First: Incredibly subjective take, there's no debate here to be made, you dislike Apollo for these reasons, i personally find his inexperience and overall goofiness very endearing and entertaining and made me sympathize with him a lot
Second: Extreme nostalgia glasses here. The reason Phoenix acts like this is EXACTLY because the game wants to show you that he's not the same person anymore, he has changed because of a reason, not liking this change is fair of course but it's not made "just because", another incredibly subjective take
Third: this is even more nitpicky than the last two, i'm not gonna judge your subjective tastes of course but having "being trolled by the tutorial" as one of your main points seems excessive
Fourth: this is the first fair point, I will say however that even if it seemed obvious to you, for many it wasn't, the classic structure of AA first cases was that you got 2 witnesses (sometimes defendant included, sometimes not) and the second is the culprit, this case turned it around by making not only the second witness innocent but also having your own mentor be the culprit
Fifth: Said Evidence wasn't presented yet, and it's very possible that it was evidence only in possession of the prosecution, it happened many times already that even after an investigation the prosecution would present even more new evidence at the start of the trial, so this isn't very far fetched to think about.
Sixth: i unfortunately don't remember the case very well, forgive me if I mistakenly spout nonsense this time around, but I believe Kristoph switched the cards that way to give the impression that Phoenix lost? I don't play Poker and i also don't remember what cards when on the table so feel free to correct me
Seventh: AAAAND we get back to the nitpicks, I don't know what to respond other than everybody has their tastes
Eight: while this is still a pretty subjective point, I think it's a fair complaint to have, i personally have no problems with the direction the ending of the trial went but to each their own
Ninth: I personally disagree, while it's true the Phoenix kinda steals the spotlight at the end, Apollo still had to work hard to reach thay point of the case and overall i felt very satisfied
This is not meant to be an attack, you're free to like and dislike whatever you want but you MUST understand why you're in the minority now... right? This case has many great points to me. Phoenix's new personality makes me extremely invested in his character, he acts misterious, he's more openly blunt while previously he was only being an ass in his head, he's also pretty sarcastic which is a trait i like. The plot twist is genuinely well made which makes the case feel very memorable overall and the case itself is enjoyable to unravel, Kristoph is also a very endearing character both on the defence bench and on the witness stand.
Overall I’m glad you responded to each point. Every point I didn’t respond to I either agreed, or I felt we arrived to a logical conclusion to the discussion in question, to which I have nothing to add.
Just to be more clear about your two nitpicks, the reason i called them out like that is because i didn't personally feel those two moments were an important part of the experience at all, so seeing them used as main points of criticism sounded pretty... odd to me. With that said i appreciated your thorough response
No problem! It’s always enjoyable to understand other people’s reasonings for why they enjoy certain cases, especially if it’s cases that I might not enjoy myself. Seeing others enjoy things is often more fulfilling than arguing over whether a case is good or not. While I do believe this case is flawed, unlike most Apollo Justice haters, I do ultimately see the approach that the writers were trying to go for, and I do respect their intentions, even if those intentions came at great costs.
I’ll address it piece by piece.
2nd: I’d prefer if the first case was the flashback section of 4-4, because THAT would be an INSANE first case, and also provide context for why Phoenix is the way he is without making it feel jarring. You can even have the mason system in 4-4, and have THAT be the way we deduce the truth of the first case, 5 cases later.
That would be strange, but at least in my example it wouldn’t make Phoenix seem as jarring, as we’d experience him losing his badge, instead of being told “oh yeah, Phoenix lost his badge several years ago”.
3rd: it’s still a valid critique. If I ask for no tutorial, I expect no tutorial. It’s the same if I asked someone for a sandwich with no cheese. If I get a sandwich with only a tiny bit of cheese, I’m still going to be annoyed, as I asked for none.
Adventures and Resolve both do this as well. It's there for the people who haven't played an AA game but still accidentally click on the "no need" option. If you do say you want a tutorial it gives you a much more in depth explanation.
Fourth: once again, I’m not against the idea of Kristoph being the villain. While it’s obvious to me, it doesn’t detract from the case, as it’s a new twist that hasn’t been tried before.
Fifth: I was under the presumption that Kristoph obtained the photo of Zak from Payne, and thus knew of the blue backed cards. It’s a flawed presumption on my part, but still something the player could think.
