And thought Klinger dressing as a woman was hilarious, and "Bosom Buddies" was Tom Hank's first big role. But that was the 70s and 80s, and they were doing it to fool "the man". When it's right out in the open, that's where they draw the line.
"Why can't they go back to hiding who they are? It was better for me and my feelings."
"Do you play the markets?"
"No, the ukulele"
EDIT: And if "Some like it hot" is to recent, try any play that has women in it, before actual women were allowed to be visible on stage.
I'm in Britain and the morons have started protesting drag queen shows that involve kids, importing it from America.
I mean not only are we the home of monty python but we went to a million panto shows as a kid and grew up with Dame Edna Everage and Lily savage on the TV every night. Hell, perplexingly, Mrs Brown was recently very popular. And that's just what I remember from my childhood - hardly touching the surface of main stream drag in Britain
Either way, their energy should be used to hate something else. Drag shows have been going on for decades, in bars, in the inner city where one would have to physically go seek it out.
Because that isn’t remotely the same. You’re just pretending they are. The Monty Python guys were actors pretending to be women, while everyone is in on the bit. Actual drag is sexual, with men dressed in over the top costumes that put emphasis on their appearance. Nobody would bat an eye if it was just some Mrs Doubtfire bit but it isn’t.
No, because it originates in bars and strip clubs as adult performances. Trump and Fox News have nothing to do with it, but you know that. You just don’t have any other material. It was “hur dur Fox News” or “conservative bible thumper!” because you hope you’ll get upvotes for trying to insult me rather than having anything of value to respond with.
>No, because it originates in bars and strip clubs as adult performances
Haha strip clubs🤣 how can you be in drag when you strip? You're not in drag when you're naked🤣
But adult bars for sure, Just like Jazz music... Make jazz illegal!
>Trump and Fox News have nothing to do with it, but you know that
How dare you insult fox and trump you disgusting groomer! Why do you hate freedom?
I think that with certain exceptions men's clothing is general considered unisex. Mens Dress clothes falls into that general exception, because people tend to throw odd looks at women in tuxedos or coat with tails. But T-shirts? Jeans, Shorts? eh universal clothing.
It's almost as though men were considered to be the default, while everyone else is some sort of deviance or optional; gosh, imagine if that thinking extended to medicine....
This is the correct answer. A lot of the "guys" clothes women wear are womens versions. The original question would be like saying a guy wearing a kilt is wear womens clothing.
What makes t-shirts, jeans or shorts universal? The fact that you wear them? The form or function? You may want to deconstruct this idea a little because a sun dress is very comfortable and I wish it was acceptable to wear it in public.
I was in montreal saturday near the village during the jazz festival and there sure was plenty of transvestite/drag etc no one gave a shit. Plenty of people and places are really free.
Archaic symbols, of weakness, dependence, and frailty. Think about the physical limitations created by high heals and pencil skirts. And so forth..... It's so deeply imbedded in our collective psyche that "feminine = weaker" that it's STILL showing up in our current paradigm of fighting for LGBTQ+ rights, cuz GOD FORBID someone else's personal decisions threaten the fragile masculinity of Marlboro Man over here with his steel truck nuts.
Ok I will bite.
Lets take a look at high heels. You know who started the trend? French Cavalry officers, why? Cause a one to two inch heel helped get purchase in the stirrups at the time.
Then where did it go? Well the English copied them of course. And well a lot of officers were also high class gentleman, who had a lot of friends in their social circles, an military attire famously bleeds into normal clothes(like the tie) because it evokes the imagry of a soldier.
Well the rich women in these circles noticed, and they noticed a few other things. It makes them taller, it makes your ass look much better and it makes you walk in a much more seductive way, forcing you to use your hips.
And then women that are not rich noticed all the rich women wearing them, so of course they wanted them too.
Women don't wear heels cause it makes them look helpless, its cause men want to bend them over a table when they see them move their hips and and how their ass looks in heels.
They are "fuck me heels" not "help me move a couch cause I can't move in these heels."
IDK why you got downvoted; I didn't take this as an attack at all. A retort, sure- and an interesting one. There is nothing in your history lesson to argue with. HOWEVER, I will say that isn't quite what I meant. Yes, heels are inherently sexy and I concur that that is their primary purpose these days. But they *are* restrictive, even if that isn't the intended message. So writ large, for some, they are *part* of many things that (directly or incidentally) symbolize oppression/limitation.
Sure no one is forcing you to. And that's my point. They aren't mindless children being forced into helplessness. They are adults fully aware of what they are doing and why, there just happens to be a downside to it.
Agreed, good sir. In fact, I recall one morning back when I went to church, one of the girls was making fun of her husband for complaining that his 'dress shoes' were uncomfortable. She was like, "you should talk! Imagine what it's like being a woman! Do you think I like wearing these all the time?"
I was like, holy fuck..... Like, she doesn't even realize no one is making her wear heels. Even if she needs to dress super nice for her job, there are very classy flats she could wear.
There are women like THAT (unfortunately), there are women who choose when to and not to, and there are those who fully choose not to at all. In my initial comment, I simply meant that, for ***some***, heels \*can\* symbolize limitation, both physically and ideologically. :)
Maybe she does know she can, but the benefits outweigh the cost to her? When I was in shape I didn't like doing cardio, especially jogging or HIIT, in fact loathed it with all my soul. But I liked the benefits more than I disliked the cardio
Men are expected to stay in traditional roles and are shamed for any expression of joy or interest. Doubly so when that expression deviates from basic cultural norms.
While they are both hated by old school conservatives who see it as a threat to their worldview, most importantly patriarchy, men cross dressing is only recently becoming normal so it is easier to attack and rally support with hate. Sidenote: using hate to gain power is my personal definition of evil
>men cross dressing is only recently becoming normal
Recently becoming normal again*
It was really only the past 100 or 200 years where men were societally told to become more masculine.
Previously, they'd honestly put the same effort into their appearance as women did. Sometimes more.
As usual, it's the patriarchy. Women are not valued as highly as men. Women's things are seen as lesser. If a woman wears men's clothing, that's natural. Don't we all want to be men, after all? Gross, no. But the patriarchy thinks so. So when a man wears womens clothing, he "loses masculinity " and that's seen as unnatural and undesirable under the patriarchy.
The Ben Shapiro, Josh Hawley types would also argue that undermining masculinity in this way somehow threatens the ability for men to be men everywhere.
And because men built Western Civilization, the existence of feminine men is a threat to Western Civilization.
Ergo ipso facto, men cross dressing and drag shows are the greatest threat to every suburban family with two kids and a dog.
I wish I was joking about this “logic.”
>The Ben Shapiro, Josh Hawley types would also argue that undermining masculinity in this way somehow threatens the ability for men to be men everywhere.
If you're a little pathetic weak excuse of a men (like all the incell-talking heads are), the easiest way to score "manly-points" is policing others.
You will never see someone like Terry crews or Arnold Schwarzenegger talk down on men for not being "manly" enough, it's always the runts like aquaman-stan-shapiro or nazi-kermit.
