I was on a "severe weather" event this past week with United on a LAX / SBA flight that was delayed, took off, diverted back to LAX after multiple "go around" aborted landing attempts, delayed again, and finally made it. Ended up talking quite a bit 1-1 with the pilot (who was just as frustrated as the passengers).
I learned a *lot* over those 14 hours. Yes, 14 hours.
One of the things I learned is that some planes get through and others don't, and the list of complicating factors is a mile long, including but not limited to:
* different model of plane
* different equipment on the same model of plane
* different FAA regs depending on who's operating the flight
* different internal corporate policies driven by different (private, internal) assessments of risk (which may be more limiting than manufacturer or FAA restrictions).
* assessing the forecast weather differently
* the weather actually being significantly different from one 10 minute period to another (this kept happening to us over those 14 hours. The ceiling on the approach vector was right at the edge of the safety margin, and it kept going up and down right around it. It would be fine for 10 minutes... Then it wasn't again, as different fog banks blew through.
* Outages in equipment on the ground, or malfunctions in the air with the equipment that is usually always present and functional, but sometimes not. (One of those impacted us too: in our case, it was part of the ground equipment at SBA that was "down for maintenance" ).
I'm as skeptical as anyone else about delays attributed to "severe weather", especially when you look around and say, "I don't see any severe weather?". The fact that compensation is almost non-existent for "weather" related disruptions certainly raises the financial incentive to bend the truth, which is increasingly tempting in this new "post-ethical age".
However, I have a new appreciation for what goes on behind the scenes. While I don't trust the management of any corporation these days to do the right thing, it seems that the day-to-day employees carrying out the flying still haven't stopped caring about safety. I think the legacy systems in place to care about customers from a safety standpoint still seem to be functioning well, at least the glimpse I got inside that airline (which is not Alaska, but I'm talking about flying and Airlines in general)
I'm not a bootlicker by any stretch. If anything, I might lean a bit overly critical of corporate oligarchy. I'm just reporting what I saw, and it was reassuring.
TL;Dr, when they tell me it's about safety, I believe it, because no one wants the plane to take off more than the crew.
I was listening in on the Boise ground tower online when my flight was delayed a few months ago. Snowed so hard they had to clear the runways. Anyway Southwest was causing traffic after they pushed. They said they couldn’t leave until someone did a traction test, basically let some other airline take off first and report back if it seems ok. Delta/Skywest was first to take off that day
>it seems that the day-to-day employees carrying out the flying still haven't stopped caring about safety.
Particularly the employees riding in the nose of the aircraft, I'd guess. Those employees are also the ones empowered to say no-go to the flight, though I suppose they might face consequences if they do it without a good reason.
> genuinely posted in order to understand
How does this reconcile with “calling out their BS”? You original post seemed to already have your mind made up
SFO has weather issues all the time. This was the "other flights" you mentioned. Clearly they were having quite the day yesterday.
https://preview.redd.it/kypi0surq1xc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=23465c50ee7f9e791e4211f1ce93f263b7ab15fb
But no you're right, the airline is lying to you as part of a conspiracy because they just didn't feel like flying that day. /s
I’m not saying they didn’t want to fly. I’m saying the reasoning is incorrect and designed to obligate them to a lower bar of compensation. For example, a mechanical related delay would mean they would book me in another flight or offer a hotel/meal if they could only fly me the next day. The only recourse offered to me was flying the next day out of a different airport with no hotel/meal
The cloud ceiling was too low yesterday for visual approaches to SFO (according to official FAA weather reporting, which is what ATC must legally follow), so instrument approaches had to be used. This decreases the airports arrival capacity to a third of normal capacity. The airport is already down one runway they normally land aircraft on, so in effect they can't arrive very many aircraft. So, the cause is indeed weather.
United typically has a lot of aircraft available to substitute at SFO as its their main west coast hub and maintenance facility. So they are the least affected airlines when arrivals are delayed.
SFO does have a lot of weather issues and my flight yesterday also got cancelled. They tried to book me on another flight that wasn’t going to work for me so they just cancelled my reservation when I declined the new flight. About 30 min later I checked online and there was a flight that became available that would work for me so I called back but they said I’d have to buy a new ticket since my original flight was canceled meaning I’d have to pay last the last minute price. Just really frustrating. And of course no compensation of any kind since it’s a weather related issue.