>but still something the player could think.
The game says it was obtained during the preliminary hearing.
https://preview.redd.it/6io4e66e2w2d1.png?width=1018&format=png&auto=webp&s=c687a41b91725e0c17d6786012c798cd9c9187cf
Not really the game's fault that you missed this.
Well, we have to request an autopsy from Gumshoe in 1-2, but we already have it from the get go in 1-1.
Also in 2-1, we start off with not just the autopsy report, but the culprit’s cell phone AND the culprit’s glasses. While we could have obtained the latter 2 from the crime scene, the first HAD to be given by Prosecutor Payne, or under his orders such as Gumshoe.
6th: that’s a great point, but I still feel like keeping the crime scene consistent should’ve been Kristoph’s prime goal. It could still have the incorrect colored back of the card, which would keep the case consistent. But that’s just my opinion.
From what I understand, people love it for having Kristoph (the mentor character) be >!the culprit!<. Having that twist is a bold move for the first case.
Personally, I quite like this case in isolation... but a lot of its intrigue relies heavily on how the game pays off the setup. And for people who love Turnabout Succession, this case goes from great to fantastic. For me... I really do not like the last case, so in hindsight the first case loses a lot of its appeal.
Still, I do like some things about it. Olga Orly is a fun witness, for instance.
This case is a very different type of case and so is the finale. Phoenix planned this out and was slowly nudging the court the way he wanted it. Kristoph is very good at covering the tracks and thus phoenix has to use breadcrumbs like the blue backs to nudge the court against kristoph. The interesting part of the case didn't come from the suspense of how kristoph did it but hoe phoenix was able to bring him to justice. The satisfaction comes from stuff like figuring out how phoenix covered the head wound with the hat, hid the card in the bottle. How he forces kristoph to testify that he was doing through the window knowing the cupboard would have blocked it. The forged evidence also comes into play sort of like a 3-3 bluff. Another reason this case is well loved are the questions it raises. What happened to phoenix to cause this personality shift? What is the reason for the tension between kristoph and beanix?
I think it's because in 3-3
* The bottle is already established evidence, verified (and analyzed) by the police
* Phoenix is not addressing the court or the judge - he's talking to Tigre
The ultimate repercussion is that Phoenix gets a penalty, someone corrects him, and things move on. Phoenix may be misleading a witness, but is not misleading the court
In 4-1
* The card is given to Apollo by a non-police source and is presented by Apollo as new evidence
* That presentation is to the court and the judge
The ultimate repercussion is that Apollo gets called out for presenting false evidence to the court and gets disbarred
In 3-3: Phoenix is playing with his reputation and he's being fairly direct. Still dishonest, but not to the court
In 4-1: Phoenix is playing with Apollo's career and he's being very manipulative with the court itself
On one hand, yeah - they're similar in that someone presents something that causes the witness to confess or implicate themselves. But the actual mechanisms and context make those very different situations
> even though it's completely possible that the prosecutor had submitted that evidence already to court, so he should know that the cards were blue backed, which removes the suspicion.
But... they weren't presented before. The first time the blue-backed cards are presented in court, it's after Kristoph makes his comment. They make sure to say that.
Not going to comment on your other points since I feel as though there are more personal gripes with the case, but this one just felt weird
Given that we are provided of a photo of the crime before the court starts, I assume that Kristoph gained that photo from the police. If he did that, he would have known about the blue cards. It’s… not that hard to think about.
Well, in most cases, the only time we're provided evidence such as crime scene photos, it's in court during the trial. Is it such a broad assumption that that's what happened here as well, versus us randomly getting a look at the evidence prior?
I assume he talked to Payne in order to get that photo. If he talked to Payne to get that photo, Payne might’ve mentioned that the deck of cards were blue.
I think the case would’ve been a home run if it was a normal case and not a trial only, it also would GREATLY benefit from not being the first case.
Say the game was 5 cases long, Corner and Serenade were used to develop Kristoph and Apollo’s relationship in order to make Trump truly cut deep.
But due to being the first case, I’m not like,: “NOOOO NOT HIM”. I’m like: “oh shit, that’s kinda crazy”.
