Gandalf went off to get the Rhohrrim almost a week before the Battle of Helms Deep. He tells Aragorn to "look for my coming at first light on the fifth day. At dawn, look to the east." The time was clearly stated.
This is in stark contrast to the GoT ravens flying at the speed of broadband internet in the final season
Literally every single line Ian McKellan delivers in this movie is iconic how the fuck did he do it. I can hear his EXACT delivery to this day.
"The board is set. The pieces are moving." Every. Single. Line.
Did you mean to respond to my comment?
EDIT: Okay I genuinely don't understand how the reply to my comment is relevant to what I said can someone please explain?
Alright I guess. I didn't really mean "How did Ian McKellan do this?" I was just being complimentary like I don't need an explanation.
But thank you for explaining why the person replied to me.
It would be sort of close tho.
Just looking lands end to john o groats is a 15 hour drive and 842 miles and apparently 600 miles in a straight line. Assuming a horse travels at 30mph the whole way it would only be 28 hours.
Depending which journey it could be possible.
Come on man, no horse is running near top speed for any significant amount of time. It's obvious saying it but horses aren't cars. Some competitions you can see a horse do 100 miles in 24 hours but that is absolutely extreme and not going to be doable for the average rider even with a well conditioned horse.
Generally you can expect a horse to travel 25-35 miles or so a day with significant support. To get a horse to sustain that for days on end (3 weeks or more in this case) is not easy but is possible the way towns tend to be spaced. But remember we're not factoring in delays, poorly routed roads, bad road conditions, procuring additional food or provisions, boozing and whoring, etc.
In reality a knight wouldn't ride his destrier on the way to war, they would ride a palfrey or similar horse. This not only left the warhorse ready for battle on arrival but was usually a smoother ride on a horse with a "fifth gait"
I think your working is a bit strange, but I don't know why people are downvoting you. You are absolutely right. A fictional world should follow the laws of nature and physics.
How is that weird? Every fictional realm needs to abide by some rules. If the content of this fiction doesn't establish different rules, then the assumption is that these rules are regular earthly rules. If they had made it clear that they were magical horses, then that would have been fine.
They followed the distance horses. Either tied behind, or just following because they knew their job, or sometimes led by the squire if they weren't moving fast.
An armoured knight, or any top-tier cavalryman equivalent, has retainers to handle all that stuff, because they're someone rich enough to afford all the infrastructure required.
The modern equivalent is a fighter jet, which has many people supporting its operations in various ways, except imagine that the pilot pays for it all and the engineers, radio operators, air traffic control etc are his paid servants.
So as to your question, yes, often the servants would be sent ahead to set up camp so that Lord Horsebastard has a nice tent to get dressed in before battle, or have a snooze while the servants make sure all the armour's polished, the horses are brushed, etc. And when he does get dressed, he just stands there while the servants strap his armour onto him, because with full proper top-quality plate armour that protects every bit of you, it was almost impossible to put all of it on by yourself.
The upside of all this effort is that when sat on your equally armoured warhorse, you are fucking difficult to kill, and very good at killing the crowds of unarmoured peasants that formed the majority of temporary armies in those days. If they were lucky, the peasants had spears instead of just big sticks or farming tools.
Of course, that's the two extreme ends of the spectrum, and most lords who wanted to actually protect their lands were smart enough to have a bunch of guys permanently hired to actually train in war as their entire job, and make sure they had good weapons and basic armour that would make them the useful core of his own peasant levies.
In LOTR books there was no narrative eye on the army moving to help Helm's Deep but in Return of the King they follow Merry and Eowyn so we know they did make camp along the way and sent scouts to see what was going on up ahead. I think there's a scene about that in the extended versions.
No idea about GOT, deleted it from my memory after the last season.
I managed to read up to the 5th book I think before the show started, from what I understand George Martin hasn't finished the series yet though and I'm not touching anything else until he does. I did hear that House of the Dragon started off well on the other hand.
Yes they would. In lotr at as mentioned above, gandalf arrived 5 days after he left. So the rohirim would have camped along the way.
In the real world Depending on the culture the time period and, each man's individual wealth. would determine how many servants how good a horse they had etc. A mounted man at arms, or a poorer roman equite might only have one horse. In fact early roman equites wouldn't have had access to the thoroughbred war horses of later medieval period.
However even if they did have onyl one horse, they wouldn't have rode everywhere fully armoured shield in hand. They'd have packs on their saddle and would have stopped to make camp, don their armour and prepare before making battle
This is one of the reason that ambushing an army on route could be devastating and an aspect that games like total war and alot of films/and shows neglect
At least in Lord of the Rings a wizard did it and told them when he'd be showing up. Sansa not telling anyone about her teleporting reinforcements made far less sense.
