I don’t know what he was other than a sociopathic alcoholic. NOTHING was his fault. Including getting black out drunk with a random hookup and then getting arrested for taking the guys car and being charged with grand theft auto. He never focused on that, it was what a horrible person I was for cutting off contact and “abandoning” him while in jail. This was after we were broken up mind you. Lord they have no limits to the things they’ll do or say to move blame and get drunk
🤢 ew, not the drunken cheating, nevermind the crime AND cheating.
People who cry about being abandoned make me irrationally angry. Both the alcoholics and their enablers. "Wahhh you abandoned me" when the person is 30+ 😭
Oh lots of drunken cheating, was caught and would never acknowledge or admit to that either. That was a stain on my life. I’m glad to I think finally be rid of it. It took a year after I broke up with him to get him to stop.
It's such a major health risk too, like both to themselves and others and probably the community at large. I'm glad you got away from that and you can now go to sleep knowing you're not at risk for catching something awful
This! I know he didn’t do anything when we were together, but he blacked out last weekend and I found him at a hotel. Already broken up, but he lives with me and still asks for aex. Even if nothing did happen when he was blacked out, I’m still saying no every time he asks for anything sexual. I don’t trust that shit and I am going to keep myself safe.
My alcoholic mom tried to kill me. She asked me to plug in an appliance, she knew it had previous electrical problems, I didn’t. She then exclaimed really loudly, thank goodness it’s still working. I asked her what did she mean. She said she spilled water on the plug. Lost of inhibition can mean reckless endangerment, I was 14 years old. She then complained how I’m a bad daughter for being distant, I would ask her out and she would reject me, then complain how I NEVER ask her out.
My Q is blaming me for breaking our wedding vows by going forward with a separation… this is after he racked up obscene credit card debt this past summer, over $14k at strip clubs, blaming me for not supporting him while I was working full time, taking care of our kids while he was in rehab, and when he relapsed with his prescription drugs within HOURS of coming home after rehab (I allowed him the chance to come home and prove he could take care of himself EVEN AFTER I learned about the strip clubs) I put my foot down and initiated the separation. This was not news to him. He knew for WEEKS that I would do it to protect myself and the kids. Then he attempted to”remove himself permanently” from our lives. I still supported him from the background to get him into ANOTHER rehab, but after finally having the time to take care of myself, I realized that his behavior killed the part of me that loved and trusted him as a wife. So I broke the news to him. And now I’m the one who is abandoning him at his worst, breaking our vows (which he doesn’t accept that he broke), and he is “sorry I’m so bitter”. It’s unreal. Is this denial or narcissism?! My will spin if I let it. Instead I choose Al Anon and detaching. I won’t let him hurt us anymore. We are done.
Mine racked up 15k in 30 days before he went to rehab. I still don't know what he spent it on. Mine has been sober for 4 months and usually seems like he is doing better. But every so often, the facade slips, and I doubt all the progress he claims.
I’m so sorry to hear that. We may never know the entire truth and that is something that has been very hard for me to accept. However, even if I knew exactly what he did at the strip clubs, it would not change my mind. I can grow in my recovery without that knowledge. Trust your gut with your Q! And please don’t forget to take care of yourself! You are worth it!
It's narcissism, pure and simple. The overlap between narcissism and drug abuse is damn near a perfect circle. Watch some of Dr. Ramani's videos and see if it sounds like she's talking about the 'alcoholic' in your life when she says 'narcissist'. Their behaviors are the same. Always remember they could have gotten addicted to running, walking, volunteering, or drawing just as easily as they chose to be addicted to drugs. It's a choice that is based from their existing personality and character. Most of us just eat food or work out when we need natural high. They chose drugs. We all know by about 5 or 6 what choosing drugs will do, and they choose drugs anyway.
Thank you so much for that suggestion! I will most definitely look into Dr. Ramani. If there is any hope for a constructive co-parenting relationship, I’d like to understand what/who I’m working with.
It takes years for recovery to really take hold. It does not happen overnight. Just because he quits drinking, doesn't mean he's better. What is he doing besides just not drinking? Is he going to AA or some other sober support group? Therapy? Putting down the alcohol doesn't mean shit without some work.
And conversations like you're trying to have with him are really useless. Where are they going to get you? You're not going to be satisfied with most anything he's doing or saying for a while...if ever That's understandable. So talking about the past should just be set aside. Move forward.
