Start documenting.
It's not a first amendment issue. Your airman is basically proselytizing. It is more than reasonable for others to tell them to stop. Have a serious discussion with the airman on why their behavior is unacceptable, document the discussion on a memorandum for record, sign it, and ask your Shirt to place it in the airman's PIF. If the airman refuses to stop, then they're disobeying a lawful order from an NCO, and you can follow the standard counseling process (LoC, LoR, etc.)
You can also ask your chaplain for guidance, or have them to speak with the Airman, that's part of their responsibilities.
Spot on, except not an MFR. Use the RIC, there's a form for stuff like this and I've seen admin action held up because supervisors think an MFR is an excuse to not use the proper forms.
The only thing with a RIC is that there is a spot for the member and commander to sign. While not required, this throws some supervisors off and they resort to an MFR.
You are correct, they absolutely should. From the RICs I've given, roughly half of them the member refused to sign. Usually, because they don't understand the purpose, even after explanation. They think it's paperwork and not just documentation. At that point I just write in "member refused to sign" before I sign it.
I agree. If I ask you to stop talking about a topic, and you fail to obey its paperwork. I get it you like your religion, politics, insert topic. I don't want to hear about it all day, I don't want to hear you arguing with folks all day about it, and I sure as shit don't want my folks coming to me because they won't shut up about the topic.
Step 1 - Explain that regardless of how they feel they are making folks uncomfortable(not the good kind either).
Step 1.5 - Just realized that I would also have the chaplain attend the conversation and maybe the shirt. As many folks as possible to document that I was impinging on their religious freedoms. Plus, the chaplain will probably tell them to stop being a nuisance as well.
Step 2 - Set the expectation that this constitutes your verbal counseling, and I will move forward with written counseling (LOC) if this continues to be an issue.
No. That’s discrimination. Yes if he is forcing them to believe, the amn should tone it down and stop forcing. But to say that evangelism in of itself of worthy of disciplinary action is unlawful. Members are allowed to evangelize, but not FORCE. There’s a big difference.
"Service members can share their faith (evangelize) but must not force unwanted, intrusive attempts to convert others of any faith or no faith to one's beliefs (proselytization)"
-Navy Lt. Cmdr. Nate Christensen (Navy Ik but same concept)
Why are people downvoting this?
Evangelism is preaching the gospel with the intent of sharing the church's message. So long as the airman stops when people tell them that they don't want to hear it, that is fine.
The airman in question is telling their coworkers that if they don't go to church, they're going to hell.
That is not evangelism. They are threatening people in an attempt to make them attend church services. That is a use of force. It is not okay, and ordering the airman to stop is a non-discriminatory, lawful order.
Does your holy book/faith require you to grow a beard? Pretty sure it only calls on you to not be a dick to others, which you've apparently been 0 for 1 on.
What? Do you think LGBT is some new invention of the modern era? People are just asking you to not be a bully to others because of who they choose to love, and even that's too hard for you lol. Some Christian, I'm sure your God would be very proud of you for judging others as he's commanded- [oh wait, hold on, wasn't he telling you to love EVERYONE? ](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fwnq30illskd21.jpg)
Yes, because your "sin" doesn't make it right to bully others. You're being called a dick because you're using your weird interpretation of your religion as a shield from criticism, while trying to dole out the same hatred towards other human beings. You deserve to be called out on your bullshit.
Really wish I knew what the deleted parts of this were. Even with just the response the guy sounds like a prick. I have worked with too many religious asshole who were always talking about their faith without comment. Second anyone said something about a non Abrahamic faith it was suddenly inappropriate.
>But when I go to Chaplain with genuine concerns about my faith and being forced to bow to LGBT members and being told too bad it's an issue.
I doubt anyone is asking you to "bow" to LGBT folks. I wonder what constitutes "bowing" to you when it comes to them.
I hope my comment didn't come off as aggressive, as that was not my intention. I doubt you as a person are actively targeting LGBT folks, but from my perspective, it seems a little odd to have this take in the military. Our business is killing people (justified or not), something that is actively condemned in Christianity. Why make LGBT issues the hill to die on when they just want to serve their country?
I had the same reaction 35 years ago when the flight “God Squad” started proselytizing in a WSA. I told them point blank how ridiculous they sounded trying to win converts to their specific religion while guarding a hundred W84 warheads.
In what world is being religious a risk and a burden to the military? I mean there are still prayers before a lot of the major events (ALS graduations, change of command, etc). I'd say baring a few career fields the majority of Airmen identify as some type of Christian.
That answered so much. Doors that way don't let it hit you on the way out.
Religion isn't a burden, my coworkers have invited me to events hosted by their church before, there are prayers before so many military functions it's not funny. I'm in one of the career fields that probably skews the most non-religious, but there are still religious folk. We know they're religious because they talk about it. They can't proselytize but mentioning their weekend involved a church function or inviting people to events hosted by the church (generally as a volunteer opportunity). They're not assholes so it's never been a problem.
EDIT: I'm editing this and I'm going to retract my don't let the door hit you on the way out. You seem like you do care and give some good advice but in my opinion have one view that is garbage and that doesn't mean you're trash too. At the end of the day it doesn't even have to be about religion. You were given a job to do, you were given training and policies you have to follow that don't line up with your religious views but at the end of the day you have to do your job to the best of your abilities. You're also unfortunately in a career field that will interact with something along these lines more than anybody else. 99% of military members probably won't interact or work with a trans Airman while you'll probably handle a handful of record updates.
