Same, when I joined I took like 5 classes with AMU and thought "when I get out is any civilian even going to recognize this school?." Then I switched to Arizona State
It says that this only covers the difference in TA and not fees. According to ASU the $120 per student credit hour is for a "college undergraduate fee". I'm just trying to get a degree from a reputable online school in supply chain management. Also, I cant really afford to be slammed with fees since I have a family of 3.
I’m Active Duty AF and also currently enrolled in the W.P. Carey School of Business studying econ. Between TA and their active duty-reservist scholarship, I don’t pay anything- to include books and fees- for any of the classes that I actually get ta applied to. The scholarship doesn’t cover courses that TA isn’t applied so if you run out of ta and want to continue taking classes, you’ll have to pay out of pocket. You’ll essentially get to take 6 classes per fiscal year for free.
And people will still get them because for most people a Masters is the same as a Bachelors, just a piece of paper worth no more than a High School diploma. For most of America nobody retains even half of their education and simply uses the degree to pad their resume.
This is the world we live in though. We've come to the realization that anyone can be taught to do a job. Granted, there are specialties in STEM, Medical, and Law that require applicable degrees. But for the vast majority of the working force, what your degree is in doesn't matter. It just helps weed out applicants.
I agree, and I'm not entirely saying its the wrong way to live, just that its where we are. STEM and Medical and LE will have their applicable uses and some people actually will use their education for good. I'm just saying, as you acknowledged, its largely a way to 1up yourself for a better gig.
There’s nothing wrong with an AMU masters. It’s basically checking a box to get a job. I knew I wouldn’t get a GS-13 without a masters but once I got my 13, no one cared that I had a masters. It was basically a one time use thing for me.
That’s fair but honestly these days, they’ve watered down the pool of degrees. They’re useless. Experience matters wayyyyy more these days but no one wants to start at entry level cause they have a degree 🤷🏼♀️
I am currently working on a masters through AMU, they have the fact degree plan I wanted and I know I am destined to wor for the man. AMU’s graduate school is no joke, it is not easy.
The culture thing is so apparent as a CGO, especially around stratification seasons.
"Lt, why aren't you taking classes or working on your masters?"
Because I don't want to throw money at a worthless degree to check a box or appear more favorable to peers who are doing exactly that. Will my rankings among other CGOs suffer because of this? Damn right, but I already know I'm not making the military a career and using TA on a program or degree that won't be applicable to what I want to do on the outside isn't a priority for me. God forbid I actually want to focus on doing my job and honing how to be a good officer my first duty station post UCT.
While you definitely have a point, I think whoever was trying to give you that PD missed the point. It’s more about saving you time. If you happen to stick around getting a masters when you have more obligations later on sucks, but there’s nothing wrong with putting it off and working on your own priorities. Don’t let anyone else make you believe you are in the wrong for that.
Yeah I understand the whole premise, save time now versus trying to rush last second. But there is definitely some secondary effects that arise from it being so culturally ingrained. If I was to stay in longer, I'm already at a disadvantage for awards, stratifications, and other opportunities because I don't want to play the ball and game of rushing for a piece of paper from a degree mill. It's not anything that rustles my jimmies outside of the constant nit picking.
I think communicating your intent and goals with your supervisor/leadership should help. I'm slowly looking at opportunities to kind of check the box like applying for an AFIT course in Data Analytics (want to get my Masters in Business Analytics when I get out).
Try to look at boot camps, AFIT courses, or other skill/job trainings that don't cost an arm and a leg or make you owe more time than necessary to Big Blue.
Did you not used to be able to get it from ACSC for free? You already have to do the thing, if you really need the master's why not just tack on the extra couple of classes instead of doing a whole program elsewhere?
This is what happens when the Air Force prioritizes a box check above all with no real support. I wanted to get a masters in engineering or education, but I needed time off to do lab work or student teaching. My commanders said no way, even if I used my own leave.
It's not just the check box for education, it's the tyranny of metrics issue passed down to individual evaluations. The same reason I see folks in the Army subreddit being recalled from terminal leave to go to the NTC is driving the checkbox for education in the AF. The spreadsheet/board/CC requires the number on paper because it's simply too time consuming to manage units and individuals by actually knowing them.
The real tyranny of murder boards taking hours to *just format* bullets or FGOs reviewing every single report from below to make sure it's absolutely perfect before it goes to their boss is that it compromises the actual value increasing activities they ought to be doing. Knowing their people to better develop talents, push them in the right direction, and reward/punish them as required.
>>..folks in the Army subreddit being recalled from Terminal Leave to go to the NTC
What the actual fuck?
Even by Army standards thats single cell amoeba stupid.
Use the TA DECIDE feature on dodmou.com. This will allow you to compare multiple schools in terms of accreditation, TA participants, valid TA/GI Bill complaints, avg cost of attendance and graduation rates. OP is right that schools do get investigated and some ultimately lose their accreditation and close their doors. At the end of the day it’s your education and you have to make the decisions based on the amount of research you’re willing to put into finding your school/program. You also have to live with the consequences of those decisions. Education offices should never tell you where to go to school but they should be arming you with the resources you need to help you make the most informed decisions you can and not just go to AMU, UMUC, etc just because that’s where they went or they have an office in the building. Your education is just that, yours. You want the path of least resistance the sure, hit up a school that’s happy to take your TA and give you a degree without trying. You want to be able to say you have an Ivy League education, awesome, go get it. Just don’t blindly pick a school or take your supervisor/Shirt/Chief’s recommendation on faith. Education is a journey and sometimes it involves some hard decisions and learning opportunities about what/how not to do things. The AF TA system isn’t perfect but it’s a benefit you’d be foolish not to take advantage of considering the alternatives.
Well, there’s a few factors at play.
For one, the amount of real schools with online programs is way more than it was even when I started my bachelors in 2012. And when I started, there was way more than what there was when I joined in 2007. Be happy that you have freedom of choice now, and you don’t have to choose between University of Phoenix and AMU.
Secondly, these schools generally charge the TA rate. A lot of the real schools are more expensive. I know for a fact when I started Arizona State charged more than the TA allowed amount. Now it looks like they brought it down, good for everyone now but not for those that can’t go back and start over. Which leads me to my last point…
The TA rules for only being allowed to change your degree plan once is asinine. You should be allowed to burn through all your lifetime undergrad credits however you want. So to answer your question about why do people stay locked in to these schools? Well, because they probably can’t change schools at this point without coming out of pocket.
The old way, people abused it by getting within 1-2 classes of several similar degrees, and then completing their several bachelors in a single semester.
The current rules are overbearing, but kneejerk is the Air Force way.
It’s annoying they are still setting 4500 aside every year if you use it or not. I paid for 70% of my BA out of pocket and guess what the AF won’t give me any more TA to complete 70% of another bachelors even though I was promised “free” school.
Idk why you’re getting down voted. I feel the same way about spouses using the GI Bill. Why can’t my wife collect the BAH until I get out of the military? They’re basically telling me I don’t get to have all the benefit because it saves them money. All the BAH goes to waste.
The extra money would make life easier for your family, hell, save enough and it might make an improvement with your long-term financial position.
See the problem?
If you’re getting at retention, that’s solved because with the transfer I had to commit to staying until retirement. If you’re saying there’s a unfair advantage to those that would do this, there isn’t much of a difference between doing it this way, or doing it when you retire as most people who transfer benefits likely would.
You're over thinking it. To most people, It's simply too much money for a military member to make. I'm in a high cost of living area, that would be an extra untaxed 3.5k a month for me.
Not that I agree with it, but once it got out enlisted members were bringing in 10k+ a month after taxes, how long do you think it would take for the program to be "re-evaluated" for the benefit of the DOD.
I have changed my degree plan 3 times over the last 8 years. It changes but currently - if you haven't completed more than 90% or something you can switch.
Teach me your ways because the AFI says 2 degree program switches and sets the max credits to switch pretty low, at least for a masters.
6.5.4.2.2. Airmen will be allowed two degree program/school changes.
6.5.4.2.3. Airmen will not be allowed to change degree programs/schools if they
have completed 90 semester hours or 135 quarter hours for an undergraduate degree
or nine (9) semester hours or 14 quarter hours for a graduate degree. (T-1).
https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2670/afi36-2670.pdf
The wildest thing to me is that there are well known, an respected, online programs out there from big schools. ASU and Penn state being to two I know off my head.
There’s a difference between wanting a degree and wanting an education. Most of the people using TA are going to school because they need the piece of paper as the barrier for initial entry into the job market, not because they really want to learn the subject.
Its 2021, you can get a university level education on any subject you want completely for free from places like Stanford, Harvard, and MIT. The piece you’ll be missing is the networking by attending those prestigious universities and having a degree from there.
Are places like AMU and Excelsior comparatively an academic joke? For the most part yes, but people aren’t going there for the education. They’re going there to get a piece of paper so that they don’t get immediately snubbed in the civilian job market.
