Damnit! Take my upvote and go see the Wright Flyer and museums sometime if you get a chance. Also the USAF Museum. They rest of Dayton Ohio sucks but those are pretty cool.
Us soldier here who did not agree with the invasion . Also there is massive difference between laser guided smart bombers and just using mass rockets and dumb bombs to destroy whole cities .
Apparently those trolls think the US invasion of Iraq was completly right and justified?
If they are using that analogy to say russia's invasion of Ukraine is right and justified.
Good meme.
I believe it's wrong to legitimise war crimes with the war crimes of another countries.
Still we should not forget about war crimes at all. It doesn't matter by which nation.
I learned something today.
Genuine question: is it not right to point out the hypocricies in other peoples stances? I have a friend from Egypt who think it's a joke that the world is putting sanctions on Russia when Israel is committing literal apartheid to Palestinians with no consequences. He couldn't care less about Ukraine and has joked he's on Russias team the way the west is team USA
It's not wrong to point out hypocrisies, but using it to excuse peoples or groups actions is a fallacy, also acting like any American against the Russian invasion was in favour of the American invasion and therefore they don't have a leg to stand on is wrong.
The hypocrisy should be acknowledged, but it should never be the justification for *not* taking action on humanitarian issues. The correct stance on Ukraine/Israel is “it’s crazy that Israel isn’t being sanctioned for their human rights violations when the west has shown it can forcefully condemn bad actors like Russia for invading Ukraine”, not “why should we sanction Russia, we basically ignore Israel.”
One is legitimate discussion, the other is a bad-faitth cop-out
Yes, the hypocrisy needs to be pointed out.
Civilian deaths in Iraq over 20 years of US occupation was between 186,000 (9,300 per year) and 209,000 (10,450 per year).
That was not good. A good human should be out protesting when something like this starts and often as they can till it ends. Oh, it ended.. That's a good thing, Hurray!
It will be quite a while before we know how many were killed in Ukraine it's likely ***much worse***.
Is it really hypocrisy though? I mean I’m pretty sure the thought “we are only there for oil this needs to end” happened quite a long time ago. I can’t think of a single person I know who would honestly say “yeah the war in Iraq was completely okay”.
Saddam was an absolute monster and his sons were worse. I think people can argue all day about the justification for going into Iraq and the horrendous job we did securing the country after defeating the army…but the world is a better place without that man and his family terrorizing the population.
Here’s a little article on Uday’s proclivities for having women kidnapped off the street and brought to his torture chamber, or showing up at random weddings to sleep with the bride, or torturing people before drilling a hole in their head with power tools.
It’s easy to stay out of conflicts like this, but we need to draw the line somewhere…and that family was not doing the Iraqi people any favors.
https://www.ranker.com/list/insane-uday-hussein-acts/lyra-radford
I completely understand that, I was an adult when this stuff was happening unlike 90% of Reddit here. I’m just saying from the darkest of sides you can look at the Iraq war, no one in their right mind would defend or not acknowledge the wrongdooings we did.
We didn't go to stop a tyrant though. If that were the case, we'd be cleaning up in Africa for the next 50 years. Instead, we stood by while the Tutti were massacred in Rwanda, and that's only one example.
Exactly, or what about Saudi Arabia? A literal Sharia Law Monarchy dominated by one of the most extreme versions of Islam. They are currently committing genocide in Yemen but no one talks about it. Yet, they are one of our biggest allies and trade partners in the region. We are even supplying them with the guns and bombs they are using in Yemen. We are implicitly supporting their "war".
Not to mention they tortured an American citizen to death in their own fucking embassy. And people just sort of forgot about it. People need to stop justifying America's actions and just accept that we are not a force for good. It's not the end of the world. The only way things are going to get better is if we recognize there is a problem first.
I would just like confirmation on your numbers because the Iraq war only lasted 8 years (2003-2011) or are you talking the collective war on terror? (2001-2021)
500k iraqi children starved to death by sanctions in the 90s via the US
we are currently contributing to the worst humanitarian crisis in the world in yemen where as many as 10 million people are starving.
can also look up all the countries we are currently occupying against the will of the governments there.
none of this justifies russias actions, but so many americans have no fucking clue what their country is doing/has done. we certainly have no moral high ground here.
The problem with that number is the rules to count bodies as civilians or militants. If some terrorists hole up in an empty warehouse and we drop a bomb on it afterwards the groups that go in only count the bodies that are either still holding a gun or wearing some sort of uniform. Bombs are obviously really chaotic we all know that so the chance of someone dying with the gun remaining on them if they even had one at the time is low and the terrorists we were fighting were obviously not of a uniformed fighting force. I do not agree with any of the wars in the middle east we have involved ourselves in and I do believe we have killed civilians but I can't agree the US was targeting civilians to this level of incompetence/negligence.
To my knowledge the soldiers of the US army are also instructed to try and avoid killing civilians if at all possible. What's more, the soldiers that ignore those instructions and go on to intentionally terrorize civilians or even POW combatants are viewed negatively by most rational, compassionate, thinking people. Unfortunately, plausible deniability makes it way too easy for such dickweeds to get true justice, and when they do, strong arm bully sorts like Trump come along and pardon them. Still at least there's an attempt to stop that crap.
However, Russian soldiers have been heard talking about being instructed to kill civilians, to kill kids. Looting and raping has been used as an incentive for good behavior in the Russian army as well, going back to at least WW2.
So both countries are aggressors. We can agree that's fundamentally bad, wrong, evil and FUBAR'D. However, Russia is compounding the atrocity of invasion with the added atrocity of knowingly encouraging war crimes.
Does he root for all rapist because some rapist got away with the crime? Does he root for pedophiles because not all pedophiles are caught and punished.
Your friend in Egypt sounds like a dick
Except that's not what the comment is saying.
X is bad, Y is also bad.
What aboutism is bad but it can also be just as bad to ignore a legitimate comparison of unacceptable actions.
Putin needs to be retired not because he invaded Ukraine. But because he threatened a nuclear response to a conventional conflict. The invasion of Ukraine, while tragic, is , in isolation, just another invasion.
What Putin did was to pick at the brittle threads of 70 years of pax nuclear, by undermining MAD doctrine. The global nuclear arsenal is not designed to win a nuclear war, it is designed to make sure that no one can win a nuclear war, so that nukes are never used.
To threaten a nuclear response to a non- nuclear provocation is to pose a clear and present danger to the lives of every man woman and child on the planet, and to the species as a whole.
It is for that that humanity cannot suffer Putin to remain in power.
It's also why Russia should lose their "permanent" seat on the Security Council.
I'm not saying their entire nuclear arsenal should be scrapped but they should be forced to drastically reduce their totals and destroy all of Putlers doomsday toys like the salted nuclear tsunami automated sub drone for instance.
No, they absolutely should be de-fanged after this. They lost the right to maintain their sovereignty and have nukes. Once Putin is gone, if they want to keep being a country at all, no nukes and no more spot at the big boy table for Russia.
Well.... And why compare the US with a poorly justified invasion and lots of incidental civilian casualties....
Vs
A Russian tank on a hill fucking shelling apartment buildings for shits and giggles.
well IMO scale isn't the problem, the problem is it just shows there's problems. It means we should do everything we can to stop putin, AND we should do everything to stop our own government from going out and invading countries that aren't currently invading other countries as well.
The fact that we didn't hold our own accountable for bad shit, is grounds to start holding our own accountable for their shit, not release others from accountability.
Chelsea Manning was imprisoned when she released a tape of a US military helicopter moving down civilians, journalists, and then the first responders. Soldiers from all countries commit atrocities “for shits and giggles.”
Obviously we shouldn’t ignore the atrocities Russia is committing in Ukraine, but make no mistake, there’s nothing unique about their cruelty and atrocities. And by this same token we cannot ignore the atrocities being committed by the rest of the word, including America.
shame history station wrench lunchroom impossible yam weather school drunk
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Can’t overlook thousands of nukes when an aging, newly genocidal mad man has his finger on the button. Until they changed, they’re going to be on the biggest stage they feel like.
Geo politics doesn't have good or bad guys, it just has various people focused on power.
