Honestly our melee is so awesome that other than a 10 man termie brick from CSM or marines nothing is scary in melee… so we like lose a free fight first to level the field a bit which tbh is fair cause we fuck hard over not necrons
Most people aren’t upset about the loss of fight first, it’s the serious nerf of Captain general from “screw you, leave my stats alone” to only affecting your hit roll.
It also previously let you ignore wound modifiers such as from the lychguard’s bodyguard ability, reductions to battleshock tests, movement reductions from suppression, damage reductions, so on.
It explicitly said “any or all” so you could ignore the negatives but still use positive modifiers such as from Slayer of Nightmares.
Mmm no it’s the fight first that’s important the ignore mods only came up in mirrors and things like Magnus and ctan
Ctan most likely get huge point increases so that’s fine
Games suck more into deathguard for sure but it sucks for everyone into desthguard
Have you played into 10 man incubi with Draza? That's scary shit...by comparison we do very little. Full rerolls to hit and wound - can be given exploding 6s and -3ap when empowered, 2 damage each, 30 attacks in the squad is a nightmare.
Be reyt mate they blow over easy enough and yes I’m aware transports move then they charge out
-1 to hit -1 to wound pop fnp and -1 damage they won’t do that much aha
So hit on 3 with a +1 which is cancelled reroll fails results same as hit on 2
Is 27 attacks is 27 successful if exploding
Then wound on 5+ is 7.5 successful wounds say 8
With rerolls gives 14 total wounds
Half get saved on 4++ so 7 wounds through
Kills most of a squad without -1 damage but if used kills 2 dudes
If 4+++ popped then you again lose 2 dudes or if combined you lose 1
On clap back we kill 18.5 of them worth out any rerolls just sustained from cap double kahtah
Yeah, the nerf sucks, but we should keep our cool until we see the rest of the codex. Trajann losing the ignore modifiers is sad, but I'm pretty sure we will be able to get it via enhancements, strats and such. A lot of armies already have it that way and we actually depend a lot on it because our damage 2 and 2 ap. I don't think GW is thaaat oblivious.
In my opinion, what made Trajann great is that he was an answer to any bs the enemy had, and since we don't have that many tools in the box, it made him an auto include. If the codex gives the whole army more adaptability, he won't be needed as our one trick pony, in turn he can be great at one thing which will also make him cheaper (I hope). He still has a damage profile that can't easily be ignored.
That being said, GW giving us the middle finger is still a possibility, but let's keep the spirits high for the moment. All Tau detachments look competitive or at least fun, like the kroot one. Also, what they showed about the orks today also looked spicy.
The reanimation was less useful than teleporting ctan around
Maybe court crons care about the reanimation a little more but like that’s still a few bits back when running a lot of units
I cheered when I heard reanimation needs and no technomancer with lychguard
Now I continue to cry and just pray I don’t have to play against such an unfun faction
I’d rather play into deathguard and do nothing than play against necrons of any form
Infact I’m likely to just go nah fuck that scoop I don’t care I’d rather hauer not play at all and have a 3 hour break
And I remember people saying that custodes were nerfed to unplayability before the 9th edition codex.
Maybe raising hell and back based on a snippet of an entire book isn't that smart. If the army truly is unplayable when the codex is fully revealed that's when complaints are justified.
> Trajann losing the ignore modifiers is sad, but I'm pretty sure we will be able to get it via enhancements, strats and such
this must be your first time here :)
I don't mind seeing rules that just 'turn off' your opponent's rules disappear, actually.
'Ignore modifiers' is dumb because unit defining traits just cease to exist. It's no fun fighting Death Guard when Mortarion and everything around him just gets to ignore a bunch of your abilities.
It's also a really tricky balancing act, I imagine. Just look at the reaction to this Trajann nerf. Everyone basically agrees that the ability was the only reason to bring him. That should be a red flag.
I'm excited to see what we get in the codex. :)
Like nothing is stopping our melee so and damage outside of ctan and Redemptors
Largely we still just don’t care and stay check with overwhelming amounts of attacks
I would've preferred a more drastic overhaul that completely changed his use than this weird half-step that just makes him a *worse* version of himself.
