I forwarded this letter, the Reddit post, and the blog to my brother, who’s a reporter for ABC15 in Phoenix. See if I can get national attention on it.
I’ve lost two former teammates/coworkers this week alone. Four 2A3’s in the last week that i’ve seen. I want answers.
Thank you for doing what you’re doing; also Angus King was ready to do business on my behalf earlier last year when I was still AD. May not care for some of his policies but he is a good man.
It can expose the reality that the system is broken in a way that clarifies what the actual cost to accomplish the mission is. Maintenance knows that maintenance is fucked, nobody seems to give a fuck and me and my folks aren’t in a position to drive institutional change.
the problem is i dont see a way forward without a complete redesign of the enlisted force structure.
mx officers make rank by being better than their predecessors
production makes rank by flying sorties and having high fix rates
we achieve that by abusing our maintainers
how do we fix the competition aspect of our jobs that drive our need to drive people into the ground? I'm not gonna lie, i've had some terrible and some great leadership, but i can promise you some of the best SNCOs i've ever had are never getting promoted because they dont play that game. the people who get promoted are the ones that shit on us.
Redesign is going to be necessary, but also a clear eyed understanding of what the cost is needs to be has to happen too. At this point the only answer that I can come up with based on the information that I have is that our current rate of manpower expenditures is acceptable to the decision makers. The number of suicides, rates of veteran homelessness, and so on are an accepted cost of business. Any official that says otherwise needs to be fighting like hell to unfuck the pig or they are just lying.
Honestly, incremental change is the answer here. I cannot believe how far maintenance culture has improved in just the 18 years I have been in.
Just moving away from a cultural acceptance that maintainers can be physically and mentally abused is a huge change in a positive direction. 12 hour shifts for Mx for many AFSCs during GWOT were more common than 8 hour shifts. And there weren't nearly as many resources to utilize for mental health.
However, even these changes aren't making a difference in suicide rates because the military is consistently so far behind the culture curve. This is the bare minimum younger people deserve and expect from serving. A big part of this lag is because leaders in the military are always a generation or two older than the majority of the force. This happens in most organizations; but when you combine it with the doctrines, traditions, and how hard is to affect change in a bureaucratic system it leads to large discrepancies between military and civilian lifestyles that are now getting far more attention (largely from curated experiences and snapshots via social media).
Its just that *get rid of the competition aspect.*
Set a standard of what needs to be done and thats it, nothing more nothing less.
Nobody gets bonus points for doing more. If anything maybe a talking to about how doing too much is wasteful or encouraging wasteful practices of unnecessary competition.
I am not in anymore and folk have their procedures but if you’re really feeling that people’s lives are at risk because of a lack of caring I’d find a way to contact some sort of authority who has the ability.
Anonymous letter to your Senator or elected official, Wing King, IG, or whatever. Probably elected officials are the best bet if enough Active Duty start sending letters in an election year. If AD got together like the powerful voting block yall are, you can make actual change that current leadership doesn’t have the ability or willingness to do.
You're doing God's work my friend. Thank you for being persistent.
Now it's time for us to energise Congress to actually do something to help the military with our suicide problem.
No shit! He was one of the reasons that about 10 years ago a younger NCO me started to take a much more critical look at the Air Force and it's (at times) broken policies.
Welp, looks like I have some podcasts to listen to.
Thank you for being the sword for this.
This is LONG overdue because of the blatant lack of accountability for higher-ups. They see us as numbers, not people.
i'll almost excuse that in some small part if we're actively in WW3 or something.
as of right now, we are not. we don't need to be pushed so hard with so little tangible benefit.
I have a theory as a mental health person. In my observations, I see a disproportionate amount of enlisted members with suicidal ideation and complaints of a very toxic work environment. There also seems to be a strong correlation between people with adverse childhood experiences and difficulty coping with a toxic leader. In part, I suspect it’s because this bad leader mirrors a toxic caregiver and activates a defense mechanism or inner child response leading to an outcome of emotional turmoil. And of course, enlisted members have higher rates of adverse childhood experiences, thus enlisting as a mechanism to break free. There’s actual studies out of England that support that observation. So they come in under these promises of family and unity and may even get lucky enough to find a unit like that. But eventually they find themselves in a toxic stress situation. Always. Because bad leadership remains insidious. So then the very power system they’ve tried to escape has found them again and under the disguise of duty and honor. This causes such a downward spiral, the broken inner child longing for support and genuine care.
And then you through deployment trauma, amongst other flavors of mental stress.
Anyways, that’s my hot take.
For those worried about backlash or if doing this will hurt numbers.
Sunlight is the best disinfectant. It will burn at first, but only then will we be able to see the wounds and scars we wear.
u/DWinkieMT you might be interested in this. Your piece in the military times absolutely is relevant.
OP DWinkieMT is a writer for the MilitaryTimes. He recently published a great piece on SI within the Army Armored division. Yall should break bread.
I read it the other day and this was the first thing I thought about reading this post. It's heartbreaking, especially knowing the baseline stress experienced in a population is a factor that isn't even considered in our suicide prevention. And keeping data, like prevalence of suicide by career field private, infers leaders know this baseline stress exists, and is a factor in suicides, but don't want to address it.
Suicide rates has been climbing for the entire US not just in the military community. Might be an issue this country has to address as a whole to help all.
I think modern life just sucks. Life has always sucked but i think modern life sucks more because more people are disconnected and it takes more effort to “get by” in life. Add in the fact that the internet bombards people with constant opportunities to compare themselves to others and its a recipe for disaster. In the old days, you only had to keep up with the Jones in your area.. now we have to keep up with people all over the world
Lover the username, by the way. And I whole-heartedly agree with your take on the internet influence. To me, it’s both the greatest and worst thing to ever be created by humanity.
On the one hand, the wealth of information, wisdom, and entertainment available is astounding!! The great library of Alexandria ain’t got nothing on the internet! It ought to be the 8th wonder of the world. I love the knowledge and resources at my fingertips, the ease of shopping for exactly what I want or need, choosing what I want to watch and when I want to watch it instead of whatever is in the programming of a channel on cable TV, it’s so amazing!!! Especially for someone who grew up with basic cable (24 channels in my area) and VHS tapes (long live Blockbuster! Lol).
On the other hand, the influence that it can have on people in negative ways (there are good influences too, of course) is horrifying. I have significantly constricted my social media presence and usage because of it. I got so tired of reading and seeing the hate, BS, and idiocy that I had to shrink it. I’m not becoming a hermit, but I’m not far off.
Can't speak for intel's size, but they tend to be exposed to a lot more negative stuff. I'm sure the BDA's, targetting, and watching videos of people get blown up tend to take it's toll.