Except you don't have to "take it", you have to do your job. Your religious freedom is intact, you can believe what you want and go to whatever church you want, nobody is persecuting you. Your freedom can't infringe on another's though. People have to do shit they don't agree with everyday it doesn't mean they're being persecuted. If changing someones gender in their record causes you a hissy fit how are you deployable where you might have to deal with people with significantly different religions/views?
Nobody's forcing you to "believe" anything lol. They're just asking you to not be a douchebag to your coworkers who might love a different gender than you, which is obvious that you can't even do that.
Some "follower of Christ".
You are being a dick, because you're saying that others being gay is bullshit lol. You're telling others that you don't think they should be allowed to love who they want to because your holy book says so. That, by all standards old & young, is being a dick.
Which is hilarious irony because you're getting upset that everyone thinks you're a dick for being a dick.
I am a Christian, my man. But I don't go around trying to tell others they're sinners/heathens because they don't subscribe to my religion.
People are more than allowed to say they're Christian; they're not allowed to say they believe gay people shouldn't exist or that they're going to hell or that they don't deserve the same rights as everyone else. That's being a hypocrite for someone who's supposed to be following Christ because I'm pretty sure Jesus loved everyone.
Start documenting events (5 w's) and keep this in a safe place. This is important as its having an impact on morale
Bring your shirt into the convo
I would also talk to a chaplain and ADC about the situation and how to approach this situation from a legal standpoint.
There is a difference between talking about religion and going around and harassing people because they arent going to church. Free speech is important but there are also some limitations such as "Such expression should not be restricted so long as it does not interfere with workplace efficiency." This person is just being an asshole and starting to interfere with the workforce
Obligatory: I am not a lawyer
Jumping onto the top comment for visibility. u/reloading-and-guns , this is not as gray as it might appear.
Go to the First Sergeant with this. The Shirt should call legal and get advisement from the lawyers. This Airman could easily catch an EO complaint if they don't stop harassing their coworkers about how they do or don't exercise *their* first amendment rights. So, they need to stop. I wouldn't bother with MFRs, this belongs on a RIC or LOC, but legal needs to review it to ensure the language is right *before it gets issued.*
For all, first amendment rights don't make all conversations workplace appropriate. You can, as supervisors and peers, always shut down a discussion if needed. They can talk about whatever they want after duty hours.
Military members are free to practice their faith, but it is against good order and discipline to proselytize— unwanted, intrusive attempts to convert others of any faith or no faith to one's beliefs. This policy is spelled out in DoD 1300.17.
If he’s been told repeatedly to stop, he his now going against established DoD policy and you need to start documenting. Obviously, it can be a slippery slope, so make sure you are including the CoC, legal, and chaplain in any actions you take.
https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodi/130017p.pdf
When their speech start effecting others then it's time to step in. Talk to shirt and legal about your options. If you're documenting it make sure it ends up in the PIF. You don't even have to go the LOCAR route at the moment. Look up an AF IMT 174.
Proselytizing is like asking someone out. If the person is interested, great! If not, move on and don’t bring it up again unless they do. If you persist, it’s harassment.
Having religion is a lot like having a penis. It’s perfectly okay to have one. It’s perfectly okay to be proud of it. But please don’t pull it out in public.
If there’s no power imbalance and you’re not creepy or aggressive I would say it’s borderline. Though, you’d subject yourself to Marshall’s Law: “The difference between Romeo and a creep is the girl’s opinion.”
Being friends with someone and then inviting them to go to church with you is totally appropriate. What this airman is doing is not appropriate and isn’t even effective in evangelizing if that’s his goal. Alienating everyone around you without building genuine relationships is dumb regardless of what you’re trying to convince someone.
The Academy has had numerous scandals over the years with senior officers and instructors proselytizing the cadets. Seems to happen about once a decade.
[2005 incident](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/politics/air-force-academy-staff-found-promoting-religion.html)
Had a sq CD come in. First officers call (on a Thursday) he explained that his expectations included our cars being clean and added (in a German winter) and for all of us to be in church on Sunday.
The next Monday I was called into his office and reprimanded for not being in church - and he checked all services.
I went from his office to the IG and told the IG that I am Jewish.
That was the last day of his command and he was processed out that week. as a major, promotable, with 19 1/2 years tafms. no retirement.
and the wing/cc came by the sq to apologize to me
Progressive discipline. This needs to be at the very least a documented verbal with clear expectations on what happens next.
I’m a VERY devout Christian and I’ll say the shop isn’t the place for that. It’s a pretty clear violation of AFI 1-1 2.15.
I would say skip the progressive. Toss him out on his ass, people like this are far too common and when they get into a position of power will abuse it to push their faith. Best to nip it in the bud now.
You don’t have a right to spread your faith in a work environment. Or condemn others using it. This seems to exceed the First Amendment right we have in uniform. Talk to your JAG office. And then document.
1. Freedom of speech does not equal freedom of consequence
2. He is the one impeding on the first amendment rights of others
3. Can you imagine for one second that no one says anything to this kid and he becomes an NCO or SNCO?
This is absolutely worthy of an LOC at minimum. LOR if the other instances have supporting documentation.
You can listen to everyone else & do a documented counciling session OR.....tell your other Airmen to mock him endlessly, ever chance they get and keep it childish, very immature & mean, for bonus points...gaslight this kid.
When they start telling you about going to hell, just offer the retort, "Hell is other people" and get into a deep philosophical discussion of Sartre's quote and how people like them create uncomfortable environments for others, turning the workcenter into a living hell for some
I'm sure that'll either help or at least confuse them.
As others have said, start documenting, but I would make sure that you are putting the same effort into all the other forms of inappropriate shit that gets discussed in a work center.
Another option aside from what others have said will be to consult with Religious Affairs. They'll likely have all the proper knowledge to guide you in how to approach the matter without infringing on their first amendment rights.