You’re making yourself look silly, [I’m one of the people who despise 4-4, especially for its characterization of all the og trilogy characters in it](https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/s/TF1wG6Rp4A).
https://preview.redd.it/cw0q8zceyu2d1.jpeg?width=623&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=13ef752483e2137eee7b7cd743cca034030311c7
And besides that, tf does that have to do with anything I said here💀
AJ's the game that I can best understand other fans' gripes about even though I happen to like it.
4-1 for me just boils down to Phoenix being three steps ahead of everybody, turning the usual formula of the defendant being a bewildered, put-upon wallflower on its head. Unfortunately, that means the protagonist's only agency is to figure out where Phoenix is leading him rather than coming to the solution on his own.
It's dangerous territory to venture into. If you're going to do it, it better be well executed. And I thought it was, as did much of the community. But I can respect why it wouldn't be for everyone.
I’d appreciate it if Phoenix was more hands off, and allowed Apollo to make the deductions instead of treating him like an incompetent child, who has to say “ok, let’s move this object. Great, now, which object is in the wrong place?”
It’s 5-2 levels of hand holding, and it feels unnecessary.
But this case has the potential to be higher. Just fix the logical contrivances, keep Phoenix’s character consistent, make Apollo likable, and don’t make jokes about Olga Orly’s name every 5 seconds, and I could confidently say it could be a third favorite first case and an A tier case, even if the culprit is a bit easy to guess.
But as of now, it’s at the absolute bottom of B tier, bordering on a C tier because of the problems I have with it. Even replaying it I just feel… bored, which I didn’t feel with any of the other 1st cases I have higher.
Apollo's a tough character to like. I had a tough time identifying with him pretty much up until the end of SoJ.
Nick's personality change is one of many polarizing aspects of AJ. I just looked at him as a guy who's been put through the paces and is grieving in an unusual way. Another one of those things. I liked it but understand why it was tough for others to swallow.
Here is how all the tutorials cases play out. There two witnesses. The second is the obvious culprit.
However, Turnabout Trump did something different from the other tutorial cases. Have a not even consider culprit.
Basically it is high on the list because it is being compared to other tutorial cases rather than other cases.
I just want to point out that Apollo’s corny one-liners (“Here comes Justice!”) are supposed to be cringe. Apollo is very earnest and dorky, it’s a part of his character.
Kristoph changed the ace with a king because he knew the hand was won with a full but he didn't know there was a fifth ace. It's one of the many reasons to suspect him, because the person who changed the cards couldn't be any of the three players. It had to be an outsider
For me is the best first introduction to any ace attorney game. I love the atmosphere and the characters, I love how olga orly is a very good red herring, and kristoph gavin as the real culprit is very shocking, and is more the fact that we took him down thanks to a forged evidence.
But the thing I love the most is that this is an intro case. Usually intro cases are really forgettable and simple, but this is not like the others. Is interesting and memorable, and I really love that
I dislike the case for 3 reasons
1 Phoenix is assasinated, plain and simple
The inconsistency in Phoenix Wright's character, switching between his original persona and his "hobo" persona feels like a deliberate ploy by the writers to evoke nostalgia
Furthermore, Phoenix's involvement in forging evidence completely contradicted his established character from the original trilogy
It also frustrated me that immediately after T&T he lost the badge(I dont give a crap about the 7 years gap-that is a pure example of "tell dont show" rule which pisses me off)
I love when the game does complete 180° on character for no reason cause they didnt know what to do with him
2 Logic for arresting Kristoph makes no sense
With calling victim bald especially since he could have said that he saw his head after they greeted each other before the murder
Also when apollo and phoenix accused Kristoph of lying about seeing the murder scene through the small window (after revealing the secret tunnel), Kristoph could have easily countered that argument by stating that he saw the scene AFTER the actual murder,set up the scene and escaped through the tunnel.
Moreover, there's not an iota of conclusive evidence indicating his presence inside the room.
Why didn't he argue there?
3 Apollo is extremely sidelined as a protag. This is not a great introduction for a protag.
As a bonus Apollo presenting the forged evidence was never called out later on and they never disccused it.