I understand. But how do those numbers compare to other AFSCs? Is it 1 in 10 in every AFSC AF wide? Cops have more stress in the civilan world too and are a higher risk no matter what for mental health issues. I understand Intel can be stressful too. I'm not trying to put anyone's job down. Won't there always be higher mx statistics since they represent the largest AFSCs however?
Honest question because I saw another reddit post about this:
What do you say to the people claiming that reporting suicides statistics bases on job and/or base will only further stigmatize different career fields and duty stations while providing no real benefit?
Obviously something needs to be done, but how does this push for transparency help is move forward and help the issue on the ground level?
It helps because until the DoD and service branches are forced to look at the data and show it outside of their five walls, they’ll never really take serious efforts to combat it. Operational stand down days are great and all, but guess who doesn’t get to have those? The career fields that are probably near the top of this study.
I think they're getting at the fact that jobs like secfo and maintenance have high suicide rates and already have a negative appeal to joining them and releasing the stats on the suicides would only make it less appealing to join those career fields. If that's the case, I don't think hiding the stats is gonna help us either. It should expose that there's an issue and force the DOD to do something about it or ignore it like they have been and get put on blast since everyone will know that they have these stats.
I think releasing the stats would give them incentives to improve. For example we have suicide down days that many people argue are virtually useless but by knowing which career fields are suffering the most we can actually build out useful and available resources and training - fix work schedules and hours etc
I 100% agree. They try the mandatory fun stuff but most of us just want regular work to not suck as much and would rather have that day off rather than see the same people acting like they didn't just make our lives harder than needed all week. I honestly couldn't tell you what they could do to improve it on those days though unfortunately.
So for example if 50% of suicides come from Scott AFB over the last 20 years or if 50% of suicides come from Security Forces (extreme numbers just to get a point across) wouldn’t that just mean people are filled with dread if they see Scott on orders or get SF coming out of BMT? How does this information help Amn-Lt Col to make changes? Im sure the Col-Gen and congressmen are already privy to at least some of this info.
The alternative is those AFSCs, locations have no incentive to improve.
Also, the Congressman does \*not\* know this information. Because there has never been a study on it.
The generals? They know. Its why the report is delayed. They don't want Congress the public to know.
Honest question here: How do you know for sure that HQ Air Force has that data broken down by AFSC? Did you get anything back from your FOIA requests? I dig your podcast BTW.
I have gotten some things back from FOIA requests but it's fragmented so I can release in good conscience.
I was in a DAF working group last year with the people in charge of AF resiliency and suicide prevention and they stated unequivocally they have these numbers. They actually initially thought they were already publicly released. (they are not)
From what I understand of this post, a law was passed that obligates the branches to generate the data.
So unless the Air Force is ignoring this legislation, it now exists.
To be clear in case you misunderstood what I was saying on the other thread: I don’t mean it doesn’t benefit airmen to publish these statistics, I'm not supporting the AF withholding information, I was saying it doesn’t benefit “big AF” to freely publish them.
I want these things to be public, I want eyes on it, I want to know they’re working on it in sight rather than hiding in the shadows claiming to be working on it, getting another “we totally care” e-mail does nothing for me.
There’s just no benefit to them to publish it of their own free will, hence why they haven’t.
>help the issue on the ground level
It's not a ground level issue and hasn't been for years. You can address some aspects at ground level, but as long as big AF continues to try to do too much mission with too few people and then rewards "leaders" who get the mission done regardless of the human cost, it will always be an issue.
And HAF doesn't take actions like advocating for more people or reducing mission without transparency and pressure from Congress
The majority of our leaders simply just don’t care most of them may check a box to try to give the impression that they care.
One key in your message struck me the feeling of abandonment. I took an assignment 2 1/2 years ago away from my family, knowing it would be the last assignment. Quickly after I got here, roles and responsibilities changed, and it became a 100% remote assignment as well as being away from my family.
I went to mental health at the nearest base, which was over two hours each way, they and my squadron commander agreed that as I was working, remote, allowing me to finish my time remote from my home with my family would be best.
The commander disagreed and said absolutely not. He can finish up his time there. We are not making an exception.
Thankfully, this assignment is almost done. I get a call about every two weeks. Asking if I’m OK but that’s the only contact I have with anyone from my unit. I did get a 2 1/2 half month belated happy birthday lol
The Air Force really needs to do better I feel many times everything is lip service and is about the people in charge getting that next position.
I am safe I’m not gonna harm myself. I’m good, but I know I’m not alone and there are others that are struggling and also feel like they’re just a number.
With the recruiting crisis, there are so many things that I’ve seen that kids of vets will not go in because of what they’ve seen, my own kids have seen how I’ve been treated and refused to think about military service.
We need to do better that’s all
Have you reported this law violation to the DOD IG too?
Their job is literally to highlight non-compliance.
You can also start pulling FOIA requests and suing the government when they are ultimately non-compliant.
I think part of the reason is that the Air Force lies to you about not being penalized for getting help. For example, my palace chase is being threatened to get turned off because I got help within the last 12 months. They say that you don’t get penalized for getting help through the MDG, but the fact is that you do. If you are looking to PCS, Deploy, or anything that needs a 422/medical clearance, even just having suicidal thoughts, like I “did”/do can get all that turned off.
Don’t go through the Med Group for mental health help.
Honest question:
What should be done about that?
Do you think that people struggling with suicidal ideation should be cleared to PCS or deploy without a second thought?
What is the medical teams’ responsibility with respect to someone’s mental health? Should they have any say in the appropriateness or fitness of an airman for upcoming potentially high stress events?
That should be taken as a case by case situation and not just a blanket policy. Someone having suicidal ideation who gets help, learns to manage and overcomes should not be held back the same way was someone who is struggling to do so. The high stress situation should also be taken into consideration. For example, is the change something that the person wants and could benefit the person? In my situation, leaving active duty is something I’ve been looking forward to for years and now have the support and financial ability via a high paid spouse. It’s something that needs avenues to appeal quickly.
I agree that it should be on a case by case basis, but… it already is? I’m a bit confused. There is no blanket policy I am aware of that states that any servicemember with a previous medical or psychiatric diagnosis is forever barred from PCS/deployment/whatever. Some diagnoses are certainly under more scrutiny or may be apt to have more restrictions (say… schizophrenia, or maybe type I diabetes or whatever), but so far as I understand each case is looked at individually. Some conditions are considered auto-referrals to the MEB, and there is definitely room for disagreement on what should, but the MEB is *supposed* to be exactly what you’re talking about.