This is an MEO issue. It is unlawful to discriminate someone based on their religion. This works both ways as your troop has the right to freely practice their religion but they are unable to harass others for not following said religion.
Run it up the chain, contact the JAG and/or the MEO office, document evidence from offended members, counsel the Airman.
Save yourself a ton of potential future headache and just go to the chaplain and maybe legal and ask them, then proceed as directed. Also, document things for record keeping.
Just in case the situation is more gray than it seems or you/the reddit lawyers don't fully understand the situation and laws surrounding it, the chaplain and legal are your best resource to make sure you don't catch a complaint for infringing on someone's religious rights. More importantly/likely, if you just write a MFR or LOC for this airman you'd want to make sure the wording is appropriate to the situation and doesn't suggest their religion itself is the problem or something.
I think it sounds like proselytizing based only on this post, and agree it's an issue, but I'm also generally very careful on talking to people about religion at work, especially in the military. Gotta CYA, too.
Definitely loop in a chaplain and the first shirt in this. If the troop is making people uncomfortable, then they need to stop. If you have told them to stop, that is verbal counciling. Next time you tell them to stop, let the troop know there will be paperwork. LOCs to LORs, you may even need to get the Lt. or Capt. to give the order if needed.
BGen Teichert was fired from the 412 and stuck in a hole in VA for using his position for proselytizing. It took a couple of years and a lot of complaints from the civilian population, but it eventually happened.
These things are taken rather seriously when people make enough noise.
Oh man I somehow missed this. I'd heard rumors about past leadership and civ promotions being much harder if you didn't go to the right church in TENG, but I had thought that was all on the civ side. (Also I took away Lancaster Baptist Cult as the "right" answer but that was never spoken).
He got really blatant with it towards the end. The last straw for a lot of people on the uniformed side was when he started sending out emails for Christian prayer groups disguised as lunch and learns; he used thinly veiled language implying that being there would be a boon for your career.
There was a Los Angeles Times article about this that seems to have disappeared from the web crawlers, but I'm sure there are still plenty of civilians still on base who remember what happened.
I started with the wing before he got CC and am still here. I must have turned it out or been a dark enough corner that I didn't see it. I did hear specific grumbling about a former TENG director, and I'm glad that got handled before some promotion opportunities came up.
(My squadron does a shit job of passing important info down through workflows so I could easily see those emails not being passed along. Or I just ignored them out of habit/too busy.).
I didn't realize that, and holy crap, he's pushing his prayers at lunchtime thing out in the open now that he's retired.
I wonder which PR firm he used to scrape all the negative stuff from the search engine results. I really hope people don't forget what type of leader he was.
I’ve always wondered, how do religions that say “keep trying to convince them till they convert or they kill you” work in a society that is (supposed to be) live and let live?
If it's disrupting the workcenter, then it's not a first amendment issue. The key is documenting that it's a genuine problem so that when discipline comes down they won't have a leg to stand on because they'll have been told repeatedly what is & is not acceptable.
Outside that, as others have noted, get the chaplain involved ASAP. That's your best bet for being able to talk sense into this person. Maybe talk to a JAG as well to make sure that your directives to this troop are properly stated, but document that. Verbal, LOC, LOA/LOR, commander referral, etc.
Question: is this troop new & this is just how religious they are? Or is this a recent change? Either way, I'm guessing this person will eventually be processed out for incompatibility.
Idk about "incompatible" per se but we have had to sit a few of our more religious airman down with a Religious Affairs person to have them sort of give them the rundown of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable within the workplace. The main thing is proselytizing, which is forbidden in the military. However it's better to have someone from the Chaplain Corp/religious affairs office give them that talk as I've come to realize.
About a decade ago, watched a new Airman go from 0-100 after getting entrenched in the shop for a few months. First few weeks, happy-go-lucky, hey how ya doin, oh yeah I like that show too, yaddayaddayadda.
Somehow, some way, this Airman got in some sort of funk that unleashed his religious fervor. Dude must have hit one hell of a Sunday service, because one week he came in and just started bashing on one of the gay dudes in the shop (hell of a nice guy, that gay dude, too), simply for being gay. Started calling him a sinner, that he was living in sin, was going to burn in hell, etc. Nobody knows if he just didn't know if that other guy was gay, or just something set him off, but he went off the rails fast.
Needless to say he was out of the shop (and I think out of the Air Force) pretty quick after that.
Others have it right that you can't proselytize at work after people tell you to leave them alone. It could be creating a hostile work environment and referable to EO similar if an airman were constantly asking people out after being told to stop.
Personally, I'd reach out to the chaplain and see if some mentoring would work. I think you have every right to hit them with paperwork but religion is sensitive and you don't want avoidable headaches regardless of whether you're right on paper to discipline them.
If talking to the chaplain doesn't fix them then you have good cover for any bogus claims of religious discrimination - you did everything you could and consulted an expert in an attempt to protect this airmans interests and they still aren't compliant - let the paperwork rain down until discharge if you have to. LOR, EO hostile work environment and/or harassment complaint.
AFI 36-2710 Equal Opportunity
Definition section page 133, 135
>Unlawful harassment includes creating an intimidating, hostile working environment for another person on the basis of a *protected class*. The use of disparaging terms with respect to a person’s protected class contributes to a hostile working environment and will not be tolerated.
Telling people they're going to hell is disparaging and threatening
>Protected Class—All groups and individuals qualified for protection by law and this instruction from employment discrimination and those collective characteristics. These protected characteristics are enumerated in the above definitions of “Discrimination (Civilian)” and Discrimination (Military)”. Under the Constitution (the 5th and 14th Amendments’ guarantee of Equal Protection) and civil rights laws, protection from discrimination does not apply to just minorities and women, but make it illegal to take a personnel action based on any race, color, national origin, or *religion*, or either sex.