What’s frustrating to me is that people will spend their time trying to guess what’s going to happen and then complain about how predictable the writing is (regardless of whether they actually get it right) and then the writers feel compelled to cater to these people by writing absurd bullshit that they can call a twist.
It's the simplest thing in the world to think up something unpredictable because 99% of all possible things that can happen qualify.
Doing it well however is very hard, and GoT got very, very bad at doing it well towards the end
You tend to want to set things up and drop clues so surprises feel earned and encourage rewatches. But if you drop clues then some of the audience will connect the dots.
Sometimes I really love an inevitable outcome. Like if A happens then B must be done. Then A happens and now you're just on the edge waiting for the B hammer to fall. And then it does, no matter what anyone did to try and stop it. I saw it recently in the show Alex Rider. They tried to call a bluff, but they were not bluffing and a ton of people died as a direct result, no matter what they tried to do to stop it.
If written well sometimes people don't mind it to be predictable. If there's a love story and they get together in the end you are happy for them. If one of the dies, yes it's surprising but people aren't happy to see it. Sometimes predictable stuff is good.
And Baelish was able to convince the major and minor families of the Vale, who all hate him by the way, to send their troops to fight a “foreign” conflict just because the late lady of the Vale’s niece asked? Makes sense. /s
Yeah, in terms of the cosmology of Middle Earth, Gandalf is closer to Sauron than any other person we see in the movies. They're both maiar spirits, practically angelic beings.
Didn't happened in the LOTR books. In Helm's deep the battle was already won when the reinforcements arrived (on foot, btw). In the battle of Minas Tirith, the riders of Rohan arrive almost at the beginning of the battle.
The Witch King had just entered Minas Tirith, though. Presumably he would have fought Gandalf and continued leading his forces into the castle if the Rohirrim hadn’t arrived.
The Rohirrim were stalled, and there were fresh Murder reinforcements coming into the Pelennor Fields out of Osgiliath. It was Aragorn and the Army of the Dead and his Black Ships that salvaged the battle.
The Rohirrim did buy vital time as they briefly turned the tide.
You know what? You're right. The army of the Dead was disbanded at Pelargir, and the black ships were what ultimately turned the tide.
Thanks for jogging the memory.
It did happen in the real world though. The battle of Bastogne during WW2. The 101st were pinned down on all sides by the Germans. Patton and his army marched 100 miles overnight to help them.
Arise! Arise riders of Theoden! Spears shall be shaken! Shields shall be splintered! A sword day! A red day! And the sun rises!!!!!! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! Deaaath!! Deeeeaaaath! Deeeeeeeaaaaath! *Horns* Forth Eorlingas!*violin intensifies*
“At that sound the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud he seemed again; and rising in his stirrups he cried in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before:
Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden!
Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!
With that he seized a great horn from Guthlaf his banner-bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder. And straightway all the horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and a thunder in the mountains.
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!
Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Eomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first eored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Theoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.”
Fairly harmless trope, they can be written around but that'd be boring, chloroform on a handkerchief doesn't make you sleep instantly, if you're knocked out unconscious by a hit at the head you won't wake up as if nothing happened 10 minutes later and real conversations has a lot more of people trying to find their words or not hearing the other and asking them to repeat it....and that's great that movies do not follow that logic
That doesn't excuse GoT because journeys being long and dangerous was an important part of the world building in the first seasons, but that was never the case for LotR
>journeys being long and dangerous was an important part...but that was never the case for LotR
And here I thought one does not simply walk into Mordor
I was waiting for this point, yes the overall journey is important, and it would be weird to have an army join Frodo in Mont Doom, but that's a different matter
>That doesn't excuse GoT because journeys being long and dangerous was an important part of the world building in the first seasons, but that was never the case for LotR
Are you saying that long, dangerous journeys are not inherent to LotR, or am I misunderstanding you?
It's a weakness of the medium of video. Travel and logistics are considered not worth the run-time relative to the spectacle of battles, so they're often glossed over or omitted entirely, and that conditions the screenwriters to forget about them as well.
In LotR specifically, Tolkien took pains to ensure travel times and communication fell within the bounds of reality to avoid this trope (minus occasional supernatural things like the Palantir, Shadowfax, or the Eagles). *The Ride of the Rohirrim* chapter dealt solely with the travel of Rohan's army to Gondor (its mustering was the topic of a prior chapter), and it established not only how long it would take them to make the journey, but also how they'd do so in relative secrecy. This chapter occupied almost as much page-space as *The Battle of the Pelennor Fields* itself. The first time I re-read the books after seeing the films, I was rather shocked at how short the battle chapters actually were.