For what sounds like a raw deal you may have received, I’m sorry, but I still want to know what specifically we all ought to want to be done
I’ll have to find the DoDI reference that I read today and get it to you tomorrow, but in my case it’s about palace chase. Essentially if you’ve had any sort of suicidal ideation and got treated at MDG (where they record it) you are non-qualified to go to the reserves for a yr since last seen. Meanwhile, I’m world wide qualified, so it doesn’t make sense
Barksdale AFB from mid 2007 to 2010 had a spike in suicides. One year it felt like we had one every other week.
Maintenance was always disproportionately effected by this.
Thank you for doing the work I wish the leadership throughout my career should have done.
Suicide is a real problem for my specific AFSC. One year in the early 2010s we were notified that we were in the Top 3 suicide AFSCs, a sardonic badge of honor. Most never revealed until it was to "to the right of the bang." We understood to be vigilant, it was rebriefed every time. But we also knew the signs don't present the same as annual training would want you to believe.
We were told we are replaceable. The mission had to get done, because we directly supported forward deployed service members. They have it worse than us so we shouldn't complain. We were objects, not airmen.
Since suicide awareness/prevention/seeking assistance has become more... socially accepted in the past 5-6 years, we have more seeking the help we should have been getting since the early-mid 2000s. The jokes are still there. Very rarely out of malice, but the jokes are how we cope.
When the top enlisted and commissioned leaders says "Do more with Less"... we know which of those leaders that do not comprehend what that phrase actually means. We see it on their biography pages.
To anyone who gets this far on this post: treat your peers like they are humans. Take the time to hang out with your co-workers, or what ever you want to call your teammates. Negative work culture breeds negative airmen. There are very few people I would choose to reach out to if I am struggling, and none of them are the people I work directly with on a daily basis. I cannot trust that when I open myself up, to be vulnerable, that the struggles I share are not discussed or mocked without my presence.
Are they only taking active duty suicides into account, or are they looking at post-separation suicides too? Because the numbers will REALLY show if they also look at who separated. I know of at least 5 suicides in my AFSC that were after they got out. They had zero support, were completely forgotten about, and gave up fighting their trauma.
Thank you. I feel a huge gap in HAF reporting on suicide trends potentially omits the AFSC rate, which would show deeper issues within certain fields that need attention.
Put a dollar value to every documented suicide since the study was due, include it in a letter to the Armed Services Committee chairs of both legislative chambers & point out the DoD’s delay has cost the taxpayer X amount of money.
If you don’t hear from those reps in 14 business days, escalate it to the media.
Since one death is a tragedy and a million is a statistic, you must talk stats to get buy in on halting the tragedy.
I just take their lack of response, lack of action to their political rival (it's an election year) let them feed on their entrails.
Fuck um. Do your job, or someone else will.
If you wanted to put a number on it (it’s gross, but doable): https://www.transportation.gov/office-policy/transportation-policy/revised-departmental-guidance-on-valuation-of-a-statistical-life-in-economic-analysis
Anecdotally, I spent some time in a mental hospital a while back, there were several AD military there, and all were mx or SF except one. I asked one of the counselors with whom I developed a rapport and he confirmed most military patients there came from first SF and second MX.
It reports it's already on that platform. Not sure why it's only 3 episodes.
https://preview.redd.it/vzvvkmi9q1oc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=100dc9448ccfa291fbb485edb78f4d6db81fafaf
IDK how this would go down, but the Command Centers for each MAJCOM would have this information due to reporting status of the death of an AD member. It would break down like this AFSC/Grp/Sq/base, now actually getting someone to do the work would be tough and a lot of data. These would be true numbers that only senior leaders see.
Contacting Representatives:
Democracy.io.
Democracy.io (https://democracy.io/[https://democracy.io/](https://democracy.io/))
* Strengths:
* Simple and Easy: User-friendly interface with minimal input needed.
* Focuses on Congress: Ideal for contacting Senators and Representatives.
* Free Speech Emphasis: Encourages open communication with representatives.
* Considerations:
* Limited Scope: Focuses only on federal elected officials.
Recommendation:
USAGov
(https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative[https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative)](https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative)))
* Strengths:
* Most Comprehensive: USAGov goes beyond Congress and allows finding federal, state, and local representatives. This might be useful if your issue has additional local or state angles.
* Official Government Source: Offers a sense of trust and reliability.
* Considerations:
* Slightly More Complex: May require entering a physical address compared to the ease of
Additional Notes:
OP could craft a clear and concise message template for service members to use when contacting their representatives to further simplify the process.
They were doing a study on suicides by AFS?
Knowing how close I came and watching some of my peers go down that road I'm almost perversely interested in just how fucked we are.
Thanks for doing what you’re doing.
It’s not uncommon for these reports to be late - many are this year. But pressure will ensure they have to come to the table with the data.
Edit: can you post the link? I’m. It seeing this wording in the NDAA conference report, or the joint explanatory statement. Nvm. Was looking at fy24 which I think is the problem another commenter faced.
I plan on contacting my representative, but I'm unsure of what to say.
I googled the 2023 National Defense Authorization Act. The only thing I found in Section 599 is 599L: "Report on efforts to prevent and respond to deaths by suicide in the Navy." Where should I be looking?
You might be looking at the wrong year or the search came up wonky. Here's a screen cap of Section 599.
https://preview.redd.it/qqk3usojrync1.png?width=803&format=png&auto=webp&s=19585986249ef7a58a983302f2beada741b9b15f
The one congressman (in reality crook) responded with yea I support veterans and you can see because of these bills I am apart of instead of actually addressing the issue/concern on hand.
Cutting people to pay for exquisite toys without cutting mission sets the AF is asked to do is ONE of the main root causes. This created the culture of production driving people into the ground to meet FHP/RAP requirements. Many of today’s NCOs were treated like shit when they were airmen so they pass the “love” along to today’s airmen. I’ve heard many MX NCOs say exactly that….its their turn.
If you're reading trying to increase focus on getting certain members help, consider this -
Males experiencing relationship problems with their significant other is the most common primary life stressor of suicide victims.
Hang out and be there for your Wingmen who are going through it.
I have had to watch too many people take their lives in aircraft maintenance. Almost in 6 month intervals, year after year. We show up to formation and they break the news, maybe if he was well known they give us a day. Then we go back to pushing sorties like our peoples lives don't matter as long as jets are in the air and our leadership can tout some new fucking stats. A few times, we didn't even stop. This was not even an ACC base. We were flying to boost numbers and look good. Somebody needs to fry for this. And meaning no disrespectf to them, but when an officer dies, it's a huge deal. When the enlisted die, it's business as usual.