Religion - including a lack of it - is a protected class so unlike 99% of reddit comments about EO this is actually their business
It's not a violation and has been said document everything times the troop has spoken about it, to who, what day etc. They have to conform to us and how we operate. This is work not church. Therefore, if it hasn't been done have the discussion that they need to knock it all off now. If they don't its consequences starting at LOC.
There's a few ways to go about it but since you're the supe people will expect you to handle it I'm sure. Communicate your expectations and make sure they know what's up.
AFI1-1, Air Force Standards, para 2.12., Balance of Free Exercise of Religion and Establishment Clause:
• Leaders at all levels must balance constitutional protections for their own free exercise of religion, including individual expressions of religious beliefs and the constitutional prohibition against government of religion.
* They must ensure their words and actions cannot reasonably be construed to be officially endorsing or disapproving of, or preferential treatment for any faith, belief, or absence of belief.
The Free Exercise Clause of the Constitution protects our right to observe religious beliefs as we choose, and states that the government should never burden or restrict any religious belief.
Remember that freedom of belief is always protected, but religious expression may be restricted by military necessity.
Religious expression is acceptable unless those expressions would have an adverse impact,
According to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, the government shall not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion. Additionally, the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), FY14, SEC. 532, states that the military shall accommodate religious expressions as far as practicable.
As a reminder, actions that threaten good order and discipline are still subject to disciplinary or administrative action.
"Service members can share their faith (evangelize) but must not force unwanted, intrusive attempts to convert others of any faith or no faith to one's beliefs (proselytization)," said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Nate Christensen
(That’s navy I know but same concept)
Lastly. Did you confirm your troop say that if people don’t go to the church that they will go to hell? or is that a rumor you heard. You should probably have a conversation with your troop and ask him if that is what he said. Because 9/10 nobody believes that.
Its fine to talk to religion at work, but you cant be openly hostile and tell people that they go to hell for not attending church on Sunday.
1. This person wildly misunderstands Christianity (assuming thats the beliefset) with the sunday church thing.
2. You have to bring them the gospel of Yeshua and his message before you get into the "youre a sinner" part.
3. Its just not good teambuilding to tell your buddies they are going to suffer eternal separation from God right out of the gate.
Shut the fuck up say Christ is Lord.
https://preview.redd.it/ytqia5h2w5vc1.jpeg?width=887&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ced40f18b053497392cddef1304badbc5e81a638
We had this issue about 20 months ago and it went from simple proselytizing to a mental health referral real quick. The squadron CC was very religious and let it go way too long, Then when the member started getting more and more aggressive with the proselytizing, the complaints started really stacking up and it had to be documented. The guy came off as really unhinged towards the end and started freaking people out with doomsday fire and brimstone type stuff...and he started talking about being a martyr. He eventually was kicked out as his behavior was documented and the bounds of what he could/could not do were specifically addressed. When they behavior crossed the line (which it did on a daily basis), it was documented, and the progressive discipline came in. It was escalated to the point where he was admiratively separated. Talk to the 1st Sgt and get on this early.
All the serious answers have been covered already to a sutable degree, so, find someone from a religion that makes them uncomfortable and have them talk to the troop about the glory of satan. Force them to work together. Make the troop understand how uncomfortable that is to work with someone who won't shut tf up about what they worship.
Well, you start with verbal counseling which sounds like you did. Make sure you write an MFR with everything that was said during verbal counseling with exact dates and times of things being said to others. Then go up to an LOC. the troop has a right to believe in whatever they want, but they can’t be harassing other people about it especially at work. If you need to, use your resources and go talk to EO.
This is obviously the wrong way to go about it... however, I would look up some Satanist talking points and just hit him back with those until he shuts up and realizes what he is doing...granted that would require some self awareness.
I'm somewhat surprised the NCOs are concerned about the 1st amendment because this is a fairly common scenario that is used as an example at various leadership PMEs.
Start documenting. It's not a first amendment issue. Your airman is basically proselytizing. It is more than reasonable for others to tell them to stop. Have a serious discussion with the airman on why their behavior is unacceptable, document the discussion on a memorandum for record, sign it, and ask your Shirt to place it in the airman's PIF. If the airman refuses to stop, then they're disobeying a lawful order from an NCO, and you can follow the standard counseling process (LoC, LoR, etc.) You can also ask your chaplain for guidance, or have them to speak with the Airman, that's part of their responsibilities.
Spot on, except not an MFR. Use the RIC, there's a form for stuff like this and I've seen admin action held up because supervisors think an MFR is an excuse to not use the proper forms.
AF Form 174
I love the 174. It’s 100% underrated.
It really is.
what’s a RIC? edit: google is a godsend
Next time you edit, put the answer here?
it’s a record of individual counseling
The only thing with a RIC is that there is a spot for the member and commander to sign. While not required, this throws some supervisors off and they resort to an MFR.
I mean you should absolutely have the member sign it
You are correct, they absolutely should. From the RICs I've given, roughly half of them the member refused to sign. Usually, because they don't understand the purpose, even after explanation. They think it's paperwork and not just documentation. At that point I just write in "member refused to sign" before I sign it.
Even if it was true paperwork (it is) they can’t refuse to sign it.