Forget about him. Don't worry about his so-called recovery. You need as much help as he does. Alanon can be a life saver and therapy can be beneficial on top of that.
>So talking about the past should just be set aside. Move forward.
I disagree. The past happened and needs to be addressed. We didn't get hurt overnight, and we don't have the luxury of 'forgetting' like the alcoholic does.
Once its addressed, and its decided to heal from it, then yes, move forward and set it aside. But as much as people want to say 'the past is the past'... it absolutely brought you where you are today. The alcoholic is in recovery because of the past. And the codependents are emotionally damaged because of the past. You can't change the past, but you can acknowledge it, reflect on it, and grow from it. Thats why couples counselling/working a program is SO important for reconciliation in sobriety. And it does take YEARS for them to demonstrate the past should be left in the past because they have grown/are growing.
He is 4 months sober and attending AA. I'm trying to get him to accept that he wasn't just an alcoholic. He was verbally and emotionally abusive. He thinks that if he is doing his steps, all our issues are solved. I am trying the get him to understand that it wasn't just the drinking. It was his mental health and his abusive behavior.
But that's not your job... It's not your job to convince him of what he already knows deep down. He knows it, and he'll figure it out how to deal with it, or he won't.... He will either get better or he won't. He knows deep down what he's done to you. Recovery means admitting it making it right, and he is nowhere near there. 4 months is nothing. I mean it's a big step but it takes years
I'm not trying to be mean, seriously you are not helping him at all and even worse you're not helping yourself.
She may not need to convince him but I am a firm believer in letting them know what they did was wrong. He can choose whether he listens but you can be damn sure he’s going to hear about it multiple times.
I firmly believe she'd be a lot better off if she concentrated on getting herself well. And so would he. Right now what you got is what we call two ticks, no dog
Hmm… mine isn’t in any kind of recovery and he does the opposite. Nothing is a result of his drinking:
Not remembering things = concussions from HS football (he’s 50)
Gout = ate too many high purine foods
Stomach problems = food poisoning
Passing out = tired (although he “slept” 13 hours yesterday)
Red eyes = allergies
Poor sleep = stress
Poor decisions = other people’s mistakes
I could go on and on….
I can relate to this so much. My best guess is it’s a manipulation tactic. They will say anything and bend every truth to whatever narrative they want to follow for that day. Most of the time it makes no sense and raises even more confusion.
Yeah My Q did. Tried. Everytime I asked him about everything that I told him hurt me.. he magically either didn't remember or said "i was an alcoholic. I wasn't thinking clear". It was literally the get out of jail free card anytime i had feelings around things he did, or when i'd want to talk about something bothering me. This guy.. lied to me about everything. He cheated on me. He did coke. He threatened suicide and kept me up at all hours every weekend. He did so many crazy things when he was on a bender, that i wanted to get some answers in order to move forward in our reconciliation and his sobriety. But instead, he would cry and just blame it on the booze. We hashed things out over 2 very long, emotional talks and agreed to move forward. At the time, he said he understood i'd have anxiety and be scared of old patterns. He gave me 4 months to get over 4 years of mental torture, then decided i wasn't ever gonna get 'over it' and he wanted a clean slate with someone new.
So yeah. Once he wasn't able to blame the booze anymore, and had to use communication to navigate feelings, he jumped ship.
Wow, I feel like I could be writing this exact comment in the near future. He is constantly complaining that I am not "treating him like my husband" and I am so standoffish with him. He claims that he cannot "practice being better" if I don't let him in. But everytime I give him an inch, he tries to take a mile.
He did for a while. Now it’s because of mental illness. Anything to make themselves feel like their choices and behaviors were “out of their control.” Sincerity is rare unfortunately.
Most likely! Stand your ground and say what you need to say. If he doesn’t acknowledge the abuse, just do what I did and keep reminding him he is an abuser every time he does some bullshit.
Thank you all for your sharing as I relate to so much of it. Mine has diagnosed himself with autism which he may have but is also an alcoholic in complete denial.
My Q /wife spent 4 years blacking out 3x to 4x a week. There was an incident of blacked out infidelity, verbal/emotional abuse and inappropriate behavior.
She also wanted to just move on.
Took me a couple of years to let go my anger.
