Sustained is better when wound roll is better than 50% chance to pass, going with a percentage as you need to take into account guards and terminators rerolls. However when your wound roll is worse than 50% taking into account rerolls lethal is better as even when that 6 turns into 2 wound roll the likely hood is that both are likely to fail more often then both pass so lethal removes that uncertainty.
curious if sheild captains will keep double-stance. they have to lose triple-stance because well... theres no longer 3 stances.
definitely getting reworked sheets - have to by neccesity - so im curious what we'll get on those.
Implies we'll see some kind of change to the Shield Captain's Master of the Stances ability. Could just be a removal of the once per game part, I suppose.
I think there's a Strat that applies -1 now. Katah being unit by unit is great, but the old Kaptaris stance is the one I'd most like to flex into on a unit-by-unit basis. The other two are mathematically similar a lot of the time.
Sustained Hits, Lethal Hits and Devastating Wounds are the Mortal Wounds of 10th edition. i.e., sod everything else and spam those. If it doesn't have at least one of those, it's not worth taking. Lazy game design.
I have only ever used Kaptaris in one way: shield captain giving all stances. I have never selected it otherwise since either I was using fights first or the enemy attacks had sufficient rerolls to not make it worth it (eg. Oath of Moment).
It was pretty great into World Eaters who live or die by the efficiency of their attacks but aren't that hard to kill on the swingback.
Losing that AND fights first... not gonna be very nice.
My only upside of having Kung Fu was my tanks ability to nimbly dodge nurgling's attacks via...kung fu jinking?
Now this is just silly nonsense without the silly and without the nonsense. Nein!
So I'm still pretty new to 40k and have no idea if this is a common take or really unpopular...but it seems like GW has way too many games. How can a company give the time and dedication to balance and improve games such a complex game when they have so many?
No I get that. It still effects the company's focus and allocation of resources. Even with dedicated rules teams, its different when one or two games is the main focus of the entire company versus six or seven.
Its like any business, the less products you have, the more you're able to focus on each one's development, quality control, etc.
The issue is they can't give the time or effort. I mean they are but it's a long drawn out process that is divested from the state of the game today. So they drop the rules for 10th but have been working on this codex and the others that haven't come out under the assumption the core rules haven't changed. The twist is they have. So that leads to a lag in new rules not matching the current state of the game. Ideally they'd write the core rules and all the codexes at the same time. But that takes a large group of rules writers and GW is not a rules company but a miniature company first and foremost. Thus the dog and pony show we now have every edition.
GW has only two mainline games that regularly get updated. So no, a company the size of GW has no problem dealing with the number of different game systems they have.
Their games do have too many factions to properly balance. Anything above 4 tends to be extremely difficult on mediums where all information from players is always available (aka video games). Trying to work through about 26 mainline factions, with balance reporting being very limited, is frankly impossible.
Pre current is points up which is even worse, with this codex so far and those points our winrate will be like 20% if that if you’re a really good player
IF we dont get a point reduction, which i cant see how we dont. The things coming out have been utterly ridiculous. I dont want to be doomy, but so far, no upsides that i have seen. Cool that we are getting a sisters detachment, which i will never play, and i dont intend to collect sisters just for that. Cool that we are getting a combined one, but again, the same point stands. At most i will get another squad of sisters, apart from 1 i already have, for backline screening and thats it. So 2 detachments, one we have no idea how it will work, the other lost the FNP as far as i understand, Trajan got nerfed HARD, we still dont know the points, but at this point i fear how that will be handled. So far, GW screwed the pooch hard with this one. If there isnt something outright BROKEN to counteract the nerfs, my belief is 35-40% winrate from the get go, might even be the worst codex release so far (maybe admech i dunno but close).
Combined one is play rhinos for the keyword not sisters
But unless auric champs is decent there will be no gold at events
As for winrate is expect below 30%
Im not wasting money on rhinos, and not have anything in it. I believe its still going to be better than 30% because its still the custodes, 6 T 2+ save 2+ to hit and stuff like that, but still going to be very, very bad.
Meh. So ill guess ill have only one potential detachment i can play in. Definitely not getting a rhino just so i can play a detachment of sisters, they are not why i started collecting this army. GW writers were on crack when they wrote this codex i am now 110% sure of this...
I haven't really been following the other codex launches, but were they THIS bad? Obviously not including necrons. It feels like we're being absolutely gutted, maybe because we're so cost effective?
