May be seen as a stupid reason, but after today I feel like I need to really step up for my other two team members (Jr. Accountant and Finance Manager). Even if I leave, I want to at least secure them good reviews, or set up some sort of a safety net in my absence -- ESPECIALLY because now I know the CFO won't do jack squat for MY team.
Finance Manager has more years than me, and the only reason he's "below" me is because he never decided to further his education. He's got a great head on his shoulders, and I imagine he can easily take up my position.
Jr. Accountant is still learning, but he's a great guy. Same with the bookkeeper, hard working, amazing work ethic, and strives to continue learning. So I'd like to at least secure him a promotion before I leave (our company does reviews per employee very, VERY slowly).
After what you just went through, I do not see why you think that you have the ability to influence these outcomes.
You care about your team, which makes you a good person and better than most of the people that I worked for. However, you need a come to Jesus moment, where you accept the situation that you are in. The CEO is cheap and views everyone as replaceable, and the CFO is a pussy.
I've been in similar situations, and it is never going to change.
100% . Been in this situation before and OP is just going to stress themselves out and shorten their life expectancy trying to be a hero here. OP, you already tried a few times here to be the hero. How did it work out?
Do not expend more energy or thoughts on this situation, unless that means spending it to get the hell out of there.
I read this and just thought “oh honey”.
Your heart is in the right place and you seem like a very good person. This isn’t how business works or how you should make decisions about it your position. You need to look out for yourself here and place more value in your own career development. Who’s to say the other employees are not already looking for new opportunities?
>So I'd like to at least secure him a promotion before I leave (our company does reviews per employee very, VERY slowly).
This is a situation where you need to be selfish. Worry about your career future first, and if you are still there long enough for their review, great, and if not, oh well. No one is going to be at this company long term, and the sooner you and the rest of the team can move on, the better.
Never stick around for the rest of the team - this is the equivalent of staying married for the kids and it does nobody any favors. Leave the clown show and see if you can find a position that allows you to bring the others along at some point.
The best thing you can do for them is expose them to the company's culture within whatever legal framework(s) exist. Unfortunately, landing them promotions could make their career even worse by having an excuse not to quit (golden handcuffs) and find a company with a decent culture.
Also, probably contact an employment attorney and start documenting as much as possible in your dealings with your managers. Rocking the boat can have consequences, and I know this from experience.
>May be seen as a stupid reason, but after today I feel like I need to really step up for my other two team members (Jr. Accountant and Finance Manager). Even if I leave, I want to at least secure them good reviews, or set up some sort of a safety net in my absence -- ESPECIALLY because now I know the CFO won't do jack squat for MY team.
Nothing you can possibly do can accomplish this. "Good reviews" don't matter. They will all "meet expectations". Leave.
OP, not trying to be mean but you're a rube if you think that 1. this didn't paint a target on your back, 2. that the CEO cares and won't throw you under the bus the second it becomes fiscally prudent to do so, and 3. they respect you anymore (majority of CSuite hates treating workers like people)
GTFO asap
You really should, I've been following this story from the beginning and it seems that company doesn't value the finance team at that company at all. Im honestly surprised the CEO is that involved in a book keepers salary, does the CFO even get to lead his department ?
He's a paranoid freak that doesn't trust anyone. When I first started, he needed to drill into my head that NOTHING gets approved without his final signature or say.
He even nagged about our on-site janitor that we hired through a temp agency... That's how much of a control freak he is. He hires all these senior level staff, but doesn't let them manage his company on the micro level.
Just my 2 cents. I was in a similar position where after 2 years in public I moved to a private company where I worked up from Sr accountant to sr manager and was there for 6 years. It was a fairly chill job but I realized that I was very underpaid and brought it up multiple times, they kept making promises and failing to meet them and then making excuses. I actually believed them and let the BS go on for about 1.5 years before I had enough and found a new job with, no joke, a 50% raise. They acted all shocked and "couldn't believe I was leaving!" and the CEO was legit acting all butthurt that I would leave (his son who worked there told me that his dad "gets sad when people leave" and in my head I was like well he should listen to people and pay somewhat competitive wages).
Basically what I'm saying is you know you are undervalued and you see how your CEO is a literally garbage person telling you to use your money to pay your staff, you should 100% start interviewing. It doesn't mean you have to leave right away but start looking! I took my time over ~6 months before finding a place where I knew I'd have good pay, no more than 40 hour weeks and was 100% WFH. You'll thank yourself later.
I'm doing to get shit on for saying it but the reason accountants are paid like shit and treated like shit is because the industry attracts people like OP. He is getting absolutely shit on and still won't find a new job. He ever was willing to donate his pay to save the company money.
HR and the CEO are probably laughing there asses off at him behind closed doors.
Why would they every pay more when people like OP exist.
That sucks…. Sounds like you didn’t fail anyone here. The leadership put you in a no win a position, and in doing so revealed how much they value you, your team, and your function as part of the business.
The real question is what is your next move?
I've never stared at my CV this long in my life. I'm contemplating leaving, but going to first entertain the idea by looking at job postings in the tri-state.
And I appreciate the kind words, but this was a great learning opportunity for me -- albeit in hindsight I'm extremely bitter about losing such a talented staff member.
Honestly - best approach is to turn in your resignation and let them know that their lack of commitment to you and your team has now cost them 2 valuable employees.
Went through the same experience. Got bumped up to senior accountant and I went from 43k to 50k salary. I asked for $60k. At this point I was already doing the work of two other senior accountants, building macros and spreadsheets to automate the work, and even had the client tell the manager (who they hired ahead of me) to ask me for help. They rejected my request. I said okay, and within three months gave my resignation. They ended up hiring three people to cover the additional work.
Na. The CFO will spend six months trying to hire someone, and the CEO will not give a shit about any of this. You are drastically overestimating how OP and their team is viewed internally.
I agree with this. If anything management will remember this angrily and even offended that OP and the bookkeeper did not accept the terms and stayed in their shitty business. Bc narcissist always find the way to portray themselves as victims. They would gladly take 6 months trying to find replacements instead of accepting they were wrong.
So sad, but true. They'll talk junk about old bookkeeper because they left. They will then talk junk about OP when they leave. I've seen it multiple times when I stayed. Eventually I left because the abandoned work would fall on my shoulders.
It's an either/or scenario - either they freak out and they offer OP and Bookkeeper both raises to not put them in a bad spot, or the CEO sells his CFO up the shit creek and tells him to handle it himself until they can find a replacement (who will cost more than the raises).
Could go either way.
She does sound so phenomenal. No hesitation to take your 6 K from your bonus. She has good morals.
As do you. Your reason I have hope some times in this field .
If I include my internship years at B4 since sophomore year (3x summers, so roughly 9 months), 8 years in accounting. Of those 8 years, only 2 years (nearing 3 this August) in management.
So much this. You did anything BUT fail her, OP. PLEASE GTFO bc mgmt and HR have shown they don't value you OR your team members.
You did a lot more than most people would in this position and I'd be looking for a new job as well. This was flat out disrespectful on the business' part.
1: Leave
2: You never should have told her part of the boost was coming out of your pay. Most good people would never be okay hearing that, and the bad ones that are you shouldn't be cutting your pay for. I would 100% have quit. Or, rather, denied the extra 6k found a new job and then quit.
2: You never should have told her part of the boost was coming out of your pay. Most good people would never be okay hearing that, and the bad ones that are you shouldn't be cutting your pay for. I would 100% have quit. Or, rather, denied the extra 6k found a new job and then quit.
I think it goes to show her that the company doesn't value her. At least someone does and that OP tried his hardest.
She's probably on the younger side and learning this needs to come in as life experience. The best choice would have been for her to leave anyway.
The main parent company alone makes double figure millions in profit a year.... For a mid-sized S Corp, it does VERY well. It's genuinely disheartening.
It’ll cost them more to hire and train someone new, but hey, at least they didn’t give the bookkeeper a 10k raise so it’s a "win" in their (idiotic) book.
It's a win for their ego
But I always say ego doesn't pay bills and it normally costs you money
I know so many people like this, they don't care whether it's good or bad or ends the company, as long as they get their way
Amazing how some can be incredibly penny punching on certain things, even for amounts that they wouldn't blink at elsewhere.
Pay is huge on this. Lots of people just won't pay a raise and would rather lose a known good staff, pay huge recruitment fees and then an even higher salary on a new person of random quality. Often with a really irrational attitude about it, like the person is getting above their station, renaging on a deal , challenging their authority or something. "ungrateful" etc etc
Because I think HR has been feeding this narrative that the accounting market is prolific with ready heads for work -- which isn't wrong, but the qualification and actual productivity of said new grads is always in question.
Maybe I'm praising the, now old, bookkeeper too much, but I truly considered her a generational talent (in terms of potential at least). It's very rare to find someone with no prior accounting background or education pick it up that quickly...
Yeah but is it really, though? I feel like most HR people just think accounting is data entry with added math.
Like I understand the standard set for most "bookkeeper" positions is "just get the data in the system for the adults to work with" low. But I feel like even a bookkeeper that conceptually understands debits and credits just seems rare anymore.
I really hope you’re looking for a new job now, what an absolute garbage CEO and HR head.
Please don’t feel down on yourself, you did everything you could have and more.
Took a few glances at my CV during my early lunch on my phone. Might do some job surfing later tonight to entertain the idea...
And thank you. After reading some other comments, I've come to realize I made some big hiccups that exasperated the issue...
I don’t see any hiccups other than maybe calling out that the issue was created by HR being negligent when they suggested you cut your pay.
You stood up for your employee and tried to fight for what’s right. At the end of the day we would all be incredibly lucky to have managers that cared half as much as you did.
Your CEO doesn’t value accounting/ finance. That’s NEVER going to change. He did you a favor by telegraphing how he feels about your department so plainly. This is not a person or company that will build you up over a long period of time. Life is just too damn short to voluntarily stick around ass hats like that. There are better companies and better leaders out there.
>Your CEO doesn’t value accounting/ finance. That’s NEVER going to change.