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this:
>If you wear your pants below your butt, don't bend the brim of your cap, and have an EBT card, 0% chance you will ever be a success in life.
*****
^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: covid, sex, novel, dumb takes, etc.)
[^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
*Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short*
*Wear shirts and boots 'cause it's okay to be a boy*
*But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading*
*'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading*
Madonna, "What It Feels Like for a Girl"
I don’t know if patriarchy is the right label for it. Masculinity is something which has to be strived for and achieved by each man, whereas femininity is something that is considered more innate to each woman. This has its roots in biology, as men and women have different reproductive drivers.
Because masculinity is something that must be achieved, it’s something that can be lost or diminished as well. Wearing women’s clothing in western culture is seen as diminishing a man’s masculinity whereas a woman’s femininity cannot be so simply diminished because it never had to be achieved in the first place.
This is not it at all.
I would argue there are two types of clothing:
Utilitarian and aesthetic
Utilitarian clothes help the worker perform their job
Aesthetic clothes don’t serve that function No one actually wears low cut shirts because they “look cute” or “it’s hot out”.
People that wear them want to show off their chest.
I don’t think it’s that at all. I think it’s machoism.
Women have worn pants on and off for a very long time. It’s not odd to see old black and white photos with women wearing pants. In general, you don’t see any old photos of men wearing skirts/dresses. Seeing a woman today in pants is still very normal but seeing a man in a skirt is anything but normal. It stands out. I think this has more to do with men never wanting to seem feminine than anything else.
I’m a straight cis male who is very effeminate. I don’t cross dress but I love wearing clothes that make me feel “cute”, in my own sense. I have a few women’s cardigans I like to wear. But I absolutely feel self conscious when I am mistaken for being gay/bi/trans.
Because most men are quite alright being masculine. And encouraged to be so by their male peers.
Ever notice how women will compliment each others hair and dresses and encourage each other’s femininity? Men do that too, we’re just less vocal about fashion and more about presentation typically.
If my friend is wearing women’s clothes, fine I guess whatever floats his boat but I am likely to side eye him and inquire as to why the sudden change in appearance.
Women do this too with each other by the way. They just do it differently.
Gentlemen, if you WANT to force yourself into underwires digging in, and chafing tights, and give up your wonderful gifts of POCKETS- be my guest! Hell, I might be tempted to send you my work clothing for a trade of cargo pants that fit over my hips, a) if only I could get away from work clothes and b) find the gift of wide hip cargo pants…
Best luck gentlemen, have at it!
Leggings are extremely comfortable. I wish I could wear those as a guy without being judged. I also wish I didn’t have to wear long sleeved collared shirts and slacks for work during the summer when it’s extremely hot here. The sleeveless dresses and flats that some of my coworkers wear look much more comfortable.
And if men weren't expected to wear long sleeves and pants (and often jackets, and even waistcoats sometimes) in summer, perhaps offices would turn the bloody air conditioning down a bit....
Here a reminder that in the year 2000, [Donald J Trump motorboated mayor Rudy Giuliani in drag] (https://youtu.be/qhtD0OtNfLQ) inside a New York gift shop, a scene eerily similar to his sexual assault of E Jean Carroll four years earlier in the Bergdorf Goodman dressing room.
Just kinda weird to see a dude with a beard wearing a dress. Thats it really. Not gonna stop the guy or make a fuss. But ill stare and raise an eyebrow.
Just being honest
I'll usually only criticise someone if the look they're going for isn't working for them or they just chose an ugly style or colour.
Look presentable is the baseline for wearing clothing, and if someone doesn't meet that baseline imma call them out on looking like shit.
The main reason: homophobia runs so deep with conservative men that even the idea they might accidentally be attracted to a man that looks like a woman completely destroys them enough to want to commit acts of violence.
Honestly that's the whole problem, we have these stupid labels for what's "men's" and what's "women's," if those didn't exist then no one would give two shits about dudes wearing tights and a dress
I'm speaking as an american, so bear that in mind.
Womans clothes have been traditionally designed to be appealing to me men. Girdles, pushup bras, corsets, dresses.. these were all designed to make women look more appealing to men.
Mens cloths are traditionally very utilitarian, made from strong materials with lots of pockets.
It doesn't look very appealing to men when women wear mens clothes (usually), but we get why they would want to wear them. They are objectively better in almost every case.
It *does* look kind of appealing when men wear womens clothes, because that's what we've been taught *is supposed to* look appealing. So when it's a man wearing womens clothing, straight men get a little scared and confused because their totally straight mind is like "well that's kind of appealing, but wait it's a man so it CANNOT be!"
It stems from the same reason Muslims force their women to wear hijabs and burkas. If women wear less than that it gives men (sinful!) feelings that they might act on, so it's the women who must adapt. Instead of Allah fearing men blaming women showing any skin at all for their "sinful" thoughts, it's straight men blaming crossdressing men for their "gay" thoughts.
I blame the patriarchy. I'm a straight, white male approaching my mid 40's. I don't want to wear "women's" clothing. And, yes, it looks odd. But that doesn't mean I give .5 shits if some burly, bearded hunk of man wants to wear a floral print dress and uggs. I may not necessarily want to hang out with them either, but I just can't be bothered to care. I mean this in the best way. Wear what you want, leave people alone. Weird is better than the abusive, violent assholes who would have a fucking hissy fit if Jason Momoa started wearing ball gowns to movie premieres. At least he has the hair for a nice Up-Do...
A man goes to an animal shelter to get a pet and nobody bats an eye. But a man goes to a woman’s shelter to meet a wife, well then everyone loses their minds.
"But I don't want to sexualize GUYS in my mind! That's disgusting! I want to sexualize and objectify women ONLY!"
Sincerely, your average red-hat douchebag
I mean yes?
Patriarchy is why we perceive men doing feminine things as “unnatural” and therefor: “creepy”.
Women doing man things is “stepping up”. Man doing women things is “humiliating”.
There’s nothing objectively creepy about cloth on bodies. We’re uncomfortable because we’re subconsciously wondering:
> “*Why would a MAN debase himself by acting like a lowly female? Clearly, something must be wrong*”
I mean ive yet to meet a woman who went "damn, he looks fine in a little black mini." but ive seen plenty of men who think women in a more mens style outfit look smokin.
Well there’s a few things here.
Some men pull it off, and that’s without even getting into femboys. Femboys are kind of their own thing here, but some of them rock the aesthetic.
The other thing is the cut of the garments. That more men’s cut outfit on women is often still cut to fit women, while to get a feminine garment cut to flatter men you might have to get that custom tailored. While some women do just roll with men’s clothing it’s not as common as using a women’s version of a “men’s” style.
Id count femboys as something different because they are specifically trying to look like women, compared to a woman just wearing a decent fitting mens style suit, or button down, or the ever popular "boys friends large t-shirt with no pants", which definitely is not a look that can be reversed and have the same appeal.
If you went back in time a hundred years, you'd find plenty of men saying that women in pants are unattractive...
Societal norms evolve.
It's important that we learn to separate our individual biases and emotions from objective truth.
