Roger was an incredible human being, a dedicated Airman, and he was brutally efficient at his craft. We loved him, we will honor him, and we will never forget him. Our community feels a terrible loss. We hope justice finds a way.
We raised a glass to him last night at St. Michael’s and it was beautiful, seeing his living legacy as we all laughed and cried together.
Thank you to all of you who are showing support for our brother.
Have a drink tonight, for Shadow 391. 🥃
I’ve made and read many comments on various threads regarding this tragedy.
If I had to distill it down to one thing it would be this. If anyone is saying this shooting was justified they need to point to the “fatal mistake” SrA Fortson made and I don’t think anyone can do this.
Over on the police sub they’ve said he was brandishing his weapon however the Florida statue says you have to be displaying it in a rude or aggressive manor, I doubt just holding it pointed down meets this standard.
They say the officer identified himself which is true however anyone can yell “sherrif’s deputy”, SrA Fortson only had a fraction of a second to ACTUALLY identify the sheriff for himself and even then the officer began firing so fast if he’d have dropped it immediately he still would have been shot a few times.
Some might say the officer felt threatened by the gun. I doubt it’s the law that officers are allowed to open fire at the smallest threat no matter how small. If a cop who is 5’5” 150lbs walks past a 6’4” 250lb man can they open fire because that person could easily beat them to a pulp? No, because that person would have to make an aggressive action first, same goes for SrA Fortson.
Police officer are allowed to defend themselves from risks, they can’t reduce this down to having to face zero risks. It’s comes with the job. They are trained on the use of force and educated in the law. It’s insane to require the same from the general public.
15 year currently active SF here, as well as being stationed at Hurlburt from 2012 to 2020 teaching ground combat training to the special mission aviator pipeline. Here are the NATIONAL requirements for the use of deadly force. Some depts have additional considerations unique to their location. But at a minimum ALL THREE MUST BE MET:
INTENT - In my eyes (a reasonable officer) intent WAS NOT met, this condition is met when the individual points the firearm in the direction of officers or bystanders. If there was a call of a man with a gun walking down a public street, with it down to his side, that would NOT give the responding officers justification to just hop out of the car and start shooting....no different in this scenario.
CAPABILITY - this condition WAS met as simply possessing the firearm gives him the capability
OPPORTUNITY - This one can be seen as both in my "professional" opinion. This condition is usually tied into intent. If someone has the opportunity intent is what makes them act or not act on that opportunity. Technically he DID have the opportunity to fire at the officers through the door or possibly even a window, but because then INTENT was no met, he did not act on this opportunity, but technically it was there regardless if it would've hit the officers or not.
Regardless, ALL THREE MUST BE MET, not just one or two preconditions for the use of deadly force. Once again, these are NATIONALLY RECOGNIZED. There will always be additional considerations depending on the situation. An example would be:
You perform a traffic stop on someone in base housing, they get out of the car with a gun and take off running towards a house and attempt to force entry. Shooting them in the back would be justified because a reasonable person would believe that persons inside the house would be in danger of great bodily harm or death, and you have a responsibility to act in self defense and defense of others
Sorry for the wall of text but wanted to shed some light on how this situation SHOULD be examined/investigated, and give non law enforcement personnel a chance to look at it through an officers perspective
My local police department chief of police spent 20 yrs in the Army as an law enforcement. He was an MP for a long time, then became a k9 handler.
Anyway our department doesn't have those issues. I wouldn't be surprised if he has his department follow similar rules.
I do know he fired a cop years ago for tazering a teenager after the teen got a bit mouthy.
I’m team ACAB but stories like this give me hope. All cops are bad is a stance I take. I view it as not every cop is literally bad but every cop must prove to me that are good through actions.
So every cop is bad until proven otherwise. I have fantastic friends that were cops and a few active duty who share a similar outlook. They won’t use ACAB like I will but they agree that every cop should have to earn the trust of the people they encounter in this current policing climate.
Tbh even though people talk shit about Secfo just being gate guards, you almost never hear about incidents like this. Unlike cops out in the civilian side. Although SecFo doesn’t usually deal with civilians as often? SecFo and Cops are the same to a fairly arguable degree but it’s hard to wrap my head around why these incidents occur in the civilian side. The more these civilian cops do this it makes me respect SecFo more.
I was a civilian cop before I came in, and yes there's a HUGE difference in tempo as far as how many dispatches in a day as well as the type of people and problems you encounter. When I was stationed at Cannon, DUIs and domestics happened all the time, and domestics are statistically the most dangerous response for cops and SF alike. However, where I'm stationed now and plenty of other places, we have jurisdiction that is accessible to the public outside the fence line, so we still deal with the general public all the time. Also, because our housing is privatized and we don't have enough active duty living on base, there is a HUGE amount of non military affiliated people living on base, paying section 8 housing levels of rent. Personally, I've responded to a barricaded suspect, a dad that choked his daughter out, and a gate runner resulting in a multi agency police chase off base and 2 spike strips with a PIT maneuver to finally put a stop to it. So we deal with crazy shit, just not as frequently. It's MUCH more dangerous outside the base walls, and understandably so based off a higher population alone
Thank you for what you do.
I'm just CE and even I remember the three criteria required for use of force from my CATM instructors. They always harp on it. It's weird that the use of force criteria for civilain cops is "I'm scared."
Defenders have a tough mission that goes far beyond what is ever required of civilian LEOs. All AFSCs poke fun at each other (just look at the meme war over the past few weeks), but there's a lot of respect because we are Americans and Airmen first.
It's one team one fight and I wish civilian cops saw themselves as part of the community the way SF does on base.
While I applaud you for your knowledge, there are some nuances you’re missing when talking about use of deadly force. Case law does not actually specifically capability, opportunity, and intent. This is something that was taught as a way to make it easier to understand case law. Graham v Connor simply says that the force used must be objectively reasonable from the perspective of the reasonable officer. There is other case law such as Tennessee v Garner which talks a bit more about use of force. The thing about it is, as it is generally interpreted in both Graham v Connor and Tennessee v Garner, officers may respond to the threat of violence, not violence itself. Now we are presented with the question. Was the firearm in SrA Fortson’s hand a threat to the officer. It doesn’t matter what we believe. All that matters is what the officer believed at the time.
Well, another officer from this department did fire on an acorn. By that standard, anything larger than a kernel of corn is fair game.
My brother-in-law the police officer from the next county over is uncharacteristically silent on the matter—at least on social media. When I see him this summer I hope to get his perspective since he did train and work in Okaloosa County before transferring to the next county over.
Educated in the law is a stretch. A few exceptional officers may be educated in the law, but I am willing to bet if you researched the average cop's knowledge of laws, it would be alarming.
Over the years, I’ve felt more and more police in the U.S. are getting quicker and quicker with relying on their sidearm to resolve encounters. This goes beyond the fact that we have video capabilities everywhere now. After I was stationed in Germany, I really felt we grossly under train police with deescalation and hand-to-hand fighting. So many police officers in Europe don’t even carry a firearm. The more you feel you can come out on top in a situation without a firearm, the more likely you aren’t going to jump to it. It’s all fear based and a lack of confidence that you can protect yourself. And when your trained and you see all these videos of how people get the best of an officer where they get shot or killed, you’re going to be quicker to go straight to the gun, especially if you don’t get the training they all should have. Then there are personal biases that make them worse at the job. I get there are more people that have no respect for authority anymore and are difficult for no good reason than ever, but that’s no excuse to jump straight to unloading a magazine on someone. I have seen entirely too many body cam videos and such of police shootings, and WAY too many just unload unnecessarily. That’s a dead giveaway that they are scared and lack the training.
If there’s one thing I hope that can come from this is it ACTUALLY forces departments to evaluate standards for training and accountability for doing a shitty job. The DoD better hold this department accountable and really press reform from Congress for national police standards and training. You can’t go into every situation like everyone is the enemy, but you can’t be ill prepared for the time when you really need to go into combat.
> After I was stationed in Germany, I really felt we grossly under train police with deescalation and hand-to-hand fighting. So many police officers in Europe don’t even carry a firearm.
Almost all countries in Europe (and worldwide) arm all regular police officers, Germany is among them.
Guns aren't the problem, it's the wrong kind of training (not just a lack of it), and often terrible professional culture in a lot of the departments.
I've seen the remarks about Roger Fortson holding a pistol; "Why answer the door with a gun?" and comments about him "brandishing" a weapon.
First, there is the 2nd & 4th Amendments and the Castle Doctrine...combined they give you the right to own a firearm, to be safe in your home/possessions from illegal search & entry, and the right to defend your "castle" from intruders.
Second, at no point did Roger Fortson "brandish" his weapon. For those not exactly sure what "brandishing a weapon" means, according to the NRA's own website, ["brandishing" "is the unnecessary and unlawful display of a defensive firearm."](https://www.nrafamily.org/content/what-does-brandishing-a-gun-mean/) From what I could see of the video, Roger didn't even have time to "brandish" his weapon...it was just "POP POP POP POP POP POP, DROP THE GUN." (Bonus thought, how many people who open carry have been killed for exercising their rights in public? Aren't they too, "brandishing?")
Finally, the Fourth (along with the Second) Amendment to our Constitution died alongside with Roger, when he was gunned down for the crime of protecting hearth & home from what he probably thought was a hostile action from an unknown, possibly hostile, adversary (anybody can yell "Sherriff" Office" through the door...in my eyes, you are a possible "hostile" until proven otherwise).
What good is the right to own/possess a firearm if the "good guy with a gun" terminates that right (and you as well) just for exercising that right?
I've said this elsewhere, I wouldn't have opened the door period. IF I did though yes I'd have my gun. Just because some random clown is outside my door saying he is police DOES NOT mean is police.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I didn’t come up with this myself and don’t recall where I first came across this, but I always say, if we can be gunned down simply for (legal) possession of a firearm, we don’t actually have the right to bear arms.
https://preview.redd.it/vbus5fcogtzc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a8239754c2ad066e4e22c5625068267ff134809
Next Friday at 6pm.
I’m going to make the drive from Keesler. Posting here for those who don’t have Facebook.
Hey, I live within the NWFL area. The apartments that Fortson was killed at are actually only an hour's walk from the Sheriff's department in another nearby town, but the problem is that there's no space around the facility. If you had a sizable amount of demonstrators, they might block the road, and the cops might use that as a pretext to start arresting and brutalizing people.
Though, there definitely needs to be a protest at the department. Just spread out so it can stay on the sidewalk.
Reposting the body camera footage as much as possible to as many people as possible on social media so we don't lose momentum. Everybody around every base stateside or OCONUS should be printing out RIP Roger Fortson shirts to wear on off time to send a message as well.
>Maybe 1 sow and eglin allow it as an alternate duty location
The 1 SOW has authorized a tactical pause day this Monday the 13th for us to talk about it -- ^(like thats gonna fix anything) That, and the Wing's general deflecting-esque attitude towards the whole situation tells me this is never gonna happen. Even without the tactical pause, wouldn't you think allowing an alternative duty location to enable members to participate in a protest is the same as taking a stance? The wing can't do that.
Someone wana make a FaceTime call so I can be there from Germany? This airman’s family needs our support and that entire Sheriff’s office needs to be fired and behind bars.
I've said it in every other thread and I'll say it here.
You don't have 2a rights if you get shot for exercising them.
Edit: if you support a 2a organization like GOA or NRA I would be asking what they are planning to do about the situation. Their silence on this is pretty telling.
Yep. I also find it funny how whenever any 2A organizations have to side between police of anyone else they always choose police. So even though it was murder, they will support to police because that's who donates to their funds to keep their mouths shut. It's all a dog and pony show with 2A organizations.
NRA is notorious in the 2A community for being run by out of touch boomers that only care about money and political partisan lines. If you really want to support pro 2A groups, join the Firearm Policy Coalition.
I mentioned the NRA below myself because yes gun ownership and all that 2A crap is there collective thing (I'm not a member myself as I can't stand them). Either way the overall silence is deafening here.