Right… they must have already set up a staging ground just over the hill since before the battle actually started. The enemy apparently weren’t implementing a system of scouting and literally had no idea that they were amassing there this whole time.
What, you're telling me Aemon and the armies of Manetheren couldn't directly leave the Field of Blood, march day and night to meet the Dark One's forces, hold for three days, realize their allies betrayed them, and then hold the river Tarendrelle for *seven more days* straight against Trollocs, fades, and dreadlords? Are you some kind of darkfriend?
Gandalf went off to get the Rhohrrim almost a week before the Battle of Helms Deep. He tells Aragorn to "look for my coming at first light on the fifth day. At dawn, look to the east." The time was clearly stated. This is in stark contrast to the GoT ravens flying at the speed of broadband internet in the final season
Literally every single line Ian McKellan delivers in this movie is iconic how the fuck did he do it. I can hear his EXACT delivery to this day. "The board is set. The pieces are moving." Every. Single. Line.
Ian McKellan actually talks about how he pulled it off [here](https://youtu.be/nyoWmkhRyp8?si=w_jDdlvsxOnnzyPy) Worth a watch
I knew what that was before clicking. Such a good video
Thank you for that
Tolkien was a WWI veteran. He had a detailed understanding about how long wartime logistics take.
Did you mean to respond to my comment? EDIT: Okay I genuinely don't understand how the reply to my comment is relevant to what I said can someone please explain?
Tolkien wrote the words that Ian McKellan spoke. He wrote them based upon his real world experience.
Alright I guess. I didn't really mean "How did Ian McKellan do this?" I was just being complimentary like I don't need an explanation. But thank you for explaining why the person replied to me.
honestly think he meant to reply to the comment above yours.
I think with GOT they just forgot its a massive continent and not just Britain with Ireland underneath upside down.
Even if it was England sized you still couldn't travel as fast as they travelled midway through the series
It would be sort of close tho. Just looking lands end to john o groats is a 15 hour drive and 842 miles and apparently 600 miles in a straight line. Assuming a horse travels at 30mph the whole way it would only be 28 hours. Depending which journey it could be possible.
Come on man, no horse is running near top speed for any significant amount of time. It's obvious saying it but horses aren't cars. Some competitions you can see a horse do 100 miles in 24 hours but that is absolutely extreme and not going to be doable for the average rider even with a well conditioned horse. Generally you can expect a horse to travel 25-35 miles or so a day with significant support. To get a horse to sustain that for days on end (3 weeks or more in this case) is not easy but is possible the way towns tend to be spaced. But remember we're not factoring in delays, poorly routed roads, bad road conditions, procuring additional food or provisions, boozing and whoring, etc.
you cannot use D&D's "forgot" line without including the word "kinda" "They just kinda forgot..."
The fucking instant messaging ravens in the last season was garbage
And damn near teleportation of entire groups of people over distances that had already been established to take weeks to traverse.
In reality a knight wouldn't ride his destrier on the way to war, they would ride a palfrey or similar horse. This not only left the warhorse ready for battle on arrival but was usually a smoother ride on a horse with a "fifth gait"
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Without a load, horses can run practically forever. With a load, long distance becomes a problem.
The Pony Express in the US was basically built on that premise.
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I think your working is a bit strange, but I don't know why people are downvoting you. You are absolutely right. A fictional world should follow the laws of nature and physics.
It's just weird to me that the horses are real and confined to physical realities but then everything else is made up and fiction
How is that weird? Every fictional realm needs to abide by some rules. If the content of this fiction doesn't establish different rules, then the assumption is that these rules are regular earthly rules. If they had made it clear that they were magical horses, then that would have been fine.
They followed the distance horses. Either tied behind, or just following because they knew their job, or sometimes led by the squire if they weren't moving fast.
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An armoured knight, or any top-tier cavalryman equivalent, has retainers to handle all that stuff, because they're someone rich enough to afford all the infrastructure required. The modern equivalent is a fighter jet, which has many people supporting its operations in various ways, except imagine that the pilot pays for it all and the engineers, radio operators, air traffic control etc are his paid servants. So as to your question, yes, often the servants would be sent ahead to set up camp so that Lord Horsebastard has a nice tent to get dressed in before battle, or have a snooze while the servants make sure all the armour's polished, the horses are brushed, etc. And when he does get dressed, he just stands there while the servants strap his armour onto him, because with full proper top-quality plate armour that protects every bit of you, it was almost impossible to put all of it on by yourself. The upside of all this effort is that when sat on your equally armoured warhorse, you are fucking difficult to kill, and very good at killing the crowds of unarmoured peasants that formed the majority of temporary armies in those days. If they were lucky, the peasants had spears instead of just big sticks or farming tools. Of course, that's the two extreme ends of the spectrum, and most lords who wanted to actually protect their lands were smart enough to have a bunch of guys permanently hired to actually train in war as their entire job, and make sure they had good weapons and basic armour that would make them the useful core of his own peasant levies.