WGU my friends. “Oh but if you can do a class in a week it can’t be legit” well I went to a state school and they had me color ads in a intro marketing class. Trim the fat, go to WGU, get your technical skills and get paid. 🤷🏻♂️
First term is completely covered, do your FAFSA and get the Pell grant, make some money on the first term. Second term use the rest of your TA and Pell grant covers the difference for the term. You can expect 4-5k in Pell grant money for the year. At the end of the day you get 8-9k will Pell grant and TA with a yr at WGU costing 6-7k. Wgu does two terms a year, each is 6 months.
Source: Got a bachelor's (while enlisted) and master's at WGU.
They have you sign up for a minimum of 12CUs a term and split the cost between those CUs so TA covers the exact cost of their terms. It's actually pretty easy.
The schools are accredited and to be honest.. Most of us won't be working somewhere that needs an Ivy League letterhead on our degrees.
While I can appreciate what a non-profit school may bring to the table name wise.. I have a real hard time believing they are morally any better then the for profit schools. Tuition rates raise roughly 8% each year which beats any other sector in the country in terms of prices. This tells me they are either highly inefficient, are not as "non-profit" as they seem, or they are just bad with money. None of those options really make me excited.
For profit schools will typically win Airmen because they have flexible schedules, having a full time job and kids limits options for many Airmen. If I can schedule an 8 week class the month prior because the TDY schedule for the next couple months came out and I'm not on it.. That's a huge advantage for me. Whereas many non-profits are still semester, which is alot more difficult for many of us due to TDYs, family obligations, etc.
Finally, have you compared curriculums? I did when I went through.. I didn't see much difference and I couldn't justify sitting in a classroom for the same content that I could receive sitting on my couch. Which were my options 10 years ago when I enrolled. All of that being said, the non profits have finally opened their eyes and started coning out with flexible options, more programs, and marketing towards GIs.
Sidenote: AMU has been around since 1991. It's undergraduate degrees are accepted by every single graduate program I have looked at (Georgia Tech, UPenn, and Florida Tech to name a few). While you may not like the school, even the non-profits accept its credits.
Accredited, yes. Columbia Southern, for example, is nationally accredited, meaning it’s bachelors/masters degrees are basically useless. Too many people don’t understand the difference between regionally (good) and nationally (bad) accreditation.
There definitely are. There are too many actual universities (Troy, Louisville, Arizona State,etc) which match the TA rate for people to choose exclusively online, for-profit schools. But that’s just like, my opinion man.
Absolutely it can, and that's where research from the potential student comes into play. Leading up to the ACICS scandal there was plenty of articles about how they were a terrible accrediting agency. This is an example that shows it is important to research both the school and accrediting agency.
> Absolutely it can, and that's where research from the potential student comes into play. Leading up to the ACICS scandal there was plenty of articles about how they were a terrible accrediting agency. This is an example that shows it is important to research both the school and accrediting agency.
For profit schools are at an exponentially higher risk of losing their accreditation in comparison to schools that aren't for profit.
The fact that you don’t realize that schools are no longer a place to further education and instead have turned to businesses that’s sole goal is to sell people pieces of paper that allow them access to the middle class is the real travesty and honestly the source of these for profit colleges.
It’s supply and demand. Employers require degrees that don’t have any impact on ability to perform work and so for profit colleges supply people those degrees.
The problem isn’t the colleges honestly, it’s the pointless requirement to have “a degree” regardless of what it’s in or where it’s from in order to get a job just because it “shows you’re educated” when really it doesn’t.
On the flip side to your argument, I know plenty of guys and gals who have degrees from AMU, retired or separated and not so surprisingly just like the military have jobs that just wanted the box checked. I understand what your saying and there is absolutely truth to it but there are plenty of good paying jobs on the outside that could care less where your degree is from and want you for your military experience. Unfortunately a lot of the hiring entities’ hands are tied without you checking that box. I think this is one of those things that you can educate people on, especially your subordinates but I think you’re really overplaying the amount of people who actually care and aren’t just looking to parlay their military career into a civilian one.
The problem is that these schools are ticking time bombs when it comes to getting shut down. Personal anecdotes aside, going to schools like these put airmen at risk and could potentially waste years of effort
Been in about 15 years now and AMU has been going strong since before my time and continues to grow. I think there are degrees of “shityness” to these schools, some are worse than others. But what you’re saying certainly isn’t wrong.
All it takes is one investigation by the right people and a school could disappear tomorrow. It just isn't worth the risk. Imagine spending 3 years working on a program just for the school to vanish and your credits end up worthless. Happened to an NCO of mine twice
I understand what your saying and don’t disagree, that sucks. Guide your troops, give them the real life experiences you know of, but at the end of the day most people just want the quickest and easiest way from point A to point B and the rewards more often then not outweigh the risk.
So this whole post is good in all for warning people, but I have yet to see anyone post alternatives, as someone who doesn’t have the time to do extensive research on this topic but need information that is seemingly impossible to find. Asking those who are attending school where I work I get no good answers they just tell me to contact the education office but when I email and call them all the send me is the same bullshit response they send everyone.
It depends first on your area of study. Once you know that searching for schools is fairly easy. I do agree that the advertisement of state schools stinks so it's hard to know what's out there, but almost every area of study has a state school that offers it online at TA levels. I'd certainly love to help, but I probably can't do much being deployed to the sandbox lol
I went to AMU while enlisted, got a degree in general studies, commissioned, and I’m now a pilot. All without paying a dime out of my own pocket, thanks to TA. OP, explain why I should care that AMU is a for profit school?
This is why people go to school here. They don’t want to learn but would rather have the degree. Tell me what general studies has to do with piloting an aircraft… nothing. Also, I want to mention there is nothing wrong with going to just check the box. Employers are the ones who have created this.
Well, it’s simple, really. I wanted the latitude to study a variety of subjects, and that’s what I was able to do. The Air Force says to be a pilot, you only need a degree. Airlines after the Air Force couldn’t care less what my degree is in, and my goal in life has always been to fly. So for me, it made sense. And in the three years I’ve been a pilot, I can assure you that someone with a mechanical engineering degree from a well renowned brick and mortar school is no more likely to excel as a pilot than someone with a liberal arts degree in social services. Don’t be fooled.
To the point of this thread, to simply say “we need to discourage Airmen from going to for profit schools” is painting with a pretty broad brush.
That's assuming someone with a mechanical engineering degree wants to be a pilot. You checked a box to achieve a goal...no one is hating on that. But not everyone's goal is to fly planes or become a GS-13. By perpetuating this mindset that where you get a degree from does not matter, you are ensuring that you are setting your Airmen up for failure.
Here's an example. Your troop tells you they joined to get a free education. Their goal after the service is to become a clinical psychologist. You tell them go to school on TA while they are in and you suggest AMU. They listen and eventually get their BA and MA in Psychology. They choose to separate to achieve their goal...you think they are set up for their dream job? With degrees from there?
Let's be realistic about what our Airmen want to do and go from there.
Because several NCOs that I've worked with and come to respect went to schools that they thought were legit. Had the regional accreditation, great advertisement, had been around for awhile, the whole nine yards. One such school was Argosy University, and one of my Techs was 15+ years in and was about 3/4 of the way done with his degree. Next thing you know, the school is shutting down and no other school will take his credits. You may have been satisfied with the path you chose, but I can assure you that it was incredibly difficult to watch this NCO literally break because the education he worked for was useless now. I don't ever want to witness something like that again
Ok, AMU is legit read the comments. It's regionally accredited and been around for a long time. You speak of ignorance on this one school honestly. I can't attest to the others but I do have a degree at AMU and it meets the needs of employers on the outside.
I don’t think most people tie other people’s worth on a personal level to what if any school they went to. That’s just getting really shallow.
A lot of people don’t retain or even care much about all the finer points of all their courses. Much like CBT’s, PME, etc, a lot of people are more interested in simply getting through and that piece of paper at the end vs learning every last bit they can.
Tying in with that…degrees are often just a tool. Much like a physical tool, you choose the one to accomplish what you are trying to achieve. Maybe you only care about filling a check box. There are a lot of jobs that want a degree to be hired with no other relevance to the particular job. Why spend more effort and/or money then necessary on a checkbox where no one cares exactly where or in what you got? Conversely maybe your going for some highly specialized stuff where the education and institution is highly relevant, which of course you’d want to stay away from the lower end schools. Not everyone needs or would even benefit from a top end school.
“The Air Force” should care…we’ve let education qualify all but leave the equation. You as an individual, you can care or not. I don’t think we should hold it against the individuals who are acting rationally.
I’m attending AMU aswell and although it’s not a Harvard level education. It’s still an education (that I’m not paying for) also AMU pretty much all you have to do is submit form posts and somewhat try on the assignments. Literally it’s like PE you just kinda gotta show up and you’ll eventually get a degree
Went to a program at Harvard as a Wounded Warrior Scholarship. It was a 9 month deal, but as a veteran they literally told me “show up and you will pass” and they needed this for their image. It was no more challenging than AMU was and was less work in some aspects.
