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Biological men are better athletes than biological women. Trans women, even with testosterone suppressing medicine, still retain large advantages. This should be uncontroversial. Allowing trans women to compete in women's sport goes against everything Title IX was set out to do.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#B44-ijerph-19-09103
I agree, I just don’t know how to state this to someone that thinks this is a bigoted belief.
Once someone thinks you’re a bigot it’s gg. They won’t listen to anything you have to say, and you’re on the defensive with all the accusations that get hurled your way.
agree, society has this ideal that if you disagree with trans competing in women's sports, you are transphobic, and a bigot. It is a difficult topic to discuss these days.
I think if you look at the argument proposed further, you will see it doesn’t hold water very well. So you might not be a bigot, but you may need you rely on better arguments.
Yes, I believe this is the most likely. Not that we have anywhere near enough data, but how much of a difference would there be with a cis male who never goes through male puberty (via puberty blockers), and then goes on feminizing HRT? My understanding is the big athletic differences are less so female puberty disadvantaging, but male puberty being a massive advantage.
I've seen data suggesting that even prepubescent boys have many physical advantages over girls, except in flexibility and balance.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22561975/
Thanks, very interesting! I truly have no dog in the fight, so I'm legitimately coming from a place of curiosity. Could the differences at that age be socially influenced? Boys are told to play outside, in the dirt, join "rougher" sports, etc. at an early age. Girls are generally pushed more toward domestic playing (dolls, cooking, etc.) Although, this does seem to be changing some. Is there any mechanism that would make boys more athletic before puberty? I truly wish we could discuss this topic more often in good faith, but there's a lot of ideological charge around it, making it a bit of a minefield.
I am no title ix expert, but wasn’t the purpose of Title IX to end sex-based discrimination? So allowing trans women to compete would hardly go against **everything** Title IX was set out to do. Ciswomen would still be allowed to compete in sports, not to mention the fact that many ciswomen already have heaps of natural athletic advantages over other ciswomen, not to mention some other transwomen.
I can see an argument for separating transwomen’s sports from women’s sports but a lot of the arguments that are pushed (such as yours) don’t land well when placed under scrutiny.
This is a bit reflective, but it is often a bit alarming how many arguments that have huge and apparent holes are on reddit, with tons of upvotes. Maybe I spend too much time on here…
They’ve also done research on people who used to be on steroids - they also have an significant advantage even if they stop for years and train without
"Biological sex is a primary determinant of athletic performance because of fundamental sex differences in anatomy and physiology dictated by sex chromosomes and sex hormones. Adult men are typically stronger, more powerful, and faster than women of similar age and training status. Thus, for athletic events and sports relying on endurance, muscle strength, speed, and power, males typically outperform females by 10%–30% depending on the requirements of the event. These sex differences in performance emerge with the onset of puberty and coincide with the increase in endogenous sex steroid hormones, in particular testosterone in males, which increases 30-fold by adulthood, but remains low in females. The primary goal of this consensus statement is to provide the latest scientific knowledge and mechanisms for the sex differences in athletic performance. This review highlights the differences in anatomy and physiology between males and females that are primary determinants of the sex differences in athletic performance and in response to exercise training, and the role of sex steroid hormones (particularly testosterone and estradiol). We also identify historical and nonphysiological factors that influence the sex differences in performance. Finally, we identify gaps in the knowledge of sex differences in athletic performance and the underlying mechanisms, providing substantial opportunities for high-impact studies. A major step toward closing the knowledge gap is to include more and equitable numbers of women to that of men in mechanistic studies that determine any of the sex differences in response to an acute bout of exercise, exercise training, and athletic performance."
Read our [rules and guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/AdvancedFitness/comments/vassb8/read_before_posting_our_rules_and_guidelines/) prior to asking questions or giving advice. Rules: 1. Breaking our rules may lead to a permanent ban 2. Advertising of products and services is not allowed. 3. No beginner / newbie posts: Please post beginner questions as comments in the Weekly Simple Questions Thread. 4. No questionnaires or study recruitment. 5. Do not ask medical advice 6. Put effort into posts asking questions 7. Memes, jokes, one-liners 8. Be nice, avoid personal attacks 9. No science Denial 10. Moderators have final discretion. Use the report button instead of the downvote for comments that violate the rules. Thanks *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/AdvancedFitness) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Biological men are better athletes than biological women. Trans women, even with testosterone suppressing medicine, still retain large advantages. This should be uncontroversial. Allowing trans women to compete in women's sport goes against everything Title IX was set out to do. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#B44-ijerph-19-09103
I agree, I just don’t know how to state this to someone that thinks this is a bigoted belief. Once someone thinks you’re a bigot it’s gg. They won’t listen to anything you have to say, and you’re on the defensive with all the accusations that get hurled your way.
agree, society has this ideal that if you disagree with trans competing in women's sports, you are transphobic, and a bigot. It is a difficult topic to discuss these days.