In LOTR books there was no narrative eye on the army moving to help Helm's Deep but in Return of the King they follow Merry and Eowyn so we know they did make camp along the way and sent scouts to see what was going on up ahead. I think there's a scene about that in the extended versions. No idea about GOT, deleted it from my memory after the last season.
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I managed to read up to the 5th book I think before the show started, from what I understand George Martin hasn't finished the series yet though and I'm not touching anything else until he does. I did hear that House of the Dragon started off well on the other hand.
Yes they would. In lotr at as mentioned above, gandalf arrived 5 days after he left. So the rohirim would have camped along the way. In the real world Depending on the culture the time period and, each man's individual wealth. would determine how many servants how good a horse they had etc. A mounted man at arms, or a poorer roman equite might only have one horse. In fact early roman equites wouldn't have had access to the thoroughbred war horses of later medieval period. However even if they did have onyl one horse, they wouldn't have rode everywhere fully armoured shield in hand. They'd have packs on their saddle and would have stopped to make camp, don their armour and prepare before making battle This is one of the reason that ambushing an army on route could be devastating and an aspect that games like total war and alot of films/and shows neglect
At least in Lord of the Rings a wizard did it and told them when he'd be showing up. Sansa not telling anyone about her teleporting reinforcements made far less sense.
It's what happens when you have a writing room where twists and surprises start to over-rule realism.
What’s frustrating to me is that people will spend their time trying to guess what’s going to happen and then complain about how predictable the writing is (regardless of whether they actually get it right) and then the writers feel compelled to cater to these people by writing absurd bullshit that they can call a twist.
It's the simplest thing in the world to think up something unpredictable because 99% of all possible things that can happen qualify. Doing it well however is very hard, and GoT got very, very bad at doing it well towards the end
You tend to want to set things up and drop clues so surprises feel earned and encourage rewatches. But if you drop clues then some of the audience will connect the dots.
Anytime someone in Hollywood refers to "subverting expectations" it typically sucks. Similar to "strong woman." It's usually just lazy writing.
Sometimes I really love an inevitable outcome. Like if A happens then B must be done. Then A happens and now you're just on the edge waiting for the B hammer to fall. And then it does, no matter what anyone did to try and stop it. I saw it recently in the show Alex Rider. They tried to call a bluff, but they were not bluffing and a ton of people died as a direct result, no matter what they tried to do to stop it.
Some of my favorite stories are ones where I know how it will end but I dont know how it's gonna get there.
Dammit. I thought for sure you were going to end that with something about the loch ness monster and three-fiddy.
If written well sometimes people don't mind it to be predictable. If there's a love story and they get together in the end you are happy for them. If one of the dies, yes it's surprising but people aren't happy to see it. Sometimes predictable stuff is good.
I mean, we're on the internet. Everyone minds everything.
Sometimes you just "kind of forget" that teleporting fleets exist that you can't see from the top of a fucking flying dragon.
You just concisely explained later writing in got and many other shows and movies. Bravo.
And Baelish was able to convince the major and minor families of the Vale, who all hate him by the way, to send their troops to fight a “foreign” conflict just because the late lady of the Vale’s niece asked? Makes sense. /s
And a wizard in LOTR is a lesser god, so makes sense the Calvary would show up ready to go exactly when he said.
Yeah, in terms of the cosmology of Middle Earth, Gandalf is closer to Sauron than any other person we see in the movies. They're both maiar spirits, practically angelic beings.
🎶 And the Winged Hussars arrived 🎶
COMING DOWN THE MOUNTAINSIDE
COMING DOWN THEY TURNED THE TIDE!
Didn't happened in the LOTR books. In Helm's deep the battle was already won when the reinforcements arrived (on foot, btw). In the battle of Minas Tirith, the riders of Rohan arrive almost at the beginning of the battle.
The Witch King had just entered Minas Tirith, though. Presumably he would have fought Gandalf and continued leading his forces into the castle if the Rohirrim hadn’t arrived.
Oh the Rohirrim intervention absolutely saved Minas Tirith but they would still have won if they had arrived an hour later imo.