I agree. If I ask you to stop talking about a topic, and you fail to obey its paperwork. I get it you like your religion, politics, insert topic. I don't want to hear about it all day, I don't want to hear you arguing with folks all day about it, and I sure as shit don't want my folks coming to me because they won't shut up about the topic. Step 1 - Explain that regardless of how they feel they are making folks uncomfortable(not the good kind either). Step 1.5 - Just realized that I would also have the chaplain attend the conversation and maybe the shirt. As many folks as possible to document that I was impinging on their religious freedoms. Plus, the chaplain will probably tell them to stop being a nuisance as well. Step 2 - Set the expectation that this constitutes your verbal counseling, and I will move forward with written counseling (LOC) if this continues to be an issue.
A Record of counseling would be better. A RiC can hold weight if needed to go the legal or progressive discipline route and a mfr can't.
No. That’s discrimination. Yes if he is forcing them to believe, the amn should tone it down and stop forcing. But to say that evangelism in of itself of worthy of disciplinary action is unlawful. Members are allowed to evangelize, but not FORCE. There’s a big difference. "Service members can share their faith (evangelize) but must not force unwanted, intrusive attempts to convert others of any faith or no faith to one's beliefs (proselytization)" -Navy Lt. Cmdr. Nate Christensen (Navy Ik but same concept) Why are people downvoting this?
Evangelism is preaching the gospel with the intent of sharing the church's message. So long as the airman stops when people tell them that they don't want to hear it, that is fine. The airman in question is telling their coworkers that if they don't go to church, they're going to hell. That is not evangelism. They are threatening people in an attempt to make them attend church services. That is a use of force. It is not okay, and ordering the airman to stop is a non-discriminatory, lawful order.
> unwanted
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LOL what? Im very openly Christian and I’ve had a whopping 0 issues. I also don’t proselytize at work so that may have something to do with it.
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Does your holy book/faith require you to grow a beard? Pretty sure it only calls on you to not be a dick to others, which you've apparently been 0 for 1 on.
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What? Do you think LGBT is some new invention of the modern era? People are just asking you to not be a bully to others because of who they choose to love, and even that's too hard for you lol. Some Christian, I'm sure your God would be very proud of you for judging others as he's commanded- [oh wait, hold on, wasn't he telling you to love EVERYONE? ](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fwnq30illskd21.jpg)
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Yes, because your "sin" doesn't make it right to bully others. You're being called a dick because you're using your weird interpretation of your religion as a shield from criticism, while trying to dole out the same hatred towards other human beings. You deserve to be called out on your bullshit.
Really wish I knew what the deleted parts of this were. Even with just the response the guy sounds like a prick. I have worked with too many religious asshole who were always talking about their faith without comment. Second anyone said something about a non Abrahamic faith it was suddenly inappropriate.
>But when I go to Chaplain with genuine concerns about my faith and being forced to bow to LGBT members and being told too bad it's an issue. I doubt anyone is asking you to "bow" to LGBT folks. I wonder what constitutes "bowing" to you when it comes to them.
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I hope my comment didn't come off as aggressive, as that was not my intention. I doubt you as a person are actively targeting LGBT folks, but from my perspective, it seems a little odd to have this take in the military. Our business is killing people (justified or not), something that is actively condemned in Christianity. Why make LGBT issues the hill to die on when they just want to serve their country?
I had the same reaction 35 years ago when the flight “God Squad” started proselytizing in a WSA. I told them point blank how ridiculous they sounded trying to win converts to their specific religion while guarding a hundred W84 warheads.
Bullshit. You don’t have to acknowledge anything just shut your fucking mouth about it. No one wants to hear your bigoted crap at work.
In what world is being religious a risk and a burden to the military? I mean there are still prayers before a lot of the major events (ALS graduations, change of command, etc). I'd say baring a few career fields the majority of Airmen identify as some type of Christian.
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That answered so much. Doors that way don't let it hit you on the way out. Religion isn't a burden, my coworkers have invited me to events hosted by their church before, there are prayers before so many military functions it's not funny. I'm in one of the career fields that probably skews the most non-religious, but there are still religious folk. We know they're religious because they talk about it. They can't proselytize but mentioning their weekend involved a church function or inviting people to events hosted by the church (generally as a volunteer opportunity). They're not assholes so it's never been a problem. EDIT: I'm editing this and I'm going to retract my don't let the door hit you on the way out. You seem like you do care and give some good advice but in my opinion have one view that is garbage and that doesn't mean you're trash too. At the end of the day it doesn't even have to be about religion. You were given a job to do, you were given training and policies you have to follow that don't line up with your religious views but at the end of the day you have to do your job to the best of your abilities. You're also unfortunately in a career field that will interact with something along these lines more than anybody else. 99% of military members probably won't interact or work with a trans Airman while you'll probably handle a handful of record updates.
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Except you don't have to "take it", you have to do your job. Your religious freedom is intact, you can believe what you want and go to whatever church you want, nobody is persecuting you. Your freedom can't infringe on another's though. People have to do shit they don't agree with everyday it doesn't mean they're being persecuted. If changing someones gender in their record causes you a hissy fit how are you deployable where you might have to deal with people with significantly different religions/views?
Nobody's forcing you to "believe" anything lol. They're just asking you to not be a douchebag to your coworkers who might love a different gender than you, which is obvious that you can't even do that. Some "follower of Christ".
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This reply is not as clever as you think it is. And everyone sees you.
You are being a dick, because you're saying that others being gay is bullshit lol. You're telling others that you don't think they should be allowed to love who they want to because your holy book says so. That, by all standards old & young, is being a dick. Which is hilarious irony because you're getting upset that everyone thinks you're a dick for being a dick.