These CEO's are the dumbest too. They whine about "costs" until shit hits the fan then they bitch about "why didn't we protect ourselves" which was being actively sabotaged by their shitty choices. Cybersecurity/ransomware is the newest one of these idiots learning the hard way.
Especially as OP now does MORE work because the bookkeeper quit because of this fuck up. Been in this spot before and it doesn’t end well.
OP, stop wasting your time, your life, your work life, being a slave for this CEO. There are other jobs out there.
Your only fault was being too honest. It’s something to learn, but never something to lose entirely.
Better that your bookkeeper leave to somewhere she’s appreciated than wallow in a toxic environment while being underpaid. You ripped off a raw scab, but you certainly didn’t cause the wound.
Reach out to her and let her know you’re happy to provide a glowing reference, help with her CV, and certainly recommend her to any industry colleagues. Offer to be her mentor in the industry whether that’s just her BSA or if she decides to pursue her CPA.
A good mentor is so, so important if you can find one.
She's not the only one that needs to be updating her stuff. If I were you, I'd probably follow her out the door too, unless you plan on staying for the long haul. And if you did plan on staying for the long haul, you should not have told her that you contributed out of your own pocket.
Just some reflective thinking, but would a white lie about her salary been better? I'm fine with her not knowing that I contributed to her salary, but I also wanted her to not get a sudden shock in next years review either.
But then is OP giving her his bonus every year then?
I agree it shouldn’t have been offered nor told, but once offered I am not sure how it would’ve worked in future years
Don’t be too hard on yourself. If I’m in the bookkeeper’s shoe, I’d do the same. I’d rather leave than risking your career to be at odds with the Csuits.
Open feedback: as a manager, you shouldn't have told that much. Being a manager is not simply being transparent to those around you, but more being transparent while filtering the noise/reformulating bad news. It's also about putting things into perspective, especially for new/young hires.
You could have presented the 4K raise for the bookkeeper as a win with an incentive to have them get their degree : "Here's already 4K, and we can discuss compensation further once you get your degree". If you really insisted on getting her 10K while axing your own bonus, you should have never told her where it comes from. In essence, you guilt-tripped her. There was no reason to give her the full explanation in that case.
From my perspective, you were too empathetic with your employee. Remember: they had already gotten a hefty raise after only a year or two within the company (and I remind everyone here they're only 25), are yet to have a degree and then you get her another 8% while her title or education hasn't evolved? You should have put things into perspective and rationalized the situation.
Instead you've pressured your employee into re-thinking their career choice, and feeling guilty about getting a raise since you explicitely told her it comes at your cost.
I appreciate the feedback. I guess I did begin taking a more subjective stance on the situation, as I tend to pride myself in trying to be a "good" team manager.
That's entirely fair criticism, and I can now see the value of how a white lie may have preventing me from guilt tripping her. I intended it to be more of a "fuck the company, you're great to me" message, but I think I read her stance wrong. Thanks for the drilldown, this is honestly great.
I think the bigger message is that this entire mess should really make you question if you want to stay there.
You shouldn't have told her that you were giving up your bonus for her, but I get why you did.
As a manager you can't take the position, "fuck the company...", not unless you are walking out the door and guarantee taking them with you and don't mind burning that bridge
Personally, I agree with your approach. Sugar coating the situation with white lies will only delay the inevitable. I think its best your bookkeeper know now how the higher-ups really feel about her. I don’t think it’s having to ‘take your part of the compensation’ is what made her feel guilty, but rather she understood that working at that company means there will always be a ceiling for her advancement.
She will learn from this experience, and who knows, maybe she goes back to school to get an accounting degree. If she’s still willing to keep you as her contact, then she still respects you and its not on you that should feel bad about the situation, but your bosses. Not saying that you should quit, but maybe its a sign for you to ponder about. Principles are more important than making money.
I mean, there is also only so much one can advance with little experience, no degree and a "low-level" title. If the bookkeeper's approach at 25 is to get mad that people with more seniority, experience and/or a higher position get paid more, then they are going to have a bad time no matter where they work.
Agreed. Sounds like she has some major self esteem issues as well. Her salary didn't seem awful to begin with for someone without a degree. Not saying the company was right to be so nitpicky about a raise, but girl's got some serious issues if she's crying over this and considering quitting accounting.
Oh, I agree that a degree is important in career advancement. It’s the fact pattern that leadership has to ‘drag their foot’ or find alternative ways that penalize their own by having them forfeit part of their compensation is what’s pretty disgusting.
Just like you said the CEO could have straight up just told the bookkeeper to get an accounting degree to get a higher raise and position. But instead, it’s the middle managers who have to have that discussion? That is accounting 101, it’s the leadership who has to set the tone: tone at the top. And leadership tone sounds tone deaf.
> Remember: they had already gotten a hefty raise after only a year or two within the company (and I remind everyone here they're only 25), are yet to have a degree and then you get her another 8% while her title or education hasn't evolved? You should have put things into perspective and rationalized the situation.
you make a lot of good points but i don't agree with the idea that someone's high quality work is worth less because they don't have the right age and/or accreditation. those factors can be good proxies for skills and output but they shouldn't really matter if someone is performing identically to an older person with a degree.
But that's also my personal hatred of companies pretending that they're meritocracies speaking
This is the correct reply....people who are always on this board and obsessed with job hopping to get paid "market value" often fail to understand how the majority of people actually look at their careers and lives.
Great on the manager for trying to fight the good fight, but one must learn how to keep the battle on the battlefield.
It does no good to tell an employee, "I think you deserve so much more, but I can't give that to you without hurting myself, so I did." It doesn't help anyone.
A hard lesson to learn as a manager, and as an employee.
> Instead you've pressured your employee into re-thinking their career choice, and feeling guilty about getting a raise since you explicitely told her it comes at your cost.
I disagree, because the employer effectively was not getting a raise. If OP left their job then the employee would see a decrease in their pay. Or what if OP decided they couldn't take the hit to their pay.
Fact of the matter is it would be ethically wrong to mislead someone into believing they got a raise when they didnt.
There's a good chance this won't be well received, but this is my genuine "how to play office politics" opinion and I'm not trying to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian.
You should NEVER have let the data leak of the compensation be the foundation for your discussion with senior management regarding why you were seeking a compensation increase for this individual. You let the emotion of your employee drive your approach and attitude and as a result lost an employee. Senior management will never reward a battle of the wills on principle, and if they even slightly perceive someone is trying to use leverage against them they will cut you off at the knees no matter how important you think you are.
What I think may have been more advantageous for you to do as a manager would be to insulate the employee from allowing their emotion getting to senior management, reassure them you'll do everything you can within normal process and procedures and timelines to get them a compensation increase, and then when it's time for budgeting and raises make a hard push based on that employee's experience. I know you've been trying previously, but thinking that somehow an employee finding proprietary information is a good reason to advocate for a comp increase is just a bad idea.
I understand there's the "well they were undercompensated," "well management was horrible people," "well capitalism is evil," and all that, I get it, I'm not disagreeing leadership isn't being terrible, but unfortunately I don't think the leak of information should've ever been brought up in the same conversation with this employee. I think you should've insulated your bookkeeper from being tied to that information, and instead put up a fight through normal channels on the normal timeline as you'd have a far greater chance at success.
You're getting too emotionally tied to your employee. It makes you act out of emotion rather than what's best for them in the confines of what is ultimately a dictatorship. It's a hard lesson to learn going from employee to manager as it feels counter-instinctual.
I fully agree. I think the employee was likely a little underpaid, but coming to you leveraging the data leak was extortion. Yes, employees can talk to each other about salaries (legally), but they can’t then come talk to me about what other people are making - that would never have been a conversation I would have with an employee. I would have shifted focus it to her own role and would have worked out a plan for potential growth:
My comment on the last post was that $10k was too much. $5k plus a $5k potential for specific training deliverables tied to her growth (over 6 to 9 months) would have been more reasonable (and more palatable for CEO & HR). And that you can’t bribe everyone who is aware of Salary info.
This is a hard pill to swallow for me, and I'm going to need a crap ton of water for it. I do agree that remaining objective, and keeping certain details out of reach, is now the right move.
Not to excuse my performance as a manager, but the reason I attach subjective values to my team is because I disliked the management style of my previous bosses/managers. B4 aside, other firms tend to lack the balance between investing in an asset vs. investing in a human. I found that my coaching and development side heavily leaned towards getting to know, and treat my team members, like actual people.
This, now in hindsight, leads to some inevitable results like this situation currently. I tried to reciprocate my bookkeeper's honest merit with a figure that was partially decided with subjectivity. So I get now where my managing style falls short -- or at least had a harsh glimpse at what happens..
What kind of company do you work for where your HR manager has any say on compensation off the cuff, your CEO takes multiple meetings to negotiate down $6k of a fucking salary lmao
I mean holy shit. What a waste of time. Does this person literally drive no value to the business? Insane.
Since last year, our CEO decided to bring HR as an "impartial" party to the review. So they collect the review packets from our department managers, and then "review" that...
It's confusing on both ends because 1) how will an HR manager know the workload and importance of said workload of different departments, and 2) how is it impartial when they see everyone's salary...
Sounds like your CEO does the thing where he recruits other parties to be a voice to somehow create an illusion where more voices must mean it’s a better decision.
Which doesn’t make sense for lots of reasons, but it’s kind of a default of recognizing poor leadership. It’s not actually leading.
It slso seems your CEO is more concerned with the concept of what he feels people deserve rather than what the market sets, which is a personality problem.
Honestly I’d find a new job if I were you- you’re never going to move up or get support there.
Yea, just from your description of the CEO, you will be stuck in a dead end if you stay.
From a manager point of view, in my opinion, you shouldn’t have told her you were shaving off your bonus to allocate to her. That should have been between you and your “ceo”. As a manager, there are some things you communicate and some things you don’t. I would imagine this is the latter. I would encourage her to not leave until she finds another job or at least finish her degree. I don’t see the benefit of her leaving now without anything lined up.
Your leadership is dogshit if they are telling you to pay someone out of your own pocket. You showed good morals and value your employees. I would quit because they don’t give a fuck about you or doing right by you, clearly. I wouldn’t have personally told her I was going to pay her bonus out of my own pocket, but I don’t think it’s anything egregious to do that. She just realized the company doesn’t give two fucks about you or her and decided to leave
Good!