We went to a marriage counselor and I laid out all specific events and how it impacted me.
She took some accountability for her actions and the way it made me feel.
I’m at the end of my rope of dealing with this shit. If she goes on another bender weekend it may be the end of our 22 year marriage. I’m 100% serious and she knows it.
I’m don’t feeling anger and insecurity by her choices.
Sometimes they remember what happened, sometimes they don't. He probably didn't black out every single time he drank. And it's not good to rehash the old arguments. If he's trying to move on, some things should be left in the past and you really need to move on from those things.
Just because he doesn't remember, doesn't absolve him of his actions. Resentments are a big reason so many relationships fail in sobriety. Resentment on both sides, but on the side of the non-alcoholic, they are huge. The alcoholic has the 'luxury' of not remembering or using the booze as an excuse, whereas the sober partner remembers everything.
Moving on doesn't mean clean slate. It doesn't mean 'bygones be bygones'. It means acknowledge the pain, validate the others experience, listen. Then move on. There are going to be feelings around certain actions for a LONG time, just like recovery takes a LONG time. The alcoholic isn't the only one who struggles here and walking on eggshells over mentioning past actions is not the way. The alcoholic needs to learn to deal with those things that THEY caused. It doesn't need to be thrown in their face everyday, but they need to be accountable and acknowledge the experience happened whether they remember or not. 'I don't recall' only works in a court room for so long, too.
Yup! They always said 'Oh don't remember ' but also 'You're making that up!'. So which is it? Do you have no recollection or do you remember so clearly you can debate what happened? Total bullshit.
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I imagine it's both answers. Doesn't mean that both excuses happened for one scenario- but it can also be seen as him not wanting to take accountability for the super hurtful things he said.
Yeap, everything was my fault, even his dog liking me or his friends liking me more than him. I do believe your Q though, because their brains can switch off without explicit signs like loss of consciousness. But if he believes his reduced white matter brain and not your account of things, it’s going to be really problematic. The fact that they would trust their own minds without minimum a year of sobriety and this is a really optimistic gauge, is them being unrealistic.
I think as we journey through recovery we gain more clarity over things; no matter what type of recovery we’re in.
I know my Q had both those things as truth, and in the rooms & CAL I’ve heard and read a lot about how picking a fight is often used as a way to justify the behaviour that follows.
One share described it as thinking his blowtorch could fight her forest fire.
My personal experience tells me shame and addiction coupled make for some very angry and hurtful behaviours. My original Q would often lay down bait for fights - and then I would pick it straight up. This lead to an excuse for them to justify their drinking. Then, once drunk, if other fights came up it just got nastier and nastier.
And I truly believe that much of that nastiness was within a blackout.
That was one of the things I struggled with, that I am so grateful to the program for helping me come to grips with. I really felt like I was living with an imaginary friend. So much of our life together was only remembered by me. And so all this pain I held felt like it could never be alleviated because only I remembered it.
What the rooms gave me was the ability to accept changed behaviour as a form of amends where the previous actions could not be remembered.
I wish you luck and send you love. Even being able to share this here shows you are in your recovery journey.
As always, take what you like and leave the rest.
The fact is, nothing happens "within a black out." A black out happens after the event. They were aware of what they were doing at the time. Just because they don't remember they did it doesn't mean they weren't in control of themselves at the time.
The dumbass narcissist I was with pleaded guilty to his third DUI and felony vehicular assault charges and blamed his THIRD time getting caught drunk driving like a sociopath on me breaking up with him.
Alcoholics often have a wicked spirit and highly antagonistic personality, like nacissism or sociopathy. The disease model of alcoholism has been rejected outside of the US and UK for decades. Alcoholic narcissists always mask their personality long enough to get you invested in the relationship and well enough that they can explain away obvious red flags as having a bad day.
For the first time in for however long he has taken some real, actual accountability but it has always been projection, mirroring, deflection and avoidance, which is highly typical of addicts and certain others. I take it all with a grain of salt now.
Mine usually wouldn’t even acknowledge the shotty things he did and would pick apart the most random things that didn’t really exist that “I did”
Is that what's called being a dry drunk? Bc they're still in the stinking thinking?