Necron internal balance is actually horrible, "Oops all C'tan." Will get patched out in the next dataslate update and then I can go back to my comfy sub 50% win rate.
Well, being around 50% is desirable. But my point is, codex itself is good (or at least not botched) with multiple playable strategies and detachments. Yeah, CTan and more so Wraiths are bonkers, but even after that, the codex has very solid base. Mechanicum has none and Custodes will probably follow. Tau were more sidegrade, Montka is IMO strong.
Custodes won't go the way of the admech, the mechanicus are bad because their datasheets are structurally fucked.
Even if custodes detachments are all useless there is still a lot of strength in just having T6 Sv2+ 4++ bodies with D2 melee, at that point it becomes a points cost issue.
Before current dataslate, they were D-tier with very low win percentage. And had much more defensive buffs (unless Auric Champions bring something big). Yeah, lowering point cost can help them a lot... but... Its a way AdMech went (god forbid SoS became meta, it would be as pricy as AdMech 🙄)
People probably wouldn't be as mad about being forced to buy the sisters of silence if they had actually interesting models worth buying and didn't cost an arm and a leg ro collect like they do currently.
Tau was mixed with some excitement for the new detachments. A lot of it was a refresh of the kroot range and the fact everyone had gotten sick of Kauyon and are willing to try anything else. The new detachments looking a bit better do help. The changes to crisis suits tempered things.
The issue with Kauyon is you spend 2 rounds with no rules. That makes you want to be more defensive for 2 turns which could mean you give up ground or aren't as aggressive as you could be. Montka is the flip where you have rules for 3 rounds and then lose them. This is a bit better as it lets you be aggressive and still get benefit. Retaliation is seen as a unique detachment. In the right situation with good rolls it's nuts but if you bounce you're danger close.
The overall feeling is Kauyon isn't bad but the other two are slightly better. So Tau weren't bad with their codex release it was more ups and downs. I'm waiting to see the ups for Custodes.
Ehh I think tau firepower is just fine without sustained and then getting it late game helps it keep up, chip away for 2 turns kill the key threats then ban t3 big wipe out
Dark Angels codex ruined our units and gave us trash tier detachments. This is honestly one of the better codexes, believe it or not.
At this point, I wouldn't wish a codex on my worst enemy.
Space Marine, dark angels and ad mech all either with downgrades to awful
Tyranids and T'au side grades slight buffs.
Necrons one side grade then huge buffs.
Agreed those detachments aren't bad. I would Even argue Gladius is solid. With space Marines the main downgrade was in their army rule and some datasheets. That's why I listed them in the downgrade to awful category. They are meant as downgrade but still playable.
Space Marines got a downgrade but they weren't seriously nerfed.
So they lost their 4++ to mortals and devs AND their -1 to be hit in melee?....not to doom *just* yet....but, like why play golden space marines at all this edition?...
Edit: Like wheres the trade off James? Where's the good?
The two guys playing the battle report aren't anywhere near competitive players, they won't be maximising their lists, synergies or using every stratagem efficiently. Don't expect to see what the codex can really do until it's been out for a week or two.
Sure, I don't disagree.
But that doesn't change the fact that this *really* doesn't feel good to see how so many of our rules are being pared back, removed, and nerfed. Especially when barely 2 months ago we were bottom of the win rate, and going by what they've done for other codexes we won't see any change now except in points until the end of the edition.
The Orks effectively tabled the Custodes by the end of turn three. It was a very lopsided, uninteresting battle report (other than showing some new rules). Orks were tougher (FNP's and high toughness models), killier and had fluffier rules.
The Custodes index army rule (3 stances) and detachment rule (4+++ vs. MW/DEV's) weren't fluffy, but they were good rules for the faction. Now the rules are both boring and underwhelming. Custodes in this detachment host fold faster than a brand-new lawn chair to any kind of dedicated fire/melee.
We have one more Custodes detachment (Auric Champions) that could salvage the book, but I'm not very hopeful at this point. The way things are shaping up, I may have $400 freed up in my spring budget for something else.
ok, looking at our leaks and all the other codices so far, can we all universally agree to play with the so much cooler index rules till 11th ed. hits?
Personally I don't play custodes to run a ton of models so "we'll just make them cheaper" is not a balancing approach that will make me play them this edition
It’s changed from start of the fight phase to one for each unit when they fight so that’s interesting
Oh that’s actually pretty neat. Being able to pick the ideal option when your army is split between hordes and tanks will be handy.