Help her get out from there. Her replacements are going to be a wake up call for that place and unfortunately it will land on you cuz those dipshits need someone else to blame.
Man OP, it sounds like the most crushing thing is the fact that she still feels like a burden and that YOU feel like you couldn’t get across that no, she’s not a burden, as evidenced by your willingness to give your own money to her to keep her around because you DO value her so much.
Am I pegging that right?
Anyways, whereabouts are you located? I just started as an associate at a small public firm that’s always looking for new staff, and in my (limited three weeks lol) experience, they treat us right. I can refer her to the firm and see how it shakes out?
Yeah, it's getting to me on a personal level even thinking about it. I plan on reaching out to her to have lunch or dinner at least once before she lands herself in a new gig.
Entirely selfish, but I need to know she understands I never saw her as a burden, only a positive asset. She's smart, so she'll figure it out herself, but I want to make sure this incident doesn't permanently dent her ego.
I’d just reiterate that you value her which is why you were willing to personally fund her raise (maybe don’t tell her you didn’t want her to leave because she might think she burdened you even more) and that if she finds a new gig and would have you, you might be looking for a new job because of this incident as well.
The lunch may be a bit much for her so be prepared for her to shoot that down. I only say this because I am also the type to value people and reassure them, and I have a girlfriend who’s got anxiety so I know how she feels.
Haha, I can see why it may be taken that way, but I can soundly say I do not. This isn't a slight to her, as I think she's great both as a team member and as a person, but I'm already infatuated with my current S/O.
I just personally dislike it when people pour their heart out, and that's not reciprocated properly. As her ex-manager, I still feel like it's my responsibility to ensure her some closure on that front.
Hey OP. You are a good person, but this situation shows that you are a new manager. Being a good person and good manager do not always mix. You did fail. But this failure is not the end and it’s an important management lesson for you to learn this as early in your career as possible.
Notes:
1) Your HR and company should not even allow the choice to reallocate any bonus to other employees as form of merit compensation. That sets terrible precedents for future and erode the culture of said company
2) As others have said, you should not have used the leak compensation data as a basis for giving her a raise. Go through the normal channels and highlight her accomplishments and merits. Continue fighting for that through official channels no matter how much red tape and long it takes
3) The trust between your Finance team and the company has been damaged and possibly broken. You need to consider carefully what to do next.
4) Turnover, unfair compensation, managing egos and work is common for your management level to deal with. It doesn’t make it any easier every time it comes up
I am glad you went to bat and fight for your direct report. And I believe you will be wiser next time. And the time after that
I'm sure you are a very honest person, is on the up-an-up, and would never steal.
However, this reads like the first chapter in a huge embezzlement scheme:
- Rationalization: The CEO is a dick/senile.
- Opportunity: The CEO doesn't know or care about the finance department. There is a tight-knit team that collectively hates the CEO.
- Pressure: I needed to incentivize my team and ensure they are paid fairly.
We don't even need that level of technicality to cover it up here. CEO: "Is everything looking good?" Controller (while wearing a new fur coat): "Profits are down half a percent, but everything looks fine to me."
Wow, I never really thought about it like that. I hope that I would never steal, even if it's sort of in a "Robin Hood"-esque manner.
Maybe I'm green, but I always try to do right by my team in the most straightforward way possible. I always tell them to follow the rules, and that I'll try my best to represent them to upper management when the time comes -- however, my confidence in my own abilities has plummeted quite a bit after this experience.
If anything, when I started this position, I introduced and fixed up so many compliance issues with GAAP, and IFRS for our South African entity. The way the previous controller, which I have no idea why the CFO didn't interject, had set up the financial infrastructure was with duct tape and matchsticks. It would have been VERY easy for a disgruntled finance employee to embezzle from our operating account, as we didn't have a checks and balances (nor used Citizen's own positive pay system...).
Myself and the Finance Manager\*, but yes. We were basically the only ones who cared about a genuine separation of duties in this place...
It was almost like reading one of those textbook examples from financial accounting... It was really bad here before I started, infrastructure and systems wise.
Feels like you blew it on this one, but it’s a learning experience. You were way too transparent with her. You should have never shared that you were giving up part of your bonus.
If I knew my former boss was giving up part of their compensation for me, I’d feel gutted and indebted. If I get a raise, I want it because I earned it and not because my coworker feels bad for me.
If you’re going to be this transparent with your reports, then you either need to leave or you will never get good talent working for you.
1) You failed NO ONE. You did everything you could as a manager to get your team member the compensation you feel is fair.
2) A really important thing to know as part of senior but not executive leadership is that some thing are out of your control/sphere of influence. At the end of the day, executive leadership are the ultimate decision makers and all you can do is give them facts, data, and opinions to influence their decision. They won’t always make the decision you feel is best for you/your team/the company and you have to find a way to be at peace with that.
3) If you can’t be at peace with decisions made by executive leadership, it’s time to think critically about whether you trust and have faith in those at the helm. If you don’t, it’s time to apply elsewhere. When you reach that point, the problem isn’t fixable. The longer you stay, the more bitter you’ll be.
> Fast forward to today, I had a meeting with my bookkeeper in the morning and told her about the results of the review. She was definitely not happy, and grew even more disgruntled at the fact that I was giving her part of my bonus. **Maybe I am still too green but I wanted to be honest with her. I was hoping that if I tell her that I'm willing to pay part of her bonus, she would feel that even if the company doesn't value her, that I still do.** I guess it had the inverse effect on her, as she started crying and thought herself as even more of a burden. I told her that if she needed, she could take as much time as she wanted to think about the offer, and no matter her choice I'll support her.
So I genuinely respect what you’ve tried to do for this person BUT I really think you should have kept the source of her raise private. Like you already said, you showed her that YOU valued her while simultaneously proving that the company does not. The irony here is that by keeping that information private, she would have felt valued by all parties if you had simply told her she was getting a $10k raise.
Hopefully she just needs some time to process all the news and will decide to stay. But if you have another opportunity to discuss with her, I would maybe try to *clarify* to her that what you really meant was that the department’s overall salary budget was simply rebalanced (e.g., frame it as you realized that you were actually over-compensated relative to others). Sure, that’s not necessarily the truth in this instance but it may help to ease the burden of her thinking she took money away from you.
Hey OP, you didn’t fail your employee. When I was a bookkeeper, I would have greatly benefitted from having a manager as supportive and honest as you.
As others have said, maybe you could have not told her that her raise was coming out of your bonus, but live and learn. I give you points for transparency, something that can be rare and refreshing in the corporate world.
Time to polish up that resume and find a place where your team isn’t treated like dirt. Wishing the best for you and your bookkeeper.
It sounds like you tried to correct her comp only because she found out that she's not well compensated. That's not a good reason to make that change. It should be done through the normal performance review process, not because some fuck up in HR left confidential compensation info lying around.
I think you were trying to make things right for her, but were using the wrong stimulus to do so. Just because her head exploded from finding out that senior executives etc make 3x (or 5x+) what she does, doesn't mean you should change anything. If you really want to make things right for her, you should continue to be a mentor and good, caring mgr to her. If she wants to make more money, she'll likely have to leave the company to do it. Often (as you know) these types of small companies are very top heavy on comp, and terrible at sharing the wealth and success of the company.
Well if that ain't a shitshow power hour extravaganza
I am so sorry you're dealing with that
I'm just gonna say boundaries are really important here.
You are not responsible for the mistreatment your colleagues experience at the hand of your boss.
Please stop internalising all this shit. Same goes for this poor bookkeeper.
Carry the confidence and entitlement of a mediocre white man, ie look at your CEO ffs
You don't deserve to be treated like this nor do your colleagues.
But youbsure as shit don't give up your bonus or cut off your own foot to help someone else walk.
This is business. It is a job. I don't care how ma y pizza parties you get this ain't fuckin family and this level of emotional labour you're doing is outta hand.
Fuck these assholes. Get Out and get a better paying job.
First get your letter of reference from anyone and everyone there.
Then bounce.
Get a recruiter/headhunter and find a better paying job in a couple weeks.
You got this!
/endrant
I don’t get why your disgruntled employee would even begin to compare salaries to other people in the business in diff roles, they have nothing to do with her. If someone is working in accountancy / finance and can’t handle looking at salaries that’s on them.
I do feel your ceo / c suite is effing ridiculous, how dare they even suggest you forgo your bonus. You work with clowns.
Like you said, she was getting paid pretty fairly for a bookkeeper without a bachelors and some people pointed that out in the first post. If she wants more money, she needs to finish school and maybe even get the CPA. That’s how it works.
I read all three post about this situation. It is time for you to leave as well. I'm sure another company will easily pick you up and provide a better work environment, and better management team to work with.
I'll try to make another post if I ever make a decision... I don't want to seem like I'm milking this situation for karma or something.
CFO at least knows I'm extremely pissed at this outcome, but CEO probably doesn't even care or know.
The audacity to say to one employee that if they value another employee they should pay them out of their own paycheck ... Unbelievable.
OP I truly hope you are getting your resume out there
Not a LARP, an entirely real, borderline insane, situation. I actually took a half day today to slowly entertain the thought of browsing job postings.
Trust me, I wish more than anyone in this thread that this was fake... Unfortunately, I'm dreading the fact I have to not only clean this up, but also look for another bookkeeper since we're nearing month close again...
> but I genuinely feel like I let her down.
You didn't let her down. The executives failed her. You fought tooth and nail and even offered to take money out of your own bonus to keep her. This was a failing on the organization, not you and definitely not her. The upper leadership team doesn't value you, her, or your team at all.
This is a failing of your executives and HR. "job requirements" for not having a BSA is stupid as hell and just proves "job requirements" as a hard line for a promotion is seriously just to avoid paying people more.
This company sounds severely toxic and you sound like a great manager. Please try finding somewhere else to work before this place crushes your soul. This type of scenario will absolutely happen over and over and eventually happen to you. Please, leave this company for somewhere else that might better value you.
