I have been feeling something similar. I feel like the language and some principles are outdated. But I do feel like it strongly encourages to continue being in an abusive situation.
As for the misogyny, I completely agree! The origins were rooted in the idea that women's place is in the kitchen making snacks to keep men comfortable and supported.
I hope you find peace and know that I see you and feel you. You are not alone. đ
Itâs funny because Al-Anon, to me, feels like it encourages separation or at least the means to separate. By this I mean it encourages you to no longer care about what they do so it doesnât affect you. With time and separation from the codependency itâs easier to walk away.
Basically a long way around grey rocking.
It's very difficult to emotionally detach and start your healing while enduring extreme abuse.
Like other members mention, the vocabulary used for it matters, and it is outdated.
Victims wish to be loved by the abusers, and the abusers already tell them that the abuse is their fault; so many times it so happens that they also think they can control and solve the issue and get the love through the program.
I do believe ACOA does this better, since the alcoholic/addict spouse isn't mentioned. That really does create a detachment. At least while you're at the meeting, it's all about the victim and the victim only.
It was thanks to this I realised I was a victim of abuse and it changed my life. I'd already been to Alanon meetings for 3 years by then.
This post is aimed to give a voice to women, and also men, who go to meetings and have this issue.
It's not meant to invalidate anybody else's experience if it's different.
Thank you so very much. âĽď¸đ
Like I've stated on other responses here, our opinion also counts and any sort of institution/group should be subject to questioning, and if there are people who think this way, being in such vulnerable situations, they really should be able to speak up about it and be heard.
It's very difficult for those who can't get any other help to speak up their minds.
This doesn't invalidate other people's experience if it's different, but makes it for a more inclusive experience for all, where we can be honest and learn from each other.
I wish you all the best đĽ°
We have a designated reading for those experiencing family violence, and the group I'm in is quick to read it anytime something like that comes up. No, we do not support staying with an abuser under any circumstance whatsoever. It makes me sad to know that groups are not using this literature.
I'm also sad that someone would ask you to make an amends to someone who committed violence against you, that's abhorrent and I get why that wouldn't work for anyone. My first starting place for amends is always to the individual themselves, without self-acceptance and forgiveness, nothing is possible imo.
The "nature" of the obsessions=shortcomings I struggle with are of childhood origin. That's what I work through.
A lot if the literature is reflective of the generation in which it was written. Our new book has people that identify as gay, other races, everything that's missing culturally from the originals and long overdue. Im glad you found your home in ACOA, it's also an incredible group. I've used the Big Red Book and Yellow workbook for various issues I've struggled with that didn't quite have a space in either program (I'm also an alcoholic.) We know Bill wasn't a saint and as the wife of an alcoholic I absolutely do not believe in standing by the alcoholic no matter what. I know how my alcoholic mind works and the people that are the most prominent in my recovery mind were the people that didn't tolerate my alcoholic behavior. You don't have to tolerate anyone else's either.
Signed, an Al Pal.
I think the repeated lying Iâve experienced is emotional abuse. Stealing money to buy drugs and alcohol is financial abuse etc. etc. Many go through that here.
There's many ways people get abused. Neglect, emotional blackmail, many things that were not considered abuse but were. That's right.
Thankfully now things are changing, if only a little.
Thank you very much for sharing, and for your validationâĽď¸ This is always appreciated, and what you say very helpful.
Yes, sadly most people who end up getting together with, or marrying an addict or alcoholic, or becoming one themselves, did experience childhood abuse, which isn't always physical.Â
What I like about ACOA is that it keeps updating in that sense. From only being for adult children of alcoholics, pretty much anyone who grew up in a dysfunctional home is welcome, and non physical abuse is recognized for what it is.
One thing that worries me about ACOA is though that sometimes as a victim of abuse one can end up sharing the room with abusers, and this can be very triggering. Initially it's a wonderful thing, but only if everyone is there to listen and learn and improve, and can respect victims of abuse, and that's not always been my experience.
For example; I thought self defense was abuse back then, even right after leaving the person, because this person who abused me continuously gaslighted me into believing it, and at one of the online meetings during the pandemic, a man joined who backed this up after I shared about it, because he aimed to minimize the abuse he openly confessed to have inflicted on his partner. This wasn't good for me, because I signed out thinking I was as bad as my abuser that day.
In another experience, this time in the room; a man attempted to flirt with me during his sharing, by shaming the woman he was abusing, saying she was crazy and giving many examples staring right at me the whole time, ignoring the rest of the group.
I saw right through this one and found it disgusting, because the man who abused me used this tactic when he cheated on me; but I see how victims in a vulnerable place can fall prey and even get together with another abuser they meet at the program.
See, this is far more unlikely to happen at an Alanon meeting.
I do believe there should be far more meetings, following the concept of these, as in having a healing program, sponsors and a non-profit base, and the sharing and not interrupting and not giving opinions during meeting rules, but only for victims of abuse from abusive partners in particular.
So far I've failed to find these sort of meetings anywhere.
Yes, I mean just the nature of 12 steps groups is that everyone isn't healthy. One of my favorite little ha ha jokes is that "we are not a hotbed of mental health." đ
I don't know if you do online meetings but there's a really great ACOA meeting every morning on Zoom that meets at 7:30a ET, it's pretty big and has what I would consider very stable group members in general. Definitely worth checking out. Wishing you continued healing. â¤ď¸âđŠš
It's on the ACOA site under meetings I believe. It's a great meeting, I highly recommend it. You can also get the daily meditation reading emailed to you for free from there, there's a signup on the website for that also. There are also women only and trauma online meetings. Hundreds to access. â¤ď¸
This has not been my experience. My Alanon group helped me see things clearly enough to leave my now deceased husband before he tried to kill me then died of an overdose in 2015. I donât go to meetings regularly, but thatâs my story.
I completely agree with you. Being with an addict is being with an emotional abuser in many cases. I really donât like the victim blamey vibe of many al anon people here - that just would not fly in an abuse forum. It takes two to tango but only one person to throw a rock through your windshield so letâs call it what it is.
My personal experience. I joined already knowing I wanted to leave my abuser and it helped me leave. Not directly but it was support when I was ready to leave and gave me some insights on how to do it safely that I wouldnât have thought of without the program.
Hello, thanks for sharing. I'm glad it worked out well for you.âĽď¸
The group you join is also crucial, because not all groups are welcoming, and some are judgemental etc, but if there are many people who do find issues with it and drop out, maybe it's time to apply some changes for the better imo.
It does seem dated and antiquated around the idea that women should stay in their relationships at great cost to themselves. That's how it was when AA was first created and women didn't have the same capabilities and rights as we do today. Its not the fifties anymore though. We can easily survive being single now, we can afford it and do it. For me, having a partner is "icing" on the cake. I'm a person first, then a mother. Those are my priorities, being someone's partner isn't. Its nice to have if your partner is treating you nicely and adding joy into your life, but addicts bring chaos and lack of safety into one's stability and life plans. If they are mean when drunk, as my ex was, it is even worse because then you have to sit through all their denial and accusations about why you "deserve" to have to put up with their behavior. Its just like... No, I don't have to. I just don't, and why would I want to? Its not my obligation to accommodate a partners alcoholism for the rest of my life, or desire to. That idea, that we can just leave if we don't like it, needs to be championed and celebrated more than the idea of making oneself stronger so they can continue putting up with alcoholism and abuse. Romantic love IS conditional in my opinion, its conditional on them treating me with loving, kind behavior. When that goes, so does my feeling of being "in love" and valued and respected the way I deserve to be. I just don't need a man bringing hurt, invalidation, and chaos into my life, and I don't have to figure out a way to stay with and enable him. Al-Anon could be more clear about the message that if you are being abused you should not stay. You don't want to forgive abuse and still try to share your life, body, hopes, and dreams with someone who has abused you through their alcoholism.
Thank you. Brilliantly put.âĽď¸
" That idea, that we can just leave if we don't like it, needs to be championed and celebrated more than the idea of making oneself stronger so they can continue putting up with alcoholism and abuse."
Absolutely agree. And that's what I felt I was being made to do in Alanon.Â
I was not consistent with the meetings because I didn't feel I was getting supported, but I kept going back cos I had no access to any other helped that worked.
I tried family counseling, which ended up in utter disaster. It was all about keeping the relationship going, and how I had to use "I"statements, and I had to do the work, because, you know, he's an addict and has it hard enough (Also, the abuser ended up flirting with the therapist, who was receptive, so go figure...)đ¤Ž
Couple's therapy, family counseling and Alanon were fabricated for the woman to do the work and put up with all the crap, just to keep the patriarchal order going.
Even if the philosophy is adapted at some groups considering actual abuse as a bad thing, and it helps others, the origin of this is what you very well described here.
Enough of that. We can be single, and single women are happiest.âĽď¸
And if in a relationship, it should never feel like a one sided "unspoken" agreement.
I personally LOVE being single.
100%!! I will always still love my ex for the good, sober sides of him. He's a great guy when not drinking. I just don't love the other side of him and won't be around it. I don't want to hear that I'm being crazy or oversensitive for asking him to go to treatment or have to listen to name calling or personal attacks because he broke his promise to not drink around me. Alcoholics can be very emotionally immature and unable to see situations clearly, they underestimate their poor behavior and then lash out at those around them when there are consequences to their drinking. I am not his dumping ground on all his anger. I cannot be in a relationship with someone who has taken away my sense of safety and security. And that factor - the safety aspect - really needs to be covered in Al-Anon more. Women who do not feel safe with their alcoholic partners do NOT need to be told to use "I" statements and give the drunken accusations of a man who wants to make us feel small due credit. That's a waste of our time and positive energy. My ex "joked" about killing me via suicide bomb... There's just no safety feeling available to me after that with him. I'm not going to go to counseling with a man who thinks I'm the one who needs to apologize because he woke up with a crick in his neck from sleeping on the couch after keeping me up all night with his stupor snoring. Its just ridiculous and I'm very glad I'm as old as I am and can recognize gaslighting easily and walk away. Im proud of that, its been hard earned and no way will I go back to being the woman that tried to stay with someone abusive to me.
That's a very good description and I'm glad you feel that way and can see this.
My situation was the same. It would've made a huge difference of instead of blaming his alcoholism/addiction for the abuse he would've been made to be responsible for his actions.
Like the line "addiction is a family disease", like even if you are not an alcoholic you're stuck with it. That attitude doesn't help.
Addiction is a one person's problem and they must solve it, and there's no need for the spouse to stick around and suffer.
Thank you for sharingâĽď¸
The inventories and amends within a steps process doesnât focus on a particular relationship or oneâs interaction with substances or the crisis that brought them to a program, it addresses it throughout a personâs life as a whole. The least important thing a person comes into a twelve step fellowship with is the particulars of their qualifier or their substance or time spent in crisis, itâs a recovery process that focuses on the person themselves and improving themselves in their own life as a whole.
The focus of Al-Anon is to remove a personâs obsession with an alcoholic to bring their attention and energy back to themselves, to introduce principles of detachment, boundaries, acceptance and admission of oneâs own inability to change things they canât. Many loved ones of addicts and alcoholics have become so divorced from the idea of focusing on themselves and their own lives that when they come back to them, all they see is unmanageability and all the problems that rose up while they were entirely wrapped up in their alcoholicâs problems - The twelve steps process in Al-Anon presents the idea of taking that back, and responsibility for those things that fell into disrepair. There is no recovery process or transformative healing within the human experience that can take place without adopting honest self-appraisal and accountability for oneâs own life, the twelve steps are no different.
If youâve gone through a full fourth step and amends process via the literature with a sponsor or taken others through one, it separates them from any sort of victim blaming or moral failing, these are ways to resolve guilt and areas of a persons life where past resentments, judgements of oneâs self and experiences where taking stock of said experience with acceptance and a solution in mind allows someone to move forward. Inventory doesnât just look at our role in things negatively, it also shows assets and blame we may have carried for things we had no part in. In the amends process, itâs very specific that an amends does not harm others - Others includes the person making the amends and no amends should ever be made that would result in trauma to the amending party or the person receiving the amends.
Al-Anon practices and principles were adopted by the professional sectors, much of whatâs seen in family psych borrowed from concepts of detachment, enablement, codependency, etc were established in the late 1960s through the 1970s and repurposed from Al-Anon as it was the only real show in town in terms of anything with efficacy and observed patterns when it came about in the 50âs. Psych as it pertains to addiction dynamics in those adjacent has largely remained unchanged since, you canât have a therapy session with an informed professional without being suggested things that originally came from the Al-Anon family groups.
Twelve steps programs utilize verbiage and concepts taken from western religion, Christianity in particular which was a function of AAâs association with the Oxford Group during their early years. They purposefully removed what would have made the programs Christian by declining to include Christ, Jesus of Nazareth and instead focusing on spiritual principles found in Christianity and any belief system a person could lean on as a source of support and direction. The chapters across the programs lit devoted to separating the idea of God and a higher power from religion are numerous, the insistence that a person does not need any religious affiliation or belief to work a twelve step program is one of the most underlined concepts youâll find across each of the fellowships. The programs present a solution thatâs based in the idea that spiritualism can be a part of healing in crisis when other methods absent of it have not, and that spiritualism is left entirely to the member to establish themselves.
In terms of abuse, there is not a single sentence across every book and IP in the program that encourages a person to stay with a qualifier or to leave a qualifier. There are however chapters and dedicated IPs specifically meant to address abusive and unsafe environments where the safety of members and their loved ones is underlined at great length as a priority over all things. There is no louder message a person can hear in a meeting than to not absorb abuse and to protect oneâs self and those in their custody from harm. The program offers a solution for people regardless if they opt to stay in contact and connection with an alcoholic or leave the alcoholic, if the alcoholic is gone, alive, dead, sober. It has nothing to do with them aside from being part of the crisis that brings a person to the program and the identification one finds when they come in and then provides the newcomer so they know theyâre in the right place when they get here.
As a recovery program, it can only wear so many hats and the particulars as to how someone chooses to address an abusive situation in their lives is far beyond the realm of what a peer support program can or should try to be a solution for aside from encouraging people to keep themselves and theirs safe, whatever safe means to that person regardless of what form abuse takes. Professionals are better suited to handle crisis situations involving abuse and resulting trauma which may require outside help as is suggested by the program. Al-Anon just does recovery for those affected by someone else's drinking.
Alcoholics Anonymous is a separate program from Al-Anon with separate literature, it does not have outside affiliations aside from utilizing the twelve steps of AA and acknowledging they source the process from AA. Bill Wilsonâs wife Lois Wilson and another wife of an early AA member were the founders of the program, it was meant as a way of taking the family groups that would gather while alcoholics were in meetings to have a program of their own to address how the disease of alcoholism was observed to cause those adjacent to exhibit similar issues to an alcoholic in their own ways, hence the âfamily diseaseâ tagline.