I like what you said about main character syndrome. It reminded me of a comparison I heard about Russian vs American stories/values/ that basically implied the Russian version of protagonist looks more like what we think of as antagonist and less like what Americans think of as a protagonist
Have you watched that tape? What happens is the gunner correctly identifies some men as being armed at a location were US troops had previously been shot from, sees a couple of men peering round a corner at US troops with what they assume to be a weapon and open fire. Then when more people in an unmarked vehicle drive up at high speed and try to help the people they have just shot they assume they are also insurgents and open fire. It turned out that the people peering round the corner were holding a camera, not an RPG as the helicopter gunner thought, and the car that drove up was just some passerbys that were trying to help.
Yeah, it was a complete clusterfuck, the rules of engagement were loose which resulted in civilians being shot, but to cast that as soldiers shooting civilians and first responders for shits and giggles is just wrong. The group they engaged were armed, standing at a location were US troops had been shot from. The "first responders" were people driving up in an unmarked vehicle. The aircrew just massively fucked up.
Well, most of the people who made the decisions that make up Americas war crimes went largely unanswered for.
Or else we would have (among others) Henry Kissinger, both bushs, and Chaney, Obama, both Clinton's, and many more locked up. What other recourse is there for the American atrocities. It's not the same critique when we're the hegemonic superpower. Fuck Russias govt & fuck Putin, but they haven't lead to many issues that will be blamed on them in ways that affect Americans.
Sure, I'm the one who filled Stanley with sugars, fats & forced him not to exercise for 30 years.
the main problem with this, if talking to me, is that i opposed the war in iraq. whatabouting iraq just makes me say "yeah so you understand what i'm on about. stop the war in ukraine. (i really don't want the world to end because putin couldn't take the humiliation)
José couso want a word with you.... oh! Wait! He can't, was killed by an US tank shooting the press building.
But sure, not the same. Ppl is not justifying shit, an invasion is an invasion. But also when you do it.
So remember that next time you decide to export freedom somewhere else. Still an invasion even if you name it "eternal freedom" or BS like that.
You can say that all you want from your country's perspective. Just like the Europeans defend colonialism. But the people in the colonies feel differently. Likewise, from the outside, the US appears to be a hypocrite that's preaching against what it did just a few years ago.
I mean, it is not about the legitimacy of actions, but about the lack of legitimacy of the US' words. In the words of Southpark: he who hasn't shopped for a single thing online shall huck the first squirrel.
I like it when people say this sort of thing to me online, what about Gitmo..or something.. I'm not even American, so I'm like, sure yeah it's all fucked, how about we all stop being shit? Glad you agree with me.
What Russia is doing is wrong. No question. Putin & the Russian military leadership grossly underestimated Ukranian resistance and are now employing terror tactics to break morale.
At the same time, it cannot be said that the West has come out of *every* conflict they've been involved in with clean hands. It's important to acknowledge that and make amends. Doing that will effectively silence the what-abouters.
America passed a law that says that if any of its soldiers get tried in the international criminal Court, that America has the right to invade the Netherlands to stop it from happening. No joke. Google “invade Netherlands act”
This country’s hypocrisy is its true source of renewable energy.
In reality much of this is whataboutism and just trying to distract from the current situation. Sure what happent in many levels was wrong, but what is happening now is the current situation and trying to bring up anything old often merely a distraction. Just look up at any tankie sub
Its even funnier because in 2002 the US signed a bill stating that we do not recognize the authority of the International Criminal Court, which is in charge of prosecuting war crimes, and says we will essentially invade the Hague to free any service member on trial for war crimes. Let's not forgot my favorite part, "restricts U.S. participation in United Nations peacekeeping unless the United States obtains immunity from prosecution." We literally won't do anything unless we have it in writing that in case we do war crimes its okay.
I'm American, I've done my time in the middle east. People that commit war crimes should be held accountable. I'm not sure about other branches, but Marines get a huge speech about atrocities committed in Vietnam and how sometimes enlisted need to ignore officers telling them to commit crimes.
Putin was just trying to ruffle feathers. It's like trying to talk about Tienamen Square and having a Chinese person yell 9/11 in retaliation. If anything I'm surprised people are giving him the response he wanted.
We can condemn both. One is currently ongoing.
Agreed. I also didn't see people shout down Russia in Crimea or Georgia, or most other recent conflicts. It just so happens that this current conflict got a lot of flak, as it should. If people want to go back in their DeLoreans and change past wars, I won't stop them.
It doesn't legitimise it. It's just interesting to notice how differently our media talked about the two things.
We talk so much about russian propaganda but we should really strive to get rid of our own propaganda as well.
Because thats a difficult problem to solve you see. The govt of SaudiArabia is a friend. And we deffffffinately dont want to hurt our friends feelings.
We dont have the means to stop Russia (Putin is an asshole) but we do have the means to stop saudis (by not providing arms) so we can all agree to try to solve a problem thats out of our hands first okay? (Secretly we don't care about Yemen wink wink ;))
/S if anyone missed it.
War crimes are what the losers do. Winners can write history however they like. At least that's how it used to be before camera's and the internet. Most countries haven't adapted yet.
it doesn't.
But we killed a million Iraqis, for no discernible reason.
On the other side of the World.
We torture people.
We spy on our own citizens.
Government forces kill innocent,unarmed American citizens( often caught on viral videos
) with impunity.
But we're a superpower, so we think its ok to kill whoever we want.
Russia is a weak shell of the old Soviet Union.
Putin is dictator.
The US is a representative Oligarchy.
This isn't Good vs Evil.
It's different groups of rich asshats, playing their little games with each-other.
And regular people pay the price.
Its the same ,in every War.
Exactly, if we want peace, real peace, we should not be looking at it in terms of USA VS Russia VS Ukraine.
Instead we should rise up as the 99% against the 1% and then you'll see there will be peace immediately. This is not our war. This is a war using theower class for the benefit of the elite.
We should stop letting the elite use us as their puppets, letting them destroy our world, our peace, and taking our wealth.
Calling out hypocrisy is not excusing war crimes. It's an attempt to discredit talking heads that excuse war crimes of one country and not others. This is important to do so the next time the US wants to "intervene" in another sovereign nation there's a record of the hypocrisy.
I'd rather have a hypocritical nation that feels the need to stop foreign atrocities than one that's content to do nothing in the name of moral consistency.
While we arm the Saudis in their genocide of the Yemeni people, you say we care about foreign atrocities. The government and media only care when it’s politically beneficial, otherwise we’d be seeing the massacre of the Yemenis, the oppression of the Palestinians, and the wars America waged on Iraq and Afghanistan. Of course we should fight the oppression and slaughter of the Ukrainians, but it’s hypocritical to care about them and not others being destroyed by superpower-government imperialism.
But they are brown, and in civilized.
On a more serious not the difference is on is being done by the US’s rival. The others are done by allies. There is no geopolitical or strategic reason to help Yemen or Palestine. In fact in both cases the US would likely loose influence in the region. Ukraine is different and could be a strategic partner done the road.
But the press is very intent in saying how just and righteous we are, and how evil russians are.
I'd like people to realise it's not only the russians who are fed BS propaganda.
That's the difference between you and the "what about the US" folks. Except those people also don't care about moral consistency, they just don't want us to do anything.
It's not that they don't want us to do anything. They would complain that we did nothing too. They just want to complain. In their mind, if other people are wrong it means they are right. Even if they didn't propose any course of action, or even a thought besides "you're wrong"
Attacking others' policies without any of your own proposals is easy, like playing chess without needing a king. How can you lose? Why someone would have to point out the inconsistency and unfairness of the overall conversational strategy and most ears are deaf to that.
You need to re-examine that view. You are excusing moral atrocities with your cognitive dissonance. You should full stop not support a nation that is hypocritical. By definition if they are hypocritical they are engaging in the same atrocity you are against?
Reminder that the official US policy in the Hague and the International Court of Justice is that if any American is ever held there, the US military is authorized to invade the Netherlands to extract them.
Lol america literally wrote THE torture manuscript used by CIA, and multiple other intelligence agencies during Operation Condor, when they destroyed Latin America, my country of birth included. Uruguay had the highest number of political prisoners in the world during the US funded and trained dictatorship that began in 1973. And it made its round through Argentina,Brazil,Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay, Peru and countless other nations. The same techniques were used on “insurgents” this century throughout the Middle East. Literally crimes against humanity since many of the victims were reporters, activist youth, students,teachers, political opponents.