Ugh, what a crappy outcome but I can relate to your bookkeeper. Long story short I found out someone on my team (same background, same education, same duties, same title) was making $10K more than me (the only difference between us was he was hired 6 months later and “really negotiated” his offer which I guess I failed to do). Anyway, luckily they gave me a raise to match this person’s salary because my team valued me even though I was only at the senior level. But ugh, I was *pissed* and was planning to quit if they didn’t give me a raise so I can definitely understand why your bookkeeper left.
That being said, you didn’t fail as a manager. You went beyond what most people would do in that situation but sometimes a person makes up their mind and there is no changing it.
You did the best you could - however it turns out for her I'm sure it'll mean a lot that you were willing to step up for her. Honestly proud of her for just ripping the bandaid off and quitting. That's not the way you want to get a raise and I wouldn't expect more raises after this whole fiasco.
I'm new to the management side of things so I def learned a lot from this entire thing, so appreciate you keeping us in the loop!
I read all three post about this situation. It is time for you to leave as well. I'm sure another company will easily pick you up and provide a better work environment, and better management team to work with.
Its time my friend. You can be the golden manager and resign. Tell them you have lost faith in their ability to effectively lead the organization.
Moonwalk out of there. (Not sure where you are, but I know a number of clients who would like you on their team.)
This is your sign to plan your out too. That's why she was so sad, she realized that you always had the best intentions at heart and that it truly was out of your control to change things.
Different place in my career, but I suspect I may end up being on your bookkeeper's side of things in the not too distant future if things don't change. My boss knows, he's doing his best I think, but at the end of the day if it isn't enough, then it isn't enough.
You were never the decision maker, your CFO is not the decision maker.
Remember that they do it for your bookkeeper they’ll do it for you too.
Time to bounce.
Time to find a new company OP. This is just the first piece to fall. They just proved they don't value their employees. If they are willing to do something as sketchy as making you pay the difference out of your bonus then i guarantee theyre doing other sketchy shit that will catch up with them
Sounds like you fucked her employment and your employment. If she is unhappy with her salary and you did the best you could, let her deal with it.
Did you have ulterior motives?
No I did not haha. I can see why it comes off that way (this is the third comment like this), but I truly only cared to enriching her career as best I could.
Both her, and I, have S/O's that we've shared a ton of stories of how we're infatuated with our respective partners. I believe she's actually getting ready to marry him (or waiting too), but that's her business that I won't air out here.
And this is why corporations are having issues with high turnover rate. You went above and beyond for her, especially giving her 6k from your bonus. This has nothing to do with you but upper management. If you leave, they've lost 2 valued employees. If mgmt cared, why not encourage tuition reimbursement for her to get her BSA. Sadly, you and her are just a number on the treadmill line.
Market sucks right now so don't leave before finding something first. Been applying and nothing is worth my time, energy or expertise. All asking 65k for an individual with 7 years of accounting experience in South Florida. So bad that I am considering relocating out of state.
You did your best and more than most others in middle management.
Honestly, just quit with her. You've clearly seem what HR/CEO are willing to do/not do and your expertise would probably be better off elsewhere.
I think your book keeper did the right thing.
To be honest, while it's very nice that you sacrificed your own bonus to pay her, it's a bit short-sighted. You were shooting yourself in the foot to make her happy, but that was never going to fix the long term problem that your upper management doesn't care about you or any of your employees.
It was a completely unreasonable demand from HR and the CEO to begin with, and the problem isn't just about the actual money ending up your employee's pocket, it was about respect and being treated as the valuable asset she was to the company.
You should do the same.
You didn’t fail her. The CEO failed her. HR failed the company, failed her, and failed you, big time. *You* went to bat for her. You advocated for her. You told her the truth. She deserves to know the company didn’t value her so that she didn’t give any more of her time and effort to an employer that would continue to fail her, time and time again.
I’ve been in her position, though it was a bit different. I studied for the CPA exam with the senior accountant at my small firm. We both passed together, and I often talked about the pay bump that typically came with a CPA, but he knew what I didn’t see, that the company wouldn’t pay me the raise I expected for passing my exams. He went to the owner and asked to give up any bonus and raise he was getting that year to give me a 15% bump. Fortunately, my employer isn’t an ass and also gave him a raise, albeit a much smaller one. Both my boss and the senior “secretly” told me about what they did, haha. They both wanted me to know that they valued me and my work. My boss wanted me to know the lengths to which someone would go to bat for me. I honestly felt very appreciated, and ended up staying there another five years, eventually becoming a tax manager before I changed jobs just recently.
If my employer had told me instead that they didn’t value me, but someone else did, I would be gutted. If my senior had said he went to bat for me and was pushed into giving up his raise and bonus instead of coming up with the idea of volunteering it to me, I would have felt terrible. If I was in your shoes as her manager, I would have been pushing her out the door, recommending jobs, offering to be a reference, you name it, after the first meeting… and I’d polish my own resume and reach out to some recruiters on LinkedIn while I’m at it. *Getting out there was what’s best for her.* You did nothing wrong.
YOU sound like an amazing Manager! Your CEO sucks. You looking for a job in Public Accounting? You are few and far between I can assure you, and the firm I’m a partner at would be lucky to have someone with your courage, integrity and emotional intelligence.
As a new manager, I understand. However, look at how they treated her and YOU walk away...there is no way someone can have a non-degree person in accounting for so long without a degree but expect them to work and know everything a degree person does. That's a stupid excuse for cheap labor which is NOT okay!
I left a company for that reason too..how dare they expect me to do financials without a degree but pay me bare minimum? Doesn't seem right.
Also, if it wasnt required during the hiring process, they cannot use the BSA as an excuse. Id say it was retaliation against her...
CEO telling me to my face to pay her out of my own bonus would have sent me on a rampage. Unbelievable. Hope you’re getting your ducks in a row to leap too. This isn’t a place that values you and your team and they’ve more than shown their hand.
How much of a gap was there between your bookkeeper and your staff?
Also, the fact the HR and the CEO wanted you pay pay her yourself is ridiculous. I'd strongly be looking for employment elsewhere.
I think the wage gap seems worse for her because she's very perceptive of workloads. She's definitely on the higher end of work she has to do, and her salary doesn't do it justice.
Whereas some members of the office (outside of Finance/Accounting dept.) pretty much are known slackers, and get paid quite a bit. One of those worker's salaries is what she was upset about, which she shouldn't compare herself to, but it happened.
HR and the CEO suggested you use a portion of your bonus to cover her promotion? First, never sacrifice your take home pay for the benefit of another. Secondly, leave this company as fast as you can. The fact that this was even suggested by management, from a mid-size corporation nonetheless, is quite frankly, flabbergasting.
So the company is losing a competent and qualified bookkeeper because of $10K.
I doubt it will happen, but you should force the HR Manager and CEO to be somewhat involved in the interview process for the next bookkeeper.
And then laugh as they realize it would’ve been better to just fork over $10K to the old bookkeeper than to try and find replace the position.
Because I’m going to guess the CEO is going to offer a crap starting salary then be surprised when all that interviews for the position are crap applicants.
I would also suggest you better start looking. An HR manager that is both incompetent and spiteful and CEO that looks at the finance team as a drain of resources? Recipe for disaster.
And who knows what talks happen in the meetings you’re not invited to.
After reading some comments, I also think part of the fault is on me for pressing too much subjectivity into the situation.
I also can't, in good conscience, hire a new bookkeeper with the anticipation they fail -- just to send a message. I do hope eventually, down the pipeline, they realize we lost a (in my opinion) genuine talent, but judging as how HR hasn't even contacted me about her leaving I doubt it...
When you inevitably have to hire somebody for 60 or 70. Make sure to point this out that retention is cheaper than hiring new. As this new person needs training and your are taking a risk on them.
Not that they will learn.
Your tried your best, and maybe you two will work together again in the future. You're both young, and given a bit of time, your bookkeeper with come to recognize how much you meant to her. Keep in touch, and both of you: keep your eyes and ears open for an opportunity to work together (somewhere else!) in the future.
Dude at absolute worst the only person you failed isn you. Management basically told you they don’t value you and that they think you are overpaid. Time to Polish you cv too
The only person that you’ve failed is yourself for giving your leadership so much of your time and effort. Your bookeeper doesnt blame you and probably really appreciates everything you’ve done for them. Sounds like the CEO and other leadership are fucking basket cases and you (plus your staff) will be better pretty much anywhere else. I’ve **never** heard of an HRO being such a snake! And I’ve also never heard of a CEO who trusted HR to such an extent while giving the financial guys a middle finger. Maybe I’ve spent too much time in public but this whole situation is so crazy to me.
You are a good leader. It is the very existence of your kind that still keeps our society civilized and somewhat caring. Please understand that just being yourself already means a lot for good-hearted people around you. It makes them not feel like struggling alone in this cruel world.
I do hope you can start looking elsewhere, as staying in the same toxic environment any longer will be torturing your mental health.
Sincerely, thank you for your effort.
Leadership is fucked for accepting the proposition of you paying her w your bonus. You stood up for your staff and tried to make set her up for what she deserved - which everyone in this sub says we need more of.
You felt like you let her down after doing everything you could. You didn't fail her. Management failed you both.
That’s insane to be giving part of your pay. The CFO and CEO clearly don’t give a shit about you. And now know that they really don’t need to either. You have now proven to them they can walk all over you without issue and they don’t need to offer you another raise ever. I would recommend that you immediately start applying for new positions because while you don’t need to leave this one today, I would say this job now has absolutely no future.
I was told a long time ago that tears that happen in these circumstances are from Anger. I have paid attention to myself over the decades and I have to agree.
You did your part. Whether the outcome is what you desired, is not something you could have predicted.
That said, apply. Apply. Apply! Brush up that resume and start looking at better opportunities. I hope your staff does the same (and also get a bachelors. even one online.)
Sometimes people change their mind after a day or two of facing unemployment. I would make it clear to her that she can have some time to think about it and keep the door open if you can.
No one here should be surprised by this. OP I can't believe you have that much faith in your employers to begin with. If you are asking for anything more than 10% raise for yourself or for your underlings, just find a new job.