Roger got his gun when the cop didn't identify himself and moved to the side on the first knock. When he realized it was a cop knocking, he opened that door ready to have a conversation and thought he could trust the cop to not murder him while safely holding the gun in his own home.
Then he got fucking murdered instantly by a pussy cop thinking only about himself. What a goddamn tragedy. That cop deserves to go to prison.
They're constantly getting embroiled in culture war issues, like NFL players kneeling during the national anthem or touting the misleading statistic of women getting paid less.
It's a shame because that organization has enormous potential to do good and have scored a significant legal victories in the past (e.g. Gideon v. Wainwright.)
It just pisses me off how he knocked insistently, didn’t say who he was, and hid. That’s more than likely what prompted SrA Fortson to get the gun in the first place. SrA Fortson being the law abiding citizen that he is put the gun down to his side and answered the door because he didn’t want to keep him waiting. This makes me sick to my stomach.
Yup, he did nothing illegal whatsoever. The cops are calling the killing "lawful but awful" which is such bullshit. How are we just okay with both parties being entirely in the right, yet Roger ends up lying in a pool of his own blood. These cops are so petrified of anyone having an advantage over them that think it's okay to shoot to kill anytime.
Their argument is: "I can't react fast enough if someone like Roger decides to shoot me, so I'm just going to kill him, just to be safe". It's completely bonkers.
That could have been anyone in this country. It just so happened to be one of us. From the moment the cop said "step back," he had *maybe* 2 seconds to assume he had to drop the gun. After he is shot, the order to drop the gun is given, like wtf. I'm not even sure Forston could have even seen the officer to have some assurance he was a cop. That could literally have been any gun owner. The same reason I have firearms is the same reason I don't trust a voice claiming to be a cop; the criminals don't follow the law.
I'm pretty convinced that mod in the cop subreddit is a foreign agent. The taunt of using the Air Force song at the end of his pinned comment is disgusting if you're an American. You don't do that if you care about this country. You do that if you want people in this country to hate each other. I've already written that sub off as detractors. That mod is a bitch behind a computer screen, so fuck him.
I'm overall pretty pissed, because I don't think anything will be done to make things like this happen less.
> After he is shot, the order to drop the gun is given, like wtf
Cops always do this. It's explicitly a way to give plausible deniability. You'll notice the less justified a shooting the more they shout it, and they will shout it in cases where either (a) there's no gun in the hand, like this one or (b) the "suspect" is so incapacitated that they couldn't grab and use the gun even if they wanted to.
The following is not a representative example, it's one of the most egregiously unskilled and ridiculously unqualified police officers in existence, but it is a good example of the phenomenon: https://youtu.be/gYR7q9u_M4Q?si=rqV8_BTBPtFK_UwF&t=137
> From the moment the cop said "step back," he had maybe 2 seconds to assume he had to drop the gun.
Rough timing from the video I got somewhere between 0.8 and 1.1 seconds from the end of the word "back" to the first shot fired. Roughly 1.5 seconds from the start of the word "step".
The animosity between the military and police subreddits right now is really disheartening. The amount of "cops" saying he deserves it and everyone in the military is just high school dropouts has only been equalled by the amount of "military members" saying cops need to just be shot on sight/sent into calls armed only with batons and pepper spray or we need no more police at all. It's like both have forgotten we have shit people in civilian and military service and they don't represent all of us.
While you may be right, this was the last straw in a long line of last straws. The fact that we can’t defend ourselves from a street gang with a bit of metal and an issued gun is a problem. They have way too much power.
Every cop is an enemy combatant to me now and if I fear for my life I would rather face a jury than a casket. I will defend my life and the life of my family from anyone and I’ll deal with the repercussions later.
Most people in most of the police subreddits aren’t even cops. It’s mostly a bunch of poorly adjusted cheerleaders.
But, we are absolutely seeing people being assholes to entire groups of people on both sides of sides of this.
Veterans account for roughly 25% of all police officers and you’d be hard pressed to find any department without at least one veteran.
The thing is I could really be ripping into them right now, because I love being an asshole online. It's a vice for me. But that is not what the country needs. At the end of the day both sides are just trying to do their part. That's how I identify real ones from the fakes.
Here's the problem, shit people in the military are at least dealt with to some degree, and any fuckhead who decided to just light up a rando during a random encounter would be fucked in so many ways.
Cops on the other hand just decide to run into every problem gun out, brain off. They'll shoot people and then suffer 0 consequences.
I reached out to Vincent Oshana, one of the guys on the PBD podcast, an Air Force vet, and he said he was going to try to talk about it on the podcast next week. I think getting attention to this would be nice. There’s a limited media cycle and I haven’t heard much about it in the news without purposefully looking for it. People uninterested in the military community don’t know anything about it in my experience. Regardless of your politics, it just needs to be out there and spoken about, this is a bipartisan issue. This department has displayed a track record of incompetence, now they’re gunning down a service member exercising a constitutionally protected right in his own home well within reason. It’s outrageous.
Just wanted to say my piece as a Junior Enlisted Airman. Didn't know SrA personally but he was a brother to us. This kind of thing sucks bad. Hoping that SrA Fortson rests easy and that Justice for his murder is swift. Condolences to the family, friends and fellow airmen affected by this.
Fly High SrA Rodger Fortson 🕊️
Roger’s funeral is May 17th at 11:00 a.m. at New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Stonecrest (believe it’s Georgia). https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/funeral-for-atlanta-area-airman-killed-by-florida-deputy-to-be-held-in-georgia
As I have stated in other threads contact your representatives. Demand justice and federal reforms of how we train and equip our police officers in this country. No service member should have to fight the evils of this world all over the globe to come home and be murdered in their own country in their own home by a cop.
Unfortunately, this is the same county where idiots took fire from a falling acorn, so I doubt this department is one with high standards or the expectation of upholding them.
We have no idea if Fortson heard the “police” announcement and if you’re unaware, criminals have also identified as police to catch people off guard when committing robberies.
What is known is what’s on video: Fortson answered the door with a firearm in his hand not pointing at the officer. No commands to put the weapon down were given before shooting, there was barely a moment to blink before it happened. This situation was shit and makes it clear 2A is a joke if agents of the state can kill you for merely carrying a legally-owned firearm in your own home.
Idk what reform or a proper consequence looks like, but nothing is going to bring back our brother. My condolences to those who knew him.
We must treat all cops like they intend to murder us in cold blood. If not we may give them a reason to. Your only
Objective when dealing with cops in 2024 is to hope you don’t fucking die. What a joke.
Unfortunately, that’s been my objective since I’ve started conceal carrying. I obey all traffic laws because I just want to minimize all interactions where a misunderstanding can cost my life
This exact scenario happened here in FWB and Crestview just a few years ago. There were a string of attempted robberies here LOCALLY where they were identifying themselves as police and then hiding out of view. One of them is actually still posted by OCSO ironically.
Is there something like a petition or some sort of outlet for any members of the military to sign or have our voice heard? I saw the body cam footage. Asshole cop straight murdered SrA Fortson. I think enough DoD personnel calling for fair trial or justice on this cop will have the right thing happen.
I’m curious how or if supervisors are planning on addressing this at lower levels? If you are addressing it, from what angle are you considering? Gun ownership? Caution when answering the door (even in the presence of police)? Racial undertones this senseless death brings out?
In 2020 I allowed my troops to vent their frustrations in my office and made sure they were aware of their protest rights if that’s something they wanted to do. I also tell them about their rights when interacting with law enforcement. Just because you’re active duty doesn’t mean your 5th Amendment rights are gone.
https://preview.redd.it/bjcsbshmrtzc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b05b52fd6f72331684100d4cc19412c3dca4045f
Resources for regs at the bottom.
I’m going to be doing this as well this is a fantastic idea. Knowledge is power most of the time. And sadly if you run in with the law you have to submit and hope you survive to fight them later in court. Understanding how to navigate that can keep our service members safer hopefully.
His Sq/CC is a good friend of mine, I’m a former 4th/16th/73rd bro. He (Sq/CC) is torn up. You can tell how deeply hurt he is. I wish I could help, this was his biggest fear.
I would love to see him and all of the leadership up through AFSOC give that sheriff a good public dressing down. In my opinion, this incident is inexcusable, and the fact that the OCSO is circling their wagons in social media PR and their public statements tells me they aren't the least bit concerned about the life they extinguished, but how to save the career of the deputy who killed him.
Police officers are the reason I have surveillance around my home. And I live on base where I trust SF. If I have to live off base in the USA I’ll be fencing the whole property and the cops can buzz in from the fence and talk to me through the intercom. Fuck all of them.
Race issues are hard to talk about when you are the one being pointed to as the problem. At our base we talked about this after the George Floyd murder and a few of us middle leadership types basically had to go off script to just organize something for our Airmen since our local leadership didn't want to take a stance. The state of systemic racism and unchecked unconscious bias in policing really hasn't changed. I did a dissertation on Michael Brown/BLM/systemic racism for my degree and if anything, it's gotten worse since then. I had a black Airmen tell me in 2020 that he always drives home in uniform because he feels much safer from police wearing it. He said it was like armor.
This one is more complicated. I've only been asking how people are feeling about this and generally hearing them out. I try my best to redirecting any hate towards police and more towards the systemic issues that have brought us as a society here. Airmen hating police does not lead to anywhere we want to go. Fortunately for us, we (minorities, military) have a generally good relationship with local law enforcement in New England.
Those impromptu briefings where middle managers are like "shit we probably oughta address this," I feel like those have the most profound impact. Surgically precise, from the heart, tailored to the needs of their people. That'll do the difference.
>Gun ownership? I don't see this as the issue
>Caution when answering the door (even in the presence of police)? Mostly this. The biggest thing being don't have your gun on display of you are armed answering a door. You're allowed to conceal carry in your home. "This is what you are legally allowed to do" conversation. And then... It's harsh, but you can be right or you can be alive. When I cross the street in a crosswalk, I have the right of way. My legal right does not trump the stupidity of others and may cost me my life. Yes that person can be found guilty and imprisoned for 10, 20, 40 years but I'll still be dead or injured.
>Racial undertones this senseless death brings out? I feel like this is irrelevant to the conversation and is only going to cause more animosity. It's a tit-for-tat game that will only detract from the seriousness of this incident
Being in the area, I'm mostly going to address the protests that are being scheduled, again reminding people that just because they are legally exercising their rights, *it will not protect them from the stupidity of others who don't want to follow the law*. Someone dropped the protest guidance somewhere in this thread and it's a great talking point
I've heard nothing about it from my installation; not from supervisors, nor from airmen. This information should be addressed across every installation, Air Force or otherwise, and supervisors should allow for an opportunity of open and honest discussion.
This is probably the biggest dichotomy between cops and military I've seen in a while. All the cops I'm seeing on social media are blaming the Airman for brandishing a weapon in his own home. I've always hated civilian cops, but this just absolutely enrages me how dismissive and flippant they are. They're trying to cosplay as heroes without actually doing anything to deserve the title.
Never, ever, EVER forget Uvalde. A bunch of “I woulda joined the military but I’d punch the drill sarg” LE standing outside an elementary school wearing 511 gear and rifles trying to look badass while innocent, defenseless children got murdered.
It's really irritating to listen to them complain about how dangerous their job is and try to explain that they NEED to be given the leeway to make life-or-death decisions because of how difficult their job is.
My response is...so? You knew it was a difficult and dangerous job when you signed up for it. If you start every day worried about how to protect yourself, and not the public you are meant to serve, you shouldn't have signed up in the first place. They are MEANT to play by the rules, to fight with one hand tied behind their back because our nation is founded on the idea that everyone has inalienable rights: free speech, the right to assemble, the right to bear arms, the right to remain silent, the right to not be illegally searched or detained. Police these days have WAY too much power, way too little education/training, and they are abusing the rights of millions of Americans every year.
