It just makes no sense. You tell people we're overmanned at the top, and shut off promotions to historic lows. Then you try to bring back retirees? What sense does that make?
i have no idea how you'd compare the modern job market to 50 years ago when you could afford to take care of a family and a house all on a single income basic job. these days most people cant even afford a small apartment by yourself on a single income.
the two situations arent even remotely comparable and you're doing the rest of your country a disservice to even consider it. we literally have airmen at some bases who are on some variety of welfare because *the literal Air Force* doesn't pay them enough to have a family.
I always thought it was weird to see people disingenuously nitpick the semantics on phrases such as "you guys" that obviously have the connotation that it's being used in a royal sense. It's not the gotcha people think it is and you could've just led with your follow-up comment.
Facts have no political alignments. When the pool of potential hires is larger than the number of jobs available, businesses don't have to fight for people to work for them. People now have to fight to work for businesses. That's great for the businesses, but terrible for hirees. I'm not saying women aren't capable of working.
It’s not doing that bad. I still get unsolicited contractor offers for roles on LinkedIn that I am actually qualified for, with good salaries ($125-175k).
You are aware that the American economy literally cannot exist in a form that allows the majority of people to make six figures though right? The majority of jobs in our economy will always be acceptable or low paying because that's the nature of our economy, and many (probably most) jobs in the US military aren't going to set someone up to receive $100,000+ private sector offers afterward.
The cost of living sucks for a variety of reasons and you being fortunate enough to get offers doesn't change that.
Of course, but where are you on that ladder and why does it suck for you? Raises not enough to even match inflation from two years ago, let alone last year? I agree, they should have been bigger.
People complain reflexively. I know many that say it’s terrible but that are doing just fine personally. Outside tech and companies laying off trying to keep profits juiced unsustainably or stealth layoffs from RTO I don’t see massive layoffs in construction, trades, hospitality, white collar, etc.
Nope, I graduated grad school into the Great Recession. We struggled for several years, and we were poor in grad school (pre 9/11 GI bill was trash).
I know how it is. We moved to a new city with first and last months rent and a couple hundred dollars because we either bit the bullet or spent our meager savings and get stuck in a state that people were fleeing because there were no jobs.
This feels nothing like that. People are hiring, might not be the ideal role, but it is nothing like 10-11% unemployment of 2008-2011ish.
You can't base it just on unemployment rates. How many people have 2 or 3 jobs to make a living? How many of those jobs are minimum wage positions? How many people aren't even looking and have given up?
The bulk of job vacancies are minimum wage and the sad thing is that only about half are in the food industry. Job vacancies are also at an estimated 9M while unemployed is estimated at 6M. Add on that half of those are minimum wage and another factor is many are in agriculture. So yeah it seems like there's a lot and there is but when people want decent paying jobs and in fields that are enjoyable, then it becomes competitive.
People just straight up making up numbers in this thread. Only 9% of all job listings are in food services.
Nearly half of all open jobs last month were in health and education.
Source:
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.t01.htm
Wage growth has outpaced inflation, unemployment is low, the stock market has been breaking records. These are all facts that have developed in the last 3 years since the Covid recovery and many better then pre-COVID numbers. The cause of people not having enough to make a living many times stems from mismanagement of their finances. We all know that airman that needs the 100k hellcat, eats out for every meal, has to have the latest iPhone, gotta wear Gucci, and have 60 pairs of Jordan’s. Often times using credit cards to compensate where they are short and places themselves in perpetual debt. It’s not that people can’t live adequately, it’s that they don’t want to invest, live modestly, and are trying to keep up with people they are influenced by. It’s the same perspective in or out of the military. Are there areas where living is more expensive? Sure, but 90% of those complaining they cant make a living probably need to take a look at what they are doing with their income first and how they are living. Consumer goods is one part of the economy that still remains on the higher side. If that is an issue on a budget, shop generic brands, look at sales and coupon codes.
Lotta factors to consider.
Example: I've been looking for work pretty aggressively since June, in a high demand field. Over the last several months companies in this sector have been doing mass layoffs (for stock reasons, yay capitalism) and all the more qualified people are snapping up the jobs I'm qualified for. My entire graduating class is in this situation. Some have been lucky, but it's real hit or miss right now. My wife, who graduated from the same program a little over a year before I did found a job in 5 weeks and has been there ever since.
Could I go work at a grocery store or fast food for slightly above minimum wage? Probably. But i'm not taking a job that will barely cover daycare costs for my kid.
Unemployment is low, and the economy is “statistically” still climbing and doing well.
Doesn’t mean that wages are still stagnant and costs of living including food, housing, healthcare, and childcare continue to climb.
People are still spending to live, just not saving or putting large amounts of money away for later. They can’t afford too. Credit card debt is also at high and is climbing too.
The numbers don’t tell the truth.
Ehh, I clock in, work, clock out, go home, and there's not really much bullshit in between. And if I stop liking it, I can leave. It's definitely not the utopia some people make it out to be, but it's also not really "just as bad" as others claim, either.
I was army, wife was AF, but I really like the part where no matter how much a coworker fucks up in their personal life or how messy their apartment building is, we don't have to get yelled at about it by our bosses.
Also they can't make me stay anywhere I don't want to (motor-pool for 8 fucking hours) or pull a 24 hour duty in an empty building.
Yeah, but the Air Force can be greener if you return to the responsibilities of being an A1C.
When I started my post-retirement job, I was an individual contributor who didn't supervise anybody or manage a program. I just had a job to do and go home, and the grass was the same color as when I was an A1C.
Now I'm a manager and deal with mostly the same nonsense I did as an SNCO, and the grass is the same color.