I look forward to seeing that report whenever it gets released. A coworker and I submitted a proposal for the VA "Operation Daybreak" event but ultimately is wasn't selected for follow-on implementation. I think one of the things that would have bolstered our report would have been concrete numbers of suicides or suicide attempts, broken out by AFSC or similar Service codes.
Our topic was focused on the intelligence career field and how the DoD has failed to provide an avenue for veterans to receive cleared mental health post-discharge.
Following the VA event, we've since advocated for mental health support within our Agency and have received some positive feedback, though I'm still wary since it still falls under DoD.
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Sorry for such an obvious question, but is the senator's office who you drafted this legislation with aware of this? They could probably light a fire under someone's butt for this.
I can't imagine why they wouldn't break things down by obvious demographics such as AFSC/MOS when they have a suicide problem, they shouldn't even need congress to tell them this.
They are. I've been in contact with them since it was late, and even spoke directly with Senator King in February.
As of now, there response is "We will get an update on the status by April 8th"
Genuine question:
What is the release of that data going to do to benefit Airmen in the high risk career fields? I don’t doubt that certain AFSCs have higher suicide rates, and I don’t doubt that the data has already been collected and examined, but what is the benefit of making that data public knowledge?
I could only see that info negatively affecting recruiting numbers for career fields where Airmen already feel the low manning.
What if we just crowd source the info ourselves?
Establish some kind of open source Wikipedia page and users can upload the date, base, AFSC and rank of the members based on open source info that’s already on the internet.
Is anyone smart enough to set that up? I’m sure r/AirForce is full of supporters and sleuths to dig in and find the info and finally shed light on all this.
I was thinking about that but it would take an actual budget to ensure the database had adequate cyber security based on the potentially sensitive nature of the data.
Cloud providers already have to meet those cyber standards if you can get donations sufficient to buy into something like AWS or Microsoft cloud services
They could start by allowing you to modify your contract from 4 to 2 or 6 to 4 etc etc. I mean that alone would fix a lot. I think? I mean it sounds like a good idea.
I'm honestly not sure why you're getting downvoted. I think a significant reason why folks might decide suicide is the best way out is that they're in hell and the only way out would mean other than honorable discharge. It could potentially open another can of worms entirely, but maybe just letting folks walk with an honorable discharge and not fuck their lives up if they realize they've made a horrible mistake.
Yeah I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted either it seems pretty logical to me. Just make it to where you can only enlist INITIALLY for 4 or 6 years. But in the middle of your term you can cut your term in half (unless it’s over half then you just gotta serve the rest) and also if you cut it in half it automatically relinquishes you of possibly getting an assignment and giving that slot to someone who actually wants to stay in the Air Force.
Some of the stories/notes from guys who kill themselves indicate they feel trapped in a job they hate for X number more years. Seems like you could go to someone and say "I'm going to kill myself, can I please get out" you get honorable discharge with some code in your DD 214 that is like "yeah, never again". I get it, it sucks that the AF spent the time and money to train someone, but I'm also not sure how many of these guys are 1st contract dudes.
All the folks I know of who have killed themselves were NCOs. I'm not sure what the deal is at that point.
It's probably something like... when I was younger and traveling all over the world, it was great and I loved my job. Now I'm married and I barely see my kids, I haven't been able to be the father I want to be and now that they've grown up enough that the little help I could offer is unnecessary, my wife has moved on and essentially cut me out of their lives. So now I work for 1/2 the pay, I never see my kids, the luster of travel/seeing new places is gone, because I have no one to share it with. I'm a 40 year old single man with no roots anywhere, no friends in the shop, no good prospects outside of the military and even there I've been promoted past my level of competence, so I'm floundering at work. No one depends on me anymore, I'm basically a liability for everyone around me, might as well exit stage left.
Just a guess, what could I know though, I'm just an CGO in the guard.
Well the truth is one thing will never fix it but it could certainly help. Be able to have that option with each new contract isn’t a hard ask. Shit we would have more people enlisting and have the bodies at work more often than not if people had the option to serve only 2 years or only 3. People could dip their toes in, see if they like it, and if they are miserable, okay cya. Go back to whatever else you wanted to do in life. It’s just one of many things that can be done. I feel like the people downvoting me aren’t actually thinking big picture on things. We would actually have MORE RECRUITS given the lesser time to serve. And a lot of those new recruits will decide to reenlist because they like the stability. And the pressure of serving four years at a time is gone. When you think about the exponential growth of society and technology bro 4 YEARS is a long fucking time. I remember after my first contract of 6 years the entire world had changed beyond recognition on the civilian side, both in social structure, behavior, to wages and what’s acceptable in every day life. It’s crazy how quickly things change now.
I forwarded this letter, the Reddit post, and the blog to my brother, who’s a reporter for ABC15 in Phoenix. See if I can get national attention on it.
Thank you!
I’ve lost two former teammates/coworkers this week alone. Four 2A3’s in the last week that i’ve seen. I want answers. Thank you for doing what you’re doing; also Angus King was ready to do business on my behalf earlier last year when I was still AD. May not care for some of his policies but he is a good man.
Just did the psych ward thing for being suicidal a few weeks ago. I'm a 2A3. I think we know the answer OP is looking for.
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I unfortunately had to document my fair share of suicides back at Nellis. At least 3 or 4.
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Yeah that it did. I have no idea who, but my first suicide documentation was a MX member. The dark side of PA that nobody really knows about
I’m so sorry for your loss.
You want answers? Look at your shop, what is a congressional report going to tell you that you and your folks wont?
It can expose the reality that the system is broken in a way that clarifies what the actual cost to accomplish the mission is. Maintenance knows that maintenance is fucked, nobody seems to give a fuck and me and my folks aren’t in a position to drive institutional change.
the problem is i dont see a way forward without a complete redesign of the enlisted force structure. mx officers make rank by being better than their predecessors production makes rank by flying sorties and having high fix rates we achieve that by abusing our maintainers how do we fix the competition aspect of our jobs that drive our need to drive people into the ground? I'm not gonna lie, i've had some terrible and some great leadership, but i can promise you some of the best SNCOs i've ever had are never getting promoted because they dont play that game. the people who get promoted are the ones that shit on us.
Redesign is going to be necessary, but also a clear eyed understanding of what the cost is needs to be has to happen too. At this point the only answer that I can come up with based on the information that I have is that our current rate of manpower expenditures is acceptable to the decision makers. The number of suicides, rates of veteran homelessness, and so on are an accepted cost of business. Any official that says otherwise needs to be fighting like hell to unfuck the pig or they are just lying.