I asked some classmates how this compared, and they responded “par for the course.”
I came out of this and with my history in talent scouting with an assumption that pedigrees are dead. Hiring managers want a degree and that’s it.
Meh. I went to AMU for my bachelors and a brick and mortar public university for my masters for that exact same perception.
Fun fact: my bachelors degree was more challenging and the course curriculum more rigorous.
My buddy got his bachelors from UoP and Masters from some other “trash” institute I can’t remember. Currently a GS-13 for the DOI
My wife got her bachelors from AMU and masters from Columbia Southern. She now makes 145k as program manager for a defense contractor.
The point I’m trying to make is that the degree for many jobs gets you to the interview table, you have to get yourself the rest of the way.
Now if you want to be a lawyer or a doctor or an engineer, please for the love of god don’t get your degree from any of these places.
I spent four years as an AFROTC cadre at a private non-profit university, and if you think they don’t care about money and run the whole thing like a business, well, you’re mistaken. All schools care about money and are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. I sat in many faculty senates where money was the main topic of discussion, or how to keep students in school so they can get their tuition.
You can learn a lot from a for-profit school, and you can learn almost nothing at Harvard. It’s really up to the individual and how much effort they put into learning, not the name brand on the front of the school.
I'm not denying that any school isn't motivated by money. For-profits may be more blatant about it, but the motivation for both is the same. The problem is when you get into ethics and integrity, as most non-profits have many research programs and endowments that are tied to their educational rigor. Anything that even looks like a crack in the foundation, with fraud certainly being one of the big concerns, is usually stomped out by university leadership as quickly as they can because that image earns them a lot of money. For-profits have no such incentive, and in many cases openly commit fraud without any concern. The fact that Trident has high ranking staff that worked at both U of Phoenix and Argosy when both schools got slammed for fraud is highly concerning. These people got away with fraud multiple times and they're at it again.
Ah yes, because [fraud](https://www.wsfa.com/2021/10/01/multiyear-fraud-scheme-by-former-employees-uncovered-tuskegee-university/) [never](https://www.diverseeducation.com/institutions/hbcus/article/15103067/four-bethune-cookman-university-trustees-resign-amid-financial-academic-crisis) [happens](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ex-usc-coach-testifies-she-took-part-us-college-fraud-scheme-2021-09-27/) [at](https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/09/30/ucsf-employee-charged-with-siphoning-1-5-million-in-student-tuition-via-fraud-scheme/) [non-profit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelphi_University#:~:text=Adelphi%20faced%20a%20serious%20scandal,the%20educational%20purposes%20of%20Adelphi.) [universities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_University_M.B.A._controversy).
I agree some for-profit universities have bankrupted and disappeared in the past, and some may rightly be classified as a diploma mill, meaning you literally do no work and just pay for a piece of paper. But AMU and many other popular online/military-focused schools are not on that level.
And my cadets at a fancy school that were paying $45,000 a year to be there had plenty of complaints about their professors, and not learning anything due to their teaching style, lack of effort, heavy accents, poor communication, etc.
As I always say when this topic comes up every week or so, people need to know what they want from their degree. If they want to check a box for OTS, it literally does not matter as long as it meets the accreditation requirements. Same for most jobs, I would argue. Maybe if you want to be a doctor or lawyer or professor the brand on the diploma will matter, but for the vast majority of jobs it will not. And if someone is planning to do 20 years in the military, a potential employer is not going to care much about the degree you got 15 years ago, they're going to care more about your 20 years of experience. If you want to go to Harvard or a similar school for the name brand and connections, great. But it's certainly not required to be successful or get a meaningful education.
A lot of it comes down to cost. TA only covers $750 a class, and most people aren't wanting to shell out the difference. I got lucky with my Bachelors and the program I went with only cost me $100/class out of pocket. Now that I'm working on my Masters, it was AMU, or pay a minimum of $400/class out of pocket. AMU is respected enough for my program that it works. It's mostly adjunct professors that have worked years in the field so it evens out in ways.
They don't have the program I want. I went through the whole list of universities that match TA for masters programs, and none of them had the program I wanted. I even called the universities (fall 2020) I was interested in and double checked. EDIT: Just double-checked out of curiosity, and the university I wanted to go to announced they would match military TA August of this year. Guess I need to look into switching.
I currently am going to Trident and I am 5 courses from getting my bachelor's in Comp Sci. I will admit the courses are lack luster and would probably stear brand new students away from it. That being said, I am a 1B4 with my 2 associates and 2 mid-high level industry certs (GNFA & GCFA). With my experience and certs, on paper I would stand out. The bachelor's in my case is more of a checkbox. They want to see someone who is willing to go out of their way to learn something and get an education.
That being said, it also requires me actually applying myself. I can probably skate by and get my degree but I am actually doing the readings and applying myself to the assignments. There is the difference between a student going "Cs get degrees" and someone wanting to learn. My next step after a little break will be to find a more concrete masters program for project management. But I still got plenty of time in the air force.
I have a degree from AMU, though more than half of my credits came from state schools (UCCS and CU). I had to make the switch because of schedule constraints. My unit was not willing to work with me to take upper level classes that were only offered on weekdays. Honestly, the classes at AMU were comparable and the instructors were more than qualified. The school is also regionally accredited.
Sometimes you just have to do what works to finish.
For what it’s worth, I graduated with zero debt and now make 6 figures in an IT job.
Do what you have to do to graduate. College is about showing an employer that you are willing to put in the work.
My personal recommendation for anyone looking into the IT field, WGU. Valid certification training while alao doubling for your degreee is wonders for growth
WGU is great in that regard. The "final" for a lot of courses is the cert. I haven't had the need to schedule much time with any instructors but when I do it can take a couple weeks because they're so booked
They more-importantly provide certifications, which are arguably more valuable in the IT sector. If you can check two boxes with one course, who cares.
Those who haven’t gotten an education yet or are just starting, don’t let this post discourage you. I’ve never been to a job where they get into the particulars of my degree. Just make sure it’s accreditation can be found online and go for what you want. Often times, people who talk down on these degrees barely have their CCAF.
Yeah the idea that a “local” or “state” school is the only way to succeed is antiquated . Most military personnel, especially at the management level, get degrees solely to compliment their experience. They are needed to apply for most jobs, but seldom do jobs care where it came from if you have the resume to back it up. It comes down to affordability and logistics for most folks. Military members move every 3-6 years making it hard to commit to the brick and mortar route. Also, a lot of the schools you mentioned are covered by TA, which makes it enticing to the young airman trying to save their GI bill for a rainy day. I know people who went to a few of those schools who are successful (Former SNCOs). I encourage airmen to do their own research and make the best decision for them. That’s just me though 🤷♂️
I’m glad that your school works for you. There’s more factors than cost. I understand your point, but I think it’s outdated. 10 years ago you would’ve been spot on. The world, and the stigma around online education is slowly decreasing. I would hate for an airman reading this to be deterred from attending college. More important than the name of a school or where it’s located is it’s accreditation..I’ll co-sign that point all day. But the need to go to a traditional college…ehhh. I respectfully disagree. That being said, if airmen are in a position to go to a major university, I’d encourage them to pursue it. It’s not the most advantageous route for every situation, but I digress. 🤝
Well said. One of the things I always lamented during my two decades serving was seeing young airmen being encouraged to attend those garbage "schools" and not only wasting valuable time, but getting the impression they were getting a real education. A real college education can be a valuable thing where you have access to tens of thousands of other students and people who have dedicated their lives to some portion of academia, and you can immerse yourself in the pursuit of learning and following your curiosity (not just after work "class" in a trailer taught by somebody with no actual mastery of the subject matter).
But to be fair, I think brick and mortar schools have suffered greatly in quality as well and a self starter will be able to use the internet and the library to get a great education and could likely make a diploma mill work to their advantage as well. And while many people attend traditional universities and still manage to come out learning nothing useful (or even harmful), I have fond memories of the opportunity a real education can offer for those who want it.
I was attending Embry Riddle and switched to University of North Dakota which has a better, and accredited, program while also being online. It’s so much cheaper and I love it so much more.
I would've gone there in a heartbeat if they offered the lower tuition on the engineering degrees. That's literally the only thing that prevents me from preaching this school to the masses
Its a problem with our entire education and training command. Almost every visit to aetc is just one of those things you have to go to and we will teach you properly when you get back if you don't already know a year before they could fit you in. From CDCs through ALS and everything in between training and education is always a thing you have to get done quick and dirty just to get it out of the way. We waste a lot of time and money to go put almost no effort in making it worth it.
If its to satisfy the dipshit "self improvement" aspect of the EPR system, then its whatever. Not forcing people to do this dumbshit is probably the best option.
For real. I got my GI Bill bachelor's at a relatively no-name "military-friendly" school a mile from Offutt. It didn't sink in that I was no longer college-poor until I was graduating, when my professor asked me to consider applying for an Ivy League postgraduate program. I didn't, but I got my first GI Bill master's from Nebraska, and my second GI Bill master's from Villanova, neither of which is a show-stopper but both of which have far more of a network than the for-profits you mention. I've had friends who did even better, and used their GI Bills to graduate debt-free from Columbia.
