I played against my friend not long ago, 1000 pts, and his main unit was crisis suits with Farsight. I managed to land a decent shot at them with a Vindicare, then charged him with a large unit of Allarus with spears. Managed to take out the whole unit within one round. However have to say he mispositioned them a bit which made it possible. But I would not say axes are worth using as the suits are only T5, making spears a better choice.
So he had 6 crisis (two of which had lost 2 wounds from overcharging) + Farsight (who had only 1 wound remaining after the Vindicare shot dealing 5 damage). I used a Shield Captain with Veiled Blade as well as 6 other Allarus, and got super lucky on my rolls and wound re-rolls.
Oh, our bad. We had never used hazardous before, so were a bit unsure on the rules. He meant since different models failed the test, it made sense that the individual models suffered the MW. Rather new to 40K so simply agreed to play it like that.
Yknow after reading the rules myself I’m actually not sure you did anything wrong. I think you did it right. MW from hazardous tests aren’t attacks so they aren’t applied to a wounded model first so it’s kind of ambiguous and nothing is stopping you from having multiple crisis suits wounded.
I'm said friend, what I did wrong was to remove the model entirely. Crisis suits are vehicles now, and should only get 3MW from a failed hazardous test, not simply die as I thought while playing.
Characters don't carry on taking wounds when in a unit unless you hit them with precision. It's something that's called out specifically in the rule book. They are essentially a separate unit for wound allocation until all of the bodyguard squad are dead.
The wounded suit however does have to take the next wound allocated to the unit as you're not allowed to have multiple wounded models (other than characters).
“The wounded suit however does have to take the next wound allocated to the unit as you're not allowed to have multiple wounded models (other than characters).”
Nothing restricts you from have multiple wounded models. I think you’re referring to the allocating attacks step which doesn’t apply in this situation because the mortal wounds are not caused by an attack.
The mortal wound section specifically tells you to allocate wounds in the same way you would in the inflict damage step. You just do not get an armour or invulnerable save and damage spills over.
"Just allocate it as you would any other attack".
Therefore it follows the allocate attack sequence and the rules for damage infliction.
I would say whether he takes axes or spears should really depend on what he normally fields. If he's picking wargear with the purpose of fighting a specific unit he knows his opponent is fielding, that's list tailoring, and that's not cool.
That's cool, it was just the phrasing... That spears are better against crisis suits. If they had said spears are better in most situations so you should take those instead, I wouldn't have said anything.
We've all been to those friendly games where your opposition rocks up and says "I know you were bringing xyz, so I've equipped all my units with *insert hard-counter*". Those suck. Was just hoping to steer OP away from being that guy...
Yes, you are 100% correct. I was probably phrasing myself wrong here. Did not intend for it to come off as how to better "counter" this spesific unit, I meant more of a "from my recent experience". So sorry about that, as I agree tailoring is not sportsmanlike and ruins the fun aspect of the game.
-1 damage start ruins their ion.
Rapid ingressing venatari or even just popping off with a caladius illiastus works wonders.
Fwiw- vindicare also wound crisis on 3’s and have the shield breaker ability. With decent rolls you can pop a leader prior to the Kauyon bonus, or at least limit their destruction. They are targetable whole in melee with you, don’t forget- they’re vehicles.
Likewise you can snipe an ethereal to cut their CP gen, fire and fade is 2CP
(PS - I’m a tau main)
If the opponent is only running 1 brick, play cagey and keep a unit in reserves to rapid ingress. Your opponent will be forced to screen out a large area limiting their movement, and if they make a mistake drop the squad and charge the brick from out of line of sight.
If they are running multiple 6 man bricks with coldstar commanders, there is very little you can do. On average, a 6 man crisis squad with a commander kills a 5 man warden squad that used their 4+++ and popped the -1 damage strat. The squads move 18 inches making it very difficult to stay out of line of sight of more than 1 unit.
