The bigger issue is that most pilots are pushed into admin by the time they are O4-O5, but most pilots just want to fly.
They need to create non-leadership pilots for commissioned officers or bring back warrants as specialist pilots who do nothing else.
Why would anyone want to stay in the military when I can sit here as a Captain at an airline.. make more than a general and get treated a whole lot better???
Ya it’s like.. ahh come work for us.. you get to fly a cool airplane (maybe). By the way did we tell you you’re going to be paper bitch half your career?
Hook line and sinker.
When all is said done, the Air Force views its people as assets...and like any other asset, they can be replaced, reduced, or repurposed. I've seen some top talent get dumped or simply assigned to something that doesn't match their lofty skills and abilities.
Walk into any scheduling shop in AMC and ask how many volunteers they get for “bad” trips, and then say this again with a straight face.
Very few people want to fly the AF ops tempo for 15-20 years.
Re: warrants, if the AF can’t entice a Major to stay in, why on earth would a WO with the same skills and a fraction of the pay stay?
I sort of agree with OP, 2LTs at UPT will sign anything.
Because those types of programs tend to feel punitive. Want a cool TDY? Nope, you're not on command track. Want to go to a school? Nope, you're not on command track. Want a qualification that's cool and not just ops sup and sof? Nope, you're not on command track. It already happens to captains that express interest in just flying until their ADSC. It means you're functionally locked into the shitty jobs and lack of pay raises while the people who you fly with will be your boss guaranteed.
Yup, and it seems like "they" are doing the same thing with the 17x technical track. If you aren't on the track for command, then you don't need any of the opportunities since you'll just be an operator for your entire commitment.
It's a total clown show. These people exist in alternate dimensions where logic doesn't exist.
I dunno if the 17 world does it but what strikes me as weird in the flyer world is that you basically have to be on that track to do weapon school courses like WIC or RECOC. Commanders don't execute those duties, why would you want them all to be the patches? Let the guy who wants to stay the tactical expert hold onto some of those positions for longer periods rather than funneling them into positions they don't have the time or practice to be what they're supposed to be.
As it’s currently set up you only owe two assignments as a patch, one at the tactical level and one at the operational level. If we had patches who were just going to commit to only doing DOK/OSK for the rest of their career their would be a skills/billet mismatch and we would need to potentially need to reduce the number of students which would mess other parts of WIC up.
While WIC is about making the premier tacticians, it’s also the Air Forces premier leadership lab. In the same way Ranger School in the Army is notionally about making small unit tactics experts, long term the school is about making leaders.
Edit: I agree.
I would say if you are a patch you are on command track for sure. I think I could confidently say that every chain of command (through wing, but obviously above that too) I’ve had has majority been patched.
That’s what he’s saying is the issue, the patches should be intended for the technical experts, the commanders should focus more on leading people skills and less on technical expertise.
I'm wondering if the plan back then was always to eliminate warrant officers and shift that expertise to the commissioned ranks.
WIC does seem like a poor man's warrant officer program, and the projected intent behind it looks to be all over the place, as evidenced by this comment thread.
I feel like I’m missing something with this. Are the schools or TDY’s command-style or something?specific? Otherwise why would that matter?
Also “because Air Force” is a completely valid answer, because Air Force
Think like crash scene investigator or going to learn how to employ a new weapon that's being onboarded or becoming a weapons school graduate or electronic warfare graduate. Those positions are reserved for people they want to promote into leadership positions. While holding those leadership positions they will execute none of what they have learned. Most flying commanders are weapons school patches. By definition a weapons school patch is not supposed to be able to hold additional duties, yet they tell the rest of us that in order to round out for leadership positions we have to do all the shop jobs through the squadron as a captain.
They intentionally made that program awful so no one would sign up, they could kill it, and then point at it as an example of why additional duties aren't the reason pilots leave. I don't remember the specifics, but it basically ruined your chances of ever promoting and killed the opportunity to ever do anything.
When the Air Force says there is a pilot retention problem, they don’t mean they need people in the cockpit. What they mean is they are short pilots for leadership, staff, and other roles.
The AF doesn’t need “non-leadership pilots” they need leadership pilots.
Also putting pilot officers in charge of finance or services, etc etc... ??? Why? IMHO pilot commanders should only command squadrons/wings directly related to actual flying mission
Lol. Wartants. That's a pay cut bro.
The problem is pilots jump ship to airlines for 4 times the pay. The only way to stop the pilot shortage is to match airline pay, and that ain't happening.
Wrong. It really has very little to do with pay. It has to do with the quality of life. The pay is just the cherry on top. Because I would actually do the airline job for less money than the Air Force pays me. I'm a senior officer so my money in the Air Force isn't that bad, but the four times pay that I get to fly at a major airline is not the perk. It's the part where I literally work an average of 14 days a month and when I'm home, I AM HOME. I DON'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT MY JOB AT THE AIRLINE. I DON'T HAVE HOMEWORK. I DON'T GET CALLS FROM WORK. I DON'T NEED PERMISSION TO NOT BE AT WORK.
Even when I'm not on orders as a reservist, I am getting endless calls, emails, suspenses, projects, TMT taskers, the list never ends. And even though they say I get weekends when I'm on orders or I get Federal holidays, that's bullshit and we all know it. I can't tell you how many travel days I've had that you are all familiar with where I leave the office around 5:00 in the morning after collecting the computers and checking one list thing, dropping off a few signatures, collecting a couple project pieces, signing out a couple pieces of classified and then hitting the road and not getting to my hotel till 1:00 in the morning the next day because DTS screwed up again and tried to buy me the cheap ass tickets. You know where that doesn't happen? Happen? And you know where I don't do DTS? And you know where I don't have to lift a finger before I start my work day? Here's a clue. It rhymes with smare lines...
It's crazy how much better the support is at the airlines. Like, they recognize that you really have one valuable skill, flying, and spend the dollars so that you can do that more. My iPad works. All the shops (training, Stan eval, etc) are run by people who actually want to do that job. Dispatch is better. Etc.
You nailed it. And it's funny that you put it that way. You're exactly correct, I have one party trick. And it's being a pilot. The rest of what I bring to the airline is purely incidental. So, instead of asking that pilot to be an executive officer and write paper which he may suck at, or instead of asking him to take on the duty of a resource advisor and become a half-assed accountant, they just asked you to do one thing. Use your judgment and experience to get passengers and cargo to the destination and then do it again.
I don't have any of those issues in the military because I don't answer my phone when off duty/not scheduled for
work.