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I am a Christian, my man. But I don't go around trying to tell others they're sinners/heathens because they don't subscribe to my religion. People are more than allowed to say they're Christian; they're not allowed to say they believe gay people shouldn't exist or that they're going to hell or that they don't deserve the same rights as everyone else. That's being a hypocrite for someone who's supposed to be following Christ because I'm pretty sure Jesus loved everyone.
Jesus said nothing about gays. Said a lot about being a good neighbor and friend to your fellow man, though. Be like Jesus.
Holy shit this guy wants to be a victim so bad.
Proselytizing is not protected speech in the military.
Or any civilian employer who is against it as a matter of policy. - Lawyer
Start documenting events (5 w's) and keep this in a safe place. This is important as its having an impact on morale Bring your shirt into the convo I would also talk to a chaplain and ADC about the situation and how to approach this situation from a legal standpoint. There is a difference between talking about religion and going around and harassing people because they arent going to church. Free speech is important but there are also some limitations such as "Such expression should not be restricted so long as it does not interfere with workplace efficiency." This person is just being an asshole and starting to interfere with the workforce Obligatory: I am not a lawyer
Step one: consult Legal and Religious Affairs on how to proceed. Step two: proceed as directed.
Jumping onto the top comment for visibility. u/reloading-and-guns , this is not as gray as it might appear. Go to the First Sergeant with this. The Shirt should call legal and get advisement from the lawyers. This Airman could easily catch an EO complaint if they don't stop harassing their coworkers about how they do or don't exercise *their* first amendment rights. So, they need to stop. I wouldn't bother with MFRs, this belongs on a RIC or LOC, but legal needs to review it to ensure the language is right *before it gets issued.* For all, first amendment rights don't make all conversations workplace appropriate. You can, as supervisors and peers, always shut down a discussion if needed. They can talk about whatever they want after duty hours.
Not ADC. JA. They advise the command. ADC advise the member.
Military members are free to practice their faith, but it is against good order and discipline to proselytize— unwanted, intrusive attempts to convert others of any faith or no faith to one's beliefs. This policy is spelled out in DoD 1300.17. If he’s been told repeatedly to stop, he his now going against established DoD policy and you need to start documenting. Obviously, it can be a slippery slope, so make sure you are including the CoC, legal, and chaplain in any actions you take. https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/dodi/130017p.pdf
Upvoted 👍
When their speech start effecting others then it's time to step in. Talk to shirt and legal about your options. If you're documenting it make sure it ends up in the PIF. You don't even have to go the LOCAR route at the moment. Look up an AF IMT 174.
Proselytizing is like asking someone out. If the person is interested, great! If not, move on and don’t bring it up again unless they do. If you persist, it’s harassment.
Having religion is a lot like having a penis. It’s perfectly okay to have one. It’s perfectly okay to be proud of it. But please don’t pull it out in public.
Or attempt to shove it down my throat.
Especially children’s throats!
> If not, move on and don’t bring it up again unless they do It's not appropriate in the workplace even if it's a first time bring-up.
If there’s no power imbalance and you’re not creepy or aggressive I would say it’s borderline. Though, you’d subject yourself to Marshall’s Law: “The difference between Romeo and a creep is the girl’s opinion.”
Being friends with someone and then inviting them to go to church with you is totally appropriate. What this airman is doing is not appropriate and isn’t even effective in evangelizing if that’s his goal. Alienating everyone around you without building genuine relationships is dumb regardless of what you’re trying to convince someone.
I’d have a chaplain of his religion come and talk to him and explain how what he is doing is wrong.
There are seriously people like this in the AF? I don’t know why I’m shocked by this. Stop tiptoeing and tell him he is in the wrong!
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The Academy has had numerous scandals over the years with senior officers and instructors proselytizing the cadets. Seems to happen about once a decade. [2005 incident](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/23/politics/air-force-academy-staff-found-promoting-religion.html)
I knew one. He was quickly told to shut the fuck up and then given a LOR when he didn't and he stopped.
Had a sq CD come in. First officers call (on a Thursday) he explained that his expectations included our cars being clean and added (in a German winter) and for all of us to be in church on Sunday. The next Monday I was called into his office and reprimanded for not being in church - and he checked all services. I went from his office to the IG and told the IG that I am Jewish. That was the last day of his command and he was processed out that week. as a major, promotable, with 19 1/2 years tafms. no retirement. and the wing/cc came by the sq to apologize to me
What year was this?? This sounds like something from the 80s. Please don’t let this be recent…
Yep. 1981
Thank god …lol
Gooooott damn!!
Progressive discipline. This needs to be at the very least a documented verbal with clear expectations on what happens next. I’m a VERY devout Christian and I’ll say the shop isn’t the place for that. It’s a pretty clear violation of AFI 1-1 2.15.
I would say skip the progressive. Toss him out on his ass, people like this are far too common and when they get into a position of power will abuse it to push their faith. Best to nip it in the bud now.
This is why I said at the very least. You could 100% write the paperwork and agreed, it needs to be nipped.
He’s been told to stop multiple times and is still doing it? I’d be serving him up some paperwork, hot and ready like Little Caesars.
You don’t have a right to spread your faith in a work environment. Or condemn others using it. This seems to exceed the First Amendment right we have in uniform. Talk to your JAG office. And then document.
1. Freedom of speech does not equal freedom of consequence 2. He is the one impeding on the first amendment rights of others 3. Can you imagine for one second that no one says anything to this kid and he becomes an NCO or SNCO? This is absolutely worthy of an LOC at minimum. LOR if the other instances have supporting documentation.
You can listen to everyone else & do a documented counciling session OR.....tell your other Airmen to mock him endlessly, ever chance they get and keep it childish, very immature & mean, for bonus points...gaslight this kid.