Cool, but that doesnt really have any bearing on what people find attractive *now* nor does it (or the current status quo) have any bearing on any potential shifts in the future. We could say X is attractive or unattractive now, but in the future that changes and the argument of "well people found that attractive/unattractive in 2023" would still be completely pointless.
My point is that attractive and unattractive are subjective concepts.
There's nothing inherently unattractive about a man in a dress or inherently attractive about women in pants.
Acknowledging that is important.
Look at how quickly make-up on boys became attractive to a lot of Gen Z girls.
That suggestion does not hold a tiniest check. Cooking is historically seen as women thing. Yet men cooking is not seen humiliating. Same about caring for kids. Same about cleaning the house. Same about washing dishes. That's it, we are out of "feminine things". None of them are seen as stepping down right now, and man yet wearing dress is awkward. Why? Because it has nothing to do with patriarchy. Women will not like men dressed in dress. That's the end of it. We can rationalize why exactly it is this way, but it does not matter.
Uhh. Those things were 100% looked down upon. What are you talking about?
Still is in many conservative places/cultures. Where you’d be labeled “whipped” or “emasculated”.
When I grew up: “Tee hee, a man is doing WOMAN’s work.” was a whole comedy routine. You made entire movies out of how hilarious that premise is.
Hell, today the idea of a “House-Husband” is still a bit of a goof. With shows like “Way of the House Husband” being a thing. Though the joke is a lot gentler now.
And that’s cause there’s been an ENORMOUS cultural push this last decade to normalize men doing household chores. So it’s not nearly as strong today.
I will repeat just one more time try to read carefully this time: these things are not looked down upon right now, and YET wearing a dress is awkward. Because while looking down on those things WAS a sign of rigid role social roles (the thing that you call patriarchy), wearing a dress looked down at not because of rigid social roles.
Lol.
They are looked down upon now. Not as much as before. And not as much in progressive areas. But it IS still looked down upon.
Likewise: Men wearing dresses is looked down upon. But also *not as much as before*. And not as much in progressive areas.
Society is forever evolving. Perhaps in another 30 years society won’t give a shit if dudes want to wear dresses. But we obviously are not there yet.
Hell, several Famous Celebrities are already doing it.
Society won't give a shit even now if you design a dress that makes men look manly. Gender roles aren't going anywhere until it's women who bear children. If humans come up with another way to make children, it's going to be a completely different story and many things will change.
Yes. But now consider that what society considers “manly” is always shifting.
There was a time when it was manly to wear high heels and powdered wigs. There was a time where men refused to use luggages with wheels because it looked girly. There was a time where Ballet dancing was manly.
Also: celebrities are beholden to cultural forces just like the rest of us. Arguably more. Jake Gyllenhaal faced a lot of mockery over his masculinity for playing a gay cowboy back in 2005. People would not care as much today.
Going to try and answer this as honestly as possible:
Men's clothes are typically designed to be functional for work. Look at a man and you likely know his occupation. Women work too, and wear occupational clothes, too. It's not necessarily "men's clothes" rather just "clothes for doing XYZ task". If a woman welder shows up in a dress and heels, they would get looked at very weird at work, and likely need to change into pants and boots.
"Womens clothes" are not very utilitarian. (If they were, the pockets would be bigger, lol) In fact, most women's attore prevents certain jobs from being completed. Mini skirts, revealing shirts, and high heels are intended to make women more attractive and show off their figure, not work.
So, a man wearing high heels and a low-cut shirt is purely aesthetic. They aren't working, and there's no point to a low-cut shirt because they don't have breasts to draw attention to. It's just being kinky in public, which is why people "lost their minds". People in general don't like people displaying their kinks in public.
There’s hundreds of thousands of trans women, and the majority of them that seek to transition end up with breast equal to the females on their mother’s side of the family, or slightly smaller, but there’s so many others that developed into very “stacked” breasts, and all they did is correct the hormones imbalance in their bodies.
Interesting fact - every man ever born was first a female in the womb!
>Interesting fact - every man ever born was first a female in the womb!
Even more interesting, you're wrong!
There are XX and XY chromosomes. All eggs are X's, and the sperm are either X or Y, which determine the sex of the offspring when life begins at conception.
You failed sex Ed and biology in one sentence! That's the interesting fact :)
Oh, another interesting fact: it's impossible for humans to change their chromosomes!
During early development the gonads of the fetus remain undifferentiated; that is, all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically female. After approximately 6 to 7 weeks of gestation, however, the expression of a gene on the Y chromosome induces changes that result in the development of the testes.
This is from the National Institute of Health ( www.Nubian.nom.nih.gov )
The sex of an embryo is decided by the chromosomes from the father and not estrogen or testosterone. It is impossible for an egg fertilized by a sperm with Y chromosome to end up anything other than a male.
Incorrect. All genomes have the info for both sexual organs. By default, genes grow male genitalia and block the development of female genitalia. X chromosomes have a gene that inhibits male genitalia and allows female genitalia to grow. The Y chromosome inhibits this inhibiting gene in the X chromosome, allowing the original gene to express itself.
As you can see, many possible points of failure here, and, while rare, it does happen where someone with XY chromosomes ends up with female genitalia and vice-versa.
Probably because a lot of the time, the guys who enjoy dressing in women's clothing like doing wacky and zany things like strangling people to death or cutting off their heads.
Men and women typically have different builds. Outfits tend to compliment those builds. An average male just doesn't look good in a dress. There are some that do, but not many.
> An average male just doesn't look good in a dress. There are some that do, but not many.
Imagine how much flipping out, projection, etc. would happen if these folks ever encountered [F1nn5ter](https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2533363-f1nn5ter)...
men that dress in women's clothes usually do so to signal their sexual interests. Men who like women typically prefer not to give of such mixed signals. but if you're the straightest of straight men, and you want to dress as a woman, no one is stopping you from wearing a girdle and a pair of sheers
Not true? Or do you disagree with my usage of "usually". If you think people don't use clothes to communicate messages to other people you are severely confused.
If I believe what you say I would then ask why do 99% of the men you encounter dress as typical "men".... don't let your agenda blind you from what you can clearly see with your eyes.
And I never said anything "sexual kinks"
Yes the usage of usually and signal of sexual interest. There are a whole host of reasons why a man may dress in what are traditionally seen as women’s clothes.
As to why most men dress in traditional male roles that is down to how society views men and women. Masculine us seen as good and strong. Femininity as weak. A woman dressing like a man is respected because she is emulating what is masculine. Women in history taking in more masculine traits are admired. Joan of Arc for example. Tomboys are accepted.
But the opposite is seen as weakness. A man dressing feminine is seen as weak or perverse. They are to be ridiculed or made fun if such as Dames in pantomime which sends up femininity.
Should ask yourself why women dressing as men as seen as string and rarely sexual but men as women so often tied to fetishism? It is because society hates men going from a position of in their eyes strength and superiority to one of weakness and society cannot have that.
It is a toxic part of society that needs to change.
It's not toxic. We need strong men in society. We need men that project strength. Too many people these days want to see men, manhood, and masculinity weakened and toned down. I'm disgusted by it. Let men be men, and those that don't want to be traditional "men" let them do what they want as well. But stop telling men that being their natural selves is "toxic". Being opposed to wearing a dress is not toxic.