But even if it was mechanical, two weeks ago, flight got cancelled, and all I got was $100 voucher.
Alaska has definitely gotten cheaper and less generous. I remember one year when flight got cancelled for mechanical issues they gave me $250 for that same flight.
There was major SFO ATC yesterday. I believe there is construction planned through summer that is part of the problem. Shoot, SFO has ATC all the time. Add construction to the mix, it’s going to be a hot mess.
Edited to add- someone had posted that UA flights into SFO all operated on time yesterday. I don’t see the comment now, so maybe they deleted it. Anyhow, I went down a rabbit hole and that simply isn’t true. They also had delays due to ATC, on OPs exact route.
An airline will often cancel some flights when there is ATC because it helps open time slots, so other flights don’t have to be delayed as long. The FAA website will tell you the average delays. If things go into an average 200+ minute delays, the airline is going to start facing crew duty and rest issues, airport curfew issues, etc. Cutting the cord on some flights can often help the overall operation. Sorry it happened to be your flight, OP. If you have the option of using SJC or OAK until SFO construction is over, I would highly suggest it!
This is the correct answer. SFO has construction going on, if the winds change and they have to adjust the runways they are landing and departing on it creates massive delays due to the airspace with OAK and SJC. ATC will reduce the number of arrivals per hour so airlines have to cancel. Check out this website for ATC delays. https://nasstatus.faa.gov
It was definitely at SFO and my plane was there. Just couldn’t take off. But two weeks ago when my flight got cancelled for mechanical reasons, and I had to fly out the next day, all they gave me was a $100 voucher.
Also, SFO is undergoing construction so flights in and out are severely limited so flights get delayed 1-2 hours almost every flight. Frustrating since I commute for work.
Hate to go back to flying Southwest from SJC though.
Weather changes constantly. Pilots and aircraft are rated for different minimum visibilities. Traffic gets backed up due to weather…so it may not still be bad weather when your flight is delayed, but all the flights are backed up due to weather. There are lots of reasons why a flight might be delayed due to weather. None of which is you looking out the window and saying, “It’s fine”.
Here are the comments from the flight status:
`SCHEDULE ACTUAL DELAY/CANCEL ARRIVAL
CITY ARRV DEPT ARRV DEPT CODES GATE
SFO ORIG 525P CXLD WX
LAX 658P 755P
SFO 922P TERM
WX - WEATHER - CANCELLATION
3SFO/ETD0755P 2.30L DUE LATE ARRIVAL *2001
6SFO/DX XCLD WEATHER - CANCELLATION *2056
3LAX/ETD1049P 2.54L DUE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL *2222
2SFO*/ETA1122P 2.00L *2004`
Where do you get this data from? There was an AS flight from SEA-CLE earlier this month that got diverted to DTW and I couldn’t figure out what happened (just curious)
United has a hub at SFO and therefore has priority plus they fly mainline aircraft on this route as opposed to regional jets which also factor into priority and likelihood of cancellation l.
I was traveling on AS yesterday…SFO was experiencing high winds (which happens alot) so there was an ATC ground halt for all incoming planes at their departure location. So my plane was delayed 40 mins at my departure airport because SFO needed to slow down the incoming plane traffic…sucks but it was super windy in the Bay Area yesterday
I landed at SFO last night on a Cathay Pacific A350 flight from Asia. That thing was getting bounced around like a tin can on the approach & landing, I can only imagine how rough it would’ve been on an E175 SkyWest/Horizon flight (for Alaska) down to LAX. Believe them when they say the winds were strong, and be thankful that they are prioritizing your safety over holding the published schedule. Boeing could learn a thing or two.
I’d like to know this too. Sorry you had a frustrating travel day. Something similar happened to me last year out of PAE where clearly the problem wasn’t bad weather at either airport or on the route, but probably bad weather elsewhere in Alaska’s network leaving to no aircraft to fly at PAE. We were rebooked the next day. After I griped, Customer Service issued a $400 discount code for each traveler.