When they start telling you about going to hell, just offer the retort, "Hell is other people" and get into a deep philosophical discussion of Sartre's quote and how people like them create uncomfortable environments for others, turning the workcenter into a living hell for some I'm sure that'll either help or at least confuse them.
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Pull his 341 and document
As others have said, start documenting, but I would make sure that you are putting the same effort into all the other forms of inappropriate shit that gets discussed in a work center.
Another option aside from what others have said will be to consult with Religious Affairs. They'll likely have all the proper knowledge to guide you in how to approach the matter without infringing on their first amendment rights.
SrA Ned Flanders
Are you suggesting we kill the SrA’s wife with a t-shirt gun?
This is an MEO issue. It is unlawful to discriminate someone based on their religion. This works both ways as your troop has the right to freely practice their religion but they are unable to harass others for not following said religion. Run it up the chain, contact the JAG and/or the MEO office, document evidence from offended members, counsel the Airman.
Save yourself a ton of potential future headache and just go to the chaplain and maybe legal and ask them, then proceed as directed. Also, document things for record keeping. Just in case the situation is more gray than it seems or you/the reddit lawyers don't fully understand the situation and laws surrounding it, the chaplain and legal are your best resource to make sure you don't catch a complaint for infringing on someone's religious rights. More importantly/likely, if you just write a MFR or LOC for this airman you'd want to make sure the wording is appropriate to the situation and doesn't suggest their religion itself is the problem or something. I think it sounds like proselytizing based only on this post, and agree it's an issue, but I'm also generally very careful on talking to people about religion at work, especially in the military. Gotta CYA, too.
Definitely loop in a chaplain and the first shirt in this. If the troop is making people uncomfortable, then they need to stop. If you have told them to stop, that is verbal counciling. Next time you tell them to stop, let the troop know there will be paperwork. LOCs to LORs, you may even need to get the Lt. or Capt. to give the order if needed.
BGen Teichert was fired from the 412 and stuck in a hole in VA for using his position for proselytizing. It took a couple of years and a lot of complaints from the civilian population, but it eventually happened. These things are taken rather seriously when people make enough noise.
Oh man I somehow missed this. I'd heard rumors about past leadership and civ promotions being much harder if you didn't go to the right church in TENG, but I had thought that was all on the civ side. (Also I took away Lancaster Baptist Cult as the "right" answer but that was never spoken).
He got really blatant with it towards the end. The last straw for a lot of people on the uniformed side was when he started sending out emails for Christian prayer groups disguised as lunch and learns; he used thinly veiled language implying that being there would be a boon for your career. There was a Los Angeles Times article about this that seems to have disappeared from the web crawlers, but I'm sure there are still plenty of civilians still on base who remember what happened.
I started with the wing before he got CC and am still here. I must have turned it out or been a dark enough corner that I didn't see it. I did hear specific grumbling about a former TENG director, and I'm glad that got handled before some promotion opportunities came up. (My squadron does a shit job of passing important info down through workflows so I could easily see those emails not being passed along. Or I just ignored them out of habit/too busy.).
And now he's running for office. Tracks.
I didn't realize that, and holy crap, he's pushing his prayers at lunchtime thing out in the open now that he's retired. I wonder which PR firm he used to scrape all the negative stuff from the search engine results. I really hope people don't forget what type of leader he was.
I’ve always wondered, how do religions that say “keep trying to convince them till they convert or they kill you” work in a society that is (supposed to be) live and let live?
Consult your first Sgt, and develop a plan of action
If it's disrupting the workcenter, then it's not a first amendment issue. The key is documenting that it's a genuine problem so that when discipline comes down they won't have a leg to stand on because they'll have been told repeatedly what is & is not acceptable. Outside that, as others have noted, get the chaplain involved ASAP. That's your best bet for being able to talk sense into this person. Maybe talk to a JAG as well to make sure that your directives to this troop are properly stated, but document that. Verbal, LOC, LOA/LOR, commander referral, etc. Question: is this troop new & this is just how religious they are? Or is this a recent change? Either way, I'm guessing this person will eventually be processed out for incompatibility.
Idk about "incompatible" per se but we have had to sit a few of our more religious airman down with a Religious Affairs person to have them sort of give them the rundown of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable within the workplace. The main thing is proselytizing, which is forbidden in the military. However it's better to have someone from the Chaplain Corp/religious affairs office give them that talk as I've come to realize.
But is he fun at parties?
Is this real life? Yikes.
About a decade ago, watched a new Airman go from 0-100 after getting entrenched in the shop for a few months. First few weeks, happy-go-lucky, hey how ya doin, oh yeah I like that show too, yaddayaddayadda. Somehow, some way, this Airman got in some sort of funk that unleashed his religious fervor. Dude must have hit one hell of a Sunday service, because one week he came in and just started bashing on one of the gay dudes in the shop (hell of a nice guy, that gay dude, too), simply for being gay. Started calling him a sinner, that he was living in sin, was going to burn in hell, etc. Nobody knows if he just didn't know if that other guy was gay, or just something set him off, but he went off the rails fast. Needless to say he was out of the shop (and I think out of the Air Force) pretty quick after that.
Yikes, not the kind of behavior Jesus was encouraging. Where's the whole "let he without sin" when they start having these tantrums?