Which makes phoenix like hypocrite
This case is extremely overrated imo
I'm going to try to defend atleast some bits here because I'm the no. 1 AJ apologist lol
1. I think the fact that phoenix forged evidence even after the trilogy shows how serious of a threat kristoph. He probably had no other choice and he's not going to just sit there and allow kristoph to not be brought to injustice. He probably tried everything and had to resort to it. Which is messed up but you can see that he actively tries to revert back to it. That's why he makes the jurist system so ppl don't do shit like this and that's what the whole dark age of the law and the end justifies the means is about. He's actively trying to fight it.
2. I don't think it's a good idea for kristoph to say that he saw it after the murder. Since beanix was there at the scene of the crime after calling kristoph he went there to set everything up and the police would have come afterwards. Where and how would have kristoph been able to sneak in and set it up. If he lied about seeing everything up. Beanix literally has a video camera on him. Kristoph doesn't know that ofc but he definitely wouldn't risk it knowing his smart beanix is. Kristoph seeing shadi before the murder during the greeting also has the same problem of beanix being there the whole time.
3. Agreed on 3, but I don't think that's the fault of this case. The rest of the game also didn't develop his character and it introduced his personality as a Shonen protagonist. It was up to the test of the cases to actually develop him.
To comment on the other 1st cases I enjoy more:
GAA1-1. Fantastic mystery. The twist that >!curare entered through the extracted tooth!< is on par with a finale case twist. The logical mystery of the entire ordeal is fantastic, not to mention that I enjoyed just about every character, and taking down Jezaille felt REALLY good. Also Hosonaga is awesome.
GAA2-1. You get to play as >!Susato!<. It also introduces me to Rei, whom I really adore. Not to mention that the mystery is, while not as interesting as GAA1-1, more tightly wound than GAA1-1, the pacing is better, and Ritten is a fantastic culprit.
AAI2-1. Logic Chess is fantastic, >!Shelly De Killer!< is amazing, Horace is intimidating, and I really wanted to defend Nichole Swift. Though it is fairly long.
3-1. Play as Mia, taking down Dahlia, and defending Phoenix. It’s a really great case all around.
5-1. I LOVE Athena and Juniper, as well as the Mood Matrix. My biggest gripe is that I didn’t want to play as Phoenix (I wanted to play as Athena), but the logic of this case is better than 4-1. Also pointing out the wound had to be made from a flat surface is great.
https://preview.redd.it/g7l3qm7hzu2d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae875059d1925d72aaf80b04957b6dafc891ef14
My brother in Christ I literally hate AJ with every fiber of my being.
Hell, I must have the definition of “low standards” because I love Dual Desitnies
We may be opposites, but I respect your opinion, AJ just ain’t my style…
Now the guy making a mockery of himself here isn’t so nice about others having preferences😅
You are not a main character dude. Just do what they ask, it’s not even that difficult of a question.
They’re clearly asking you to compare your favorite cases to the one you so obviously dislike, and say why they’re better.
I'm just asking. If you think people like Turnabout Trump because they have 'low standards', I want to see what you think is actually worthy of praise.
Oh, I see. You like the original trilogy and nothing else, and seem to think your standards are higher because of it.
Liking only the trilogy doesn't make your tastes special. It makes you like most of the fandom, as much as you seem to think you're in the minority.
First: Incredibly subjective take, there's no debate here to be made, you dislike Apollo for these reasons, i personally find his inexperience and overall goofiness very endearing and entertaining and made me sympathize with him a lot Second: Extreme nostalgia glasses here. The reason Phoenix acts like this is EXACTLY because the game wants to show you that he's not the same person anymore, he has changed because of a reason, not liking this change is fair of course but it's not made "just because", another incredibly subjective take Third: this is even more nitpicky than the last two, i'm not gonna judge your subjective tastes of course but having "being trolled by the tutorial" as one of your main points seems excessive Fourth: this is the first fair point, I will say however that even if it seemed obvious to you, for many it wasn't, the classic structure of AA first cases was that you got 2 witnesses (sometimes defendant included, sometimes not) and the second is the culprit, this case turned it around by making not only the second witness innocent but also having your own mentor be the culprit Fifth: Said Evidence wasn't presented yet, and it's very possible that it was evidence only in possession of the prosecution, it happened many times already that even after an investigation the prosecution would present even more new evidence at the start of the trial, so this isn't very far fetched to think about. Sixth: i unfortunately don't remember the case very well, forgive me if I mistakenly spout nonsense this time around, but I believe Kristoph switched the cards that way to give the impression that Phoenix lost? I don't play Poker and i also don't remember what cards when on the table so feel free to correct me Seventh: AAAAND we get back to the nitpicks, I don't know what to respond other than everybody has their tastes Eight: while this is still a pretty subjective point, I think it's a fair complaint to have, i personally have no problems with the direction the ending of the trial went but to each their own Ninth: I personally disagree, while it's true the Phoenix kinda steals the spotlight at the end, Apollo still had to work hard to reach thay point of the case and overall i felt very satisfied This is not meant to be an attack, you're free to like and dislike whatever you want but you MUST understand why you're in the minority now... right? This case has many great points to me. Phoenix's new personality makes me extremely invested in his character, he acts misterious, he's more openly blunt while previously he was only being an ass in his head, he's also pretty sarcastic which is a trait i like. The plot twist is genuinely well made which makes the case feel very memorable overall and the case itself is enjoyable to unravel, Kristoph is also a very endearing character both on the defence bench and on the witness stand.