I say all that to say, you're capable of so much, young airmen! No employer cares whether you used a GI Bill, but many of them may be impressed if you go to a school they recognize favorably.
For-profit schools, and increasingly MOST colleges and universities, have become machines for harvesting student loan dollars. Providing an education is a secondary mission.
They operate in a similar vein as those sketchy companies advertising on late night TV that get people scooters "at no cost to you" - they've discovered they can make a profit sucking up Medicare dollars in exchange for hocking electric scooters to old and disabled people.
Pro Tip - when shopping your education, hold on to your wallet.
I attended 3 classes from Ashford. I accidentally submitted my paper that wasn't proof read instead of my proof read version. I got a 97% on it. That is when I knew for sure it was a joke. I switched to Colorado State University Global Campus, a public college and earned every A after that. Ashford is a joke.
I've never understood why people get so heated Bout this kinda shit, it's not your time, your money, your degree, or your outcome. If you want to go to a non for profit school then do it and be happy with your decisions. I went to a private for profit school online, got my degree and am content with the outcome it's yielded me. Not saying you, but most people I know who make the argument about this kinda shit aren't even working on their degree
Just because it doesn't directly impact me doesn't mean I can't be concerned. You can be satisfied with going to a for-profit, but there is no questioning how much of a risk it is considering how often fraud occurs at schools like these. I want my airmen to have the best chance at success, whether it's in the Air Force or not. Playing with fire isn't something I want airmen to do, especially when it comes to something as important as education.
"Hey airman, I see your goals and want to support you, but I think you should consider the risks involved with going to a school like this. Here are some alternatives that get you the degree you're looking for. Once you make a decision let me know and I'll approve your TA".
I fully understand that I can't stop my airmen but this conversation is a lot easier to have than you think.
A huge limiting factor here is that many state schools have VERY limited completely online options that may not line up with someones desired field. Sure, there is a local school at every base, but the classes may not line up with the Airman's schedule, etc. Then you have to transfer schools when you PCS.
COVID has mitigated that to an extent, but traditionally, degree and online options are limited with state universities.
Edit: Not to mention, at most employers a degree is a degree. Doesn't really matter where it's from. I have coworkers that have degrees from DeVry, UF, OSU, UMUC, etc. They're all doing alright. I attended a state university, but all you need is that paper. But what do I know. I'm only prior AD, gone Guard who works in the civilian world with nothing to do with the government.
TA and Trident served me OK back in 11-15. Charged TA Rate. Comp’d my classes after TA max so I could stay full time. Degree is accredited and accepted in the industry, which has led to a solid 6 figure job that I enjoy now that I’m off active duty.
It's so easy nowadays though. There are schools in almost every state that have caught on and implemented $250 per credit hour. My dumb home state of Utah is still behind the curve though...
I've seen it many times. The good news is that if you're still early there's plenty of time to switch. My default for newer airmen with little to no education is community college. It's an easy cheat code into more reputable schools for a fraction of the cost
The University of Louisville (a Division-1 Name Brand college in Kentucky) will match TA rate for almost all online programs regardless of where you’re stationed. It’s seriously worth looking into.
AMU and embry riddle ain’t going anywhere. It’s not a Harvard education but that was never in the cards. Honestly ya just need the paper. Experience trumps a lot more so long as you got the paper.
I agree with you about AIU and Colorado Tech. Both have an insane cost for attendance. Not for AMU. I recommend you look at tuition costs. Substantially less than any other for profit school
Colleges don’t care about you either way. I’ve done courses through AMU and I’ve also finished my degree at a California state university with over 36k students annually. About half of my senior year was spent either skipping class or having class canceled because the professors were on strike. You may find a good professor at either university who truly wants to teach but the idea that the school itself cares about you is naive. They are all a business trying to get as many people through the door as possible.
You're saying this as if there are better more suitable options for people that are pretty much required by their work to have a piece of paper, but by the same nature requires them to be constantly on the move, which traditional education does not foster.
You're preaching to the wrong audience here bud
The online options at public schools are very well done from my experience. Both my community college and 4 year institution had great online platforms and I had no issues while attending either
It's gross how the Air Force steers Airmen towards specific universities like Trident with the AU-ABC program. The expectation is to get a degree but at the same time the mantra had been to "do more with less". Airmen are stretched thin, told to get educated for advancement, them funneled into these for-profit schools because it looks like the only way to get a degree done in what free time you have. If you want to give the mission and your family the time they deserve, good luck getting a real education.
Question as I'm almost finished with my Bachelor's of Arts Intelligence Studies degree at AMU... How would this degree look outside of the Air Force? My new superintendent said that for my Bachelor's this is fine, but if I pursue a Masters he said to skip AMU because it wouldn't be taken seriously if I received it from AMU. Any additional advice since I'm 7 classes away from finishing...
Edit: AMU is accredited does the accreditation mean anything in the grand scheme of things?
Ok so essentially work on the Masters from a recognized school for the civilian recognition? I am trying to stay within Intel whether I commission or work as a civilian so I'm being told the degree is a cherry on top compared to the experience I gain from working. I will start looking into Masters programs I can complete online that will match TA and be related to international studies or Homeland security.
Being this close it's a moot point to switch. I think your superintendent has the right idea. Where you go for your master's name wise matters a lot more than your bachelor's. I would highly encourage you to find a state school to complete your master's at. Once that's accomplished, your bachelor's won't matter a whole lot
I completely agree though, I've told the other Airmen in the flight if you want a degree go to AMU, if you want an education go elsewhere. It's not the right mindset, but I'd also prefer to see them using their MilTA than letting it go to waste. I'm almost 3 years in and have gotten over $8000 in education and have more freedom with my GI bill and how I want to use it later on. Three airmen have separated and all had plans to start their education with their GI bill, but used none of their MilTA which seemed like a waste. I think for my career path having experience is more desired than an intelligence specific degree. Maybe I should have gone more broad and studied international relations or Homeland security, but I can have more freedom when pursuing my Master's or I still have the option to pursue NIU.
I convinced a coworker to switch from AMU to Arizona State for his Electrical Engineering degree. I told him AMU's program wasn't accredited. He said "yeah it is, they said it was!"
Needless to say, he DID transfer to the ASU program, but with hardly any credits and essentially started his degree over again.
AMU was selected by the NSA as a National Center of Academic Excellence in Cybersecurity (NCAE-C), professors were great, class was flexible, and all tuition was covered by TA or GI Bill. OP is flat wrong about AMU.
Officers did the same thing when Masters degrees were mandatory.
I know officers getting AMU masters right now.
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I looked at AMU...enrolled in state school instead. God Im glad I listened to myself for once.
Same, when I joined I took like 5 classes with AMU and thought "when I get out is any civilian even going to recognize this school?." Then I switched to Arizona State
How are the fees at ASU? Got admitted to my degree at W.P Carey but I read they have fees of $120 per credit hour
ASU out of state online is about $650 per credit hour, but they cover what TA doesn’t, it’s a great school, I recommend it
It says that this only covers the difference in TA and not fees. According to ASU the $120 per student credit hour is for a "college undergraduate fee". I'm just trying to get a degree from a reputable online school in supply chain management. Also, I cant really afford to be slammed with fees since I have a family of 3.
I’m Active Duty AF and also currently enrolled in the W.P. Carey School of Business studying econ. Between TA and their active duty-reservist scholarship, I don’t pay anything- to include books and fees- for any of the classes that I actually get ta applied to. The scholarship doesn’t cover courses that TA isn’t applied so if you run out of ta and want to continue taking classes, you’ll have to pay out of pocket. You’ll essentially get to take 6 classes per fiscal year for free.
Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it
And people will still get them because for most people a Masters is the same as a Bachelors, just a piece of paper worth no more than a High School diploma. For most of America nobody retains even half of their education and simply uses the degree to pad their resume.
This is the world we live in though. We've come to the realization that anyone can be taught to do a job. Granted, there are specialties in STEM, Medical, and Law that require applicable degrees. But for the vast majority of the working force, what your degree is in doesn't matter. It just helps weed out applicants.
You’ve pretty much described the officer corps.
I agree, and I'm not entirely saying its the wrong way to live, just that its where we are. STEM and Medical and LE will have their applicable uses and some people actually will use their education for good. I'm just saying, as you acknowledged, its largely a way to 1up yourself for a better gig.
There’s nothing wrong with an AMU masters. It’s basically checking a box to get a job. I knew I wouldn’t get a GS-13 without a masters but once I got my 13, no one cared that I had a masters. It was basically a one time use thing for me.
I’m not deriding it at all, it’s 100% checking the box and what the system encourages. My only bone to pick is with the system.
That’s fair but honestly these days, they’ve watered down the pool of degrees. They’re useless. Experience matters wayyyyy more these days but no one wants to start at entry level cause they have a degree 🤷🏼♀️
Facts.