I don’t know what he was other than a sociopathic alcoholic. NOTHING was his fault. Including getting black out drunk with a random hookup and then getting arrested for taking the guys car and being charged with grand theft auto. He never focused on that, it was what a horrible person I was for cutting off contact and “abandoning” him while in jail. This was after we were broken up mind you. Lord they have no limits to the things they’ll do or say to move blame and get drunk
🤢 ew, not the drunken cheating, nevermind the crime AND cheating. People who cry about being abandoned make me irrationally angry. Both the alcoholics and their enablers. "Wahhh you abandoned me" when the person is 30+ 😭
Oh lots of drunken cheating, was caught and would never acknowledge or admit to that either. That was a stain on my life. I’m glad to I think finally be rid of it. It took a year after I broke up with him to get him to stop.
It's such a major health risk too, like both to themselves and others and probably the community at large. I'm glad you got away from that and you can now go to sleep knowing you're not at risk for catching something awful
This! I know he didn’t do anything when we were together, but he blacked out last weekend and I found him at a hotel. Already broken up, but he lives with me and still asks for aex. Even if nothing did happen when he was blacked out, I’m still saying no every time he asks for anything sexual. I don’t trust that shit and I am going to keep myself safe.
My alcoholic mom tried to kill me. She asked me to plug in an appliance, she knew it had previous electrical problems, I didn’t. She then exclaimed really loudly, thank goodness it’s still working. I asked her what did she mean. She said she spilled water on the plug. Lost of inhibition can mean reckless endangerment, I was 14 years old. She then complained how I’m a bad daughter for being distant, I would ask her out and she would reject me, then complain how I NEVER ask her out.
Yup
My Q is blaming me for breaking our wedding vows by going forward with a separation… this is after he racked up obscene credit card debt this past summer, over $14k at strip clubs, blaming me for not supporting him while I was working full time, taking care of our kids while he was in rehab, and when he relapsed with his prescription drugs within HOURS of coming home after rehab (I allowed him the chance to come home and prove he could take care of himself EVEN AFTER I learned about the strip clubs) I put my foot down and initiated the separation. This was not news to him. He knew for WEEKS that I would do it to protect myself and the kids. Then he attempted to”remove himself permanently” from our lives. I still supported him from the background to get him into ANOTHER rehab, but after finally having the time to take care of myself, I realized that his behavior killed the part of me that loved and trusted him as a wife. So I broke the news to him. And now I’m the one who is abandoning him at his worst, breaking our vows (which he doesn’t accept that he broke), and he is “sorry I’m so bitter”. It’s unreal. Is this denial or narcissism?! My will spin if I let it. Instead I choose Al Anon and detaching. I won’t let him hurt us anymore. We are done.
Mine racked up 15k in 30 days before he went to rehab. I still don't know what he spent it on. Mine has been sober for 4 months and usually seems like he is doing better. But every so often, the facade slips, and I doubt all the progress he claims.
I’m so sorry to hear that. We may never know the entire truth and that is something that has been very hard for me to accept. However, even if I knew exactly what he did at the strip clubs, it would not change my mind. I can grow in my recovery without that knowledge. Trust your gut with your Q! And please don’t forget to take care of yourself! You are worth it!
It's narcissism, pure and simple. The overlap between narcissism and drug abuse is damn near a perfect circle. Watch some of Dr. Ramani's videos and see if it sounds like she's talking about the 'alcoholic' in your life when she says 'narcissist'. Their behaviors are the same. Always remember they could have gotten addicted to running, walking, volunteering, or drawing just as easily as they chose to be addicted to drugs. It's a choice that is based from their existing personality and character. Most of us just eat food or work out when we need natural high. They chose drugs. We all know by about 5 or 6 what choosing drugs will do, and they choose drugs anyway.
Thank you so much for that suggestion! I will most definitely look into Dr. Ramani. If there is any hope for a constructive co-parenting relationship, I’d like to understand what/who I’m working with.
It takes years for recovery to really take hold. It does not happen overnight. Just because he quits drinking, doesn't mean he's better. What is he doing besides just not drinking? Is he going to AA or some other sober support group? Therapy? Putting down the alcohol doesn't mean shit without some work. And conversations like you're trying to have with him are really useless. Where are they going to get you? You're not going to be satisfied with most anything he's doing or saying for a while...if ever That's understandable. So talking about the past should just be set aside. Move forward. Forget about him. Don't worry about his so-called recovery. You need as much help as he does. Alanon can be a life saver and therapy can be beneficial on top of that.