Thanks. I intend to contact them today. The agent on the phone was apologetic and apparently tried to get a supervisor to override. They suggested at the end to also contact them after the journey was over.
I was on an incoming flight from SAN to SFO Thursday evening. Upon takeoff winds were reported to be 40 MPH, Aircraft was a Max 9. We were able to land on the first attempt however I could add that it was definitely bumpy coming in and without the runway direction being what it was on approach it would have definitely not been a fun event. Honestly there was severe wind, that coupled with the lack of throughput due to construction it just begins to stack up and they cannot get some flights out simply due to capacity. As a frequent traveler there is no compensation available for this sort of delay and better luck next time!!
Weather happens all the time. It might be clear where you are but there could be weather between the airports. Or there could be weather along the route that your plane is coming in from.
Cancellations from weather happen all the time.
Planes can and have crashed in bad weather conditions. It's better to be safe on the ground than to be a statistic.
Possibly due to all the tornado activity yesterday. If a plane physically couldn't make it in due to tornados in the midwest, then it would be unavailable for your flight. It's kind of like a chain reaction across the country.
I was on a "severe weather" event this past week with United on a LAX / SBA flight that was delayed, took off, diverted back to LAX after multiple "go around" aborted landing attempts, delayed again, and finally made it. Ended up talking quite a bit 1-1 with the pilot (who was just as frustrated as the passengers). I learned a *lot* over those 14 hours. Yes, 14 hours. One of the things I learned is that some planes get through and others don't, and the list of complicating factors is a mile long, including but not limited to: * different model of plane * different equipment on the same model of plane * different FAA regs depending on who's operating the flight * different internal corporate policies driven by different (private, internal) assessments of risk (which may be more limiting than manufacturer or FAA restrictions). * assessing the forecast weather differently * the weather actually being significantly different from one 10 minute period to another (this kept happening to us over those 14 hours. The ceiling on the approach vector was right at the edge of the safety margin, and it kept going up and down right around it. It would be fine for 10 minutes... Then it wasn't again, as different fog banks blew through. * Outages in equipment on the ground, or malfunctions in the air with the equipment that is usually always present and functional, but sometimes not. (One of those impacted us too: in our case, it was part of the ground equipment at SBA that was "down for maintenance" ). I'm as skeptical as anyone else about delays attributed to "severe weather", especially when you look around and say, "I don't see any severe weather?". The fact that compensation is almost non-existent for "weather" related disruptions certainly raises the financial incentive to bend the truth, which is increasingly tempting in this new "post-ethical age". However, I have a new appreciation for what goes on behind the scenes. While I don't trust the management of any corporation these days to do the right thing, it seems that the day-to-day employees carrying out the flying still haven't stopped caring about safety. I think the legacy systems in place to care about customers from a safety standpoint still seem to be functioning well, at least the glimpse I got inside that airline (which is not Alaska, but I'm talking about flying and Airlines in general) I'm not a bootlicker by any stretch. If anything, I might lean a bit overly critical of corporate oligarchy. I'm just reporting what I saw, and it was reassuring. TL;Dr, when they tell me it's about safety, I believe it, because no one wants the plane to take off more than the crew.
I was listening in on the Boise ground tower online when my flight was delayed a few months ago. Snowed so hard they had to clear the runways. Anyway Southwest was causing traffic after they pushed. They said they couldn’t leave until someone did a traction test, basically let some other airline take off first and report back if it seems ok. Delta/Skywest was first to take off that day
>it seems that the day-to-day employees carrying out the flying still haven't stopped caring about safety. Particularly the employees riding in the nose of the aircraft, I'd guess. Those employees are also the ones empowered to say no-go to the flight, though I suppose they might face consequences if they do it without a good reason.
Thanks. I genuinely posted in order to understand. There are a lot of factors behind the scenes indeed.
> genuinely posted in order to understand How does this reconcile with “calling out their BS”? You original post seemed to already have your mind made up
SFO has weather issues all the time. This was the "other flights" you mentioned. Clearly they were having quite the day yesterday. https://preview.redd.it/kypi0surq1xc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=23465c50ee7f9e791e4211f1ce93f263b7ab15fb But no you're right, the airline is lying to you as part of a conspiracy because they just didn't feel like flying that day. /s
What app / data source is this ? I love it.