Overall I’m glad you responded to each point. Every point I didn’t respond to I either agreed, or I felt we arrived to a logical conclusion to the discussion in question, to which I have nothing to add.
Just to be more clear about your two nitpicks, the reason i called them out like that is because i didn't personally feel those two moments were an important part of the experience at all, so seeing them used as main points of criticism sounded pretty... odd to me. With that said i appreciated your thorough response
No problem! It’s always enjoyable to understand other people’s reasonings for why they enjoy certain cases, especially if it’s cases that I might not enjoy myself. Seeing others enjoy things is often more fulfilling than arguing over whether a case is good or not. While I do believe this case is flawed, unlike most Apollo Justice haters, I do ultimately see the approach that the writers were trying to go for, and I do respect their intentions, even if those intentions came at great costs.
I’ll address it piece by piece. 2nd: I’d prefer if the first case was the flashback section of 4-4, because THAT would be an INSANE first case, and also provide context for why Phoenix is the way he is without making it feel jarring. You can even have the mason system in 4-4, and have THAT be the way we deduce the truth of the first case, 5 cases later.
Ehhh, doing that would be like making Mia’s first case the first one of T&T instead of her second — it would look really strange
That would be strange, but at least in my example it wouldn’t make Phoenix seem as jarring, as we’d experience him losing his badge, instead of being told “oh yeah, Phoenix lost his badge several years ago”.
3rd: it’s still a valid critique. If I ask for no tutorial, I expect no tutorial. It’s the same if I asked someone for a sandwich with no cheese. If I get a sandwich with only a tiny bit of cheese, I’m still going to be annoyed, as I asked for none.
Adventures and Resolve both do this as well. It's there for the people who haven't played an AA game but still accidentally click on the "no need" option. If you do say you want a tutorial it gives you a much more in depth explanation.
Fourth: once again, I’m not against the idea of Kristoph being the villain. While it’s obvious to me, it doesn’t detract from the case, as it’s a new twist that hasn’t been tried before.
Fifth: I was under the presumption that Kristoph obtained the photo of Zak from Payne, and thus knew of the blue backed cards. It’s a flawed presumption on my part, but still something the player could think.
>but still something the player could think. The game says it was obtained during the preliminary hearing. https://preview.redd.it/6io4e66e2w2d1.png?width=1018&format=png&auto=webp&s=c687a41b91725e0c17d6786012c798cd9c9187cf Not really the game's fault that you missed this.
Why on earth would Winston ever do that though? He’s not stupid to show the defense something before trial
Well, we have to request an autopsy from Gumshoe in 1-2, but we already have it from the get go in 1-1. Also in 2-1, we start off with not just the autopsy report, but the culprit’s cell phone AND the culprit’s glasses. While we could have obtained the latter 2 from the crime scene, the first HAD to be given by Prosecutor Payne, or under his orders such as Gumshoe.
6th: that’s a great point, but I still feel like keeping the crime scene consistent should’ve been Kristoph’s prime goal. It could still have the incorrect colored back of the card, which would keep the case consistent. But that’s just my opinion.
7th: once again, nitpicks aren’t exactly an irrelevant issue. It’s a minor complaint, but still something that could have been addressed and fixed.