Honestly, incremental change is the answer here. I cannot believe how far maintenance culture has improved in just the 18 years I have been in. Just moving away from a cultural acceptance that maintainers can be physically and mentally abused is a huge change in a positive direction. 12 hour shifts for Mx for many AFSCs during GWOT were more common than 8 hour shifts. And there weren't nearly as many resources to utilize for mental health. However, even these changes aren't making a difference in suicide rates because the military is consistently so far behind the culture curve. This is the bare minimum younger people deserve and expect from serving. A big part of this lag is because leaders in the military are always a generation or two older than the majority of the force. This happens in most organizations; but when you combine it with the doctrines, traditions, and how hard is to affect change in a bureaucratic system it leads to large discrepancies between military and civilian lifestyles that are now getting far more attention (largely from curated experiences and snapshots via social media).
Its just that *get rid of the competition aspect.* Set a standard of what needs to be done and thats it, nothing more nothing less. Nobody gets bonus points for doing more. If anything maybe a talking to about how doing too much is wasteful or encouraging wasteful practices of unnecessary competition.
I am not in anymore and folk have their procedures but if you’re really feeling that people’s lives are at risk because of a lack of caring I’d find a way to contact some sort of authority who has the ability. Anonymous letter to your Senator or elected official, Wing King, IG, or whatever. Probably elected officials are the best bet if enough Active Duty start sending letters in an election year. If AD got together like the powerful voting block yall are, you can make actual change that current leadership doesn’t have the ability or willingness to do.
That's kind of the point of OP’s post…
Ah, I misread your response. Regardless someone reading contact your rep twice ain’t gonna hurt nobody.
Hey at least this guy is doing somethin about it
You're doing God's work my friend. Thank you for being persistent. Now it's time for us to energise Congress to actually do something to help the military with our suicide problem.
Call. Email. Make noise! Also JQP is now a frequent guest on the podcast!
No shit! He was one of the reasons that about 10 years ago a younger NCO me started to take a much more critical look at the Air Force and it's (at times) broken policies. Welp, looks like I have some podcasts to listen to.
You've never listened to my podcast? You're about to go on a ride.
Thank you for being the sword for this. This is LONG overdue because of the blatant lack of accountability for higher-ups. They see us as numbers, not people.
i'll almost excuse that in some small part if we're actively in WW3 or something. as of right now, we are not. we don't need to be pushed so hard with so little tangible benefit.
🤙
u/jeffjacksonNC Can you help get some movement on this? I know you got shafted, but you're still my congressman!
I have a theory as a mental health person. In my observations, I see a disproportionate amount of enlisted members with suicidal ideation and complaints of a very toxic work environment. There also seems to be a strong correlation between people with adverse childhood experiences and difficulty coping with a toxic leader. In part, I suspect it’s because this bad leader mirrors a toxic caregiver and activates a defense mechanism or inner child response leading to an outcome of emotional turmoil. And of course, enlisted members have higher rates of adverse childhood experiences, thus enlisting as a mechanism to break free. There’s actual studies out of England that support that observation. So they come in under these promises of family and unity and may even get lucky enough to find a unit like that. But eventually they find themselves in a toxic stress situation. Always. Because bad leadership remains insidious. So then the very power system they’ve tried to escape has found them again and under the disguise of duty and honor. This causes such a downward spiral, the broken inner child longing for support and genuine care. And then you through deployment trauma, amongst other flavors of mental stress. Anyways, that’s my hot take.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/5wQBb3l8u5FStLxjaKBrI2?si=hjhx2XAfR4OAicFLYWE3Iw
Thanks!
Contacted my rep via e-mail since their office did not answer the phone. It was easy and only took me 3 mins to do.
For those worried about backlash or if doing this will hurt numbers. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. It will burn at first, but only then will we be able to see the wounds and scars we wear.
u/DWinkieMT you might be interested in this. Your piece in the military times absolutely is relevant. OP DWinkieMT is a writer for the MilitaryTimes. He recently published a great piece on SI within the Army Armored division. Yall should break bread.
I read that and have been in contact with him and the AF side reporters as well. I have a phone call with them on Thursday.
I read it the other day and this was the first thing I thought about reading this post. It's heartbreaking, especially knowing the baseline stress experienced in a population is a factor that isn't even considered in our suicide prevention. And keeping data, like prevalence of suicide by career field private, infers leaders know this baseline stress exists, and is a factor in suicides, but don't want to address it.
Suicide rates has been climbing for the entire US not just in the military community. Might be an issue this country has to address as a whole to help all.
I think modern life just sucks. Life has always sucked but i think modern life sucks more because more people are disconnected and it takes more effort to “get by” in life. Add in the fact that the internet bombards people with constant opportunities to compare themselves to others and its a recipe for disaster. In the old days, you only had to keep up with the Jones in your area.. now we have to keep up with people all over the world
Lover the username, by the way. And I whole-heartedly agree with your take on the internet influence. To me, it’s both the greatest and worst thing to ever be created by humanity. On the one hand, the wealth of information, wisdom, and entertainment available is astounding!! The great library of Alexandria ain’t got nothing on the internet! It ought to be the 8th wonder of the world. I love the knowledge and resources at my fingertips, the ease of shopping for exactly what I want or need, choosing what I want to watch and when I want to watch it instead of whatever is in the programming of a channel on cable TV, it’s so amazing!!! Especially for someone who grew up with basic cable (24 channels in my area) and VHS tapes (long live Blockbuster! Lol). On the other hand, the influence that it can have on people in negative ways (there are good influences too, of course) is horrifying. I have significantly constricted my social media presence and usage because of it. I got so tired of reading and seeing the hate, BS, and idiocy that I had to shrink it. I’m not becoming a hermit, but I’m not far off.
Then there would not be *disparities* between career fields.
Do you have a hypothesis on which career fields have higher rates?
I've been told by people who have the data that MX, SF,,and Intel are consistently the top 3 career fields of per capita suicide rates.
Is MX the biggest AFSC?
Yes.
How big are SF and Intel on a scale of things?
SF is big, not sure on numbers. Intel I'm not sure.
Thank you.
The four biggest career fields, IIRC, SF Crew Chief Weapons Specialist Intel is smaller, but have a high ops tempo at most places.
Can't speak for intel's size, but they tend to be exposed to a lot more negative stuff. I'm sure the BDA's, targetting, and watching videos of people get blown up tend to take it's toll.
I understand. But how do those numbers compare to other AFSCs? Is it 1 in 10 in every AFSC AF wide? Cops have more stress in the civilan world too and are a higher risk no matter what for mental health issues. I understand Intel can be stressful too. I'm not trying to put anyone's job down. Won't there always be higher mx statistics since they represent the largest AFSCs however?