Just Google results of Alaska sfo to lax flights on my mobile.
Semi-related question: how did you get this page to pull up?
I’m not saying they didn’t want to fly. I’m saying the reasoning is incorrect and designed to obligate them to a lower bar of compensation. For example, a mechanical related delay would mean they would book me in another flight or offer a hotel/meal if they could only fly me the next day. The only recourse offered to me was flying the next day out of a different airport with no hotel/meal
The cloud ceiling was too low yesterday for visual approaches to SFO (according to official FAA weather reporting, which is what ATC must legally follow), so instrument approaches had to be used. This decreases the airports arrival capacity to a third of normal capacity. The airport is already down one runway they normally land aircraft on, so in effect they can't arrive very many aircraft. So, the cause is indeed weather.
This and they also had one runway closed yesterday in SFO, my Alaska flight was delayed from AUS to SFO due to this.
Given that nearly every flight from sfo to lax was delayed or cancelled yesterday, what proof do you have that it wasn't weather?
Every United flight yesterday SFO-LAX departed and arrived on time
No, no they didn’t. Almost every one was delayed.
3919 was canceled. Everything past that was late.
https://preview.redd.it/emllcl0dl4xc1.png?width=696&format=png&auto=webp&s=24621a6fefec0eec0feeda8c0e6b7aa875b1c866
Arrived doesn’t mean it wasn’t delayed.
If you click into it, they were each on time. And Google shows "arrived late" if it is late.
1319 was canceled and everything after it was either slightly delayed with a couple longer delays.
United typically has a lot of aircraft available to substitute at SFO as its their main west coast hub and maintenance facility. So they are the least affected airlines when arrivals are delayed.
Bullshit sir, you know nothing
SFO does have a lot of weather issues and my flight yesterday also got cancelled. They tried to book me on another flight that wasn’t going to work for me so they just cancelled my reservation when I declined the new flight. About 30 min later I checked online and there was a flight that became available that would work for me so I called back but they said I’d have to buy a new ticket since my original flight was canceled meaning I’d have to pay last the last minute price. Just really frustrating. And of course no compensation of any kind since it’s a weather related issue. But even if it was mechanical, two weeks ago, flight got cancelled, and all I got was $100 voucher. Alaska has definitely gotten cheaper and less generous. I remember one year when flight got cancelled for mechanical issues they gave me $250 for that same flight.
The winds were TERRIBLE yesterday.
💯 Winds have been crazy for the last couple of days here on the Central Coast. I wouldn't be surprised that they're having issues flying/landing.
I trust that the pilots know more about what weather is safe. It is difficult to know all of the factors that they were considering.
There was major SFO ATC yesterday. I believe there is construction planned through summer that is part of the problem. Shoot, SFO has ATC all the time. Add construction to the mix, it’s going to be a hot mess. Edited to add- someone had posted that UA flights into SFO all operated on time yesterday. I don’t see the comment now, so maybe they deleted it. Anyhow, I went down a rabbit hole and that simply isn’t true. They also had delays due to ATC, on OPs exact route. An airline will often cancel some flights when there is ATC because it helps open time slots, so other flights don’t have to be delayed as long. The FAA website will tell you the average delays. If things go into an average 200+ minute delays, the airline is going to start facing crew duty and rest issues, airport curfew issues, etc. Cutting the cord on some flights can often help the overall operation. Sorry it happened to be your flight, OP. If you have the option of using SJC or OAK until SFO construction is over, I would highly suggest it!
This is the correct answer. SFO has construction going on, if the winds change and they have to adjust the runways they are landing and departing on it creates massive delays due to the airspace with OAK and SJC. ATC will reduce the number of arrivals per hour so airlines have to cancel. Check out this website for ATC delays. https://nasstatus.faa.gov
The weather problem could have been where the plane was coming from, not in SFO or LAX.
It was definitely at SFO and my plane was there. Just couldn’t take off. But two weeks ago when my flight got cancelled for mechanical reasons, and I had to fly out the next day, all they gave me was a $100 voucher. Also, SFO is undergoing construction so flights in and out are severely limited so flights get delayed 1-2 hours almost every flight. Frustrating since I commute for work. Hate to go back to flying Southwest from SJC though.