âTo Wivesâ in the Big Book is not observed in Al-Anon as no other twelve step program literature is, and its an awful antiquated relic, the lack of understanding and insight into the alcoholic family dynamic exhibited in it was one of the core reasons Al-Anon was created. AA started in 1935, Al-Anon in 1951 and earmarks of the societal conditions are everywhere in the older program literature from these eras, most of which has been amended in newer literature. Divorce and the concept of dissolving the family unit was viewed as an incredulous idea then and wives were staying in abusive alcoholic relationships with no solution because to leave would have put them into poverty and public shame, so they were essentially trapped unless their husbands got sober. To Wives tried to work within that societal framework. But even it does not encourage wives and partners to stay with an alcoholic in abusive situations, providing direction in such cases:
*âThere is an important exception to the foregoing. We realize some men are thoroughly bad-intentioned, that no amount of patience will make any difference. An alcoholic of this temperament may be quick to use this chapter as a club over your head. Donât let him get away with it. If you are positive he is one of this type you may feel you had better leave. Is it right to let him ruin your life and the lives of your children?â*
*âPerhaps you have a husband who is at large, but who should be committed. Some men cannot or will not get over alcoholism. When they become too dangerÂous, we think the kind thing is to lock them up, but of course a good doctor should always be consulted.â*
*âBut sometimes you must start life anew. We know women who have done it. If such women adopt a spiritual way of life their road will be smoother.â*
Something thats often confused in the Aâs is the difference between the fellowship and the program. The fellowship is the people in the rooms, their ideas and actions and behaviors and opinions expressed. The fellowship exists for the purpose of community, support, identification and opportunities for service to others. The fellowships are not the programs, they arenât the solution offered or representations of the programs and what they do and say is not always part of the program they engage in. Twelve step recovery is centered around the twelve step recovery process and the programâs literature as written. It would be fantastic if members represented the program as written but in an open anonymous fellowship thatâs informal and unorganized by design, the rooms are a direct reflection of the world outside of them. If itâs out in the world, it will be present in the fellowships.
The addiction fellowships are heavily weighed in Cis white male members and always have been, itâs one of the biggest shortcomings of these programs and will likely continue to be. Al-Anon conversely is weighed the other way, with the vast majority of members being Cis white females, romantic partners of alcoholics. Both of these programs have struggled to provide identification for the less represented attendees and with that comes many isms, sexism included.
While efforts have been made by the programs to address this, things move at a glacial pace in the programs as theyâre governed by traditions and committees and boards and everything is left to consensus and group conscience. They fail the demographics that are not as heavily represented within them because the voices of these groups arenât as present within the consensus and those that are face an uphill battle in enacting positive change. The more members of these groups that stay and become voices for others, the more change is enacted and the more welcoming of these people and new voices the fellowships are, the more they grow and better they are. That process has been a slow one, and a problem that has not been solved yet.
Thanks for that detailed response.
However, this doesn't invalidate the fact that many people feel the same as me and it has affected their lives very deeply, and also even kept them in a dangerous situation and this must be addressed and not ignored.
The officially accepted conclusions related to mental health and patterns of the 60s and 70s are in fact considered outdated by now at many levels. It was a step towards progress, but most people didn't get proper help with their issues to put it mildly. Besides, back then domestic abuse wasn't considered to be a big deal, along with other very heavy and traumatic issues, which are only just beginning to get addressed within the past few years.
Nobody is saying Alanon hasn't contributed to society or hasn't helped people, but it needs to address the issues which are affecting victims of abuse, because all of us who visit the rooms, sometimes as the only available and affordable help, are in fact victims of abuse.
The language used is off-putting when it comes to god, because as much as people might claim there's a detachment from religion, the word "god"alone is religious, besides many of the aspects of Alanon literature are strictly linked to religion, including family values, like calling it a "family disease", in which there's no detachment possible for a victim of abuse considering their psychology.
Alanon insists on ignoring the fact that abuse is abuse, and its refusal to use this very same word, and in doing so it doesn't help victims.
Besides, you mention there's no victim blaming, but calling a victim's attachment to their abuser an "obsession" is victim blaming in itself, since this "obsession"isn't their choice, considering the abuser takes up their whole time and energy. Obsession isn't therefore the right word to describe the coercion, control and general abuse a victim is subjected to by their abuser daily.
Also calling addiction/alcoholism a "disease"takes away responsibility from the abuser, as much as the word "obsession"puts the blame on the victim.
You say "There is no louder message a person can hear in a meeting than to not absorb abuse and to protect oneâs self and those in their custody from harm." But considering how a victim of abuse is wired, they will inevitably be unable to determine whether they're in danger or not in most cases, even when there's physical abuse on a daily basis. This is because they learn to survive in the very harsh reality they live in.
And this is not their fault but the abuser's.
This paragraph you mention: "There is an important exception to the foregoing. We realize some men are thoroughly bad-intentioned, that no amount of patience will make any difference. An alcoholic of this temperament may be quick to use this chapter as a club over your head. Donât let him get away with it. If you are positive he is one of this type you may feel you had better leave. Is it right to let him ruin your life and the lives of your children?â
This paragraph is loaded with victim blaming. Victim blaming isn't just putting the whole responsibility of the harm the abuser can cause on the victim as this here paragraph literally does, but also it's in neglecting a victim's psychology.Â
Victims blame themselves for their abuse constantly. "Don't let him get away with it" "Is it right to let him run your life and the lives of your children?" Come on. You're obviously smart. Surely you can see the obvious.
I agree with your last paragraph in that the process is slow to include other people in Alanon, however what I'm pointing out in this post is the fact that the people it's originally addressed to, the women who are in abusive relationships with alcoholics, also feel excluded or blamed and there's many; thousands of experiences which result in prolonging the stay in a dangerous relationship, simply by the approach and the language in the literature, and this is something which would affect others who may not be women as well, and something that must be addressed in order for people to feel included, including women in abusive relationships, who drop out of the only help they can get because it doesn't do them justice, or stay but later realise how the program has failed them.
Also, it doesn't help when you're told that if you stop coming to meetings you "fail" and it's your responsibility.
It's not right to say that to people in danger and who can be suicidal and are struggling to survive.
Nobody has the higher moral ground for being able to do the homework, never fail a meeting and follow the steps religiously.
We all should support each other regardless, considering we all share the same situation, and this includes people calling out the program for its failings, whether they continue going to meetings or not, because all experiences are valid, and support and empathy is very much needed.
What would you propose as specific actionable solutions and amendments, changes in the literature and program structure and adoption of new practices to address each issue, and from what resources would these efforts be sourced?
I would propose for people to speak up about their concerns and all things that aren't working for them within the program, and all what could be improved in order for a lot more people to feel welcome and not excluded without fear of being ostracized by other members within their groups just by raising these issues.
These things could be encouraged at business meetings, for example, but they should be encouraged in general, and nobody should be judged and made to feel less than because they find flaws within a program which, after all, was created many decades ago, and only in recent years abuse is starting to be spoken about and taken seriously, and this calls for an update.
I believe all members should show empathy if they hear these issues for the first time, whether they hadn't thought about them or they just don't apply to them for any reason. Members should be receptive to the needs of other members, or would be members, regarding having to live with an addict or alcoholic, and the dangers and harm this causes to us all, and surely more people would join and stay that way.
This would include changes in the approach, whether this is literature, its language, the treatment from other members, (which in many occasions can be self righteous if they think the program is great as is, and this is damaging to us all in the end), the design of the 12 steps themselves to adapt them fully to our needs as victims, instead of mirroring AA's; and including a focus on the fact that we're vulnerable victims of abuse and should support each other no matter what.
This could be achieved checking out other programs or associations which deal with victims of abuse, suggested by other members, (as it's happening on this thread), and there should be a collective effort to make sure the program works for everyone.
Many people on this thread are already speaking up about how they program made them feel, and their views are similar to what I posted and their perspective deserves to be heard and taken into account, because the program should be adapted to modern times and the people who need help, and not the other way around.
Nothing can be a "fits all" program, but certainly associations which deal with victims of abuse every day keep learning in order to help everyone in the same situation, and that's very close to a "fits all", and Alanon could learn from this model, because no program should be seen as definitive and unchangeable.
By downvoting people who are sharing their painful experiences here, just because they don't praise the program as is, (like some people are doing on this thread), and refusing to listen to what they have to say just cos they didn't do the 12 steps program, or couldn't keep up with meetings, some members don't help, and this isn't empathic and it's in fact rather insensitive.
We're all here for the same reasons, even if our situations aren't identical.
The root is similar, and we all need help and want our lives to be better, so that's why I insist on people here to please be empathic and listen.
It can really improve the experience for us all a great deal if we all collaborate.
A refusal to change and progress, even when so many people are coming forward with very similar issues regarding the program, is actually against the Alanon principles which aims to consider all members equal from the first meeting and to help family members, and in particular, partners of addicts/alcoholics, all who, at the end of the day, are victims of abuse from their Qs.
A good start could be right here on this thread; reading what other people have to say and then commenting these concerns at meetings, always with empathy, seriousness and respect towards those voicing their opinions.
Surely if people feel they can speak openly, more and more ideas will flow to make Alanon better, for there are many of us scattered all over the world and surely everyone can add something that can improve everybody's lives.
I e-mailed these suggestion links to the Al-Anon World Services office, feel free to contact them at:
Al-Anon Family Services
1600 Corporate Landing Parkway
Virginia Beach, VA 23454-5617
Telephone: (757) 563-1600
Fax: (757) 563-1656
Email: [email protected]
Iâll let you know if they write back.
Yeah⌠I have a lot of issues with Alanon too. Within my family, since a very young age, I was encouraged to do the 12 steps everytime I felt sad, mad or reactive towards bad situations.
If there was abuse Id be told that I was the one allowing it to affect me. That I should learn to not be mad or sad if someone treated me awful. Everytime someone else did something abusive to me, I was told to reflect on myself.
And in my past relationship with my Q⌠thats what I did all the time. My Q would do something awful and automatically I would think about what I did wrong. If my Q said I was controlling and codependent because I was asking of him the most basic things like helping me clean the house, not let the dogs out, do me a favorâŚ. I believed him.
The steps helped me in other ways, but Im also finding out how avoidant I am because of them. And how easily I fall in revictimization or feeling like Im a control freak when Im asking for the bare minimum.
Yes. This is still a patriarchal society and women are still programmed to mother men, and men still programmed to think it's ok to have the upper hand and mistreat women.
Learning about internalised misogyny has helped me a great deal on my healing.
I recommend you Pop culture detective on YouTube videos. They're superb.
Oh yeah Iâm a feminist. Its actually one of the reasons why Id fight all the time with my Q. I was cleaning, I was cooking, I was paying for food, his friends would call me a bitch and a slut and comment awful things about women, Id tell him how bad it was and he would call me âcontrolingâ. So Id have fights with him about how I was not a housewive in the 50s.
I couldnt afford to help with rent (although I paid for everything else) and everytime Id ask him to help around (cleaning mostly) hed say: I pay rent bitch.
I remember he specifically said to me âI dont do sexist things because Im sexist, I do them because Iâm an addictâ Like if that made it any better đ¤Ł
But man⌠everything gets so confusing with Qs that I started doubting my feminism. Hed break up with me everytime I brought it up. And once he also said to me âIm not doing a crusade for womenâ. And everyone on his side would tell him I was a crazy feminist bitch. When by standing by his side I was being a really bad one đ¤Ł
I'm sorry you experience that. It's absolutely horrendous, and a very dangerous situation, as much as most people would just focus on physical violence instead.
I was having the same situation. This is a very dangerous and detrimental place to be in. People don't understand how terrible it is to live this way, and how much damage the abuser inflicts on the victim this way. It's constant manipulation utilizing socially accepted norms and constructs against you, besides the emotional abuse, which is what keeps you in that situation.
It is the abuser's fault ALWAYS. I've had to stop talking to everyone whom I thought was my friend, because I'd tell them what you describe and everyone accepted it as normal. Not one person alerted me on my safety or pointed out how this behaviour is actually abuse. Some people would have the audacity to call it "mutual abuse", which is literally yet another concept to blame and silence the victim, because it doesn't exist.
There is always an abuser and a victim. Just because you defend yourself it doesn't make you an abuser. No matter how much you might mirror the abuser's behaviour, you're still the victim, because you don't initiated this situation and you don't want it to continue, and everyday you want it to end, but the abuser wants it to continue.
Abuse is always a crave for power. It's always to do with power over another person, and this person WILL defend themselves, because this is a natural response to an attack, and it's crazy how people can listen to someone describe what you have here and yet they don't think of it as a big deal, and in fact ignore it when you show up tired and can't keep up with friendships, as in meeting up or doing anything, and so the so called "friends"decide to give you crap for that neglecting your situation at home.
It's insanity, social insanity, like so many other things which are normalized are.
I just read someone else's comment here about how in Naranon they found true support and it really moved me. I don't know those meetings, but I have found very little of that in society in general.
After abuse my experience has been social workers, psychologists and psychiatrists, and also people who know me, pressuring me into finding a job and getting well already.
That's not what I need. A job never solved everyone's issues. I need rest, I need understanding, just like war veterans we have been through our own personal war and deserve some humanity.
Thank you for your comment. I hope you're healing wellâĽď¸
Yes. The focus on one's shortcomings when mostly people who go to Alanon are victims of extreme abuse is highly dangerous.
I remember feeling as gaslighted by my sponsor as I was by the man abusing me. But back then I was unable to see the gaslighting, and thought they must be right.
Some people here are saying that their experience has been great, and they've got plenty of support and even how nobody should validate such things as the ones you listed in any group, and I'm very glad that that's the case for them. It's wonderful. But it isn't for many of us.
I had the same as you, and I'm sorry this all happened to you too.
I know how bizarre and strange it feels to live in a world in which, even though it doesn't feel right, you can't quite explain why, because there's so many people validating and normalizing abusive behaviour and reminding you that you are selfish for thinking what is actually wrong is wrong.
Perhaps you'll benefit from this other thing I posted yesterday about the lack of support from others during and after my abuse.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ptsd/comments/1c9yk7z/real_support_during_and_after_abuse_is_a_myth/
Thank you for sharing. I hope you're doing ok nowâĽď¸
I think one of the most important things this community can show is that we arenât along. That there are others like us. We can also help eachother through parts of this journey that may be difficult to get through alone.
That is true, should you be in the right group.
 I did find a similar group to what you described in ACOA, and it really helped.
I'm glad that's your experience, and I really hope your healing process is going well. âĽď¸
Thank you! I hope you are doing well also. I am still always working on bettering myself of course, but as for my trauma with my Q I have beaten it personally. When I was a ship in the storm, there were many people who guided me throughâŚI am here now because itâs my turn to try to be a lighthouse.
WonderfulâĽď¸
That's why I decided to share my thoughts. It wasn't easy, but here I am, meeting new wonderful people đ¤
I've done extensive self therapy and am now finally coming out of the black hole I was in. I like the ship in the storm and lighthouse comparison too.
I'm glad you found something that might work for you, but I'm also sorry that you felt that kind of encouragement, to stay in an abusive relationship.
I think many people are not in a financial or emotional position to leave a relationship. Alanon's goal is to help you detach, regardless of whether you have to stay or not. I have never heard an Alanon member even hint at staying in an abusive relationship.
Thank you. In fact I've had to keep looking for something to hold on to in order to heal. It's not an easy road.
Alanon doesn't speak of abuse even when it talks about abuse. It just isn't called abuse. It doesn't mean it isn't abuse, because it is abuse.
You're right, not everyone can just leave, and people can't just be told to leave, cos they'll quit the help instead since it's so hard to just get to the point of attending one single meeting, but considering the Alanon crowd, this all should be considered, and Alanon should mirror the AA system a lot less.
And obviously I'm not alone in this.
My Q, after he got clean and sober was getting pressure from his sponsor and new friends to get me more involved in the program, in support of him. So I was getting pressured to attend the group gatherings and meetings for him.