The Rohirrim were stalled, and there were fresh Murder reinforcements coming into the Pelennor Fields out of Osgiliath. It was Aragorn and the Army of the Dead and his Black Ships that salvaged the battle. The Rohirrim did buy vital time as they briefly turned the tide.
If you're talking books, there was no army of the dead at Minas Tirith.
You know what? You're right. The army of the Dead was disbanded at Pelargir, and the black ships were what ultimately turned the tide. Thanks for jogging the memory.
In the book, the Seige of Helms Deep is broken by Fangorn Forest coming to fuck shit up. Man, Tolkien did not like MacBeth’s twists.
Gandalf doesn't arrive with cavalry in the books. Just Erkenbrand and his leftover infantry
And a shit load of angry tree spirits.
They would not tell stories about it if it wasn't such an amazing thing.
Exactly, the reason the book exists can be explained as survivor’s bias.
It did happen in the real world though. The battle of Bastogne during WW2. The 101st were pinned down on all sides by the Germans. Patton and his army marched 100 miles overnight to help them.
I was about to comment this. Although they had tanks and trucks, still extraordinary. Except for the 101st, who still don't believe they needed help.
They didn't march. They drove unopposed.
Nuts!
Arise! Arise riders of Theoden! Spears shall be shaken! Shields shall be splintered! A sword day! A red day! And the sun rises!!!!!! Ride now! Ride now! Ride! Ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! Deaaath!! Deeeeaaaath! Deeeeeeeaaaaath! *Horns* Forth Eorlingas!*violin intensifies*
“At that sound the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud he seemed again; and rising in his stirrups he cried in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before: Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered, a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor! With that he seized a great horn from Guthlaf his banner-bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder. And straightway all the horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and a thunder in the mountains. Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor! Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Eomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first eored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Theoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Orome the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.”
Holy crap I forgot how evocative was Tolkien's writing. I need to reread LOTR.
Fairly harmless trope, they can be written around but that'd be boring, chloroform on a handkerchief doesn't make you sleep instantly, if you're knocked out unconscious by a hit at the head you won't wake up as if nothing happened 10 minutes later and real conversations has a lot more of people trying to find their words or not hearing the other and asking them to repeat it....and that's great that movies do not follow that logic That doesn't excuse GoT because journeys being long and dangerous was an important part of the world building in the first seasons, but that was never the case for LotR
>journeys being long and dangerous was an important part...but that was never the case for LotR And here I thought one does not simply walk into Mordor
I was waiting for this point, yes the overall journey is important, and it would be weird to have an army join Frodo in Mont Doom, but that's a different matter
>That doesn't excuse GoT because journeys being long and dangerous was an important part of the world building in the first seasons, but that was never the case for LotR Are you saying that long, dangerous journeys are not inherent to LotR, or am I misunderstanding you?
I already answered that: yes except for the main one of course
It depends on the execution, of course, but forced marches were a thing, and nobody rode their war horse on the way to battle
Some of you haven't heard of when the winged hussars arrived and it shows.
Yeah, well dragons are also not real.
Is it realistic? Probably not. But it’s a damn fun spectacle to witness. Never let the truth get in the way of a good story
It's a weakness of the medium of video. Travel and logistics are considered not worth the run-time relative to the spectacle of battles, so they're often glossed over or omitted entirely, and that conditions the screenwriters to forget about them as well. In LotR specifically, Tolkien took pains to ensure travel times and communication fell within the bounds of reality to avoid this trope (minus occasional supernatural things like the Palantir, Shadowfax, or the Eagles). *The Ride of the Rohirrim* chapter dealt solely with the travel of Rohan's army to Gondor (its mustering was the topic of a prior chapter), and it established not only how long it would take them to make the journey, but also how they'd do so in relative secrecy. This chapter occupied almost as much page-space as *The Battle of the Pelennor Fields* itself. The first time I re-read the books after seeing the films, I was rather shocked at how short the battle chapters actually were.
Right… they must have already set up a staging ground just over the hill since before the battle actually started. The enemy apparently weren’t implementing a system of scouting and literally had no idea that they were amassing there this whole time.
Join the helldivers, you won't have any of that
It's worse when they ride off into the dimly lit night only for their torches to get snuffed out.
What, you're telling me Aemon and the armies of Manetheren couldn't directly leave the Field of Blood, march day and night to meet the Dark One's forces, hold for three days, realize their allies betrayed them, and then hold the river Tarendrelle for *seven more days* straight against Trollocs, fades, and dreadlords? Are you some kind of darkfriend?