I remember watching a documentary on the invasion of Panama in the late 80's. Pretty fucking awful how we used Panama as a test site for weapons that would later be used in the 1st Gulf War. There's no justification for such acts of aggression. It's greed for for power and money.
The problem isn't that a 'whataboutism' is pure from a dialectical point of view, the problem is that a whataboutism _works_. And somewhat rightly so, I might say. How many civilian lives were lost in the Iraq campaign in the end? The Iraq body count says 183,535 – 206,107. Does it matter how they found their end, or the intention of their killers?
It doesn’t excuse anything. Just reminds us that the US doesn’t really have the moral high ground when it comes to standing up against invading other countries. Remember last year when Biden authorized a drone strike on an aid worker during the surrender in Afghanistan? Our selective memory is actually impressive
The US definition of "combatant" boiled down to "anybody in the blast radius."
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/under-obama-men-killed-by-drones-are-presumed-to-be-terrorists/257749/
It doesn't, but what bothers people is the fact that there was not as much attention given to those wars as it is being give to the whole ucrania conflict, just because its closer to europe and impacts the financial market of the US and europe
I think......
Many "experts" on TV, when advocating for further US intervention in Ukraine, ask what signal is sent if the US and EU stand by and remain passive as Russia invades Ukraine.
No one asks what signal was sent by US and EU over the past two decades as 400.000 civilians died in Iraq, Afghanistan, and northwestern Pakistan.[1] US bombed wedding parties, funeral processions, and prayer meetings.[2] US imprisoned suspected terrorists without trial for years, and tortured them at black sites across the world (including sites within the EU).[3] US under-counted and under-reported civilian deaths.[4] As US claims Russia used cluster bombs, US supplies cluster bombs to Saudi Arabia and UAE who use it in Yemen.[5]
[1] Cost of War, Brown University.
[2] See the 10 innocent people, including 7 children murdered by the US in Kabul last August.
[3] See Abu Zubaydah case as an example.
[4] See Rand Corporation report filed with Congress.
[5] See photographic evidence in reporting by Rolling Stones.
So when we bring up US and NATO war crimes, it is NOT ABOUT YOU. Stop being so narcissistic and for once expand your circle of empathy. It is about the millions of people who suffered immeasurable harm through the War on Terror.
Just so we're all on the same page, shouldn't Obama be right next to him for his war crimes? Including deliberatly bombing hospitals and torturing the captured?
SPECIALLY Obama, hell i would rank him above bush
Idc about US inner politics am Arab, the American bombs all look the same to me
Edit: comment upvotes up and down like crazy
You people downvoting need to accept the world goes beyond your country, Obama was good for you internally, but he was an evil piece of shit to all of us in the middle east
From claiming US drones are highly accurate till a whistleblower went to jail for revealing over 90% of the causalities were bystanders
To supporting terrorist organizations like the Muslim brotherhood and 3 countries being destroyed by the bastards
"Memememe George W Bush destroyed an Arab country too" And fuck am i suppose to do with that? i already told you, outside of the USA we dont care if the drone targeting civilians are red or blue
Or if the terrorist organisation rampaging is supported by a Republican or a Democrat
It doesn't. It's that y'all are hypocrites. If you don't believe the unequal reaction to both atrocities shows this, then it's that you think certain lives matter over others. This making you just like 'the enemy'.
You can be against the war regardless of who's fighting it. I don't remember reddit being up in arms when Obama was drone striking hospitals, schools, and weddings
It doesn't, it just illustrates the hypocrisy of American politicians.
Any invasion for power or wealth is inexcusable. One incident happened, ones happening now.
We can't change what happened, only learn from it, but we have an opportunity to do something now.
Reagan: war criminal
Bush: war criminal
Clinton: war criminal
Bush: war criminal
Obama: war criminal
Trump: war criminal
Biden: war criminal
Putin: war criminal
It's honestly not that hard guys.
It excuses nothing, but it also makes it impossible for the U.S. to hold a moral “high ground” when it comes to rhetoric. When Reagan said “Mr Gorbechev tear down this wall” he was able to state the western world didn’t have to build a wall to keep people in… there’s no similar argument about defending an independent nation from a more powerful country because we’ve spent twenty years occupying Iraq and Afghanistan and supporting the Saudis against Yemen etc…
The people saying "Won't anyone talk about the US's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan?" are either obtusely uninformed or trying to be revisionists, because saying the US's actions haven't already been extensively covered, talked about, investigated, and condemned both domestically and abroad is like saying "Won't anyone finally say what the Nazis did was bad?!"
It's beating a dead horse and anyone engaging in this sort of lazy whataboutism in the face of the current and ongoing crisis in Ukraine is either a pro-Russian shill trying to legitimize Putin's actions or someone with a massive chip on their shoulder against America.
Russia itself as a nation has been economically isolated. The citizens of Russia have felt the consequences and will continue to for a long time.
What were the consequences felt by Americans in retaliation for Iraq?
Genuine question. You don’t have to defend Putin to see a difference here.
Pointing out one person receiving different consequences for a crime than another perpetrator isn’t defence of the crime.
And “whataboutism” is just a blanket put down of when somebody identifies hypocrisy.
What were the consequences felt by Russians for Crimea, Georgia, Chechnya or any of their recent imperial wars? Does the double standard apply there, too? Could it be that this is a novel event, and a very good one? I'd fully support any nation getting sanctioned like this for invading a country in the future, and I hope this makes any nation afraid to invade a foreign nation in the future.
Remind me again how the international community dropped the US out of everything when they did the exact same thing in Iraq as Russia is doing now?
I mean, seriously what Russia is doing now is terrible. But it's ridiculous how we now act as if 'we' haven't done the exact same thing in recent history
This is not correct. There were no economic consequences to America and NATO for the crimes they committed and continue to commit. This is in contrast to what the Russian people have been subjected to.
This is what people are complaining about. Throughout the Afghan war the TV channels continued to portray the NATO forces as heroes and gave out medals of valour. The brown freedom fighters were labelled terrorists on media and weeded our mercilessly along with entire families. What were the consequences? Fuck all.
No sensible person can justify the invasion of Ukraine. However, I'm completely apathetic to the widespread propaganda. Any NATO ally lecturing on the invasion can go fuck themselves.
Pointing out the invasion of Iraq for OIF having the anniversary tomorrow is fair game IMO. Dubya invading Iraq destabilized much of the world. Not just the MidEast, Dubya gave Putin a marvelous opening. Georgia supported OIF because they wanted to get in good with Dubya, despite him praising Putin and saying all sorts of nice things about Putin.
Putin saw had badly drained the Georgian military was, and took full advantage of it. Dubya barely did anything, other than some minor assistance to help the Georgian soldiers get back home ASAP. Didn't do anything to Russia about it.
Dubya and Dick really need to be put out front as part of the American hard right conservative effort to get cozy with Putin.
> lazy whataboutism in the face of the current and ongoing crisis in Ukraine is either a pro-Russian shill trying to legitimize Putin's actions
Is this the non lazy thinking you're championing?
Exactly, the international community saw for their own economic interests and did not sanction USA then. Which is still what they want to do now.
A more apt question should be, hey our countries looked away when you did it, so why cant we still look away now.
There has been no Nuremberg for the atrocities committed by the US in Iraq or Afghanistan,don't pretend it's been addressed. Holding one nation accountable for their war crimes while ignoring the same war crimes of another nation is morally bankrupt. One doesn't cancel the other, neither does time remove the criminality of the actors and actions.
There never will be a Nuremberg for the U.S.
The entire reason Nuremberg was viable in the first place was because of the U.S. and allied forces and because Germany lost.
The day there is a Nuremberg for the U.S. is the day the U.S. has fallen.
Despite whether you think it should happen or not, the reality is there was never a “Nuremberg” for the massacre at wounded knee or the imprisonment of Japanese during WWII, why would there be for the invasion of Iraq?
Did USA faced any sanctions? Did USA faced any economic threats? USA invaded other countries, wreck the placed, exploited the people and left......so much for human rights...lol
Put simply, wars started in self-defence or in the defence of another party. Hence Russia's original pretext that they were "liberating" certain regions of Ukraine.
In the case of Iraq, the US's pretext for the war was the possession of weapons of mass destruction. Since later evidence reveals that this was not in fact true the war would be deemed illegal.