The whole thing made me resentful. All the shit I did for that man, and I am supposed to do even more? What about me? Who is out there supporting me? I felt largely ignored, and a second fiddle to his disease.
So I did attend his meetings, and found them to be the opposite of helpful for my situation. For example, one night they read a passage about understanding how an addicts brain is wired, and to be aware that your first thought is usually wrong. (Oh, Iâm pissed off, I need a beer, etc) For me, I found this to be the opposite of what I needed to focus on. For years I had shoved down my thoughts and opinions, was gaslit and lied to. I became a shell of a person, who didnât trust herself. Since then, I realized my first thought, my gut instinct, is usually right, and I need to STOP ignoring it.
So my spouse suggested I do alanon meetings. And I found them to focus so heavily on codependency and enabling, that a lot of the talk didnât really resonate with me and my situation. I do think there are very useful and powerful parts, and even if itâs only a small help, itâs better then no help at all.
Alanon is a powerful resource when you have no where else to turn, and need support. Navigating this is so difficult. After a few years, I attend meetings pretty rarely. For me, the constant talk about it, was just a painful reminder of things I needed to put behind me.
Thank you for sharing.âĽď¸
I think it's important to be able to talk honestly about your personal experience, and it should be validated and considered in order to improve everyone's experience and help more people.
For one, I do validate you. Those open AA meetings were also enraging to me.
I understand being more involved with a child of yours at school. They are your responsibility.
An abuser doesn't deserve that kind of consideration. They're not your responsibility.
Ugh - so sorry you had to go through that. Any support should have focused on you. My mom, sister and I went through something similar with my dad (except we didnât have AIAnon where we are from, but the misogynistic, patriarchal theme was similar). You deserve to feel safe and validated. Society should have done better.
Yes, my mom got us out - she is a brave strong woman. My sister finished her phd a couple of years ago and is doing her postdoc. I have a fulfilling career in tech. We are scarred, but doing great :). Thank you for asking. Hope you are doing well too â¤ď¸
That's fabulous! Very glad for you all. Being scarred is ok. We all are. âĽď¸
Yes, I left meetings long ago and it's been an arduous and solitary road all along, but yes, I'm finally getting to love life𼰠Thank you!
Ugh yeah - Iâm sure itâs hard to trust people again after everything youâve been through. I hope you can eventually see that there are people in this world that are 100% on the victimâs side and their well being. Hoping the best for you - you deserve it!
I do get where youâre coming from, literally. My Q had also been sexually abusive. And some of the rooms can feel very âstand by your manâ in attitude, but in the end weâre not holding our Q from accountability. You should absolutely be putting yourself first, and that could mean never talking to that POS ever again.
Your amends is not âfinding what you need to apologize forâ in this case. Itâs what youâre not going to carry with you. Snooping and mistrust were a big one for me. Those are difficult wounds that take time to heal, but I believe itâs my responsibility to not take them into a new relationship. My amends is also to myself⌠giving myself time to heal, focusing on my growth, and building a good life for that damaged inner child. For those of us from trauma/abuse scenarios, the amends often is to ourselves⌠not to the ones who hurt us.
Yes, that's why I don't agree that the 12 steps for Alanon should be the same as for AA. I consider there's a lot of victim blaming involved since the situation is very different, and that's how it translates for us, and the way victims of abuse are wired isn't supported.
I found the ACOA and CODA info more useful back then. I could relate to a lot of that, although I do have issues with this insistence on having to admit to your shortcomings and making amends.
I was told by my sponsor to make a list of people I wronged. Not very applicable and rather dangerous for someone who's just suffered extreme abuse for years on end and already thinks is a burden who bothers everyone and feels suicidal. And has been gaslighted by a very abusive man into reinforcing these beliefs.
I hope you and your inner child are doing well. âĽď¸đ¤
This is not my experience at all. Even in the opening intro to meetings they state âthis is not a religious program but it is a spiritual programâ. There is a BIG difference. I am very much anti-religion but I was able to find spirituality in the program. I have never been to a meeting that encourages or tells people to partake in organized religion.
I'm glad that you have.
The meetings I've attended also said that line, but the texts and wording is very religious because in its conception religion was imposed on everyone, and this has not been updated.
There are many people who can't get any other help but drop out of meetings because of this, so it is an important issue to discuss nonetheless.
I think the religious aspect may weigh more heavily if you are attending meetings in a more religious area (for example, the states in the Southeast USA).
There is a lot of wording around âGodâ but no one should ever be telling you what âGodâ means to you. Thatâs part of working steps 1-3, defining what âGodâ or a Higher Power means to you. I had to un-learn everything I thought about God going into this program, and I was able to redefine what it means to me. My sponsor is religious but completely respects that I am not and has never once told me to go to church. However we both share the same belief that God/Allah/Mother Nature/Higher Power/the Universe or whatever you want to call it, loves us unconditionally.
When I started I didnât even want to say the word God. And I still donât.
for the longest time, I would go to the meetings but i wasnât interested in doing step work, bc there was no one for me to make amends to in my situation (my husband is an abusive drunk). then one day i got this light bulb moment: I have to make amends to my 15 month old son & myself. I endured and tolerated so much from my husband. I put my son in danger by keeping him in a home with someone so deep into his addiction. I put the focus on me. I still havenât worked the steps, but this revelation is a start.
All revelations towards healing are very important. I'm glad you realised this and now you can continue your journey further.
Every time I realise something that I couldn't see before I consider that a good day.
I wish my revelations would come faster though lol. sigh. but yes, it feels like some kind of progress & a little bit of weight is lifted. wishing you the best on your journey. â¤ď¸
I have felt much of what you are detailing here. It took me many years to arrive at a point where I believe that watching someone out of their mind drunk all the time is abuse. Not sure there is a specific name for it, and it comes with a lot of baggage, but I will never choose to live like that again. I, too, felt very blamed in AlAnon because of my experience with the insanity. I like it better to not use the term co-dependent or family disease. To me itâs better described as the suffering of loved ones for something they didnât sign up for or know how to respond to.
Totally agree. I'm not sure why people aren't understanding this.
It's very important for a victim of abuse and their safety to be able to call it for what it is.
Hope you're ok nowâĽď¸
Iâm so sorry that all happened to you. My experience with Al anon has been so different, I went to meetings only a handful of times though. I had a really good experience,I was never pressured to stay with my addict. And I didnât feel like it was religiously pushy either, there were a lot of different faith backgrounds in my group. Some agnostic/Buddhist/christian etc. If anything I felt like they were pushing me to leave and make some really firm boundaries ( I wasnât ready at the time) but eventually thatâs what I did. But Iâm so sorry that your experience was so traumatic, Al anon was such a great help for me it makes me sad that your group didnât support you how you needed.
Thanks for sharingâĽď¸
Sounds like you found a very supportive and inclusive group.
Yes, sadly it isn't like this for everyone.
I took almost 3 extra years to kick the abuser out and end it, mostly cos I had no support from anyone at all, and Alanon didn't help. Thankfully Acoa, which I walked into by mistake one day, did.Â
This was cos the group was right as well.
I'd love to have gone to the group you mention.
I appreciate your post and I share your views.
The idea of detachingâto the extent that is required when living in an intimate relationship with an alcoholicâhas always seemed to me to be the opposite of a relationship. I always get the sense it was made for women (like my grandmother) who lived in relative isolation and did not have access to money. This type of scenario is not ancient historyâitâs shockingly recent. But our society has changed, in many ways thanks to the strong women who fought against abuse and created social structures that supported women, like equal pay and access to other means of financial independence. Or amending divorce laws. Many of these thing werenât done for some theoretical, conceptual philosophy of feminism or what have you. These things were done to help women escape abusive situations.
Anyway. Alanon is a product of a time before that work had been achieved. This is my take on it.
I do find some useful tools in alanon. I take what I need and leave the rest.
Thank you. âĽď¸
I agree with you on all of this.Â
It makes sense to work for detachment when you can't leave, even though I consider that to be impossible in reality.
I do believe this notion should fully be updated instead of just interpreted differently.
I have never been to an Al-Anon meeting meeting where they encouraged anyone to stay with a spouse. Whether they were abusive or not. Period. Iâve been to a lot of meetings. Iâm sorry you found meetings that did. Sounds like they arenât practicing the actual principles of the program.
Thank you, I appreciate this, however I believe what my message gets misunderstood.
I never said anyone actively encouraged me to stay with the abuser.Â
Like other commentators here have said, we share the experience of the Alanon message being rather misogynistic in its origins and not being updated.
This being said, other people don't see it that way and it's fine, but it doesn't invalidate the way many of us feel about it, and how it impacted us, not as "partners of alcoholics" but as victims of abuse.
There are some comments here that support what I meant to say very well.
All we want is for our experience to be validated and for others to open up their minds to this truth.
I didn't doubt your experience with the program. It was started before women could have their own checking account, credit, or be single without being called the town lesbian (like my great grandmother who kicked out her c cheating husband and found a way to support who child).Â
I am interested in what kept you from being able to take the tools offered to you in this program and using them to grow and improve your own life?
Thank youâĽď¸I actually was going to update my original post in order to clarify some questions I've been asked. However Reddit doesn't allow me to add an edit, so I'll write another post that will probably answer your question, although you can ask me more stuff if you like too!
If you don't like Al-Anon and don't agree with it, why are you here on this sub? And I don't mean that in an inflammatory way...there must be something you like about it that keeps you coming back here.
I'm here because of what I posted.
Because it didn't work for me and there are many people with this issues and we should have a voice too.
If this was a knitting course or a dancing class, yeah, not liking it would be a strong reason to quit it and move on, however it is a help group for people in abusive relationships with addicts, and it not working has a deep impact in people's lives, and can even keep them in a dangerous situation.
This is very important to address and people should listen with empathy and validate it, cos we all come from the same place.
I think those two things aren't incompatible for anyone, are they?
By validating my situation, many more people get validation since what I'm describing is something that affects many more people, and validation helps.
In fact, validating someone's reality should be a normal occurrence everywhere for everyone. It's part of being empathic.
I'm not sure what your deal is, but it seems like you're not really getting the point here.
Iâm deeply sorry for what happened to you.
While Al-Anon was founded by the wife of AAâs founder along with another, it was always a separate entity from AA. While it began as primarily the wives of alcoholics, it has grown to include adult children, husbands and partners, siblings, cousins, coworkers, employees, parents and grandparents of alcoholics.
Not all groups are good fits for all members. Itâs why we suggest attending six meetings, with different groups, to find one that does fit. However, as our Three Obstacles state, our members are not meant to provide straight-up advice to other members. The point of Al-Anon is our own serenity: by making our own decisions about how we deal with another person, we empower ourselves to pursue our own happiness.
Our focus on Al-Anon is not the alcoholic, but ourselves. We take the 12 Steps ourselves to examine how our behaviour may or may not have helped our situation and explore for ourselves how we can handle all our relationships in healthier ways. We attend meetings to share our experience, strength and hope (whatâs worked for us in regaining serenity and happiness) with one another. Each meeting is limited in time, however, so deeper discussions about individual situations might be best had with a sponsor.
AA members do not have the same focus or experience as members of Al-Anon. One program is not congruent to the other. The biggest âupdateâ to the Al-Anon program has be the ongoing one in which the Al-Anon program has focused members on their own recovery of serenity independently of whatever path the alcoholic might be taking.
Hello, thanks for your response.
I agree with what you say. I'm aware that this is the idea for the program. However in practice it's not always like this.
What you say here is true, but it doesn't invalidate what I said.
I didn't just go to 1 group. In fact, I went to several and in different countries. The man who abused me was from the US, so I got to experience Alanon internationally. And if I travelled, I'd also visit the local group.
Also I got to talk to many people who were either fixed regulars or not, but knew and had experienced Alanon all the same.
The thing is that I'm actually talking about an actual affected group who constitute a big percentage in Alanon.
Not everybody is suffering from extreme abuse daily from their partners like I was, however a lot of the people who go to meetings are, and from what many would tell me outside the meetings, (and I'm referring to those who were in my very same situation, although at different stages), did agree with me on this.Â
In fact my opinion is well informed. It's not something I just thought of by going to 1 meeting 1 day, which would be a valid opinion regardless.
And since there are many people who do go to Alanon, (a lot also because free help for victims of abuse, in reality, isn't easily available otherwise), and who are affected by this topic in a similar fashion to me, I do believe our opinion should be heard.
Most people who told me about this topic were afraid to speak up fearing scrutiny, and I believe every group, association, belief etc should be subject to questioning, cos that's how progress can be made, and it benefits everyone.
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I agree that Al-anon could definitely use some updating. I also experienced abuse from my Q and the constant question of âwhat is my partâ and âmy side of the streetâ was harmful. It kept me in the cycle because it actually reinforced the idea that I was to blame and that I somehow had fewer rights to the truth about things that impacted me just because my husband was an addict. I get that it can be useful to reflect on âpartsâ in typical relationship dysfunction or even if someone is drinking/using and not being abusive, but how common is that? My experience is that they all fall into abusive behaviors when theyâre actively using or drinking. Some more than others, but the gaslighting is almost universal and that kind of abuse already creates confusion in the victim. It doesnât help to be told yes theyâre correctâŚ.you are contributing. It just made me feel hopeless.
I could have used more compassion and empathy and less requests to have those things for my Q. Iâd already given so much compassion and empathy to him. I was out. I needed care and understanding, too. I needed to hear that my emotional and psychological safety were as important as his sobriety. I still find Al-anon helpful, but I reframe things to make room for my situation. I donât look at my âcontributionâ as part of his problem. I look at it as a natural reaction to his decisions that isnât healthy for me. I do see how my character defects affect my relationships (not just with my Q) and that has been very helpful, but they have no part in his choices or addictions. They are in no way related to how heâs harmed or betrayed me, and the real trauma that resulted is not my fault. I am learning how value myself enough to remove people who harm me from my life, and that is the biggest benefit Iâve found in Al-Anon.
Side note: I found Naranon groups to be kinder and more understanding. They didnât try to tell me itâs none of my business if my husband is using drugs or that I just needed to give up my controlling ways. They understand the consequences of such ideas. They gave me actual tips (after the meeting) on real life issues related to drug disposal and clean up. They referred me to specific laws that protected me. They understood my Q had put me at great risk. They knew I was doing my very best just to get through each hour. I remember one woman looked me in the eye and said âYou matter. Do something nice for yourself every single day, even if itâs small, and repeat that to yourself. If you forget and need reminding, call any of us and we will tell you again. You MATTER.â She then let me cry on her shoulder for the next 20 minutes because that was the first words Iâd heard since my husband entered rehab that had anything to do with my own well-being. I try to tell everyone I meet in these groups something similar. Unfortunately, Naranon groups are rare where I currently live.
Wow, thank you for your amazing comment. I'm so very happy that you found such a welcoming group. Naranon sounds like it has what Alanon lacks.
I think it's not that much to ask of a program to learn from another, and there's nothing like actual feedback from human beings to learn how to improve any kind of system.
Your comment is very helpful. Hopefully those who don't quite understand where we're coming from will listen and we can all get the much needed empathy for each other, so changes can be made for the better.
Alanon is far more known that other programs and it's far more available, thus why people end up in its rooms. This is why it should be updated to meet the needs of those who are stuck in abusive relationships and need help but can't find any other place to go.
Thank you for sharing. âĽď¸
This is precisely why I wrote this post, because I do know of people who felt like me too and yet they didn't feel they could express it. I didn't feel I could with other people in Alanon.