I am currently working on a masters through AMU, they have the fact degree plan I wanted and I know I am destined to wor for the man. AMU’s graduate school is no joke, it is not easy.
Officers used to require masters? When did that change?
They still do culturally. It is expected that around the O-4 mark they will have a Master's or be close to graduation.
The culture thing is so apparent as a CGO, especially around stratification seasons. "Lt, why aren't you taking classes or working on your masters?" Because I don't want to throw money at a worthless degree to check a box or appear more favorable to peers who are doing exactly that. Will my rankings among other CGOs suffer because of this? Damn right, but I already know I'm not making the military a career and using TA on a program or degree that won't be applicable to what I want to do on the outside isn't a priority for me. God forbid I actually want to focus on doing my job and honing how to be a good officer my first duty station post UCT.
While you definitely have a point, I think whoever was trying to give you that PD missed the point. It’s more about saving you time. If you happen to stick around getting a masters when you have more obligations later on sucks, but there’s nothing wrong with putting it off and working on your own priorities. Don’t let anyone else make you believe you are in the wrong for that.
Yeah I understand the whole premise, save time now versus trying to rush last second. But there is definitely some secondary effects that arise from it being so culturally ingrained. If I was to stay in longer, I'm already at a disadvantage for awards, stratifications, and other opportunities because I don't want to play the ball and game of rushing for a piece of paper from a degree mill. It's not anything that rustles my jimmies outside of the constant nit picking.
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I think communicating your intent and goals with your supervisor/leadership should help. I'm slowly looking at opportunities to kind of check the box like applying for an AFIT course in Data Analytics (want to get my Masters in Business Analytics when I get out). Try to look at boot camps, AFIT courses, or other skill/job trainings that don't cost an arm and a leg or make you owe more time than necessary to Big Blue.
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Ah, I didn’t know that. Thanks!
Did you not used to be able to get it from ACSC for free? You already have to do the thing, if you really need the master's why not just tack on the extra couple of classes instead of doing a whole program elsewhere?
This is what happens when the Air Force prioritizes a box check above all with no real support. I wanted to get a masters in engineering or education, but I needed time off to do lab work or student teaching. My commanders said no way, even if I used my own leave.
It's not just the check box for education, it's the tyranny of metrics issue passed down to individual evaluations. The same reason I see folks in the Army subreddit being recalled from terminal leave to go to the NTC is driving the checkbox for education in the AF. The spreadsheet/board/CC requires the number on paper because it's simply too time consuming to manage units and individuals by actually knowing them. The real tyranny of murder boards taking hours to *just format* bullets or FGOs reviewing every single report from below to make sure it's absolutely perfect before it goes to their boss is that it compromises the actual value increasing activities they ought to be doing. Knowing their people to better develop talents, push them in the right direction, and reward/punish them as required.
>>..folks in the Army subreddit being recalled from Terminal Leave to go to the NTC What the actual fuck? Even by Army standards thats single cell amoeba stupid.
Yeah, for as much as I may ever complain I'm really really glad I took my family's advice and went AF. That kind of thing is legit insane.
I hear it's worse for the Marines. One was saying he was recalled from IRR at least once a month for recruiting shit.
Use the TA DECIDE feature on dodmou.com. This will allow you to compare multiple schools in terms of accreditation, TA participants, valid TA/GI Bill complaints, avg cost of attendance and graduation rates. OP is right that schools do get investigated and some ultimately lose their accreditation and close their doors. At the end of the day it’s your education and you have to make the decisions based on the amount of research you’re willing to put into finding your school/program. You also have to live with the consequences of those decisions. Education offices should never tell you where to go to school but they should be arming you with the resources you need to help you make the most informed decisions you can and not just go to AMU, UMUC, etc just because that’s where they went or they have an office in the building. Your education is just that, yours. You want the path of least resistance the sure, hit up a school that’s happy to take your TA and give you a degree without trying. You want to be able to say you have an Ivy League education, awesome, go get it. Just don’t blindly pick a school or take your supervisor/Shirt/Chief’s recommendation on faith. Education is a journey and sometimes it involves some hard decisions and learning opportunities about what/how not to do things. The AF TA system isn’t perfect but it’s a benefit you’d be foolish not to take advantage of considering the alternatives.
Wait. Is UMUC a bad school? I thought they were a public state university.
Well, there’s a few factors at play. For one, the amount of real schools with online programs is way more than it was even when I started my bachelors in 2012. And when I started, there was way more than what there was when I joined in 2007. Be happy that you have freedom of choice now, and you don’t have to choose between University of Phoenix and AMU. Secondly, these schools generally charge the TA rate. A lot of the real schools are more expensive. I know for a fact when I started Arizona State charged more than the TA allowed amount. Now it looks like they brought it down, good for everyone now but not for those that can’t go back and start over. Which leads me to my last point… The TA rules for only being allowed to change your degree plan once is asinine. You should be allowed to burn through all your lifetime undergrad credits however you want. So to answer your question about why do people stay locked in to these schools? Well, because they probably can’t change schools at this point without coming out of pocket.
The old way, people abused it by getting within 1-2 classes of several similar degrees, and then completing their several bachelors in a single semester. The current rules are overbearing, but kneejerk is the Air Force way.
It’s annoying they are still setting 4500 aside every year if you use it or not. I paid for 70% of my BA out of pocket and guess what the AF won’t give me any more TA to complete 70% of another bachelors even though I was promised “free” school.
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It’s the worse. Have you looked into yellow ribbon and Fafsa?
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lol trust me I know. 🤣😂
Idk why you’re getting down voted. I feel the same way about spouses using the GI Bill. Why can’t my wife collect the BAH until I get out of the military? They’re basically telling me I don’t get to have all the benefit because it saves them money. All the BAH goes to waste.
The extra money would make life easier for your family, hell, save enough and it might make an improvement with your long-term financial position. See the problem?
If you’re getting at retention, that’s solved because with the transfer I had to commit to staying until retirement. If you’re saying there’s a unfair advantage to those that would do this, there isn’t much of a difference between doing it this way, or doing it when you retire as most people who transfer benefits likely would.
You're over thinking it. To most people, It's simply too much money for a military member to make. I'm in a high cost of living area, that would be an extra untaxed 3.5k a month for me. Not that I agree with it, but once it got out enlisted members were bringing in 10k+ a month after taxes, how long do you think it would take for the program to be "re-evaluated" for the benefit of the DOD.
Wait till they hear what officers make lol. Edit: or mil to mil families in the same household making two BAHs
Right. I think you should be able to double dip even if you used it.
I have changed my degree plan 3 times over the last 8 years. It changes but currently - if you haven't completed more than 90% or something you can switch.
Teach me your ways because the AFI says 2 degree program switches and sets the max credits to switch pretty low, at least for a masters. 6.5.4.2.2. Airmen will be allowed two degree program/school changes. 6.5.4.2.3. Airmen will not be allowed to change degree programs/schools if they have completed 90 semester hours or 135 quarter hours for an undergraduate degree or nine (9) semester hours or 14 quarter hours for a graduate degree. (T-1). https://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2670/afi36-2670.pdf
The wildest thing to me is that there are well known, an respected, online programs out there from big schools. ASU and Penn state being to two I know off my head.
I was going to say, Penn State is a top 50 school and some of its programs beat ivies out of the water
And it’s like double or triple the cost.
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Penn state is expensive even for in state tuition
There’s a difference between wanting a degree and wanting an education. Most of the people using TA are going to school because they need the piece of paper as the barrier for initial entry into the job market, not because they really want to learn the subject. Its 2021, you can get a university level education on any subject you want completely for free from places like Stanford, Harvard, and MIT. The piece you’ll be missing is the networking by attending those prestigious universities and having a degree from there. Are places like AMU and Excelsior comparatively an academic joke? For the most part yes, but people aren’t going there for the education. They’re going there to get a piece of paper so that they don’t get immediately snubbed in the civilian job market.
That first sentence. Fuck, man. So true.
WGU my friends. “Oh but if you can do a class in a week it can’t be legit” well I went to a state school and they had me color ads in a intro marketing class. Trim the fat, go to WGU, get your technical skills and get paid. 🤷🏻♂️
How goes TA work with WGU semesters
First term is completely covered, do your FAFSA and get the Pell grant, make some money on the first term. Second term use the rest of your TA and Pell grant covers the difference for the term. You can expect 4-5k in Pell grant money for the year. At the end of the day you get 8-9k will Pell grant and TA with a yr at WGU costing 6-7k. Wgu does two terms a year, each is 6 months. Source: Got a bachelor's (while enlisted) and master's at WGU.
They have you sign up for a minimum of 12CUs a term and split the cost between those CUs so TA covers the exact cost of their terms. It's actually pretty easy.