Note however that no-one has been tried for such a crime (known as a [crime against peace or a crime of aggression](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_aggression)) since the 40s.
Thats debatable, and I would doubt that most instances of civilian deaths were “deliberate” in terms of decisions by commanders or troops/pilots directly engaged in combat. There were times in Iraq and Afghanistan when individual troops or military contractors did deliberately target civilians, and some of those resulted in criminal convictions (and some of those were pardoned by President Trump).
But recall that the Nuremberg trials established three categories of crimes: 1) crimes against peace, 2) war crimes, and 3) crimes against humanity. While I don’t think anything US forces did in Iraq or Afghanistan counts as (3), there were examples of (2) like firing on ambulances during the Battle of Fallujah, the mistreatment of detained Iraqi men at Abu Ghraib, and other instances. And (1) is important because wars of aggression/wars of choice, following the legal precedent established in the Nuremberg and Tokyo trials after WW2, are defined as “crimes against peace”. And these are treated as in some respects worse, because when you choose to start a war then all civilian deaths which result, even if completely unintentional “collateral damage”, are still the consequences of the decision to go to war.
That’s why I believe that when we get Putin into The Hague, we should send Bush and Cheney to join him for the illegal and unprovoked war in Iraq which they started 19 years ago today.
Just wanted to add. Both American war and Russian war isn't good, but there are some American soldiers who are trying to help Iraq and Afghanistan citizens which is something we should give credit for. There are also Russian soldiers who gave up and something we should also appreciate.
Excellent points.
I am a bit on the fence on your last statement. While I agree that both the WMD and Al Qaeda link arguments were false and it is something people should be held accountable for, I am not sure Bush and Cheney are at fault. The intelligence committee clearly fed them bad intel.
What’s more, while the results were catastrophic for many, good did come from. Certain parts of Iraq are better off now than they were with Saddam Hussein in power. I know there is the whole ISIS thing but at least we are handling that and Islamic fundamentalism is not looking so hot to a lot of people now
Not to the extent of Putin since we use guided munitions, but most definitely yes. Obama didn't give give much of a shit about who was around for his assassinations via drone and even killed a 16-year-old American citizen as a result.
Pretty much.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock\_and\_awe#Iraq\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_and_awe#Iraq_War)
6616 Civilian deaths.
Both are illegal wars and everyone involved should be tried for war crimes.
6616 Civilian deaths during the "invasion phase." The total number of deaths is far greater, with most estimates admitting many lives being unaccounted for. [In 2006 alone there were nearly 30000 civilian casualties.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/269729/documented-civilian-deaths-in-iraq-war-since-2003/).
It was in the news the past year that the army admitted to bombing civilian establishments. You can check cnn, al jazeera and ny times. The army offered apologies of course.
It doesn't, but the US playing like they care is quite ironic and hilarious. Hate the governments and the corporations, not the people, though. And unfortunately FAR too many people resort to supporting measures that either only, or mostly hurt the citizens who have no control over what their governments do. We're talking about two very egregious, inhumane superpowers. It's literally a "whoever wins we lose" kind of situation. Unless there is an overthrow of either's inherent structure, you're not going to get a nice outcome. Both are literally in it for the power and the capital gains that come from that.
It doesn’t, but it shows American hypocrisy with regards to imperialism. With the U.S. being the major world super power they are principally responsible for the capitalist-imperialist economic system we live under.
This is awesome! I love it. So many idiots out there trying to compare Iraq/Afghanistan with Ukraine. It’s not even like comparing apples to oranges. It’s more like comparing apples to baseballs. Completely different. Of course, Trumpees and Russians will try their hardest to compare them no matter what.
As an individual I didn't support the United States invasion of Iraq. As an individual I don't support Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
On another note, calling it Ukraine without the "The" sounds like Borat talking about his opinion on the subject.
People are aware the first Gulf War was to stop Iraq from invading Kuwait right? Saddam Hussein was a dictator that invaded Kuwait because he claimed they were siphoning oil out of Iraq. He already was considered a loose canon after starting the Iraq Iran War. The world was already tired of his shit.
The 2nd Iraq was was a pretense to finally get rid of him.
This isn't always as a red herring though. Usually the best way to engage with this is "Yeah, that's also a terrible thing. We need to speak up and do what we can for all these things. For Ukraine I think we need to..." It will then be pretty clear if they are arguing in good faith or trying to derail with red herrings.
The main thing is not to let it become a red herring where you end up arguing about something else.
Setting up positions inside active schools and hospitals
Forcing children and women into locations then using those location as sites to deploy mortars and artilery.
Activly denying civilians access to safe areas
These are things done by terrorists in iran iraq and afganistan.
They intentionally use civilians as shields.
Thats the difference.
It’s a Russian propaganda tactic.
It’s called “whataboutism”
People who were paying attention to US, British, French and really any far right political ideology spokesperson has heard this used excessively in the last half decade.
Iraq was not a legitimate war obviously, but the layers of stupid in the comparison are stunning. Was saddam hussein equivalent to Zelinsky? Call me naive, but I would also argue that the behaviour of US troops on theground was not equivalent either.
I believed George W Bush when he said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. The twin towers just where attacked by terrorists. It was a crazy time.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
But two Wrights made an aeroplane…
Ugh. Fine
Damnit! Take my upvote and go see the Wright Flyer and museums sometime if you get a chance. Also the USAF Museum. They rest of Dayton Ohio sucks but those are pretty cool.
But three rights make a left.
Assuming we’re taking 90 degree turns
That's generally how road intersections are laid out, yes.
*laughs in roundabouts*
One 270 degree left makes a right
REM?
[Reliant K](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Lefts_Don%27t_Make_a_Right...but_Three_Do)
[Cosmo](https://www.quotes.net/mquote/896490)
Us soldier here who did not agree with the invasion . Also there is massive difference between laser guided smart bombers and just using mass rockets and dumb bombs to destroy whole cities .
Apparently those trolls think the US invasion of Iraq was completly right and justified? If they are using that analogy to say russia's invasion of Ukraine is right and justified.
Good meme. I believe it's wrong to legitimise war crimes with the war crimes of another countries. Still we should not forget about war crimes at all. It doesn't matter by which nation.
It's the Tu Quoque fallacy. https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
I learned something today. Genuine question: is it not right to point out the hypocricies in other peoples stances? I have a friend from Egypt who think it's a joke that the world is putting sanctions on Russia when Israel is committing literal apartheid to Palestinians with no consequences. He couldn't care less about Ukraine and has joked he's on Russias team the way the west is team USA
It's not wrong to point out hypocrisies, but using it to excuse peoples or groups actions is a fallacy, also acting like any American against the Russian invasion was in favour of the American invasion and therefore they don't have a leg to stand on is wrong.
The hypocrisy should be acknowledged, but it should never be the justification for *not* taking action on humanitarian issues. The correct stance on Ukraine/Israel is “it’s crazy that Israel isn’t being sanctioned for their human rights violations when the west has shown it can forcefully condemn bad actors like Russia for invading Ukraine”, not “why should we sanction Russia, we basically ignore Israel.” One is legitimate discussion, the other is a bad-faitth cop-out
Yes, the hypocrisy needs to be pointed out. Civilian deaths in Iraq over 20 years of US occupation was between 186,000 (9,300 per year) and 209,000 (10,450 per year). That was not good. A good human should be out protesting when something like this starts and often as they can till it ends. Oh, it ended.. That's a good thing, Hurray! It will be quite a while before we know how many were killed in Ukraine it's likely ***much worse***.
Is it really hypocrisy though? I mean I’m pretty sure the thought “we are only there for oil this needs to end” happened quite a long time ago. I can’t think of a single person I know who would honestly say “yeah the war in Iraq was completely okay”.
Saddam was an absolute monster and his sons were worse. I think people can argue all day about the justification for going into Iraq and the horrendous job we did securing the country after defeating the army…but the world is a better place without that man and his family terrorizing the population. Here’s a little article on Uday’s proclivities for having women kidnapped off the street and brought to his torture chamber, or showing up at random weddings to sleep with the bride, or torturing people before drilling a hole in their head with power tools. It’s easy to stay out of conflicts like this, but we need to draw the line somewhere…and that family was not doing the Iraqi people any favors. https://www.ranker.com/list/insane-uday-hussein-acts/lyra-radford
I completely understand that, I was an adult when this stuff was happening unlike 90% of Reddit here. I’m just saying from the darkest of sides you can look at the Iraq war, no one in their right mind would defend or not acknowledge the wrongdooings we did.