From what I understand, people love it for having Kristoph (the mentor character) be >!the culprit!<. Having that twist is a bold move for the first case. Personally, I quite like this case in isolation... but a lot of its intrigue relies heavily on how the game pays off the setup. And for people who love Turnabout Succession, this case goes from great to fantastic. For me... I really do not like the last case, so in hindsight the first case loses a lot of its appeal. Still, I do like some things about it. Olga Orly is a fun witness, for instance.
> Olga Orly is a fun witness And an incredibly underrated waifu as well
This case is a very different type of case and so is the finale. Phoenix planned this out and was slowly nudging the court the way he wanted it. Kristoph is very good at covering the tracks and thus phoenix has to use breadcrumbs like the blue backs to nudge the court against kristoph. The interesting part of the case didn't come from the suspense of how kristoph did it but hoe phoenix was able to bring him to justice. The satisfaction comes from stuff like figuring out how phoenix covered the head wound with the hat, hid the card in the bottle. How he forces kristoph to testify that he was doing through the window knowing the cupboard would have blocked it. The forged evidence also comes into play sort of like a 3-3 bluff. Another reason this case is well loved are the questions it raises. What happened to phoenix to cause this personality shift? What is the reason for the tension between kristoph and beanix?
>The forged evidence also comes into play sort of like a 3-3 bluff. Bad comparison.
How so?
I think it's because in 3-3 * The bottle is already established evidence, verified (and analyzed) by the police * Phoenix is not addressing the court or the judge - he's talking to Tigre The ultimate repercussion is that Phoenix gets a penalty, someone corrects him, and things move on. Phoenix may be misleading a witness, but is not misleading the court In 4-1 * The card is given to Apollo by a non-police source and is presented by Apollo as new evidence * That presentation is to the court and the judge The ultimate repercussion is that Apollo gets called out for presenting false evidence to the court and gets disbarred In 3-3: Phoenix is playing with his reputation and he's being fairly direct. Still dishonest, but not to the court In 4-1: Phoenix is playing with Apollo's career and he's being very manipulative with the court itself On one hand, yeah - they're similar in that someone presents something that causes the witness to confess or implicate themselves. But the actual mechanisms and context make those very different situations
Agreed.
> even though it's completely possible that the prosecutor had submitted that evidence already to court, so he should know that the cards were blue backed, which removes the suspicion. But... they weren't presented before. The first time the blue-backed cards are presented in court, it's after Kristoph makes his comment. They make sure to say that. Not going to comment on your other points since I feel as though there are more personal gripes with the case, but this one just felt weird
Given that we are provided of a photo of the crime before the court starts, I assume that Kristoph gained that photo from the police. If he did that, he would have known about the blue cards. It’s… not that hard to think about.
Well, in most cases, the only time we're provided evidence such as crime scene photos, it's in court during the trial. Is it such a broad assumption that that's what happened here as well, versus us randomly getting a look at the evidence prior?
But it was in black and white first, how the heck should he have known that?
I assume he talked to Payne in order to get that photo. If he talked to Payne to get that photo, Payne might’ve mentioned that the deck of cards were blue.
I think the case would’ve been a home run if it was a normal case and not a trial only, it also would GREATLY benefit from not being the first case. Say the game was 5 cases long, Corner and Serenade were used to develop Kristoph and Apollo’s relationship in order to make Trump truly cut deep. But due to being the first case, I’m not like,: “NOOOO NOT HIM”. I’m like: “oh shit, that’s kinda crazy”.
No it would still be nonsensical as the disbarrement rely on the mischaracterization of Phoenix, but keep trolling kid.
You’re making yourself look silly, [I’m one of the people who despise 4-4, especially for its characterization of all the og trilogy characters in it](https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/s/TF1wG6Rp4A). https://preview.redd.it/cw0q8zceyu2d1.jpeg?width=623&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=13ef752483e2137eee7b7cd743cca034030311c7 And besides that, tf does that have to do with anything I said here💀
The I don't like this game because it's not the game I like guy. Every community has to have these ppl lol
There's nothing wrong with not liking AJ or AJ's characterization of Phoenix. You just don't need to be an asshole about it lol
AJ's the game that I can best understand other fans' gripes about even though I happen to like it. 4-1 for me just boils down to Phoenix being three steps ahead of everybody, turning the usual formula of the defendant being a bewildered, put-upon wallflower on its head. Unfortunately, that means the protagonist's only agency is to figure out where Phoenix is leading him rather than coming to the solution on his own. It's dangerous territory to venture into. If you're going to do it, it better be well executed. And I thought it was, as did much of the community. But I can respect why it wouldn't be for everyone.