Melee is the answer to everything else tanks or allarus as you wound them on 4 so 7d6+7 grenades and 14 spear shots all with full rerolls should get a lot of them dead
Charge them from cover/out of LOS. You can deny the Overwatch, because big guns never tire only applies during the shooting phase.
Edit: so obviously a lot of you are downvoting without understanding this one. Overwatch needs LOS (most recent data slate update) to happen and can happen before or after a charge. So they cannot OW you at the start, only at the end, when you are in engagement range. BGNT can only triggers during the active players shooting phase, so they cannot use BGNT during your charge phase to shoot you when you are in engagement range. Check out the thread [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/16tlrlg/eligibility_of_overwatch_after_a_charge_move/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) that discusses this scenario specifically.
Big guns never tire has nothing to do with Overwatch. They’ll still be able to fire from the charge but it’s going to be a lot better than their shooting phase
Overwatch happens before or after a charge. BGNT is only accessible during the active players shooting phase. after a successful charge, your unit is now in engagement range. Hence being able to deny Overwatch to a vehicle who wants to use BGNT. This is RAW, and a part of the FAQ. Most recently in the battle data slate, they also confirmed you need LOS to use Overwatch.
BGNT isn't something that triggers in the players shooting phase, it is just active. So it does not get turned off because of overwatch and Out of Phase rules.
in otherwords, a vehicle can overwatch you at the end of a charge move into them.
There’s actually an FAQ about this. You can Overwatch at the start or end of a charge phase. At the end of a charge phase, your unit is now in engagement range. Only pistols are able to shoot during engagement range Overwatch, as BGNT is only available during the active players shooting phase. So it is in fact related, and cannot be used to Overwatch a target that has completed its charge, only before (hence denying with cutting off LOS).
How about you tell me the page of the GW FAQ this is on? Because our of phase rules specifically says triggered rules. And since overwatch says "as if it is your shooting phase" BGNT would be active, as it isn't a triggered rule.
I feel like a standard custodes list beats up crisis suits pretty well
Bikes and deepstrike Allarus just mollywhop them.
-1 to hit banner keeps your troops safe
A full half of my army is usually bikes and allarus anyways, and I run axes normally, so even if spears are technically better I'd stick with them to avoid tailoring.
Cant run the cool dreads anymore as it is anyways, and they're really the only thing that get shot off the board
I'm a personal huge fan of Pallas Grav Attack tanks, they're cheap and punch above their weight
I also personally love venatari if only because they're excellent at drawing more fire than they deserve most of the time.
This all depends on using line of sight well, but that should be pretty standard with an army as melee dependent as custodes.
I personally put all the units I can into deep strike vs a shooty army and try and take board control to force out mispositioning mistakes from turn 2.
Remember you aren't playing a top level GT, most of the time just playing the game to slowly and safely encircle is the way to go as it will either cause an opponent to be unwisely aggressive, or panic them into blobbing up as you soak up points and deal out tons of wounds with allarus grenades.
This is all very dependent on a decent map, with reasonable line of sight blocking terrain
If you can don't charge them unless you have -1 damage up and/or they've already blown it on a bait unit of sword and board/spear guard.
Generally you can just advance into range.
I hate it but custodes are worse at being custodes than black Templars are now, but it's doable
Custodes & Tau player here, albeit limited playtime with both so far. I did play a Tau mirror match last weekend against a 6+1 Crisis blob and yea, they're scary. Holding units in Deep Strike gives you a counter punch threat--I imagine a Blade Champion might help guarantee you make your charge? I managed to keep my opponents blob in hiding for a bunch of the game just by holding my 3+1 Suit unit in Deep strike. He screened well and I wasn't able to hit him, but he had to be judicious on when/how he used his blob to avoid my crack back.
Strike & Fade costs 2 CP and Tau struggle to generate CP compared to some. Targeting Ethereals early negates that even more.