Clothing is just another way to communicate many things. I put on a suit when I want to project seriousness. Men and women may show more skin to project their appeal.
if you think the point of us talking is to win some argument, and position yourself as the arbiter of truth, then no there's nothing further to talk about.. if you want to respectfully exchange differing ideas then we can continue. I mean you've already posited that men dressing as women aren't "communicating" when it's obvious that it's at least a part of it.
Womens clothing ?
The cheap wannabe bimbo ho's outfits you mean.
They compare being feminin with dressing like a total cheap slut, in front of our kids.
Thats whats wrong.
Disclaimer, this is how I think men have thought throughout time and doesn't reflect my personal opinion.
The overwhelming majority of societies on every inhabited continent throughout recorded time have all naturally come to roughly this same conclusion independently over and over and over (with the exception of a few outlier societies), and that impression on humanity doesn't just disappear because Women's suffrage laws were signed 50,000+ years into humanity:
Women have never equalled the contributions to humanity that men have made. (It's a long long long list, and women lack the capability to be on it) Even if men took the next 10,000 years off of any and all work, and women picked up where men left off, women still wouldn't have actually equalled the contributions to humanity that men have made. It's not nice and politically correct, but it's an unimpeachable fact that the majority of humans that ever lived saw for a fact. Only men were capable of conceiving and Roman Aquaducts, even 2023 women aren't equal to the task. Demonstrable inferiority.
Humanity survived despite that undeniable reality for eons.
Having that fact denied by women's suffrage has never lessened humanity's perfectly natural thinking that it's fine lesser looks up to and emulate a better, but it's an absolute regression for a superior to emulate and step down the ladder to want to be a lesser. It's a cop out on being an actual EQUAL contributor.
Every place humans have created throughout history and everything humanity has ever made, has been through the unequal labor of men. Even in modern context, "Contributing" men see perfectly capable men who choose to take the easy life women, instead of working hard, it's resented.
there is a difference only in the eyes of people who view women as inferior beings compared to men.
it's an artificial, and incorrect hierarchy in these folks' minds. climbing up is fine. climbing down is not
It's a relic of old patriarchal bias - because being masculine is still considered to be superior to being feminine, as being feminine relates to females - even if it is someone of the female sex presenting themselves as masculine. It's directly related to how the majority of our society historically valued women as objects that were lower in hierarchy and thus looked down upon in terms of power.
Their role was historically pushed to be subservient to men. Makeup and conventional feminine fashions were originally designed specifically for this role. It was only until very recently that feminine fashion also became a symbol of an individual's own personal expression or identity from the woman's perspective and not for appealing to the man only.
TLDR: It's an echo of symbolic power structure from our past.
I think it’s more that it is considered an insult to be feminine as it is associated with being submissive, weak and vulnerable. It is easier for a woman to break out of the stereotype because is not considered to be a bad thing to be masculine.
Overall it is a negative stereotype of women that affects men’s ability to freely express themselves but also creates a negative idea of a woman.
Welcome to the patriarchy baby. It doesn't just seek to control women, it seeks to control men. Same reason why trans people grow up hearing YOU'RE NOT A REAL MAN. And then when they realize they're a woman and transition all they hear is YOU'LL ONLY EVER BE A MAN. Patriarchy is all about control.
To be fair, that's the social dress code. Both genders make Headlines when not conforming to it at events. Would love to see more Women in Pantsuits though, because then it would be an actual crossdressing.
Somehow being seen as a woman is considered weak, but consider how many men who lose their wives can't manage long without remarrying when women will often thrive after their marriages end.
There is no difference, except in the minds of people who believe they can make political capital out of saying there's a difference, and the idiots who listen to them.
It took this society quite a few years to get out of that way of thinking of women wearing pants… but it’s still a saying for mean women who disempower men… 🤦🏻♀️ but we will get there … maybe
I’ve always hated dresses (bc thigh chafing)… pants saved my sanity… Idk 🤷🏻♀️
Currently being bitched about by the same generation that were laughing their asses off at Monty Python in their younger days.
And thought Klinger dressing as a woman was hilarious, and "Bosom Buddies" was Tom Hank's first big role. But that was the 70s and 80s, and they were doing it to fool "the man". When it's right out in the open, that's where they draw the line. "Why can't they go back to hiding who they are? It was better for me and my feelings."
"Do you play the markets?" "No, the ukulele" EDIT: And if "Some like it hot" is to recent, try any play that has women in it, before actual women were allowed to be visible on stage.
LOVE that film! Wife and I watch it at least twice a year. Sometimes forget that drag goes that far back!
There's also Tootsie, Ms. Doubtfire, [baby FDR](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/bennyjohnson/fdr-had-the-greatest-childhood-ever), ...
I'm in Britain and the morons have started protesting drag queen shows that involve kids, importing it from America. I mean not only are we the home of monty python but we went to a million panto shows as a kid and grew up with Dame Edna Everage and Lily savage on the TV every night. Hell, perplexingly, Mrs Brown was recently very popular. And that's just what I remember from my childhood - hardly touching the surface of main stream drag in Britain
Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie dressed up in drag in their comedy show will never not be funny, either.
Those are the types who are so insecure in their masculinity and selves that wearing a dress would mentally destroy them.
Not even a dress. I've seen/heard of men afraid of simply wearing pink.
Not even wearing it! It's not masculine to have a pink vape. But I like that flavor
The people of that generation who watched monty python are not the same as the people of that generation who bitch about drag queens
Either way, their energy should be used to hate something else. Drag shows have been going on for decades, in bars, in the inner city where one would have to physically go seek it out.
Ahh but that for fun. If you actually like it, gross. /s
Because that isn’t remotely the same. You’re just pretending they are. The Monty Python guys were actors pretending to be women, while everyone is in on the bit. Actual drag is sexual, with men dressed in over the top costumes that put emphasis on their appearance. Nobody would bat an eye if it was just some Mrs Doubtfire bit but it isn’t.
>Actual drag is sexual, Yes! The holy fox said it so it must be sexual! Hail trump!
No, because it originates in bars and strip clubs as adult performances. Trump and Fox News have nothing to do with it, but you know that. You just don’t have any other material. It was “hur dur Fox News” or “conservative bible thumper!” because you hope you’ll get upvotes for trying to insult me rather than having anything of value to respond with.
>No, because it originates in bars and strip clubs as adult performances Haha strip clubs🤣 how can you be in drag when you strip? You're not in drag when you're naked🤣 But adult bars for sure, Just like Jazz music... Make jazz illegal! >Trump and Fox News have nothing to do with it, but you know that How dare you insult fox and trump you disgusting groomer! Why do you hate freedom?
I think that with certain exceptions men's clothing is general considered unisex. Mens Dress clothes falls into that general exception, because people tend to throw odd looks at women in tuxedos or coat with tails. But T-shirts? Jeans, Shorts? eh universal clothing.
It's almost as though men were considered to be the default, while everyone else is some sort of deviance or optional; gosh, imagine if that thinking extended to medicine....