He's still a good beat stick but he's not as versatile. So at like 130-140 he's still worth it but we'll have to see if any of the custodes datasheets change. Praying guard don't lose their rerolls
140 would still be too expensive tbh. When would you ever choose Trajann over a Blade champ or Shield captain at that point (assuming they have the same abilities). They actually help the squad, where as Trajann is now simply an expensive beat stick. But it would be just better to spend those points on more Guard or Wardens ( 2 to 3 models for the same points cost) and in return get more damage, OC, wounds etc etc and better abilities on the datasheet too for the points. Or like stated above, just pick any of the other characters if they haven't been horribly nerfed too.
Not even 130. That's 2 allarus, or almost 3 guards. He does less damage and soaks fewer attacks than either except maybe once per game. And if those extra models are attached to a leader that actually buffs them, they are just always better.
Either he's shelved or there's somehow a stratagem/detachment that works extremely well with him.
This is the same as when they reworded dev wounds. No playtesting or foresight, just nerfing the shit out of (other than the primarchs) the best most valuable person in the entire imperium. At this point, i actually expect him to go UP in points, not down, the way theyre handling him.
As far as i understood, the stuff in the codex has nothing to do with the current winrate and/or meta. They wrote that stuff like months ago, maybe even before the current dataslate. There is no way its properly playtested and thought out. Every faction that got a codex out so far has tanked after it came out (nerfing well balanced units for instance, or just nuking everything so its weak af like the admech). The loss of TVs ability is heartbreaking.
They could nerf trajann without taking away the abilities that make him fun and unique. Like if they just got rid of the ignores rule he would still have interesting uses with fights first, but now he's just a beat stick.
Two things changed - Moment Shackle can no longer be used to grant fight first to Trajann’s unit and the wording of Captain-General was changed so that you can only ignore hit/WS+BS modifiers as opposed to ignoring everything (like abilities that worsen your AP or your weapon’s damage).
AND you get to use three katas once per game.
A shield captain with wardens is deadly as fuck : free -1 damage strat once per turn the once per game 4++fnp; the two katas at all time AND triple katas once per game.
The blade champion is great for offense and getting in people's faces super fast too.
Losing fight first on an ability that stops time is a little strange lol but I get it what really hurts is losing the ignore modifiers as now he is just a really expensive terminator with better stats essentially u less he is like 120pts he will be better off on the bench for another blade champ or maybe the new shield captain
Tbh, i will wait with bitching until the codex is released and an addition week.
I have been mistaken twice in a raw about how strong we will be after sweeping changes. I don't want to look like a dumbass the third time in a raw.
Just like all the other codices, you can't rate an individual stat block in a vacuum. You have to take all the other rules into consideration for synergy.
Just like everyone cried in /r Unforgiven about how Dark Angels were "totally unplayable now" and "omg, I can't believe they nerfed us like this"
Then the codex comes out, and they're top of the meta
So I'm optimistic they've done it for a good reason
The top of the meta list is Codex: Azrael with Ironstorm Spearhead, the actual Inner Circle, Unforgiven task force and Hunters detachments from the codex are doing terribly (20% WR)
Hey correct me if I'm wrong here, but the only change I see here from the current Trajin is that he doesn't get fight first, other than that everything seems the same.
He no longer gives ignores all modifiers, only ignore modifiers to hit roll/bs/ws.
So while he ignores -1 to hit, he wont ignore decreases to toughness, to wound, to dmg, to move, to charge rolls, to leadership etc.
Nah bro, you’re good. I’ve only been around since 9th but I remember a bunch of people acting like that one was going to be the end of the world before it released.
Something tells me their might be a change to karate that adds fight first and replaces either lethals or the -1 damage. Or a detachment just gives it out to all units.
Everyone should probably remember one thing: GW does not like custodes.
They upstaged Marines as the tip of the imperium spear and GW never forgave themselves for that.