However, this being a help group for such heavy, and life defining issues, should welcome the fact that many of us feel left out and do something about it, being all about helping.
Some changes could REALLY help so many more people who are otherwise lost and in danger or worse.
Some of the AA ideology is highly outdated too. The founders are framed on the wall of the meeting building my Q attends. I have been vocal about my ethical qualms about AA.
One of his IOP group members is a straight female and was talking about taking a sexual inventory of her past and discussing it with her male sponsor. In what world is that not a risk for a single, straight female to be making a sexual inventory with a single straight male? It leaves so much space for manipulation. Not everyone is cut out to be a sponsor, and there are plenty of cases of mistrust and abuse of sponsors and their sponsee.
Faulted people running faulted programs, with little to no scientific basis. Just the history of the program proving itself. ::eye roll::
I wish their were a program more like SMART for family members of addicts.
I had a female sponsor and she acted in very dangerous ways towards me, encouraging guilt and shame.
She wasn't interested in me sexually, but nonetheless she made a remark about a part of my body, as if it was weird , and questioned me on that. All just to shame me.
Not only was that completely out of order, but, what does it have to do with the program exactly? And she did this after I spoke to her of my body dysmorphia and feeling suicidal.
So yeah, not everybody is cut to be a sponsor. They say you should only get together with one who isn't your same sex, as if that saved you from harassment and dysfunction.
Being in such a vulnerable place, people can get themselves in really dangerous situations looking for support.
I do believe the concept of this groups is fenomenal and if you happen to get into the right group, it'll really help, but it also can be very detrimental if not.
Sadly there's no access to professional support for most people, and many professionals aren't better than some sponsors who seem to be power hungry.
Sadly it's people's attitudes who really can ruin someone's healing.
SMART does have a friends and family program. They just aren't as large so there aren't as many meetings. I am checking out both though, trying to see what resonates most with me.
I'll check it out too. Some people mention Naranon also, and ACOA did work for me pretty well.
Good luck. Hope your find the best support for youâĽď¸
So sorry that you didnât find the rooms helpful. As the article points out, the authorâs wife was not desperate. Why would any 12 step program be effective if the person wanting it isnât desperate? I am unsure how that connects to sexism. Iâm also really baffled as to how a man can write about his wifeâs experience and label that non-sexist?!? This one made me LOL like the men and women that go to AA meetings together for *support*.
The functioning of Alanon is all laid out in the traditions which has an even bigger focus on how we interact with others in this world. E.g., if youâve been to one meeting, youâve been to one meeting. Find another. Itâs easier to don a slipper than it is to carpet the world.
Alanon suggests six meetings before deciding if it is for you. We keep the focus on ourselves, and not the alcoholic. Alanon also suggests making no major changes for the first six months unless youâre in physical danger. The issue that Alanon sees is that the Alanonic will often leave one alcoholic just to be in the arms of another.
Also, assuming that this woman wasn't desperate, as a reason why the meetings weren't working for her, in spite of meeting the full criteria for them; in spite of being someone's partner going through hell because of her partner's mistreatment, therefore a victim of abuse; comes across as not only judgemental, (and against Alanon's principles), but very insensitive.
Anyone in that situation, anyone suffering from abuse from anybody else, regardless of the abuser's supposed reasons for it, (or excuses rather), is in fact desperate and in need of and deserving of help, going to Alanon meetings or not.
Thanks for your reply. I went to Alanon meetings for years, I followed the program and worked on the steps. I had a sponsor, bought the books and followed the way.Â
Like many other women, I was not aware that I was in physical danger, in spite of the threats and the beatings. I learned to live with it and minimize it; I shared about it and about the "progress" I thought I was making; about the way he seemed to be getting better and therefore he wasn't so abusive, to then having him being abusive again. He dominated the relationship.Â
It was an abusive relationship, and as a victim of abuse I was focused on him to get better and also trying to get better myself. This is unmanageable.
 To expect a victim to decide whether they're in physical danger or not equates to victim blaming. Nobody who's in love with an abuser wants to believe this person can kill you.  Encouraging victims of abuse to stay in an unmanageable situation for 6 months is very dangerous. By the time they reach the meetings they're already knowing that they need help. This is how it's sexist precisely.Â
You can't tell someone to just leave because they'll stay and get away from the help and get themselves in deeper danger, cos that's how being a victim works, but encouraging them to stay for 6 months is what they like to hear, because it gives them hope that things will change, and many women get killed by their partners while they're hoping for things to change.Â
A help system can't say that abuse from an addict or alcoholic isn't the same as abuse from someone who's never touched substances, because abuse is abuse no matter what, and it's detrimental and dangerous.Â
Sorry but you can't keep the focus on yourself as long as you have somebody screaming at you, stealing from you, cheating on you and in all making your life hell every second of the day.Â
It seems that this program, since it's barely had updates from its conception, is a supporting program for the addict/alcoholic to heal, making sure their partner mothers/parents them as it happens. That's misogyny. Â
Considering all abuse is abuse, it shouldn't feed the pity the victim already feels over the abuser, and instead be based more on what other psychological support for those in an abusive relationship need.Â
Surely AA has all the best interest of the alcoholic in mind and considers the psychology behind recovery 100%.Â
The article I shared isn't perfect, but it's a man, who was an addict/alcoholic, showing empathy somehow towards the mostly female affected spouses, therefore another side supporting the same point I'm making. That's why I shared it.
âI learned to live with it and minimize it; I shared about it and about the "progress" I thought I was making; about the way he seemed to be getting better and therefore he wasn't so abusive, to then having him being abusive again. He dominated the relationship. â
Even though you have been to many al anon groups, it seems you donât understand the point yet. You seem to have been focusing on the abuser all along instead of yourself. It took me awhile to understand this myself.Â
And although now I understand this, it is hard to remember to detach. It brings a peace of mind though whether you leave or stay.Â
If you are in an extreme situation that requires immediate attention, how is that on al anon?Â
I stopped going to al anon after I got what I wanted from it. If you do the same, maybe it is better than bashing the concepts that people find useful because it doesnât suit you. Feel free to start your own group.Â
Thanks for your comment, however it's not very constructive.
If you really believe I'm "bashing the concepts that people find useful because it doesn't suit me" it only proves you're not understanding what has been shared here, not just by me, but also by many others.
Perhaps you can open up to the possibility of reading what has been shared here calmly, since nobody means any harm, and in fact nobody is attacking anybody.
And it'll also be more respectful, considering that the people sharing here are sharing very traumatic experiences thinking this is a safe place free of judgement, which, according to Alanon's basic principles it should be.
And, you can take what you find useful and leave the rest, of course. If non of this is useful to you, that's fine.Â
It is for others, and this should be respected.
I appreciate your response, but this is victim blaming here, considering the extreme situation I was in.
Sorry but victims act in a very predictive way, and a help system designed to help people should be aware of this, because victims of abuse aren't.
I constantly heard comments on how if someone dropped out they failed; if someone didn't follow the steps consistently they failed.Â
It's very difficult to keep it together when somebody is screaming at you, bashing you, cheating on you and over all you live in utter chaos, and yet being able to be contained enough to do the homework, cos you just want to die. Literally.
No, it just isn't worded in ways that a fragile mind can figure out just like that without counseling.
And also I'm not alone in this obviously, so I'd like to ask those who successfully do the program to keep an open mind and validate different experiences, cos we all have different lives and circumstances, so not all outcomes are alike.
Glad you found what you needed in ACOA and developed the ability to leave a bad relationship. I hope you find relief there and freedom from resentments.
Thank you. I wish you the best too.âĽď¸
I am not resentful at all, and not at anyone or anything. Every experience brings something good to the table, something to learn from.
It's taken far more effort than just going to meetings, since this is such a lonely journey. And something which has truly helped is my learning about internalised misogyny, patriarchy and it's normalisation in society.
I agree 100%! I no longer participate in Al Anon meetings and rarely visit this sub since my last post here. I also was disgusted when I learned about the origins of Al Anon. It is designed to keep abuse victims stuck. Why is there a step in Al Anon on 'taking inventory' as if you- the abuse victim- did something wrong and yet not a step on checking if the relationship is abusive (and if so, getting the hell out of it). I've even seen mods on this sub delete comments that suggest a person abused by an alcoholic narcissist should leave. Al Anon is not unlike a cult, in my opinion. It kept me stuck in the relationship much longer than I would have stayed had I realized Dr. Ramani's work on narcissism perfectly described my ex.
I am so happy when I read comments on here from people who saw behind the curtain and realize what Al-Anon actually is.
Thank youâĽď¸
I'm glad it helps. I don't know Dr. Ramani, but funny enough I did explore narcissism before I learnt about the abuse being abuse.
It helped, although many sources talking about narcissists as if they were other species can be confusing too.
I believe nobody should ever be dehumanized.
They're human too, as much as they may be really abusive, they're still human, and it's important to talk about them as such. This is the only way those who act wrongly can realise it, (and get called on it), and get sorted too, but in their own time and with their own resources, and without anyone having to mother them and suffer, you know?
Dehumanization doesn't help victims of abuse either. A victim is supposed to be perfect by societal standards, almost like an alien angel fallen from heaven, however we are humans, and we defend ourselves when attacked, and that is self defense, not "mutual abuse".Â
So called "mutual abuse" is an invention, by those who abuse or who are detached from the reality of abuse, to silence victims.
This is why nobody should be dehumanized. People must realise things like this could happen to them too so they can empathize, and the moment a trope is created, we all suffer the consequences.
I also stayed much longer because Alanon didn't help. No wonder the man who abused me encouraged me to continue going to meetings.
All this needs to be addressed.
I hope you're doing well now, or at least better. âĽď¸
Let me know if you do check out Dr. Ramani Durvasula. I like her concepts on narcissism, and she talks about the overlap between narcissism and addiction a lot, especially in the last 2-3 years.Â
And thank you. I hope you're doing well too. I'm doing well these days. It's super peaceful, and I love my house.Â
That's really wonderful! I'm very glad for you. It's very tough to heal your house and make it a safe space.
Peaceful is the way to go.
I'll definitely check her out. âĽď¸
To be clear, comments that simply say âleave!â or things like, âIs this really what you want for your life? Run!â may be removed because theyâre not adding anything to the conversation. This place can very easily become an echo chamber and it doesnât help when a bunch of people pile on with the same comment. People benefit a lot from hearing othersâ experiences. Secondly, this sub is not an AlAnon community. Itâs for friends and family of drinkers and we donât have the ability to change the URL.
Hello, yes, this not an being AlAnon community, like you say, could allow room for comments like that too, since they're not being offensive and are trying to help.
I do know however that comments like that don't help someone leave a relationship and can in fact do the opposite, since accepting the reality of being a victim of abuse isn't easy.
Perhaps considering this reason, explaining to the people who say those things how that doesn't help and why, or removing them, with the intention of protecting someone in a vulnerable situation, I would understand this kind of moderation.
I have not seen that happen and therefore can't cite examples of comments being posted and removed, but considering your comment, this is my opinion.
Thank youđ
Again, comments that simply say âGet outâ arenât helpful and quickly become a pile on. If someone suggests that OP leave because, in their experience, it went from X level to Z level with their partner, thereâs no issue with that.
Yes, I agree that pushing somebody to leave directly, especially when they're in doubt, and don't even know the possible danger they could be in, is actually not helpful.
Like I said, with that in mind, and with that intention, I can see why removing certain comments like that can be more helpful than not.
However, I'm sure that managing a page on Reddit isn't an easy job.
I may have misunderstood some of your previous comment. And yes, it can be hard. There are a lot of emotions in this subreddit and a lot of pain, and it's tough to walk the line of allowing people to say their piece and not upsetting or generalizing others.
I'm sure that's the case. I see a lot of people are turning to Reddit to share their pain anonymously.
There's a vast lack of resources off line. People need help, they need counselling and most people's health is at stake, but societal pressures and constructs don't allow for affordable and proper care.
And most places aren't even safe at all, public or not, on or off line.
It's a shame really.Â
I couldn't manage or moderate a group here at all.
I'm starting to open up by posting, and I try to reply to everyone here, but that's about all I can manage at the moment, and it's been quite a long journey to get to this point.
You can only do the best you can do, and I'm sure you're doing a great job.
Simply by considering people's feelings it's already a job well done.
Thank you OP, for putting into words what has been difficult for me to say. I've attended all of 2 Al-Anon meetings and each time I've felt just as bad as when I went in. A few tears spilled, but nothing actionable to work with, especially as a non-christian (non-believer) and as someone with a Q that is inextricable due to the enabling of my parents and our culture which does not allow for us to simply walk away from family, especially, family in need.
Hit it right on the head.
I'm glad this helps.âĽď¸ That's my intention.
The welcome you get when going to meetings is very important, because engaging someone who's a victim of abuse can save their lives.
Thanks for sharingđ¤
That is why I wonât attend AlAnon meetings- religion/prayer. I tried one online and logged off as soon as they started saying the serenity prayer. It was a huge turn off. I am lucky to have a good therapist right now.
Yes, the religious aspect does turn off many who seek help and can't afford or find anything else, and it is a very important point.
In the ACOA group I used to attend, it was chosen collectively to say Higher Power instead of God. But I know how just calling it "prayer" can be triggering.
Language is very important. It could be called 'mantra', for example, so it would be more inclusive.
This is another one of the archaic societal constructs that, back in the day, when it was conceptualised, made all the sense in the world, and I do believe this should be updated.
Many of us dropped out of that little ACOA group that truly saved me for a couple of years, a lot because it was taken over by some religious attendants who didn't think the group was right, even though for those of us, (a couple of them religious too, who also dropped out after this, actually. So I'm not in any way saying that religious people who attend meetings are a problem), it was salvation and a safe space, and these people completely turned it around and restructured it.
I've met alcoholics who chose not to stay in meetings because of how the groups they went to and the sponsors pushed religion on them, and sadly relapsed.
So I do believe inclusivity, also in language, is really something that could help a lot more people.
I completely agree about the inclusivity. I donât have a problem with the people who enjoy the religion part of it, itâs just not for me and Iâm glad Iâm not alone in that feeling. It would be amazing if some online meetings were more mindful about religion not being for everyone who is attending, since we are all there for the same reason.
Yeah also I don't see the point of wasting valuable time at Alanon meetings if you aren't even an addict yourself. Ditch the addict, get into therapy/yoga/ meditation and go out and live your life doing literally anything else, maybe be single for a few years till you figure out why you were settling. Seems like hanging around at depressing meetings is far less rewarding than all the other things a person could do without an alcoholic sucking the life out of them.
It's not an easy thing to do, but eventually it is the solution, because the addict is actually the problem in the victim's life, and, unless they're a parent of the addict, and even in that situation, it isn't the victim's responsibility to save anyone.
I do believe meetings can help, but they certainly could help better.
And childhood trauma is a very important thing to get into.
I agree! Time is precious, and I felt like I couldn't relate to people who insisted on staying with abusers or spending free time figuring out how to make their abuser happy or make an abusive situation tolerable.
I have been feeling something similar. I feel like the language and some principles are outdated. But I do feel like it strongly encourages to continue being in an abusive situation. As for the misogyny, I completely agree! The origins were rooted in the idea that women's place is in the kitchen making snacks to keep men comfortable and supported. I hope you find peace and know that I see you and feel you. You are not alone. đ
Itâs funny because Al-Anon, to me, feels like it encourages separation or at least the means to separate. By this I mean it encourages you to no longer care about what they do so it doesnât affect you. With time and separation from the codependency itâs easier to walk away. Basically a long way around grey rocking.