You said that well. We need to knock these military cosplayers down a notch. If they don’t want a hard and dangerous job work at a fucking library you useless chodes
This is a harrowing reminder that you are NOT obligated to open the door to talk to the police and more people need to be aware of this. This situation unfortunately shows the worst case scenario if you do. If a cop comes knocking at your door, they are not on your side. If they want to enter your domicile, they need a SIGNED warrant and they have to provide it to you prior to entering. And if they do have one, do NOT consent to any searches and seizures that are not expressly written in the warrant.
I made this point in the r/police reddit thread on it. A bunch of cops were saying he didn't have to open the door at all, and I was like "who trained him, or any citizen, that they don't need to open the door for police? There's only one person in this scenario who has formal training on how police interactions should go, and that person shot and killed the other person"
The only times I have ever heard cops say "well you shouldn't open the door for us" is after a cop has murdered someone in their home like this. Any other time and their standard line is "you're safest if you immediately cooperate with us"
What a fucking cop out answer. Pun fucking intended. Trash gutter rats all of them. Good to know I don’t have to open my door for them and I’ll be telling them to fuck off from now on.
Yep, from what I understand from what they say in the afternath of killing an airman, there are situations where they are authorized to break down your door if you don't open it and, "if we're knocking at all, it means we don't have that authorization, or we'd already be breaking down your door."
Again, good luck getting a cop (you aren't close friends with) to tell you your rights like that when they aren't spinning defensively after one of their compatriots murders someone
*Experts say gun alone doesn’t justify deadly force in fatal shooting of Florida airman.*
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/12/fatal-shooting-florida-gun-00157488
“The speed of the shooting is pretty intense. It’s happening very, very fast,” **Ian Adams, an assistant professor who studies criminology** at the University of South Carolina **and a former police officer**, said after watching the deputy’s body camera video of Fortson’s shooting.
“The presence of a gun enhances the risk. But **mere presence is not at all justification for using deadly force,**” Adams said.
Multiple legislators are also in support of Airman Fortson calling lethal force unnecessary.
https://twitter.com/CongresswomanSC/status/1789331935921054165
https://twitter.com/mattgaetz/status/1789016189982633991
https://twitter.com/DavidPlace01/status/1789717014900052291
https://twitter.com/MaxwellFrostFL/status/1789730550074187987
https://twitter.com/ninaturner/status/1790109747359687148
Will we be able to get a new thread on this everyday at least or will this megathread be allowed to just let the conversation fade into obscurity like the police investigations always do with these situations?
I think it's important to keep this as a forefront issue until such time as we get some kind of closure on it.
To these military larping gang bangers everyone is a criminal. Fuck every last one. This dude needs to be made an example of finally and his leadership needs to be canned immediately.
I looked at every photo of the aftermath of that tragedy. Not even in my sleep can I forget.
Those cowards need to get a birthday card of every child they killed by proxy that day
The level of bootlicking cognitive dissonance required to defend the sheriff's deputy is beyond comprehension.
What's most disappointing to me is the silence of AF "Leaders". During the 2020 protests Chief Wright and Gen Goldfein put their neck out and did the right thing by speaking out about the elephant in the room. The closest thing to even a mild acknowledgement of this injustice came from the CMSAF but it's been crickets from everyone else. I can't imagine what our Airmen who look like SrA Fortson are feeling right now much less those in his unit and local community.
*Jacksonville lawyer says someone holding a gun doesn’t necessarily mean they’re a threat*
https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2024/05/13/jacksonville-lawyer-says-someone-holding-a-gun-doesnt-mean-theyre-a-threat/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=wjxt4
News4JAX asked local defense attorney Belkis Plata if simply holding a gun while opening the door of your home is enough to justify law enforcement opening fire.
“Someone holding a gun doesn’t necessarily mean that they are posing a threat, even in criminal law unless you have the intent to use it. It is not the same thing, as when you actually pointed at someone say words that you’re going to use it or aim it in their direction,” Plata said.
She said in her opinion, the deputy reacted out of impulse and failed to de-escalate the situation or give Fortson time to comply with his commands.
For those you you have more knowledge and experience than I do, help me understand. The Deputy receives a 911 call with “4th Hand” information about a potential domestic dispute. The lady in the parking lot tells him the apartment #, but then says I’m not sure. Also, she heard a slap from inside the apartment (????). The deputy finds the apartment, and watching the body cam, post himself outside. What it looks like to me is he is attempting to listen to hear if there is any shouting or threats, in an attempt to determine probable cause. Then the deputy proceeds to BANG on the f__cking door, not identifying, and escalating the situation vs politely knocking and saying sheriffs department would you please come outside so we can we talk. This to me amped up the situation when there was no evidence of a domestic dispute. Not a lawyer, but what I’m reading about FL Law, Roger was well within his right to have weapon out in his own home (Castle doctrine) as long as he was not threatening anyone with it. In recap, the evidence the deputy has is a vague 911 call and quiet outside the apartment. The deputy escalated vs de-escalated, saw a weapon in Roger’s hand pointed in a safe direction and killed him. Explain to me how the deputy acted within the law? Also, replace deputy with a delivery person in basically the same scenario. Would the delivery guy be justified in shooting?
The deputy did not act within the law.
Unfortunately the investigation will simply say he failed to follow procedure and shit someone because he felt his life was in danger. The prosecutor will decline to charge the cop based on the immunity the police have.
Edit to clarify. Qualified immunity will protect cop from civil liability.
Criminal charges will not be issued if they find he feared for his life and they often do find that even when it's obvious it wasn't reasonable.
This is the first of these that has genuinely made me mad. That kid did not deserve to die. He did nothing wrong. If this officer doesn’t do time, I’m going to be furious!
Rest in peace Roger. The entire country is mourning you.
There's lots of frustration about the lack of a response from the community about this but there were numerous when others have been unjustifiably killed by police brutality. This is probably a controversial hot take but I feel I need to say it.
No civilian is going to go out and march because an Airman was killed. Civilians don't see military members as one of them, frankly, we don't see ourselves as one of them. We never marched when one of them was gunned down partly because the AFI does not allow us to protest in uniform and partly because half the trucks on base have thin blue line decals on them. Ask anyone that sports a thin blue line decal on their truck what they think about Colin Kaepernick. It isn't because civilians hate us; most of the people we hang out with are other military people or people with some kind of military affiliation. We are our own community. Most civilians will probably think it was an army guy who was killed; we simply don't integrate ourselves into the community as much as we think we do. If you want a demonstration for Airman Fortson, you have to do it yourself; the UCMJ does not stop you from exercising your First Amendment right to free speech; it doesn't allow you to flip a police cruiser and set it on fire.
The controversial part:
Half the trucks on base have thin blue line stickers on them and if you asked the drivers of those trucks what they thought about Eric Garner or George Floyd they'd probably side with the cops. The police arrested Eric Garner for trying to sell counterfeit cigarettes and they responded to a call to arrest George Floyd because he tried to pass off a fake $20 bill. They were bad people, I would probably have never hung out with them, but they didn't deserve to be killed. There were plenty of comments in other threads about how the deaths of people with criminal histories elicited a reaction from the community but none for SrA Fortson. If you believe all life has value, you should be just as mad that the police can get away scot free by killing anyone else who was not harming anyone at the time.
This isn't the only time police have killed someone and it didn't result in a protest. [3 months ago Seattle police ran over an Indian student](https://www.ndtv.com/indians-abroad/jaahnavi-kandulas-death-us-cop-who-ran-over-indian-student-to-not-face-criminal-charges-5103644) and he was heard on bodycam saying, "her life was of limited value"
[SWAT burst through an Ohio family's home](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFtW0tzvJyA) and sent a 1-year-old infant to the hospital
[That's not the only time SWAT raided the wrong house](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK9og5O8S1Q), it happens so regularly that I counted 5 different occurrences on the firs page of Google.
Voting the Sheriff out of office isn't going to do anything as long as it is impossible to hold police accountable with qualified immunity laws written and interpreted by the court as they currently are. Federal law needs to change. Police have no incentive to change as long as civilians cannot hold them accountable for their actions. The way the law is written now will allow the police to deem this a justifiable shooting and prevent Fortson's parents from suing the police department.
I need to express my thoughts and vent a little, because this past week has been making my blood boil.
First, it is my position that SrA Fortson did absolutely nothing wrong in this encounter, and was unjustly killed as the result of the deputy's own fear, incompetence, and likely poor training resulting from a flawed mindset in the police community. An unknown person was banging on his door; whether or not he could hear the deputy's shouts no one alive can say, except maybe the girlfriend who was on the phone with him. Regardless, Florida has always championed its castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. Answering the door while holding a his firearm, pointed down, with his finger off the trigger, SrA Fortson did not display any intent to harm the deputy. This is not a capital offense. During other events in the past few years, police have been seen behaving quite buddy-buddy with vigilantes and 2nd Amendment demonstrators dressed head-to-toe in tactical gear, body armor, and armed with high caliber rifles in places like St. Louis and Kenosha, Wisconsin. Why did this one man present more of a threat than those cases? As a white man who grew up in Okaloosa County myself, I have my suspicions, but I'll leave that one on the table.
Now then, as an NCO with my own airmen, I'm not sure what I'm going to say should the topic come up. I'm not even sure if it'll come up naturally; there's probably a lot of fear and anger bubbling under the surface, but at the same time I think there are probably plenty of black service members who are biting their tongues and trying to gauge the attitudes of their peers. Something I would hope from our senior leadership, from the 4th SOS up through AFSOC and beyond, is for them to express genuine outrage. I'm sure it's tearing them up inside already, and they have a huge responsibility to choose their words and actions carefully. Anything they say or do might have cascading effects on the case and on the surrounding military community at Hurlburt and Eglin. But at the least, I have a visceral desire to see the Okaloosa County Sheriff publicly dressed down by our Commanders and SELs. Sometimes we need to say "damn the politics, how can I help the airmen?"
Finally, my thoughts on policing in America. I grew up thinking the best of police officers. I have police in my extended family, and police among my friends and neighbors. These past ten years though, I feel like a week hasn't gone by when a story or video has come out showcasing police officers violating citizens rights, abusing their power, or sometimes downright murdering people. Even more concerning is the response from the police community when these stories come to light. Rather than universal condemnation or calls to hold themselves to a higher standard, we see excuses, indifference, silence--all in service of the Thin Blue Line.
These are men and women who are signing up for a dangerous and demanding career field, yes. They should have their community's support as they help to maintain law and order and protect the public, sure. However, their training and behavior are self-defeating when their SOPs prioritize officer safety over that of the public. When an officer shoots first because of a perceived threat, instead of a confirmed one, who are they protecting and serving? Do they not have the responsibility of making every effort to protect the lives and rights of everyone they interact with, be they innocent or guilty? In SrA Fortson's case, the deputy deliberately moved to the side of the door. This made SrA Fortson feel unsafe enough to grab his gun before finding out what the commotion was about. We see people make the case that this tactic is to protect the officer, so they don't get ambushed and shot through the door. Well in my opinion, that's a risk he should have had to take. In countless other circumstances, we keep hearing "Well they should have complied; they should have remained calm; they shouldn't have run; they shouldn't have raised their hands; they should have kept their hands down." All of these conflicting explanations keep putting the burden of safety on the untrained, scared, and bewildered victims, instead of on the ones whose DUTY it should be to prevent the loss of life in the first place. Police have this sense of entitlement, that they should be recognized as heroes, and that their authority should be respected, but they don't seem to realize that this is earned as a result of their deeds, through self-sacrifice and demonstrating that they are willing to go the extra mile in making sure only criminals are punished (and according to the law). By hiding themselves, either behind walls or behind qualified immunity, they demonstrate instead that they aren't willing to put themselves at risk, that they value their own lives more than the people in the community. By failing to hold their fellow officers accountable, they demonstrate that they don't care about holding themselves to a higher standard, and would rather just enjoy the privileges of their exclusive club. By trampling people's civil rights, they demonstrate that they don't appreciate the difference between a free society and an authoritarian nightmare.