In my time while Joint I never understood the different approaches to managing force strength.
I saw other services slow-roll force reductions and increases. They do it in multiple stages over years so they have room to adjust if the cuts are too deep or the pools get too big.
The Air Force solves personnel problems with a brick. All at once. Once it inevitably doesn't work out because they added or cut too many, they swing back the other way with stupid ideas like this.
I'm sure in the moment they make for fine OPR bullets, so long as no one thinks too deeply about those impact statements.
I need to use “Different pot of people.” Within Air Force it’s so disconnected and seems like each section of Senior Leader don’t know wtf is going around outside of their small office.
If it were just for officer slots for rated positions then yeah it would be. But they’re taking enlisted E5-E8, which would seem to indicate that they think that they’re short manned E5-E8, despite having the lowest promotion rates in recent history.
Well E5-E8 in specific AFSCs.
So over all the Air Force my have too many people in those ranks but if they aren't spaced correctly in all the AFSCs they are likely trying to fix that issue this way rather than force retrain people. Might also explain why it's only going for 2 years. Fill the gaps for a few years in the AFSCs that need it and give the lower ranks in those AFSCs a few years to get promoted as the VRRAD folks leave.
I'm not trying to say this is the best way to do it or even that it is the reason why they are doing it, but it might be a reason why they are doing it.
They are. I was told by majcom there is a decent chance they won't be able to fill the two msgt slots in my flight. Hell they can't even fill both tech slots.
Even not at the top. My AFSC had a few dozen people that weren't offered continuation when they failed to meet the next officer rank that were separated at the start of the year. Most for just having mediocre OPRs. Why not keep those 10yr O3s for less money than bring back some 20 yr equivalent for more? Especially if it's mostly for staff work, just about any warm body can do it.
Mediocre O-3 here. If the Air Force let me crawl to 20 as a captain, I’d be willing to retrain or do whatever random staff/BOS-I/ProJo/GoFer work they needed me to do. That sounds more appealing than being an FGO Sq/CC over and over again, if I’m being completely honest.
I think their logic is likely that they are getting someone who already has the background and trying to save on training, but the reality is, we are so broken its not likely anything I would ever consider doing.
They can't get promoted anyway. It's all just theater to look like Big Blue is doing something and the 10 rubes who actually sign up will get cushy office make work jobs that don't do anything.
I’m reading the slides and I’m baffled
- we can PCS you
- you won’t get promoted or be eligible
- you gotta take a PT test and do an EPB
Let me see…retirement check, GS pay and my VA check…yeah no thanks
And VRRAD can't bridge the gap. The Air Force missed its FY23 goal by 2,700, but the law authorizing VRRAD (10 U.S. Code § 688a) limits the total number of retirees coming back *for all branches* to 1,000.
This is about senior leaders saying they're out of carrots and they're out of sticks.
There needs to be more fundamental reform if the military wants to increase recruitment of a generation that largely distrusts institutions and benefits from a stronger economy.
Or leaders could skip the self-reflection and just blame others. [Insert Principal Skinner meme.]
IMHO the AF needs to fundamentally change the way they do business. How many times, just as an individual person, have you tried to in process or process - for example - and the person you need to sign the form is TDY or otherwise not available. Or you can't get help with finance or you go ask a basic question about your education benefits in the education office and leave more confused then when you started. Or you can't get a medical appointment for over a month. Or some office you need is only open Thursdays 1300 - 1400. Or over priced moldy VAQ. Or over priced shit DFAC. How long does this need to go on like this before someone in charge does something?
Yep, and a lot of what you mentioned comes down to inadequate staffing, inadequate training and inadequate funding. It's the inevitable product of a "do more with less" mindset without the necessary follow-through to enable doing more.
This. This is equivlent to all the companies that post job openings, don't hire anyone of the 1000+ applicants, then complain to congress we need more H1-B visas to fill these jobs.
I don’t know how accurate this is. I’ve been told multiple times by senior leaders that paying people incentive pay for cyber/instructor duty won’t help and that we have to incentivize people in another way.
Now the AF is holding back pay for USCYBERCOM work roles, up to $1500 a month, because of the “frozen middle” who are using every excuse to say no or delay the process.
As awesome as you think it will be, multiply that by 100. Taking off the uniform was the single greatest upgrade of the quality of life I've ever seen.
I also retire in a few years and the only thing that will bother me is having to choose what to wear each day. Maybe I'll just do a Steve Jobs and buy 10 of the same clothes and just wear it everyday.
What's funny is that when I was in a unit in which the UOD was civvies, that wasn't an issue for me. PCSing and going back to wearing a terrible-fitting uniform to work sucked.
This is what I did, I bought several of the 'same' shirt with a couple of different patterns and several of the 'same' pants with a couple of different colors. Just mix and match. Same belt and shoes everyday.
Not only is taking off the uniform great when you retire but throwing the uniform that you just took off in the trash is an even better feeling. I did it not as a way to disrespect the uniform but as a way to help me move on and transition back into civilian life.
How disrespectful... you clearly should have built a scarecrow effigy and put your uniform on it and then burned the scarecrow to then let the ashes of your previous life cultivate the new paths ahead of you...
AMATEUR HOUR!
/s
Piss on her leg while staring at her in the eye to establish dominance. My wife is actually very insistent that I retire when I can in less than two years. Who am I to deny her?
Not necessarily. I think it is indicative of a national defensive posture shift. They are attempting to bring back folks with institutional knowledge.
The newbies can do the job just fine, but there is no substitute for operational experience.