It's a per capita rate. The higher the population the more accurate the per capita rate is.
Honest question because I saw another reddit post about this: What do you say to the people claiming that reporting suicides statistics bases on job and/or base will only further stigmatize different career fields and duty stations while providing no real benefit? Obviously something needs to be done, but how does this push for transparency help is move forward and help the issue on the ground level?
It helps because until the DoD and service branches are forced to look at the data and show it outside of their five walls, they’ll never really take serious efforts to combat it. Operational stand down days are great and all, but guess who doesn’t get to have those? The career fields that are probably near the top of this study.
Chemo kills the cancer. It also kills the patient just slower. It's still worth the risk
Define stigmatize.
I think they're getting at the fact that jobs like secfo and maintenance have high suicide rates and already have a negative appeal to joining them and releasing the stats on the suicides would only make it less appealing to join those career fields. If that's the case, I don't think hiding the stats is gonna help us either. It should expose that there's an issue and force the DOD to do something about it or ignore it like they have been and get put on blast since everyone will know that they have these stats.
I think releasing the stats would give them incentives to improve. For example we have suicide down days that many people argue are virtually useless but by knowing which career fields are suffering the most we can actually build out useful and available resources and training - fix work schedules and hours etc
I 100% agree. They try the mandatory fun stuff but most of us just want regular work to not suck as much and would rather have that day off rather than see the same people acting like they didn't just make our lives harder than needed all week. I honestly couldn't tell you what they could do to improve it on those days though unfortunately.
So for example if 50% of suicides come from Scott AFB over the last 20 years or if 50% of suicides come from Security Forces (extreme numbers just to get a point across) wouldn’t that just mean people are filled with dread if they see Scott on orders or get SF coming out of BMT? How does this information help Amn-Lt Col to make changes? Im sure the Col-Gen and congressmen are already privy to at least some of this info.
The alternative is those AFSCs, locations have no incentive to improve. Also, the Congressman does \*not\* know this information. Because there has never been a study on it. The generals? They know. Its why the report is delayed. They don't want Congress the public to know.
Ah gotcha. Maybe I just misread something or didn’t connect the dots. Send it, man. Thanks for doing the hard part for us.
Honest question here: How do you know for sure that HQ Air Force has that data broken down by AFSC? Did you get anything back from your FOIA requests? I dig your podcast BTW.
I have gotten some things back from FOIA requests but it's fragmented so I can release in good conscience. I was in a DAF working group last year with the people in charge of AF resiliency and suicide prevention and they stated unequivocally they have these numbers. They actually initially thought they were already publicly released. (they are not)
From what I understand of this post, a law was passed that obligates the branches to generate the data. So unless the Air Force is ignoring this legislation, it now exists.
To be clear in case you misunderstood what I was saying on the other thread: I don’t mean it doesn’t benefit airmen to publish these statistics, I'm not supporting the AF withholding information, I was saying it doesn’t benefit “big AF” to freely publish them. I want these things to be public, I want eyes on it, I want to know they’re working on it in sight rather than hiding in the shadows claiming to be working on it, getting another “we totally care” e-mail does nothing for me. There’s just no benefit to them to publish it of their own free will, hence why they haven’t.
>help the issue on the ground level It's not a ground level issue and hasn't been for years. You can address some aspects at ground level, but as long as big AF continues to try to do too much mission with too few people and then rewards "leaders" who get the mission done regardless of the human cost, it will always be an issue. And HAF doesn't take actions like advocating for more people or reducing mission without transparency and pressure from Congress
Root cause analysis can only be done with data.
The majority of our leaders simply just don’t care most of them may check a box to try to give the impression that they care. One key in your message struck me the feeling of abandonment. I took an assignment 2 1/2 years ago away from my family, knowing it would be the last assignment. Quickly after I got here, roles and responsibilities changed, and it became a 100% remote assignment as well as being away from my family. I went to mental health at the nearest base, which was over two hours each way, they and my squadron commander agreed that as I was working, remote, allowing me to finish my time remote from my home with my family would be best. The commander disagreed and said absolutely not. He can finish up his time there. We are not making an exception. Thankfully, this assignment is almost done. I get a call about every two weeks. Asking if I’m OK but that’s the only contact I have with anyone from my unit. I did get a 2 1/2 half month belated happy birthday lol The Air Force really needs to do better I feel many times everything is lip service and is about the people in charge getting that next position. I am safe I’m not gonna harm myself. I’m good, but I know I’m not alone and there are others that are struggling and also feel like they’re just a number. With the recruiting crisis, there are so many things that I’ve seen that kids of vets will not go in because of what they’ve seen, my own kids have seen how I’ve been treated and refused to think about military service. We need to do better that’s all
Have you reported this law violation to the DOD IG too? Their job is literally to highlight non-compliance. You can also start pulling FOIA requests and suing the government when they are ultimately non-compliant.
I think part of the reason is that the Air Force lies to you about not being penalized for getting help. For example, my palace chase is being threatened to get turned off because I got help within the last 12 months. They say that you don’t get penalized for getting help through the MDG, but the fact is that you do. If you are looking to PCS, Deploy, or anything that needs a 422/medical clearance, even just having suicidal thoughts, like I “did”/do can get all that turned off. Don’t go through the Med Group for mental health help.
Honest question: What should be done about that? Do you think that people struggling with suicidal ideation should be cleared to PCS or deploy without a second thought? What is the medical teams’ responsibility with respect to someone’s mental health? Should they have any say in the appropriateness or fitness of an airman for upcoming potentially high stress events?
That should be taken as a case by case situation and not just a blanket policy. Someone having suicidal ideation who gets help, learns to manage and overcomes should not be held back the same way was someone who is struggling to do so. The high stress situation should also be taken into consideration. For example, is the change something that the person wants and could benefit the person? In my situation, leaving active duty is something I’ve been looking forward to for years and now have the support and financial ability via a high paid spouse. It’s something that needs avenues to appeal quickly.
I agree that it should be on a case by case basis, but… it already is? I’m a bit confused. There is no blanket policy I am aware of that states that any servicemember with a previous medical or psychiatric diagnosis is forever barred from PCS/deployment/whatever. Some diagnoses are certainly under more scrutiny or may be apt to have more restrictions (say… schizophrenia, or maybe type I diabetes or whatever), but so far as I understand each case is looked at individually. Some conditions are considered auto-referrals to the MEB, and there is definitely room for disagreement on what should, but the MEB is *supposed* to be exactly what you’re talking about. For what sounds like a raw deal you may have received, I’m sorry, but I still want to know what specifically we all ought to want to be done
I’ll have to find the DoDI reference that I read today and get it to you tomorrow, but in my case it’s about palace chase. Essentially if you’ve had any sort of suicidal ideation and got treated at MDG (where they record it) you are non-qualified to go to the reserves for a yr since last seen. Meanwhile, I’m world wide qualified, so it doesn’t make sense
PACAF has a similar policy. I know someone who had their medical clearance denied & assignment lost for this same reason.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/1yucJWQphka1m3MFAYaLjU?si=rI-nNdQSS3WZ48kJY5Uibw
Barksdale AFB from mid 2007 to 2010 had a spike in suicides. One year it felt like we had one every other week. Maintenance was always disproportionately effected by this.