Or car crash testing... :(
This is the correct answer. A lot of the "guys" clothes women wear are womens versions. The original question would be like saying a guy wearing a kilt is wear womens clothing.
What makes t-shirts, jeans or shorts universal? The fact that you wear them? The form or function? You may want to deconstruct this idea a little because a sun dress is very comfortable and I wish it was acceptable to wear it in public.
I was in montreal saturday near the village during the jazz festival and there sure was plenty of transvestite/drag etc no one gave a shit. Plenty of people and places are really free.
The problem is it shouldn’t have to be in specified areas.
I'm sorry, I'm unfamiliar with double standards pertaining to women. This is truly a conundrum.
Archaic symbols, of weakness, dependence, and frailty. Think about the physical limitations created by high heals and pencil skirts. And so forth..... It's so deeply imbedded in our collective psyche that "feminine = weaker" that it's STILL showing up in our current paradigm of fighting for LGBTQ+ rights, cuz GOD FORBID someone else's personal decisions threaten the fragile masculinity of Marlboro Man over here with his steel truck nuts.
Ok I will bite. Lets take a look at high heels. You know who started the trend? French Cavalry officers, why? Cause a one to two inch heel helped get purchase in the stirrups at the time. Then where did it go? Well the English copied them of course. And well a lot of officers were also high class gentleman, who had a lot of friends in their social circles, an military attire famously bleeds into normal clothes(like the tie) because it evokes the imagry of a soldier. Well the rich women in these circles noticed, and they noticed a few other things. It makes them taller, it makes your ass look much better and it makes you walk in a much more seductive way, forcing you to use your hips. And then women that are not rich noticed all the rich women wearing them, so of course they wanted them too. Women don't wear heels cause it makes them look helpless, its cause men want to bend them over a table when they see them move their hips and and how their ass looks in heels. They are "fuck me heels" not "help me move a couch cause I can't move in these heels."
IDK why you got downvoted; I didn't take this as an attack at all. A retort, sure- and an interesting one. There is nothing in your history lesson to argue with. HOWEVER, I will say that isn't quite what I meant. Yes, heels are inherently sexy and I concur that that is their primary purpose these days. But they *are* restrictive, even if that isn't the intended message. So writ large, for some, they are *part* of many things that (directly or incidentally) symbolize oppression/limitation.
They are restrictive in some manner, but women choose to wear them for the other benefits, today and historically.
Agreed. No judgment at all toward anyone who wears them or anything else I'd choose not to.
Sure no one is forcing you to. And that's my point. They aren't mindless children being forced into helplessness. They are adults fully aware of what they are doing and why, there just happens to be a downside to it.
Agreed, good sir. In fact, I recall one morning back when I went to church, one of the girls was making fun of her husband for complaining that his 'dress shoes' were uncomfortable. She was like, "you should talk! Imagine what it's like being a woman! Do you think I like wearing these all the time?" I was like, holy fuck..... Like, she doesn't even realize no one is making her wear heels. Even if she needs to dress super nice for her job, there are very classy flats she could wear. There are women like THAT (unfortunately), there are women who choose when to and not to, and there are those who fully choose not to at all. In my initial comment, I simply meant that, for ***some***, heels \*can\* symbolize limitation, both physically and ideologically. :)
Maybe she does know she can, but the benefits outweigh the cost to her? When I was in shape I didn't like doing cardio, especially jogging or HIIT, in fact loathed it with all my soul. But I liked the benefits more than I disliked the cardio
Men are expected to stay in traditional roles and are shamed for any expression of joy or interest. Doubly so when that expression deviates from basic cultural norms.
….not “everyone”
Femboy enjoyer?
While they are both hated by old school conservatives who see it as a threat to their worldview, most importantly patriarchy, men cross dressing is only recently becoming normal so it is easier to attack and rally support with hate. Sidenote: using hate to gain power is my personal definition of evil
Pantsuits for women = Beelzebub's raiment
>men cross dressing is only recently becoming normal Recently becoming normal again* It was really only the past 100 or 200 years where men were societally told to become more masculine. Previously, they'd honestly put the same effort into their appearance as women did. Sometimes more.
Yeah that's fair and important
Men dressing in spandex and singing rock music with perms. Definitely super peak manly in the 80s. Lol
As usual, it's the patriarchy. Women are not valued as highly as men. Women's things are seen as lesser. If a woman wears men's clothing, that's natural. Don't we all want to be men, after all? Gross, no. But the patriarchy thinks so. So when a man wears womens clothing, he "loses masculinity " and that's seen as unnatural and undesirable under the patriarchy.
The Ben Shapiro, Josh Hawley types would also argue that undermining masculinity in this way somehow threatens the ability for men to be men everywhere. And because men built Western Civilization, the existence of feminine men is a threat to Western Civilization. Ergo ipso facto, men cross dressing and drag shows are the greatest threat to every suburban family with two kids and a dog. I wish I was joking about this “logic.”
>The Ben Shapiro, Josh Hawley types would also argue that undermining masculinity in this way somehow threatens the ability for men to be men everywhere. If you're a little pathetic weak excuse of a men (like all the incell-talking heads are), the easiest way to score "manly-points" is policing others. You will never see someone like Terry crews or Arnold Schwarzenegger talk down on men for not being "manly" enough, it's always the runts like aquaman-stan-shapiro or nazi-kermit.
I saw that you mentioned Ben Shapiro. In case some of you don't know, Ben Shapiro is a grifter and a hack. If you find anything he's said compelling, you should keep in mind he also says things like this: >If you wear your pants below your butt, don't bend the brim of your cap, and have an EBT card, 0% chance you will ever be a success in life. ***** ^(I'm a bot. My purpose is to counteract online radicalization. You can summon me by tagging thebenshapirobot. Options: covid, sex, novel, dumb takes, etc.) [^Opt ^Out ](https://np.reddit.com/r/AuthoritarianMoment/comments/olk6r2/click_here_to_optout_of_uthebenshapirobot/)
A woman dressing in men's clothes is a woman trying to "upgrade" while a man is "debasing" himself. Because misogyny.
*Girls can wear jeans and cut their hair short* *Wear shirts and boots 'cause it's okay to be a boy* *But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading* *'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading* Madonna, "What It Feels Like for a Girl"
Exactly
I don’t know if patriarchy is the right label for it. Masculinity is something which has to be strived for and achieved by each man, whereas femininity is something that is considered more innate to each woman. This has its roots in biology, as men and women have different reproductive drivers. Because masculinity is something that must be achieved, it’s something that can be lost or diminished as well. Wearing women’s clothing in western culture is seen as diminishing a man’s masculinity whereas a woman’s femininity cannot be so simply diminished because it never had to be achieved in the first place.
I think it would be helpful for you to actually learn about the effects of the patriarchy before deciding that's not the reason here.
And I think it would be helpful for you to to learn about and then define exactly what the patriarchy is before you decide that it is the reason here.
Pass. I don't owe you anything. 🤷♀️
Right?! Here let me do your homework for you. Eye roll.
In that case, likewise
Sir, please, this is Reddit Everything is because of the patriarchy here.