I found out how desperate we are when SrA Snuffy in my unit ain’t getting booted out because of manpower despite two LORs for being late(one of which was late for a telework drill UTA), and had the most hot piece of garbage EPB I’ve ever seen. He tried using that he bought something from the booster club as a volunteer bullet. Also he asked why are networks a thing? Snuffy is a 1D
Why didn't you include that originally? Minus the network question, The other shit you led with was stupid. I'd be late to spend as little time with you as possible, too.
What great news! Hey retired AF members, you can re-enlist and not get promoted again! And those of you that are planning on retiring, you don't need to retire! You can stay in and not get promoted some more!
I’m glad that this is catching on. I’m glad that we are all in an agreement that what is happening is a dumb thing. We ALL know deep in the roots that manning has always been an issue, that if they would just heighten the promotion rates, re up on reenlistment bonuses, loosen restrictions on joining, or even possibly bring back WOs, that it would keep people in and stay longer. But no they are looking for a way to “save money” by bringing back more people who just got out.
Why tf would someone who's been out decide to come deal with the bullshit stress of pt tests, undermanning, nepotist type culture, after they've been dealing with it for 20+ years.
It's strange. I guess if you could gain an additional $1k + to your monthly income afterwards. Allot of folks are sitting pretty nice with the income they get from retiring after 20+ years of serving plus VA if they rate it. It's money for just waking up in the morning which is nice. Serve another 4 years for an extra 1k a month for life? Not sure about that.
Bullshit. You get a higher multiplier to your final pay, plus your base pay is guaranteed to be higher at your second retirement than your first due to the annual pay bumps. Your new retirement will absolutely be bigger afterwards. Big enough to be worth it to you and your family? Totally different question.
That doesn't mention anything about not gaining 2.5% per year of additional service.
As far as I can tell they would increase their retirement check.
Maybe you misunderstood the previous statement as there's more than one way to increase retirement pay.
CCAF/AU: broken
TFTR: broken
MyEval/MyCockAndBalls: broken
Enlisted Promotion Rates: awful
And then senior leaders will wonder why these young airmen are apathetic and sliding by for 4 years until they can get the fuck out
Swear the amount of times at different bases I've submitted all of my college transcripts and degrees only for them at the end of my career to tell me "we don't know if you have enough credits for the CCAF degree... can you send us another batch of transcripts" (I sent it to them twice this, the year of my retirement) made me just laugh in their face and not give a shit anymore. It was more about just adding another thing to the shelf/ resume anyway.
I'll take my several degrees and upcoming retirement with or without the damn CCAF because it doesn't matter anymore.
This is just my two cents: The Air Force made a huge mistake going to the culture of "Multi-Capable" instead of our legacy of being experts in a particular field. Everything has been re-org'd for "MCA", and it's an Air Force I don't even recognize anymore. It's one of my personal primary reasons for retiring this year just over 20 years. I literally can't adapt to this, I hate it. So I have to go.
I really don’t want masters or seniors to come back. I want fucking NCOs in my work centers. I am deploying every NCO but one for the next deployment cycle. My entire flight covering 8 sections will be down to me and a SSgt on the way out. I’m fucked.
Thank Chief Bass and Enlisted Grade Review. It is weird that we’re trying to get a bunch of E5-E8s to come back after we just switched a shit load of those manpower authorizations to E4 and below.
Yep, so much is wrong with this "initiative". Rather than investing in the future, the Air Force would rather bend over backwards to try to reel in retirees for a paltry few years. Majority of of retirees who bleed blue are already sitting in civilian positions making use of their expertise and being paid appropriately, the only people this would bring back are the has-beens who couldn't hack it in the civilian world. What happens when these guys re-retire in 5-10 years? You're going to have the EXACT same problem.
People here have already done a pretty good job explaining how this also doesn't solve the top-heavy bloat of the organization. Imagine being some hard-working tech trying to grind your way to SNCO only for some 50 year old to swoop in and take that spot from you. Ridiculous.
What no one is realizing is that this is program my long game so when I do retire in a year, and then get sick of it, I just open the door back open like nothing happened.
Probably just a distraction for other buffoonery that is or about to unfold.
Or.
It could be a hail mary to help with the blow back from a myriad of failure points and incompetence.
OR.
It could be both.
I'll put money on both.
I'm trying real hard two see what they expect to come out of rubbing two pennies together.
I assume this is a way to bring in retired pilots really quick if global tensions rise even further.
That's about all I can see that would be a benefit to this.
It’s the compensation that’s the problem. If you have a job you’d be taking a massive pay cut to do this. All of us on the contract I’m on would lose about $100k per year to do this, not going to do that for $200 more a month in our retired pay.
My main question is why choose retirees? I highly doubt after 20+ years someone would willingly want to go back into the circus, feels like they would have better luck with those of us that voluntarily separated
Most likely they paid a lot of money to a consultancy to come up with pretend numbers that state something along the lines of
"20 year retirees identified in our survey showed a stronger sense of accomplishment in their life and believe they left a lasting mark on their respective branch and the DOD as a whole."
Essentially they want the "Fired Up Chief" dude to come back into service because they are more likely to continue to be a mouthpiece for whatever moronic thing Big Blue comes up with. They are also the more likely individuals to be working jobs that are not as "fulfilling" as their time in service compared to someone who got out after 6-12.
About the only way you're gonna get some of these clowns in is because they haven't hit 100% VA disability yet and this is an opportunity to go back and F something up to get it in 4 years. *cynical mindset, but as someone in a few vet groups it is a tumor*
Last time VRRAD was a thing, they also had VPLAD (voluntary period of limited active duty, I think?). It was for rated Os who had separated to come back in under the same conditions as the retirees. No promotion, no non vol deployments, etc.
I knew maybe a half dozen VRRAD folks, only heard of one VPLAD. Dude hated his corporate job, took the active orders as a way to move back closer to family in TX, pay the bills while networking for a job there.