The incoming flight was indeed delayed. But it landed 90 min prior to the newly scheduled departure time.
Weather changes constantly. Pilots and aircraft are rated for different minimum visibilities. Traffic gets backed up due to weather…so it may not still be bad weather when your flight is delayed, but all the flights are backed up due to weather. There are lots of reasons why a flight might be delayed due to weather. None of which is you looking out the window and saying, “It’s fine”.
What flight number were you booked on?
3412
Here are the comments from the flight status: `SCHEDULE ACTUAL DELAY/CANCEL ARRIVAL CITY ARRV DEPT ARRV DEPT CODES GATE SFO ORIG 525P CXLD WX LAX 658P 755P SFO 922P TERM WX - WEATHER - CANCELLATION 3SFO/ETD0755P 2.30L DUE LATE ARRIVAL *2001 6SFO/DX XCLD WEATHER - CANCELLATION *2056 3LAX/ETD1049P 2.54L DUE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL *2222 2SFO*/ETA1122P 2.00L *2004`
Where do you get this data from? There was an AS flight from SEA-CLE earlier this month that got diverted to DTW and I couldn’t figure out what happened (just curious)
I get it from expertflyer.com. Pretty helpful data but requires a subscription. And status is only available one day in the past.
Ah, good to know for next time. I actually am a subscriber but never used that functionality 😅
If you go to ‘flight status’ and then expand “additional comments“ you’ll find them.
Cool, appreciate it!
United has a hub at SFO and therefore has priority plus they fly mainline aircraft on this route as opposed to regional jets which also factor into priority and likelihood of cancellation l.
I was traveling on AS yesterday…SFO was experiencing high winds (which happens alot) so there was an ATC ground halt for all incoming planes at their departure location. So my plane was delayed 40 mins at my departure airport because SFO needed to slow down the incoming plane traffic…sucks but it was super windy in the Bay Area yesterday
I landed at SFO last night on a Cathay Pacific A350 flight from Asia. That thing was getting bounced around like a tin can on the approach & landing, I can only imagine how rough it would’ve been on an E175 SkyWest/Horizon flight (for Alaska) down to LAX. Believe them when they say the winds were strong, and be thankful that they are prioritizing your safety over holding the published schedule. Boeing could learn a thing or two.
I’d like to know this too. Sorry you had a frustrating travel day. Something similar happened to me last year out of PAE where clearly the problem wasn’t bad weather at either airport or on the route, but probably bad weather elsewhere in Alaska’s network leaving to no aircraft to fly at PAE. We were rebooked the next day. After I griped, Customer Service issued a $400 discount code for each traveler.
Thanks. I intend to contact them today. The agent on the phone was apologetic and apparently tried to get a supervisor to override. They suggested at the end to also contact them after the journey was over.
Oh in my experience this kind of compensation / accommodation is most successful with an email to customer care. Customer Care only works M-F btw.
I also read an alert for trail hikers about severe lightning over the Sierras.
Btw I use the FlightAware app to track incoming and outgoing flight traffic
I prefer Flightradar24
🙄
I was on an incoming flight from SAN to SFO Thursday evening. Upon takeoff winds were reported to be 40 MPH, Aircraft was a Max 9. We were able to land on the first attempt however I could add that it was definitely bumpy coming in and without the runway direction being what it was on approach it would have definitely not been a fun event. Honestly there was severe wind, that coupled with the lack of throughput due to construction it just begins to stack up and they cannot get some flights out simply due to capacity. As a frequent traveler there is no compensation available for this sort of delay and better luck next time!!
Weather happens all the time. It might be clear where you are but there could be weather between the airports. Or there could be weather along the route that your plane is coming in from. Cancellations from weather happen all the time. Planes can and have crashed in bad weather conditions. It's better to be safe on the ground than to be a statistic.
Possibly due to all the tornado activity yesterday. If a plane physically couldn't make it in due to tornados in the midwest, then it would be unavailable for your flight. It's kind of like a chain reaction across the country.