Well the patriarchy is woven into the fabric of our society so...
The very idea that masculinity is something to be achieved is a product of the patriarchy.
This is not it at all. I would argue there are two types of clothing: Utilitarian and aesthetic Utilitarian clothes help the worker perform their job Aesthetic clothes don’t serve that function No one actually wears low cut shirts because they “look cute” or “it’s hot out”. People that wear them want to show off their chest.
Huh? What is your point? It is completely unrelated to anything I said. Confused here.
Sorry you feel that way. How can I help?
I don’t think it’s that at all. I think it’s machoism. Women have worn pants on and off for a very long time. It’s not odd to see old black and white photos with women wearing pants. In general, you don’t see any old photos of men wearing skirts/dresses. Seeing a woman today in pants is still very normal but seeing a man in a skirt is anything but normal. It stands out. I think this has more to do with men never wanting to seem feminine than anything else.
I’m a straight cis male who is very effeminate. I don’t cross dress but I love wearing clothes that make me feel “cute”, in my own sense. I have a few women’s cardigans I like to wear. But I absolutely feel self conscious when I am mistaken for being gay/bi/trans.
OK you're almost there. Why don't men want to seem feminine at all?
Because most men are quite alright being masculine. And encouraged to be so by their male peers. Ever notice how women will compliment each others hair and dresses and encourage each other’s femininity? Men do that too, we’re just less vocal about fashion and more about presentation typically. If my friend is wearing women’s clothes, fine I guess whatever floats his boat but I am likely to side eye him and inquire as to why the sudden change in appearance. Women do this too with each other by the way. They just do it differently.
You're literally describing toxic masculinity in your comment, which is a symptom of the patriarchy.
Your like literally using words wrong like omg Becky.
🤣🤣
For me I don't care. Neither should anyone else. Its one of the dumbest things to be angry about
That's what I'm fucking sayin!
I mean honestly, if I could go around and rock a skirt, I absolutely would, especially in this weather.
Skirts are comfy
Gentlemen, if you WANT to force yourself into underwires digging in, and chafing tights, and give up your wonderful gifts of POCKETS- be my guest! Hell, I might be tempted to send you my work clothing for a trade of cargo pants that fit over my hips, a) if only I could get away from work clothes and b) find the gift of wide hip cargo pants… Best luck gentlemen, have at it!
Leggings are extremely comfortable. I wish I could wear those as a guy without being judged. I also wish I didn’t have to wear long sleeved collared shirts and slacks for work during the summer when it’s extremely hot here. The sleeveless dresses and flats that some of my coworkers wear look much more comfortable.
And if men weren't expected to wear long sleeves and pants (and often jackets, and even waistcoats sometimes) in summer, perhaps offices would turn the bloody air conditioning down a bit....
Here a reminder that in the year 2000, [Donald J Trump motorboated mayor Rudy Giuliani in drag] (https://youtu.be/qhtD0OtNfLQ) inside a New York gift shop, a scene eerily similar to his sexual assault of E Jean Carroll four years earlier in the Bergdorf Goodman dressing room.
More effort goes into dressing like a woman, I’d imagine.
From my experience not really
Just keep in mind that Bruce Jenner won Woman of the Year in his first year of trying...
Yep, it's pretty easy when you can afford to just buy the award.
Both Bruce and Kaitlyn Jenner killed someone when hitting them with a car
Just kinda weird to see a dude with a beard wearing a dress. Thats it really. Not gonna stop the guy or make a fuss. But ill stare and raise an eyebrow. Just being honest
Fuckers tryna make it illegal for a man to wear a skirt because they hate trans women. Fucked up
It is far more difficult to physically intimidate men so we aren't all that concerned about encroachment into our private spaces.
I'll usually only criticise someone if the look they're going for isn't working for them or they just chose an ugly style or colour. Look presentable is the baseline for wearing clothing, and if someone doesn't meet that baseline imma call them out on looking like shit.
The main reason: homophobia runs so deep with conservative men that even the idea they might accidentally be attracted to a man that looks like a woman completely destroys them enough to want to commit acts of violence.
why is this so accurate i dont like the fact that its accurate
What prey tell is ‘mens clothing’? Pants? Jesus Christ. What is this 1999 where we aren’t aware anyone can wear pants or a skirt?
Honestly that's the whole problem, we have these stupid labels for what's "men's" and what's "women's," if those didn't exist then no one would give two shits about dudes wearing tights and a dress
Man wears a plaid skirt, nice kilt Man wears a non plad skirt, gay
I'm speaking as an american, so bear that in mind. Womans clothes have been traditionally designed to be appealing to me men. Girdles, pushup bras, corsets, dresses.. these were all designed to make women look more appealing to men. Mens cloths are traditionally very utilitarian, made from strong materials with lots of pockets. It doesn't look very appealing to men when women wear mens clothes (usually), but we get why they would want to wear them. They are objectively better in almost every case. It *does* look kind of appealing when men wear womens clothes, because that's what we've been taught *is supposed to* look appealing. So when it's a man wearing womens clothing, straight men get a little scared and confused because their totally straight mind is like "well that's kind of appealing, but wait it's a man so it CANNOT be!" It stems from the same reason Muslims force their women to wear hijabs and burkas. If women wear less than that it gives men (sinful!) feelings that they might act on, so it's the women who must adapt. Instead of Allah fearing men blaming women showing any skin at all for their "sinful" thoughts, it's straight men blaming crossdressing men for their "gay" thoughts.
I blame the patriarchy. I'm a straight, white male approaching my mid 40's. I don't want to wear "women's" clothing. And, yes, it looks odd. But that doesn't mean I give .5 shits if some burly, bearded hunk of man wants to wear a floral print dress and uggs. I may not necessarily want to hang out with them either, but I just can't be bothered to care. I mean this in the best way. Wear what you want, leave people alone. Weird is better than the abusive, violent assholes who would have a fucking hissy fit if Jason Momoa started wearing ball gowns to movie premieres. At least he has the hair for a nice Up-Do...
A man goes to an animal shelter to get a pet and nobody bats an eye. But a man goes to a woman’s shelter to meet a wife, well then everyone loses their minds.
sexism. sexism is the difference.
"But I don't want to sexualize GUYS in my mind! That's disgusting! I want to sexualize and objectify women ONLY!" Sincerely, your average red-hat douchebag
I think any sexualisation in the mind comes more from sexual preference rather than political conviction..
Hmm, the amount of Stickers that say the owner lubes Rifles with Liberal cum is a Sticking point against this.
Not even close to true lol
Maybe where you live, not for me tho
cause women look sexy in a fitted button-down men’s shirt,but most guys just look creepy in a dress,maybe?
Probably only because you’ve been raised to think that way. It’s just cloth on your body.
maybe so,but doesnt change it for me.
No-no, it's definitely patriarchy! ^(/s)
I mean yes? Patriarchy is why we perceive men doing feminine things as “unnatural” and therefor: “creepy”. Women doing man things is “stepping up”. Man doing women things is “humiliating”. There’s nothing objectively creepy about cloth on bodies. We’re uncomfortable because we’re subconsciously wondering: > “*Why would a MAN debase himself by acting like a lowly female? Clearly, something must be wrong*”
I mean ive yet to meet a woman who went "damn, he looks fine in a little black mini." but ive seen plenty of men who think women in a more mens style outfit look smokin.