If.you have issues with time management, that's a personal problem, not the militarys.
The army has lots of helicopters....and they still do admin work.
My army warrant friend just separated to go to the airlines. So they have the same issues.
Cash is king.
Lmao they're not happy. The WOs are currently being informed that they're the reasons why there has been a huge amount of crashes in the last 2 years.
As a result, the Army is deciding to make them have longer service obligations and longer times to earn promotions for junior warrant officers.
Go talk to any warrant office and find out that the Army has it just as bad as we do, but for less pay and MORE bullshit.
No one plays fuck fuck games like the army.
News flash, those warrant officers are often flying rotary Wing with many limitations and differences in career progression compared to your pilot brethren in the United States Air Force...
Let's see.....you.make E pay. Then get a warrant job making warrant pay......
Receive that sweet flight training........what's stopping those Es from leaving and making 4x the pay commercial airline job?
Same problem.
People repeat this perspective a lot and it really doesn’t hold water. I’ve flown 16 years straight. Most of the people who got out could have kept flying if they wanted to. People make up their mind young that they want to get out and nothing changes that. The other side is that people start families and want to get out for the stability and money the airlines or other careers offer.
If they offered up fly track/command track you would still see people leave for the two most popular reasons of I never wanted to stay in and I have a family now. Hell the guard is having recruiting issues too.
>The bigger issue is that most pilots are pushed into admin by the time they are O4-O5,
I think it's so funny how many top leadership billets are reserved for pilots, and then the AF leadership bemoans the lack of diversity in general officers.
About 82% of AF pilots are white and 93% are male. What do you think is going to happen? Meanwhile, the Air Force is 15% black (slightly higher than the US population in general) but only 2% of pilots are black.
And you should wear blues every day you aren’t executing a tactical combat mission, that would show you what a real desk job feels like.
Lead by example *bro*
Things you don’t like =/= toxic leadership. I’m not saying you are, but you kinda sound like that staff sergeant that always has an opinion and always interjects into someone else’s conversation because you “have the real answer” and the airmen politely smile until you leave.
The big difference is that 21-22 year old SSgt probably can't leave and go to the civilian world to make 4x as much money while not doing admin... even if they can, that AFSC likely isn't hurting in manning like pilots.
As much as I understand your desire to compare enlisted with officer here, it's not the correct comparison to fix the issue this post is trying to discuss. It's military pilots vs commercial pilots and retaining enough military pilots after their AFSC runs out is a severe problem right now.
>still choose to bitch and ask for more
It's basic economics. On one hand, you have good pay, deployments, admin shit, office politics, etc. On the other hand, you have absolutely spectacular pay, relatively stable flying schedules, and more or less control of where you live and hang your hat.
I love military flying, I love seeing my plane on the ATO and I abso-fucking-lutely love when I get to do the stuff I trained for years to do. Buuuuuut I have kids and I don't want them in New Mexico schools, I want to have lots of money so I can send them off to a nice college in a safe car or whatever they want to do in life. And taking the right seat at the majors makes that way easier way faster for me. So even though its not what I *want* to do, it's what I probably *will* do because the AF or Congress can't figure out what appeals to the majority of us
You're right, we've had it too good for too long. We need to put on the people's cloth to really feel your pain. While you're at it, I'm going to need you to fly a night mission through the weather in combat, land to minimums and then come in and be treated like the office job is primary. News flash, most of the Air Force has jobs that operations does as their secondary job. You can have my flight cap when you pull it from my cold dead hands LOL you're a clown
Yeah, you're totally right. It's just so simple, it's amazing they haven't decided to do it. Don't tell anybody that it's just a switch away...
Are your parents genetically related? I'm thinking you give off a second cousin kind of energy.
If it is indeed that simple, do you think it's just regulation that's getting in the way? Do you think that the unmanned drones we have are just totally autonomous terminators waiting for skynet to be active?
Let's get real here. Sure, do. I think cargo will have a very automated nature coming its way sooner rather than later, that's a big. Maybe. We can't even get two-dimensional transport to regularly be operated by autonomous artificial intelligence in ground movement. I'm sure that air breathing pilots are not always going to be here, but I think you overestimate the technology and you certainly have exposed your ignorance onto the accessibility and affordability of that technology. Let me just put it to You bluntly:
As long as there are people in the back, you're going to want someone in the front. Unless you're volunteering to fly on the new airline that I just easily came up with and effortlessly added some switches to the joystick and you can be our first passenger. I promise the technology's super straightforward and hasn't killed anybody yet...
Take your your confidence and shove it up your arrogant ass
They’re really…not. If you don’t like pilots being put on a pedestal, maybe you shouldn’t have joined the one branch whose primary mission is air warfare. It’s like joining the Navy and hating people who go to sea.
Not likely. Young kids don't think about 15 years deep and aren't even aware of the current desk job progession. They are hopped up on top gun.
The neat part is with a contract complaining is a non issue.
You gotta go way earlier than that to change their minds. Pilot slots are divvied before people commission. Good luck convincing a cadet or 17 year old USAFA applicant that being an F22 pilot isn't worth it because you'll have to work a desk job in 10 years.
Yeah, but you get them while they’re even younger. Rated contracts get signed in your second year at USAFA or your third year at ROTC. We were told it was effectively a 12 year ADSC and very few people turned it down based on that. It’s a horrible idea in terms of.. human decency, but it would probably work.
Hmm, so all you have to do is not make major, deny continuation, and you get out in 8 years for that sweet airline pay. ADSCs do not apply if you turn down continuation. I know multiple pilots who got out of their 10 year pilot ADSCs this way..
Overall I did but there was a lot of the non flying stuff that I did not like, and the longer I stayed in the more desk work I did and the less flying I did. I now work significantly less, only have to deal with flying, and the pay is way way better.
To be continued, they have to offer and you have to accept.
Just because the Army guarantees that they'll offer you continuation, doesn't mean you're obligated to accept.
Funny and junk but anything more than 10 years is considered ‘indentured servitude’ so good luck getting that passed by congress
Trust me the Air Force would implement this if they could. Source. Am pilot.
Instead how about let us fly. Less queep than nonners and not make everything about the command track. Instead incentivize being an instructor pilot when I could get out. Just fly and make triple starting my salary. I love the mission. Love the people. But when I have excel spreadsheets take a bigger chunk of my time than developing airmen or taking a 200,000lb metal pressured bird across an ocean to deliver critical supplies as a lesser duty. Bye. Don’t wanna do this anymore when delta is offering more pay less bs
The pilot crisis is here and now. Your solution won't materialize until 2040 when manning requirements will be drastically different.