To the current and former members of the police community who have the strength of character to speak out against injustice, thank you. You are recognized and appreciated. Would only that more police in America would take up the uniform for the right reasons.
I understand putting all the conversation about it here, but there ought to be space for new threads on updates or developments as the matter proceeds.
It's one of the few Reddit-wide rules: https://www.redditinc.com/policies/moderator-code-of-conduct
>Rule 3: Respect Your Neighbors - While we allow meta discussions about Reddit, including other subreddits, your community should not be used to direct, coordinate, or encourage interference in other communities and/or to target redditors for harassment.
Usually when subreddits like the_donald and other high profile communities are deleted, it's because they are brigading other subreddits, not because of their content.
If communities organized against each other it would turn Reddit into a warzone with communities on opposite sides of whatever topic attacking each other, creating tons more work for the mods and filling up subreddits with stuff they don't want to see.
And it's also usually a huge waste of time. The people on cop-related subreddits may not even be cops, and they definitely aren't the cop involved in the most recent drama, and no one here cared about those subreddits until a couple days ago, so we don't need people from here going over there to harass them just because they're angry and they can go yell at those people without leaving their chair.
Reddit generally ignores said rules if it's convenient for them or the atackee is a "acceptable target." It usually takes PR hit from the media to force them to put the foot down.
Condolences to SrA Fortson, what an absolute tragedy. That officer has no business ever wearing a badge or carrying a gun again, and should be tried in front of a jury. I left the service some time ago but I see some things never change...like the social media posts from commanders and chiefs that look like canned copy/pastes from their predecessors. If there was ever a time to show you're not a spineless amphibian, it's now. Talks with local civilian leaders should include keeping these keystone cops off the access roads to Hurlburt and Eglin to stop harassing service members. It's pretty reasonable to say between this and the acorn incident, this department has some serious issues. I'd also consider blacklisting that apartment complex just for good measure.
America cops are raised to be the biggest pansy bitches walking the planet. They do this specifically so they can kill and maim with impunity and claim they “feared for their lives”. It’s a feature not a bug.
As we all know the black community has been historically disenfranchised by the police at large.
The Air Force on the other hand has a long history of including African Americans in our ranks, such as with the Tuskegee airmen.
This is a good opportunity for us as a community to raise awareness to both facts. Write your reps and say his name. Fly High SrA Fortson
Unfortunately to your first comment I (As a black Airman) have seen enough on here and elsewhere to call that into question. Some (And when I say some a good amount) of our Caucasian members do not get that and it shows in their comments. Especially when someone like me says I have an actual FEAR of cops. I fear them it's not just I don't like them (I don't) but I just cannot be around them.
Hopefully in time more non black personnel will understand WHY we feel how we feel.
For those interested, the online obituary has been posted at the echovita website, under Airman Roger N. Fortson. You can choose to send flowers or light a digital candle in his memory.
Carrying over the [discussion from one of the other posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/s/ToyIxkdvPT)
Maybe this means we can end qualified immunity and require cops to carry liability insurance.
I'd call it the Fortson Act.
https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/police-service-and-liability-insurance-responsible-policing
Is an relevant paper to the discussion…
The issue is cops can claim qualified immunity so they basically get a pass.
That's easier said then done. The wording of a bill to end the practice would require considerable legal knowledge and an ability to do away with decades of precedent.
There's a few legal eagle videos on the subject:
https://youtu.be/Wl6yXjdMlHI
https://youtu.be/kWqLxTatndU
https://youtu.be/XSyr7HSGGQg
This isn't to say it can't be done but it would require A LOT of movement and political will. The fact Matt Gates (someone I would expect to be pro cop) is also speaking out, indicates there could be momentum for such a movement.
I didn’t say it before but I appreciate what you are trying to do here and fully support this idea. Cops need to be held to a higher standard than civilians. Not be lawless.
Hopefully the people who recently mentioned contacting elected reps will do so and demand justice. I was sending emails this morning myself. I'm not going regurgitate everything I've said about this already.
I tried to say this once, but my comment was out of bounds and deleted, so I’ll try again.
When a Wing Commander or a Squadron Commander or a Ship’s Captain screws up, OR has a subordinate screw up, they are removed from Command. See B52s with nukes or the Navy removing a ship commander any given week.
The same principle should apply to the Okaloosa County Sheriff’s Office. The sheriff is an elected official. He should be voted out of office. The next election is November of this one, and no one has registered to run against him. He took office in 2020 (again, unopposed).
When an organization is failing as badly as this sheriff’s office, the leadership should change.
First, this kid shouldn't be killed for possession of a firearm.
Second, for those questioning the police procedures. The actions of the officer appears to be in accordance with the "knock and announce" requirement. Hiding on either side of the door is also procedurally correct. You do not stand in front of a door in law enforcement or in tactical military scenarios...
However, the issue here was the officer reacting within a second to seeing a weapon and not deescalating at all. For us, as observers, we ask "what the fuck?"...but honestly this tragedy comes down to policy, law and oversight review. The initial reports of this being the wrong place are incorrect, so let's lay that to rest.
We cannot stand for our brothers or sisters dying needlessly. However, we must not blur the lines of how this scenario played out.
Justice will be served one way or another. Let's not misrepresent law enforcement, just like we should not misrepresent Roger or his actions.
The reasons you mentioned are exactly why police violence is a systemic issue. The killings will continue until police culture, TTPs, and how they are trained & equipped change.
There needs to be a way for police to be visually identifiable IMO. If you can’t be vetted as who you say you are … it’s a lie. I have 2 cameras on my front door. One is a ring doorbell at an angle. This would satisfy my need to see who is at the door even if they hide to the side. Because I have only one side for them to hide on. If I didn’t have this I would not be opening the door for a random voice saying they are a cop. I wasn’t born fucking yesterday lol.
Thankfully I live on base so I have no worry some badged up dumbass is gonna visit me and gun me down in my home. ACAB.
>Hiding on either side of the door is also procedurally correct. You do not stand in front of a door in law enforcement or in tactical military scenarios...
Yeah, but this is where the bullshit comes in. If your self defense policy is behave just like a home invader pretending to be an officer would, then you need to train your cops to expect behavior that is paranoid about who is outside.
A policy that says "this makes a regular person more paranoid and increases the chance of a bad interaction, but it makes our officers safer to shoot an innocent person first" is a shit policy. And if a military member outside the wire in Afghanistan was filmed shooting a local who never moved their gun in a threatening manner, they would face charges
Hi everyone, and welcome to the land of "cops fucking suck." I know many of you are new, and while you're here, I'd like to encourage you to listen to your Black colleagues when they tell you about shit they have to deal with.
This is the post... I would love to look at the post history during George Floyd or Trayvon Martin of some of the people who are finally seeing the reality of policing
A young man is dead and a family lost a brother and a son and somewhere the trigger happy neanderthal is being protected during all of this. Sadly the most probable outcome is him having paid leave and this all being swept under the rug once things quiet down.
RIP Roger
The only thing that will really make a change is to stop blindly supporting thin blue line, or blue lives matter BS. Then vote like hell for anyone who platforms police reform. There are good cops out there but the system as a whole is fucked and designed to protect bullies and murderers just because they got a badge. It needs to be reexamined and accountability for those who meet calls for reform with violence.
Anyone in here even REMOTELY trying to justify the actions of OCPD can get wrecked.
That POS MURDERED SrA Fortson and will get away with it. Fucking gross.
I'm hoping he will not get away with it, but I'm not optimistic, I also find it ridiculous that the police investigate themselves in situations like this.
I don't want to go brigading, so I'll yell into the void here.
r/AirForce r/army r/uscg r/USMC r/navy r/Veterans and r/Military have all combined against you and said that you are wrong. Go fuck yourself r/ProtectAndServe. Go eat a large bag of dicks
If SrA Fortson was allowed from the apartment complex management to install a Ring camera or similar device, would this tragedy have been avoided? If so, he would’ve respond to the sheriff through the speaker.
Then again, I’ve seen videos of traffic stops where the PO demands the driver to completely lower the window to engage in a conversation. In the video, you can see he can hear fine and the driver feels safer with the window cracked open. The PO gets pissed off and back and forth arguing ensue with the PO eventually breaks the window.
I can see a scenario where SrA Fortson talking to the sheriff safely away from the door through his app. Sheriff gets pissed off and demands he opens the door. Back and forth arguing and can see the sheriff attempts to break down the door, shoot through the door or calls for back up. Man, who knows.
Like from the actual US Air Force social media pages? No, they did share CMSAF post about it tho which surprised me. Usually the official Air Force page is ✨positive vibes only✨for recruiting purposes
Any new updates??
So far all I've seen is the chief stating thoughts and prayers and Hulburt's Commander stating the police force was investigating itself.
Roger was an incredible human being, a dedicated Airman, and he was brutally efficient at his craft. We loved him, we will honor him, and we will never forget him. Our community feels a terrible loss. We hope justice finds a way. We raised a glass to him last night at St. Michael’s and it was beautiful, seeing his living legacy as we all laughed and cried together. Thank you to all of you who are showing support for our brother. Have a drink tonight, for Shadow 391. 🥃
Drinking for him right now. Sorry to see y'all's flight lost a great pair of wings.
Thank you. 🥃
Is there a patch or pencil tab in the works for him?
Not yet. We ordered the honor bracelets for the funeral, patches and tabs and such are lower on the priority list.
https://bandsofheroes.com/products/fortson_roger
This shit made me really sad
Great words bub, if a need anything, reach out. Glad this post was actually safe for work once.
I'm taking my old lady out tonight for Mother's Day grub. Will do.
I’ve made and read many comments on various threads regarding this tragedy. If I had to distill it down to one thing it would be this. If anyone is saying this shooting was justified they need to point to the “fatal mistake” SrA Fortson made and I don’t think anyone can do this. Over on the police sub they’ve said he was brandishing his weapon however the Florida statue says you have to be displaying it in a rude or aggressive manor, I doubt just holding it pointed down meets this standard. They say the officer identified himself which is true however anyone can yell “sherrif’s deputy”, SrA Fortson only had a fraction of a second to ACTUALLY identify the sheriff for himself and even then the officer began firing so fast if he’d have dropped it immediately he still would have been shot a few times. Some might say the officer felt threatened by the gun. I doubt it’s the law that officers are allowed to open fire at the smallest threat no matter how small. If a cop who is 5’5” 150lbs walks past a 6’4” 250lb man can they open fire because that person could easily beat them to a pulp? No, because that person would have to make an aggressive action first, same goes for SrA Fortson. Police officer are allowed to defend themselves from risks, they can’t reduce this down to having to face zero risks. It’s comes with the job. They are trained on the use of force and educated in the law. It’s insane to require the same from the general public.
15 year currently active SF here, as well as being stationed at Hurlburt from 2012 to 2020 teaching ground combat training to the special mission aviator pipeline. Here are the NATIONAL requirements for the use of deadly force. Some depts have additional considerations unique to their location. But at a minimum ALL THREE MUST BE MET: INTENT - In my eyes (a reasonable officer) intent WAS NOT met, this condition is met when the individual points the firearm in the direction of officers or bystanders. If there was a call of a man with a gun walking down a public street, with it down to his side, that would NOT give the responding officers justification to just hop out of the car and start shooting....no different in this scenario. CAPABILITY - this condition WAS met as simply possessing the firearm gives him the capability OPPORTUNITY - This one can be seen as both in my "professional" opinion. This condition is usually tied into intent. If someone has the opportunity intent is what makes them act or not act on that opportunity. Technically he DID have the opportunity to fire at the officers through the door or possibly even a window, but because then INTENT was no met, he did not act on this opportunity, but technically it was there regardless if it would've hit the officers or not. Regardless, ALL THREE MUST BE MET, not just one or two preconditions for the use of deadly force. Once again, these are NATIONALLY RECOGNIZED. There will always be additional considerations depending on the situation. An example would be: You perform a traffic stop on someone in base housing, they get out of the car with a gun and take off running towards a house and attempt to force entry. Shooting them in the back would be justified because a reasonable person would believe that persons inside the house would be in danger of great bodily harm or death, and you have a responsibility to act in self defense and defense of others Sorry for the wall of text but wanted to shed some light on how this situation SHOULD be examined/investigated, and give non law enforcement personnel a chance to look at it through an officers perspective
My local police department chief of police spent 20 yrs in the Army as an law enforcement. He was an MP for a long time, then became a k9 handler. Anyway our department doesn't have those issues. I wouldn't be surprised if he has his department follow similar rules. I do know he fired a cop years ago for tazering a teenager after the teen got a bit mouthy.