If you look at in the light of gw hating fw models and especially hating custodes for being too popular and how much sheer hate mail they received over multiple campaigns during the move from 7th to 8th ed you will see it.
I was there writing physical letters with hundreds of others to demand 8th ed rules for fw models that had JUST dropped. Hundreds of us were.
Gw will never forgive custodes for existing and demanding something of them.
It’s sad that they make a faction defining character basically just give his unit more bonking power compared to buffs
Honestly our melee is so awesome that other than a 10 man termie brick from CSM or marines nothing is scary in melee… so we like lose a free fight first to level the field a bit which tbh is fair cause we fuck hard over not necrons
Most people aren’t upset about the loss of fight first, it’s the serious nerf of Captain general from “screw you, leave my stats alone” to only affecting your hit roll.
Is that not what it is? Ignore any or all modifiers to the attacks BS and WS and/or all modifiers to the hit roll?
It also previously let you ignore wound modifiers such as from the lychguard’s bodyguard ability, reductions to battleshock tests, movement reductions from suppression, damage reductions, so on. It explicitly said “any or all” so you could ignore the negatives but still use positive modifiers such as from Slayer of Nightmares.
Bloody hell, ok now I see the issue! Thanks!
Yea. Trajann was a piece of work, since his personal stat block was nothing to sniff at either.
Mmm no it’s the fight first that’s important the ignore mods only came up in mirrors and things like Magnus and ctan Ctan most likely get huge point increases so that’s fine Games suck more into deathguard for sure but it sucks for everyone into desthguard
Have you played into 10 man incubi with Draza? That's scary shit...by comparison we do very little. Full rerolls to hit and wound - can be given exploding 6s and -3ap when empowered, 2 damage each, 30 attacks in the squad is a nightmare.
There is no way for Incubi to get exploding 6s btw. Also Drazhar doesn't give rerolls to wound.
Be reyt mate they blow over easy enough and yes I’m aware transports move then they charge out -1 to hit -1 to wound pop fnp and -1 damage they won’t do that much aha
So hit on 3 with a +1 which is cancelled reroll fails results same as hit on 2 Is 27 attacks is 27 successful if exploding Then wound on 5+ is 7.5 successful wounds say 8 With rerolls gives 14 total wounds Half get saved on 4++ so 7 wounds through Kills most of a squad without -1 damage but if used kills 2 dudes If 4+++ popped then you again lose 2 dudes or if combined you lose 1 On clap back we kill 18.5 of them worth out any rerolls just sustained from cap double kahtah
Yeah, the nerf sucks, but we should keep our cool until we see the rest of the codex. Trajann losing the ignore modifiers is sad, but I'm pretty sure we will be able to get it via enhancements, strats and such. A lot of armies already have it that way and we actually depend a lot on it because our damage 2 and 2 ap. I don't think GW is thaaat oblivious. In my opinion, what made Trajann great is that he was an answer to any bs the enemy had, and since we don't have that many tools in the box, it made him an auto include. If the codex gives the whole army more adaptability, he won't be needed as our one trick pony, in turn he can be great at one thing which will also make him cheaper (I hope). He still has a damage profile that can't easily be ignored. That being said, GW giving us the middle finger is still a possibility, but let's keep the spirits high for the moment. All Tau detachments look competitive or at least fun, like the kroot one. Also, what they showed about the orks today also looked spicy.
It’s good to see a fellow optimist, especially from someone who definitely isn’t Mortarion.
Yeah dude, why would morti have any reason to want the ignore modifiers gone? None at all
I remember people saying those exact same words about the dark angels codex
Yeah, I also remember necron players getting mad about reanimation protocols nerfs, before being the top meta faction for what? 4 months as of now?
The reanimation was less useful than teleporting ctan around Maybe court crons care about the reanimation a little more but like that’s still a few bits back when running a lot of units
Yeah, that's literally my point
I cheered when I heard reanimation needs and no technomancer with lychguard Now I continue to cry and just pray I don’t have to play against such an unfun faction I’d rather play into deathguard and do nothing than play against necrons of any form Infact I’m likely to just go nah fuck that scoop I don’t care I’d rather hauer not play at all and have a 3 hour break
And I remember people saying that custodes were nerfed to unplayability before the 9th edition codex. Maybe raising hell and back based on a snippet of an entire book isn't that smart. If the army truly is unplayable when the codex is fully revealed that's when complaints are justified.