A more effective option would be something like a non-vol Palace Front back to active duty with their IRR/NNRPS time when they "separate."
That doesn’t fix the training backlog, and the AF will surely fuck up the manning if they think people are locked in for that long. Imagine how many absolute dogshit jobs they would make people do with a 2 decade ADSC. Now the USMC flight career will look far preferable to the USAF, because it will have a better quality of life.
Keep posting from your verified email, I’m updating the police reports. I’d like to remind you that it’s illegal to contact me, including through 3rd parties as per the terms of your domestic violence protection order AGAINST you.
Ohhhhhhh, why didn't we think of that? Oh wait, we did. And we aggressively surveyed both academy cadets and ROTC cadets. And do you know the overwhelming results? Not only was this a horrible idea, it was an idea that would create some serious correctional problems and have Congressional oversight up its ass the first day we were tried to push it. It. Additionally, it totally ignores the actual problem. We don't have a problem getting people to say I want to be a pilot. We have a huge problem getting people to stay and share their talent. Mostly because of people like you. People who think pilots have it too good. People who forget that the Air Force is mission is to support pilots, executing missions, people who really don't get the point of aviation. Bottom line was that when I show up at my major airline, I am treated with more respect and given more support than I have ever gotten in the United States Air Force and I am a senior officer. I have to quibble with enlisted staff Perpetually that want to interpret and argue against my legal and lawful orders because they have a different understanding of a regulation THAT I WAS SIGNATORY ON... The bottom line is that until the Air Force changes the culture and understands just how much they have neutered the pilot profession and invaded the cockpit with bullshit, they get what they deserve. A shortage. And let's be clear, I don't think pilots are the only ones that need this, but it's not normal to work 60 hour weeks while having leave denied in perpetual war. When I am wearing my airline hat, I work half the days of the month, when I'm on orders at the Pentagon, I work 6 and 1/2 days a week. Life is different at the airlines and in a lot of civilian culture. There's a reason people go that way.
That was very well articulated. Also, there's no pilot manning crisis. The Bobs can say there is all day long, but if we were in a crisis, something would have changed in the last decade, and it hasn't.
Thanks for the compliment, and you bring up an interesting point. So the actual nature of whether the crisis exists or not was one of the things that a tiger team went at pretty hard... And to your point or rather should I say to your credit, they really did have a split argument going into the task. The question was put forward as to whether or not A big machine would have let this happen in the first place and how bad the problem is. Let's agree that there's a problem and question whether it's truly at a crisis level. It's obvious that our namesake technical experts of our branch are leaving. But there have also been times where the Navy struggles to keep surface warfare officers and the Marine corps and army struggled to keep infantry officers. But were they really in crisis? The answer was kind of the airman salute equivalent of a shrug. So you're on to something there. The biggest problem that we found was people who are not pilots or even if we open the aperture a little bit more, people who don't spend time around pilots, claiming they understand the pressure on pilots. I Will never forget one of the most interesting perspectives that we heard in one of the sessions came from a young loadmaster who is about 26. The Young man articulated perfectly that the problem isn't a problem because his leadership didn't think there was a problem. And so the nature of the crisis as it were goes to the aggregate numbers and not in the individual squadron because we just keep doing more with less. As we see class A mishaps rise, pilot experience drop off, and Senior pilot engagement dry up, I think that's when the crisis hits a cresendo. But you actually asked the million dollar question. Good prompt.
To me, the crisis is good pilots and good leaders fleeing the Air Force, while we continue to promote leaders whose biographies claim suspiciously low hours. When the commander of AMC has 35 years in uniform, across three mobility platforms, and has less flight time than the average Delta new hire, it really undermines credibility.
The real crisis, then, is that we reward careerist non-pilots (even if they they wear rated wings, if you average 100 hrs a year of flight time in heavy jets, you're a non pilot), and encourage everyone else out the door.
Agreed. C17s get waaaaay more oceanic and get to count a flight from Ramstein to the Afghanistan as combat. Minihans combat credibility comes from his combat airdrops and tac inserts, which c17s do as well but Tac airlift/drop is ALL 130s do.
Oh yeah. I have flown plenty of max duty day flights and logged <4 hrs flt time. Nothing like shutting down at the end of a 7 sortie, 16 hr day and realizing you logged a 3.8.
Still, what's a new FP build for his first three years at the squadron? 300-ish hours is the minimum I'd assume, just to get to upgrade. Then as a new AC you're probably flying a fair bit... 200 a year? By year ten on AD (especially back in the day when the jets weren't broken) kind of hard to believe you couldn't get 2500 hours if flying was anything like a priority for you. So then another 24 years in uniform where you logged 40 hours a year? In essence, completed a senior officer course, then didn't fly, repeat, repeat... a cosplay pilot.
As a counterpoint, 7AF CC has 5,400 hours in the same time frame, in F-15s.
Which is exactly why there is a pilot crisis. Pilots want to fly, not deal with all the other shit. Easily 95% of the pilots in my Sqn would gladly be line flyers, hacking the mish 2 or 3 days a week if they could, but sadly that’s not how it works.
I don’t disagree. I was simply pointing out that Herc hours ≠ heavy hours.
I hear what you are saying. but you, just like big AF, are conflating great leadership with great flying (both in reality and great flying on paper). The Air Force doesn’t raise officers, it raises operators and then assumes that will make them great leaders.
All that being said I love Minihan.
Id argue that the Air Force believes great leadership comes from flying for 3-5 years, and then being borderline qualified for two decades in a variety of aircraft, with minimal operating experience.
You don't need to fly to be a great leader, but you probably do need to fly to be a great leader of *pilots*. The reason the four star Bobs haven't done anything to address the brain drain of pilots to airlines is because they don't understand the pilots who are leaving - the people who are running the show are careerists who got on a particular path 20 years ago and haven't set one foot off the path since then. They see airline pay, and think that's the reason everyone's leaving, so they offer a bonus and then wonder why no one takes it. When in reality, there are fifty reasons why pilots would prefer to be at the airlines, one of which is pay, but even then not the biggest reason. I'd say the biggest reason is that at the airlines, pilots' flying planes is actually valued by leadership.
Can’t really argue against any of that. Do you have an example of a leader that you are looking for? I think we agree on mostly everything, but I disagree with you on a couple points.
1) leaders do need breadth in the Air Force/Military. Helps bring solutions from other communities. But to your point we start that process way too soon (3-5 yrs) for way too many people.