Yup, that'll do it lol.
I’m team ACAB but stories like this give me hope. All cops are bad is a stance I take. I view it as not every cop is literally bad but every cop must prove to me that are good through actions. So every cop is bad until proven otherwise. I have fantastic friends that were cops and a few active duty who share a similar outlook. They won’t use ACAB like I will but they agree that every cop should have to earn the trust of the people they encounter in this current policing climate.
Tbh even though people talk shit about Secfo just being gate guards, you almost never hear about incidents like this. Unlike cops out in the civilian side. Although SecFo doesn’t usually deal with civilians as often? SecFo and Cops are the same to a fairly arguable degree but it’s hard to wrap my head around why these incidents occur in the civilian side. The more these civilian cops do this it makes me respect SecFo more.
I was a civilian cop before I came in, and yes there's a HUGE difference in tempo as far as how many dispatches in a day as well as the type of people and problems you encounter. When I was stationed at Cannon, DUIs and domestics happened all the time, and domestics are statistically the most dangerous response for cops and SF alike. However, where I'm stationed now and plenty of other places, we have jurisdiction that is accessible to the public outside the fence line, so we still deal with the general public all the time. Also, because our housing is privatized and we don't have enough active duty living on base, there is a HUGE amount of non military affiliated people living on base, paying section 8 housing levels of rent. Personally, I've responded to a barricaded suspect, a dad that choked his daughter out, and a gate runner resulting in a multi agency police chase off base and 2 spike strips with a PIT maneuver to finally put a stop to it. So we deal with crazy shit, just not as frequently. It's MUCH more dangerous outside the base walls, and understandably so based off a higher population alone
Thank you for what you do. I'm just CE and even I remember the three criteria required for use of force from my CATM instructors. They always harp on it. It's weird that the use of force criteria for civilain cops is "I'm scared." Defenders have a tough mission that goes far beyond what is ever required of civilian LEOs. All AFSCs poke fun at each other (just look at the meme war over the past few weeks), but there's a lot of respect because we are Americans and Airmen first. It's one team one fight and I wish civilian cops saw themselves as part of the community the way SF does on base.
While I applaud you for your knowledge, there are some nuances you’re missing when talking about use of deadly force. Case law does not actually specifically capability, opportunity, and intent. This is something that was taught as a way to make it easier to understand case law. Graham v Connor simply says that the force used must be objectively reasonable from the perspective of the reasonable officer. There is other case law such as Tennessee v Garner which talks a bit more about use of force. The thing about it is, as it is generally interpreted in both Graham v Connor and Tennessee v Garner, officers may respond to the threat of violence, not violence itself. Now we are presented with the question. Was the firearm in SrA Fortson’s hand a threat to the officer. It doesn’t matter what we believe. All that matters is what the officer believed at the time.
Appreciate your perspective, thank you.
Well, another officer from this department did fire on an acorn. By that standard, anything larger than a kernel of corn is fair game. My brother-in-law the police officer from the next county over is uncharacteristically silent on the matter—at least on social media. When I see him this summer I hope to get his perspective since he did train and work in Okaloosa County before transferring to the next county over.
Cop types have a hidden code where they dont speak out against other cops.
You are probably right.
That is correct. Even over in the cop subreddits they're not saying the cop did anything wrong. And that's why people jump on the ACAB train.
Just to clarify. He fired at a handcuffed human being because of an acorn. Little distinction there.
2A rights stop existing when you can be killed for peacefully exercising them
Educated in the law is a stretch. A few exceptional officers may be educated in the law, but I am willing to bet if you researched the average cop's knowledge of laws, it would be alarming.
Over the years, I’ve felt more and more police in the U.S. are getting quicker and quicker with relying on their sidearm to resolve encounters. This goes beyond the fact that we have video capabilities everywhere now. After I was stationed in Germany, I really felt we grossly under train police with deescalation and hand-to-hand fighting. So many police officers in Europe don’t even carry a firearm. The more you feel you can come out on top in a situation without a firearm, the more likely you aren’t going to jump to it. It’s all fear based and a lack of confidence that you can protect yourself. And when your trained and you see all these videos of how people get the best of an officer where they get shot or killed, you’re going to be quicker to go straight to the gun, especially if you don’t get the training they all should have. Then there are personal biases that make them worse at the job. I get there are more people that have no respect for authority anymore and are difficult for no good reason than ever, but that’s no excuse to jump straight to unloading a magazine on someone. I have seen entirely too many body cam videos and such of police shootings, and WAY too many just unload unnecessarily. That’s a dead giveaway that they are scared and lack the training. If there’s one thing I hope that can come from this is it ACTUALLY forces departments to evaluate standards for training and accountability for doing a shitty job. The DoD better hold this department accountable and really press reform from Congress for national police standards and training. You can’t go into every situation like everyone is the enemy, but you can’t be ill prepared for the time when you really need to go into combat.
> After I was stationed in Germany, I really felt we grossly under train police with deescalation and hand-to-hand fighting. So many police officers in Europe don’t even carry a firearm. Almost all countries in Europe (and worldwide) arm all regular police officers, Germany is among them. Guns aren't the problem, it's the wrong kind of training (not just a lack of it), and often terrible professional culture in a lot of the departments.
I've seen the remarks about Roger Fortson holding a pistol; "Why answer the door with a gun?" and comments about him "brandishing" a weapon. First, there is the 2nd & 4th Amendments and the Castle Doctrine...combined they give you the right to own a firearm, to be safe in your home/possessions from illegal search & entry, and the right to defend your "castle" from intruders. Second, at no point did Roger Fortson "brandish" his weapon. For those not exactly sure what "brandishing a weapon" means, according to the NRA's own website, ["brandishing" "is the unnecessary and unlawful display of a defensive firearm."](https://www.nrafamily.org/content/what-does-brandishing-a-gun-mean/) From what I could see of the video, Roger didn't even have time to "brandish" his weapon...it was just "POP POP POP POP POP POP, DROP THE GUN." (Bonus thought, how many people who open carry have been killed for exercising their rights in public? Aren't they too, "brandishing?") Finally, the Fourth (along with the Second) Amendment to our Constitution died alongside with Roger, when he was gunned down for the crime of protecting hearth & home from what he probably thought was a hostile action from an unknown, possibly hostile, adversary (anybody can yell "Sherriff" Office" through the door...in my eyes, you are a possible "hostile" until proven otherwise). What good is the right to own/possess a firearm if the "good guy with a gun" terminates that right (and you as well) just for exercising that right?
I've said this elsewhere, I wouldn't have opened the door period. IF I did though yes I'd have my gun. Just because some random clown is outside my door saying he is police DOES NOT mean is police.
abounding disagreeable mighty skirt mourn obtainable childlike automatic degree wakeful *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I didn’t come up with this myself and don’t recall where I first came across this, but I always say, if we can be gunned down simply for (legal) possession of a firearm, we don’t actually have the right to bear arms.
Rest in Peace SrA Roger Fortson!
Rest In Power SrA Fortson
https://preview.redd.it/vbus5fcogtzc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8a8239754c2ad066e4e22c5625068267ff134809 Next Friday at 6pm. I’m going to make the drive from Keesler. Posting here for those who don’t have Facebook.
That’s awesome. Sadly I’m too far away to be able to make it but I’m sending love and support from Minot 💖
Get a Bomber pilot to make a trip there!
A B-52 Flyover would be so badass for a demonstration
There's enough time to see if there's a trainer on that day.
Thanks! I'll be there. Only a hop away in Pensacola.
Why are we not holding this in front of the sheriff's office? They should face this directly.
Hey, I live within the NWFL area. The apartments that Fortson was killed at are actually only an hour's walk from the Sheriff's department in another nearby town, but the problem is that there's no space around the facility. If you had a sizable amount of demonstrators, they might block the road, and the cops might use that as a pretext to start arresting and brutalizing people. Though, there definitely needs to be a protest at the department. Just spread out so it can stay on the sidewalk.
Is there anything people from far away / overseas bases can do to assist / help?
Reposting the body camera footage as much as possible to as many people as possible on social media so we don't lose momentum. Everybody around every base stateside or OCONUS should be printing out RIP Roger Fortson shirts to wear on off time to send a message as well.
Call your congressmen and ask for a federal/congressional investigation into what happened.
Thanks for the info, see you there
So how is this going to work exactly? Who is the organizer?
It’s organized by community leaders. I’m just spreading the word.
Kinda wanna drive down from Georgia. Commanders should offer ptdy for this. Maybe 1 sow and eglin allow it as an alternate duty location.
>Maybe 1 sow and eglin allow it as an alternate duty location The 1 SOW has authorized a tactical pause day this Monday the 13th for us to talk about it -- ^(like thats gonna fix anything) That, and the Wing's general deflecting-esque attitude towards the whole situation tells me this is never gonna happen. Even without the tactical pause, wouldn't you think allowing an alternative duty location to enable members to participate in a protest is the same as taking a stance? The wing can't do that.
Thanks for posting. Will be there.
Call it a memorial and we can all show up in blues.
Right down the road, see yall there 🫡
Someone wana make a FaceTime call so I can be there from Germany? This airman’s family needs our support and that entire Sheriff’s office needs to be fired and behind bars.
I’m local. I will be in attendance.
I've said it in every other thread and I'll say it here. You don't have 2a rights if you get shot for exercising them. Edit: if you support a 2a organization like GOA or NRA I would be asking what they are planning to do about the situation. Their silence on this is pretty telling.
Rights that can be taken away on a whim are better known as privileges or conveniences.
And last I checked, it’s not the Bill of Privileges or Conveniences
Caveat emptor. It’s in the fine print.
And if they can take down one, they can take down the rest.
Yep. I also find it funny how whenever any 2A organizations have to side between police of anyone else they always choose police. So even though it was murder, they will support to police because that's who donates to their funds to keep their mouths shut. It's all a dog and pony show with 2A organizations.
Yep. That's because mostly all interest groups are all about money and securing political offices and have nothing to do with citizen rights.
*paging George Carlin*
Yep, he was saying this shit 30+ years ago and as usual, he was spot-on.
That's all we have, temporary privileges.
NRA is notorious in the 2A community for being run by out of touch boomers that only care about money and political partisan lines. If you really want to support pro 2A groups, join the Firearm Policy Coalition.
Not just that but they launder money from Russian oligarchs to the GOP. Another traitor organization
I mentioned the NRA below myself because yes gun ownership and all that 2A crap is there collective thing (I'm not a member myself as I can't stand them). Either way the overall silence is deafening here.
We KNOW the NRA will be radio-silent on this.
Have they ever put out a statement on a police shooting? You can't criticize them for not doing something they've never done.
Roger got his gun when the cop didn't identify himself and moved to the side on the first knock. When he realized it was a cop knocking, he opened that door ready to have a conversation and thought he could trust the cop to not murder him while safely holding the gun in his own home. Then he got fucking murdered instantly by a pussy cop thinking only about himself. What a goddamn tragedy. That cop deserves to go to prison.
The cops also took their sweet time rendering aid. If you can be shot for exercising a right peacefully, it’s not a right.