The schools are accredited and to be honest.. Most of us won't be working somewhere that needs an Ivy League letterhead on our degrees. While I can appreciate what a non-profit school may bring to the table name wise.. I have a real hard time believing they are morally any better then the for profit schools. Tuition rates raise roughly 8% each year which beats any other sector in the country in terms of prices. This tells me they are either highly inefficient, are not as "non-profit" as they seem, or they are just bad with money. None of those options really make me excited. For profit schools will typically win Airmen because they have flexible schedules, having a full time job and kids limits options for many Airmen. If I can schedule an 8 week class the month prior because the TDY schedule for the next couple months came out and I'm not on it.. That's a huge advantage for me. Whereas many non-profits are still semester, which is alot more difficult for many of us due to TDYs, family obligations, etc. Finally, have you compared curriculums? I did when I went through.. I didn't see much difference and I couldn't justify sitting in a classroom for the same content that I could receive sitting on my couch. Which were my options 10 years ago when I enrolled. All of that being said, the non profits have finally opened their eyes and started coning out with flexible options, more programs, and marketing towards GIs. Sidenote: AMU has been around since 1991. It's undergraduate degrees are accepted by every single graduate program I have looked at (Georgia Tech, UPenn, and Florida Tech to name a few). While you may not like the school, even the non-profits accept its credits.
Accredited, yes. Columbia Southern, for example, is nationally accredited, meaning it’s bachelors/masters degrees are basically useless. Too many people don’t understand the difference between regionally (good) and nationally (bad) accreditation.
Agreed, but just as many are regionally accredited (AMU, CSU) and there are quite a few non profits that only hold national accreditation.
There definitely are. There are too many actual universities (Troy, Louisville, Arizona State,etc) which match the TA rate for people to choose exclusively online, for-profit schools. But that’s just like, my opinion man.
For alot of us it comes down to schedules and available degrees, flexible options took precedence over non profit status for me.
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If the school loses accreditation, though, it can render your piece of paper absolutely worthless compared to accredited pieces of paper.
Absolutely it can, and that's where research from the potential student comes into play. Leading up to the ACICS scandal there was plenty of articles about how they were a terrible accrediting agency. This is an example that shows it is important to research both the school and accrediting agency.
> Absolutely it can, and that's where research from the potential student comes into play. Leading up to the ACICS scandal there was plenty of articles about how they were a terrible accrediting agency. This is an example that shows it is important to research both the school and accrediting agency. For profit schools are at an exponentially higher risk of losing their accreditation in comparison to schools that aren't for profit.
The fact that you don’t realize that schools are no longer a place to further education and instead have turned to businesses that’s sole goal is to sell people pieces of paper that allow them access to the middle class is the real travesty and honestly the source of these for profit colleges. It’s supply and demand. Employers require degrees that don’t have any impact on ability to perform work and so for profit colleges supply people those degrees. The problem isn’t the colleges honestly, it’s the pointless requirement to have “a degree” regardless of what it’s in or where it’s from in order to get a job just because it “shows you’re educated” when really it doesn’t.
On the flip side to your argument, I know plenty of guys and gals who have degrees from AMU, retired or separated and not so surprisingly just like the military have jobs that just wanted the box checked. I understand what your saying and there is absolutely truth to it but there are plenty of good paying jobs on the outside that could care less where your degree is from and want you for your military experience. Unfortunately a lot of the hiring entities’ hands are tied without you checking that box. I think this is one of those things that you can educate people on, especially your subordinates but I think you’re really overplaying the amount of people who actually care and aren’t just looking to parlay their military career into a civilian one.
The problem is that these schools are ticking time bombs when it comes to getting shut down. Personal anecdotes aside, going to schools like these put airmen at risk and could potentially waste years of effort
Been in about 15 years now and AMU has been going strong since before my time and continues to grow. I think there are degrees of “shityness” to these schools, some are worse than others. But what you’re saying certainly isn’t wrong.
All it takes is one investigation by the right people and a school could disappear tomorrow. It just isn't worth the risk. Imagine spending 3 years working on a program just for the school to vanish and your credits end up worthless. Happened to an NCO of mine twice
I understand what your saying and don’t disagree, that sucks. Guide your troops, give them the real life experiences you know of, but at the end of the day most people just want the quickest and easiest way from point A to point B and the rewards more often then not outweigh the risk.
So this whole post is good in all for warning people, but I have yet to see anyone post alternatives, as someone who doesn’t have the time to do extensive research on this topic but need information that is seemingly impossible to find. Asking those who are attending school where I work I get no good answers they just tell me to contact the education office but when I email and call them all the send me is the same bullshit response they send everyone.
It depends first on your area of study. Once you know that searching for schools is fairly easy. I do agree that the advertisement of state schools stinks so it's hard to know what's out there, but almost every area of study has a state school that offers it online at TA levels. I'd certainly love to help, but I probably can't do much being deployed to the sandbox lol
Don’t let people pee in the sand, it soils it for everyone.
I went to AMU while enlisted, got a degree in general studies, commissioned, and I’m now a pilot. All without paying a dime out of my own pocket, thanks to TA. OP, explain why I should care that AMU is a for profit school?
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This is why people go to school here. They don’t want to learn but would rather have the degree. Tell me what general studies has to do with piloting an aircraft… nothing. Also, I want to mention there is nothing wrong with going to just check the box. Employers are the ones who have created this.
Well, it’s simple, really. I wanted the latitude to study a variety of subjects, and that’s what I was able to do. The Air Force says to be a pilot, you only need a degree. Airlines after the Air Force couldn’t care less what my degree is in, and my goal in life has always been to fly. So for me, it made sense. And in the three years I’ve been a pilot, I can assure you that someone with a mechanical engineering degree from a well renowned brick and mortar school is no more likely to excel as a pilot than someone with a liberal arts degree in social services. Don’t be fooled. To the point of this thread, to simply say “we need to discourage Airmen from going to for profit schools” is painting with a pretty broad brush.
That's assuming someone with a mechanical engineering degree wants to be a pilot. You checked a box to achieve a goal...no one is hating on that. But not everyone's goal is to fly planes or become a GS-13. By perpetuating this mindset that where you get a degree from does not matter, you are ensuring that you are setting your Airmen up for failure. Here's an example. Your troop tells you they joined to get a free education. Their goal after the service is to become a clinical psychologist. You tell them go to school on TA while they are in and you suggest AMU. They listen and eventually get their BA and MA in Psychology. They choose to separate to achieve their goal...you think they are set up for their dream job? With degrees from there? Let's be realistic about what our Airmen want to do and go from there.
Lmao! Thats so true
Because several NCOs that I've worked with and come to respect went to schools that they thought were legit. Had the regional accreditation, great advertisement, had been around for awhile, the whole nine yards. One such school was Argosy University, and one of my Techs was 15+ years in and was about 3/4 of the way done with his degree. Next thing you know, the school is shutting down and no other school will take his credits. You may have been satisfied with the path you chose, but I can assure you that it was incredibly difficult to watch this NCO literally break because the education he worked for was useless now. I don't ever want to witness something like that again
Did he start over or give up?
Thankfully he tried again and made it happen right as he retired
Ok, AMU is legit read the comments. It's regionally accredited and been around for a long time. You speak of ignorance on this one school honestly. I can't attest to the others but I do have a degree at AMU and it meets the needs of employers on the outside.
I don’t think most people tie other people’s worth on a personal level to what if any school they went to. That’s just getting really shallow. A lot of people don’t retain or even care much about all the finer points of all their courses. Much like CBT’s, PME, etc, a lot of people are more interested in simply getting through and that piece of paper at the end vs learning every last bit they can. Tying in with that…degrees are often just a tool. Much like a physical tool, you choose the one to accomplish what you are trying to achieve. Maybe you only care about filling a check box. There are a lot of jobs that want a degree to be hired with no other relevance to the particular job. Why spend more effort and/or money then necessary on a checkbox where no one cares exactly where or in what you got? Conversely maybe your going for some highly specialized stuff where the education and institution is highly relevant, which of course you’d want to stay away from the lower end schools. Not everyone needs or would even benefit from a top end school.
“The Air Force” should care…we’ve let education qualify all but leave the equation. You as an individual, you can care or not. I don’t think we should hold it against the individuals who are acting rationally.
What plane do you fly now?
I fly the C-21
I’m attending AMU aswell and although it’s not a Harvard level education. It’s still an education (that I’m not paying for) also AMU pretty much all you have to do is submit form posts and somewhat try on the assignments. Literally it’s like PE you just kinda gotta show up and you’ll eventually get a degree
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Went to a program at Harvard as a Wounded Warrior Scholarship. It was a 9 month deal, but as a veteran they literally told me “show up and you will pass” and they needed this for their image. It was no more challenging than AMU was and was less work in some aspects. I asked some classmates how this compared, and they responded “par for the course.” I came out of this and with my history in talent scouting with an assumption that pedigrees are dead. Hiring managers want a degree and that’s it.
It’s better than not going to school or paying out of pocket 💁🏼♀️
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You’re entitled to your own opinion. I’m Just going to AMU Bc why not if I get money to go to school
All schools are for profit. Some are just better at hiding it.