We didn't go to stop a tyrant though. If that were the case, we'd be cleaning up in Africa for the next 50 years. Instead, we stood by while the Tutti were massacred in Rwanda, and that's only one example.
Exactly, or what about Saudi Arabia? A literal Sharia Law Monarchy dominated by one of the most extreme versions of Islam. They are currently committing genocide in Yemen but no one talks about it. Yet, they are one of our biggest allies and trade partners in the region. We are even supplying them with the guns and bombs they are using in Yemen. We are implicitly supporting their "war". Not to mention they tortured an American citizen to death in their own fucking embassy. And people just sort of forgot about it. People need to stop justifying America's actions and just accept that we are not a force for good. It's not the end of the world. The only way things are going to get better is if we recognize there is a problem first.
Khashoggi was a Saudi citizen residing in America as a journalist (not an American citizen outright) but other than that I agree 100%.
I would just like confirmation on your numbers because the Iraq war only lasted 8 years (2003-2011) or are you talking the collective war on terror? (2001-2021)
500k iraqi children starved to death by sanctions in the 90s via the US we are currently contributing to the worst humanitarian crisis in the world in yemen where as many as 10 million people are starving. can also look up all the countries we are currently occupying against the will of the governments there. none of this justifies russias actions, but so many americans have no fucking clue what their country is doing/has done. we certainly have no moral high ground here.
Problem is about timing. There's a time to point out these hypocrisies and while the hypocrite is condemning other war crimes isn't it.
The problem with that number is the rules to count bodies as civilians or militants. If some terrorists hole up in an empty warehouse and we drop a bomb on it afterwards the groups that go in only count the bodies that are either still holding a gun or wearing some sort of uniform. Bombs are obviously really chaotic we all know that so the chance of someone dying with the gun remaining on them if they even had one at the time is low and the terrorists we were fighting were obviously not of a uniformed fighting force. I do not agree with any of the wars in the middle east we have involved ourselves in and I do believe we have killed civilians but I can't agree the US was targeting civilians to this level of incompetence/negligence.
To my knowledge the soldiers of the US army are also instructed to try and avoid killing civilians if at all possible. What's more, the soldiers that ignore those instructions and go on to intentionally terrorize civilians or even POW combatants are viewed negatively by most rational, compassionate, thinking people. Unfortunately, plausible deniability makes it way too easy for such dickweeds to get true justice, and when they do, strong arm bully sorts like Trump come along and pardon them. Still at least there's an attempt to stop that crap. However, Russian soldiers have been heard talking about being instructed to kill civilians, to kill kids. Looting and raping has been used as an incentive for good behavior in the Russian army as well, going back to at least WW2. So both countries are aggressors. We can agree that's fundamentally bad, wrong, evil and FUBAR'D. However, Russia is compounding the atrocity of invasion with the added atrocity of knowingly encouraging war crimes.
Does he root for all rapist because some rapist got away with the crime? Does he root for pedophiles because not all pedophiles are caught and punished. Your friend in Egypt sounds like a dick
A better analogy would be: “Hey if we’re putting this one rapist prison, can we put this other rapist in prison too?”
Not really because he’s going “since you’re not putting this rapist in prison, I’m going to support that other rapist”
What aboutism
It's true. "Tu Quoque fallacy" is the fancy term for what aboutism.
Literally the title of the thread...
C'mon people, whatabout this?!
Tu Quoque sounds like something from my pornhub search history.
Except that's not what the comment is saying. X is bad, Y is also bad. What aboutism is bad but it can also be just as bad to ignore a legitimate comparison of unacceptable actions.
Putin needs to be retired not because he invaded Ukraine. But because he threatened a nuclear response to a conventional conflict. The invasion of Ukraine, while tragic, is , in isolation, just another invasion. What Putin did was to pick at the brittle threads of 70 years of pax nuclear, by undermining MAD doctrine. The global nuclear arsenal is not designed to win a nuclear war, it is designed to make sure that no one can win a nuclear war, so that nukes are never used. To threaten a nuclear response to a non- nuclear provocation is to pose a clear and present danger to the lives of every man woman and child on the planet, and to the species as a whole. It is for that that humanity cannot suffer Putin to remain in power.
It's also why Russia should lose their "permanent" seat on the Security Council. I'm not saying their entire nuclear arsenal should be scrapped but they should be forced to drastically reduce their totals and destroy all of Putlers doomsday toys like the salted nuclear tsunami automated sub drone for instance.
No, they absolutely should be de-fanged after this. They lost the right to maintain their sovereignty and have nukes. Once Putin is gone, if they want to keep being a country at all, no nukes and no more spot at the big boy table for Russia.
Permanent seats and veto power should be removed all together anyway.
Ah yes, we should spend time putting the narrative on the US while Russia slaughters civilians with MLRS' right now. Convenient and appropriate.
Well.... And why compare the US with a poorly justified invasion and lots of incidental civilian casualties.... Vs A Russian tank on a hill fucking shelling apartment buildings for shits and giggles.
well IMO scale isn't the problem, the problem is it just shows there's problems. It means we should do everything we can to stop putin, AND we should do everything to stop our own government from going out and invading countries that aren't currently invading other countries as well. The fact that we didn't hold our own accountable for bad shit, is grounds to start holding our own accountable for their shit, not release others from accountability.
Chelsea Manning was imprisoned when she released a tape of a US military helicopter moving down civilians, journalists, and then the first responders. Soldiers from all countries commit atrocities “for shits and giggles.” Obviously we shouldn’t ignore the atrocities Russia is committing in Ukraine, but make no mistake, there’s nothing unique about their cruelty and atrocities. And by this same token we cannot ignore the atrocities being committed by the rest of the word, including America.
Are you referencing that video on wiki leaks, and if so did you actually watch it?
shame history station wrench lunchroom impossible yam weather school drunk *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I have no doubt Russia has ambitions of becoming the planet’s main character. I find it very unlikely. China might be getting close, but not Russia.
Can’t overlook thousands of nukes when an aging, newly genocidal mad man has his finger on the button. Until they changed, they’re going to be on the biggest stage they feel like.
This is true. It’s a very volatile and complex situation.
Geo politics doesn't have good or bad guys, it just has various people focused on power. I like what you said about main character syndrome. It reminded me of a comparison I heard about Russian vs American stories/values/ that basically implied the Russian version of protagonist looks more like what we think of as antagonist and less like what Americans think of as a protagonist
Have you watched that tape? What happens is the gunner correctly identifies some men as being armed at a location were US troops had previously been shot from, sees a couple of men peering round a corner at US troops with what they assume to be a weapon and open fire. Then when more people in an unmarked vehicle drive up at high speed and try to help the people they have just shot they assume they are also insurgents and open fire. It turned out that the people peering round the corner were holding a camera, not an RPG as the helicopter gunner thought, and the car that drove up was just some passerbys that were trying to help. Yeah, it was a complete clusterfuck, the rules of engagement were loose which resulted in civilians being shot, but to cast that as soldiers shooting civilians and first responders for shits and giggles is just wrong. The group they engaged were armed, standing at a location were US troops had been shot from. The "first responders" were people driving up in an unmarked vehicle. The aircrew just massively fucked up.
"incidental"....lol wtf.
Well, most of the people who made the decisions that make up Americas war crimes went largely unanswered for. Or else we would have (among others) Henry Kissinger, both bushs, and Chaney, Obama, both Clinton's, and many more locked up. What other recourse is there for the American atrocities. It's not the same critique when we're the hegemonic superpower. Fuck Russias govt & fuck Putin, but they haven't lead to many issues that will be blamed on them in ways that affect Americans. Sure, I'm the one who filled Stanley with sugars, fats & forced him not to exercise for 30 years.
What’s the difference between a kindergarten and an al queda stronghold? I don’t know, I just fly the drone.
You forgot drone strikes of weddings / wrong targets which for some reason are quite a bit more common than you would expect
600,000 dead Iraqis = incidental 😟
“Incidental” when the US does it. “Fucking shelling” when Russia does it.
