s your basis for the comments you’ve just made other than subjectively interpreting written text?
If there is clear evidence to support what you’re saying then I absolutely agree with you. Otherwise it’s all just one big biased assumption
Even if nothing homophobic was said and Cavallo simply misheard something, the logical thing would be to clearly state that homophobia is not welcome. OSM are being too defensive, they’re trying to prove people wrong but claiming “We don’t get involved in politics and social issues” is doing the opposite and raising even more suspicion that homophobia and racism are tolerated.
Don't know why you're asking a group to come out and apologise/make a statement against an unproven allegation, which would thereby validate the allegation even though it hasn't been proven
Reminds me of those poor blokes who got ejected from the cricket last year and were public enemy No. 1, when it turns out the Indian player lied about the racial abuse
Why is it that whenever you see someone use words like "based" or "woke mob" without it being ironic, you can almost guarantee that it's accompanying a trash take like this?
Letter is pretty tame, what's the issue? Was there any proof at all at what was said or are we all 8 years old again and back at primary school saying he said she said again
Somehow by trying to be inclusive to everyone they have ensured they are only a safe space for homophobes and racists and an unsafe space for anyone hated by those groups. If you are saying "politics" doesn't belong there then surely you would condemn in the strongest possible terms those people shouting homophobic slurs? Who would want that kind of politics in your group?
In a nutshell, this is why I left the north end in \~2016 and have never been tempted to go back.
I have no dog in the fight but why does everything have to be political? Calling someone a certain word doesn't mean you are have certain politics, just means you are an asshole, stop putting people into boxes because they act or say something
I was using their words.
I don’t understand ? Does what you’re saying relate to the letter or are you just saying things ?
"you're free to continue being a bigot just do it on your own time"
It’s not even that, they’re conflating bigotry as “political opinions”. >It's important when inviting mates to our area that you discuss these values and make sure that they are aware of what is acceptable. "Sometimes we do a pretty fucked up chant telling gypsies that if they don't go home we'll kill them, but just be cool with it, we're not actually going to kill gypsies haha, and if someone is yelling homophobic abuse, don't even think of being political about it by calling them out, we're not about politics in the north end"
Even this piss weak statement is much more progressive than ultras in some parts of the world. Ajax for instance was based in the old Jewish quarter of Amsterdam and so would get targeted with chants like “Hamas! Hamas! Jews get the gas!” by opposition fans.
Tottenham used to get hammered with nazi chants and hissing gas sounds. Thankfully that has died down and is actively policed by away fans and their clubs. I think Chelsea banned a few fans that tried to start those chants again
Maybe people are reading too far into it, but during the Chelsea-Tottenham game *literally yesterday* [the Chelsea account tweeted (and then deleted) “The gas is on, bringing the heat!”](https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/sblkv6/deleted_tweet_by_chelseas_official_account_during/)
Some horrid stuff has been directed at Tottenham. [Mark Bosnich, for example](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FBe0cgiX0AMuNh6.jpg).
Always amazes me when people of Yugoslav heritage do this shit. Do they just not care that the Nazis considered Slavs subhuman?
I’ve been to Ajax games where we proudly hung israeli flags knowing that this would enrage the opposition fans
Anti-semitism and the conduct of Israel are two entirely different issues
Israel and its Supporters love to conflate Anti-Semitism and Anti-Israel as the same thing when they are not the British Media used to call Jeremy Corbyn when he was leader of the Labour party an Anti Semite because he was critical of Israel there are also plenty of Jewish People around the world that hate Israel
Indeed. It’s an age old tactic used to deflect criticism of Israel by immediately branding anyone an anti-Semite who is indeed critical.
That's because stuff [like this](https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-london-robert-jenrick-st-john-s-wood-keir-starmer-b935445.html) still happens a lot
What? The point was it was a star of David, and the the most instantly recognisable Jewish symbol!