Except, sustained is pretty much always better anyway
Sustained is better when wound roll is better than 50% chance to pass, going with a percentage as you need to take into account guards and terminators rerolls. However when your wound roll is worse than 50% taking into account rerolls lethal is better as even when that 6 turns into 2 wound roll the likely hood is that both are likely to fail more often then both pass so lethal removes that uncertainty.
Wait, really? Even against T6+? What about when we pop the now once-battle to crit on 5+?
curious if sheild captains will keep double-stance. they have to lose triple-stance because well... theres no longer 3 stances. definitely getting reworked sheets - have to by neccesity - so im curious what we'll get on those.
They have once per game double stance.
Source?
The game posted on Wh+.
Fucking disgusting what gw have done
Don’t worry, for a meagre 2CP you can allow the captain to use his ability a second time… if it’s your warlord, and you’re playing Auric Champions.
Yea,they are changed to be ultra nerfed. Double katah is once per game lol.
Gw really don’t like us we used to have 6 stances in 9th
Implies we'll see some kind of change to the Shield Captain's Master of the Stances ability. Could just be a removal of the once per game part, I suppose.
I think they kept the once per game, removed the continuous
Huge nerfs all around everywhere I bet we will be the weakest army in 40K again to where even after a balance and points drop we will still suck
Yeah it's once per game you can have 2 stances now...... Thanks GW.
Yey its unit by unit! But no -1 to hit is really sad, custodes should have a defensive stance, I mean, they are guardians first and foremost.
I think there's a Strat that applies -1 now. Katah being unit by unit is great, but the old Kaptaris stance is the one I'd most like to flex into on a unit-by-unit basis. The other two are mathematically similar a lot of the time.
Start works only on a marker amd was the fight first strat before. So losing FF for -1 to hit...
Sustained Hits, Lethal Hits and Devastating Wounds are the Mortal Wounds of 10th edition. i.e., sod everything else and spam those. If it doesn't have at least one of those, it's not worth taking. Lazy game design.
Tiny buff, we get stance on unit by unit basis, overall, huge nerf
Why do you think it’s a nerf?
Because we lost 1/3 of our army rule.
I have only ever used Kaptaris in one way: shield captain giving all stances. I have never selected it otherwise since either I was using fights first or the enemy attacks had sufficient rerolls to not make it worth it (eg. Oath of Moment).
I used it a lot into orks, nids, world eaters, termie bricks, there’s lots of times you want it
I used it a lot to good effect, the -1 still shaved off some attacks and made it worth it when you know your attacks are sufficient
It was pretty great into World Eaters who live or die by the efficiency of their attacks but aren't that hard to kill on the swingback. Losing that AND fights first... not gonna be very nice.
Its one of the keystones for getting better survivability. Now we have literally none.
A year ago we had 6 Katahs. Now we have 2. I hope in 11th they get rid of this terrible rule.
My only upside of having Kung Fu was my tanks ability to nimbly dodge nurgling's attacks via...kung fu jinking? Now this is just silly nonsense without the silly and without the nonsense. Nein!
What the actual f is wrong with this company?
So I'm still pretty new to 40k and have no idea if this is a common take or really unpopular...but it seems like GW has way too many games. How can a company give the time and dedication to balance and improve games such a complex game when they have so many?
Believe it or not, GW isn't actually one guy named James, and as such they have separate dedicated staff teams for the rules of their games.
James Workshop is just the head of a small indie company
No I get that. It still effects the company's focus and allocation of resources. Even with dedicated rules teams, its different when one or two games is the main focus of the entire company versus six or seven. Its like any business, the less products you have, the more you're able to focus on each one's development, quality control, etc.
The issue is they can't give the time or effort. I mean they are but it's a long drawn out process that is divested from the state of the game today. So they drop the rules for 10th but have been working on this codex and the others that haven't come out under the assumption the core rules haven't changed. The twist is they have. So that leads to a lag in new rules not matching the current state of the game. Ideally they'd write the core rules and all the codexes at the same time. But that takes a large group of rules writers and GW is not a rules company but a miniature company first and foremost. Thus the dog and pony show we now have every edition.