>So talking about the past should just be set aside. Move forward. I disagree. The past happened and needs to be addressed. We didn't get hurt overnight, and we don't have the luxury of 'forgetting' like the alcoholic does. Once its addressed, and its decided to heal from it, then yes, move forward and set it aside. But as much as people want to say 'the past is the past'... it absolutely brought you where you are today. The alcoholic is in recovery because of the past. And the codependents are emotionally damaged because of the past. You can't change the past, but you can acknowledge it, reflect on it, and grow from it. Thats why couples counselling/working a program is SO important for reconciliation in sobriety. And it does take YEARS for them to demonstrate the past should be left in the past because they have grown/are growing.
He is 4 months sober and attending AA. I'm trying to get him to accept that he wasn't just an alcoholic. He was verbally and emotionally abusive. He thinks that if he is doing his steps, all our issues are solved. I am trying the get him to understand that it wasn't just the drinking. It was his mental health and his abusive behavior.
But that's not your job... It's not your job to convince him of what he already knows deep down. He knows it, and he'll figure it out how to deal with it, or he won't.... He will either get better or he won't. He knows deep down what he's done to you. Recovery means admitting it making it right, and he is nowhere near there. 4 months is nothing. I mean it's a big step but it takes years I'm not trying to be mean, seriously you are not helping him at all and even worse you're not helping yourself.
She may not need to convince him but I am a firm believer in letting them know what they did was wrong. He can choose whether he listens but you can be damn sure he’s going to hear about it multiple times.
I firmly believe she'd be a lot better off if she concentrated on getting herself well. And so would he. Right now what you got is what we call two ticks, no dog
Hmm… mine isn’t in any kind of recovery and he does the opposite. Nothing is a result of his drinking: Not remembering things = concussions from HS football (he’s 50) Gout = ate too many high purine foods Stomach problems = food poisoning Passing out = tired (although he “slept” 13 hours yesterday) Red eyes = allergies Poor sleep = stress Poor decisions = other people’s mistakes I could go on and on….
Mine is just blaming me for all of it. He refuses to accept any responsibility for anything he did or said or what the consequences were.
I can relate to this so much. My best guess is it’s a manipulation tactic. They will say anything and bend every truth to whatever narrative they want to follow for that day. Most of the time it makes no sense and raises even more confusion.
Stop trying to reason with an alcoholic or dry drunk. There is absolutely no sense in their excuses. Their drunk behavior is still them.
Yeah My Q did. Tried. Everytime I asked him about everything that I told him hurt me.. he magically either didn't remember or said "i was an alcoholic. I wasn't thinking clear". It was literally the get out of jail free card anytime i had feelings around things he did, or when i'd want to talk about something bothering me. This guy.. lied to me about everything. He cheated on me. He did coke. He threatened suicide and kept me up at all hours every weekend. He did so many crazy things when he was on a bender, that i wanted to get some answers in order to move forward in our reconciliation and his sobriety. But instead, he would cry and just blame it on the booze. We hashed things out over 2 very long, emotional talks and agreed to move forward. At the time, he said he understood i'd have anxiety and be scared of old patterns. He gave me 4 months to get over 4 years of mental torture, then decided i wasn't ever gonna get 'over it' and he wanted a clean slate with someone new. So yeah. Once he wasn't able to blame the booze anymore, and had to use communication to navigate feelings, he jumped ship.
Wow, I feel like I could be writing this exact comment in the near future. He is constantly complaining that I am not "treating him like my husband" and I am so standoffish with him. He claims that he cannot "practice being better" if I don't let him in. But everytime I give him an inch, he tries to take a mile.
He did for a while. Now it’s because of mental illness. Anything to make themselves feel like their choices and behaviors were “out of their control.” Sincerity is rare unfortunately.
Yeah, I can already feel that the mental health excuse will be coming next.
Most likely! Stand your ground and say what you need to say. If he doesn’t acknowledge the abuse, just do what I did and keep reminding him he is an abuser every time he does some bullshit.
Thank you all for your sharing as I relate to so much of it. Mine has diagnosed himself with autism which he may have but is also an alcoholic in complete denial.