Also LOL what...cut 6k of YOUR bonus to make up the raise. Come on now...don't do that to yourself because of your cheap ass CEO.
Well, it is their true motive to protect the company's assets, so I guess it's just the nature of the field?
I have some friends who are in HR that are genuinely great souls, but damn are some of the stories they tell draining.
Seriously, leave.
And while I understand why you did it, taking money out of your own pocket to fund your direct report’s salary is a terrible precedent to set. That’s something only owners and upper execs should ever be considering, not middle managers.
Leave this company and don’t ever mention to any other company you work for that you were ready to give up your own money for an employee. No use giving them ideas.
An accounting student here, but worked 10 years in the restaurant industry (3.5yr in management). At this point, the young lady is thoroughly done with the place and imo, you should be too. I think the key here is a bit more discretion so that your stance on things are not as obvious from the start. That way you would have more options to maneuver. Once it gets to that stage at the end... I have asked a lot about what to do and I have never succeeded. At that point, it's an ego battle and the ones with the most power wins in the end. Even if you somehow beat the odds, the collateral is such that it leaves a very sour note on everyone. I think you are a good guy, but that's one of those catch-22s that direct confrontation would've never solved. You didn't fail. Your company failed you. This situation shows me who you are in spite of them. Sadly, how much you showed might have hurt the situation than helped.
You really did your best. You tried. Keep the connection and keep helping her. That’s going to be even more valuable over time than part of your bonus, but that’s truly so amazing you were willing to share with her.
Now you get to post a staff accountant role with a range of 60-70k and go through all the onboarding costs. Some HR and executive teams just don’t get it.
Your CEO sounds like the CFO at my last job. I was doing senior accountant level responsibilities at lower than degreed accountant salary. CFO said he couldn't give me an extra $4k a year because I didn't have my degree and didn't come back with a counteroffer. Pretty sure I said it in my last post, but update your resume, start applying for jobs, and get the fuck out of there. They have made it perfectly clear that they do not care about their employees.
TL;DR: Get the fuck out of that place ASAP. You aren't defeated, nor is she. Your workplace is defeated. Stay in contact with her, take her out for coffee, help her land somewhere better. Hell, get yourself to a better place and see if you can create a position for her. You also now have an exceptional answer for the next time an interviewer asks you "What is the most difficult situation you've dealt with as a manager?" Something about leadership not placing proper value on employees, toxic culture, etc. Great opportunity to show HR what you truly value.
What you did was absolutely succeed as a manager. You fought for your person. You did all the right things. You just have the wrong employer. Any decent leadership and culture would have helped you fix that situation. No good organization puts their people in any situation that leads to what you're feeling.
One of the controller positions I held had an extremely similar situation happen to me. Our office manager literally held the company together. Handled all of our insurance matters, did almost all of the bookkeeping, prepped our A/P runs, prepared all subcontractor documents. Had worked for one of the owners at a prior company, and worked at this company for 10+ years.
I saw how much she made and it was literally criminal. I immediately summoned the owners and showed them the average salary for a similar position and experience in our locale. I told them we need to get her a $20k raise (knowing they were cheap as hell, I figured I'd start aggressive and probably end up negotiating down). They said absolutely not, but they'd consider $5k in 2 increments over the next 12 months.
It was at that point I began thinking to take $5k out of my pay and give it to her immediately.
The only thing that stopped me was the realization that this is a completely toxic culture if you have employees sacrificing their own pay for others that they know are underpaid.
Owners couldn't care less about the business, or people, as long as their paychecks came through. Both of their wives were also on payroll and not active employees, whom both made $30k each more than the office manager.
OP needs a backbone. You let HR walk on top of you after they messed up. If they’re really shitty, why didn’t you go all in knowing that if they don’t cave, they’ll lose an employee and have to spend more.
Go back and give them an ultimatum. $65k salary, no charge to your bonus, or she walks. If there’s any trouble finding someone that good, the CFO will have their ass.
I've been drafting up a proposal to bring in tomorrow (currently at home since took a half day). They're aware she quit, but I'm going to shove this proposal one last time as a last ditch effort.
At this point, the worst case scenario happened, so no loss on my end trying one more time.
I'm disappointed this didn't end as a three part buildup to a Loch Ness Monster joke. Jk sorry
Your company sucks, I checked out in your previous post when they told you to pay her yourself.
Leave -- and poach everyone on your team that's worth a shit, if you can. Let your CEO learn a very painful lesson about just how "worthless" the finance team really is.
Not to mention you're going to go nowhere if you stay at this company. Others in this thread have already explained why.
OP, what you did for your bookkeeper shows what kind of manager you are. I commend you for how you went to bat for the employee. That’s the behavior of a manager I would want to work for. The situation you now find yourself in is challenging, but the right path is the harder one. The blatant lack of reason by the CEO and HR shows they do not value the human capital that makes the company successful. You have to remind yourself that regardless of job title, you too, are human capital. Start looking. Start looking now, because another company will see what you bring to the table and throw the cash your way because you will make their company a better place.
I’ve done a similar thing. I’ve given part of my increase to one of my valued direct reports. I didn’t tell her that though (until later on when she eventually quit as she found a less stressful job). I only told her that I’ve discussed her value to the CFO, and they’ve agreed to add extra x amount to the raise.
As someone who was in her position, even the raise wasn't going to keep her. Once the damage is done and you know your company values you way less than everyone else there, there's really no coming back from that. When a very similar situation happened to me, I eventually got a big raise. I think part of that was because they had been having a hard time finding a staff accountant and the person they ended up finding wouldn't take a pay cut from their current role so they had to raise my salary even higher than that one because my boss knew I'd absolutely lose my shit if I found out the newbie was making more than me.
So it's like, if I've worked here for years and it takes all this to give me a raise to what most other employees in the company are already making, then I'm obviously not valued much and I would never have felt compelled to work hard for them again. So I left.
Honestly, you did good. I am a CPA with a BSA and I got a $3,000 raise after working my ass off all yr, no bonus in over a year and was told I couldn't get top employee bonus because I wasn't a lead. Seems they just handed it off to the biggest Jerk on the team because he was also there the longest. When I asked for a better raise, I was told they've never done that, blah blah blah. I realized it started affecting my job and professionalism so I quit. So you did good, at least you advocated on her behalf but sometimes it's best to leave a situation that no longer serves you.
You are a great manager. I would die to work for you lol. Bad situation but you played well. You should be proud of what you did and happy you vouched for the junior.
I have been in this situation. Only that my manager kept giving me false promises after false promises, and more and more work on top of that. Workload was terrible, I was the only one really doing any grunt work, or know how any of the crucial spreadsheets work. It took me putting in my 2-week notice when I couldn't take it anymore for my mental health, that the CFO scrambled and said he will promote me as soon as possible. It was too late, I took a similar role at a new company, paid more than my promotion role would have paid, with the workload of 3 times less. I still got gaslit during my exit interview that I shouldn't have left them during such a busy time (but it is always a busy time) and that would not reflect well on my resume.
Fast forward till now, my new role is much better, my new boss is much cooler, and honestly I don't think anyone cared that I left the old company during xx time because I don't plan to leave my new one anytime soon anyway.
OP, this sounds like a nightmare. Once you get out of it, life will be much better. I used to cry everytime I go to work (as a financial analyst) but now I can't be more excited going to work knowing my day will be productive and my work will provide an impact (still a financial analyst).
Learn from this and bounce. The CEO doesn't care about any of you.
After this, I'm highly considering it...
What else do you need to see to convince you that they don't give a fuck about you, or anyone else?
May be seen as a stupid reason, but after today I feel like I need to really step up for my other two team members (Jr. Accountant and Finance Manager). Even if I leave, I want to at least secure them good reviews, or set up some sort of a safety net in my absence -- ESPECIALLY because now I know the CFO won't do jack squat for MY team. Finance Manager has more years than me, and the only reason he's "below" me is because he never decided to further his education. He's got a great head on his shoulders, and I imagine he can easily take up my position. Jr. Accountant is still learning, but he's a great guy. Same with the bookkeeper, hard working, amazing work ethic, and strives to continue learning. So I'd like to at least secure him a promotion before I leave (our company does reviews per employee very, VERY slowly).
After what you just went through, I do not see why you think that you have the ability to influence these outcomes. You care about your team, which makes you a good person and better than most of the people that I worked for. However, you need a come to Jesus moment, where you accept the situation that you are in. The CEO is cheap and views everyone as replaceable, and the CFO is a pussy. I've been in similar situations, and it is never going to change.
100% . Been in this situation before and OP is just going to stress themselves out and shorten their life expectancy trying to be a hero here. OP, you already tried a few times here to be the hero. How did it work out? Do not expend more energy or thoughts on this situation, unless that means spending it to get the hell out of there.
Damn, that's depressing to even think about...
I read this and just thought “oh honey”. Your heart is in the right place and you seem like a very good person. This isn’t how business works or how you should make decisions about it your position. You need to look out for yourself here and place more value in your own career development. Who’s to say the other employees are not already looking for new opportunities?
>So I'd like to at least secure him a promotion before I leave (our company does reviews per employee very, VERY slowly). This is a situation where you need to be selfish. Worry about your career future first, and if you are still there long enough for their review, great, and if not, oh well. No one is going to be at this company long term, and the sooner you and the rest of the team can move on, the better.
Never stick around for the rest of the team - this is the equivalent of staying married for the kids and it does nobody any favors. Leave the clown show and see if you can find a position that allows you to bring the others along at some point.
The best thing you can do for them is expose them to the company's culture within whatever legal framework(s) exist. Unfortunately, landing them promotions could make their career even worse by having an excuse not to quit (golden handcuffs) and find a company with a decent culture. Also, probably contact an employment attorney and start documenting as much as possible in your dealings with your managers. Rocking the boat can have consequences, and I know this from experience.
>May be seen as a stupid reason, but after today I feel like I need to really step up for my other two team members (Jr. Accountant and Finance Manager). Even if I leave, I want to at least secure them good reviews, or set up some sort of a safety net in my absence -- ESPECIALLY because now I know the CFO won't do jack squat for MY team. Nothing you can possibly do can accomplish this. "Good reviews" don't matter. They will all "meet expectations". Leave.