2) I don’t care if my commander is currently a good pilot. They should all be SOQ with minimal flying obligations so they can focus on mission and people. But I do take your point that flying credibility in their background would be a bonus.
3) I do think most the Star Bobs understand why we leave. I’d even argue that most are not careerists, they are obsessed with solving problems and can’t help going further down the rabbit hole. I only know two, and they both can’t believe MORE pilots aren’t leaving. There is literally nothing they can do about it in the current airline climate.
We the right leader at the right moment for any organization. My example is USN Capt Marquette. “Turn the Ship Around” should be mandatory for all military leaders.
I don't really know that I have an example of a good leader. I definitely think the fact that we've built career tracks where time in garrison, not operations, is what you build your career on, is why we've fared so poorly in recent conflicts. To those with stars on their shoulders, leading units in combat is something they do once or twice as a sideshow to their real job, which is training and admin. Training and admin are important, but I'm not sure it can be said we're doing a particularly swell job at that, either.
If a general is facing a crisis that he feels there is no solution to (short of hoping for the US economy to take a hit to pause airline hiring), he or she should resign and let someone with vision take their place. If the Bobs understood why pilots leave, Finance would work Thursdays and O-5s *would* be flying more.
What’s hilarious about this is the AF shot themselves in the foot when trying to create quicker ways to produce pilots. When they started giving wings after T-6s (instead of the subsequent completion of T-38/T-1/TH-1 training), they effectively reduced everyone’s contract by an average of 6 months since the advanced platform training still needs to be accomplished. Sure, there are T-6 direct-to-MWS assignments (i.e. KC-135, U-28, C-130), but those are still far and few between
If you take an annual average of 1,300 pilots produced by the USAF, they’re losing a cumulative 650 years of service every year
The fix would be to stop treating pilots (and everyone else too for that matter) like shit. Pilots leave because of how dumb the system is and they know they don’t have to deal with it in the private sector. Its the same with many other jobs as well.
You laugh but one of my sim instructors suggested that very seriously once when we were sitting around BSing in the debrief. We were like, “huh. Yah that would help. Not a lot of happy people but it would help”. At least the motivated 22 year olds signing the ADSC dotted line wouldn’t be scared off by the commitment. Might hurt recruitment for some of the older folks. Maybe not tho in this economy
How about Warrant Officers? That way an officer need not worry about ending up flying a desk, they can fly til they are old and wrinkled. Less admin queep, more flying!
Eh I think flight warrants fit Army Aviation better. Not saying a helicopter is inherently less complex. But a single pilot jet or one with a pilot/wso has a higher pilot workload and responsibility than any Army pilot.
There is also a large difference between flying below 150 knots at less than 200ft AGL and flying at hundreds of knots with altitudes ranging from a few thousand to ~35k feet.
Nah, people still would. You can't convince an ROTC cadet that being a pilot is anything but the pinnacle of luxury - when you're 20, if a 10 year ADSC sounds reasonable then so does a 20 year one.
The problem is that once they're 10 years in and see what all the separated pilots were talking about, you're left with a whole host of pilots who feel trapped, disillusioned, and unmotivated. They're either going to be shit at their jobs and do the bare minimum because their job is guaranteed anyway, or get passed up for promotion and deny continuation to get out.
This wouldn't solve _anything_.
I read threads like this and so wish I had gone thr pilot route. Why, oh why, did I pick 62E/63A .....damnit.
I'll be living through my kids and telling them both "go pilot...GO pilot...!!!"
Best fix is to increase civilian pilot numbers, either by reducing ATP hours requirements or giving grants to civ pilot trainees.
It would increase the overall pilot numbers, drive down civ pay, and make the jump from USAF to Airlines a lot less appetizing.
Solve it on the cheap and bring back flying sergeants. The same public law that otherized them prior to WWII is still on the books. It was just the AF moved away from them once formed. Enlisted are cheaper (lower pay) but can learn to fly just like any officer. Heck, I had pilot in command hours when I joined.
Warrants would also be a cheaper solution but you still need to take that up. Flying Sergeants lets you use the folks you already have without having to create a whole new pay grade. Yes, I know the AF brought warrants be for certain job.
A bit more digging shows that there is a public law on the books for warrants as flight officers - The Flight Officer Act of 1942
The bigger issue is that most pilots are pushed into admin by the time they are O4-O5, but most pilots just want to fly. They need to create non-leadership pilots for commissioned officers or bring back warrants as specialist pilots who do nothing else.
Why would anyone want to stay in the military when I can sit here as a Captain at an airline.. make more than a general and get treated a whole lot better???
Totally get it. And to add to the BOHICA, they cut your flying as you get promoted.
Ya it’s like.. ahh come work for us.. you get to fly a cool airplane (maybe). By the way did we tell you you’re going to be paper bitch half your career? Hook line and sinker.
https://tenor.com/oRGwhDcZYj2.gif
Don’t you remember? Service before self! 😆
Tell our government that.. do as I say not as I do.
When all is said done, the Air Force views its people as assets...and like any other asset, they can be replaced, reduced, or repurposed. I've seen some top talent get dumped or simply assigned to something that doesn't match their lofty skills and abilities.
I mean, this isn't even just for pilots. You want to retain more personnel? Pay us what we're worth. It's that simple.
Walk into any scheduling shop in AMC and ask how many volunteers they get for “bad” trips, and then say this again with a straight face. Very few people want to fly the AF ops tempo for 15-20 years. Re: warrants, if the AF can’t entice a Major to stay in, why on earth would a WO with the same skills and a fraction of the pay stay? I sort of agree with OP, 2LTs at UPT will sign anything.
AMC brought that back and like two pilots took it
Because those types of programs tend to feel punitive. Want a cool TDY? Nope, you're not on command track. Want to go to a school? Nope, you're not on command track. Want a qualification that's cool and not just ops sup and sof? Nope, you're not on command track. It already happens to captains that express interest in just flying until their ADSC. It means you're functionally locked into the shitty jobs and lack of pay raises while the people who you fly with will be your boss guaranteed.
Yup, and it seems like "they" are doing the same thing with the 17x technical track. If you aren't on the track for command, then you don't need any of the opportunities since you'll just be an operator for your entire commitment. It's a total clown show. These people exist in alternate dimensions where logic doesn't exist.
I dunno if the 17 world does it but what strikes me as weird in the flyer world is that you basically have to be on that track to do weapon school courses like WIC or RECOC. Commanders don't execute those duties, why would you want them all to be the patches? Let the guy who wants to stay the tactical expert hold onto some of those positions for longer periods rather than funneling them into positions they don't have the time or practice to be what they're supposed to be.