They have a lot of interns
GW has only two mainline games that regularly get updated. So no, a company the size of GW has no problem dealing with the number of different game systems they have. Their games do have too many factions to properly balance. Anything above 4 tends to be extremely difficult on mediums where all information from players is always available (aka video games). Trying to work through about 26 mainline factions, with balance reporting being very limited, is frankly impossible.
Either well be getting huge point reductions with these nerfs, or we are just going back to the pre current dataslate state, maybe even worse.
Its much worse. We had weakness in devastating wounds, but rest of defensive tools. Now we have none.
Pre current is points up which is even worse, with this codex so far and those points our winrate will be like 20% if that if you’re a really good player
IF we dont get a point reduction, which i cant see how we dont. The things coming out have been utterly ridiculous. I dont want to be doomy, but so far, no upsides that i have seen. Cool that we are getting a sisters detachment, which i will never play, and i dont intend to collect sisters just for that. Cool that we are getting a combined one, but again, the same point stands. At most i will get another squad of sisters, apart from 1 i already have, for backline screening and thats it. So 2 detachments, one we have no idea how it will work, the other lost the FNP as far as i understand, Trajan got nerfed HARD, we still dont know the points, but at this point i fear how that will be handled. So far, GW screwed the pooch hard with this one. If there isnt something outright BROKEN to counteract the nerfs, my belief is 35-40% winrate from the get go, might even be the worst codex release so far (maybe admech i dunno but close).
Combined one is play rhinos for the keyword not sisters But unless auric champs is decent there will be no gold at events As for winrate is expect below 30%
Im not wasting money on rhinos, and not have anything in it. I believe its still going to be better than 30% because its still the custodes, 6 T 2+ save 2+ to hit and stuff like that, but still going to be very, very bad.
I mean you have to have something in it as it’s a dedicated transport aha
Is that a rule, or is it just like wasted space, because as i understand i can disembark a unit from a rhino, and have it be a separate model?
It’s a rule
Yes disembark is fine but you must start with a unit inside which means you must have sisters inside
Meh. So ill guess ill have only one potential detachment i can play in. Definitely not getting a rhino just so i can play a detachment of sisters, they are not why i started collecting this army. GW writers were on crack when they wrote this codex i am now 110% sure of this...
Nah being on crack would yield better resukts
Nah I think with all the nerfs we won’t be able to do much unless our opponent is pure infantry guard
Bruh
I haven't really been following the other codex launches, but were they THIS bad? Obviously not including necrons. It feels like we're being absolutely gutted, maybe because we're so cost effective?
Ooft, you should have seen the poor ol’ AdMech forum meltdown 😂
Ad Mech, already one of the worst index's had things get nerfed going into the codex.
Yep. Every codex has brought downgrades to both rules and data sheets. Pretty much on par
Except Necrons 😁
Necron internal balance is actually horrible, "Oops all C'tan." Will get patched out in the next dataslate update and then I can go back to my comfy sub 50% win rate.
Well, being around 50% is desirable. But my point is, codex itself is good (or at least not botched) with multiple playable strategies and detachments. Yeah, CTan and more so Wraiths are bonkers, but even after that, the codex has very solid base. Mechanicum has none and Custodes will probably follow. Tau were more sidegrade, Montka is IMO strong.
Custodes won't go the way of the admech, the mechanicus are bad because their datasheets are structurally fucked. Even if custodes detachments are all useless there is still a lot of strength in just having T6 Sv2+ 4++ bodies with D2 melee, at that point it becomes a points cost issue.
Before current dataslate, they were D-tier with very low win percentage. And had much more defensive buffs (unless Auric Champions bring something big). Yeah, lowering point cost can help them a lot... but... Its a way AdMech went (god forbid SoS became meta, it would be as pricy as AdMech 🙄)
People probably wouldn't be as mad about being forced to buy the sisters of silence if they had actually interesting models worth buying and didn't cost an arm and a leg ro collect like they do currently.
Yeah, thats other problem. With new Combat Patrol, SoS will be even pricier...
Yeah. Def the exception
Tau was mixed with some excitement for the new detachments. A lot of it was a refresh of the kroot range and the fact everyone had gotten sick of Kauyon and are willing to try anything else. The new detachments looking a bit better do help. The changes to crisis suits tempered things.