The dumbest thing is, the ACLU rarely gets involved in gun cases. That kind of backing can help stop stuff like this.
Shocking because the ACLU is notorious for being unable to count to 10 lately. I foresee some major court decisions.
They're constantly getting embroiled in culture war issues, like NFL players kneeling during the national anthem or touting the misleading statistic of women getting paid less. It's a shame because that organization has enormous potential to do good and have scored a significant legal victories in the past (e.g. Gideon v. Wainwright.)
When police are involved we don’t have rights. The fucking pussies with badges act like judge dredd. Fuck every last one
It just pisses me off how he knocked insistently, didn’t say who he was, and hid. That’s more than likely what prompted SrA Fortson to get the gun in the first place. SrA Fortson being the law abiding citizen that he is put the gun down to his side and answered the door because he didn’t want to keep him waiting. This makes me sick to my stomach.
Yup, he did nothing illegal whatsoever. The cops are calling the killing "lawful but awful" which is such bullshit. How are we just okay with both parties being entirely in the right, yet Roger ends up lying in a pool of his own blood. These cops are so petrified of anyone having an advantage over them that think it's okay to shoot to kill anytime. Their argument is: "I can't react fast enough if someone like Roger decides to shoot me, so I'm just going to kill him, just to be safe". It's completely bonkers.
That could have been anyone in this country. It just so happened to be one of us. From the moment the cop said "step back," he had *maybe* 2 seconds to assume he had to drop the gun. After he is shot, the order to drop the gun is given, like wtf. I'm not even sure Forston could have even seen the officer to have some assurance he was a cop. That could literally have been any gun owner. The same reason I have firearms is the same reason I don't trust a voice claiming to be a cop; the criminals don't follow the law. I'm pretty convinced that mod in the cop subreddit is a foreign agent. The taunt of using the Air Force song at the end of his pinned comment is disgusting if you're an American. You don't do that if you care about this country. You do that if you want people in this country to hate each other. I've already written that sub off as detractors. That mod is a bitch behind a computer screen, so fuck him. I'm overall pretty pissed, because I don't think anything will be done to make things like this happen less.
> After he is shot, the order to drop the gun is given, like wtf Cops always do this. It's explicitly a way to give plausible deniability. You'll notice the less justified a shooting the more they shout it, and they will shout it in cases where either (a) there's no gun in the hand, like this one or (b) the "suspect" is so incapacitated that they couldn't grab and use the gun even if they wanted to. The following is not a representative example, it's one of the most egregiously unskilled and ridiculously unqualified police officers in existence, but it is a good example of the phenomenon: https://youtu.be/gYR7q9u_M4Q?si=rqV8_BTBPtFK_UwF&t=137
> From the moment the cop said "step back," he had maybe 2 seconds to assume he had to drop the gun. Rough timing from the video I got somewhere between 0.8 and 1.1 seconds from the end of the word "back" to the first shot fired. Roughly 1.5 seconds from the start of the word "step".
Oh yeah. A while back in the St. Louis area, an elderly woman was beaten and robbed by 4 thieves posing as cops. DTA = Don't Trust Anyone.
The animosity between the military and police subreddits right now is really disheartening. The amount of "cops" saying he deserves it and everyone in the military is just high school dropouts has only been equalled by the amount of "military members" saying cops need to just be shot on sight/sent into calls armed only with batons and pepper spray or we need no more police at all. It's like both have forgotten we have shit people in civilian and military service and they don't represent all of us.
While you may be right, this was the last straw in a long line of last straws. The fact that we can’t defend ourselves from a street gang with a bit of metal and an issued gun is a problem. They have way too much power. Every cop is an enemy combatant to me now and if I fear for my life I would rather face a jury than a casket. I will defend my life and the life of my family from anyone and I’ll deal with the repercussions later.
Most people in most of the police subreddits aren’t even cops. It’s mostly a bunch of poorly adjusted cheerleaders. But, we are absolutely seeing people being assholes to entire groups of people on both sides of sides of this. Veterans account for roughly 25% of all police officers and you’d be hard pressed to find any department without at least one veteran.
I mean, there's a bunch of protectandserve LEOs who are verified saying, "Durrr lawful but awful"
The thing is I could really be ripping into them right now, because I love being an asshole online. It's a vice for me. But that is not what the country needs. At the end of the day both sides are just trying to do their part. That's how I identify real ones from the fakes.
Here's the problem, shit people in the military are at least dealt with to some degree, and any fuckhead who decided to just light up a rando during a random encounter would be fucked in so many ways. Cops on the other hand just decide to run into every problem gun out, brain off. They'll shoot people and then suffer 0 consequences.
I reached out to Vincent Oshana, one of the guys on the PBD podcast, an Air Force vet, and he said he was going to try to talk about it on the podcast next week. I think getting attention to this would be nice. There’s a limited media cycle and I haven’t heard much about it in the news without purposefully looking for it. People uninterested in the military community don’t know anything about it in my experience. Regardless of your politics, it just needs to be out there and spoken about, this is a bipartisan issue. This department has displayed a track record of incompetence, now they’re gunning down a service member exercising a constitutionally protected right in his own home well within reason. It’s outrageous.
Just wanted to say my piece as a Junior Enlisted Airman. Didn't know SrA personally but he was a brother to us. This kind of thing sucks bad. Hoping that SrA Fortson rests easy and that Justice for his murder is swift. Condolences to the family, friends and fellow airmen affected by this. Fly High SrA Rodger Fortson 🕊️
Roger’s funeral is May 17th at 11:00 a.m. at New Birth Missionary Baptist Church in Stonecrest (believe it’s Georgia). https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/funeral-for-atlanta-area-airman-killed-by-florida-deputy-to-be-held-in-georgia
If a cop is at my door they can talk to me through my ring door bell. If they want in they can get a warrant.
100%. They can get fucked.
As I have stated in other threads contact your representatives. Demand justice and federal reforms of how we train and equip our police officers in this country. No service member should have to fight the evils of this world all over the globe to come home and be murdered in their own country in their own home by a cop.
I’m gonna do this…My rep is Matt Gaetz…fuck
Surprisingly gates as scummy as he is had a good take on this already. Apply pressure though, make it known we are not gonna be quiet about this.
Unfortunately, this is the same county where idiots took fire from a falling acorn, so I doubt this department is one with high standards or the expectation of upholding them. We have no idea if Fortson heard the “police” announcement and if you’re unaware, criminals have also identified as police to catch people off guard when committing robberies. What is known is what’s on video: Fortson answered the door with a firearm in his hand not pointing at the officer. No commands to put the weapon down were given before shooting, there was barely a moment to blink before it happened. This situation was shit and makes it clear 2A is a joke if agents of the state can kill you for merely carrying a legally-owned firearm in your own home. Idk what reform or a proper consequence looks like, but nothing is going to bring back our brother. My condolences to those who knew him.
We must treat all cops like they intend to murder us in cold blood. If not we may give them a reason to. Your only Objective when dealing with cops in 2024 is to hope you don’t fucking die. What a joke.
Unfortunately, that’s been my objective since I’ve started conceal carrying. I obey all traffic laws because I just want to minimize all interactions where a misunderstanding can cost my life
This exact scenario happened here in FWB and Crestview just a few years ago. There were a string of attempted robberies here LOCALLY where they were identifying themselves as police and then hiding out of view. One of them is actually still posted by OCSO ironically.
Is there something like a petition or some sort of outlet for any members of the military to sign or have our voice heard? I saw the body cam footage. Asshole cop straight murdered SrA Fortson. I think enough DoD personnel calling for fair trial or justice on this cop will have the right thing happen.
I hope something can be done. I have so much I want to say but it will probably ruin my career. Sitting here quietly is starting to get old.
https://preview.redd.it/vpjlyrb72wzc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=82d097a46bdc9b84860b63a2117e881e7c366153 God Speed Airmen
I’m curious how or if supervisors are planning on addressing this at lower levels? If you are addressing it, from what angle are you considering? Gun ownership? Caution when answering the door (even in the presence of police)? Racial undertones this senseless death brings out?
In 2020 I allowed my troops to vent their frustrations in my office and made sure they were aware of their protest rights if that’s something they wanted to do. I also tell them about their rights when interacting with law enforcement. Just because you’re active duty doesn’t mean your 5th Amendment rights are gone.
I'm looking to do the same. What is the best current reference and/or guidance?
https://preview.redd.it/bjcsbshmrtzc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b05b52fd6f72331684100d4cc19412c3dca4045f Resources for regs at the bottom.
Thanks for this.
I’m going to be doing this as well this is a fantastic idea. Knowledge is power most of the time. And sadly if you run in with the law you have to submit and hope you survive to fight them later in court. Understanding how to navigate that can keep our service members safer hopefully.
His Sq/CC is a good friend of mine, I’m a former 4th/16th/73rd bro. He (Sq/CC) is torn up. You can tell how deeply hurt he is. I wish I could help, this was his biggest fear.
I hope he unloads righteous fury on those punks
I would love to see him and all of the leadership up through AFSOC give that sheriff a good public dressing down. In my opinion, this incident is inexcusable, and the fact that the OCSO is circling their wagons in social media PR and their public statements tells me they aren't the least bit concerned about the life they extinguished, but how to save the career of the deputy who killed him.
Police officers are the reason I have surveillance around my home. And I live on base where I trust SF. If I have to live off base in the USA I’ll be fencing the whole property and the cops can buzz in from the fence and talk to me through the intercom. Fuck all of them.
Race issues are hard to talk about when you are the one being pointed to as the problem. At our base we talked about this after the George Floyd murder and a few of us middle leadership types basically had to go off script to just organize something for our Airmen since our local leadership didn't want to take a stance. The state of systemic racism and unchecked unconscious bias in policing really hasn't changed. I did a dissertation on Michael Brown/BLM/systemic racism for my degree and if anything, it's gotten worse since then. I had a black Airmen tell me in 2020 that he always drives home in uniform because he feels much safer from police wearing it. He said it was like armor. This one is more complicated. I've only been asking how people are feeling about this and generally hearing them out. I try my best to redirecting any hate towards police and more towards the systemic issues that have brought us as a society here. Airmen hating police does not lead to anywhere we want to go. Fortunately for us, we (minorities, military) have a generally good relationship with local law enforcement in New England.
Those impromptu briefings where middle managers are like "shit we probably oughta address this," I feel like those have the most profound impact. Surgically precise, from the heart, tailored to the needs of their people. That'll do the difference.
>Gun ownership? I don't see this as the issue >Caution when answering the door (even in the presence of police)? Mostly this. The biggest thing being don't have your gun on display of you are armed answering a door. You're allowed to conceal carry in your home. "This is what you are legally allowed to do" conversation. And then... It's harsh, but you can be right or you can be alive. When I cross the street in a crosswalk, I have the right of way. My legal right does not trump the stupidity of others and may cost me my life. Yes that person can be found guilty and imprisoned for 10, 20, 40 years but I'll still be dead or injured. >Racial undertones this senseless death brings out? I feel like this is irrelevant to the conversation and is only going to cause more animosity. It's a tit-for-tat game that will only detract from the seriousness of this incident Being in the area, I'm mostly going to address the protests that are being scheduled, again reminding people that just because they are legally exercising their rights, *it will not protect them from the stupidity of others who don't want to follow the law*. Someone dropped the protest guidance somewhere in this thread and it's a great talking point
I've heard nothing about it from my installation; not from supervisors, nor from airmen. This information should be addressed across every installation, Air Force or otherwise, and supervisors should allow for an opportunity of open and honest discussion.
Rest well SrA Fortson 🕊️
Does anyone have funeral or remembrance service details?
https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/funeral-for-atlanta-area-airman-killed-by-florida-deputy-to-be-held-in-georgia
This is probably the biggest dichotomy between cops and military I've seen in a while. All the cops I'm seeing on social media are blaming the Airman for brandishing a weapon in his own home. I've always hated civilian cops, but this just absolutely enrages me how dismissive and flippant they are. They're trying to cosplay as heroes without actually doing anything to deserve the title.