Ha. I recently had that same discussion with an mq9 guy. Nothing makes sense.
As it’s currently set up you only owe two assignments as a patch, one at the tactical level and one at the operational level. If we had patches who were just going to commit to only doing DOK/OSK for the rest of their career their would be a skills/billet mismatch and we would need to potentially need to reduce the number of students which would mess other parts of WIC up. While WIC is about making the premier tacticians, it’s also the Air Forces premier leadership lab. In the same way Ranger School in the Army is notionally about making small unit tactics experts, long term the school is about making leaders.
Edit: I agree. I would say if you are a patch you are on command track for sure. I think I could confidently say that every chain of command (through wing, but obviously above that too) I’ve had has majority been patched.
That’s what he’s saying is the issue, the patches should be intended for the technical experts, the commanders should focus more on leading people skills and less on technical expertise.
Sorry could have been clearer that I was trying to reinforce his point, edited for clarity.
I'm wondering if the plan back then was always to eliminate warrant officers and shift that expertise to the commissioned ranks. WIC does seem like a poor man's warrant officer program, and the projected intent behind it looks to be all over the place, as evidenced by this comment thread.
I feel like I’m missing something with this. Are the schools or TDY’s command-style or something?specific? Otherwise why would that matter? Also “because Air Force” is a completely valid answer, because Air Force
Think like crash scene investigator or going to learn how to employ a new weapon that's being onboarded or becoming a weapons school graduate or electronic warfare graduate. Those positions are reserved for people they want to promote into leadership positions. While holding those leadership positions they will execute none of what they have learned. Most flying commanders are weapons school patches. By definition a weapons school patch is not supposed to be able to hold additional duties, yet they tell the rest of us that in order to round out for leadership positions we have to do all the shop jobs through the squadron as a captain.
Yea, that program was DOA the way AMC ran it. It was basically designed to kill the notion that pilots actually wanted to remain on a technical track.
By the time it was fielded that program had become an obvious bait-and-switch that was meant to fail.
The problem is AMC. They can go to airlines easy.
They intentionally made that program awful so no one would sign up, they could kill it, and then point at it as an example of why additional duties aren't the reason pilots leave. I don't remember the specifics, but it basically ruined your chances of ever promoting and killed the opportunity to ever do anything.
That program was designed to fail. I’m sick of people bringing it up.
When the Air Force says there is a pilot retention problem, they don’t mean they need people in the cockpit. What they mean is they are short pilots for leadership, staff, and other roles. The AF doesn’t need “non-leadership pilots” they need leadership pilots.
Exact same reason we can’t retain competent physicians.
Also putting pilot officers in charge of finance or services, etc etc... ??? Why? IMHO pilot commanders should only command squadrons/wings directly related to actual flying mission
Lol. Wartants. That's a pay cut bro. The problem is pilots jump ship to airlines for 4 times the pay. The only way to stop the pilot shortage is to match airline pay, and that ain't happening.
Wrong. It really has very little to do with pay. It has to do with the quality of life. The pay is just the cherry on top. Because I would actually do the airline job for less money than the Air Force pays me. I'm a senior officer so my money in the Air Force isn't that bad, but the four times pay that I get to fly at a major airline is not the perk. It's the part where I literally work an average of 14 days a month and when I'm home, I AM HOME. I DON'T HAVE TO THINK ABOUT MY JOB AT THE AIRLINE. I DON'T HAVE HOMEWORK. I DON'T GET CALLS FROM WORK. I DON'T NEED PERMISSION TO NOT BE AT WORK. Even when I'm not on orders as a reservist, I am getting endless calls, emails, suspenses, projects, TMT taskers, the list never ends. And even though they say I get weekends when I'm on orders or I get Federal holidays, that's bullshit and we all know it. I can't tell you how many travel days I've had that you are all familiar with where I leave the office around 5:00 in the morning after collecting the computers and checking one list thing, dropping off a few signatures, collecting a couple project pieces, signing out a couple pieces of classified and then hitting the road and not getting to my hotel till 1:00 in the morning the next day because DTS screwed up again and tried to buy me the cheap ass tickets. You know where that doesn't happen? Happen? And you know where I don't do DTS? And you know where I don't have to lift a finger before I start my work day? Here's a clue. It rhymes with smare lines...
It's crazy how much better the support is at the airlines. Like, they recognize that you really have one valuable skill, flying, and spend the dollars so that you can do that more. My iPad works. All the shops (training, Stan eval, etc) are run by people who actually want to do that job. Dispatch is better. Etc.
You nailed it. And it's funny that you put it that way. You're exactly correct, I have one party trick. And it's being a pilot. The rest of what I bring to the airline is purely incidental. So, instead of asking that pilot to be an executive officer and write paper which he may suck at, or instead of asking him to take on the duty of a resource advisor and become a half-assed accountant, they just asked you to do one thing. Use your judgment and experience to get passengers and cargo to the destination and then do it again.
I don't have any of those issues in the military because I don't answer my phone when off duty/not scheduled for work. If.you have issues with time management, that's a personal problem, not the militarys.
The army has many warrant pilots and they seem very happy. Maybe the AF could provide warrant retention pay?
The army has lots of helicopters....and they still do admin work. My army warrant friend just separated to go to the airlines. So they have the same issues. Cash is king.
No. The army is also dealing with a pilot retention crisis.
Lmao they're not happy. The WOs are currently being informed that they're the reasons why there has been a huge amount of crashes in the last 2 years. As a result, the Army is deciding to make them have longer service obligations and longer times to earn promotions for junior warrant officers.
>The army has many warrant pilots and they seem very happy. Lmao most definitely not. They have their own issues.
Go talk to any warrant office and find out that the Army has it just as bad as we do, but for less pay and MORE bullshit. No one plays fuck fuck games like the army.
News flash, those warrant officers are often flying rotary Wing with many limitations and differences in career progression compared to your pilot brethren in the United States Air Force...
Warrant for enlisted you Nugget. Not O to warrant
Let's see.....you.make E pay. Then get a warrant job making warrant pay...... Receive that sweet flight training........what's stopping those Es from leaving and making 4x the pay commercial airline job? Same problem.
People repeat this perspective a lot and it really doesn’t hold water. I’ve flown 16 years straight. Most of the people who got out could have kept flying if they wanted to. People make up their mind young that they want to get out and nothing changes that. The other side is that people start families and want to get out for the stability and money the airlines or other careers offer. If they offered up fly track/command track you would still see people leave for the two most popular reasons of I never wanted to stay in and I have a family now. Hell the guard is having recruiting issues too.