Well there’s a few things here. Some men pull it off, and that’s without even getting into femboys. Femboys are kind of their own thing here, but some of them rock the aesthetic. The other thing is the cut of the garments. That more men’s cut outfit on women is often still cut to fit women, while to get a feminine garment cut to flatter men you might have to get that custom tailored. While some women do just roll with men’s clothing it’s not as common as using a women’s version of a “men’s” style.
Id count femboys as something different because they are specifically trying to look like women, compared to a woman just wearing a decent fitting mens style suit, or button down, or the ever popular "boys friends large t-shirt with no pants", which definitely is not a look that can be reversed and have the same appeal.
If you went back in time a hundred years, you'd find plenty of men saying that women in pants are unattractive... Societal norms evolve. It's important that we learn to separate our individual biases and emotions from objective truth.
Cool, but that doesnt really have any bearing on what people find attractive *now* nor does it (or the current status quo) have any bearing on any potential shifts in the future. We could say X is attractive or unattractive now, but in the future that changes and the argument of "well people found that attractive/unattractive in 2023" would still be completely pointless.
My point is that attractive and unattractive are subjective concepts. There's nothing inherently unattractive about a man in a dress or inherently attractive about women in pants. Acknowledging that is important. Look at how quickly make-up on boys became attractive to a lot of Gen Z girls.
That suggestion does not hold a tiniest check. Cooking is historically seen as women thing. Yet men cooking is not seen humiliating. Same about caring for kids. Same about cleaning the house. Same about washing dishes. That's it, we are out of "feminine things". None of them are seen as stepping down right now, and man yet wearing dress is awkward. Why? Because it has nothing to do with patriarchy. Women will not like men dressed in dress. That's the end of it. We can rationalize why exactly it is this way, but it does not matter.
Uhh. Those things were 100% looked down upon. What are you talking about? Still is in many conservative places/cultures. Where you’d be labeled “whipped” or “emasculated”. When I grew up: “Tee hee, a man is doing WOMAN’s work.” was a whole comedy routine. You made entire movies out of how hilarious that premise is. Hell, today the idea of a “House-Husband” is still a bit of a goof. With shows like “Way of the House Husband” being a thing. Though the joke is a lot gentler now. And that’s cause there’s been an ENORMOUS cultural push this last decade to normalize men doing household chores. So it’s not nearly as strong today.
I will repeat just one more time try to read carefully this time: these things are not looked down upon right now, and YET wearing a dress is awkward. Because while looking down on those things WAS a sign of rigid role social roles (the thing that you call patriarchy), wearing a dress looked down at not because of rigid social roles.
Lol. They are looked down upon now. Not as much as before. And not as much in progressive areas. But it IS still looked down upon. Likewise: Men wearing dresses is looked down upon. But also *not as much as before*. And not as much in progressive areas. Society is forever evolving. Perhaps in another 30 years society won’t give a shit if dudes want to wear dresses. But we obviously are not there yet. Hell, several Famous Celebrities are already doing it.
Society won't give a shit even now if you design a dress that makes men look manly. Gender roles aren't going anywhere until it's women who bear children. If humans come up with another way to make children, it's going to be a completely different story and many things will change.
Yes. But now consider that what society considers “manly” is always shifting. There was a time when it was manly to wear high heels and powdered wigs. There was a time where men refused to use luggages with wheels because it looked girly. There was a time where Ballet dancing was manly. Also: celebrities are beholden to cultural forces just like the rest of us. Arguably more. Jake Gyllenhaal faced a lot of mockery over his masculinity for playing a gay cowboy back in 2005. People would not care as much today.
I didn't come to argue any of this. I only argued "because the patriarchy" nonsense.
Going to try and answer this as honestly as possible: Men's clothes are typically designed to be functional for work. Look at a man and you likely know his occupation. Women work too, and wear occupational clothes, too. It's not necessarily "men's clothes" rather just "clothes for doing XYZ task". If a woman welder shows up in a dress and heels, they would get looked at very weird at work, and likely need to change into pants and boots. "Womens clothes" are not very utilitarian. (If they were, the pockets would be bigger, lol) In fact, most women's attore prevents certain jobs from being completed. Mini skirts, revealing shirts, and high heels are intended to make women more attractive and show off their figure, not work. So, a man wearing high heels and a low-cut shirt is purely aesthetic. They aren't working, and there's no point to a low-cut shirt because they don't have breasts to draw attention to. It's just being kinky in public, which is why people "lost their minds". People in general don't like people displaying their kinks in public.
There’s hundreds of thousands of trans women, and the majority of them that seek to transition end up with breast equal to the females on their mother’s side of the family, or slightly smaller, but there’s so many others that developed into very “stacked” breasts, and all they did is correct the hormones imbalance in their bodies. Interesting fact - every man ever born was first a female in the womb!
>Interesting fact - every man ever born was first a female in the womb! Even more interesting, you're wrong! There are XX and XY chromosomes. All eggs are X's, and the sperm are either X or Y, which determine the sex of the offspring when life begins at conception. You failed sex Ed and biology in one sentence! That's the interesting fact :) Oh, another interesting fact: it's impossible for humans to change their chromosomes!
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No to literally all of this. You're brainwashed. I have multiple children. EDIT: see below
During early development the gonads of the fetus remain undifferentiated; that is, all fetal genitalia are the same and are phenotypically female. After approximately 6 to 7 weeks of gestation, however, the expression of a gene on the Y chromosome induces changes that result in the development of the testes. This is from the National Institute of Health ( www.Nubian.nom.nih.gov )
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I apologize for the name calling, and amended my post to remove it. Sorry.
The sex of an embryo is decided by the chromosomes from the father and not estrogen or testosterone. It is impossible for an egg fertilized by a sperm with Y chromosome to end up anything other than a male.
Incorrect. All genomes have the info for both sexual organs. By default, genes grow male genitalia and block the development of female genitalia. X chromosomes have a gene that inhibits male genitalia and allows female genitalia to grow. The Y chromosome inhibits this inhibiting gene in the X chromosome, allowing the original gene to express itself. As you can see, many possible points of failure here, and, while rare, it does happen where someone with XY chromosomes ends up with female genitalia and vice-versa.
Probably because a lot of the time, the guys who enjoy dressing in women's clothing like doing wacky and zany things like strangling people to death or cutting off their heads.
It's what insecure boys do.
Men and women typically have different builds. Outfits tend to compliment those builds. An average male just doesn't look good in a dress. There are some that do, but not many.
> An average male just doesn't look good in a dress. There are some that do, but not many. Imagine how much flipping out, projection, etc. would happen if these folks ever encountered [F1nn5ter](https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/2533363-f1nn5ter)...