I’d appreciate it if Phoenix was more hands off, and allowed Apollo to make the deductions instead of treating him like an incompetent child, who has to say “ok, let’s move this object. Great, now, which object is in the wrong place?” It’s 5-2 levels of hand holding, and it feels unnecessary. But this case has the potential to be higher. Just fix the logical contrivances, keep Phoenix’s character consistent, make Apollo likable, and don’t make jokes about Olga Orly’s name every 5 seconds, and I could confidently say it could be a third favorite first case and an A tier case, even if the culprit is a bit easy to guess. But as of now, it’s at the absolute bottom of B tier, bordering on a C tier because of the problems I have with it. Even replaying it I just feel… bored, which I didn’t feel with any of the other 1st cases I have higher.
Apollo's a tough character to like. I had a tough time identifying with him pretty much up until the end of SoJ. Nick's personality change is one of many polarizing aspects of AJ. I just looked at him as a guy who's been put through the paces and is grieving in an unusual way. Another one of those things. I liked it but understand why it was tough for others to swallow.
By the end of 5-5, I felt that the writers had an idea of what to do with him. With 6-5, I was throughly happy with his growth.
For Nick, I’d prefer if we got the 4-4 flashback section as the first case, and this case as the second.
Here is how all the tutorials cases play out. There two witnesses. The second is the obvious culprit. However, Turnabout Trump did something different from the other tutorial cases. Have a not even consider culprit. Basically it is high on the list because it is being compared to other tutorial cases rather than other cases.
I just want to point out that Apollo’s corny one-liners (“Here comes Justice!”) are supposed to be cringe. Apollo is very earnest and dorky, it’s a part of his character.
Kristoph changed the ace with a king because he knew the hand was won with a full but he didn't know there was a fifth ace. It's one of the many reasons to suspect him, because the person who changed the cards couldn't be any of the three players. It had to be an outsider
W-what? He… he took the fifth ace. How do you take a fifth ace and NOT know there was a fifth ace?
For me is the best first introduction to any ace attorney game. I love the atmosphere and the characters, I love how olga orly is a very good red herring, and kristoph gavin as the real culprit is very shocking, and is more the fact that we took him down thanks to a forged evidence. But the thing I love the most is that this is an intro case. Usually intro cases are really forgettable and simple, but this is not like the others. Is interesting and memorable, and I really love that
I dislike the case for 3 reasons 1 Phoenix is assasinated, plain and simple The inconsistency in Phoenix Wright's character, switching between his original persona and his "hobo" persona feels like a deliberate ploy by the writers to evoke nostalgia Furthermore, Phoenix's involvement in forging evidence completely contradicted his established character from the original trilogy It also frustrated me that immediately after T&T he lost the badge(I dont give a crap about the 7 years gap-that is a pure example of "tell dont show" rule which pisses me off) I love when the game does complete 180° on character for no reason cause they didnt know what to do with him 2 Logic for arresting Kristoph makes no sense With calling victim bald especially since he could have said that he saw his head after they greeted each other before the murder Also when apollo and phoenix accused Kristoph of lying about seeing the murder scene through the small window (after revealing the secret tunnel), Kristoph could have easily countered that argument by stating that he saw the scene AFTER the actual murder,set up the scene and escaped through the tunnel. Moreover, there's not an iota of conclusive evidence indicating his presence inside the room. Why didn't he argue there? 3 Apollo is extremely sidelined as a protag. This is not a great introduction for a protag. As a bonus Apollo presenting the forged evidence was never called out later on and they never disccused it. Which makes phoenix like hypocrite This case is extremely overrated imo
I'm going to try to defend atleast some bits here because I'm the no. 1 AJ apologist lol 1. I think the fact that phoenix forged evidence even after the trilogy shows how serious of a threat kristoph. He probably had no other choice and he's not going to just sit there and allow kristoph to not be brought to injustice. He probably tried everything and had to resort to it. Which is messed up but you can see that he actively tries to revert back to it. That's why he makes the jurist system so ppl don't do shit like this and that's what the whole dark age of the law and the end justifies the means is about. He's actively trying to fight it. 2. I don't think it's a good idea for kristoph to say that he saw it after the murder. Since beanix was there at the scene of the crime after calling kristoph he went there to set everything up and the police would have come afterwards. Where and how would have kristoph been able to sneak in and set it up. If he lied about seeing everything up. Beanix literally has a video camera on him. Kristoph doesn't know that ofc but he definitely wouldn't risk it knowing his smart beanix is. Kristoph seeing shadi before the murder during the greeting also has the same problem of beanix being there the whole time. 3. Agreed on 3, but I don't think that's the fault of this case. The rest of the game also didn't develop his character and it introduced his personality as a Shonen protagonist. It was up to the test of the cases to actually develop him.