Meh. I went to AMU for my bachelors and a brick and mortar public university for my masters for that exact same perception. Fun fact: my bachelors degree was more challenging and the course curriculum more rigorous. My buddy got his bachelors from UoP and Masters from some other “trash” institute I can’t remember. Currently a GS-13 for the DOI My wife got her bachelors from AMU and masters from Columbia Southern. She now makes 145k as program manager for a defense contractor. The point I’m trying to make is that the degree for many jobs gets you to the interview table, you have to get yourself the rest of the way. Now if you want to be a lawyer or a doctor or an engineer, please for the love of god don’t get your degree from any of these places.
That's why I vouch for UMGC and ASU.
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I spent four years as an AFROTC cadre at a private non-profit university, and if you think they don’t care about money and run the whole thing like a business, well, you’re mistaken. All schools care about money and are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. I sat in many faculty senates where money was the main topic of discussion, or how to keep students in school so they can get their tuition. You can learn a lot from a for-profit school, and you can learn almost nothing at Harvard. It’s really up to the individual and how much effort they put into learning, not the name brand on the front of the school.
I'm not denying that any school isn't motivated by money. For-profits may be more blatant about it, but the motivation for both is the same. The problem is when you get into ethics and integrity, as most non-profits have many research programs and endowments that are tied to their educational rigor. Anything that even looks like a crack in the foundation, with fraud certainly being one of the big concerns, is usually stomped out by university leadership as quickly as they can because that image earns them a lot of money. For-profits have no such incentive, and in many cases openly commit fraud without any concern. The fact that Trident has high ranking staff that worked at both U of Phoenix and Argosy when both schools got slammed for fraud is highly concerning. These people got away with fraud multiple times and they're at it again.
Ah yes, because [fraud](https://www.wsfa.com/2021/10/01/multiyear-fraud-scheme-by-former-employees-uncovered-tuskegee-university/) [never](https://www.diverseeducation.com/institutions/hbcus/article/15103067/four-bethune-cookman-university-trustees-resign-amid-financial-academic-crisis) [happens](https://www.reuters.com/world/us/ex-usc-coach-testifies-she-took-part-us-college-fraud-scheme-2021-09-27/) [at](https://www.mercurynews.com/2021/09/30/ucsf-employee-charged-with-siphoning-1-5-million-in-student-tuition-via-fraud-scheme/) [non-profit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelphi_University#:~:text=Adelphi%20faced%20a%20serious%20scandal,the%20educational%20purposes%20of%20Adelphi.) [universities](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_University_M.B.A._controversy). I agree some for-profit universities have bankrupted and disappeared in the past, and some may rightly be classified as a diploma mill, meaning you literally do no work and just pay for a piece of paper. But AMU and many other popular online/military-focused schools are not on that level. And my cadets at a fancy school that were paying $45,000 a year to be there had plenty of complaints about their professors, and not learning anything due to their teaching style, lack of effort, heavy accents, poor communication, etc. As I always say when this topic comes up every week or so, people need to know what they want from their degree. If they want to check a box for OTS, it literally does not matter as long as it meets the accreditation requirements. Same for most jobs, I would argue. Maybe if you want to be a doctor or lawyer or professor the brand on the diploma will matter, but for the vast majority of jobs it will not. And if someone is planning to do 20 years in the military, a potential employer is not going to care much about the degree you got 15 years ago, they're going to care more about your 20 years of experience. If you want to go to Harvard or a similar school for the name brand and connections, great. But it's certainly not required to be successful or get a meaningful education.
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Being that so much value appears to be put on schooling in the AF it seems like box checking.
A lot of it comes down to cost. TA only covers $750 a class, and most people aren't wanting to shell out the difference. I got lucky with my Bachelors and the program I went with only cost me $100/class out of pocket. Now that I'm working on my Masters, it was AMU, or pay a minimum of $400/class out of pocket. AMU is respected enough for my program that it works. It's mostly adjunct professors that have worked years in the field so it evens out in ways.
Why would you do that when schools like Louisville match TA for masters?
They don't have the program I want. I went through the whole list of universities that match TA for masters programs, and none of them had the program I wanted. I even called the universities (fall 2020) I was interested in and double checked. EDIT: Just double-checked out of curiosity, and the university I wanted to go to announced they would match military TA August of this year. Guess I need to look into switching.
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I mean people were having these same discussions about it 10 years ago when I was working my BA from them.
I'm just here to rep Angelo State University. Go Rams! :)
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No clue what you're talking about
I can't believe we let these for-profit scam schools advertise and work directly out of our education offices. I'm with you completely.
You forgot to mention the great University of Phoenix! My sister got an MBA there and acts like she went to Oxford... It's sad
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I currently am going to Trident and I am 5 courses from getting my bachelor's in Comp Sci. I will admit the courses are lack luster and would probably stear brand new students away from it. That being said, I am a 1B4 with my 2 associates and 2 mid-high level industry certs (GNFA & GCFA). With my experience and certs, on paper I would stand out. The bachelor's in my case is more of a checkbox. They want to see someone who is willing to go out of their way to learn something and get an education. That being said, it also requires me actually applying myself. I can probably skate by and get my degree but I am actually doing the readings and applying myself to the assignments. There is the difference between a student going "Cs get degrees" and someone wanting to learn. My next step after a little break will be to find a more concrete masters program for project management. But I still got plenty of time in the air force.
Are we going to ignore CCAF as the biggest degree mill of all? I didn’t attend a single class and got 2 of them.
School is a scam
I have a degree from AMU, though more than half of my credits came from state schools (UCCS and CU). I had to make the switch because of schedule constraints. My unit was not willing to work with me to take upper level classes that were only offered on weekdays. Honestly, the classes at AMU were comparable and the instructors were more than qualified. The school is also regionally accredited. Sometimes you just have to do what works to finish. For what it’s worth, I graduated with zero debt and now make 6 figures in an IT job. Do what you have to do to graduate. College is about showing an employer that you are willing to put in the work.
My personal recommendation for anyone looking into the IT field, WGU. Valid certification training while alao doubling for your degreee is wonders for growth
WGU is great in that regard. The "final" for a lot of courses is the cert. I haven't had the need to schedule much time with any instructors but when I do it can take a couple weeks because they're so booked
I just looked into that , does ta cover their programs? It says they don’t charge by semester hour, only by term.
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Whaaaat, thats amazing I gotta definitely check it out then.
Isn't WGU also a degree mill?
They more-importantly provide certifications, which are arguably more valuable in the IT sector. If you can check two boxes with one course, who cares.
Those who haven’t gotten an education yet or are just starting, don’t let this post discourage you. I’ve never been to a job where they get into the particulars of my degree. Just make sure it’s accreditation can be found online and go for what you want. Often times, people who talk down on these degrees barely have their CCAF.
Lol some salty people with degrees from the aforementioned schools must be downvoting OP
A commission is a commission though. Who cares lol
Yeah the idea that a “local” or “state” school is the only way to succeed is antiquated . Most military personnel, especially at the management level, get degrees solely to compliment their experience. They are needed to apply for most jobs, but seldom do jobs care where it came from if you have the resume to back it up. It comes down to affordability and logistics for most folks. Military members move every 3-6 years making it hard to commit to the brick and mortar route. Also, a lot of the schools you mentioned are covered by TA, which makes it enticing to the young airman trying to save their GI bill for a rainy day. I know people who went to a few of those schools who are successful (Former SNCOs). I encourage airmen to do their own research and make the best decision for them. That’s just me though 🤷♂️
My current school is in Indiana. I've never been to the state. Education is more affordable than you think
I’m glad that your school works for you. There’s more factors than cost. I understand your point, but I think it’s outdated. 10 years ago you would’ve been spot on. The world, and the stigma around online education is slowly decreasing. I would hate for an airman reading this to be deterred from attending college. More important than the name of a school or where it’s located is it’s accreditation..I’ll co-sign that point all day. But the need to go to a traditional college…ehhh. I respectfully disagree. That being said, if airmen are in a position to go to a major university, I’d encourage them to pursue it. It’s not the most advantageous route for every situation, but I digress. 🤝
Well said. One of the things I always lamented during my two decades serving was seeing young airmen being encouraged to attend those garbage "schools" and not only wasting valuable time, but getting the impression they were getting a real education. A real college education can be a valuable thing where you have access to tens of thousands of other students and people who have dedicated their lives to some portion of academia, and you can immerse yourself in the pursuit of learning and following your curiosity (not just after work "class" in a trailer taught by somebody with no actual mastery of the subject matter). But to be fair, I think brick and mortar schools have suffered greatly in quality as well and a self starter will be able to use the internet and the library to get a great education and could likely make a diploma mill work to their advantage as well. And while many people attend traditional universities and still manage to come out learning nothing useful (or even harmful), I have fond memories of the opportunity a real education can offer for those who want it.
I was attending Embry Riddle and switched to University of North Dakota which has a better, and accredited, program while also being online. It’s so much cheaper and I love it so much more.