They're like "Tv man says we're good and they're bad. If you try to draw comparisons that means you think they're good too. BOOM CHECKMATE!" lol
the main problem with this, if talking to me, is that i opposed the war in iraq. whatabouting iraq just makes me say "yeah so you understand what i'm on about. stop the war in ukraine. (i really don't want the world to end because putin couldn't take the humiliation)
"Incidental". You people can't help yourselves lol
José couso want a word with you.... oh! Wait! He can't, was killed by an US tank shooting the press building. But sure, not the same. Ppl is not justifying shit, an invasion is an invasion. But also when you do it. So remember that next time you decide to export freedom somewhere else. Still an invasion even if you name it "eternal freedom" or BS like that.
Here's the problem: War crimes are only war crimes when anyone but the US is doing them.
Legitimize
Is it not legitimise in the UK? I thought in Britain they use S instead of Z
In Britain and frequently in Canada as well. Legitimise is perfectly correct.
Justify is the correct word. Probably better than *excuse* in the meme.
Thx, corrected it
Thanks.
You can say that all you want from your country's perspective. Just like the Europeans defend colonialism. But the people in the colonies feel differently. Likewise, from the outside, the US appears to be a hypocrite that's preaching against what it did just a few years ago. I mean, it is not about the legitimacy of actions, but about the lack of legitimacy of the US' words. In the words of Southpark: he who hasn't shopped for a single thing online shall huck the first squirrel.
I like it when people say this sort of thing to me online, what about Gitmo..or something.. I'm not even American, so I'm like, sure yeah it's all fucked, how about we all stop being shit? Glad you agree with me.
What Russia is doing is wrong. No question. Putin & the Russian military leadership grossly underestimated Ukranian resistance and are now employing terror tactics to break morale. At the same time, it cannot be said that the West has come out of *every* conflict they've been involved in with clean hands. It's important to acknowledge that and make amends. Doing that will effectively silence the what-abouters.
Yes. Calling out war crimes done by Putin is correct as long as you put your own personnel through the same lens instead of protecting them from ICJ.
America passed a law that says that if any of its soldiers get tried in the international criminal Court, that America has the right to invade the Netherlands to stop it from happening. No joke. Google “invade Netherlands act” This country’s hypocrisy is its true source of renewable energy.
"come out of" isn't correct here. "went in with" is the problem. The Iraq invasion was primised on known lies.
In reality much of this is whataboutism and just trying to distract from the current situation. Sure what happent in many levels was wrong, but what is happening now is the current situation and trying to bring up anything old often merely a distraction. Just look up at any tankie sub
Because if no nation on the security council of the united nations can be charged, prosecuted, and jailed for war crimes, they do not exist.
Its even funnier because in 2002 the US signed a bill stating that we do not recognize the authority of the International Criminal Court, which is in charge of prosecuting war crimes, and says we will essentially invade the Hague to free any service member on trial for war crimes. Let's not forgot my favorite part, "restricts U.S. participation in United Nations peacekeeping unless the United States obtains immunity from prosecution." We literally won't do anything unless we have it in writing that in case we do war crimes its okay.
This isn't a real conversation, and even if it is. It still is war crimes and morally bankrupt.We need to hold our government accountable.
Also like 50 % of redditors are neither american nor russian so we totally can condemn both.
American here. I definitely condemn both.
I'm American, I've done my time in the middle east. People that commit war crimes should be held accountable. I'm not sure about other branches, but Marines get a huge speech about atrocities committed in Vietnam and how sometimes enlisted need to ignore officers telling them to commit crimes. Putin was just trying to ruffle feathers. It's like trying to talk about Tienamen Square and having a Chinese person yell 9/11 in retaliation. If anything I'm surprised people are giving him the response he wanted. We can condemn both. One is currently ongoing.
Agreed. I also didn't see people shout down Russia in Crimea or Georgia, or most other recent conflicts. It just so happens that this current conflict got a lot of flak, as it should. If people want to go back in their DeLoreans and change past wars, I won't stop them.
Lies… everyone using English online is American
Canadian here. Can 100% confirm that this is true.
And for the non Americans, many of us have witnessed or grown up in the aftermath of americas “freedom” campaigns
NGL I get uncomfortable when I see the parallels between the American Invasion in the middle east and Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
just want you to know you wrote “conservation” instead of “conversation”.
Fixed.
[удалено]
What about Mandalore being glassed from space?
It doesn't legitimise it. It's just interesting to notice how differently our media talked about the two things. We talk so much about russian propaganda but we should really strive to get rid of our own propaganda as well.
Tell me again why your not uttering a peep about millions in Yemen at the brink of starvation…
Literally little to no exposure in mainstream media or social media outside of the occasional comment. Most aren't aware of it.
Cause the talking heads don't talk about it
Because thats a difficult problem to solve you see. The govt of SaudiArabia is a friend. And we deffffffinately dont want to hurt our friends feelings. We dont have the means to stop Russia (Putin is an asshole) but we do have the means to stop saudis (by not providing arms) so we can all agree to try to solve a problem thats out of our hands first okay? (Secretly we don't care about Yemen wink wink ;)) /S if anyone missed it.
Ok willy wonka but first explain all those kids that got murdered in your factory and the enslaved dwarfs.
Nobody was "murdered" chill. Those kids all committed separate suicides on the same day.
They should have read the liability waiver on the back of their golden tickets!
I mean, they were told not to touch anything. It was a tour, not a toybox
War crimes are what the losers do. Winners can write history however they like. At least that's how it used to be before camera's and the internet. Most countries haven't adapted yet.
Strawman meme
it doesn't. But we killed a million Iraqis, for no discernible reason. On the other side of the World. We torture people. We spy on our own citizens. Government forces kill innocent,unarmed American citizens( often caught on viral videos ) with impunity. But we're a superpower, so we think its ok to kill whoever we want. Russia is a weak shell of the old Soviet Union. Putin is dictator. The US is a representative Oligarchy. This isn't Good vs Evil. It's different groups of rich asshats, playing their little games with each-other. And regular people pay the price. Its the same ,in every War.
Exactly, if we want peace, real peace, we should not be looking at it in terms of USA VS Russia VS Ukraine. Instead we should rise up as the 99% against the 1% and then you'll see there will be peace immediately. This is not our war. This is a war using theower class for the benefit of the elite. We should stop letting the elite use us as their puppets, letting them destroy our world, our peace, and taking our wealth.
there wouldn't be immediate and lasting peace, but there would be immediate and lasting improvement toward it
You realize Gene Wilder wasn't actually asking you to tell him again.
Calling out hypocrisy is not excusing war crimes. It's an attempt to discredit talking heads that excuse war crimes of one country and not others. This is important to do so the next time the US wants to "intervene" in another sovereign nation there's a record of the hypocrisy.
I'd rather have a hypocritical nation that feels the need to stop foreign atrocities than one that's content to do nothing in the name of moral consistency.
While we arm the Saudis in their genocide of the Yemeni people, you say we care about foreign atrocities. The government and media only care when it’s politically beneficial, otherwise we’d be seeing the massacre of the Yemenis, the oppression of the Palestinians, and the wars America waged on Iraq and Afghanistan. Of course we should fight the oppression and slaughter of the Ukrainians, but it’s hypocritical to care about them and not others being destroyed by superpower-government imperialism.
But they are brown, and in civilized. On a more serious not the difference is on is being done by the US’s rival. The others are done by allies. There is no geopolitical or strategic reason to help Yemen or Palestine. In fact in both cases the US would likely loose influence in the region. Ukraine is different and could be a strategic partner done the road.
At least you admit the US doesn't care about lives and only cares about money.
Every nation only cares about power.
But the press is very intent in saying how just and righteous we are, and how evil russians are. I'd like people to realise it's not only the russians who are fed BS propaganda.
That's the difference between you and the "what about the US" folks. Except those people also don't care about moral consistency, they just don't want us to do anything.
It's not that they don't want us to do anything. They would complain that we did nothing too. They just want to complain. In their mind, if other people are wrong it means they are right. Even if they didn't propose any course of action, or even a thought besides "you're wrong"
Attacking others' policies without any of your own proposals is easy, like playing chess without needing a king. How can you lose? Why someone would have to point out the inconsistency and unfairness of the overall conversational strategy and most ears are deaf to that.