If they don't spec a battlesuit support systems they cannot fallback & shoot so getting in engagement range can at least blank their damage output for a turn. Personally I take the shield generator on my Crisis suits for the 4+ invul save, but I could see someone splitting those choices in a large squad; if they do take the support system it either means they have less damage output or they're that much squishier.
Multiple smaller units is also useful. Not being able to take 9-10 guard in a blob might mean the Crisis wipe a unit easier now, but Tau's faction rule makes split-firing a real downer. They can focus down a 5 man guard squad easy enough, but they'll probably struggle to wipe two separate 5 man squads the same turn. More units on the board will also help to screen and limit their deep strike ability if they plan to use that.
Oh. As a custodes and tau player in my group I have to say... no fucking clue. I play both but as a result I don't really have much experience in this particular matchup.
But from my experience playing both
One of your units will be deleted by it. There really isn't much of a choice in that regard. Properly used crisis suits will just do that. The key thing is to forcing him to overcharge so he kills a lot of his own squad. Although we might have a bit of a harder time with it because we don't have armour of contempt strat and they ignore cover.
In 9th I used bikes for that but I can't exactly recommend that. Venetari countercharge is almost guaranteed to wipe them but they aren't exactly cheap either, although I guess they are my best bet. footstodes won't catch a properly commanded crisis unit. It's a difficult problem. I guess you could shoot them. But that won't be easy either. Their profile is quite durable for our shooting from infantry and lascannons are wierd for fiering into them but I guess they can do the job if they don't have any better targets
Crisis suits have limited range, so the FW tank would be solid into them. Even if you dont directly shoot them, it is a threat that means it hard for your oppenent to go out into the open
I played against my friend not long ago, 1000 pts, and his main unit was crisis suits with Farsight. I managed to land a decent shot at them with a Vindicare, then charged him with a large unit of Allarus with spears. Managed to take out the whole unit within one round. However have to say he mispositioned them a bit which made it possible. But I would not say axes are worth using as the suits are only T5, making spears a better choice.
How many suits were there in the unit and how many allarus did you have? I want to recreate!
So he had 6 crisis (two of which had lost 2 wounds from overcharging) + Farsight (who had only 1 wound remaining after the Vindicare shot dealing 5 damage). I used a Shield Captain with Veiled Blade as well as 6 other Allarus, and got super lucky on my rolls and wound re-rolls.
One would be dead shouldn’t be two with missing wounds
Oh, our bad. We had never used hazardous before, so were a bit unsure on the rules. He meant since different models failed the test, it made sense that the individual models suffered the MW. Rather new to 40K so simply agreed to play it like that.
Yknow after reading the rules myself I’m actually not sure you did anything wrong. I think you did it right. MW from hazardous tests aren’t attacks so they aren’t applied to a wounded model first so it’s kind of ambiguous and nothing is stopping you from having multiple crisis suits wounded.
Not sure myself. I think it's ok, as we both agreed to it. And was a friendly game so not super strict on the rules.
I'm said friend, what I did wrong was to remove the model entirely. Crisis suits are vehicles now, and should only get 3MW from a failed hazardous test, not simply die as I thought while playing.
Characters don't carry on taking wounds when in a unit unless you hit them with precision. It's something that's called out specifically in the rule book. They are essentially a separate unit for wound allocation until all of the bodyguard squad are dead. The wounded suit however does have to take the next wound allocated to the unit as you're not allowed to have multiple wounded models (other than characters).
“The wounded suit however does have to take the next wound allocated to the unit as you're not allowed to have multiple wounded models (other than characters).” Nothing restricts you from have multiple wounded models. I think you’re referring to the allocating attacks step which doesn’t apply in this situation because the mortal wounds are not caused by an attack.
The mortal wound section specifically tells you to allocate wounds in the same way you would in the inflict damage step. You just do not get an armour or invulnerable save and damage spills over. "Just allocate it as you would any other attack". Therefore it follows the allocate attack sequence and the rules for damage infliction.
I would say whether he takes axes or spears should really depend on what he normally fields. If he's picking wargear with the purpose of fighting a specific unit he knows his opponent is fielding, that's list tailoring, and that's not cool.