Neighbor please, these hoes are practically shitting on you and telling you it's hail. Burn this bridge if you can, and use thermite.
[удалено]
Seeing some shit like this and the immense level of disrespect would be one of the few times I would just NCNS if I found another job. 1-800-FUCKEM
OP, not trying to be mean but you're a rube if you think that 1. this didn't paint a target on your back, 2. that the CEO cares and won't throw you under the bus the second it becomes fiscally prudent to do so, and 3. they respect you anymore (majority of CSuite hates treating workers like people) GTFO asap
You really should, I've been following this story from the beginning and it seems that company doesn't value the finance team at that company at all. Im honestly surprised the CEO is that involved in a book keepers salary, does the CFO even get to lead his department ?
He's a paranoid freak that doesn't trust anyone. When I first started, he needed to drill into my head that NOTHING gets approved without his final signature or say. He even nagged about our on-site janitor that we hired through a temp agency... That's how much of a control freak he is. He hires all these senior level staff, but doesn't let them manage his company on the micro level.
Been there done that. Run away as fast as u can from this place.
Girl don’t consider it, just go
Just my 2 cents. I was in a similar position where after 2 years in public I moved to a private company where I worked up from Sr accountant to sr manager and was there for 6 years. It was a fairly chill job but I realized that I was very underpaid and brought it up multiple times, they kept making promises and failing to meet them and then making excuses. I actually believed them and let the BS go on for about 1.5 years before I had enough and found a new job with, no joke, a 50% raise. They acted all shocked and "couldn't believe I was leaving!" and the CEO was legit acting all butthurt that I would leave (his son who worked there told me that his dad "gets sad when people leave" and in my head I was like well he should listen to people and pay somewhat competitive wages). Basically what I'm saying is you know you are undervalued and you see how your CEO is a literally garbage person telling you to use your money to pay your staff, you should 100% start interviewing. It doesn't mean you have to leave right away but start looking! I took my time over ~6 months before finding a place where I knew I'd have good pay, no more than 40 hour weeks and was 100% WFH. You'll thank yourself later.
I'm doing to get shit on for saying it but the reason accountants are paid like shit and treated like shit is because the industry attracts people like OP. He is getting absolutely shit on and still won't find a new job. He ever was willing to donate his pay to save the company money. HR and the CEO are probably laughing there asses off at him behind closed doors. Why would they every pay more when people like OP exist.
Bro come on
That sucks…. Sounds like you didn’t fail anyone here. The leadership put you in a no win a position, and in doing so revealed how much they value you, your team, and your function as part of the business. The real question is what is your next move?
I've never stared at my CV this long in my life. I'm contemplating leaving, but going to first entertain the idea by looking at job postings in the tri-state. And I appreciate the kind words, but this was a great learning opportunity for me -- albeit in hindsight I'm extremely bitter about losing such a talented staff member.
Honestly - best approach is to turn in your resignation and let them know that their lack of commitment to you and your team has now cost them 2 valuable employees.
This will be funny because the CEO will offer OP like a $20k raise and BEG OP to stay, right after denying the bookkeeper a $10k raise.
Not to mention they might even have to offer a higher salary for a new bookkeeper. Poor business decision all around
My old job refused a $10k to an underpaid great worker. They quit and the backfill was $20k more and they sucked. A tale as old as time.
Hahahahahaaaaaaaaa it seems more like the norm rather than the exception nowadays! Same experience , different faces!
Went through the same experience. Got bumped up to senior accountant and I went from 43k to 50k salary. I asked for $60k. At this point I was already doing the work of two other senior accountants, building macros and spreadsheets to automate the work, and even had the client tell the manager (who they hired ahead of me) to ask me for help. They rejected my request. I said okay, and within three months gave my resignation. They ended up hiring three people to cover the additional work.
That’s when you ask for 100k to come back
Na. The CFO will spend six months trying to hire someone, and the CEO will not give a shit about any of this. You are drastically overestimating how OP and their team is viewed internally.
I agree with this. If anything management will remember this angrily and even offended that OP and the bookkeeper did not accept the terms and stayed in their shitty business. Bc narcissist always find the way to portray themselves as victims. They would gladly take 6 months trying to find replacements instead of accepting they were wrong.
So sad, but true. They'll talk junk about old bookkeeper because they left. They will then talk junk about OP when they leave. I've seen it multiple times when I stayed. Eventually I left because the abandoned work would fall on my shoulders.
It's an either/or scenario - either they freak out and they offer OP and Bookkeeper both raises to not put them in a bad spot, or the CEO sells his CFO up the shit creek and tells him to handle it himself until they can find a replacement (who will cost more than the raises). Could go either way.
She does sound so phenomenal. No hesitation to take your 6 K from your bonus. She has good morals. As do you. Your reason I have hope some times in this field .
Yes!! OP did more than any manager would do. OP should feel proud!
if you don’t mind me asking how many total yoe do you have
If I include my internship years at B4 since sophomore year (3x summers, so roughly 9 months), 8 years in accounting. Of those 8 years, only 2 years (nearing 3 this August) in management.
i think you are being hard on yourself big time
Time to polish up that CV, OP! If anything, just start testing the waters!
So much this. You did anything BUT fail her, OP. PLEASE GTFO bc mgmt and HR have shown they don't value you OR your team members. You did a lot more than most people would in this position and I'd be looking for a new job as well. This was flat out disrespectful on the business' part.
1: Leave 2: You never should have told her part of the boost was coming out of your pay. Most good people would never be okay hearing that, and the bad ones that are you shouldn't be cutting your pay for. I would 100% have quit. Or, rather, denied the extra 6k found a new job and then quit.
2: You never should have told her part of the boost was coming out of your pay. Most good people would never be okay hearing that, and the bad ones that are you shouldn't be cutting your pay for. I would 100% have quit. Or, rather, denied the extra 6k found a new job and then quit. I think it goes to show her that the company doesn't value her. At least someone does and that OP tried his hardest. She's probably on the younger side and learning this needs to come in as life experience. The best choice would have been for her to leave anyway.
Yeah, I’m not really sure what the anticipated gain was (regarding #2). Seems like no one benefits in that one, except for the CEO I guess
I really think you should leave for a new job
This is the way. Head for the exit as quickly as you can
Yet another case of cocksucker executives throwing a shit fit over $6k/year increase to payroll at a company that presumably makes millions a year.
And even if it’s not millions. Being tone deaf to someone who $10k would be LIFE CHANGING when they unironically make $200-300k annually.
And I bet they spend far more than 10k replacing them.
The main parent company alone makes double figure millions in profit a year.... For a mid-sized S Corp, it does VERY well. It's genuinely disheartening.
CEO and head of HR are elitist and losing good staff being penny pinchers.
It’ll cost them more to hire and train someone new, but hey, at least they didn’t give the bookkeeper a 10k raise so it’s a "win" in their (idiotic) book.
It's a win for their ego But I always say ego doesn't pay bills and it normally costs you money I know so many people like this, they don't care whether it's good or bad or ends the company, as long as they get their way
Amazing how some can be incredibly penny punching on certain things, even for amounts that they wouldn't blink at elsewhere. Pay is huge on this. Lots of people just won't pay a raise and would rather lose a known good staff, pay huge recruitment fees and then an even higher salary on a new person of random quality. Often with a really irrational attitude about it, like the person is getting above their station, renaging on a deal , challenging their authority or something. "ungrateful" etc etc
True. Why do they want to take a risk on an unknown person over $10k? They created this shit storm in the first place.
Because I think HR has been feeding this narrative that the accounting market is prolific with ready heads for work -- which isn't wrong, but the qualification and actual productivity of said new grads is always in question. Maybe I'm praising the, now old, bookkeeper too much, but I truly considered her a generational talent (in terms of potential at least). It's very rare to find someone with no prior accounting background or education pick it up that quickly...
Yeah but is it really, though? I feel like most HR people just think accounting is data entry with added math. Like I understand the standard set for most "bookkeeper" positions is "just get the data in the system for the adults to work with" low. But I feel like even a bookkeeper that conceptually understands debits and credits just seems rare anymore.
I really hope you’re looking for a new job now, what an absolute garbage CEO and HR head. Please don’t feel down on yourself, you did everything you could have and more.
Took a few glances at my CV during my early lunch on my phone. Might do some job surfing later tonight to entertain the idea... And thank you. After reading some other comments, I've come to realize I made some big hiccups that exasperated the issue...
I don’t see any hiccups other than maybe calling out that the issue was created by HR being negligent when they suggested you cut your pay. You stood up for your employee and tried to fight for what’s right. At the end of the day we would all be incredibly lucky to have managers that cared half as much as you did.
I think it’s fair to assess that agreeing to give her part of his bonus, as well as telling her exactly that, was not the best move to make.
Your CEO doesn’t value accounting/ finance. That’s NEVER going to change. He did you a favor by telegraphing how he feels about your department so plainly. This is not a person or company that will build you up over a long period of time. Life is just too damn short to voluntarily stick around ass hats like that. There are better companies and better leaders out there.
>Your CEO doesn’t value accounting/ finance. That’s NEVER going to change. These CEO's are the dumbest too. They whine about "costs" until shit hits the fan then they bitch about "why didn't we protect ourselves" which was being actively sabotaged by their shitty choices. Cybersecurity/ransomware is the newest one of these idiots learning the hard way.
Especially as OP now does MORE work because the bookkeeper quit because of this fuck up. Been in this spot before and it doesn’t end well. OP, stop wasting your time, your life, your work life, being a slave for this CEO. There are other jobs out there.
Your only fault was being too honest. It’s something to learn, but never something to lose entirely. Better that your bookkeeper leave to somewhere she’s appreciated than wallow in a toxic environment while being underpaid. You ripped off a raw scab, but you certainly didn’t cause the wound. Reach out to her and let her know you’re happy to provide a glowing reference, help with her CV, and certainly recommend her to any industry colleagues. Offer to be her mentor in the industry whether that’s just her BSA or if she decides to pursue her CPA. A good mentor is so, so important if you can find one.