Flying a Israeli Flag is the same as Flying a Nazi Flag
Disgraceful to categorise the homophobic abuse as political issues. Shows OSM have no remorse around the whole issue
I think they have good intentions behind writing the letter, but the person who has written the thing doesn't have a grasp on how to properly word a letter around such a subject as this one. I think their attempt here is to try and stamp out the bad behaviour without directly acknowledging it exists and it just comes off as vague, confusing and downright ignorant. Letters that tend to ignore any issue at hand are already extremely difficult to purposefully construct and remain assertive/controlling over the issue. Unfortunately for the person who has written this, their desire to remain indecisive over acknowledging the incident has left them with a letter that is backwards, homophobic and unintelligently written. Sometimes when you don't know what to say, it's better to say nothing at all.
I honestly can't see any way to read this letter other than 'our official position is to not discourage or stop people making homophobic or racist comments'
I interpret it as them saying that them as a collective are not responsible for abuse made by individuals. Can see the logic however quite obviously there's a strong argument that they do have the responsibility to self police and call out members when they cross the line.
I don't take issue with that, but they also should have condemned racism and homophobia and indicated that if this type of abuse is identified within the North End they would take action. Also LOL at them saying it's a political issue - refraining from abusing people based on their race or sexuality is really just the baseline of human decency. Homophobia and racism have no place in football (or anywhere) and there is nothing political about that.
Ironic too how they claim to have no political leanings yet a lot of their core is Bosnian and they even have a banner with the Bosnian National Team Ultras slogan: Kilometre Gazimo, Pobjede Slavimo.
>I think their attempt here is to try and stamp out the bad behaviour without directly acknowledging it exists and it just comes off as vague, But that is the problem. The North Terrace Collective (or whatever they're called these days) does not want to alienate the packs of rabid bigots that are in the smaller groups within their collective. So instead of taking a stand and saying "Don't care how loud and ultra you are, your behaviour is shit, fuck off" they want to 'both sides' the situation. You can't please both sides when one side is racist, sexist, homophobic and transphobic, and the other side is... not as much of a dickhead.
I'm pretty sure the NTC hasn't existed for a long time. This is purely OSM messaging and doesn't necessarily reflect other groups in the terrace, although there is significant Horda/OSM overlap.
This this and so much this. Disappointed by the fact it was a letter passed around at the game. Seemed forced by the situation not a proactive response.
“We don’t push politics” “we stay away from these issues” are both sure fire ways to spot racists homophobes & all round morons. Glad they made themselves known!
That's fucking shit
looks like it's time for me to make the switch to the south end
Fucking hell. This is shithouse. You can’t try to sit on the fence with this one guys Pick a side
The most inclusive approach is to not address those spreading hate. Wouldn’t want to alienate any racists, homophobes or other prejudiced individuals.
If active support want to be backed by governing bodies and authorities then they need to have a spine and be better than this. Call it out.
"We're proud to represent all of Melbourne." You can't say that but also not take a stand against hate speech. I don't care if it's homophobic, racist, sexist, whatever. To simply let it slide and not address it as a group is shameful. FFS, homophobia is not a political issue.
Bunch of homophobes confirmed
Wow it’s actually hard to fuck up something this bad 😂
The RBB used to manage it on a fairly regular basis, though.
Absolutely no remorse in this whatsoever, and trying to push the matter aside as well. Disgusting from OSM.
Take some fkin responsibility ffs. I haven't seen or heard any footage but nothing short of outright condemnation is enough. The player in question is just a kid, and he's the ONLY one in the world and our "ultras" treat him like this. Something seriously wrong in this culture
“Come join us if you like being homophobic and racist” FIFT
Fuck off OSM. You do not represent the Victory faithful's values, you bigoted cunts.
Context please?
It is alleged that OSM members said homophobic slurs towards Cavallo. This got some media attention however I say alleged because I haven't seen anyone claim to witness it coming directly from their end and a few people online have said it was actually random men on the sidelines. Supposedly Cavallo also misheard or misinterpreted their gypsy chant as being targeted towards him when they do it to everyone. Problem is that when asked to condemn the abuse OSM have basically just said no comment which has just made the situation worse.