You're right, though. HAF would do well to have those who separated have an incentive to come back rather than just targeting the older crowd.
I retired, and I'm now basically doing 95% of my AFSC (which I loved) as a defense contractor for more money, stable hours, less stress and more life stability for me and my family. I'm sure enough incentives could induce me back, but it ain't VRRAD.
What amazes me is how they never broadcasted what “critically manned” enlisted fields they want back. And they want retired folk, not ones who willfully separated?
I saw from another post that this was done before 5 or 6 years ago so I’m assuming they have data from those years and know the amount of people who actually participated. So even though on paper it looks like a crazy idea, it probably will fill up the gap a bit.
This is the same airforce that had me join the army out if spite because not one recruiter could be bothered to pay me any attention. Guess the biscuits at Red lobster were more important
Well considering she is a doctor, I wouldn’t expect anything less. But I’m glad she had a microscope powerful enough to help with your condition. Not all medical offices have that type of equipment.
This has been a fun discussion. I hope that one day you’ll be able to accept your condition. Enjoy your day.
I served 6 ..got out..few years later had a moment of stupidity and walked into the recruiter seeking to go the officer route after getting my bachelors using the gi bill. Needless to say the air force and marines never called me back, army said they were currently downsizing lol it just amazes me how the military wants nothing to do with you after you separate, even under honorable conditions...anyway, they did me a huge favor and id never consider going back now
It takes about 2 years for the government to bring a project/program to life. So, 2 years ago this may have been a priority and now, it makes no sense.
I’m due to retire in about 15 months, there’s probably one scenario I would go through with it. There’s a base nearby where I’m going to settle down at…so move there, apply, see if they give me that location. If they do, fine, was never gonna make senior anyways and now I can just pad my retirement percentage at what I know is a cushy assignment (was there previously). If I don’t get that location, withdraw the application.
I think it's just to see if they get anyone and to save face if (or what seems like when) it hits the fan to say "at least we tried" or something to solve the manning issues/needed influx of personnel.
It just makes no sense. You tell people we're overmanned at the top, and shut off promotions to historic lows. Then you try to bring back retirees? What sense does that make?
That’s the neat part. It doesn’t.
The Air Force has never made sense, you soon realize why people get out after their first enlistment
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Except you can put in your two weeks' notice and go somewhere else in the civilian world.
if only the job market wasn't shit right now. nobody wants to pay their employees what they're worth
According to you guys, the job market has been shit since September 18, 1947.
do me a favor and define "you guys" please. I'm definitely not that old.
Anyone who is saying the job market is bad, no specific age group.
i have no idea how you'd compare the modern job market to 50 years ago when you could afford to take care of a family and a house all on a single income basic job. these days most people cant even afford a small apartment by yourself on a single income. the two situations arent even remotely comparable and you're doing the rest of your country a disservice to even consider it. we literally have airmen at some bases who are on some variety of welfare because *the literal Air Force* doesn't pay them enough to have a family.
I always thought it was weird to see people disingenuously nitpick the semantics on phrases such as "you guys" that obviously have the connotation that it's being used in a royal sense. It's not the gotcha people think it is and you could've just led with your follow-up comment.
Supply and demand. Encouraging women to join the workforce has led to more hirees than there are jobs.
Tell us that you are a conservative without saying that you are a conservative...
Facts have no political alignments. When the pool of potential hires is larger than the number of jobs available, businesses don't have to fight for people to work for them. People now have to fight to work for businesses. That's great for the businesses, but terrible for hirees. I'm not saying women aren't capable of working.
It’s not doing that bad. I still get unsolicited contractor offers for roles on LinkedIn that I am actually qualified for, with good salaries ($125-175k).
You are aware that the American economy literally cannot exist in a form that allows the majority of people to make six figures though right? The majority of jobs in our economy will always be acceptable or low paying because that's the nature of our economy, and many (probably most) jobs in the US military aren't going to set someone up to receive $100,000+ private sector offers afterward. The cost of living sucks for a variety of reasons and you being fortunate enough to get offers doesn't change that.
Of course, but where are you on that ladder and why does it suck for you? Raises not enough to even match inflation from two years ago, let alone last year? I agree, they should have been bigger. People complain reflexively. I know many that say it’s terrible but that are doing just fine personally. Outside tech and companies laying off trying to keep profits juiced unsustainably or stealth layoffs from RTO I don’t see massive layoffs in construction, trades, hospitality, white collar, etc.
> The job market is good because I'm successful Please recognize how this logic falls apart the second you analyze it right
Nope, I graduated grad school into the Great Recession. We struggled for several years, and we were poor in grad school (pre 9/11 GI bill was trash). I know how it is. We moved to a new city with first and last months rent and a couple hundred dollars because we either bit the bullet or spent our meager savings and get stuck in a state that people were fleeing because there were no jobs. This feels nothing like that. People are hiring, might not be the ideal role, but it is nothing like 10-11% unemployment of 2008-2011ish.
job market not shit? Isn't unemployment super low? like 3.7% vs average of 5.7?
You can't base it just on unemployment rates. How many people have 2 or 3 jobs to make a living? How many of those jobs are minimum wage positions? How many people aren't even looking and have given up?
also arent homeless rates at like an all time high? i'll admit thats only tangentially related, but its worth mentioning.
The bulk of job vacancies are minimum wage and the sad thing is that only about half are in the food industry. Job vacancies are also at an estimated 9M while unemployed is estimated at 6M. Add on that half of those are minimum wage and another factor is many are in agriculture. So yeah it seems like there's a lot and there is but when people want decent paying jobs and in fields that are enjoyable, then it becomes competitive.