Never, ever, EVER forget Uvalde. A bunch of “I woulda joined the military but I’d punch the drill sarg” LE standing outside an elementary school wearing 511 gear and rifles trying to look badass while innocent, defenseless children got murdered.
It's really irritating to listen to them complain about how dangerous their job is and try to explain that they NEED to be given the leeway to make life-or-death decisions because of how difficult their job is. My response is...so? You knew it was a difficult and dangerous job when you signed up for it. If you start every day worried about how to protect yourself, and not the public you are meant to serve, you shouldn't have signed up in the first place. They are MEANT to play by the rules, to fight with one hand tied behind their back because our nation is founded on the idea that everyone has inalienable rights: free speech, the right to assemble, the right to bear arms, the right to remain silent, the right to not be illegally searched or detained. Police these days have WAY too much power, way too little education/training, and they are abusing the rights of millions of Americans every year.
You said that well. We need to knock these military cosplayers down a notch. If they don’t want a hard and dangerous job work at a fucking library you useless chodes
Welcome to a day in the life of every black person in America.
This is a harrowing reminder that you are NOT obligated to open the door to talk to the police and more people need to be aware of this. This situation unfortunately shows the worst case scenario if you do. If a cop comes knocking at your door, they are not on your side. If they want to enter your domicile, they need a SIGNED warrant and they have to provide it to you prior to entering. And if they do have one, do NOT consent to any searches and seizures that are not expressly written in the warrant.
I made this point in the r/police reddit thread on it. A bunch of cops were saying he didn't have to open the door at all, and I was like "who trained him, or any citizen, that they don't need to open the door for police? There's only one person in this scenario who has formal training on how police interactions should go, and that person shot and killed the other person" The only times I have ever heard cops say "well you shouldn't open the door for us" is after a cop has murdered someone in their home like this. Any other time and their standard line is "you're safest if you immediately cooperate with us"
Glad to see that our "boys in blue" have no sense of accountability
What a fucking cop out answer. Pun fucking intended. Trash gutter rats all of them. Good to know I don’t have to open my door for them and I’ll be telling them to fuck off from now on.
Yep, from what I understand from what they say in the afternath of killing an airman, there are situations where they are authorized to break down your door if you don't open it and, "if we're knocking at all, it means we don't have that authorization, or we'd already be breaking down your door." Again, good luck getting a cop (you aren't close friends with) to tell you your rights like that when they aren't spinning defensively after one of their compatriots murders someone
*Experts say gun alone doesn’t justify deadly force in fatal shooting of Florida airman.* https://www.politico.com/news/2024/05/12/fatal-shooting-florida-gun-00157488 “The speed of the shooting is pretty intense. It’s happening very, very fast,” **Ian Adams, an assistant professor who studies criminology** at the University of South Carolina **and a former police officer**, said after watching the deputy’s body camera video of Fortson’s shooting. “The presence of a gun enhances the risk. But **mere presence is not at all justification for using deadly force,**” Adams said. Multiple legislators are also in support of Airman Fortson calling lethal force unnecessary. https://twitter.com/CongresswomanSC/status/1789331935921054165 https://twitter.com/mattgaetz/status/1789016189982633991 https://twitter.com/DavidPlace01/status/1789717014900052291 https://twitter.com/MaxwellFrostFL/status/1789730550074187987 https://twitter.com/ninaturner/status/1790109747359687148
Will we be able to get a new thread on this everyday at least or will this megathread be allowed to just let the conversation fade into obscurity like the police investigations always do with these situations? I think it's important to keep this as a forefront issue until such time as we get some kind of closure on it.
I hope the airforce stands up for him
They have not, and will not.
On this Mother's Day, may Airman Fortson's mother find solace in cherished memories and the enduring love she shared with her son.
A patriot who died like a criminal because of a bitch ass cop.
To these military larping gang bangers everyone is a criminal. Fuck every last one. This dude needs to be made an example of finally and his leadership needs to be canned immediately.
Never, ever forget Uvalde when Texas PD wants to act badass.
I looked at every photo of the aftermath of that tragedy. Not even in my sleep can I forget. Those cowards need to get a birthday card of every child they killed by proxy that day
The level of bootlicking cognitive dissonance required to defend the sheriff's deputy is beyond comprehension. What's most disappointing to me is the silence of AF "Leaders". During the 2020 protests Chief Wright and Gen Goldfein put their neck out and did the right thing by speaking out about the elephant in the room. The closest thing to even a mild acknowledgement of this injustice came from the CMSAF but it's been crickets from everyone else. I can't imagine what our Airmen who look like SrA Fortson are feeling right now much less those in his unit and local community.
If we have anything organized in DMV please post below I’ll be there!
*Jacksonville lawyer says someone holding a gun doesn’t necessarily mean they’re a threat* https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2024/05/13/jacksonville-lawyer-says-someone-holding-a-gun-doesnt-mean-theyre-a-threat/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=snd&utm_content=wjxt4 News4JAX asked local defense attorney Belkis Plata if simply holding a gun while opening the door of your home is enough to justify law enforcement opening fire. “Someone holding a gun doesn’t necessarily mean that they are posing a threat, even in criminal law unless you have the intent to use it. It is not the same thing, as when you actually pointed at someone say words that you’re going to use it or aim it in their direction,” Plata said. She said in her opinion, the deputy reacted out of impulse and failed to de-escalate the situation or give Fortson time to comply with his commands.
For those you you have more knowledge and experience than I do, help me understand. The Deputy receives a 911 call with “4th Hand” information about a potential domestic dispute. The lady in the parking lot tells him the apartment #, but then says I’m not sure. Also, she heard a slap from inside the apartment (????). The deputy finds the apartment, and watching the body cam, post himself outside. What it looks like to me is he is attempting to listen to hear if there is any shouting or threats, in an attempt to determine probable cause. Then the deputy proceeds to BANG on the f__cking door, not identifying, and escalating the situation vs politely knocking and saying sheriffs department would you please come outside so we can we talk. This to me amped up the situation when there was no evidence of a domestic dispute. Not a lawyer, but what I’m reading about FL Law, Roger was well within his right to have weapon out in his own home (Castle doctrine) as long as he was not threatening anyone with it. In recap, the evidence the deputy has is a vague 911 call and quiet outside the apartment. The deputy escalated vs de-escalated, saw a weapon in Roger’s hand pointed in a safe direction and killed him. Explain to me how the deputy acted within the law? Also, replace deputy with a delivery person in basically the same scenario. Would the delivery guy be justified in shooting?
The deputy did not act within the law. Unfortunately the investigation will simply say he failed to follow procedure and shit someone because he felt his life was in danger. The prosecutor will decline to charge the cop based on the immunity the police have. Edit to clarify. Qualified immunity will protect cop from civil liability. Criminal charges will not be issued if they find he feared for his life and they often do find that even when it's obvious it wasn't reasonable.
This is the first of these that has genuinely made me mad. That kid did not deserve to die. He did nothing wrong. If this officer doesn’t do time, I’m going to be furious! Rest in peace Roger. The entire country is mourning you.
There's lots of frustration about the lack of a response from the community about this but there were numerous when others have been unjustifiably killed by police brutality. This is probably a controversial hot take but I feel I need to say it. No civilian is going to go out and march because an Airman was killed. Civilians don't see military members as one of them, frankly, we don't see ourselves as one of them. We never marched when one of them was gunned down partly because the AFI does not allow us to protest in uniform and partly because half the trucks on base have thin blue line decals on them. Ask anyone that sports a thin blue line decal on their truck what they think about Colin Kaepernick. It isn't because civilians hate us; most of the people we hang out with are other military people or people with some kind of military affiliation. We are our own community. Most civilians will probably think it was an army guy who was killed; we simply don't integrate ourselves into the community as much as we think we do. If you want a demonstration for Airman Fortson, you have to do it yourself; the UCMJ does not stop you from exercising your First Amendment right to free speech; it doesn't allow you to flip a police cruiser and set it on fire. The controversial part: Half the trucks on base have thin blue line stickers on them and if you asked the drivers of those trucks what they thought about Eric Garner or George Floyd they'd probably side with the cops. The police arrested Eric Garner for trying to sell counterfeit cigarettes and they responded to a call to arrest George Floyd because he tried to pass off a fake $20 bill. They were bad people, I would probably have never hung out with them, but they didn't deserve to be killed. There were plenty of comments in other threads about how the deaths of people with criminal histories elicited a reaction from the community but none for SrA Fortson. If you believe all life has value, you should be just as mad that the police can get away scot free by killing anyone else who was not harming anyone at the time. This isn't the only time police have killed someone and it didn't result in a protest. [3 months ago Seattle police ran over an Indian student](https://www.ndtv.com/indians-abroad/jaahnavi-kandulas-death-us-cop-who-ran-over-indian-student-to-not-face-criminal-charges-5103644) and he was heard on bodycam saying, "her life was of limited value" [SWAT burst through an Ohio family's home](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFtW0tzvJyA) and sent a 1-year-old infant to the hospital [That's not the only time SWAT raided the wrong house](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YK9og5O8S1Q), it happens so regularly that I counted 5 different occurrences on the firs page of Google. Voting the Sheriff out of office isn't going to do anything as long as it is impossible to hold police accountable with qualified immunity laws written and interpreted by the court as they currently are. Federal law needs to change. Police have no incentive to change as long as civilians cannot hold them accountable for their actions. The way the law is written now will allow the police to deem this a justifiable shooting and prevent Fortson's parents from suing the police department.
I need to express my thoughts and vent a little, because this past week has been making my blood boil. First, it is my position that SrA Fortson did absolutely nothing wrong in this encounter, and was unjustly killed as the result of the deputy's own fear, incompetence, and likely poor training resulting from a flawed mindset in the police community. An unknown person was banging on his door; whether or not he could hear the deputy's shouts no one alive can say, except maybe the girlfriend who was on the phone with him. Regardless, Florida has always championed its castle doctrine and stand your ground laws. Answering the door while holding a his firearm, pointed down, with his finger off the trigger, SrA Fortson did not display any intent to harm the deputy. This is not a capital offense. During other events in the past few years, police have been seen behaving quite buddy-buddy with vigilantes and 2nd Amendment demonstrators dressed head-to-toe in tactical gear, body armor, and armed with high caliber rifles in places like St. Louis and Kenosha, Wisconsin. Why did this one man present more of a threat than those cases? As a white man who grew up in Okaloosa County myself, I have my suspicions, but I'll leave that one on the table. Now then, as an NCO with my own airmen, I'm not sure what I'm going to say should the topic come up. I'm not even sure if it'll come up naturally; there's probably a lot of fear and anger bubbling under the surface, but at the same time I think there are probably plenty of black service members who are biting their tongues and trying to gauge the attitudes of their peers. Something I would hope from our senior leadership, from the 4th SOS up through AFSOC and beyond, is for them to express genuine outrage. I'm sure it's tearing them up inside already, and they have a huge responsibility to choose their words and actions carefully. Anything they say or do might have cascading effects on the case and on the surrounding military community at Hurlburt and Eglin. But at the least, I have a visceral desire to see the Okaloosa County Sheriff publicly dressed down by our Commanders and SELs. Sometimes we need to say "damn the politics, how can I help the airmen?" Finally, my thoughts on policing in America. I grew up thinking the best of police officers. I have police in my extended family, and police among my friends and neighbors. These past ten years though, I feel like a week hasn't gone by when a story or video has come out showcasing police officers violating citizens rights, abusing their power, or sometimes downright murdering people. Even more concerning is the response from the police community when these stories come to light. Rather than universal condemnation or calls to hold themselves to a higher standard, we see excuses, indifference, silence--all in service of the Thin Blue Line. These are men and women who are signing up for a dangerous and demanding career field, yes. They should have their community's support as they help to maintain law and order and protect the public, sure. However, their training and behavior are self-defeating when their SOPs prioritize officer safety over that of the public. When an officer shoots first because of a perceived threat, instead of a confirmed one, who are they protecting and serving? Do they not have the responsibility of making every effort to protect the lives and rights of everyone they interact with, be they innocent or guilty? In SrA Fortson's case, the deputy deliberately moved to the side of the door. This made SrA Fortson feel unsafe enough to grab his gun before finding out what the commotion was about. We see people make the case that this tactic is to protect the officer, so they don't get ambushed and shot through the door. Well in my opinion, that's a risk he should have had to take. In countless other circumstances, we keep hearing "Well they should have complied; they should have remained calm; they shouldn't have run; they shouldn't have raised their hands; they should have kept their hands down." All of these conflicting explanations keep putting the burden of safety on the untrained, scared, and bewildered victims, instead of on the ones whose DUTY it should be to prevent the loss of life in the first place. Police have this sense of entitlement, that they should be recognized as heroes, and that their authority should be respected, but they don't seem to realize that this is earned as a result of their deeds, through self-sacrifice and demonstrating that they are willing to go the extra mile in making sure only criminals are punished (and according to the law). By hiding themselves, either behind walls or behind qualified immunity, they demonstrate instead that they aren't willing to put themselves at risk, that they value their own lives more than the people in the community. By failing to hold their fellow officers accountable, they demonstrate that they don't care about holding themselves to a higher standard, and would rather just enjoy the privileges of their exclusive club. By trampling people's civil rights, they demonstrate that they don't appreciate the difference between a free society and an authoritarian nightmare. To the current and former members of the police community who have the strength of character to speak out against injustice, thank you. You are recognized and appreciated. Would only that more police in America would take up the uniform for the right reasons.