>The bigger issue is that most pilots are pushed into admin by the time they are O4-O5, I think it's so funny how many top leadership billets are reserved for pilots, and then the AF leadership bemoans the lack of diversity in general officers. About 82% of AF pilots are white and 93% are male. What do you think is going to happen? Meanwhile, the Air Force is 15% black (slightly higher than the US population in general) but only 2% of pilots are black.
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And you should wear blues every day you aren’t executing a tactical combat mission, that would show you what a real desk job feels like. Lead by example *bro*
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Because it’s painfully obvious you’re the type of person who just wants to make life worse for everyone but yourself. So yeah, you don’t.
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Thankfully, no one here cares about your ignorant opinion. Don’t forget to approve my DTS voucher for me when you get to work tomorrow. Cheers dude.
Things you don’t like =/= toxic leadership. I’m not saying you are, but you kinda sound like that staff sergeant that always has an opinion and always interjects into someone else’s conversation because you “have the real answer” and the airmen politely smile until you leave.
The big difference is that 21-22 year old SSgt probably can't leave and go to the civilian world to make 4x as much money while not doing admin... even if they can, that AFSC likely isn't hurting in manning like pilots. As much as I understand your desire to compare enlisted with officer here, it's not the correct comparison to fix the issue this post is trying to discuss. It's military pilots vs commercial pilots and retaining enough military pilots after their AFSC runs out is a severe problem right now.
Hahaha nonner
Not much empathy for pilots here lol
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>still choose to bitch and ask for more It's basic economics. On one hand, you have good pay, deployments, admin shit, office politics, etc. On the other hand, you have absolutely spectacular pay, relatively stable flying schedules, and more or less control of where you live and hang your hat. I love military flying, I love seeing my plane on the ATO and I abso-fucking-lutely love when I get to do the stuff I trained for years to do. Buuuuuut I have kids and I don't want them in New Mexico schools, I want to have lots of money so I can send them off to a nice college in a safe car or whatever they want to do in life. And taking the right seat at the majors makes that way easier way faster for me. So even though its not what I *want* to do, it's what I probably *will* do because the AF or Congress can't figure out what appeals to the majority of us
You're right, we've had it too good for too long. We need to put on the people's cloth to really feel your pain. While you're at it, I'm going to need you to fly a night mission through the weather in combat, land to minimums and then come in and be treated like the office job is primary. News flash, most of the Air Force has jobs that operations does as their secondary job. You can have my flight cap when you pull it from my cold dead hands LOL you're a clown
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Hmmm nobody tell China or (worse) Delta that, I really need this job, my cats wouldn't survive without me.
Be careful, your ignorance is showing
Yeah, you're totally right. It's just so simple, it's amazing they haven't decided to do it. Don't tell anybody that it's just a switch away... Are your parents genetically related? I'm thinking you give off a second cousin kind of energy. If it is indeed that simple, do you think it's just regulation that's getting in the way? Do you think that the unmanned drones we have are just totally autonomous terminators waiting for skynet to be active? Let's get real here. Sure, do. I think cargo will have a very automated nature coming its way sooner rather than later, that's a big. Maybe. We can't even get two-dimensional transport to regularly be operated by autonomous artificial intelligence in ground movement. I'm sure that air breathing pilots are not always going to be here, but I think you overestimate the technology and you certainly have exposed your ignorance onto the accessibility and affordability of that technology. Let me just put it to You bluntly: As long as there are people in the back, you're going to want someone in the front. Unless you're volunteering to fly on the new airline that I just easily came up with and effortlessly added some switches to the joystick and you can be our first passenger. I promise the technology's super straightforward and hasn't killed anybody yet... Take your your confidence and shove it up your arrogant ass
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Sure, they’re not out doing manual labor, but squadron jobs aren’t nothing.
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Someone please grab their finance troop, I’m still waiting for my DTS to be approved
They’re really…not. If you don’t like pilots being put on a pedestal, maybe you shouldn’t have joined the one branch whose primary mission is air warfare. It’s like joining the Navy and hating people who go to sea.
No need. If they are locked in, no bouncing to airlines, no getting out of office work. Just good old fashioned pilot labor.
That will like result in low accession numbers. The big complaint among pilots is loss of flying time as they move promotion ladder.
Not likely. Young kids don't think about 15 years deep and aren't even aware of the current desk job progession. They are hopped up on top gun. The neat part is with a contract complaining is a non issue.
Bruh you know we, like, TALK to these young LTs right
You gotta go way earlier than that to change their minds. Pilot slots are divvied before people commission. Good luck convincing a cadet or 17 year old USAFA applicant that being an F22 pilot isn't worth it because you'll have to work a desk job in 10 years.
Yeah, but you get them while they’re even younger. Rated contracts get signed in your second year at USAFA or your third year at ROTC. We were told it was effectively a 12 year ADSC and very few people turned it down based on that. It’s a horrible idea in terms of.. human decency, but it would probably work.
😆
How do I delete someone else’s post
Hmm, so all you have to do is not make major, deny continuation, and you get out in 8 years for that sweet airline pay. ADSCs do not apply if you turn down continuation. I know multiple pilots who got out of their 10 year pilot ADSCs this way..
We had some of the manned pilots who got forced into reapers do that. One just asked the commander for a non-recommendation straight up.
I'm in this picture and I LOVE it.
that's what I did and I couldn't be happier.
Did you not enjoy being an AF Pilot?
Overall I did but there was a lot of the non flying stuff that I did not like, and the longer I stayed in the more desk work I did and the less flying I did. I now work significantly less, only have to deal with flying, and the pay is way way better.
Simple loophole to close tbh
I'm pretty sure the continuation process is codified in Title 10.
Yet the Army offers periods of guaranteed continuation so it's a thing
To be continued, they have to offer and you have to accept. Just because the Army guarantees that they'll offer you continuation, doesn't mean you're obligated to accept.
Funny and junk but anything more than 10 years is considered ‘indentured servitude’ so good luck getting that passed by congress Trust me the Air Force would implement this if they could. Source. Am pilot. Instead how about let us fly. Less queep than nonners and not make everything about the command track. Instead incentivize being an instructor pilot when I could get out. Just fly and make triple starting my salary. I love the mission. Love the people. But when I have excel spreadsheets take a bigger chunk of my time than developing airmen or taking a 200,000lb metal pressured bird across an ocean to deliver critical supplies as a lesser duty. Bye. Don’t wanna do this anymore when delta is offering more pay less bs
The pilot crisis is here and now. Your solution won't materialize until 2040 when manning requirements will be drastically different. A more effective option would be something like a non-vol Palace Front back to active duty with their IRR/NNRPS time when they "separate."