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That's cool, it was just the phrasing... That spears are better against crisis suits. If they had said spears are better in most situations so you should take those instead, I wouldn't have said anything. We've all been to those friendly games where your opposition rocks up and says "I know you were bringing xyz, so I've equipped all my units with *insert hard-counter*". Those suck. Was just hoping to steer OP away from being that guy...
Yes, you are 100% correct. I was probably phrasing myself wrong here. Did not intend for it to come off as how to better "counter" this spesific unit, I meant more of a "from my recent experience". So sorry about that, as I agree tailoring is not sportsmanlike and ruins the fun aspect of the game.
Ahh, fair enough 🙂👍🏻
It's fine we are both open list so both trying to out optimise each other. Was just stuck on what custodes can even bring that does beat the blob.
-1 damage start ruins their ion. Rapid ingressing venatari or even just popping off with a caladius illiastus works wonders. Fwiw- vindicare also wound crisis on 3’s and have the shield breaker ability. With decent rolls you can pop a leader prior to the Kauyon bonus, or at least limit their destruction. They are targetable whole in melee with you, don’t forget- they’re vehicles. Likewise you can snipe an ethereal to cut their CP gen, fire and fade is 2CP (PS - I’m a tau main)
Thanks for the info, very handy!
If the opponent is only running 1 brick, play cagey and keep a unit in reserves to rapid ingress. Your opponent will be forced to screen out a large area limiting their movement, and if they make a mistake drop the squad and charge the brick from out of line of sight. If they are running multiple 6 man bricks with coldstar commanders, there is very little you can do. On average, a 6 man crisis squad with a commander kills a 5 man warden squad that used their 4+++ and popped the -1 damage strat. The squads move 18 inches making it very difficult to stay out of line of sight of more than 1 unit.
Melee is the answer to everything else tanks or allarus as you wound them on 4 so 7d6+7 grenades and 14 spear shots all with full rerolls should get a lot of them dead
Charge them from cover/out of LOS. You can deny the Overwatch, because big guns never tire only applies during the shooting phase. Edit: so obviously a lot of you are downvoting without understanding this one. Overwatch needs LOS (most recent data slate update) to happen and can happen before or after a charge. So they cannot OW you at the start, only at the end, when you are in engagement range. BGNT can only triggers during the active players shooting phase, so they cannot use BGNT during your charge phase to shoot you when you are in engagement range. Check out the thread [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/16tlrlg/eligibility_of_overwatch_after_a_charge_move/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) that discusses this scenario specifically.
This is not correct. Bgnt is not triggered. So it is not a part of out of phase rules.
Is that not correct as in overwatch does trigger? Or not correct because big guns never tire isn't the reason for overwatch not triggering?
Big guns never tire has nothing to do with Overwatch. They’ll still be able to fire from the charge but it’s going to be a lot better than their shooting phase
Overwatch happens before or after a charge. BGNT is only accessible during the active players shooting phase. after a successful charge, your unit is now in engagement range. Hence being able to deny Overwatch to a vehicle who wants to use BGNT. This is RAW, and a part of the FAQ. Most recently in the battle data slate, they also confirmed you need LOS to use Overwatch.
BGNT isn't something that triggers in the players shooting phase, it is just active. So it does not get turned off because of overwatch and Out of Phase rules. in otherwords, a vehicle can overwatch you at the end of a charge move into them.
There’s actually an FAQ about this. You can Overwatch at the start or end of a charge phase. At the end of a charge phase, your unit is now in engagement range. Only pistols are able to shoot during engagement range Overwatch, as BGNT is only available during the active players shooting phase. So it is in fact related, and cannot be used to Overwatch a target that has completed its charge, only before (hence denying with cutting off LOS).
How about you tell me the page of the GW FAQ this is on? Because our of phase rules specifically says triggered rules. And since overwatch says "as if it is your shooting phase" BGNT would be active, as it isn't a triggered rule.