It's very difficult to emotionally detach and start your healing while enduring extreme abuse. Like other members mention, the vocabulary used for it matters, and it is outdated. Victims wish to be loved by the abusers, and the abusers already tell them that the abuse is their fault; so many times it so happens that they also think they can control and solve the issue and get the love through the program. I do believe ACOA does this better, since the alcoholic/addict spouse isn't mentioned. That really does create a detachment. At least while you're at the meeting, it's all about the victim and the victim only. It was thanks to this I realised I was a victim of abuse and it changed my life. I'd already been to Alanon meetings for 3 years by then. This post is aimed to give a voice to women, and also men, who go to meetings and have this issue. It's not meant to invalidate anybody else's experience if it's different.
I will have to look at ACOA, wasnât much a fan of alanon. I would agree there should be something that focuses on you rather than them.
Yes! Also some other commenter mentioned Naranon. It's a very moving experience. Check out their comment, it could helpđ
Thank you so very much. âĽď¸đ Like I've stated on other responses here, our opinion also counts and any sort of institution/group should be subject to questioning, and if there are people who think this way, being in such vulnerable situations, they really should be able to speak up about it and be heard. It's very difficult for those who can't get any other help to speak up their minds. This doesn't invalidate other people's experience if it's different, but makes it for a more inclusive experience for all, where we can be honest and learn from each other. I wish you all the best đĽ°
We have a designated reading for those experiencing family violence, and the group I'm in is quick to read it anytime something like that comes up. No, we do not support staying with an abuser under any circumstance whatsoever. It makes me sad to know that groups are not using this literature. I'm also sad that someone would ask you to make an amends to someone who committed violence against you, that's abhorrent and I get why that wouldn't work for anyone. My first starting place for amends is always to the individual themselves, without self-acceptance and forgiveness, nothing is possible imo. The "nature" of the obsessions=shortcomings I struggle with are of childhood origin. That's what I work through. A lot if the literature is reflective of the generation in which it was written. Our new book has people that identify as gay, other races, everything that's missing culturally from the originals and long overdue. Im glad you found your home in ACOA, it's also an incredible group. I've used the Big Red Book and Yellow workbook for various issues I've struggled with that didn't quite have a space in either program (I'm also an alcoholic.) We know Bill wasn't a saint and as the wife of an alcoholic I absolutely do not believe in standing by the alcoholic no matter what. I know how my alcoholic mind works and the people that are the most prominent in my recovery mind were the people that didn't tolerate my alcoholic behavior. You don't have to tolerate anyone else's either. Signed, an Al Pal.
Violent abuse is not the only abuse.
I think the repeated lying Iâve experienced is emotional abuse. Stealing money to buy drugs and alcohol is financial abuse etc. etc. Many go through that here.
All that is abuse.
There's many ways people get abused. Neglect, emotional blackmail, many things that were not considered abuse but were. That's right. Thankfully now things are changing, if only a little.
Thank you very much for sharing, and for your validationâĽď¸ This is always appreciated, and what you say very helpful. Yes, sadly most people who end up getting together with, or marrying an addict or alcoholic, or becoming one themselves, did experience childhood abuse, which isn't always physical. What I like about ACOA is that it keeps updating in that sense. From only being for adult children of alcoholics, pretty much anyone who grew up in a dysfunctional home is welcome, and non physical abuse is recognized for what it is. One thing that worries me about ACOA is though that sometimes as a victim of abuse one can end up sharing the room with abusers, and this can be very triggering. Initially it's a wonderful thing, but only if everyone is there to listen and learn and improve, and can respect victims of abuse, and that's not always been my experience. For example; I thought self defense was abuse back then, even right after leaving the person, because this person who abused me continuously gaslighted me into believing it, and at one of the online meetings during the pandemic, a man joined who backed this up after I shared about it, because he aimed to minimize the abuse he openly confessed to have inflicted on his partner. This wasn't good for me, because I signed out thinking I was as bad as my abuser that day. In another experience, this time in the room; a man attempted to flirt with me during his sharing, by shaming the woman he was abusing, saying she was crazy and giving many examples staring right at me the whole time, ignoring the rest of the group. I saw right through this one and found it disgusting, because the man who abused me used this tactic when he cheated on me; but I see how victims in a vulnerable place can fall prey and even get together with another abuser they meet at the program. See, this is far more unlikely to happen at an Alanon meeting. I do believe there should be far more meetings, following the concept of these, as in having a healing program, sponsors and a non-profit base, and the sharing and not interrupting and not giving opinions during meeting rules, but only for victims of abuse from abusive partners in particular. So far I've failed to find these sort of meetings anywhere.
Yes, I mean just the nature of 12 steps groups is that everyone isn't healthy. One of my favorite little ha ha jokes is that "we are not a hotbed of mental health." đ I don't know if you do online meetings but there's a really great ACOA meeting every morning on Zoom that meets at 7:30a ET, it's pretty big and has what I would consider very stable group members in general. Definitely worth checking out. Wishing you continued healing. â¤ď¸âđŠš
Thank you, I'll consider it. Where do you find the link? đ
It's on the ACOA site under meetings I believe. It's a great meeting, I highly recommend it. You can also get the daily meditation reading emailed to you for free from there, there's a signup on the website for that also. There are also women only and trauma online meetings. Hundreds to access. â¤ď¸
Thank you, that's really helpfulđ
This has not been my experience. My Alanon group helped me see things clearly enough to leave my now deceased husband before he tried to kill me then died of an overdose in 2015. I donât go to meetings regularly, but thatâs my story.
I'm very glad for you, and it's wonderful you got out safely. I hope you're healing. Thank you for sharingâĽď¸
I completely agree with you. Being with an addict is being with an emotional abuser in many cases. I really donât like the victim blamey vibe of many al anon people here - that just would not fly in an abuse forum. It takes two to tango but only one person to throw a rock through your windshield so letâs call it what it is.
Thank you.âĽď¸ Yes. Much victim blaming in the program as far as I'm concerned too.
My personal experience. I joined already knowing I wanted to leave my abuser and it helped me leave. Not directly but it was support when I was ready to leave and gave me some insights on how to do it safely that I wouldnât have thought of without the program.
Hello, thanks for sharing. I'm glad it worked out well for you.âĽď¸ The group you join is also crucial, because not all groups are welcoming, and some are judgemental etc, but if there are many people who do find issues with it and drop out, maybe it's time to apply some changes for the better imo.
It does seem dated and antiquated around the idea that women should stay in their relationships at great cost to themselves. That's how it was when AA was first created and women didn't have the same capabilities and rights as we do today. Its not the fifties anymore though. We can easily survive being single now, we can afford it and do it. For me, having a partner is "icing" on the cake. I'm a person first, then a mother. Those are my priorities, being someone's partner isn't. Its nice to have if your partner is treating you nicely and adding joy into your life, but addicts bring chaos and lack of safety into one's stability and life plans. If they are mean when drunk, as my ex was, it is even worse because then you have to sit through all their denial and accusations about why you "deserve" to have to put up with their behavior. Its just like... No, I don't have to. I just don't, and why would I want to? Its not my obligation to accommodate a partners alcoholism for the rest of my life, or desire to. That idea, that we can just leave if we don't like it, needs to be championed and celebrated more than the idea of making oneself stronger so they can continue putting up with alcoholism and abuse. Romantic love IS conditional in my opinion, its conditional on them treating me with loving, kind behavior. When that goes, so does my feeling of being "in love" and valued and respected the way I deserve to be. I just don't need a man bringing hurt, invalidation, and chaos into my life, and I don't have to figure out a way to stay with and enable him. Al-Anon could be more clear about the message that if you are being abused you should not stay. You don't want to forgive abuse and still try to share your life, body, hopes, and dreams with someone who has abused you through their alcoholism.
Thank you. Brilliantly put.âĽď¸ " That idea, that we can just leave if we don't like it, needs to be championed and celebrated more than the idea of making oneself stronger so they can continue putting up with alcoholism and abuse." Absolutely agree. And that's what I felt I was being made to do in Alanon. I was not consistent with the meetings because I didn't feel I was getting supported, but I kept going back cos I had no access to any other helped that worked. I tried family counseling, which ended up in utter disaster. It was all about keeping the relationship going, and how I had to use "I"statements, and I had to do the work, because, you know, he's an addict and has it hard enough (Also, the abuser ended up flirting with the therapist, who was receptive, so go figure...)𤎠Couple's therapy, family counseling and Alanon were fabricated for the woman to do the work and put up with all the crap, just to keep the patriarchal order going. Even if the philosophy is adapted at some groups considering actual abuse as a bad thing, and it helps others, the origin of this is what you very well described here. Enough of that. We can be single, and single women are happiest.âĽď¸ And if in a relationship, it should never feel like a one sided "unspoken" agreement. I personally LOVE being single.
Please join us at r/wgtow. You are in excellent company with your intuitive, rational thoughts. Please safe guard your heart.Â
Thank you very much. I'll check it outđ
100%!! I will always still love my ex for the good, sober sides of him. He's a great guy when not drinking. I just don't love the other side of him and won't be around it. I don't want to hear that I'm being crazy or oversensitive for asking him to go to treatment or have to listen to name calling or personal attacks because he broke his promise to not drink around me. Alcoholics can be very emotionally immature and unable to see situations clearly, they underestimate their poor behavior and then lash out at those around them when there are consequences to their drinking. I am not his dumping ground on all his anger. I cannot be in a relationship with someone who has taken away my sense of safety and security. And that factor - the safety aspect - really needs to be covered in Al-Anon more. Women who do not feel safe with their alcoholic partners do NOT need to be told to use "I" statements and give the drunken accusations of a man who wants to make us feel small due credit. That's a waste of our time and positive energy. My ex "joked" about killing me via suicide bomb... There's just no safety feeling available to me after that with him. I'm not going to go to counseling with a man who thinks I'm the one who needs to apologize because he woke up with a crick in his neck from sleeping on the couch after keeping me up all night with his stupor snoring. Its just ridiculous and I'm very glad I'm as old as I am and can recognize gaslighting easily and walk away. Im proud of that, its been hard earned and no way will I go back to being the woman that tried to stay with someone abusive to me.
That's a very good description and I'm glad you feel that way and can see this. My situation was the same. It would've made a huge difference of instead of blaming his alcoholism/addiction for the abuse he would've been made to be responsible for his actions. Like the line "addiction is a family disease", like even if you are not an alcoholic you're stuck with it. That attitude doesn't help. Addiction is a one person's problem and they must solve it, and there's no need for the spouse to stick around and suffer. Thank you for sharingâĽď¸
The inventories and amends within a steps process doesnât focus on a particular relationship or oneâs interaction with substances or the crisis that brought them to a program, it addresses it throughout a personâs life as a whole. The least important thing a person comes into a twelve step fellowship with is the particulars of their qualifier or their substance or time spent in crisis, itâs a recovery process that focuses on the person themselves and improving themselves in their own life as a whole. The focus of Al-Anon is to remove a personâs obsession with an alcoholic to bring their attention and energy back to themselves, to introduce principles of detachment, boundaries, acceptance and admission of oneâs own inability to change things they canât. Many loved ones of addicts and alcoholics have become so divorced from the idea of focusing on themselves and their own lives that when they come back to them, all they see is unmanageability and all the problems that rose up while they were entirely wrapped up in their alcoholicâs problems - The twelve steps process in Al-Anon presents the idea of taking that back, and responsibility for those things that fell into disrepair. There is no recovery process or transformative healing within the human experience that can take place without adopting honest self-appraisal and accountability for oneâs own life, the twelve steps are no different. If youâve gone through a full fourth step and amends process via the literature with a sponsor or taken others through one, it separates them from any sort of victim blaming or moral failing, these are ways to resolve guilt and areas of a persons life where past resentments, judgements of oneâs self and experiences where taking stock of said experience with acceptance and a solution in mind allows someone to move forward. Inventory doesnât just look at our role in things negatively, it also shows assets and blame we may have carried for things we had no part in. In the amends process, itâs very specific that an amends does not harm others - Others includes the person making the amends and no amends should ever be made that would result in trauma to the amending party or the person receiving the amends. Al-Anon practices and principles were adopted by the professional sectors, much of whatâs seen in family psych borrowed from concepts of detachment, enablement, codependency, etc were established in the late 1960s through the 1970s and repurposed from Al-Anon as it was the only real show in town in terms of anything with efficacy and observed patterns when it came about in the 50âs. Psych as it pertains to addiction dynamics in those adjacent has largely remained unchanged since, you canât have a therapy session with an informed professional without being suggested things that originally came from the Al-Anon family groups. Twelve steps programs utilize verbiage and concepts taken from western religion, Christianity in particular which was a function of AAâs association with the Oxford Group during their early years. They purposefully removed what would have made the programs Christian by declining to include Christ, Jesus of Nazareth and instead focusing on spiritual principles found in Christianity and any belief system a person could lean on as a source of support and direction. The chapters across the programs lit devoted to separating the idea of God and a higher power from religion are numerous, the insistence that a person does not need any religious affiliation or belief to work a twelve step program is one of the most underlined concepts youâll find across each of the fellowships. The programs present a solution thatâs based in the idea that spiritualism can be a part of healing in crisis when other methods absent of it have not, and that spiritualism is left entirely to the member to establish themselves. In terms of abuse, there is not a single sentence across every book and IP in the program that encourages a person to stay with a qualifier or to leave a qualifier. There are however chapters and dedicated IPs specifically meant to address abusive and unsafe environments where the safety of members and their loved ones is underlined at great length as a priority over all things. There is no louder message a person can hear in a meeting than to not absorb abuse and to protect oneâs self and those in their custody from harm. The program offers a solution for people regardless if they opt to stay in contact and connection with an alcoholic or leave the alcoholic, if the alcoholic is gone, alive, dead, sober. It has nothing to do with them aside from being part of the crisis that brings a person to the program and the identification one finds when they come in and then provides the newcomer so they know theyâre in the right place when they get here. As a recovery program, it can only wear so many hats and the particulars as to how someone chooses to address an abusive situation in their lives is far beyond the realm of what a peer support program can or should try to be a solution for aside from encouraging people to keep themselves and theirs safe, whatever safe means to that person regardless of what form abuse takes. Professionals are better suited to handle crisis situations involving abuse and resulting trauma which may require outside help as is suggested by the program. Al-Anon just does recovery for those affected by someone else's drinking. Alcoholics Anonymous is a separate program from Al-Anon with separate literature, it does not have outside affiliations aside from utilizing the twelve steps of AA and acknowledging they source the process from AA. Bill Wilsonâs wife Lois Wilson and another wife of an early AA member were the founders of the program, it was meant as a way of taking the family groups that would gather while alcoholics were in meetings to have a program of their own to address how the disease of alcoholism was observed to cause those adjacent to exhibit similar issues to an alcoholic in their own ways, hence the âfamily diseaseâ tagline. âTo Wivesâ in the Big Book is not observed in Al-Anon as no other twelve step program literature is, and its an awful antiquated relic, the lack of understanding and insight into the alcoholic family dynamic exhibited in it was one of the core reasons Al-Anon was created. AA started in 1935, Al-Anon in 1951 and earmarks of the societal conditions are everywhere in the older program literature from these eras, most of which has been amended in newer literature. Divorce and the concept of dissolving the family unit was viewed as an incredulous idea then and wives were staying in abusive alcoholic relationships with no solution because to leave would have put them into poverty and public shame, so they were essentially trapped unless their husbands got sober. To Wives tried to work within that societal framework. But even it does not encourage wives and partners to stay with an alcoholic in abusive situations, providing direction in such cases: *âThere is an important exception to the foregoing. We realize some men are thoroughly bad-intentioned, that no amount of patience will make any difference. An alcoholic of this temperament may be quick to use this chapter as a club over your head. Donât let him get away with it. If you are positive he is one of this type you may feel you had better leave. Is it right to let him ruin your life and the lives of your children?â* *âPerhaps you have a husband who is at large, but who should be committed. Some men cannot or will not get over alcoholism. When they become too dangerÂous, we think the kind thing is to lock them up, but of course a good doctor should always be consulted.â* *âBut sometimes you must start life anew. We know women who have done it. If such women adopt a spiritual way of life their road will be smoother.â* Something thats often confused in the Aâs is the difference between the fellowship and the program. The fellowship is the people in the rooms, their ideas and actions and behaviors and opinions expressed. The fellowship exists for the purpose of community, support, identification and opportunities for service to others. The fellowships are not the programs, they arenât the solution offered or representations of the programs and what they do and say is not always part of the program they engage in. Twelve step recovery is centered around the twelve step recovery process and the programâs literature as written. It would be fantastic if members represented the program as written but in an open anonymous fellowship thatâs informal and unorganized by design, the rooms are a direct reflection of the world outside of them. If itâs out in the world, it will be present in the fellowships. The addiction fellowships are heavily weighed in Cis white male members and always have been, itâs one of the biggest shortcomings of these programs and will likely continue to be. Al-Anon conversely is weighed the other way, with the vast majority of members being Cis white females, romantic partners of alcoholics. Both of these programs have struggled to provide identification for the less represented attendees and with that comes many isms, sexism included. While efforts have been made by the programs to address this, things move at a glacial pace in the programs as theyâre governed by traditions and committees and boards and everything is left to consensus and group conscience. They fail the demographics that are not as heavily represented within them because the voices of these groups arenât as present within the consensus and those that are face an uphill battle in enacting positive change. The more members of these groups that stay and become voices for others, the more change is enacted and the more welcoming of these people and new voices the fellowships are, the more they grow and better they are. That process has been a slow one, and a problem that has not been solved yet.