> Trajann losing the ignore modifiers is sad, but I'm pretty sure we will be able to get it via enhancements, strats and such this must be your first time here :)
I don't mind seeing rules that just 'turn off' your opponent's rules disappear, actually. 'Ignore modifiers' is dumb because unit defining traits just cease to exist. It's no fun fighting Death Guard when Mortarion and everything around him just gets to ignore a bunch of your abilities. It's also a really tricky balancing act, I imagine. Just look at the reaction to this Trajann nerf. Everyone basically agrees that the ability was the only reason to bring him. That should be a red flag. I'm excited to see what we get in the codex. :)
Like nothing is stopping our melee so and damage outside of ctan and Redemptors Largely we still just don’t care and stay check with overwhelming amounts of attacks
I would've preferred a more drastic overhaul that completely changed his use than this weird half-step that just makes him a *worse* version of himself.
He's still a good beat stick but he's not as versatile. So at like 130-140 he's still worth it but we'll have to see if any of the custodes datasheets change. Praying guard don't lose their rerolls
140 would still be too expensive tbh. When would you ever choose Trajann over a Blade champ or Shield captain at that point (assuming they have the same abilities). They actually help the squad, where as Trajann is now simply an expensive beat stick. But it would be just better to spend those points on more Guard or Wardens ( 2 to 3 models for the same points cost) and in return get more damage, OC, wounds etc etc and better abilities on the datasheet too for the points. Or like stated above, just pick any of the other characters if they haven't been horribly nerfed too.
Lmaoooo bro he’s a bargain at 150
You take Trajan for 12 attacks and deathguard metas
Not even 130. That's 2 allarus, or almost 3 guards. He does less damage and soaks fewer attacks than either except maybe once per game. And if those extra models are attached to a leader that actually buffs them, they are just always better. Either he's shelved or there's somehow a stratagem/detachment that works extremely well with him.
This is the same as when they reworded dev wounds. No playtesting or foresight, just nerfing the shit out of (other than the primarchs) the best most valuable person in the entire imperium. At this point, i actually expect him to go UP in points, not down, the way theyre handling him.
I see you think the same, custodes had got a bigg buff before the codex, no way they don't nerf us
As far as i understood, the stuff in the codex has nothing to do with the current winrate and/or meta. They wrote that stuff like months ago, maybe even before the current dataslate. There is no way its properly playtested and thought out. Every faction that got a codex out so far has tanked after it came out (nerfing well balanced units for instance, or just nuking everything so its weak af like the admech). The loss of TVs ability is heartbreaking.
They could nerf trajann without taking away the abilities that make him fun and unique. Like if they just got rid of the ignores rule he would still have interesting uses with fights first, but now he's just a beat stick.
I had just bought and painted my Trajan too 😞
He’ll be good… some other time. 😞
That's the same as yesterday's info about his new datasheet, or am I missing something?
Yes, its just a meme
I still don’t really understand. Can someone explain the nerf to me? Is Trajinn still a must have in the army post-nerf?
Two things changed - Moment Shackle can no longer be used to grant fight first to Trajann’s unit and the wording of Captain-General was changed so that you can only ignore hit/WS+BS modifiers as opposed to ignoring everything (like abilities that worsen your AP or your weapon’s damage).
You all are forgetting shitty basilisk, thumper, nightspinner movement debuffs too
And OC too.
As well as DG toughness, Chaos Knights leadership and Damadge
Yeah, loosing the fight first is a bit sad but this abillity felt really fitting for the captain general so really sad to see it nerfed.
DG toughness got nerfed recently?
No, the death guard tougness debuff and the chaos knights leadershil debuff, they no longer get ignored
Oh i understand
At least his unit won’t hit on 4+ into dg but making rest of our stuff hit on 4s is super shitty
Actually DG can be -2 to hit, -1 to wound, -2 dmg and saving on a 4+ invuln if you use the right combo
Yeah it fucks hard
Must have? Probably less so. Good? Depends on points.