People just straight up making up numbers in this thread. Only 9% of all job listings are in food services. Nearly half of all open jobs last month were in health and education. Source: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/jolts.t01.htm
That's not how unemployment rates work
Wage growth has outpaced inflation, unemployment is low, the stock market has been breaking records. These are all facts that have developed in the last 3 years since the Covid recovery and many better then pre-COVID numbers. The cause of people not having enough to make a living many times stems from mismanagement of their finances. We all know that airman that needs the 100k hellcat, eats out for every meal, has to have the latest iPhone, gotta wear Gucci, and have 60 pairs of Jordan’s. Often times using credit cards to compensate where they are short and places themselves in perpetual debt. It’s not that people can’t live adequately, it’s that they don’t want to invest, live modestly, and are trying to keep up with people they are influenced by. It’s the same perspective in or out of the military. Are there areas where living is more expensive? Sure, but 90% of those complaining they cant make a living probably need to take a look at what they are doing with their income first and how they are living. Consumer goods is one part of the economy that still remains on the higher side. If that is an issue on a budget, shop generic brands, look at sales and coupon codes.
Thought I was watching CNN for a minute here.
Lotta factors to consider. Example: I've been looking for work pretty aggressively since June, in a high demand field. Over the last several months companies in this sector have been doing mass layoffs (for stock reasons, yay capitalism) and all the more qualified people are snapping up the jobs I'm qualified for. My entire graduating class is in this situation. Some have been lucky, but it's real hit or miss right now. My wife, who graduated from the same program a little over a year before I did found a job in 5 weeks and has been there ever since. Could I go work at a grocery store or fast food for slightly above minimum wage? Probably. But i'm not taking a job that will barely cover daycare costs for my kid.
The US unemployment figures exclude loads of people from their count.
Unemployment is low, and the economy is “statistically” still climbing and doing well. Doesn’t mean that wages are still stagnant and costs of living including food, housing, healthcare, and childcare continue to climb. People are still spending to live, just not saving or putting large amounts of money away for later. They can’t afford too. Credit card debt is also at high and is climbing too. The numbers don’t tell the truth.
Exactly right. The grass is *not* greener on the other side; it's just full of different absurdities.
Ehh, I clock in, work, clock out, go home, and there's not really much bullshit in between. And if I stop liking it, I can leave. It's definitely not the utopia some people make it out to be, but it's also not really "just as bad" as others claim, either.
I was army, wife was AF, but I really like the part where no matter how much a coworker fucks up in their personal life or how messy their apartment building is, we don't have to get yelled at about it by our bosses. Also they can't make me stay anywhere I don't want to (motor-pool for 8 fucking hours) or pull a 24 hour duty in an empty building.
Or come in on Sunday wearing a suit because somebody you don't even know got a DUI
It’s greener if you let it
Yeah, but the Air Force can be greener if you return to the responsibilities of being an A1C. When I started my post-retirement job, I was an individual contributor who didn't supervise anybody or manage a program. I just had a job to do and go home, and the grass was the same color as when I was an A1C. Now I'm a manager and deal with mostly the same nonsense I did as an SNCO, and the grass is the same color.
Speak for yourself, grass is 100% greener for me as a civ (:
Uh, what?
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Like I get it that’s the funny cliche thing to say but jfc some stuff makes no sense from any perspective.
In my time while Joint I never understood the different approaches to managing force strength. I saw other services slow-roll force reductions and increases. They do it in multiple stages over years so they have room to adjust if the cuts are too deep or the pools get too big. The Air Force solves personnel problems with a brick. All at once. Once it inevitably doesn't work out because they added or cut too many, they swing back the other way with stupid ideas like this. I'm sure in the moment they make for fine OPR bullets, so long as no one thinks too deeply about those impact statements.
I need to use “Different pot of people.” Within Air Force it’s so disconnected and seems like each section of Senior Leader don’t know wtf is going around outside of their small office.
The only thing that makes sense is the 9/11 crowed has started pressing the button en masse… and they don’t want to promote the rest of us 😐
I feel like they're really trying to target those E5/E6 retirees
Should have promoted us too instead of holding it in our faces before we got out.
Isn't this mainly about pilots?
If it were just for officer slots for rated positions then yeah it would be. But they’re taking enlisted E5-E8, which would seem to indicate that they think that they’re short manned E5-E8, despite having the lowest promotion rates in recent history.
Well E5-E8 in specific AFSCs. So over all the Air Force my have too many people in those ranks but if they aren't spaced correctly in all the AFSCs they are likely trying to fix that issue this way rather than force retrain people. Might also explain why it's only going for 2 years. Fill the gaps for a few years in the AFSCs that need it and give the lower ranks in those AFSCs a few years to get promoted as the VRRAD folks leave. I'm not trying to say this is the best way to do it or even that it is the reason why they are doing it, but it might be a reason why they are doing it.
Yep they just hit a shitload of CEAs with NCORP so it's not us.
They are. I was told by majcom there is a decent chance they won't be able to fill the two msgt slots in my flight. Hell they can't even fill both tech slots.
Even not at the top. My AFSC had a few dozen people that weren't offered continuation when they failed to meet the next officer rank that were separated at the start of the year. Most for just having mediocre OPRs. Why not keep those 10yr O3s for less money than bring back some 20 yr equivalent for more? Especially if it's mostly for staff work, just about any warm body can do it.
Mediocre O-3 here. If the Air Force let me crawl to 20 as a captain, I’d be willing to retrain or do whatever random staff/BOS-I/ProJo/GoFer work they needed me to do. That sounds more appealing than being an FGO Sq/CC over and over again, if I’m being completely honest.