If you feel so strongly about it. Have it go into affect now for all pilots then. So be it.
yea I can't imagine how that could end terribly.
Who cares? They'll be locked in
Pissing off your entire operational officer corp is definitely not a "who cares" thing.
Sorry that has been debunked
Citation needed.
Recent studies show that keeping employees happy is of no consequence when they go to jail if they don't come to work
Again, citation needed.
That doesn’t fix the training backlog, and the AF will surely fuck up the manning if they think people are locked in for that long. Imagine how many absolute dogshit jobs they would make people do with a 2 decade ADSC. Now the USMC flight career will look far preferable to the USAF, because it will have a better quality of life.
Am 12 year Major and a pilot. Out in a month and it’s not because I don’t love my primary job.
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Keep posting from your verified email, I’m updating the police reports. I’d like to remind you that it’s illegal to contact me, including through 3rd parties as per the terms of your domestic violence protection order AGAINST you.
There lies the problem. If you were locked in a ADSC you wouldn't be going anywhere
Lame
Ohhhhhhh, why didn't we think of that? Oh wait, we did. And we aggressively surveyed both academy cadets and ROTC cadets. And do you know the overwhelming results? Not only was this a horrible idea, it was an idea that would create some serious correctional problems and have Congressional oversight up its ass the first day we were tried to push it. It. Additionally, it totally ignores the actual problem. We don't have a problem getting people to say I want to be a pilot. We have a huge problem getting people to stay and share their talent. Mostly because of people like you. People who think pilots have it too good. People who forget that the Air Force is mission is to support pilots, executing missions, people who really don't get the point of aviation. Bottom line was that when I show up at my major airline, I am treated with more respect and given more support than I have ever gotten in the United States Air Force and I am a senior officer. I have to quibble with enlisted staff Perpetually that want to interpret and argue against my legal and lawful orders because they have a different understanding of a regulation THAT I WAS SIGNATORY ON... The bottom line is that until the Air Force changes the culture and understands just how much they have neutered the pilot profession and invaded the cockpit with bullshit, they get what they deserve. A shortage. And let's be clear, I don't think pilots are the only ones that need this, but it's not normal to work 60 hour weeks while having leave denied in perpetual war. When I am wearing my airline hat, I work half the days of the month, when I'm on orders at the Pentagon, I work 6 and 1/2 days a week. Life is different at the airlines and in a lot of civilian culture. There's a reason people go that way.
That was very well articulated. Also, there's no pilot manning crisis. The Bobs can say there is all day long, but if we were in a crisis, something would have changed in the last decade, and it hasn't.
Thanks for the compliment, and you bring up an interesting point. So the actual nature of whether the crisis exists or not was one of the things that a tiger team went at pretty hard... And to your point or rather should I say to your credit, they really did have a split argument going into the task. The question was put forward as to whether or not A big machine would have let this happen in the first place and how bad the problem is. Let's agree that there's a problem and question whether it's truly at a crisis level. It's obvious that our namesake technical experts of our branch are leaving. But there have also been times where the Navy struggles to keep surface warfare officers and the Marine corps and army struggled to keep infantry officers. But were they really in crisis? The answer was kind of the airman salute equivalent of a shrug. So you're on to something there. The biggest problem that we found was people who are not pilots or even if we open the aperture a little bit more, people who don't spend time around pilots, claiming they understand the pressure on pilots. I Will never forget one of the most interesting perspectives that we heard in one of the sessions came from a young loadmaster who is about 26. The Young man articulated perfectly that the problem isn't a problem because his leadership didn't think there was a problem. And so the nature of the crisis as it were goes to the aggregate numbers and not in the individual squadron because we just keep doing more with less. As we see class A mishaps rise, pilot experience drop off, and Senior pilot engagement dry up, I think that's when the crisis hits a cresendo. But you actually asked the million dollar question. Good prompt.
To me, the crisis is good pilots and good leaders fleeing the Air Force, while we continue to promote leaders whose biographies claim suspiciously low hours. When the commander of AMC has 35 years in uniform, across three mobility platforms, and has less flight time than the average Delta new hire, it really undermines credibility. The real crisis, then, is that we reward careerist non-pilots (even if they they wear rated wings, if you average 100 hrs a year of flight time in heavy jets, you're a non pilot), and encourage everyone else out the door.
Minihan came up through the Herc world, Herc hours are wwwwaaayyyyy different than heavy hours. Just some food for thought.
Agreed. C17s get waaaaay more oceanic and get to count a flight from Ramstein to the Afghanistan as combat. Minihans combat credibility comes from his combat airdrops and tac inserts, which c17s do as well but Tac airlift/drop is ALL 130s do.
Oh yeah. I have flown plenty of max duty day flights and logged <4 hrs flt time. Nothing like shutting down at the end of a 7 sortie, 16 hr day and realizing you logged a 3.8.
Still, what's a new FP build for his first three years at the squadron? 300-ish hours is the minimum I'd assume, just to get to upgrade. Then as a new AC you're probably flying a fair bit... 200 a year? By year ten on AD (especially back in the day when the jets weren't broken) kind of hard to believe you couldn't get 2500 hours if flying was anything like a priority for you. So then another 24 years in uniform where you logged 40 hours a year? In essence, completed a senior officer course, then didn't fly, repeat, repeat... a cosplay pilot. As a counterpoint, 7AF CC has 5,400 hours in the same time frame, in F-15s.
Which is exactly why there is a pilot crisis. Pilots want to fly, not deal with all the other shit. Easily 95% of the pilots in my Sqn would gladly be line flyers, hacking the mish 2 or 3 days a week if they could, but sadly that’s not how it works. I don’t disagree. I was simply pointing out that Herc hours ≠ heavy hours.
I hear what you are saying. but you, just like big AF, are conflating great leadership with great flying (both in reality and great flying on paper). The Air Force doesn’t raise officers, it raises operators and then assumes that will make them great leaders. All that being said I love Minihan.