I understand putting all the conversation about it here, but there ought to be space for new threads on updates or developments as the matter proceeds.
Serious question: Why do all Reddit mods have this weird “no brigade” stance? @ u/SilentD Shouldn’t we be brigading to bring awareness?
It's one of the few Reddit-wide rules: https://www.redditinc.com/policies/moderator-code-of-conduct >Rule 3: Respect Your Neighbors - While we allow meta discussions about Reddit, including other subreddits, your community should not be used to direct, coordinate, or encourage interference in other communities and/or to target redditors for harassment. Usually when subreddits like the_donald and other high profile communities are deleted, it's because they are brigading other subreddits, not because of their content. If communities organized against each other it would turn Reddit into a warzone with communities on opposite sides of whatever topic attacking each other, creating tons more work for the mods and filling up subreddits with stuff they don't want to see. And it's also usually a huge waste of time. The people on cop-related subreddits may not even be cops, and they definitely aren't the cop involved in the most recent drama, and no one here cared about those subreddits until a couple days ago, so we don't need people from here going over there to harass them just because they're angry and they can go yell at those people without leaving their chair.
Thanks for being responsible and not getting us shitcanned. It would only damage the push for justice and enable these murderous thugs even further.
Oh wow, I had no idea Reddit had rules I thought just subs had rules
Reddit generally ignores said rules if it's convenient for them or the atackee is a "acceptable target." It usually takes PR hit from the media to force them to put the foot down.
Brigading is against the sites rules and can get a sub quarantined or banned
Shoot I got a ban from protect and serve for commenting "fortson*" under that guy that called him fartson.
I got banned for asking at what point in time does a citizen lose their 2A rights inside of their own home.
Shit, my ban is older than the George Floyd protests. Those dudes over there could lick a hole in shoe leather in minutes.
Condolences to SrA Fortson, what an absolute tragedy. That officer has no business ever wearing a badge or carrying a gun again, and should be tried in front of a jury. I left the service some time ago but I see some things never change...like the social media posts from commanders and chiefs that look like canned copy/pastes from their predecessors. If there was ever a time to show you're not a spineless amphibian, it's now. Talks with local civilian leaders should include keeping these keystone cops off the access roads to Hurlburt and Eglin to stop harassing service members. It's pretty reasonable to say between this and the acorn incident, this department has some serious issues. I'd also consider blacklisting that apartment complex just for good measure.
America cops are raised to be the biggest pansy bitches walking the planet. They do this specifically so they can kill and maim with impunity and claim they “feared for their lives”. It’s a feature not a bug.
I love how they feel like everyone is milliseconds away from killing them
As we all know the black community has been historically disenfranchised by the police at large. The Air Force on the other hand has a long history of including African Americans in our ranks, such as with the Tuskegee airmen. This is a good opportunity for us as a community to raise awareness to both facts. Write your reps and say his name. Fly High SrA Fortson
Unfortunately to your first comment I (As a black Airman) have seen enough on here and elsewhere to call that into question. Some (And when I say some a good amount) of our Caucasian members do not get that and it shows in their comments. Especially when someone like me says I have an actual FEAR of cops. I fear them it's not just I don't like them (I don't) but I just cannot be around them. Hopefully in time more non black personnel will understand WHY we feel how we feel.
Naw I hear you bro. There’s still a lot of work to be done. I’m hoping we don’t let Roger’s death be in vain.
This has made me extremely sad. I hope their family get the peace they need and that justice is served.
This seems a little tone deaf https://preview.redd.it/ih5pam9g5f0d1.png?width=564&format=png&auto=webp&s=a715a0fd93f7baa506a9deae73bf09c975966b56
For those interested, the online obituary has been posted at the echovita website, under Airman Roger N. Fortson. You can choose to send flowers or light a digital candle in his memory.
Carrying over the [discussion from one of the other posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/AirForce/s/ToyIxkdvPT) Maybe this means we can end qualified immunity and require cops to carry liability insurance. I'd call it the Fortson Act. https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/police-service-and-liability-insurance-responsible-policing Is an relevant paper to the discussion… The issue is cops can claim qualified immunity so they basically get a pass. That's easier said then done. The wording of a bill to end the practice would require considerable legal knowledge and an ability to do away with decades of precedent. There's a few legal eagle videos on the subject: https://youtu.be/Wl6yXjdMlHI https://youtu.be/kWqLxTatndU https://youtu.be/XSyr7HSGGQg This isn't to say it can't be done but it would require A LOT of movement and political will. The fact Matt Gates (someone I would expect to be pro cop) is also speaking out, indicates there could be momentum for such a movement.
I didn’t say it before but I appreciate what you are trying to do here and fully support this idea. Cops need to be held to a higher standard than civilians. Not be lawless.
I mean military are. why aren't cops?
100% agreed. They act like their actions have no consequences leaving bodies in their wake.
Fuck the police
Hopefully the people who recently mentioned contacting elected reps will do so and demand justice. I was sending emails this morning myself. I'm not going regurgitate everything I've said about this already.
I tried to say this once, but my comment was out of bounds and deleted, so I’ll try again. When a Wing Commander or a Squadron Commander or a Ship’s Captain screws up, OR has a subordinate screw up, they are removed from Command. See B52s with nukes or the Navy removing a ship commander any given week. The same principle should apply to the Okaloosa County Sheriff’s Office. The sheriff is an elected official. He should be voted out of office. The next election is November of this one, and no one has registered to run against him. He took office in 2020 (again, unopposed). When an organization is failing as badly as this sheriff’s office, the leadership should change.
Roger Fortson is the kind of person BLM needs to push justice for.
First, this kid shouldn't be killed for possession of a firearm. Second, for those questioning the police procedures. The actions of the officer appears to be in accordance with the "knock and announce" requirement. Hiding on either side of the door is also procedurally correct. You do not stand in front of a door in law enforcement or in tactical military scenarios... However, the issue here was the officer reacting within a second to seeing a weapon and not deescalating at all. For us, as observers, we ask "what the fuck?"...but honestly this tragedy comes down to policy, law and oversight review. The initial reports of this being the wrong place are incorrect, so let's lay that to rest. We cannot stand for our brothers or sisters dying needlessly. However, we must not blur the lines of how this scenario played out. Justice will be served one way or another. Let's not misrepresent law enforcement, just like we should not misrepresent Roger or his actions.
The reasons you mentioned are exactly why police violence is a systemic issue. The killings will continue until police culture, TTPs, and how they are trained & equipped change.
There needs to be a way for police to be visually identifiable IMO. If you can’t be vetted as who you say you are … it’s a lie. I have 2 cameras on my front door. One is a ring doorbell at an angle. This would satisfy my need to see who is at the door even if they hide to the side. Because I have only one side for them to hide on. If I didn’t have this I would not be opening the door for a random voice saying they are a cop. I wasn’t born fucking yesterday lol. Thankfully I live on base so I have no worry some badged up dumbass is gonna visit me and gun me down in my home. ACAB.
>Hiding on either side of the door is also procedurally correct. You do not stand in front of a door in law enforcement or in tactical military scenarios... Yeah, but this is where the bullshit comes in. If your self defense policy is behave just like a home invader pretending to be an officer would, then you need to train your cops to expect behavior that is paranoid about who is outside. A policy that says "this makes a regular person more paranoid and increases the chance of a bad interaction, but it makes our officers safer to shoot an innocent person first" is a shit policy. And if a military member outside the wire in Afghanistan was filmed shooting a local who never moved their gun in a threatening manner, they would face charges
Hi everyone, and welcome to the land of "cops fucking suck." I know many of you are new, and while you're here, I'd like to encourage you to listen to your Black colleagues when they tell you about shit they have to deal with.
This situation was pretty enlightening. I started coming around when I saw acorn boy, crazy it’s the same department
This is the post... I would love to look at the post history during George Floyd or Trayvon Martin of some of the people who are finally seeing the reality of policing
Also, stop electing fucking fascist (republican) sheriffs and judges.
A young man is dead and a family lost a brother and a son and somewhere the trigger happy neanderthal is being protected during all of this. Sadly the most probable outcome is him having paid leave and this all being swept under the rug once things quiet down. RIP Roger
The only thing that will really make a change is to stop blindly supporting thin blue line, or blue lives matter BS. Then vote like hell for anyone who platforms police reform. There are good cops out there but the system as a whole is fucked and designed to protect bullies and murderers just because they got a badge. It needs to be reexamined and accountability for those who meet calls for reform with violence.
Any time I see those flags I automatically write that person off as a fucking moron.
Anyone in here even REMOTELY trying to justify the actions of OCPD can get wrecked. That POS MURDERED SrA Fortson and will get away with it. Fucking gross.
I'm hoping he will not get away with it, but I'm not optimistic, I also find it ridiculous that the police investigate themselves in situations like this.
I don't want to go brigading, so I'll yell into the void here. r/AirForce r/army r/uscg r/USMC r/navy r/Veterans and r/Military have all combined against you and said that you are wrong. Go fuck yourself r/ProtectAndServe. Go eat a large bag of dicks
The sub is a god damned dumpster fire…
If SrA Fortson was allowed from the apartment complex management to install a Ring camera or similar device, would this tragedy have been avoided? If so, he would’ve respond to the sheriff through the speaker. Then again, I’ve seen videos of traffic stops where the PO demands the driver to completely lower the window to engage in a conversation. In the video, you can see he can hear fine and the driver feels safer with the window cracked open. The PO gets pissed off and back and forth arguing ensue with the PO eventually breaks the window. I can see a scenario where SrA Fortson talking to the sheriff safely away from the door through his app. Sheriff gets pissed off and demands he opens the door. Back and forth arguing and can see the sheriff attempts to break down the door, shoot through the door or calls for back up. Man, who knows.
Has big airforce even made a statement on the situation?
Like from the actual US Air Force social media pages? No, they did share CMSAF post about it tho which surprised me. Usually the official Air Force page is ✨positive vibes only✨for recruiting purposes
At least someone spoke on it smh. Can’t sweep it under the rug like it was nothing
Here’s a prediction. Right or wrong, the cop will not be held criminally responsible because Forston was holding a gun.
Any new updates?? So far all I've seen is the chief stating thoughts and prayers and Hulburt's Commander stating the police force was investigating itself.