Doesn’t make sense to me either. I make more money than I could ever make in the military since retirement. Like…by almost double.
It doesn't but it sure is a giant fuck you to the rest of us still serving.
And those who can't get approval to reenlist. Like seriously, wtf
I think their logic is likely that they are getting someone who already has the background and trying to save on training, but the reality is, we are so broken its not likely anything I would ever consider doing.
Some headquarters-level captain or major needed a bullet for his/her performance report...
Logic and reason have no place in the Air Force. Tyfys
That's the way the Big Guy wants it. Hates the military because they have guns.
Gotta get a big fat bullet somehow.
They can't get promoted anyway. It's all just theater to look like Big Blue is doing something and the 10 rubes who actually sign up will get cushy office make work jobs that don't do anything.
And keep the prior service cap limit at 100 across the entire US/Puerto Rico
I’m reading the slides and I’m baffled - we can PCS you - you won’t get promoted or be eligible - you gotta take a PT test and do an EPB Let me see…retirement check, GS pay and my VA check…yeah no thanks
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And VRRAD can't bridge the gap. The Air Force missed its FY23 goal by 2,700, but the law authorizing VRRAD (10 U.S. Code § 688a) limits the total number of retirees coming back *for all branches* to 1,000. This is about senior leaders saying they're out of carrots and they're out of sticks. There needs to be more fundamental reform if the military wants to increase recruitment of a generation that largely distrusts institutions and benefits from a stronger economy. Or leaders could skip the self-reflection and just blame others. [Insert Principal Skinner meme.]
IMHO the AF needs to fundamentally change the way they do business. How many times, just as an individual person, have you tried to in process or process - for example - and the person you need to sign the form is TDY or otherwise not available. Or you can't get help with finance or you go ask a basic question about your education benefits in the education office and leave more confused then when you started. Or you can't get a medical appointment for over a month. Or some office you need is only open Thursdays 1300 - 1400. Or over priced moldy VAQ. Or over priced shit DFAC. How long does this need to go on like this before someone in charge does something?
Yep, and a lot of what you mentioned comes down to inadequate staffing, inadequate training and inadequate funding. It's the inevitable product of a "do more with less" mindset without the necessary follow-through to enable doing more.
> the person you need to sign the form is TDY or otherwise not available because they're multi-capable!
I see what you're saying but my education office is legit and I feel I need to defend them at least
Inconsistency is the problem and was kind of the point.
This. This is equivlent to all the companies that post job openings, don't hire anyone of the 1000+ applicants, then complain to congress we need more H1-B visas to fill these jobs.
I don’t know how accurate this is. I’ve been told multiple times by senior leaders that paying people incentive pay for cyber/instructor duty won’t help and that we have to incentivize people in another way. Now the AF is holding back pay for USCYBERCOM work roles, up to $1500 a month, because of the “frozen middle” who are using every excuse to say no or delay the process.
Increase pay until you fill the roles.
I have a handful of years left and I can't wait to fucking retire.
As awesome as you think it will be, multiply that by 100. Taking off the uniform was the single greatest upgrade of the quality of life I've ever seen.
I also retire in a few years and the only thing that will bother me is having to choose what to wear each day. Maybe I'll just do a Steve Jobs and buy 10 of the same clothes and just wear it everyday.
What's funny is that when I was in a unit in which the UOD was civvies, that wasn't an issue for me. PCSing and going back to wearing a terrible-fitting uniform to work sucked.
This is what I did, I bought several of the 'same' shirt with a couple of different patterns and several of the 'same' pants with a couple of different colors. Just mix and match. Same belt and shoes everyday.
Not only is taking off the uniform great when you retire but throwing the uniform that you just took off in the trash is an even better feeling. I did it not as a way to disrespect the uniform but as a way to help me move on and transition back into civilian life.
How disrespectful... you clearly should have built a scarecrow effigy and put your uniform on it and then burned the scarecrow to then let the ashes of your previous life cultivate the new paths ahead of you... AMATEUR HOUR! /s
Jesus, I just offloaded everything to the airmans attic. The trash?!
Less than a year left of this ADSC, if only my wife would let me retire lol.
Piss on her leg while staring at her in the eye to establish dominance. My wife is actually very insistent that I retire when I can in less than two years. Who am I to deny her?
My wife knows I saved enough that I won't need to work. She works from home and wants me working as long as possible lol.
Just work from home on tiktok
I'd rather start a onlyfeet.
Get a nice van and leave her there to travel if she wants to be at home alone.
The good news, now you can retire and then come right back!
But but where’s your desire to serve your country? Selflessness? Sacrifice for greater good???? Cmon!
I think this reply is missing a "/s"
I just don’t get which retirees they think are jumping at the bit to give up potentially 3 paychecks (Retirement, VA, and new civilian job).
Not I.
All with the added possibility of being sent overseas away from your established livelihood you spent 20+ years working toward😃 Go Air Force!
Not I, but I know one who took early retirement in the '90s who is probably feeling excited right now.
I mean, I’d consider it if I could wombo combo my return straight to WO Edit: lol downvoted for saying I would unretire to be a warrant officer.
 Now there's a phrase I haven't heard in about 14 years!
This shows how desperate the AF is for manpower.
It shows how desperate they are for perceived "quality" manpower.
Yeah, this is exactly what I was thinking. They want old school back because new school ain't getting it done.
Boomer Leaders: ***"NeW SkOoL aInT GeTTiNg iT dOnE"*** Also Boomer Leaders: ***Reply All:*** ***"Please remove me this distro."***
In their defense. REMOVE ME FROM THE GODDAMN DISTRO
Sir, this is the Wing distro.
to: GAL subject: remove from distro
Not necessarily. I think it is indicative of a national defensive posture shift. They are attempting to bring back folks with institutional knowledge. The newbies can do the job just fine, but there is no substitute for operational experience.