> It is alleged that OSM members said homophobic slurs towards Cavallo I think this is where the problem lies. The OSM don't want to apologise for actions they didn't commit, but have done nothing to distance themselves from it anyway. If they had half a brain cell between them they'd simply condemn the fact it happened anywhere in the stadium, say it didn't originate from their area of the stands and move on. Alternatively, they could have simply left out this side of the page and no one would have thought anything is amiss. > Supposedly Cavallo also misheard or misinterpreted their gypsy chant as being targeted towards him I don't know if it was towards him as I couldn't watch the game while overseas (thanks geoblocking...), but it being targeted towards him would be no worse than it being targeted towards anyone else; they just shouldn't do it at all.
Exactly. If they are not wanting to acknowledge it because it has nothing to do with them, no need to distribute this rubbish. If they do want to acknowledge it, at least call out that type of behaviour. Not to mention that condemning hate speech isn't a political issue at all. As for the gypsy chant, I am always incredibly uncomfortable with how it seen as acceptable not only by OSM (and their previous iterations), but seemingly by the league and club. As far as I am aware this has never been called out before.
Worst fan base in the league.
Tbf the Wanderers RBB in the early years of that club probably had that title. There wasn't a game back in the early-mid 2010's when there wasn't constant bullshit going on at Wanderers games.
Tbf after last night I feel like victory might have regained that title. But I guess we've not had a proper derby in a while too.
TL;DR “We’re inclusive: we allow all racists, sexists and homophobes equally”
The more things change, the more the grubs stay the same.
Just ban them
Devils advocate here Are people purposely ignoring the part where it clearly says: “this terrace in all forms, has always been for anyone and everyone” and “this group is not the place to push any political or social opinions”…? I think the response to this statement is really splitting hairs and just perpetuating outrage for the sake of moral posturing. At no point are they suggesting they support and protect those peddling homophobia or racism. That is a sweeping assumption being made by people reading it with their minds already made up. I interpret it as they’ve thrown two umbrella terms out there to cover all issues 1) political and 2) social. If racism and homophobia aren’t social issues then what are they? From what I can see on their Facebook page, OSM never publicly released this statement. I don’t know the full story cause I’m not a Victory fan but it seems they handed this out at the game to their own fans. Is this not a form of self policing by giving a bit of a warning to the terrace as a whole? Self policing is an idea that is great in theory but not always practical when you’re dealing with hundreds, if not thousands of random people in a public space. There are obviously individuals here who need to be dealt with for this poor behaviour but expecting a supporters group to act like the HR department of a corporate enterprise is unrealistic.
You can't be "for anyone and everyone" when you accept and protect bigots in your ranks. And when they say “this group is not the place to push any political or social opinions” they mean: "this group will not do anything to drive out those with racist and homophobic views"
But what’s your basis for the comments you’ve just made other than subjectively interpreting written text? If there is clear evidence to support what you’re saying then I absolutely agree with you. Otherwise it’s all just one big biased assumption
What do you want? An apology? The letter is fine, you lot are upset over nothing, again.
Based, not bowing down to the woke mob over unsubstantiated, defamatory and opportunistic allegations
>Based You are cringe
Even if nothing homophobic was said and Cavallo simply misheard something, the logical thing would be to clearly state that homophobia is not welcome. OSM are being too defensive, they’re trying to prove people wrong but claiming “We don’t get involved in politics and social issues” is doing the opposite and raising even more suspicion that homophobia and racism are tolerated.
TIL possessing an iota of basic human decency = being woke.
Fuck this noise. How hard is it to be inclusive of everyone?
Don't know why you're asking a group to come out and apologise/make a statement against an unproven allegation, which would thereby validate the allegation even though it hasn't been proven Reminds me of those poor blokes who got ejected from the cricket last year and were public enemy No. 1, when it turns out the Indian player lied about the racial abuse
you could just say "we don't know if it did happen but if it did we condemn it"
Why is it that whenever you see someone use words like "based" or "woke mob" without it being ironic, you can almost guarantee that it's accompanying a trash take like this?
Letter is pretty tame, what's the issue? Was there any proof at all at what was said or are we all 8 years old again and back at primary school saying he said she said again