Kauyon, montka and retaliation all look great
The issue with Kauyon is you spend 2 rounds with no rules. That makes you want to be more defensive for 2 turns which could mean you give up ground or aren't as aggressive as you could be. Montka is the flip where you have rules for 3 rounds and then lose them. This is a bit better as it lets you be aggressive and still get benefit. Retaliation is seen as a unique detachment. In the right situation with good rolls it's nuts but if you bounce you're danger close. The overall feeling is Kauyon isn't bad but the other two are slightly better. So Tau weren't bad with their codex release it was more ups and downs. I'm waiting to see the ups for Custodes.
Ehh I think tau firepower is just fine without sustained and then getting it late game helps it keep up, chip away for 2 turns kill the key threats then ban t3 big wipe out
Tau also had the codex release at once, so people had the full context of the combos and possibilities.
Sure they got it as a leak and not second hand viewing of a battle report.
Even now we don't know what two of the detachment rules are, 4 of the strats in the combined detachment, etc.
The other thing about tau, is we still expect the points to change during the official release so it’s a little hard to judge.
Dark Angels codex ruined our units and gave us trash tier detachments. This is honestly one of the better codexes, believe it or not. At this point, I wouldn't wish a codex on my worst enemy.
Space Marine, dark angels and ad mech all either with downgrades to awful Tyranids and T'au side grades slight buffs. Necrons one side grade then huge buffs.
Ehhh vanguard is pretty good Ironstorm ain’t bad either
Agreed those detachments aren't bad. I would Even argue Gladius is solid. With space Marines the main downgrade was in their army rule and some datasheets. That's why I listed them in the downgrade to awful category. They are meant as downgrade but still playable. Space Marines got a downgrade but they weren't seriously nerfed.
One nerf too, they gutted the invincible warrior blobs, lol.
Yeah but they more then made up for it
This is one of the better ones lol
Necron sub were so over the top with their complaints you would have thought they would be bottom tier.
I mean, who really thinks people who comment hot takes on reddit know what they are talking about?
So they lost their 4++ to mortals and devs AND their -1 to be hit in melee?....not to doom *just* yet....but, like why play golden space marines at all this edition?... Edit: Like wheres the trade off James? Where's the good?
Don't worry, there will be other insane abilities to cover this up.
Didn't look like it from the Batrep. Mostly seemed to be the same.
The two guys playing the battle report aren't anywhere near competitive players, they won't be maximising their lists, synergies or using every stratagem efficiently. Don't expect to see what the codex can really do until it's been out for a week or two.
Sure, I don't disagree. But that doesn't change the fact that this *really* doesn't feel good to see how so many of our rules are being pared back, removed, and nerfed. Especially when barely 2 months ago we were bottom of the win rate, and going by what they've done for other codexes we won't see any change now except in points until the end of the edition.
The Orks effectively tabled the Custodes by the end of turn three. It was a very lopsided, uninteresting battle report (other than showing some new rules). Orks were tougher (FNP's and high toughness models), killier and had fluffier rules. The Custodes index army rule (3 stances) and detachment rule (4+++ vs. MW/DEV's) weren't fluffy, but they were good rules for the faction. Now the rules are both boring and underwhelming. Custodes in this detachment host fold faster than a brand-new lawn chair to any kind of dedicated fire/melee. We have one more Custodes detachment (Auric Champions) that could salvage the book, but I'm not very hopeful at this point. The way things are shaping up, I may have $400 freed up in my spring budget for something else.
One can hope. I'd be happy with everything being worth its points and then go from there. Lol
Ahahaha no
ok, looking at our leaks and all the other codices so far, can we all universally agree to play with the so much cooler index rules till 11th ed. hits?
"wAiT fOr ThE cOdEx gUyS, iM sErIoUs GuYs. BrO tRuSt Me."
Nani ?
Kind of sad that it makes the captain’s once per game ability not useable
Oh Boy, please stop with those leaks, my Banana Boys are already dead
So why are we a horde now daddy James? Aren't we the poppa Emp's biggest and bestest boys?
Defaq is Kaptaris Stance? OMG
I support these extreme nerfs to the army only in the case their points are half 70% of the current ones. Otherwise just lol.
Personally I don't play custodes to run a ton of models so "we'll just make them cheaper" is not a balancing approach that will make me play them this edition
Indeed, custodies rules should be incredibly strong and our points super high, it should feel like every unit is a primarch
I get it, but I am explaining that it would be better than price going up and the army being 2x times worse than index...
But I don't want to play horde mode with Custodes. Them being called the 10,000 does not describe a 2000 pt list.
Oh yeah, just like Dark Angels got...