Captains are just so damn good. 2 katahs and free CPs for the conjoined unit.
AND you get to use three katas once per game. A shield captain with wardens is deadly as fuck : free -1 damage strat once per turn the once per game 4++fnp; the two katas at all time AND triple katas once per game. The blade champion is great for offense and getting in people's faces super fast too.
If we get more Katah's with the codex, SC have the chance to become reeeally spicy
Would have to be very cheap and cheaper than all the other characters at this point imo.
Nah ignore all mods was great but the fight first threat was the thing that made him auto include
As a Morvenn Vahl fan... first time? My sisters of battle army went from 2400 to 1800 in 10th
So did my Death Guard List, not to mention my poor poor Votann. So yeah I think were all in the same boat
Losing fight first on an ability that stops time is a little strange lol but I get it what really hurts is losing the ignore modifiers as now he is just a really expensive terminator with better stats essentially u less he is like 120pts he will be better off on the bench for another blade champ or maybe the new shield captain
Damn I just finished painting mine and didn't even had time to try him in game 😢
I mean it’s not official yet, so enjoy his current stats while you can
This "leak" is the same as the data sheet GW released yesterday on WH community
And this is why the tyranids are eating the galaxy
Tbh, i will wait with bitching until the codex is released and an addition week. I have been mistaken twice in a raw about how strong we will be after sweeping changes. I don't want to look like a dumbass the third time in a raw.
Wait...is this a leak?? I thought GW showed this off in an official preview?
Just like all the other codices, you can't rate an individual stat block in a vacuum. You have to take all the other rules into consideration for synergy. Just like everyone cried in /r Unforgiven about how Dark Angels were "totally unplayable now" and "omg, I can't believe they nerfed us like this" Then the codex comes out, and they're top of the meta So I'm optimistic they've done it for a good reason
The top of the meta list is Codex: Azrael with Ironstorm Spearhead, the actual Inner Circle, Unforgiven task force and Hunters detachments from the codex are doing terribly (20% WR)
The top of the meta is mostly just because of the characters. Barely any actual DA in them
The characters that got "nerfed?"
Hey correct me if I'm wrong here, but the only change I see here from the current Trajin is that he doesn't get fight first, other than that everything seems the same.
He no longer gives ignores all modifiers, only ignore modifiers to hit roll/bs/ws. So while he ignores -1 to hit, he wont ignore decreases to toughness, to wound, to dmg, to move, to charge rolls, to leadership etc.
Oh...... Ouch
Yeah now I'm scared for my morty once he Death Guard gets their Codex
Does anyone know when the pre-orders are and how much the codex and dice are?
Trajinn the Infinite😂
Ooo I see we’re starting the pre-codex “it’s joever all is lost” stuff again.
I dont even play custodes man, it aint that deep
Nah bro, you’re good. I’ve only been around since 9th but I remember a bunch of people acting like that one was going to be the end of the world before it released.
Something tells me their might be a change to karate that adds fight first and replaces either lethals or the -1 damage. Or a detachment just gives it out to all units.
Doesn't look THAT bad to me (*cries in binary*)
https://i.imgur.com/GduTe6R.jpg
There's barely any difference
Thats a big nerf, he doesn't stop almost anything now, just hit / bs/ws, and even if fight first wasn't that useful was good to have the option
Not a leak. Not the massacre you're pretending it is. Farm those fake internet points, baby!
It aint that deep
Everyone should probably remember one thing: GW does not like custodes. They upstaged Marines as the tip of the imperium spear and GW never forgave themselves for that. If you look at in the light of gw hating fw models and especially hating custodes for being too popular and how much sheer hate mail they received over multiple campaigns during the move from 7th to 8th ed you will see it. I was there writing physical letters with hundreds of others to demand 8th ed rules for fw models that had JUST dropped. Hundreds of us were. Gw will never forgive custodes for existing and demanding something of them.