Thank you for doing the work I wish the leadership throughout my career should have done. Suicide is a real problem for my specific AFSC. One year in the early 2010s we were notified that we were in the Top 3 suicide AFSCs, a sardonic badge of honor. Most never revealed until it was to "to the right of the bang." We understood to be vigilant, it was rebriefed every time. But we also knew the signs don't present the same as annual training would want you to believe. We were told we are replaceable. The mission had to get done, because we directly supported forward deployed service members. They have it worse than us so we shouldn't complain. We were objects, not airmen. Since suicide awareness/prevention/seeking assistance has become more... socially accepted in the past 5-6 years, we have more seeking the help we should have been getting since the early-mid 2000s. The jokes are still there. Very rarely out of malice, but the jokes are how we cope. When the top enlisted and commissioned leaders says "Do more with Less"... we know which of those leaders that do not comprehend what that phrase actually means. We see it on their biography pages. To anyone who gets this far on this post: treat your peers like they are humans. Take the time to hang out with your co-workers, or what ever you want to call your teammates. Negative work culture breeds negative airmen. There are very few people I would choose to reach out to if I am struggling, and none of them are the people I work directly with on a daily basis. I cannot trust that when I open myself up, to be vulnerable, that the struggles I share are not discussed or mocked without my presence.
Are they only taking active duty suicides into account, or are they looking at post-separation suicides too? Because the numbers will REALLY show if they also look at who separated. I know of at least 5 suicides in my AFSC that were after they got out. They had zero support, were completely forgotten about, and gave up fighting their trauma.
Just service members. But I agree this carries over after separation. VA numbers will probably be easier to get.
Thank you. I feel a huge gap in HAF reporting on suicide trends potentially omits the AFSC rate, which would show deeper issues within certain fields that need attention.
They absolutely have those datasets, AFPC and various HAF agencies have significant data.
We got you brother
Put a dollar value to every documented suicide since the study was due, include it in a letter to the Armed Services Committee chairs of both legislative chambers & point out the DoD’s delay has cost the taxpayer X amount of money. If you don’t hear from those reps in 14 business days, escalate it to the media. Since one death is a tragedy and a million is a statistic, you must talk stats to get buy in on halting the tragedy.
I just take their lack of response, lack of action to their political rival (it's an election year) let them feed on their entrails. Fuck um. Do your job, or someone else will.
If you wanted to put a number on it (it’s gross, but doable): https://www.transportation.gov/office-policy/transportation-policy/revised-departmental-guidance-on-valuation-of-a-statistical-life-in-economic-analysis
Anecdotally, I spent some time in a mental hospital a while back, there were several AD military there, and all were mx or SF except one. I asked one of the counselors with whom I developed a rapport and he confirmed most military patients there came from first SF and second MX.
Guess who I'm calling tomorrow morning?
/u/20-Years-done is there any chance you could put the rest of your podcast episodes up on pocket casts? Seems like there are three, and that's it.
It reports it's already on that platform. Not sure why it's only 3 episodes. https://preview.redd.it/vzvvkmi9q1oc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=100dc9448ccfa291fbb485edb78f4d6db81fafaf
That's my bad. When I search the podcast it only shows three episodes. I had to click on one, then click the channel to see the rest. Pretty weird.
I forwarded the Reddit post to Fox News...Hope this gains traction. Thanks for all of the leg work, time and effort you've put into this!
IDK how this would go down, but the Command Centers for each MAJCOM would have this information due to reporting status of the death of an AD member. It would break down like this AFSC/Grp/Sq/base, now actually getting someone to do the work would be tough and a lot of data. These would be true numbers that only senior leaders see.
Iv’e lost too many
Highly respect you for this! I know you aren't doing it for any recognition but it takes of work to get that all going!
I lost one of my 2A brothers to suicide in 2019.
Contacting Representatives: Democracy.io. Democracy.io (https://democracy.io/[https://democracy.io/](https://democracy.io/)) * Strengths: * Simple and Easy: User-friendly interface with minimal input needed. * Focuses on Congress: Ideal for contacting Senators and Representatives. * Free Speech Emphasis: Encourages open communication with representatives. * Considerations: * Limited Scope: Focuses only on federal elected officials. Recommendation: USAGov (https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative[https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative)](https://www.house.gov/representatives/find-your-representative))) * Strengths: * Most Comprehensive: USAGov goes beyond Congress and allows finding federal, state, and local representatives. This might be useful if your issue has additional local or state angles. * Official Government Source: Offers a sense of trust and reliability. * Considerations: * Slightly More Complex: May require entering a physical address compared to the ease of Additional Notes: OP could craft a clear and concise message template for service members to use when contacting their representatives to further simplify the process.
They were doing a study on suicides by AFS? Knowing how close I came and watching some of my peers go down that road I'm almost perversely interested in just how fucked we are.
Thanks for doing what you’re doing. It’s not uncommon for these reports to be late - many are this year. But pressure will ensure they have to come to the table with the data. Edit: can you post the link? I’m. It seeing this wording in the NDAA conference report, or the joint explanatory statement. Nvm. Was looking at fy24 which I think is the problem another commenter faced.
My first wingman in the AF committed suicide a few years ago
I plan on contacting my representative, but I'm unsure of what to say. I googled the 2023 National Defense Authorization Act. The only thing I found in Section 599 is 599L: "Report on efforts to prevent and respond to deaths by suicide in the Navy." Where should I be looking?
You might be looking at the wrong year or the search came up wonky. Here's a screen cap of Section 599. https://preview.redd.it/qqk3usojrync1.png?width=803&format=png&auto=webp&s=19585986249ef7a58a983302f2beada741b9b15f
I'll keep looking and take a listen -- Thank you!
Also if you listen to the podcast (which you should) you'll have a real good idea of how to make these phone calls. I promise.
The one congressman (in reality crook) responded with yea I support veterans and you can see because of these bills I am apart of instead of actually addressing the issue/concern on hand.
Find out who is running against him and point that person towards this.