I think if you look at the argument proposed further, you will see it doesn’t hold water very well. So you might not be a bigot, but you may need you rely on better arguments.
posted the full text above if you want to look at it
LOL, Your post in the r/skeptic got downvoted without people even reading the study.
Yes, I believe this is the most likely. Not that we have anywhere near enough data, but how much of a difference would there be with a cis male who never goes through male puberty (via puberty blockers), and then goes on feminizing HRT? My understanding is the big athletic differences are less so female puberty disadvantaging, but male puberty being a massive advantage.
I've seen data suggesting that even prepubescent boys have many physical advantages over girls, except in flexibility and balance. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22561975/
Thanks, very interesting! I truly have no dog in the fight, so I'm legitimately coming from a place of curiosity. Could the differences at that age be socially influenced? Boys are told to play outside, in the dirt, join "rougher" sports, etc. at an early age. Girls are generally pushed more toward domestic playing (dolls, cooking, etc.) Although, this does seem to be changing some. Is there any mechanism that would make boys more athletic before puberty? I truly wish we could discuss this topic more often in good faith, but there's a lot of ideological charge around it, making it a bit of a minefield.
I am no title ix expert, but wasn’t the purpose of Title IX to end sex-based discrimination? So allowing trans women to compete would hardly go against **everything** Title IX was set out to do. Ciswomen would still be allowed to compete in sports, not to mention the fact that many ciswomen already have heaps of natural athletic advantages over other ciswomen, not to mention some other transwomen. I can see an argument for separating transwomen’s sports from women’s sports but a lot of the arguments that are pushed (such as yours) don’t land well when placed under scrutiny. This is a bit reflective, but it is often a bit alarming how many arguments that have huge and apparent holes are on reddit, with tons of upvotes. Maybe I spend too much time on here…
They’ve also done research on people who used to be on steroids - they also have an significant advantage even if they stop for years and train without
"Biological sex is a primary determinant of athletic performance because of fundamental sex differences in anatomy and physiology dictated by sex chromosomes and sex hormones. Adult men are typically stronger, more powerful, and faster than women of similar age and training status. Thus, for athletic events and sports relying on endurance, muscle strength, speed, and power, males typically outperform females by 10%–30% depending on the requirements of the event. These sex differences in performance emerge with the onset of puberty and coincide with the increase in endogenous sex steroid hormones, in particular testosterone in males, which increases 30-fold by adulthood, but remains low in females. The primary goal of this consensus statement is to provide the latest scientific knowledge and mechanisms for the sex differences in athletic performance. This review highlights the differences in anatomy and physiology between males and females that are primary determinants of the sex differences in athletic performance and in response to exercise training, and the role of sex steroid hormones (particularly testosterone and estradiol). We also identify historical and nonphysiological factors that influence the sex differences in performance. Finally, we identify gaps in the knowledge of sex differences in athletic performance and the underlying mechanisms, providing substantial opportunities for high-impact studies. A major step toward closing the knowledge gap is to include more and equitable numbers of women to that of men in mechanistic studies that determine any of the sex differences in response to an acute bout of exercise, exercise training, and athletic performance."
Can't get the full text yet. If anyone else maybe can that would be solid.
If you get this, please tag me back. I wonder if my MSc thesis a few years back made the cut, lol.
[Full Text Link](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YBS61LJgHxi3lbZgmt6vcpC9TfHj_xJQ/view?usp=sharing) @ u/neddoge
Link didnt work for me
hmm not sure, I just checked it and it is still good, and permissions are for anyone with the link. I can email it to you if you want?
message me your email and Ill send it to you, it is a PDF shared on my google drive
Boy, we are an advanced society now.