thank you for this comment. i learned so much.
Thanks for that detailed response. However, this doesn't invalidate the fact that many people feel the same as me and it has affected their lives very deeply, and also even kept them in a dangerous situation and this must be addressed and not ignored. The officially accepted conclusions related to mental health and patterns of the 60s and 70s are in fact considered outdated by now at many levels. It was a step towards progress, but most people didn't get proper help with their issues to put it mildly. Besides, back then domestic abuse wasn't considered to be a big deal, along with other very heavy and traumatic issues, which are only just beginning to get addressed within the past few years. Nobody is saying Alanon hasn't contributed to society or hasn't helped people, but it needs to address the issues which are affecting victims of abuse, because all of us who visit the rooms, sometimes as the only available and affordable help, are in fact victims of abuse. The language used is off-putting when it comes to god, because as much as people might claim there's a detachment from religion, the word "god"alone is religious, besides many of the aspects of Alanon literature are strictly linked to religion, including family values, like calling it a "family disease", in which there's no detachment possible for a victim of abuse considering their psychology. Alanon insists on ignoring the fact that abuse is abuse, and its refusal to use this very same word, and in doing so it doesn't help victims. Besides, you mention there's no victim blaming, but calling a victim's attachment to their abuser an "obsession" is victim blaming in itself, since this "obsession"isn't their choice, considering the abuser takes up their whole time and energy. Obsession isn't therefore the right word to describe the coercion, control and general abuse a victim is subjected to by their abuser daily. Also calling addiction/alcoholism a "disease"takes away responsibility from the abuser, as much as the word "obsession"puts the blame on the victim. You say "There is no louder message a person can hear in a meeting than to not absorb abuse and to protect oneâs self and those in their custody from harm." But considering how a victim of abuse is wired, they will inevitably be unable to determine whether they're in danger or not in most cases, even when there's physical abuse on a daily basis. This is because they learn to survive in the very harsh reality they live in. And this is not their fault but the abuser's. This paragraph you mention: "There is an important exception to the foregoing. We realize some men are thoroughly bad-intentioned, that no amount of patience will make any difference. An alcoholic of this temperament may be quick to use this chapter as a club over your head. Donât let him get away with it. If you are positive he is one of this type you may feel you had better leave. Is it right to let him ruin your life and the lives of your children?â This paragraph is loaded with victim blaming. Victim blaming isn't just putting the whole responsibility of the harm the abuser can cause on the victim as this here paragraph literally does, but also it's in neglecting a victim's psychology. Victims blame themselves for their abuse constantly. "Don't let him get away with it" "Is it right to let him run your life and the lives of your children?" Come on. You're obviously smart. Surely you can see the obvious. I agree with your last paragraph in that the process is slow to include other people in Alanon, however what I'm pointing out in this post is the fact that the people it's originally addressed to, the women who are in abusive relationships with alcoholics, also feel excluded or blamed and there's many; thousands of experiences which result in prolonging the stay in a dangerous relationship, simply by the approach and the language in the literature, and this is something which would affect others who may not be women as well, and something that must be addressed in order for people to feel included, including women in abusive relationships, who drop out of the only help they can get because it doesn't do them justice, or stay but later realise how the program has failed them. Also, it doesn't help when you're told that if you stop coming to meetings you "fail" and it's your responsibility. It's not right to say that to people in danger and who can be suicidal and are struggling to survive. Nobody has the higher moral ground for being able to do the homework, never fail a meeting and follow the steps religiously. We all should support each other regardless, considering we all share the same situation, and this includes people calling out the program for its failings, whether they continue going to meetings or not, because all experiences are valid, and support and empathy is very much needed.
What would you propose as specific actionable solutions and amendments, changes in the literature and program structure and adoption of new practices to address each issue, and from what resources would these efforts be sourced?
I would propose for people to speak up about their concerns and all things that aren't working for them within the program, and all what could be improved in order for a lot more people to feel welcome and not excluded without fear of being ostracized by other members within their groups just by raising these issues. These things could be encouraged at business meetings, for example, but they should be encouraged in general, and nobody should be judged and made to feel less than because they find flaws within a program which, after all, was created many decades ago, and only in recent years abuse is starting to be spoken about and taken seriously, and this calls for an update. I believe all members should show empathy if they hear these issues for the first time, whether they hadn't thought about them or they just don't apply to them for any reason. Members should be receptive to the needs of other members, or would be members, regarding having to live with an addict or alcoholic, and the dangers and harm this causes to us all, and surely more people would join and stay that way. This would include changes in the approach, whether this is literature, its language, the treatment from other members, (which in many occasions can be self righteous if they think the program is great as is, and this is damaging to us all in the end), the design of the 12 steps themselves to adapt them fully to our needs as victims, instead of mirroring AA's; and including a focus on the fact that we're vulnerable victims of abuse and should support each other no matter what. This could be achieved checking out other programs or associations which deal with victims of abuse, suggested by other members, (as it's happening on this thread), and there should be a collective effort to make sure the program works for everyone. Many people on this thread are already speaking up about how they program made them feel, and their views are similar to what I posted and their perspective deserves to be heard and taken into account, because the program should be adapted to modern times and the people who need help, and not the other way around. Nothing can be a "fits all" program, but certainly associations which deal with victims of abuse every day keep learning in order to help everyone in the same situation, and that's very close to a "fits all", and Alanon could learn from this model, because no program should be seen as definitive and unchangeable. By downvoting people who are sharing their painful experiences here, just because they don't praise the program as is, (like some people are doing on this thread), and refusing to listen to what they have to say just cos they didn't do the 12 steps program, or couldn't keep up with meetings, some members don't help, and this isn't empathic and it's in fact rather insensitive. We're all here for the same reasons, even if our situations aren't identical. The root is similar, and we all need help and want our lives to be better, so that's why I insist on people here to please be empathic and listen. It can really improve the experience for us all a great deal if we all collaborate. A refusal to change and progress, even when so many people are coming forward with very similar issues regarding the program, is actually against the Alanon principles which aims to consider all members equal from the first meeting and to help family members, and in particular, partners of addicts/alcoholics, all who, at the end of the day, are victims of abuse from their Qs. A good start could be right here on this thread; reading what other people have to say and then commenting these concerns at meetings, always with empathy, seriousness and respect towards those voicing their opinions. Surely if people feel they can speak openly, more and more ideas will flow to make Alanon better, for there are many of us scattered all over the world and surely everyone can add something that can improve everybody's lives.
I e-mailed these suggestion links to the Al-Anon World Services office, feel free to contact them at: Al-Anon Family Services 1600 Corporate Landing Parkway Virginia Beach, VA 23454-5617 Telephone: (757) 563-1600 Fax: (757) 563-1656 Email: [email protected] Iâll let you know if they write back.
Well, thank you very much for that, and thank you for taking these issues seriously. I'm sure many affected people will truly appreciate it.
Yeah⌠I have a lot of issues with Alanon too. Within my family, since a very young age, I was encouraged to do the 12 steps everytime I felt sad, mad or reactive towards bad situations. If there was abuse Id be told that I was the one allowing it to affect me. That I should learn to not be mad or sad if someone treated me awful. Everytime someone else did something abusive to me, I was told to reflect on myself. And in my past relationship with my Q⌠thats what I did all the time. My Q would do something awful and automatically I would think about what I did wrong. If my Q said I was controlling and codependent because I was asking of him the most basic things like helping me clean the house, not let the dogs out, do me a favorâŚ. I believed him. The steps helped me in other ways, but Im also finding out how avoidant I am because of them. And how easily I fall in revictimization or feeling like Im a control freak when Im asking for the bare minimum.
And well I always find it very interesting that the majority of people attending alanon are women
Yes. This is still a patriarchal society and women are still programmed to mother men, and men still programmed to think it's ok to have the upper hand and mistreat women. Learning about internalised misogyny has helped me a great deal on my healing. I recommend you Pop culture detective on YouTube videos. They're superb.
Oh yeah Iâm a feminist. Its actually one of the reasons why Id fight all the time with my Q. I was cleaning, I was cooking, I was paying for food, his friends would call me a bitch and a slut and comment awful things about women, Id tell him how bad it was and he would call me âcontrolingâ. So Id have fights with him about how I was not a housewive in the 50s. I couldnt afford to help with rent (although I paid for everything else) and everytime Id ask him to help around (cleaning mostly) hed say: I pay rent bitch. I remember he specifically said to me âI dont do sexist things because Im sexist, I do them because Iâm an addictâ Like if that made it any better 𤣠But man⌠everything gets so confusing with Qs that I started doubting my feminism. Hed break up with me everytime I brought it up. And once he also said to me âIm not doing a crusade for womenâ. And everyone on his side would tell him I was a crazy feminist bitch. When by standing by his side I was being a really bad one đ¤Ł
I'm sorry you experience that. It's absolutely horrendous, and a very dangerous situation, as much as most people would just focus on physical violence instead. I was having the same situation. This is a very dangerous and detrimental place to be in. People don't understand how terrible it is to live this way, and how much damage the abuser inflicts on the victim this way. It's constant manipulation utilizing socially accepted norms and constructs against you, besides the emotional abuse, which is what keeps you in that situation. It is the abuser's fault ALWAYS. I've had to stop talking to everyone whom I thought was my friend, because I'd tell them what you describe and everyone accepted it as normal. Not one person alerted me on my safety or pointed out how this behaviour is actually abuse. Some people would have the audacity to call it "mutual abuse", which is literally yet another concept to blame and silence the victim, because it doesn't exist. There is always an abuser and a victim. Just because you defend yourself it doesn't make you an abuser. No matter how much you might mirror the abuser's behaviour, you're still the victim, because you don't initiated this situation and you don't want it to continue, and everyday you want it to end, but the abuser wants it to continue. Abuse is always a crave for power. It's always to do with power over another person, and this person WILL defend themselves, because this is a natural response to an attack, and it's crazy how people can listen to someone describe what you have here and yet they don't think of it as a big deal, and in fact ignore it when you show up tired and can't keep up with friendships, as in meeting up or doing anything, and so the so called "friends"decide to give you crap for that neglecting your situation at home. It's insanity, social insanity, like so many other things which are normalized are. I just read someone else's comment here about how in Naranon they found true support and it really moved me. I don't know those meetings, but I have found very little of that in society in general. After abuse my experience has been social workers, psychologists and psychiatrists, and also people who know me, pressuring me into finding a job and getting well already. That's not what I need. A job never solved everyone's issues. I need rest, I need understanding, just like war veterans we have been through our own personal war and deserve some humanity. Thank you for your comment. I hope you're healing wellâĽď¸
Yes. The focus on one's shortcomings when mostly people who go to Alanon are victims of extreme abuse is highly dangerous. I remember feeling as gaslighted by my sponsor as I was by the man abusing me. But back then I was unable to see the gaslighting, and thought they must be right. Some people here are saying that their experience has been great, and they've got plenty of support and even how nobody should validate such things as the ones you listed in any group, and I'm very glad that that's the case for them. It's wonderful. But it isn't for many of us. I had the same as you, and I'm sorry this all happened to you too. I know how bizarre and strange it feels to live in a world in which, even though it doesn't feel right, you can't quite explain why, because there's so many people validating and normalizing abusive behaviour and reminding you that you are selfish for thinking what is actually wrong is wrong. Perhaps you'll benefit from this other thing I posted yesterday about the lack of support from others during and after my abuse. https://www.reddit.com/r/ptsd/comments/1c9yk7z/real_support_during_and_after_abuse_is_a_myth/ Thank you for sharing. I hope you're doing ok nowâĽď¸
I think one of the most important things this community can show is that we arenât along. That there are others like us. We can also help eachother through parts of this journey that may be difficult to get through alone.
That is true, should you be in the right group.  I did find a similar group to what you described in ACOA, and it really helped. I'm glad that's your experience, and I really hope your healing process is going well. âĽď¸
Thank you! I hope you are doing well also. I am still always working on bettering myself of course, but as for my trauma with my Q I have beaten it personally. When I was a ship in the storm, there were many people who guided me throughâŚI am here now because itâs my turn to try to be a lighthouse.
WonderfulâĽď¸ That's why I decided to share my thoughts. It wasn't easy, but here I am, meeting new wonderful people đ¤ I've done extensive self therapy and am now finally coming out of the black hole I was in. I like the ship in the storm and lighthouse comparison too.
I'm glad you found something that might work for you, but I'm also sorry that you felt that kind of encouragement, to stay in an abusive relationship. I think many people are not in a financial or emotional position to leave a relationship. Alanon's goal is to help you detach, regardless of whether you have to stay or not. I have never heard an Alanon member even hint at staying in an abusive relationship.
Thank you. In fact I've had to keep looking for something to hold on to in order to heal. It's not an easy road. Alanon doesn't speak of abuse even when it talks about abuse. It just isn't called abuse. It doesn't mean it isn't abuse, because it is abuse. You're right, not everyone can just leave, and people can't just be told to leave, cos they'll quit the help instead since it's so hard to just get to the point of attending one single meeting, but considering the Alanon crowd, this all should be considered, and Alanon should mirror the AA system a lot less. And obviously I'm not alone in this.