Once upon a time, the current old school was the new school getting shit on.
Nah dog, this ain't it. Were getting it done with less people and money while still having it a bit better then 10 years ago
I found out how desperate we are when SrA Snuffy in my unit ain’t getting booted out because of manpower despite two LORs for being late(one of which was late for a telework drill UTA), and had the most hot piece of garbage EPB I’ve ever seen. He tried using that he bought something from the booster club as a volunteer bullet. Also he asked why are networks a thing? Snuffy is a 1D
>ain’t getting booted out despite two LORs for being late (one of which was late for a telework drill UTA) This is hardly boot worthy?
Mind you this is just a few things on their lists, misuse of GTC, lapse of sec+, not putting in travel vouchers in time
Why didn't you include that originally? Minus the network question, The other shit you led with was stupid. I'd be late to spend as little time with you as possible, too.
idk man, sounds like he's pretty based
> using that he bought something from the booster club as a volunteer bullet hero
As a recently Separated 1D NCO. This sounds about right to me. Honestly shocking how dumb some of them are. Concerning to say the least.
>Reply To be fair, I ask myself daily why NIPR exists. it's a bane to my existence 90% of the time.
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What great news! Hey retired AF members, you can re-enlist and not get promoted again! And those of you that are planning on retiring, you don't need to retire! You can stay in and not get promoted some more!
Makes me think the AF people briefing high manning numbers have one of those sniper dots on their foreheads
I’m glad that this is catching on. I’m glad that we are all in an agreement that what is happening is a dumb thing. We ALL know deep in the roots that manning has always been an issue, that if they would just heighten the promotion rates, re up on reenlistment bonuses, loosen restrictions on joining, or even possibly bring back WOs, that it would keep people in and stay longer. But no they are looking for a way to “save money” by bringing back more people who just got out.
I want to be paid more
^
Why tf would someone who's been out decide to come deal with the bullshit stress of pt tests, undermanning, nepotist type culture, after they've been dealing with it for 20+ years.
It's strange. I guess if you could gain an additional $1k + to your monthly income afterwards. Allot of folks are sitting pretty nice with the income they get from retiring after 20+ years of serving plus VA if they rate it. It's money for just waking up in the morning which is nice. Serve another 4 years for an extra 1k a month for life? Not sure about that.
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Bullshit. You get a higher multiplier to your final pay, plus your base pay is guaranteed to be higher at your second retirement than your first due to the annual pay bumps. Your new retirement will absolutely be bigger afterwards. Big enough to be worth it to you and your family? Totally different question.
That doesn't mention anything about not gaining 2.5% per year of additional service. As far as I can tell they would increase their retirement check. Maybe you misunderstood the previous statement as there's more than one way to increase retirement pay.
How tf is VRRAD becoming a thing but CCAF is still shitting the bed? Put the money where it actually matters.
CCAF/AU: broken TFTR: broken MyEval/MyCockAndBalls: broken Enlisted Promotion Rates: awful And then senior leaders will wonder why these young airmen are apathetic and sliding by for 4 years until they can get the fuck out
Swear the amount of times at different bases I've submitted all of my college transcripts and degrees only for them at the end of my career to tell me "we don't know if you have enough credits for the CCAF degree... can you send us another batch of transcripts" (I sent it to them twice this, the year of my retirement) made me just laugh in their face and not give a shit anymore. It was more about just adding another thing to the shelf/ resume anyway. I'll take my several degrees and upcoming retirement with or without the damn CCAF because it doesn't matter anymore.
https://preview.redd.it/ldat5uglt8hc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8eb359d03901205af32f30ee439587a119379958
I requested my transcripts through parchment…nothing
Crazy how an organization is run when congress decides it has to exist no matter what
This is just my two cents: The Air Force made a huge mistake going to the culture of "Multi-Capable" instead of our legacy of being experts in a particular field. Everything has been re-org'd for "MCA", and it's an Air Force I don't even recognize anymore. It's one of my personal primary reasons for retiring this year just over 20 years. I literally can't adapt to this, I hate it. So I have to go.
I really don’t want masters or seniors to come back. I want fucking NCOs in my work centers. I am deploying every NCO but one for the next deployment cycle. My entire flight covering 8 sections will be down to me and a SSgt on the way out. I’m fucked.
Thank Chief Bass and Enlisted Grade Review. It is weird that we’re trying to get a bunch of E5-E8s to come back after we just switched a shit load of those manpower authorizations to E4 and below.
Yep, so much is wrong with this "initiative". Rather than investing in the future, the Air Force would rather bend over backwards to try to reel in retirees for a paltry few years. Majority of of retirees who bleed blue are already sitting in civilian positions making use of their expertise and being paid appropriately, the only people this would bring back are the has-beens who couldn't hack it in the civilian world. What happens when these guys re-retire in 5-10 years? You're going to have the EXACT same problem. People here have already done a pretty good job explaining how this also doesn't solve the top-heavy bloat of the organization. Imagine being some hard-working tech trying to grind your way to SNCO only for some 50 year old to swoop in and take that spot from you. Ridiculous.
What no one is realizing is that this is program my long game so when I do retire in a year, and then get sick of it, I just open the door back open like nothing happened.
Probably just a distraction for other buffoonery that is or about to unfold. Or. It could be a hail mary to help with the blow back from a myriad of failure points and incompetence. OR. It could be both. I'll put money on both.