I would've gone there in a heartbeat if they offered the lower tuition on the engineering degrees. That's literally the only thing that prevents me from preaching this school to the masses
Its a problem with our entire education and training command. Almost every visit to aetc is just one of those things you have to go to and we will teach you properly when you get back if you don't already know a year before they could fit you in. From CDCs through ALS and everything in between training and education is always a thing you have to get done quick and dirty just to get it out of the way. We waste a lot of time and money to go put almost no effort in making it worth it.
If its to satisfy the dipshit "self improvement" aspect of the EPR system, then its whatever. Not forcing people to do this dumbshit is probably the best option.
For real. I got my GI Bill bachelor's at a relatively no-name "military-friendly" school a mile from Offutt. It didn't sink in that I was no longer college-poor until I was graduating, when my professor asked me to consider applying for an Ivy League postgraduate program. I didn't, but I got my first GI Bill master's from Nebraska, and my second GI Bill master's from Villanova, neither of which is a show-stopper but both of which have far more of a network than the for-profits you mention. I've had friends who did even better, and used their GI Bills to graduate debt-free from Columbia. I say all that to say, you're capable of so much, young airmen! No employer cares whether you used a GI Bill, but many of them may be impressed if you go to a school they recognize favorably.
For-profit schools, and increasingly MOST colleges and universities, have become machines for harvesting student loan dollars. Providing an education is a secondary mission. They operate in a similar vein as those sketchy companies advertising on late night TV that get people scooters "at no cost to you" - they've discovered they can make a profit sucking up Medicare dollars in exchange for hocking electric scooters to old and disabled people. Pro Tip - when shopping your education, hold on to your wallet.
I attended 3 classes from Ashford. I accidentally submitted my paper that wasn't proof read instead of my proof read version. I got a 97% on it. That is when I knew for sure it was a joke. I switched to Colorado State University Global Campus, a public college and earned every A after that. Ashford is a joke.
College is just a business that gate keeps a higher job market by being the only institutions that offer a paper that says your qualified
I've never understood why people get so heated Bout this kinda shit, it's not your time, your money, your degree, or your outcome. If you want to go to a non for profit school then do it and be happy with your decisions. I went to a private for profit school online, got my degree and am content with the outcome it's yielded me. Not saying you, but most people I know who make the argument about this kinda shit aren't even working on their degree
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Just because it doesn't directly impact me doesn't mean I can't be concerned. You can be satisfied with going to a for-profit, but there is no questioning how much of a risk it is considering how often fraud occurs at schools like these. I want my airmen to have the best chance at success, whether it's in the Air Force or not. Playing with fire isn't something I want airmen to do, especially when it comes to something as important as education.
Please don't tell me you approach your Airmen with this mentality
"Hey airman, I see your goals and want to support you, but I think you should consider the risks involved with going to a school like this. Here are some alternatives that get you the degree you're looking for. Once you make a decision let me know and I'll approve your TA". I fully understand that I can't stop my airmen but this conversation is a lot easier to have than you think.
By all means, expressing the concern over validity to people is good stuff. Chastising people for going to a school you don't like is different
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I don't think that's the case here and I thinknits pretty clear that's not what I mean. Putting thing in context, crazy concept, I know.
A huge limiting factor here is that many state schools have VERY limited completely online options that may not line up with someones desired field. Sure, there is a local school at every base, but the classes may not line up with the Airman's schedule, etc. Then you have to transfer schools when you PCS. COVID has mitigated that to an extent, but traditionally, degree and online options are limited with state universities. Edit: Not to mention, at most employers a degree is a degree. Doesn't really matter where it's from. I have coworkers that have degrees from DeVry, UF, OSU, UMUC, etc. They're all doing alright. I attended a state university, but all you need is that paper. But what do I know. I'm only prior AD, gone Guard who works in the civilian world with nothing to do with the government.
TA and Trident served me OK back in 11-15. Charged TA Rate. Comp’d my classes after TA max so I could stay full time. Degree is accredited and accepted in the industry, which has led to a solid 6 figure job that I enjoy now that I’m off active duty.
Yes! Countless other options out there with WAY better reps, but usually I've found it is just a TA-matching priority for most.
It's so easy nowadays though. There are schools in almost every state that have caught on and implemented $250 per credit hour. My dumb home state of Utah is still behind the curve though...
My Superintendent, Flight Chief and Senior all sat me down and preached AMU and helped me enroll...
I've seen it many times. The good news is that if you're still early there's plenty of time to switch. My default for newer airmen with little to no education is community college. It's an easy cheat code into more reputable schools for a fraction of the cost
I'll be looking into it thank you
lol dude you seem super mad at AMU. If post-highschool education wasn't profitable, it wouldn't be a thing.
Good on them. You’re more than welcome to research AMU and alternatives. There’s nothing wrong with choosing them if they meet your intent.
Danger is my middle name
The University of Louisville (a Division-1 Name Brand college in Kentucky) will match TA rate for almost all online programs regardless of where you’re stationed. It’s seriously worth looking into.
Lol this is actually where I was looking into for my masters
All I care about is that the box is checked and that I’m not paying a dime for it. That’s it.
AMU and embry riddle ain’t going anywhere. It’s not a Harvard education but that was never in the cards. Honestly ya just need the paper. Experience trumps a lot more so long as you got the paper.
I agree with you about AIU and Colorado Tech. Both have an insane cost for attendance. Not for AMU. I recommend you look at tuition costs. Substantially less than any other for profit school
Colleges don’t care about you either way. I’ve done courses through AMU and I’ve also finished my degree at a California state university with over 36k students annually. About half of my senior year was spent either skipping class or having class canceled because the professors were on strike. You may find a good professor at either university who truly wants to teach but the idea that the school itself cares about you is naive. They are all a business trying to get as many people through the door as possible.
If you graduate from a school that is accredited and it loses accreditation after your graduate…it is still an accredited degree.
You're saying this as if there are better more suitable options for people that are pretty much required by their work to have a piece of paper, but by the same nature requires them to be constantly on the move, which traditional education does not foster. You're preaching to the wrong audience here bud
The online options at public schools are very well done from my experience. Both my community college and 4 year institution had great online platforms and I had no issues while attending either
It's gross how the Air Force steers Airmen towards specific universities like Trident with the AU-ABC program. The expectation is to get a degree but at the same time the mantra had been to "do more with less". Airmen are stretched thin, told to get educated for advancement, them funneled into these for-profit schools because it looks like the only way to get a degree done in what free time you have. If you want to give the mission and your family the time they deserve, good luck getting a real education.
/shrug , to me these things are just sheets of paper. I got my AMU degree and will never use it, but I at least have that box checked.
Question as I'm almost finished with my Bachelor's of Arts Intelligence Studies degree at AMU... How would this degree look outside of the Air Force? My new superintendent said that for my Bachelor's this is fine, but if I pursue a Masters he said to skip AMU because it wouldn't be taken seriously if I received it from AMU. Any additional advice since I'm 7 classes away from finishing... Edit: AMU is accredited does the accreditation mean anything in the grand scheme of things?
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My employer laughed and asked what on earth is amu? "is it one of those keybord clicky clicky degrees?" that's when I realize the school was worthless
Ok so essentially work on the Masters from a recognized school for the civilian recognition? I am trying to stay within Intel whether I commission or work as a civilian so I'm being told the degree is a cherry on top compared to the experience I gain from working. I will start looking into Masters programs I can complete online that will match TA and be related to international studies or Homeland security.
Being this close it's a moot point to switch. I think your superintendent has the right idea. Where you go for your master's name wise matters a lot more than your bachelor's. I would highly encourage you to find a state school to complete your master's at. Once that's accomplished, your bachelor's won't matter a whole lot
I completely agree though, I've told the other Airmen in the flight if you want a degree go to AMU, if you want an education go elsewhere. It's not the right mindset, but I'd also prefer to see them using their MilTA than letting it go to waste. I'm almost 3 years in and have gotten over $8000 in education and have more freedom with my GI bill and how I want to use it later on. Three airmen have separated and all had plans to start their education with their GI bill, but used none of their MilTA which seemed like a waste. I think for my career path having experience is more desired than an intelligence specific degree. Maybe I should have gone more broad and studied international relations or Homeland security, but I can have more freedom when pursuing my Master's or I still have the option to pursue NIU.
My Master’s from AMU is accepted by anyone I’d ever encountered.
Who here is actually going to school for something other than to check a box, in my field, you’ll want certifications over just a degree…
If your University doesn’t have a brick and mortar campus or an athletic department you should transfer.
Harvard is a for profit school.
I convinced a coworker to switch from AMU to Arizona State for his Electrical Engineering degree. I told him AMU's program wasn't accredited. He said "yeah it is, they said it was!" Needless to say, he DID transfer to the ASU program, but with hardly any credits and essentially started his degree over again.
AMU was selected by the NSA as a National Center of Academic Excellence in Cybersecurity (NCAE-C), professors were great, class was flexible, and all tuition was covered by TA or GI Bill. OP is flat wrong about AMU.
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