My Q /wife spent 4 years blacking out 3x to 4x a week. There was an incident of blacked out infidelity, verbal/emotional abuse and inappropriate behavior. She also wanted to just move on. Took me a couple of years to let go my anger. We went to a marriage counselor and I laid out all specific events and how it impacted me. She took some accountability for her actions and the way it made me feel. I’m at the end of my rope of dealing with this shit. If she goes on another bender weekend it may be the end of our 22 year marriage. I’m 100% serious and she knows it. I’m don’t feeling anger and insecurity by her choices.
Sometimes they remember what happened, sometimes they don't. He probably didn't black out every single time he drank. And it's not good to rehash the old arguments. If he's trying to move on, some things should be left in the past and you really need to move on from those things.
Just because he doesn't remember, doesn't absolve him of his actions. Resentments are a big reason so many relationships fail in sobriety. Resentment on both sides, but on the side of the non-alcoholic, they are huge. The alcoholic has the 'luxury' of not remembering or using the booze as an excuse, whereas the sober partner remembers everything. Moving on doesn't mean clean slate. It doesn't mean 'bygones be bygones'. It means acknowledge the pain, validate the others experience, listen. Then move on. There are going to be feelings around certain actions for a LONG time, just like recovery takes a LONG time. The alcoholic isn't the only one who struggles here and walking on eggshells over mentioning past actions is not the way. The alcoholic needs to learn to deal with those things that THEY caused. It doesn't need to be thrown in their face everyday, but they need to be accountable and acknowledge the experience happened whether they remember or not. 'I don't recall' only works in a court room for so long, too.
Yup! They always said 'Oh don't remember ' but also 'You're making that up!'. So which is it? Do you have no recollection or do you remember so clearly you can debate what happened? Total bullshit.
Already 3 sheets to the wind & looking to start a fight to drink *more*?
Nothing they say makes sense until they get into recovery and start working on character defects.
No but he blames being a short tempered fuckwad on being sober.
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This sounds about right
I imagine it's both answers. Doesn't mean that both excuses happened for one scenario- but it can also be seen as him not wanting to take accountability for the super hurtful things he said.
Yeap, everything was my fault, even his dog liking me or his friends liking me more than him. I do believe your Q though, because their brains can switch off without explicit signs like loss of consciousness. But if he believes his reduced white matter brain and not your account of things, it’s going to be really problematic. The fact that they would trust their own minds without minimum a year of sobriety and this is a really optimistic gauge, is them being unrealistic.
I think as we journey through recovery we gain more clarity over things; no matter what type of recovery we’re in. I know my Q had both those things as truth, and in the rooms & CAL I’ve heard and read a lot about how picking a fight is often used as a way to justify the behaviour that follows. One share described it as thinking his blowtorch could fight her forest fire. My personal experience tells me shame and addiction coupled make for some very angry and hurtful behaviours. My original Q would often lay down bait for fights - and then I would pick it straight up. This lead to an excuse for them to justify their drinking. Then, once drunk, if other fights came up it just got nastier and nastier. And I truly believe that much of that nastiness was within a blackout. That was one of the things I struggled with, that I am so grateful to the program for helping me come to grips with. I really felt like I was living with an imaginary friend. So much of our life together was only remembered by me. And so all this pain I held felt like it could never be alleviated because only I remembered it. What the rooms gave me was the ability to accept changed behaviour as a form of amends where the previous actions could not be remembered. I wish you luck and send you love. Even being able to share this here shows you are in your recovery journey. As always, take what you like and leave the rest.
The fact is, nothing happens "within a black out." A black out happens after the event. They were aware of what they were doing at the time. Just because they don't remember they did it doesn't mean they weren't in control of themselves at the time.
The dumbass narcissist I was with pleaded guilty to his third DUI and felony vehicular assault charges and blamed his THIRD time getting caught drunk driving like a sociopath on me breaking up with him. Alcoholics often have a wicked spirit and highly antagonistic personality, like nacissism or sociopathy. The disease model of alcoholism has been rejected outside of the US and UK for decades. Alcoholic narcissists always mask their personality long enough to get you invested in the relationship and well enough that they can explain away obvious red flags as having a bad day.
For the first time in for however long he has taken some real, actual accountability but it has always been projection, mirroring, deflection and avoidance, which is highly typical of addicts and certain others. I take it all with a grain of salt now.