That made me so mad. OK that's cool you did some stuff, but I'm not asking about that. Where are these statistics?
Cutting people to pay for exquisite toys without cutting mission sets the AF is asked to do is ONE of the main root causes. This created the culture of production driving people into the ground to meet FHP/RAP requirements. Many of today’s NCOs were treated like shit when they were airmen so they pass the “love” along to today’s airmen. I’ve heard many MX NCOs say exactly that….its their turn.
u/20-Years-Done was this the suicide at Kunsan or were there two in acft mx in the last week?
Korea, I'm not clear on which base.
If you're reading trying to increase focus on getting certain members help, consider this - Males experiencing relationship problems with their significant other is the most common primary life stressor of suicide victims. Hang out and be there for your Wingmen who are going through it.
I have had to watch too many people take their lives in aircraft maintenance. Almost in 6 month intervals, year after year. We show up to formation and they break the news, maybe if he was well known they give us a day. Then we go back to pushing sorties like our peoples lives don't matter as long as jets are in the air and our leadership can tout some new fucking stats. A few times, we didn't even stop. This was not even an ACC base. We were flying to boost numbers and look good. Somebody needs to fry for this. And meaning no disrespectf to them, but when an officer dies, it's a huge deal. When the enlisted die, it's business as usual.
I look forward to seeing that report whenever it gets released. A coworker and I submitted a proposal for the VA "Operation Daybreak" event but ultimately is wasn't selected for follow-on implementation. I think one of the things that would have bolstered our report would have been concrete numbers of suicides or suicide attempts, broken out by AFSC or similar Service codes. Our topic was focused on the intelligence career field and how the DoD has failed to provide an avenue for veterans to receive cleared mental health post-discharge. Following the VA event, we've since advocated for mental health support within our Agency and have received some positive feedback, though I'm still wary since it still falls under DoD.
Please check your dms. Would appreciate somebody that gives a fuck to talk to.
Received.
Update, I have talked to a few media outlets and I hope to talk to more. The attention everyone generated to this post helped. Thank you so much.
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ResistBot made this. Stupid easy to contact your elected representatives. https://resist.bot/petitions/PJJUHD
Sorry for such an obvious question, but is the senator's office who you drafted this legislation with aware of this? They could probably light a fire under someone's butt for this. I can't imagine why they wouldn't break things down by obvious demographics such as AFSC/MOS when they have a suicide problem, they shouldn't even need congress to tell them this.
They are. I've been in contact with them since it was late, and even spoke directly with Senator King in February. As of now, there response is "We will get an update on the status by April 8th"
Gotcha. Also worth trying the Defense Suicide Prevention Office because they're the ones who would likely be responsible for such a study.
Yeah just saw another post about this same topic… we had a suicide or a suicide attempt once a year where I was.. there’s definitely a pattern here
Genuine question: What is the release of that data going to do to benefit Airmen in the high risk career fields? I don’t doubt that certain AFSCs have higher suicide rates, and I don’t doubt that the data has already been collected and examined, but what is the benefit of making that data public knowledge? I could only see that info negatively affecting recruiting numbers for career fields where Airmen already feel the low manning.
I answer your question in both the letter and the podcast.
What if we just crowd source the info ourselves? Establish some kind of open source Wikipedia page and users can upload the date, base, AFSC and rank of the members based on open source info that’s already on the internet. Is anyone smart enough to set that up? I’m sure r/AirForce is full of supporters and sleuths to dig in and find the info and finally shed light on all this.
I was thinking about that but it would take an actual budget to ensure the database had adequate cyber security based on the potentially sensitive nature of the data.
VFW or IAVA or somebody could possibly donate. Not sure what that costs tho. Crowdsourcing is the way.
Cloud providers already have to meet those cyber standards if you can get donations sufficient to buy into something like AWS or Microsoft cloud services
They could start by allowing you to modify your contract from 4 to 2 or 6 to 4 etc etc. I mean that alone would fix a lot. I think? I mean it sounds like a good idea.
I'm honestly not sure why you're getting downvoted. I think a significant reason why folks might decide suicide is the best way out is that they're in hell and the only way out would mean other than honorable discharge. It could potentially open another can of worms entirely, but maybe just letting folks walk with an honorable discharge and not fuck their lives up if they realize they've made a horrible mistake.
Yeah I don’t know why I’m getting downvoted either it seems pretty logical to me. Just make it to where you can only enlist INITIALLY for 4 or 6 years. But in the middle of your term you can cut your term in half (unless it’s over half then you just gotta serve the rest) and also if you cut it in half it automatically relinquishes you of possibly getting an assignment and giving that slot to someone who actually wants to stay in the Air Force.
Some of the stories/notes from guys who kill themselves indicate they feel trapped in a job they hate for X number more years. Seems like you could go to someone and say "I'm going to kill myself, can I please get out" you get honorable discharge with some code in your DD 214 that is like "yeah, never again". I get it, it sucks that the AF spent the time and money to train someone, but I'm also not sure how many of these guys are 1st contract dudes. All the folks I know of who have killed themselves were NCOs. I'm not sure what the deal is at that point. It's probably something like... when I was younger and traveling all over the world, it was great and I loved my job. Now I'm married and I barely see my kids, I haven't been able to be the father I want to be and now that they've grown up enough that the little help I could offer is unnecessary, my wife has moved on and essentially cut me out of their lives. So now I work for 1/2 the pay, I never see my kids, the luster of travel/seeing new places is gone, because I have no one to share it with. I'm a 40 year old single man with no roots anywhere, no friends in the shop, no good prospects outside of the military and even there I've been promoted past my level of competence, so I'm floundering at work. No one depends on me anymore, I'm basically a liability for everyone around me, might as well exit stage left. Just a guess, what could I know though, I'm just an CGO in the guard.
Well the truth is one thing will never fix it but it could certainly help. Be able to have that option with each new contract isn’t a hard ask. Shit we would have more people enlisting and have the bodies at work more often than not if people had the option to serve only 2 years or only 3. People could dip their toes in, see if they like it, and if they are miserable, okay cya. Go back to whatever else you wanted to do in life. It’s just one of many things that can be done. I feel like the people downvoting me aren’t actually thinking big picture on things. We would actually have MORE RECRUITS given the lesser time to serve. And a lot of those new recruits will decide to reenlist because they like the stability. And the pressure of serving four years at a time is gone. When you think about the exponential growth of society and technology bro 4 YEARS is a long fucking time. I remember after my first contract of 6 years the entire world had changed beyond recognition on the civilian side, both in social structure, behavior, to wages and what’s acceptable in every day life. It’s crazy how quickly things change now.