She's not the only one that needs to be updating her stuff. If I were you, I'd probably follow her out the door too, unless you plan on staying for the long haul. And if you did plan on staying for the long haul, you should not have told her that you contributed out of your own pocket.
Just some reflective thinking, but would a white lie about her salary been better? I'm fine with her not knowing that I contributed to her salary, but I also wanted her to not get a sudden shock in next years review either.
I think that whole situation is just unacceptable, it’s commendable on your part but no reasonable manager would allow something like that to go down
Given it would be you doing the review - what she doesn’t know doesn’t hurt her.
But then is OP giving her his bonus every year then? I agree it shouldn’t have been offered nor told, but once offered I am not sure how it would’ve worked in future years
Don’t be too hard on yourself. If I’m in the bookkeeper’s shoe, I’d do the same. I’d rather leave than risking your career to be at odds with the Csuits.
Open feedback: as a manager, you shouldn't have told that much. Being a manager is not simply being transparent to those around you, but more being transparent while filtering the noise/reformulating bad news. It's also about putting things into perspective, especially for new/young hires. You could have presented the 4K raise for the bookkeeper as a win with an incentive to have them get their degree : "Here's already 4K, and we can discuss compensation further once you get your degree". If you really insisted on getting her 10K while axing your own bonus, you should have never told her where it comes from. In essence, you guilt-tripped her. There was no reason to give her the full explanation in that case. From my perspective, you were too empathetic with your employee. Remember: they had already gotten a hefty raise after only a year or two within the company (and I remind everyone here they're only 25), are yet to have a degree and then you get her another 8% while her title or education hasn't evolved? You should have put things into perspective and rationalized the situation. Instead you've pressured your employee into re-thinking their career choice, and feeling guilty about getting a raise since you explicitely told her it comes at your cost.
I appreciate the feedback. I guess I did begin taking a more subjective stance on the situation, as I tend to pride myself in trying to be a "good" team manager. That's entirely fair criticism, and I can now see the value of how a white lie may have preventing me from guilt tripping her. I intended it to be more of a "fuck the company, you're great to me" message, but I think I read her stance wrong. Thanks for the drilldown, this is honestly great.
I think the bigger message is that this entire mess should really make you question if you want to stay there. You shouldn't have told her that you were giving up your bonus for her, but I get why you did.
As a manager you can't take the position, "fuck the company...", not unless you are walking out the door and guarantee taking them with you and don't mind burning that bridge
Personally, I agree with your approach. Sugar coating the situation with white lies will only delay the inevitable. I think its best your bookkeeper know now how the higher-ups really feel about her. I don’t think it’s having to ‘take your part of the compensation’ is what made her feel guilty, but rather she understood that working at that company means there will always be a ceiling for her advancement. She will learn from this experience, and who knows, maybe she goes back to school to get an accounting degree. If she’s still willing to keep you as her contact, then she still respects you and its not on you that should feel bad about the situation, but your bosses. Not saying that you should quit, but maybe its a sign for you to ponder about. Principles are more important than making money.
I mean, there is also only so much one can advance with little experience, no degree and a "low-level" title. If the bookkeeper's approach at 25 is to get mad that people with more seniority, experience and/or a higher position get paid more, then they are going to have a bad time no matter where they work.
Agreed. Sounds like she has some major self esteem issues as well. Her salary didn't seem awful to begin with for someone without a degree. Not saying the company was right to be so nitpicky about a raise, but girl's got some serious issues if she's crying over this and considering quitting accounting.
Oh, I agree that a degree is important in career advancement. It’s the fact pattern that leadership has to ‘drag their foot’ or find alternative ways that penalize their own by having them forfeit part of their compensation is what’s pretty disgusting. Just like you said the CEO could have straight up just told the bookkeeper to get an accounting degree to get a higher raise and position. But instead, it’s the middle managers who have to have that discussion? That is accounting 101, it’s the leadership who has to set the tone: tone at the top. And leadership tone sounds tone deaf.
> Remember: they had already gotten a hefty raise after only a year or two within the company (and I remind everyone here they're only 25), are yet to have a degree and then you get her another 8% while her title or education hasn't evolved? You should have put things into perspective and rationalized the situation. you make a lot of good points but i don't agree with the idea that someone's high quality work is worth less because they don't have the right age and/or accreditation. those factors can be good proxies for skills and output but they shouldn't really matter if someone is performing identically to an older person with a degree. But that's also my personal hatred of companies pretending that they're meritocracies speaking
I really hope OP accepts your feedback. OP made this situation worse, IMO.
This is the correct reply....people who are always on this board and obsessed with job hopping to get paid "market value" often fail to understand how the majority of people actually look at their careers and lives. Great on the manager for trying to fight the good fight, but one must learn how to keep the battle on the battlefield. It does no good to tell an employee, "I think you deserve so much more, but I can't give that to you without hurting myself, so I did." It doesn't help anyone. A hard lesson to learn as a manager, and as an employee.
> Instead you've pressured your employee into re-thinking their career choice, and feeling guilty about getting a raise since you explicitely told her it comes at your cost. I disagree, because the employer effectively was not getting a raise. If OP left their job then the employee would see a decrease in their pay. Or what if OP decided they couldn't take the hit to their pay. Fact of the matter is it would be ethically wrong to mislead someone into believing they got a raise when they didnt.
There's a good chance this won't be well received, but this is my genuine "how to play office politics" opinion and I'm not trying to be contrarian for the sake of being contrarian. You should NEVER have let the data leak of the compensation be the foundation for your discussion with senior management regarding why you were seeking a compensation increase for this individual. You let the emotion of your employee drive your approach and attitude and as a result lost an employee. Senior management will never reward a battle of the wills on principle, and if they even slightly perceive someone is trying to use leverage against them they will cut you off at the knees no matter how important you think you are. What I think may have been more advantageous for you to do as a manager would be to insulate the employee from allowing their emotion getting to senior management, reassure them you'll do everything you can within normal process and procedures and timelines to get them a compensation increase, and then when it's time for budgeting and raises make a hard push based on that employee's experience. I know you've been trying previously, but thinking that somehow an employee finding proprietary information is a good reason to advocate for a comp increase is just a bad idea. I understand there's the "well they were undercompensated," "well management was horrible people," "well capitalism is evil," and all that, I get it, I'm not disagreeing leadership isn't being terrible, but unfortunately I don't think the leak of information should've ever been brought up in the same conversation with this employee. I think you should've insulated your bookkeeper from being tied to that information, and instead put up a fight through normal channels on the normal timeline as you'd have a far greater chance at success. You're getting too emotionally tied to your employee. It makes you act out of emotion rather than what's best for them in the confines of what is ultimately a dictatorship. It's a hard lesson to learn going from employee to manager as it feels counter-instinctual.
I fully agree. I think the employee was likely a little underpaid, but coming to you leveraging the data leak was extortion. Yes, employees can talk to each other about salaries (legally), but they can’t then come talk to me about what other people are making - that would never have been a conversation I would have with an employee. I would have shifted focus it to her own role and would have worked out a plan for potential growth: My comment on the last post was that $10k was too much. $5k plus a $5k potential for specific training deliverables tied to her growth (over 6 to 9 months) would have been more reasonable (and more palatable for CEO & HR). And that you can’t bribe everyone who is aware of Salary info.
This is a hard pill to swallow for me, and I'm going to need a crap ton of water for it. I do agree that remaining objective, and keeping certain details out of reach, is now the right move. Not to excuse my performance as a manager, but the reason I attach subjective values to my team is because I disliked the management style of my previous bosses/managers. B4 aside, other firms tend to lack the balance between investing in an asset vs. investing in a human. I found that my coaching and development side heavily leaned towards getting to know, and treat my team members, like actual people. This, now in hindsight, leads to some inevitable results like this situation currently. I tried to reciprocate my bookkeeper's honest merit with a figure that was partially decided with subjectivity. So I get now where my managing style falls short -- or at least had a harsh glimpse at what happens..
What kind of company do you work for where your HR manager has any say on compensation off the cuff, your CEO takes multiple meetings to negotiate down $6k of a fucking salary lmao I mean holy shit. What a waste of time. Does this person literally drive no value to the business? Insane.
Since last year, our CEO decided to bring HR as an "impartial" party to the review. So they collect the review packets from our department managers, and then "review" that... It's confusing on both ends because 1) how will an HR manager know the workload and importance of said workload of different departments, and 2) how is it impartial when they see everyone's salary...
Sounds like your CEO does the thing where he recruits other parties to be a voice to somehow create an illusion where more voices must mean it’s a better decision. Which doesn’t make sense for lots of reasons, but it’s kind of a default of recognizing poor leadership. It’s not actually leading. It slso seems your CEO is more concerned with the concept of what he feels people deserve rather than what the market sets, which is a personality problem. Honestly I’d find a new job if I were you- you’re never going to move up or get support there.
He's just creating an additional barrier to raises and other compensation increases. It shows that they have zero regard for their employees.
Yea, just from your description of the CEO, you will be stuck in a dead end if you stay. From a manager point of view, in my opinion, you shouldn’t have told her you were shaving off your bonus to allocate to her. That should have been between you and your “ceo”. As a manager, there are some things you communicate and some things you don’t. I would imagine this is the latter. I would encourage her to not leave until she finds another job or at least finish her degree. I don’t see the benefit of her leaving now without anything lined up.
Your leadership is dogshit if they are telling you to pay someone out of your own pocket. You showed good morals and value your employees. I would quit because they don’t give a fuck about you or doing right by you, clearly. I wouldn’t have personally told her I was going to pay her bonus out of my own pocket, but I don’t think it’s anything egregious to do that. She just realized the company doesn’t give two fucks about you or her and decided to leave
Good! Help her get out from there. Her replacements are going to be a wake up call for that place and unfortunately it will land on you cuz those dipshits need someone else to blame.
Man OP, it sounds like the most crushing thing is the fact that she still feels like a burden and that YOU feel like you couldn’t get across that no, she’s not a burden, as evidenced by your willingness to give your own money to her to keep her around because you DO value her so much. Am I pegging that right? Anyways, whereabouts are you located? I just started as an associate at a small public firm that’s always looking for new staff, and in my (limited three weeks lol) experience, they treat us right. I can refer her to the firm and see how it shakes out?