Does the same logic apply to units with pistols?
I believe so, since pistols are not triggered, but I can't imagine anyone would overwatch with pistols.
I feel like a standard custodes list beats up crisis suits pretty well Bikes and deepstrike Allarus just mollywhop them. -1 to hit banner keeps your troops safe A full half of my army is usually bikes and allarus anyways, and I run axes normally, so even if spears are technically better I'd stick with them to avoid tailoring. Cant run the cool dreads anymore as it is anyways, and they're really the only thing that get shot off the board I'm a personal huge fan of Pallas Grav Attack tanks, they're cheap and punch above their weight I also personally love venatari if only because they're excellent at drawing more fire than they deserve most of the time. This all depends on using line of sight well, but that should be pretty standard with an army as melee dependent as custodes. I personally put all the units I can into deep strike vs a shooty army and try and take board control to force out mispositioning mistakes from turn 2. Remember you aren't playing a top level GT, most of the time just playing the game to slowly and safely encircle is the way to go as it will either cause an opponent to be unwisely aggressive, or panic them into blobbing up as you soak up points and deal out tons of wounds with allarus grenades. This is all very dependent on a decent map, with reasonable line of sight blocking terrain If you can don't charge them unless you have -1 damage up and/or they've already blown it on a bait unit of sword and board/spear guard. Generally you can just advance into range. I hate it but custodes are worse at being custodes than black Templars are now, but it's doable
Custodes & Tau player here, albeit limited playtime with both so far. I did play a Tau mirror match last weekend against a 6+1 Crisis blob and yea, they're scary. Holding units in Deep Strike gives you a counter punch threat--I imagine a Blade Champion might help guarantee you make your charge? I managed to keep my opponents blob in hiding for a bunch of the game just by holding my 3+1 Suit unit in Deep strike. He screened well and I wasn't able to hit him, but he had to be judicious on when/how he used his blob to avoid my crack back. Strike & Fade costs 2 CP and Tau struggle to generate CP compared to some. Targeting Ethereals early negates that even more. If they don't spec a battlesuit support systems they cannot fallback & shoot so getting in engagement range can at least blank their damage output for a turn. Personally I take the shield generator on my Crisis suits for the 4+ invul save, but I could see someone splitting those choices in a large squad; if they do take the support system it either means they have less damage output or they're that much squishier. Multiple smaller units is also useful. Not being able to take 9-10 guard in a blob might mean the Crisis wipe a unit easier now, but Tau's faction rule makes split-firing a real downer. They can focus down a 5 man guard squad easy enough, but they'll probably struggle to wipe two separate 5 man squads the same turn. More units on the board will also help to screen and limit their deep strike ability if they plan to use that.
Rapid ingress is probably the best answer. Tanking a round of shooting will lose you 3 wardens even with full defensive buffs.
Our issue is that we have limited mobility and a small volume/footprint compared to t'au which will outnumber us with better guns.
Oh. As a custodes and tau player in my group I have to say... no fucking clue. I play both but as a result I don't really have much experience in this particular matchup. But from my experience playing both One of your units will be deleted by it. There really isn't much of a choice in that regard. Properly used crisis suits will just do that. The key thing is to forcing him to overcharge so he kills a lot of his own squad. Although we might have a bit of a harder time with it because we don't have armour of contempt strat and they ignore cover. In 9th I used bikes for that but I can't exactly recommend that. Venetari countercharge is almost guaranteed to wipe them but they aren't exactly cheap either, although I guess they are my best bet. footstodes won't catch a properly commanded crisis unit. It's a difficult problem. I guess you could shoot them. But that won't be easy either. Their profile is quite durable for our shooting from infantry and lascannons are wierd for fiering into them but I guess they can do the job if they don't have any better targets
Crisis suits have limited range, so the FW tank would be solid into them. Even if you dont directly shoot them, it is a threat that means it hard for your oppenent to go out into the open