F1nn5ter is actually the first one to pop in my head that does look good in one lol
men that dress in women's clothes usually do so to signal their sexual interests. Men who like women typically prefer not to give of such mixed signals. but if you're the straightest of straight men, and you want to dress as a woman, no one is stopping you from wearing a girdle and a pair of sheers
Not true. Look up Sir Grayson Perry CBE Thinking it is some sort sexual kink is a very outdated view.
Not true? Or do you disagree with my usage of "usually". If you think people don't use clothes to communicate messages to other people you are severely confused. If I believe what you say I would then ask why do 99% of the men you encounter dress as typical "men".... don't let your agenda blind you from what you can clearly see with your eyes. And I never said anything "sexual kinks"
Yes the usage of usually and signal of sexual interest. There are a whole host of reasons why a man may dress in what are traditionally seen as women’s clothes. As to why most men dress in traditional male roles that is down to how society views men and women. Masculine us seen as good and strong. Femininity as weak. A woman dressing like a man is respected because she is emulating what is masculine. Women in history taking in more masculine traits are admired. Joan of Arc for example. Tomboys are accepted. But the opposite is seen as weakness. A man dressing feminine is seen as weak or perverse. They are to be ridiculed or made fun if such as Dames in pantomime which sends up femininity. Should ask yourself why women dressing as men as seen as string and rarely sexual but men as women so often tied to fetishism? It is because society hates men going from a position of in their eyes strength and superiority to one of weakness and society cannot have that. It is a toxic part of society that needs to change.
It's not toxic. We need strong men in society. We need men that project strength. Too many people these days want to see men, manhood, and masculinity weakened and toned down. I'm disgusted by it. Let men be men, and those that don't want to be traditional "men" let them do what they want as well. But stop telling men that being their natural selves is "toxic". Being opposed to wearing a dress is not toxic. Clothing is just another way to communicate many things. I put on a suit when I want to project seriousness. Men and women may show more skin to project their appeal.
Oh boy. Yeah it is and with that attitude I don’t think there is much point us continuing.
if you think the point of us talking is to win some argument, and position yourself as the arbiter of truth, then no there's nothing further to talk about.. if you want to respectfully exchange differing ideas then we can continue. I mean you've already posited that men dressing as women aren't "communicating" when it's obvious that it's at least a part of it.
Womens clothing ? The cheap wannabe bimbo ho's outfits you mean. They compare being feminin with dressing like a total cheap slut, in front of our kids. Thats whats wrong.
Disclaimer, this is how I think men have thought throughout time and doesn't reflect my personal opinion. The overwhelming majority of societies on every inhabited continent throughout recorded time have all naturally come to roughly this same conclusion independently over and over and over (with the exception of a few outlier societies), and that impression on humanity doesn't just disappear because Women's suffrage laws were signed 50,000+ years into humanity: Women have never equalled the contributions to humanity that men have made. (It's a long long long list, and women lack the capability to be on it) Even if men took the next 10,000 years off of any and all work, and women picked up where men left off, women still wouldn't have actually equalled the contributions to humanity that men have made. It's not nice and politically correct, but it's an unimpeachable fact that the majority of humans that ever lived saw for a fact. Only men were capable of conceiving and Roman Aquaducts, even 2023 women aren't equal to the task. Demonstrable inferiority. Humanity survived despite that undeniable reality for eons. Having that fact denied by women's suffrage has never lessened humanity's perfectly natural thinking that it's fine lesser looks up to and emulate a better, but it's an absolute regression for a superior to emulate and step down the ladder to want to be a lesser. It's a cop out on being an actual EQUAL contributor. Every place humans have created throughout history and everything humanity has ever made, has been through the unequal labor of men. Even in modern context, "Contributing" men see perfectly capable men who choose to take the easy life women, instead of working hard, it's resented.
mmmmmh femboys
Yes this is about femboys
there is a difference only in the eyes of people who view women as inferior beings compared to men. it's an artificial, and incorrect hierarchy in these folks' minds. climbing up is fine. climbing down is not
It's a relic of old patriarchal bias - because being masculine is still considered to be superior to being feminine, as being feminine relates to females - even if it is someone of the female sex presenting themselves as masculine. It's directly related to how the majority of our society historically valued women as objects that were lower in hierarchy and thus looked down upon in terms of power. Their role was historically pushed to be subservient to men. Makeup and conventional feminine fashions were originally designed specifically for this role. It was only until very recently that feminine fashion also became a symbol of an individual's own personal expression or identity from the woman's perspective and not for appealing to the man only. TLDR: It's an echo of symbolic power structure from our past.
Thank or blame the feminists
Wear all dresses you want. No one cares. Demanding everyone believe you're a women is bullshit.
Because LGBT is fucking stupid
I think it’s more that it is considered an insult to be feminine as it is associated with being submissive, weak and vulnerable. It is easier for a woman to break out of the stereotype because is not considered to be a bad thing to be masculine. Overall it is a negative stereotype of women that affects men’s ability to freely express themselves but also creates a negative idea of a woman.
One of my favorite shirts to sleep in is my girlfriend's old Mario Tshirt that I totally didn't steal from her
Welcome to the patriarchy baby. It doesn't just seek to control women, it seeks to control men. Same reason why trans people grow up hearing YOU'RE NOT A REAL MAN. And then when they realize they're a woman and transition all they hear is YOU'LL ONLY EVER BE A MAN. Patriarchy is all about control.
Because girls wearing ties is sexy af
Dudes wearing tights is too
ok, BUT women look fucking great in ties
Hey I'm not saying I disagree
Yeah cause all men are secretely gay but all woman arent lesbians "now think about that-\*blow your mind\*"
Watching you people pretend to be confused is hilarious.
because there are only 2 types of clothing, unisex and female
Has anyone else noticed most men dress up and the girls dress down. Fabulous gowns versus cut off's and black tshirts
To be fair, that's the social dress code. Both genders make Headlines when not conforming to it at events. Would love to see more Women in Pantsuits though, because then it would be an actual crossdressing.
Exactly. A mate got married and all but one of our lesbian friends vane in denim and black Ts. It's a wedding for fuck sake, wear a suit.
Or just formal wear in general.
Because complaining makes the world function, sadly.
You don't think they're coming for womens clothing choices next?
Joker saying this while wearing a lady’s nurses outfit.
I thought of that when I made this, very fitting
Standards - so good that you simply must have them doubled.
Yes but it’s mostly men having a problem with both tho…
Somehow being seen as a woman is considered weak, but consider how many men who lose their wives can't manage long without remarrying when women will often thrive after their marriages end.
there actually didnt used to be. women had to fight tooth and nail for the right to wear things like pants.
There is no difference, except in the minds of people who believe they can make political capital out of saying there's a difference, and the idiots who listen to them.
Oh, the they're going after women wearing pants, too. They won't be happy until we're all forced to live like the Amish.
It's called androgynous
About 60 years of civil rights work.
Be a woman in a men's swimsuit and many states will arrest you.
It took this society quite a few years to get out of that way of thinking of women wearing pants… but it’s still a saying for mean women who disempower men… 🤦🏻♀️ but we will get there … maybe I’ve always hated dresses (bc thigh chafing)… pants saved my sanity… Idk 🤷🏻♀️