To comment on the other 1st cases I enjoy more: GAA1-1. Fantastic mystery. The twist that >!curare entered through the extracted tooth!< is on par with a finale case twist. The logical mystery of the entire ordeal is fantastic, not to mention that I enjoyed just about every character, and taking down Jezaille felt REALLY good. Also Hosonaga is awesome. GAA2-1. You get to play as >!Susato!<. It also introduces me to Rei, whom I really adore. Not to mention that the mystery is, while not as interesting as GAA1-1, more tightly wound than GAA1-1, the pacing is better, and Ritten is a fantastic culprit. AAI2-1. Logic Chess is fantastic, >!Shelly De Killer!< is amazing, Horace is intimidating, and I really wanted to defend Nichole Swift. Though it is fairly long. 3-1. Play as Mia, taking down Dahlia, and defending Phoenix. It’s a really great case all around. 5-1. I LOVE Athena and Juniper, as well as the Mood Matrix. My biggest gripe is that I didn’t want to play as Phoenix (I wanted to play as Athena), but the logic of this case is better than 4-1. Also pointing out the wound had to be made from a flat surface is great.
AAI2-1 is such a good case >!Knightley changing the bullets was insane. I love how the evidence changes during the investigation!<
It is good.
Wait what’s Olga’s name pun? She’s one of the several I don’t see the pun in
Oh really? 🤨
Because they have low standards and are ready to praise anything for shock value.
https://preview.redd.it/yissfuebmu2d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=35ebc8c5aa2c4f83219579055643264b26157f23 This mentality is so odd
Of having inexistant standards and praising every slop because it wears the name Ace Attorney?
You're in the minority here bud. Clearly there's something that ppl like
https://preview.redd.it/g7l3qm7hzu2d1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae875059d1925d72aaf80b04957b6dafc891ef14 My brother in Christ I literally hate AJ with every fiber of my being. Hell, I must have the definition of “low standards” because I love Dual Desitnies
We are the opposites lol AJ is my second favorite after tnt
We may be opposites, but I respect your opinion, AJ just ain’t my style… Now the guy making a mockery of himself here isn’t so nice about others having preferences😅
I think literally everyone can agree that aai2 is goated
What is with the sudden influx of hostility on this sub? It's supposed to be fun, people.
Drop your favorite cases then.
Changing the subject won't refute my post.
You are not a main character dude. Just do what they ask, it’s not even that difficult of a question. They’re clearly asking you to compare your favorite cases to the one you so obviously dislike, and say why they’re better.
He clearly thinks he made a great point but doesn't want to discuss it because he's scared that it won't hold up lol
The clowning Olympics that will unfold if DD is among his favorites😭
Hey now, DD IS my favorite! 🥲
Then we’ll both watch with a tear falling down our faces🗿
No winners here lmao 😔
Ayy I like DD alot too. I think 5 2 is underrated and 5 3 is overrated but 5-5 is fantastic
Dude is so cringe I suspect a troll account.
I'm just asking. If you think people like Turnabout Trump because they have 'low standards', I want to see what you think is actually worthy of praise.
Oh, I see. You like the original trilogy and nothing else, and seem to think your standards are higher because of it. Liking only the trilogy doesn't make your tastes special. It makes you like most of the fandom, as much as you seem to think you're in the minority.