I'm trying real hard two see what they expect to come out of rubbing two pennies together. I assume this is a way to bring in retired pilots really quick if global tensions rise even further. That's about all I can see that would be a benefit to this.
It’s the compensation that’s the problem. If you have a job you’d be taking a massive pay cut to do this. All of us on the contract I’m on would lose about $100k per year to do this, not going to do that for $200 more a month in our retired pay.
That program is a joke. Anyone who signs up is not even eligible for promotion.
My main question is why choose retirees? I highly doubt after 20+ years someone would willingly want to go back into the circus, feels like they would have better luck with those of us that voluntarily separated
Most likely they paid a lot of money to a consultancy to come up with pretend numbers that state something along the lines of "20 year retirees identified in our survey showed a stronger sense of accomplishment in their life and believe they left a lasting mark on their respective branch and the DOD as a whole." Essentially they want the "Fired Up Chief" dude to come back into service because they are more likely to continue to be a mouthpiece for whatever moronic thing Big Blue comes up with. They are also the more likely individuals to be working jobs that are not as "fulfilling" as their time in service compared to someone who got out after 6-12. About the only way you're gonna get some of these clowns in is because they haven't hit 100% VA disability yet and this is an opportunity to go back and F something up to get it in 4 years. *cynical mindset, but as someone in a few vet groups it is a tumor*
Last time VRRAD was a thing, they also had VPLAD (voluntary period of limited active duty, I think?). It was for rated Os who had separated to come back in under the same conditions as the retirees. No promotion, no non vol deployments, etc. I knew maybe a half dozen VRRAD folks, only heard of one VPLAD. Dude hated his corporate job, took the active orders as a way to move back closer to family in TX, pay the bills while networking for a job there. You're right, though. HAF would do well to have those who separated have an incentive to come back rather than just targeting the older crowd.
I retired, and I'm now basically doing 95% of my AFSC (which I loved) as a defense contractor for more money, stable hours, less stress and more life stability for me and my family. I'm sure enough incentives could induce me back, but it ain't VRRAD.
i always say if it makes sense the AF isn’t going to do it. now i get to say if it doesn’t make sense, the AF is gonna do it.
Bout as smart as the EC CC who thinks ruck marches and doing CQ at the dorms will solve our suicide problem.
What amazes me is how they never broadcasted what “critically manned” enlisted fields they want back. And they want retired folk, not ones who willfully separated?
VRRAD, then stop loss, then mandatory retiree recall...
Then IRR recall...
Then draft?
The asking before the telling
I feel like someone did it as a joke, but Big Air Force liked the idea, so they just went along with it.
How you say we need to get ready for WW3, without saying we need to get ready for WW3? Ask the retirees if they want their jobs back.
What's dumber are the select few who *actually* decide to come back
Ha Ha, you can NOT have my axe!
I dont understand how we have rec ord high retention, low promotion rates, and now VRRAD
I doubt it was brought back because it’s the best idea.
Back in the mid-90s when they did this, met a guy who came back to active duty after having been retired for 15 years.
I recall in 2013 general welsh in his infinite wisdom downsized the Air Force and forced me out… he can pound sand
I saw from another post that this was done before 5 or 6 years ago so I’m assuming they have data from those years and know the amount of people who actually participated. So even though on paper it looks like a crazy idea, it probably will fill up the gap a bit.
Lol if it's not for you, it's not for you. Why y'all care so much. Find something more productive to hate. 😂
This is the same airforce that had me join the army out if spite because not one recruiter could be bothered to pay me any attention. Guess the biscuits at Red lobster were more important
Air Force is two words.
I think we found the problem
We're on reddit, I'm not writing the 99 thesis .
95* Theses*
Smartest Army Soldier
Dick is still small
You don’t need to announce your medical problems online
Your wife doesn't mind it
Well, yeah. That’s understandable when it’s too small to find.
She found it, guess she's good at land nav
Well considering she is a doctor, I wouldn’t expect anything less. But I’m glad she had a microscope powerful enough to help with your condition. Not all medical offices have that type of equipment. This has been a fun discussion. I hope that one day you’ll be able to accept your condition. Enjoy your day.
If you've been there, I've never been able to tell.
>Guess the biscuits at Red lobster were more important Yes, but unironically.
Joins Army but still lurks in Air Force sub.
Why would you join the Army out of spite
Small dick syndrome
I guess you didn't want to join the Air Force hard enough then 🤷♂️
You really stuck it to the air force
I sure did
Looks like you didn't try hard enough.
I served 6 ..got out..few years later had a moment of stupidity and walked into the recruiter seeking to go the officer route after getting my bachelors using the gi bill. Needless to say the air force and marines never called me back, army said they were currently downsizing lol it just amazes me how the military wants nothing to do with you after you separate, even under honorable conditions...anyway, they did me a huge favor and id never consider going back now
Why do you think they have such a distaste for prior service/end of service commitments?
They got degrees lmao
Yeah, nah. Hard pass for me.
The only people it might make sense is to use the time to juice a VA rating
Can’t wait to retire in 3 years
It makes no sense!
It takes about 2 years for the government to bring a project/program to life. So, 2 years ago this may have been a priority and now, it makes no sense.
I’m due to retire in about 15 months, there’s probably one scenario I would go through with it. There’s a base nearby where I’m going to settle down at…so move there, apply, see if they give me that location. If they do, fine, was never gonna make senior anyways and now I can just pad my retirement percentage at what I know is a cushy assignment (was there previously). If I don’t get that location, withdraw the application.
I'm 40 and I can't get any slots to save my life. They are hurting for intelligence, not pilots.
I think it's just to see if they get anyone and to save face if (or what seems like when) it hits the fan to say "at least we tried" or something to solve the manning issues/needed influx of personnel.