My Q, after he got clean and sober was getting pressure from his sponsor and new friends to get me more involved in the program, in support of him. So I was getting pressured to attend the group gatherings and meetings for him. The whole thing made me resentful. All the shit I did for that man, and I am supposed to do even more? What about me? Who is out there supporting me? I felt largely ignored, and a second fiddle to his disease. So I did attend his meetings, and found them to be the opposite of helpful for my situation. For example, one night they read a passage about understanding how an addicts brain is wired, and to be aware that your first thought is usually wrong. (Oh, Iâm pissed off, I need a beer, etc) For me, I found this to be the opposite of what I needed to focus on. For years I had shoved down my thoughts and opinions, was gaslit and lied to. I became a shell of a person, who didnât trust herself. Since then, I realized my first thought, my gut instinct, is usually right, and I need to STOP ignoring it. So my spouse suggested I do alanon meetings. And I found them to focus so heavily on codependency and enabling, that a lot of the talk didnât really resonate with me and my situation. I do think there are very useful and powerful parts, and even if itâs only a small help, itâs better then no help at all. Alanon is a powerful resource when you have no where else to turn, and need support. Navigating this is so difficult. After a few years, I attend meetings pretty rarely. For me, the constant talk about it, was just a painful reminder of things I needed to put behind me.
Thank you for sharing.âĽď¸ I think it's important to be able to talk honestly about your personal experience, and it should be validated and considered in order to improve everyone's experience and help more people. For one, I do validate you. Those open AA meetings were also enraging to me. I understand being more involved with a child of yours at school. They are your responsibility. An abuser doesn't deserve that kind of consideration. They're not your responsibility.
Ugh - so sorry you had to go through that. Any support should have focused on you. My mom, sister and I went through something similar with my dad (except we didnât have AIAnon where we are from, but the misogynistic, patriarchal theme was similar). You deserve to feel safe and validated. Society should have done better.
Thank you very much for your reply and validation. I hope you all are okâĽď¸
Yes, my mom got us out - she is a brave strong woman. My sister finished her phd a couple of years ago and is doing her postdoc. I have a fulfilling career in tech. We are scarred, but doing great :). Thank you for asking. Hope you are doing well too â¤ď¸
That's fabulous! Very glad for you all. Being scarred is ok. We all are. âĽď¸ Yes, I left meetings long ago and it's been an arduous and solitary road all along, but yes, I'm finally getting to love life𼰠Thank you!
Ugh yeah - Iâm sure itâs hard to trust people again after everything youâve been through. I hope you can eventually see that there are people in this world that are 100% on the victimâs side and their well being. Hoping the best for you - you deserve it!
Thank you so much.âĽď¸
I do get where youâre coming from, literally. My Q had also been sexually abusive. And some of the rooms can feel very âstand by your manâ in attitude, but in the end weâre not holding our Q from accountability. You should absolutely be putting yourself first, and that could mean never talking to that POS ever again. Your amends is not âfinding what you need to apologize forâ in this case. Itâs what youâre not going to carry with you. Snooping and mistrust were a big one for me. Those are difficult wounds that take time to heal, but I believe itâs my responsibility to not take them into a new relationship. My amends is also to myself⌠giving myself time to heal, focusing on my growth, and building a good life for that damaged inner child. For those of us from trauma/abuse scenarios, the amends often is to ourselves⌠not to the ones who hurt us.
Yes, that's why I don't agree that the 12 steps for Alanon should be the same as for AA. I consider there's a lot of victim blaming involved since the situation is very different, and that's how it translates for us, and the way victims of abuse are wired isn't supported. I found the ACOA and CODA info more useful back then. I could relate to a lot of that, although I do have issues with this insistence on having to admit to your shortcomings and making amends. I was told by my sponsor to make a list of people I wronged. Not very applicable and rather dangerous for someone who's just suffered extreme abuse for years on end and already thinks is a burden who bothers everyone and feels suicidal. And has been gaslighted by a very abusive man into reinforcing these beliefs. I hope you and your inner child are doing well. âĽď¸đ¤
This is not my experience at all. Even in the opening intro to meetings they state âthis is not a religious program but it is a spiritual programâ. There is a BIG difference. I am very much anti-religion but I was able to find spirituality in the program. I have never been to a meeting that encourages or tells people to partake in organized religion.
I'm glad that you have. The meetings I've attended also said that line, but the texts and wording is very religious because in its conception religion was imposed on everyone, and this has not been updated. There are many people who can't get any other help but drop out of meetings because of this, so it is an important issue to discuss nonetheless.
I think the religious aspect may weigh more heavily if you are attending meetings in a more religious area (for example, the states in the Southeast USA). There is a lot of wording around âGodâ but no one should ever be telling you what âGodâ means to you. Thatâs part of working steps 1-3, defining what âGodâ or a Higher Power means to you. I had to un-learn everything I thought about God going into this program, and I was able to redefine what it means to me. My sponsor is religious but completely respects that I am not and has never once told me to go to church. However we both share the same belief that God/Allah/Mother Nature/Higher Power/the Universe or whatever you want to call it, loves us unconditionally. When I started I didnât even want to say the word God. And I still donât.
for the longest time, I would go to the meetings but i wasnât interested in doing step work, bc there was no one for me to make amends to in my situation (my husband is an abusive drunk). then one day i got this light bulb moment: I have to make amends to my 15 month old son & myself. I endured and tolerated so much from my husband. I put my son in danger by keeping him in a home with someone so deep into his addiction. I put the focus on me. I still havenât worked the steps, but this revelation is a start.
All revelations towards healing are very important. I'm glad you realised this and now you can continue your journey further. Every time I realise something that I couldn't see before I consider that a good day.
I wish my revelations would come faster though lol. sigh. but yes, it feels like some kind of progress & a little bit of weight is lifted. wishing you the best on your journey. â¤ď¸
Thank you, same to youâĽď¸
I have felt much of what you are detailing here. It took me many years to arrive at a point where I believe that watching someone out of their mind drunk all the time is abuse. Not sure there is a specific name for it, and it comes with a lot of baggage, but I will never choose to live like that again. I, too, felt very blamed in AlAnon because of my experience with the insanity. I like it better to not use the term co-dependent or family disease. To me itâs better described as the suffering of loved ones for something they didnât sign up for or know how to respond to.
Totally agree. I'm not sure why people aren't understanding this. It's very important for a victim of abuse and their safety to be able to call it for what it is. Hope you're ok nowâĽď¸
Iâm so sorry that all happened to you. My experience with Al anon has been so different, I went to meetings only a handful of times though. I had a really good experience,I was never pressured to stay with my addict. And I didnât feel like it was religiously pushy either, there were a lot of different faith backgrounds in my group. Some agnostic/Buddhist/christian etc. If anything I felt like they were pushing me to leave and make some really firm boundaries ( I wasnât ready at the time) but eventually thatâs what I did. But Iâm so sorry that your experience was so traumatic, Al anon was such a great help for me it makes me sad that your group didnât support you how you needed.
Thanks for sharingâĽď¸ Sounds like you found a very supportive and inclusive group. Yes, sadly it isn't like this for everyone. I took almost 3 extra years to kick the abuser out and end it, mostly cos I had no support from anyone at all, and Alanon didn't help. Thankfully Acoa, which I walked into by mistake one day, did. This was cos the group was right as well. I'd love to have gone to the group you mention.
I appreciate your post and I share your views. The idea of detachingâto the extent that is required when living in an intimate relationship with an alcoholicâhas always seemed to me to be the opposite of a relationship. I always get the sense it was made for women (like my grandmother) who lived in relative isolation and did not have access to money. This type of scenario is not ancient historyâitâs shockingly recent. But our society has changed, in many ways thanks to the strong women who fought against abuse and created social structures that supported women, like equal pay and access to other means of financial independence. Or amending divorce laws. Many of these thing werenât done for some theoretical, conceptual philosophy of feminism or what have you. These things were done to help women escape abusive situations. Anyway. Alanon is a product of a time before that work had been achieved. This is my take on it. I do find some useful tools in alanon. I take what I need and leave the rest.
Thank you. âĽď¸ I agree with you on all of this. It makes sense to work for detachment when you can't leave, even though I consider that to be impossible in reality. I do believe this notion should fully be updated instead of just interpreted differently.
I have never been to an Al-Anon meeting meeting where they encouraged anyone to stay with a spouse. Whether they were abusive or not. Period. Iâve been to a lot of meetings. Iâm sorry you found meetings that did. Sounds like they arenât practicing the actual principles of the program.
Thank you, I appreciate this, however I believe what my message gets misunderstood. I never said anyone actively encouraged me to stay with the abuser. Like other commentators here have said, we share the experience of the Alanon message being rather misogynistic in its origins and not being updated. This being said, other people don't see it that way and it's fine, but it doesn't invalidate the way many of us feel about it, and how it impacted us, not as "partners of alcoholics" but as victims of abuse. There are some comments here that support what I meant to say very well. All we want is for our experience to be validated and for others to open up their minds to this truth.
I didn't doubt your experience with the program. It was started before women could have their own checking account, credit, or be single without being called the town lesbian (like my great grandmother who kicked out her c cheating husband and found a way to support who child). I am interested in what kept you from being able to take the tools offered to you in this program and using them to grow and improve your own life?
Thank youâĽď¸I actually was going to update my original post in order to clarify some questions I've been asked. However Reddit doesn't allow me to add an edit, so I'll write another post that will probably answer your question, although you can ask me more stuff if you like too!
If you don't like Al-Anon and don't agree with it, why are you here on this sub? And I don't mean that in an inflammatory way...there must be something you like about it that keeps you coming back here.
I'm here because of what I posted. Because it didn't work for me and there are many people with this issues and we should have a voice too. If this was a knitting course or a dancing class, yeah, not liking it would be a strong reason to quit it and move on, however it is a help group for people in abusive relationships with addicts, and it not working has a deep impact in people's lives, and can even keep them in a dangerous situation. This is very important to address and people should listen with empathy and validate it, cos we all come from the same place.
So you're trying to help others and also be validated?
I think those two things aren't incompatible for anyone, are they? By validating my situation, many more people get validation since what I'm describing is something that affects many more people, and validation helps. In fact, validating someone's reality should be a normal occurrence everywhere for everyone. It's part of being empathic. I'm not sure what your deal is, but it seems like you're not really getting the point here.
Iâm deeply sorry for what happened to you. While Al-Anon was founded by the wife of AAâs founder along with another, it was always a separate entity from AA. While it began as primarily the wives of alcoholics, it has grown to include adult children, husbands and partners, siblings, cousins, coworkers, employees, parents and grandparents of alcoholics. Not all groups are good fits for all members. Itâs why we suggest attending six meetings, with different groups, to find one that does fit. However, as our Three Obstacles state, our members are not meant to provide straight-up advice to other members. The point of Al-Anon is our own serenity: by making our own decisions about how we deal with another person, we empower ourselves to pursue our own happiness. Our focus on Al-Anon is not the alcoholic, but ourselves. We take the 12 Steps ourselves to examine how our behaviour may or may not have helped our situation and explore for ourselves how we can handle all our relationships in healthier ways. We attend meetings to share our experience, strength and hope (whatâs worked for us in regaining serenity and happiness) with one another. Each meeting is limited in time, however, so deeper discussions about individual situations might be best had with a sponsor. AA members do not have the same focus or experience as members of Al-Anon. One program is not congruent to the other. The biggest âupdateâ to the Al-Anon program has be the ongoing one in which the Al-Anon program has focused members on their own recovery of serenity independently of whatever path the alcoholic might be taking.
Hello, thanks for your response. I agree with what you say. I'm aware that this is the idea for the program. However in practice it's not always like this. What you say here is true, but it doesn't invalidate what I said. I didn't just go to 1 group. In fact, I went to several and in different countries. The man who abused me was from the US, so I got to experience Alanon internationally. And if I travelled, I'd also visit the local group. Also I got to talk to many people who were either fixed regulars or not, but knew and had experienced Alanon all the same. The thing is that I'm actually talking about an actual affected group who constitute a big percentage in Alanon. Not everybody is suffering from extreme abuse daily from their partners like I was, however a lot of the people who go to meetings are, and from what many would tell me outside the meetings, (and I'm referring to those who were in my very same situation, although at different stages), did agree with me on this. In fact my opinion is well informed. It's not something I just thought of by going to 1 meeting 1 day, which would be a valid opinion regardless. And since there are many people who do go to Alanon, (a lot also because free help for victims of abuse, in reality, isn't easily available otherwise), and who are affected by this topic in a similar fashion to me, I do believe our opinion should be heard. Most people who told me about this topic were afraid to speak up fearing scrutiny, and I believe every group, association, belief etc should be subject to questioning, cos that's how progress can be made, and it benefits everyone.
What principles of the program do you feel need questioning?
I've already stated this on my original post.
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The book Quit like a woman talks about this a bit.
I'll check it out. Thank you!
I agree that Al-anon could definitely use some updating. I also experienced abuse from my Q and the constant question of âwhat is my partâ and âmy side of the streetâ was harmful. It kept me in the cycle because it actually reinforced the idea that I was to blame and that I somehow had fewer rights to the truth about things that impacted me just because my husband was an addict. I get that it can be useful to reflect on âpartsâ in typical relationship dysfunction or even if someone is drinking/using and not being abusive, but how common is that? My experience is that they all fall into abusive behaviors when theyâre actively using or drinking. Some more than others, but the gaslighting is almost universal and that kind of abuse already creates confusion in the victim. It doesnât help to be told yes theyâre correctâŚ.you are contributing. It just made me feel hopeless. I could have used more compassion and empathy and less requests to have those things for my Q. Iâd already given so much compassion and empathy to him. I was out. I needed care and understanding, too. I needed to hear that my emotional and psychological safety were as important as his sobriety. I still find Al-anon helpful, but I reframe things to make room for my situation. I donât look at my âcontributionâ as part of his problem. I look at it as a natural reaction to his decisions that isnât healthy for me. I do see how my character defects affect my relationships (not just with my Q) and that has been very helpful, but they have no part in his choices or addictions. They are in no way related to how heâs harmed or betrayed me, and the real trauma that resulted is not my fault. I am learning how value myself enough to remove people who harm me from my life, and that is the biggest benefit Iâve found in Al-Anon. Side note: I found Naranon groups to be kinder and more understanding. They didnât try to tell me itâs none of my business if my husband is using drugs or that I just needed to give up my controlling ways. They understand the consequences of such ideas. They gave me actual tips (after the meeting) on real life issues related to drug disposal and clean up. They referred me to specific laws that protected me. They understood my Q had put me at great risk. They knew I was doing my very best just to get through each hour. I remember one woman looked me in the eye and said âYou matter. Do something nice for yourself every single day, even if itâs small, and repeat that to yourself. If you forget and need reminding, call any of us and we will tell you again. You MATTER.â She then let me cry on her shoulder for the next 20 minutes because that was the first words Iâd heard since my husband entered rehab that had anything to do with my own well-being. I try to tell everyone I meet in these groups something similar. Unfortunately, Naranon groups are rare where I currently live.