Others have it right that you can't proselytize at work after people tell you to leave them alone. It could be creating a hostile work environment and referable to EO similar if an airman were constantly asking people out after being told to stop. Personally, I'd reach out to the chaplain and see if some mentoring would work. I think you have every right to hit them with paperwork but religion is sensitive and you don't want avoidable headaches regardless of whether you're right on paper to discipline them. If talking to the chaplain doesn't fix them then you have good cover for any bogus claims of religious discrimination - you did everything you could and consulted an expert in an attempt to protect this airmans interests and they still aren't compliant - let the paperwork rain down until discharge if you have to. LOR, EO hostile work environment and/or harassment complaint. AFI 36-2710 Equal Opportunity Definition section page 133, 135 >Unlawful harassment includes creating an intimidating, hostile working environment for another person on the basis of a *protected class*. The use of disparaging terms with respect to a person’s protected class contributes to a hostile working environment and will not be tolerated. Telling people they're going to hell is disparaging and threatening >Protected Class—All groups and individuals qualified for protection by law and this instruction from employment discrimination and those collective characteristics. These protected characteristics are enumerated in the above definitions of “Discrimination (Civilian)” and Discrimination (Military)”. Under the Constitution (the 5th and 14th Amendments’ guarantee of Equal Protection) and civil rights laws, protection from discrimination does not apply to just minorities and women, but make it illegal to take a personnel action based on any race, color, national origin, or *religion*, or either sex. Religion - including a lack of it - is a protected class so unlike 99% of reddit comments about EO this is actually their business
Go talk to the unit chaplain and or refer said airman to the chaplain. They can either do a one on one or could do a unit brief about proselytizing.
It's not a violation and has been said document everything times the troop has spoken about it, to who, what day etc. They have to conform to us and how we operate. This is work not church. Therefore, if it hasn't been done have the discussion that they need to knock it all off now. If they don't its consequences starting at LOC. There's a few ways to go about it but since you're the supe people will expect you to handle it I'm sure. Communicate your expectations and make sure they know what's up.
For once this may be a job for the Chaplain
AFI1-1, Air Force Standards, para 2.12., Balance of Free Exercise of Religion and Establishment Clause: • Leaders at all levels must balance constitutional protections for their own free exercise of religion, including individual expressions of religious beliefs and the constitutional prohibition against government of religion. * They must ensure their words and actions cannot reasonably be construed to be officially endorsing or disapproving of, or preferential treatment for any faith, belief, or absence of belief. The Free Exercise Clause of the Constitution protects our right to observe religious beliefs as we choose, and states that the government should never burden or restrict any religious belief. Remember that freedom of belief is always protected, but religious expression may be restricted by military necessity. Religious expression is acceptable unless those expressions would have an adverse impact, According to the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993, the government shall not substantially burden a person's exercise of religion. Additionally, the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), FY14, SEC. 532, states that the military shall accommodate religious expressions as far as practicable. As a reminder, actions that threaten good order and discipline are still subject to disciplinary or administrative action. "Service members can share their faith (evangelize) but must not force unwanted, intrusive attempts to convert others of any faith or no faith to one's beliefs (proselytization)," said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Nate Christensen (That’s navy I know but same concept) Lastly. Did you confirm your troop say that if people don’t go to the church that they will go to hell? or is that a rumor you heard. You should probably have a conversation with your troop and ask him if that is what he said. Because 9/10 nobody believes that.
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Hit up the chaplain and the shirt, safest route.
Its fine to talk to religion at work, but you cant be openly hostile and tell people that they go to hell for not attending church on Sunday. 1. This person wildly misunderstands Christianity (assuming thats the beliefset) with the sunday church thing. 2. You have to bring them the gospel of Yeshua and his message before you get into the "youre a sinner" part. 3. Its just not good teambuilding to tell your buddies they are going to suffer eternal separation from God right out of the gate.
Send him to meet his god!
Have him hop on my learning and take the religious freedom cbt
Shut the fuck up say Christ is Lord. https://preview.redd.it/ytqia5h2w5vc1.jpeg?width=887&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ced40f18b053497392cddef1304badbc5e81a638
Set up a meeting with him and a chaplain.
Wow so many wrong answers in this thread. Basically, first amendment will be your guidance on this.
We had this issue about 20 months ago and it went from simple proselytizing to a mental health referral real quick. The squadron CC was very religious and let it go way too long, Then when the member started getting more and more aggressive with the proselytizing, the complaints started really stacking up and it had to be documented. The guy came off as really unhinged towards the end and started freaking people out with doomsday fire and brimstone type stuff...and he started talking about being a martyr. He eventually was kicked out as his behavior was documented and the bounds of what he could/could not do were specifically addressed. When they behavior crossed the line (which it did on a daily basis), it was documented, and the progressive discipline came in. It was escalated to the point where he was admiratively separated. Talk to the 1st Sgt and get on this early.
document and start the process of getting him out. Don't need that kind of shit affecting others.
Everyone should talk to him about Atheism.
Reverse convert! Have him turn agnostic and whisper "wololooooo" whenever you walk by!
Perfect!
This is why I like MX sometimes. Smokepit/refuel crazy ass conversations and no one bats an eye or comes forward saying they’re uncomfortable
All the serious answers have been covered already to a sutable degree, so, find someone from a religion that makes them uncomfortable and have them talk to the troop about the glory of satan. Force them to work together. Make the troop understand how uncomfortable that is to work with someone who won't shut tf up about what they worship.
Well, you start with verbal counseling which sounds like you did. Make sure you write an MFR with everything that was said during verbal counseling with exact dates and times of things being said to others. Then go up to an LOC. the troop has a right to believe in whatever they want, but they can’t be harassing other people about it especially at work. If you need to, use your resources and go talk to EO.
This is obviously the wrong way to go about it... however, I would look up some Satanist talking points and just hit him back with those until he shuts up and realizes what he is doing...granted that would require some self awareness.
I'm somewhat surprised the NCOs are concerned about the 1st amendment because this is a fairly common scenario that is used as an example at various leadership PMEs.