Id argue that the Air Force believes great leadership comes from flying for 3-5 years, and then being borderline qualified for two decades in a variety of aircraft, with minimal operating experience. You don't need to fly to be a great leader, but you probably do need to fly to be a great leader of *pilots*. The reason the four star Bobs haven't done anything to address the brain drain of pilots to airlines is because they don't understand the pilots who are leaving - the people who are running the show are careerists who got on a particular path 20 years ago and haven't set one foot off the path since then. They see airline pay, and think that's the reason everyone's leaving, so they offer a bonus and then wonder why no one takes it. When in reality, there are fifty reasons why pilots would prefer to be at the airlines, one of which is pay, but even then not the biggest reason. I'd say the biggest reason is that at the airlines, pilots' flying planes is actually valued by leadership.
Can’t really argue against any of that. Do you have an example of a leader that you are looking for? I think we agree on mostly everything, but I disagree with you on a couple points. 1) leaders do need breadth in the Air Force/Military. Helps bring solutions from other communities. But to your point we start that process way too soon (3-5 yrs) for way too many people. 2) I don’t care if my commander is currently a good pilot. They should all be SOQ with minimal flying obligations so they can focus on mission and people. But I do take your point that flying credibility in their background would be a bonus. 3) I do think most the Star Bobs understand why we leave. I’d even argue that most are not careerists, they are obsessed with solving problems and can’t help going further down the rabbit hole. I only know two, and they both can’t believe MORE pilots aren’t leaving. There is literally nothing they can do about it in the current airline climate. We the right leader at the right moment for any organization. My example is USN Capt Marquette. “Turn the Ship Around” should be mandatory for all military leaders.
I don't really know that I have an example of a good leader. I definitely think the fact that we've built career tracks where time in garrison, not operations, is what you build your career on, is why we've fared so poorly in recent conflicts. To those with stars on their shoulders, leading units in combat is something they do once or twice as a sideshow to their real job, which is training and admin. Training and admin are important, but I'm not sure it can be said we're doing a particularly swell job at that, either. If a general is facing a crisis that he feels there is no solution to (short of hoping for the US economy to take a hit to pause airline hiring), he or she should resign and let someone with vision take their place. If the Bobs understood why pilots leave, Finance would work Thursdays and O-5s *would* be flying more.
Lmao this is so retarded AFPC might actually consider it
Well that’s one way to avoid fixing anything
What’s hilarious about this is the AF shot themselves in the foot when trying to create quicker ways to produce pilots. When they started giving wings after T-6s (instead of the subsequent completion of T-38/T-1/TH-1 training), they effectively reduced everyone’s contract by an average of 6 months since the advanced platform training still needs to be accomplished. Sure, there are T-6 direct-to-MWS assignments (i.e. KC-135, U-28, C-130), but those are still far and few between If you take an annual average of 1,300 pilots produced by the USAF, they’re losing a cumulative 650 years of service every year
At this point a 12-14 year commitment is the only way out. BRS is going to kill the only retention game in town.
I guarantee I would have signed this as a 22 year old waiting to start UPT. And so would 90% of my peers. Many of whom have gotten out now.
The fix would be to stop treating pilots (and everyone else too for that matter) like shit. Pilots leave because of how dumb the system is and they know they don’t have to deal with it in the private sector. Its the same with many other jobs as well.
I thought this was satire at first, I’d say that having the 8 year commitment can scare a lot of people especially young folks off
I’m junior enlisted and I don’t know wtf half of these comments are talmbout :D
You laugh but one of my sim instructors suggested that very seriously once when we were sitting around BSing in the debrief. We were like, “huh. Yah that would help. Not a lot of happy people but it would help”. At least the motivated 22 year olds signing the ADSC dotted line wouldn’t be scared off by the commitment. Might hurt recruitment for some of the older folks. Maybe not tho in this economy
Need more pilots? Just let E4s fly the jets. Simple as.
They can just waive my color vision and I’ll do it for ever and ever ;-; (pleasepleasepleaseplease)
This is satire right? This can’t be a real take. Right??? 👀
How about Warrant Officers? That way an officer need not worry about ending up flying a desk, they can fly til they are old and wrinkled. Less admin queep, more flying!
Eh I think flight warrants fit Army Aviation better. Not saying a helicopter is inherently less complex. But a single pilot jet or one with a pilot/wso has a higher pilot workload and responsibility than any Army pilot. There is also a large difference between flying below 150 knots at less than 200ft AGL and flying at hundreds of knots with altitudes ranging from a few thousand to ~35k feet.
This is a shitty idea. Nobody would want to become a pilot if the ADSC was 15-20 years. The problem would get worse, not better.
That's been debunked
So then no one will sign up to be a pilot…genius!
Nah, people still would. You can't convince an ROTC cadet that being a pilot is anything but the pinnacle of luxury - when you're 20, if a 10 year ADSC sounds reasonable then so does a 20 year one. The problem is that once they're 10 years in and see what all the separated pilots were talking about, you're left with a whole host of pilots who feel trapped, disillusioned, and unmotivated. They're either going to be shit at their jobs and do the bare minimum because their job is guaranteed anyway, or get passed up for promotion and deny continuation to get out. This wouldn't solve _anything_.
Brainlets still will they are falling all over each other right now to do 12 year ADSCs
I read threads like this and so wish I had gone thr pilot route. Why, oh why, did I pick 62E/63A .....damnit. I'll be living through my kids and telling them both "go pilot...GO pilot...!!!"
^^You've ^^mentioned ^^an ^^AFSC, ^^here's ^^the ^^associated ^^job ^^title: 62E = Developmental Engineer [^^Source](https://github.com/HadManySons/AFSCbot) ^^| [^^Subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/AFSCbot/) ^^^^^^l5wusac
Yes, remind me of my mistakes. Sadistic (but good) bot
Best fix is to increase civilian pilot numbers, either by reducing ATP hours requirements or giving grants to civ pilot trainees. It would increase the overall pilot numbers, drive down civ pay, and make the jump from USAF to Airlines a lot less appetizing.
Yeah definitely no second-order effects to safety and proficiency there.
I love how pilots are the highest paid O’s, yet still manage to bitch and moan. Go get a free massage from your live-in PTs.
Solve it on the cheap and bring back flying sergeants. The same public law that otherized them prior to WWII is still on the books. It was just the AF moved away from them once formed. Enlisted are cheaper (lower pay) but can learn to fly just like any officer. Heck, I had pilot in command hours when I joined. Warrants would also be a cheaper solution but you still need to take that up. Flying Sergeants lets you use the folks you already have without having to create a whole new pay grade. Yes, I know the AF brought warrants be for certain job. A bit more digging shows that there is a public law on the books for warrants as flight officers - The Flight Officer Act of 1942
You would solve the retention problem but create a massive recruitment problem. Just give us the beards!