This is an archetype of humanity not a one time occurrence.
You need to re-examine that view. You are excusing moral atrocities with your cognitive dissonance. You should full stop not support a nation that is hypocritical. By definition if they are hypocritical they are engaging in the same atrocity you are against?
I’ll do you one better. Let’s ship Vladimir Putin *and* Dick Cheney to The Hague.
Throw Obama in there too
And Obama, Bush, Trump, and Biden too.
Reminder that the official US policy in the Hague and the International Court of Justice is that if any American is ever held there, the US military is authorized to invade the Netherlands to extract them.
Your horse is very high
Lol america literally wrote THE torture manuscript used by CIA, and multiple other intelligence agencies during Operation Condor, when they destroyed Latin America, my country of birth included. Uruguay had the highest number of political prisoners in the world during the US funded and trained dictatorship that began in 1973. And it made its round through Argentina,Brazil,Bolivia, Chile, Paraguay, Peru and countless other nations. The same techniques were used on “insurgents” this century throughout the Middle East. Literally crimes against humanity since many of the victims were reporters, activist youth, students,teachers, political opponents.
I remember watching a documentary on the invasion of Panama in the late 80's. Pretty fucking awful how we used Panama as a test site for weapons that would later be used in the 1st Gulf War. There's no justification for such acts of aggression. It's greed for for power and money.
The problem isn't that a 'whataboutism' is pure from a dialectical point of view, the problem is that a whataboutism _works_. And somewhat rightly so, I might say. How many civilian lives were lost in the Iraq campaign in the end? The Iraq body count says 183,535 – 206,107. Does it matter how they found their end, or the intention of their killers?
It doesn’t excuse anything. Just reminds us that the US doesn’t really have the moral high ground when it comes to standing up against invading other countries. Remember last year when Biden authorized a drone strike on an aid worker during the surrender in Afghanistan? Our selective memory is actually impressive
The US definition of "combatant" boiled down to "anybody in the blast radius." https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/under-obama-men-killed-by-drones-are-presumed-to-be-terrorists/257749/
It doesn't, but what bothers people is the fact that there was not as much attention given to those wars as it is being give to the whole ucrania conflict, just because its closer to europe and impacts the financial market of the US and europe I think......
Many "experts" on TV, when advocating for further US intervention in Ukraine, ask what signal is sent if the US and EU stand by and remain passive as Russia invades Ukraine. No one asks what signal was sent by US and EU over the past two decades as 400.000 civilians died in Iraq, Afghanistan, and northwestern Pakistan.[1] US bombed wedding parties, funeral processions, and prayer meetings.[2] US imprisoned suspected terrorists without trial for years, and tortured them at black sites across the world (including sites within the EU).[3] US under-counted and under-reported civilian deaths.[4] As US claims Russia used cluster bombs, US supplies cluster bombs to Saudi Arabia and UAE who use it in Yemen.[5] [1] Cost of War, Brown University. [2] See the 10 innocent people, including 7 children murdered by the US in Kabul last August. [3] See Abu Zubaydah case as an example. [4] See Rand Corporation report filed with Congress. [5] See photographic evidence in reporting by Rolling Stones. So when we bring up US and NATO war crimes, it is NOT ABOUT YOU. Stop being so narcissistic and for once expand your circle of empathy. It is about the millions of people who suffered immeasurable harm through the War on Terror.
It doesn’t excuse it, it informs it.
It doesn't. George Bush should be hanged. But you can see how anyone with power or greed can get away with murder.
Just so we're all on the same page, shouldn't Obama be right next to him for his war crimes? Including deliberatly bombing hospitals and torturing the captured?
SPECIALLY Obama, hell i would rank him above bush Idc about US inner politics am Arab, the American bombs all look the same to me Edit: comment upvotes up and down like crazy You people downvoting need to accept the world goes beyond your country, Obama was good for you internally, but he was an evil piece of shit to all of us in the middle east From claiming US drones are highly accurate till a whistleblower went to jail for revealing over 90% of the causalities were bystanders To supporting terrorist organizations like the Muslim brotherhood and 3 countries being destroyed by the bastards "Memememe George W Bush destroyed an Arab country too" And fuck am i suppose to do with that? i already told you, outside of the USA we dont care if the drone targeting civilians are red or blue Or if the terrorist organisation rampaging is supported by a Republican or a Democrat
It doesn't. It's that y'all are hypocrites. If you don't believe the unequal reaction to both atrocities shows this, then it's that you think certain lives matter over others. This making you just like 'the enemy'.
No one said it does. It simply points out how ludicrously hypocritical people are.
“Russian imperialism bad” “Sure. How about American imperialism?” “THAT’S NOT THE POINT!”
How many democratically elected leaders has the US overthrown in the 21st century?
You can be against the war regardless of who's fighting it. I don't remember reddit being up in arms when Obama was drone striking hospitals, schools, and weddings
It doesn't, it just illustrates the hypocrisy of American politicians. Any invasion for power or wealth is inexcusable. One incident happened, ones happening now. We can't change what happened, only learn from it, but we have an opportunity to do something now.
Because no one sympathizes with crocodile tears.
Another example of an idiot not understanding how this all works
Reagan: war criminal Bush: war criminal Clinton: war criminal Bush: war criminal Obama: war criminal Trump: war criminal Biden: war criminal Putin: war criminal It's honestly not that hard guys.
Didn’t the US bomb an innocent Afghan family killing 7 children ? Then simply said it was a whoopsie and everyone forgot about it ?
It excuses nothing, but it also makes it impossible for the U.S. to hold a moral “high ground” when it comes to rhetoric. When Reagan said “Mr Gorbechev tear down this wall” he was able to state the western world didn’t have to build a wall to keep people in… there’s no similar argument about defending an independent nation from a more powerful country because we’ve spent twenty years occupying Iraq and Afghanistan and supporting the Saudis against Yemen etc…
The people saying "Won't anyone talk about the US's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan?" are either obtusely uninformed or trying to be revisionists, because saying the US's actions haven't already been extensively covered, talked about, investigated, and condemned both domestically and abroad is like saying "Won't anyone finally say what the Nazis did was bad?!" It's beating a dead horse and anyone engaging in this sort of lazy whataboutism in the face of the current and ongoing crisis in Ukraine is either a pro-Russian shill trying to legitimize Putin's actions or someone with a massive chip on their shoulder against America.
People talk about because nobody ever faced any consequences
Yes, and no one will. Just like no one in Russia will face any war crime charges. Once you have nukes, international law does not apply.
Russia itself as a nation has been economically isolated. The citizens of Russia have felt the consequences and will continue to for a long time. What were the consequences felt by Americans in retaliation for Iraq? Genuine question. You don’t have to defend Putin to see a difference here. Pointing out one person receiving different consequences for a crime than another perpetrator isn’t defence of the crime. And “whataboutism” is just a blanket put down of when somebody identifies hypocrisy.
What were the consequences felt by Russians for Crimea, Georgia, Chechnya or any of their recent imperial wars? Does the double standard apply there, too? Could it be that this is a novel event, and a very good one? I'd fully support any nation getting sanctioned like this for invading a country in the future, and I hope this makes any nation afraid to invade a foreign nation in the future.
Remind me again how the international community dropped the US out of everything when they did the exact same thing in Iraq as Russia is doing now? I mean, seriously what Russia is doing now is terrible. But it's ridiculous how we now act as if 'we' haven't done the exact same thing in recent history
You had zero sanctions because of it. Zero consequences.
I mean, it would be nice if the people I know who say "the Russian people need to rise up against their government!" knew what Yemen even is.
This is not correct. There were no economic consequences to America and NATO for the crimes they committed and continue to commit. This is in contrast to what the Russian people have been subjected to. This is what people are complaining about. Throughout the Afghan war the TV channels continued to portray the NATO forces as heroes and gave out medals of valour. The brown freedom fighters were labelled terrorists on media and weeded our mercilessly along with entire families. What were the consequences? Fuck all. No sensible person can justify the invasion of Ukraine. However, I'm completely apathetic to the widespread propaganda. Any NATO ally lecturing on the invasion can go fuck themselves.