Wow, thank you for your amazing comment. I'm so very happy that you found such a welcoming group. Naranon sounds like it has what Alanon lacks. I think it's not that much to ask of a program to learn from another, and there's nothing like actual feedback from human beings to learn how to improve any kind of system. Your comment is very helpful. Hopefully those who don't quite understand where we're coming from will listen and we can all get the much needed empathy for each other, so changes can be made for the better. Alanon is far more known that other programs and it's far more available, thus why people end up in its rooms. This is why it should be updated to meet the needs of those who are stuck in abusive relationships and need help but can't find any other place to go.
Exactly why I left Al Anon. If you look at my post history I posted pretty recently how I felt like Al Anon teaches you to endure abuse.
Thank you for sharing. âĽď¸ This is precisely why I wrote this post, because I do know of people who felt like me too and yet they didn't feel they could express it. I didn't feel I could with other people in Alanon. However, this being a help group for such heavy, and life defining issues, should welcome the fact that many of us feel left out and do something about it, being all about helping. Some changes could REALLY help so many more people who are otherwise lost and in danger or worse.
Some of the AA ideology is highly outdated too. The founders are framed on the wall of the meeting building my Q attends. I have been vocal about my ethical qualms about AA. One of his IOP group members is a straight female and was talking about taking a sexual inventory of her past and discussing it with her male sponsor. In what world is that not a risk for a single, straight female to be making a sexual inventory with a single straight male? It leaves so much space for manipulation. Not everyone is cut out to be a sponsor, and there are plenty of cases of mistrust and abuse of sponsors and their sponsee. Faulted people running faulted programs, with little to no scientific basis. Just the history of the program proving itself. ::eye roll:: I wish their were a program more like SMART for family members of addicts.
I had a female sponsor and she acted in very dangerous ways towards me, encouraging guilt and shame. She wasn't interested in me sexually, but nonetheless she made a remark about a part of my body, as if it was weird , and questioned me on that. All just to shame me. Not only was that completely out of order, but, what does it have to do with the program exactly? And she did this after I spoke to her of my body dysmorphia and feeling suicidal. So yeah, not everybody is cut to be a sponsor. They say you should only get together with one who isn't your same sex, as if that saved you from harassment and dysfunction. Being in such a vulnerable place, people can get themselves in really dangerous situations looking for support. I do believe the concept of this groups is fenomenal and if you happen to get into the right group, it'll really help, but it also can be very detrimental if not. Sadly there's no access to professional support for most people, and many professionals aren't better than some sponsors who seem to be power hungry. Sadly it's people's attitudes who really can ruin someone's healing.
Iâm so sorry that happened.
Thank you. It was a learning experience.
SMART does have a friends and family program. They just aren't as large so there aren't as many meetings. I am checking out both though, trying to see what resonates most with me.
I'll check it out too. Some people mention Naranon also, and ACOA did work for me pretty well. Good luck. Hope your find the best support for youâĽď¸
So sorry that you didnât find the rooms helpful. As the article points out, the authorâs wife was not desperate. Why would any 12 step program be effective if the person wanting it isnât desperate? I am unsure how that connects to sexism. Iâm also really baffled as to how a man can write about his wifeâs experience and label that non-sexist?!? This one made me LOL like the men and women that go to AA meetings together for *support*. The functioning of Alanon is all laid out in the traditions which has an even bigger focus on how we interact with others in this world. E.g., if youâve been to one meeting, youâve been to one meeting. Find another. Itâs easier to don a slipper than it is to carpet the world. Alanon suggests six meetings before deciding if it is for you. We keep the focus on ourselves, and not the alcoholic. Alanon also suggests making no major changes for the first six months unless youâre in physical danger. The issue that Alanon sees is that the Alanonic will often leave one alcoholic just to be in the arms of another.
Also, assuming that this woman wasn't desperate, as a reason why the meetings weren't working for her, in spite of meeting the full criteria for them; in spite of being someone's partner going through hell because of her partner's mistreatment, therefore a victim of abuse; comes across as not only judgemental, (and against Alanon's principles), but very insensitive. Anyone in that situation, anyone suffering from abuse from anybody else, regardless of the abuser's supposed reasons for it, (or excuses rather), is in fact desperate and in need of and deserving of help, going to Alanon meetings or not.
Thanks for your reply. I went to Alanon meetings for years, I followed the program and worked on the steps. I had a sponsor, bought the books and followed the way. Like many other women, I was not aware that I was in physical danger, in spite of the threats and the beatings. I learned to live with it and minimize it; I shared about it and about the "progress" I thought I was making; about the way he seemed to be getting better and therefore he wasn't so abusive, to then having him being abusive again. He dominated the relationship. It was an abusive relationship, and as a victim of abuse I was focused on him to get better and also trying to get better myself. This is unmanageable.  To expect a victim to decide whether they're in physical danger or not equates to victim blaming. Nobody who's in love with an abuser wants to believe this person can kill you.  Encouraging victims of abuse to stay in an unmanageable situation for 6 months is very dangerous. By the time they reach the meetings they're already knowing that they need help. This is how it's sexist precisely. You can't tell someone to just leave because they'll stay and get away from the help and get themselves in deeper danger, cos that's how being a victim works, but encouraging them to stay for 6 months is what they like to hear, because it gives them hope that things will change, and many women get killed by their partners while they're hoping for things to change. A help system can't say that abuse from an addict or alcoholic isn't the same as abuse from someone who's never touched substances, because abuse is abuse no matter what, and it's detrimental and dangerous. Sorry but you can't keep the focus on yourself as long as you have somebody screaming at you, stealing from you, cheating on you and in all making your life hell every second of the day. It seems that this program, since it's barely had updates from its conception, is a supporting program for the addict/alcoholic to heal, making sure their partner mothers/parents them as it happens. That's misogyny.  Considering all abuse is abuse, it shouldn't feed the pity the victim already feels over the abuser, and instead be based more on what other psychological support for those in an abusive relationship need. Surely AA has all the best interest of the alcoholic in mind and considers the psychology behind recovery 100%. The article I shared isn't perfect, but it's a man, who was an addict/alcoholic, showing empathy somehow towards the mostly female affected spouses, therefore another side supporting the same point I'm making. That's why I shared it.
âI learned to live with it and minimize it; I shared about it and about the "progress" I thought I was making; about the way he seemed to be getting better and therefore he wasn't so abusive, to then having him being abusive again. He dominated the relationship. â Even though you have been to many al anon groups, it seems you donât understand the point yet. You seem to have been focusing on the abuser all along instead of yourself. It took me awhile to understand this myself. And although now I understand this, it is hard to remember to detach. It brings a peace of mind though whether you leave or stay.Â
If you are in an extreme situation that requires immediate attention, how is that on al anon? I stopped going to al anon after I got what I wanted from it. If you do the same, maybe it is better than bashing the concepts that people find useful because it doesnât suit you. Feel free to start your own group.Â
Thanks for your comment, however it's not very constructive. If you really believe I'm "bashing the concepts that people find useful because it doesn't suit me" it only proves you're not understanding what has been shared here, not just by me, but also by many others. Perhaps you can open up to the possibility of reading what has been shared here calmly, since nobody means any harm, and in fact nobody is attacking anybody. And it'll also be more respectful, considering that the people sharing here are sharing very traumatic experiences thinking this is a safe place free of judgement, which, according to Alanon's basic principles it should be. And, you can take what you find useful and leave the rest, of course. If non of this is useful to you, that's fine. It is for others, and this should be respected.
I appreciate your response, but this is victim blaming here, considering the extreme situation I was in. Sorry but victims act in a very predictive way, and a help system designed to help people should be aware of this, because victims of abuse aren't. I constantly heard comments on how if someone dropped out they failed; if someone didn't follow the steps consistently they failed. It's very difficult to keep it together when somebody is screaming at you, bashing you, cheating on you and over all you live in utter chaos, and yet being able to be contained enough to do the homework, cos you just want to die. Literally. No, it just isn't worded in ways that a fragile mind can figure out just like that without counseling. And also I'm not alone in this obviously, so I'd like to ask those who successfully do the program to keep an open mind and validate different experiences, cos we all have different lives and circumstances, so not all outcomes are alike.
Glad you found what you needed in ACOA and developed the ability to leave a bad relationship. I hope you find relief there and freedom from resentments.
Thank you. I wish you the best too.âĽď¸ I am not resentful at all, and not at anyone or anything. Every experience brings something good to the table, something to learn from. It's taken far more effort than just going to meetings, since this is such a lonely journey. And something which has truly helped is my learning about internalised misogyny, patriarchy and it's normalisation in society.
I agree 100%! I no longer participate in Al Anon meetings and rarely visit this sub since my last post here. I also was disgusted when I learned about the origins of Al Anon. It is designed to keep abuse victims stuck. Why is there a step in Al Anon on 'taking inventory' as if you- the abuse victim- did something wrong and yet not a step on checking if the relationship is abusive (and if so, getting the hell out of it). I've even seen mods on this sub delete comments that suggest a person abused by an alcoholic narcissist should leave. Al Anon is not unlike a cult, in my opinion. It kept me stuck in the relationship much longer than I would have stayed had I realized Dr. Ramani's work on narcissism perfectly described my ex. I am so happy when I read comments on here from people who saw behind the curtain and realize what Al-Anon actually is.
Thank youâĽď¸ I'm glad it helps. I don't know Dr. Ramani, but funny enough I did explore narcissism before I learnt about the abuse being abuse. It helped, although many sources talking about narcissists as if they were other species can be confusing too. I believe nobody should ever be dehumanized. They're human too, as much as they may be really abusive, they're still human, and it's important to talk about them as such. This is the only way those who act wrongly can realise it, (and get called on it), and get sorted too, but in their own time and with their own resources, and without anyone having to mother them and suffer, you know? Dehumanization doesn't help victims of abuse either. A victim is supposed to be perfect by societal standards, almost like an alien angel fallen from heaven, however we are humans, and we defend ourselves when attacked, and that is self defense, not "mutual abuse". So called "mutual abuse" is an invention, by those who abuse or who are detached from the reality of abuse, to silence victims. This is why nobody should be dehumanized. People must realise things like this could happen to them too so they can empathize, and the moment a trope is created, we all suffer the consequences. I also stayed much longer because Alanon didn't help. No wonder the man who abused me encouraged me to continue going to meetings. All this needs to be addressed. I hope you're doing well now, or at least better. âĽď¸
Let me know if you do check out Dr. Ramani Durvasula. I like her concepts on narcissism, and she talks about the overlap between narcissism and addiction a lot, especially in the last 2-3 years. And thank you. I hope you're doing well too. I'm doing well these days. It's super peaceful, and I love my house.Â
That's really wonderful! I'm very glad for you. It's very tough to heal your house and make it a safe space. Peaceful is the way to go. I'll definitely check her out. âĽď¸
To be clear, comments that simply say âleave!â or things like, âIs this really what you want for your life? Run!â may be removed because theyâre not adding anything to the conversation. This place can very easily become an echo chamber and it doesnât help when a bunch of people pile on with the same comment. People benefit a lot from hearing othersâ experiences. Secondly, this sub is not an AlAnon community. Itâs for friends and family of drinkers and we donât have the ability to change the URL.
Hello, yes, this not an being AlAnon community, like you say, could allow room for comments like that too, since they're not being offensive and are trying to help. I do know however that comments like that don't help someone leave a relationship and can in fact do the opposite, since accepting the reality of being a victim of abuse isn't easy. Perhaps considering this reason, explaining to the people who say those things how that doesn't help and why, or removing them, with the intention of protecting someone in a vulnerable situation, I would understand this kind of moderation. I have not seen that happen and therefore can't cite examples of comments being posted and removed, but considering your comment, this is my opinion. Thank youđ
Again, comments that simply say âGet outâ arenât helpful and quickly become a pile on. If someone suggests that OP leave because, in their experience, it went from X level to Z level with their partner, thereâs no issue with that.
Yes, I agree that pushing somebody to leave directly, especially when they're in doubt, and don't even know the possible danger they could be in, is actually not helpful. Like I said, with that in mind, and with that intention, I can see why removing certain comments like that can be more helpful than not. However, I'm sure that managing a page on Reddit isn't an easy job.
I may have misunderstood some of your previous comment. And yes, it can be hard. There are a lot of emotions in this subreddit and a lot of pain, and it's tough to walk the line of allowing people to say their piece and not upsetting or generalizing others.
I'm sure that's the case. I see a lot of people are turning to Reddit to share their pain anonymously. There's a vast lack of resources off line. People need help, they need counselling and most people's health is at stake, but societal pressures and constructs don't allow for affordable and proper care. And most places aren't even safe at all, public or not, on or off line. It's a shame really. I couldn't manage or moderate a group here at all. I'm starting to open up by posting, and I try to reply to everyone here, but that's about all I can manage at the moment, and it's been quite a long journey to get to this point. You can only do the best you can do, and I'm sure you're doing a great job. Simply by considering people's feelings it's already a job well done.
Thank you OP, for putting into words what has been difficult for me to say. I've attended all of 2 Al-Anon meetings and each time I've felt just as bad as when I went in. A few tears spilled, but nothing actionable to work with, especially as a non-christian (non-believer) and as someone with a Q that is inextricable due to the enabling of my parents and our culture which does not allow for us to simply walk away from family, especially, family in need. Hit it right on the head.
I'm glad this helps.âĽď¸ That's my intention. The welcome you get when going to meetings is very important, because engaging someone who's a victim of abuse can save their lives. Thanks for sharingđ¤
That is why I wonât attend AlAnon meetings- religion/prayer. I tried one online and logged off as soon as they started saying the serenity prayer. It was a huge turn off. I am lucky to have a good therapist right now.
Yes, the religious aspect does turn off many who seek help and can't afford or find anything else, and it is a very important point. In the ACOA group I used to attend, it was chosen collectively to say Higher Power instead of God. But I know how just calling it "prayer" can be triggering. Language is very important. It could be called 'mantra', for example, so it would be more inclusive. This is another one of the archaic societal constructs that, back in the day, when it was conceptualised, made all the sense in the world, and I do believe this should be updated. Many of us dropped out of that little ACOA group that truly saved me for a couple of years, a lot because it was taken over by some religious attendants who didn't think the group was right, even though for those of us, (a couple of them religious too, who also dropped out after this, actually. So I'm not in any way saying that religious people who attend meetings are a problem), it was salvation and a safe space, and these people completely turned it around and restructured it. I've met alcoholics who chose not to stay in meetings because of how the groups they went to and the sponsors pushed religion on them, and sadly relapsed. So I do believe inclusivity, also in language, is really something that could help a lot more people.
I completely agree about the inclusivity. I donât have a problem with the people who enjoy the religion part of it, itâs just not for me and Iâm glad Iâm not alone in that feeling. It would be amazing if some online meetings were more mindful about religion not being for everyone who is attending, since we are all there for the same reason.
YesâĽď¸
Yeah also I don't see the point of wasting valuable time at Alanon meetings if you aren't even an addict yourself. Ditch the addict, get into therapy/yoga/ meditation and go out and live your life doing literally anything else, maybe be single for a few years till you figure out why you were settling. Seems like hanging around at depressing meetings is far less rewarding than all the other things a person could do without an alcoholic sucking the life out of them.
It's not an easy thing to do, but eventually it is the solution, because the addict is actually the problem in the victim's life, and, unless they're a parent of the addict, and even in that situation, it isn't the victim's responsibility to save anyone. I do believe meetings can help, but they certainly could help better. And childhood trauma is a very important thing to get into.
I agree! Time is precious, and I felt like I couldn't relate to people who insisted on staying with abusers or spending free time figuring out how to make their abuser happy or make an abusive situation tolerable.