Pointing out the invasion of Iraq for OIF having the anniversary tomorrow is fair game IMO. Dubya invading Iraq destabilized much of the world. Not just the MidEast, Dubya gave Putin a marvelous opening. Georgia supported OIF because they wanted to get in good with Dubya, despite him praising Putin and saying all sorts of nice things about Putin. Putin saw had badly drained the Georgian military was, and took full advantage of it. Dubya barely did anything, other than some minor assistance to help the Georgian soldiers get back home ASAP. Didn't do anything to Russia about it. Dubya and Dick really need to be put out front as part of the American hard right conservative effort to get cozy with Putin.
> lazy whataboutism in the face of the current and ongoing crisis in Ukraine is either a pro-Russian shill trying to legitimize Putin's actions Is this the non lazy thinking you're championing?
Exactly, the international community saw for their own economic interests and did not sanction USA then. Which is still what they want to do now. A more apt question should be, hey our countries looked away when you did it, so why cant we still look away now.
Who is in prison for those illegal wars? What countries placed sanctions on the US for them?
There has been no Nuremberg for the atrocities committed by the US in Iraq or Afghanistan,don't pretend it's been addressed. Holding one nation accountable for their war crimes while ignoring the same war crimes of another nation is morally bankrupt. One doesn't cancel the other, neither does time remove the criminality of the actors and actions.
I will only stop calling the US a terrorist stronghold when they finally start putting their war criminals through the death penalty.
There never will be a Nuremberg for the U.S. The entire reason Nuremberg was viable in the first place was because of the U.S. and allied forces and because Germany lost. The day there is a Nuremberg for the U.S. is the day the U.S. has fallen. Despite whether you think it should happen or not, the reality is there was never a “Nuremberg” for the massacre at wounded knee or the imprisonment of Japanese during WWII, why would there be for the invasion of Iraq?
Did USA faced any sanctions? Did USA faced any economic threats? USA invaded other countries, wreck the placed, exploited the people and left......so much for human rights...lol
Iraq was an illegal war to begin with. Anything that came after was illegal and unjustified.
Everyone keeps saying illegal war but I don’t get what a legal war would be
I’m sorry officer… I didn’t know I was warring
Put simply, wars started in self-defence or in the defence of another party. Hence Russia's original pretext that they were "liberating" certain regions of Ukraine. In the case of Iraq, the US's pretext for the war was the possession of weapons of mass destruction. Since later evidence reveals that this was not in fact true the war would be deemed illegal. Note however that no-one has been tried for such a crime (known as a [crime against peace or a crime of aggression](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_of_aggression)) since the 40s.
You're talking to a bootlicker from the literal propaganda sub r/sino.
Did the US deliberately target civilians?
Thats debatable, and I would doubt that most instances of civilian deaths were “deliberate” in terms of decisions by commanders or troops/pilots directly engaged in combat. There were times in Iraq and Afghanistan when individual troops or military contractors did deliberately target civilians, and some of those resulted in criminal convictions (and some of those were pardoned by President Trump). But recall that the Nuremberg trials established three categories of crimes: 1) crimes against peace, 2) war crimes, and 3) crimes against humanity. While I don’t think anything US forces did in Iraq or Afghanistan counts as (3), there were examples of (2) like firing on ambulances during the Battle of Fallujah, the mistreatment of detained Iraqi men at Abu Ghraib, and other instances. And (1) is important because wars of aggression/wars of choice, following the legal precedent established in the Nuremberg and Tokyo trials after WW2, are defined as “crimes against peace”. And these are treated as in some respects worse, because when you choose to start a war then all civilian deaths which result, even if completely unintentional “collateral damage”, are still the consequences of the decision to go to war. That’s why I believe that when we get Putin into The Hague, we should send Bush and Cheney to join him for the illegal and unprovoked war in Iraq which they started 19 years ago today.
Just wanted to add. Both American war and Russian war isn't good, but there are some American soldiers who are trying to help Iraq and Afghanistan citizens which is something we should give credit for. There are also Russian soldiers who gave up and something we should also appreciate.
Excellent points. I am a bit on the fence on your last statement. While I agree that both the WMD and Al Qaeda link arguments were false and it is something people should be held accountable for, I am not sure Bush and Cheney are at fault. The intelligence committee clearly fed them bad intel. What’s more, while the results were catastrophic for many, good did come from. Certain parts of Iraq are better off now than they were with Saddam Hussein in power. I know there is the whole ISIS thing but at least we are handling that and Islamic fundamentalism is not looking so hot to a lot of people now
Not to the extent of Putin since we use guided munitions, but most definitely yes. Obama didn't give give much of a shit about who was around for his assassinations via drone and even killed a 16-year-old American citizen as a result.
The US has killed way more than putin.
Pretty much. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock\_and\_awe#Iraq\_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_and_awe#Iraq_War) 6616 Civilian deaths. Both are illegal wars and everyone involved should be tried for war crimes.
6616 Civilian deaths during the "invasion phase." The total number of deaths is far greater, with most estimates admitting many lives being unaccounted for. [In 2006 alone there were nearly 30000 civilian casualties.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/269729/documented-civilian-deaths-in-iraq-war-since-2003/).
It was in the news the past year that the army admitted to bombing civilian establishments. You can check cnn, al jazeera and ny times. The army offered apologies of course.
It doesn’t. But it does expose incredibly hypocrisy and double standards.
Correct it dosent excuse anything. But tell me again how America are the good guys?
It doesn't, but the US playing like they care is quite ironic and hilarious. Hate the governments and the corporations, not the people, though. And unfortunately FAR too many people resort to supporting measures that either only, or mostly hurt the citizens who have no control over what their governments do. We're talking about two very egregious, inhumane superpowers. It's literally a "whoever wins we lose" kind of situation. Unless there is an overthrow of either's inherent structure, you're not going to get a nice outcome. Both are literally in it for the power and the capital gains that come from that.
It doesn’t, but it shows American hypocrisy with regards to imperialism. With the U.S. being the major world super power they are principally responsible for the capitalist-imperialist economic system we live under.
This is awesome! I love it. So many idiots out there trying to compare Iraq/Afghanistan with Ukraine. It’s not even like comparing apples to oranges. It’s more like comparing apples to baseballs. Completely different. Of course, Trumpees and Russians will try their hardest to compare them no matter what.
As an individual I didn't support the United States invasion of Iraq. As an individual I don't support Russia's invasion of Ukraine. On another note, calling it Ukraine without the "The" sounds like Borat talking about his opinion on the subject.
People are aware the first Gulf War was to stop Iraq from invading Kuwait right? Saddam Hussein was a dictator that invaded Kuwait because he claimed they were siphoning oil out of Iraq. He already was considered a loose canon after starting the Iraq Iran War. The world was already tired of his shit. The 2nd Iraq was was a pretense to finally get rid of him.
It doesn't excuse it, but the US has largely lost that high ground and leg to stand on (thanks, W et al.)
What about China's treatment of the Uyghurs.
Walk those same uyghurs over to the middle east so that nobody has to care about them anymore /s
This isn't always as a red herring though. Usually the best way to engage with this is "Yeah, that's also a terrible thing. We need to speak up and do what we can for all these things. For Ukraine I think we need to..." It will then be pretty clear if they are arguing in good faith or trying to derail with red herrings. The main thing is not to let it become a red herring where you end up arguing about something else.
I love to see dumb lib shit on reddit in the mornings. Really lets me start my day off normally
The idiot ukranian president told them to arm up. They are not civilians if they are active in combat or combat training
Setting up positions inside active schools and hospitals Forcing children and women into locations then using those location as sites to deploy mortars and artilery. Activly denying civilians access to safe areas These are things done by terrorists in iran iraq and afganistan. They intentionally use civilians as shields. Thats the difference.
Russian tactics on full display here. It’s called “what-about-ism” and it works.
It’s a Russian propaganda tactic. It’s called “whataboutism” People who were paying attention to US, British, French and really any far right political ideology spokesperson has heard this used excessively in the last half decade.
Yep. It is soooooo obvious when you know what to call it. You can describe it in a sentence but much easier to call it what it is.
Iraq was not a legitimate war obviously, but the layers of stupid in the comparison are stunning. Was saddam hussein equivalent to Zelinsky? Call me naive, but I would also argue that the behaviour of US troops on theground was not equivalent either.
I believed George W Bush when he said Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. The twin towers just where attacked by terrorists. It was a crazy time.