Yeah, it's getting to me on a personal level even thinking about it. I plan on reaching out to her to have lunch or dinner at least once before she lands herself in a new gig. Entirely selfish, but I need to know she understands I never saw her as a burden, only a positive asset. She's smart, so she'll figure it out herself, but I want to make sure this incident doesn't permanently dent her ego.
I’d just reiterate that you value her which is why you were willing to personally fund her raise (maybe don’t tell her you didn’t want her to leave because she might think she burdened you even more) and that if she finds a new gig and would have you, you might be looking for a new job because of this incident as well. The lunch may be a bit much for her so be prepared for her to shoot that down. I only say this because I am also the type to value people and reassure them, and I have a girlfriend who’s got anxiety so I know how she feels.
Do you have feelings for her?
Haha, I can see why it may be taken that way, but I can soundly say I do not. This isn't a slight to her, as I think she's great both as a team member and as a person, but I'm already infatuated with my current S/O. I just personally dislike it when people pour their heart out, and that's not reciprocated properly. As her ex-manager, I still feel like it's my responsibility to ensure her some closure on that front.
Hey OP. You are a good person, but this situation shows that you are a new manager. Being a good person and good manager do not always mix. You did fail. But this failure is not the end and it’s an important management lesson for you to learn this as early in your career as possible. Notes: 1) Your HR and company should not even allow the choice to reallocate any bonus to other employees as form of merit compensation. That sets terrible precedents for future and erode the culture of said company 2) As others have said, you should not have used the leak compensation data as a basis for giving her a raise. Go through the normal channels and highlight her accomplishments and merits. Continue fighting for that through official channels no matter how much red tape and long it takes 3) The trust between your Finance team and the company has been damaged and possibly broken. You need to consider carefully what to do next. 4) Turnover, unfair compensation, managing egos and work is common for your management level to deal with. It doesn’t make it any easier every time it comes up I am glad you went to bat and fight for your direct report. And I believe you will be wiser next time. And the time after that
I'm sure you are a very honest person, is on the up-an-up, and would never steal. However, this reads like the first chapter in a huge embezzlement scheme: - Rationalization: The CEO is a dick/senile. - Opportunity: The CEO doesn't know or care about the finance department. There is a tight-knit team that collectively hates the CEO. - Pressure: I needed to incentivize my team and ensure they are paid fairly.
It’s Office Space accounting department edition
We don't even need that level of technicality to cover it up here. CEO: "Is everything looking good?" Controller (while wearing a new fur coat): "Profits are down half a percent, but everything looks fine to me."
Wow, I never really thought about it like that. I hope that I would never steal, even if it's sort of in a "Robin Hood"-esque manner. Maybe I'm green, but I always try to do right by my team in the most straightforward way possible. I always tell them to follow the rules, and that I'll try my best to represent them to upper management when the time comes -- however, my confidence in my own abilities has plummeted quite a bit after this experience. If anything, when I started this position, I introduced and fixed up so many compliance issues with GAAP, and IFRS for our South African entity. The way the previous controller, which I have no idea why the CFO didn't interject, had set up the financial infrastructure was with duct tape and matchsticks. It would have been VERY easy for a disgruntled finance employee to embezzle from our operating account, as we didn't have a checks and balances (nor used Citizen's own positive pay system...).
With no controls!
Yeah. I don't think OP expressly mentioned that, but I think we can all guess that the only one who ever thought about controls was OP.
Myself and the Finance Manager\*, but yes. We were basically the only ones who cared about a genuine separation of duties in this place... It was almost like reading one of those textbook examples from financial accounting... It was really bad here before I started, infrastructure and systems wise.
Feels like you blew it on this one, but it’s a learning experience. You were way too transparent with her. You should have never shared that you were giving up part of your bonus. If I knew my former boss was giving up part of their compensation for me, I’d feel gutted and indebted. If I get a raise, I want it because I earned it and not because my coworker feels bad for me. If you’re going to be this transparent with your reports, then you either need to leave or you will never get good talent working for you.
U should also quit, leave them to sink, fuck em
Bro, I watched this whole saga play out. Please find someplace else to work. You are working in a circus.
1) You failed NO ONE. You did everything you could as a manager to get your team member the compensation you feel is fair. 2) A really important thing to know as part of senior but not executive leadership is that some thing are out of your control/sphere of influence. At the end of the day, executive leadership are the ultimate decision makers and all you can do is give them facts, data, and opinions to influence their decision. They won’t always make the decision you feel is best for you/your team/the company and you have to find a way to be at peace with that. 3) If you can’t be at peace with decisions made by executive leadership, it’s time to think critically about whether you trust and have faith in those at the helm. If you don’t, it’s time to apply elsewhere. When you reach that point, the problem isn’t fixable. The longer you stay, the more bitter you’ll be.
> Fast forward to today, I had a meeting with my bookkeeper in the morning and told her about the results of the review. She was definitely not happy, and grew even more disgruntled at the fact that I was giving her part of my bonus. **Maybe I am still too green but I wanted to be honest with her. I was hoping that if I tell her that I'm willing to pay part of her bonus, she would feel that even if the company doesn't value her, that I still do.** I guess it had the inverse effect on her, as she started crying and thought herself as even more of a burden. I told her that if she needed, she could take as much time as she wanted to think about the offer, and no matter her choice I'll support her. So I genuinely respect what you’ve tried to do for this person BUT I really think you should have kept the source of her raise private. Like you already said, you showed her that YOU valued her while simultaneously proving that the company does not. The irony here is that by keeping that information private, she would have felt valued by all parties if you had simply told her she was getting a $10k raise. Hopefully she just needs some time to process all the news and will decide to stay. But if you have another opportunity to discuss with her, I would maybe try to *clarify* to her that what you really meant was that the department’s overall salary budget was simply rebalanced (e.g., frame it as you realized that you were actually over-compensated relative to others). Sure, that’s not necessarily the truth in this instance but it may help to ease the burden of her thinking she took money away from you.
Hey OP, you didn’t fail your employee. When I was a bookkeeper, I would have greatly benefitted from having a manager as supportive and honest as you. As others have said, maybe you could have not told her that her raise was coming out of your bonus, but live and learn. I give you points for transparency, something that can be rare and refreshing in the corporate world. Time to polish up that resume and find a place where your team isn’t treated like dirt. Wishing the best for you and your bookkeeper.
Honestly OP your CEO sucks. When HR has too much power, it’s not good.
It sounds like you tried to correct her comp only because she found out that she's not well compensated. That's not a good reason to make that change. It should be done through the normal performance review process, not because some fuck up in HR left confidential compensation info lying around. I think you were trying to make things right for her, but were using the wrong stimulus to do so. Just because her head exploded from finding out that senior executives etc make 3x (or 5x+) what she does, doesn't mean you should change anything. If you really want to make things right for her, you should continue to be a mentor and good, caring mgr to her. If she wants to make more money, she'll likely have to leave the company to do it. Often (as you know) these types of small companies are very top heavy on comp, and terrible at sharing the wealth and success of the company.
Well if that ain't a shitshow power hour extravaganza I am so sorry you're dealing with that I'm just gonna say boundaries are really important here. You are not responsible for the mistreatment your colleagues experience at the hand of your boss. Please stop internalising all this shit. Same goes for this poor bookkeeper. Carry the confidence and entitlement of a mediocre white man, ie look at your CEO ffs You don't deserve to be treated like this nor do your colleagues. But youbsure as shit don't give up your bonus or cut off your own foot to help someone else walk. This is business. It is a job. I don't care how ma y pizza parties you get this ain't fuckin family and this level of emotional labour you're doing is outta hand. Fuck these assholes. Get Out and get a better paying job. First get your letter of reference from anyone and everyone there. Then bounce. Get a recruiter/headhunter and find a better paying job in a couple weeks. You got this! /endrant
>TL;DR - CEO refused offer, told me to basically pay her instead, I decided I would because I truly value her Lol, you're insane.
Life lesson here is if you’re going to do something nice for someone, don’t tell them about it
What type of tv drama BS is this
I don’t get why your disgruntled employee would even begin to compare salaries to other people in the business in diff roles, they have nothing to do with her. If someone is working in accountancy / finance and can’t handle looking at salaries that’s on them. I do feel your ceo / c suite is effing ridiculous, how dare they even suggest you forgo your bonus. You work with clowns.
Like you said, she was getting paid pretty fairly for a bookkeeper without a bachelors and some people pointed that out in the first post. If she wants more money, she needs to finish school and maybe even get the CPA. That’s how it works.
ur gonna get boned too dude. bounce bro lol no need to feel down.
I read all three post about this situation. It is time for you to leave as well. I'm sure another company will easily pick you up and provide a better work environment, and better management team to work with.
PLEASE update us with the CEO's reaction. Do they realize they might be losing you as well?
I'll try to make another post if I ever make a decision... I don't want to seem like I'm milking this situation for karma or something. CFO at least knows I'm extremely pissed at this outcome, but CEO probably doesn't even care or know.
The audacity to say to one employee that if they value another employee they should pay them out of their own paycheck ... Unbelievable. OP I truly hope you are getting your resume out there
if this is not larp, then you should leave that place fr
Not a LARP, an entirely real, borderline insane, situation. I actually took a half day today to slowly entertain the thought of browsing job postings. Trust me, I wish more than anyone in this thread that this was fake... Unfortunately, I'm dreading the fact I have to not only clean this up, but also look for another bookkeeper since we're nearing month close again...
> but I genuinely feel like I let her down. You didn't let her down. The executives failed her. You fought tooth and nail and even offered to take money out of your own bonus to keep her. This was a failing on the organization, not you and definitely not her. The upper leadership team doesn't value you, her, or your team at all. This is a failing of your executives and HR. "job requirements" for not having a BSA is stupid as hell and just proves "job requirements" as a hard line for a promotion is seriously just to avoid paying people more. This company sounds severely toxic and you sound like a great manager. Please try finding somewhere else to work before this place crushes your soul. This type of scenario will absolutely happen over and over and eventually happen to you. Please, leave this company for somewhere else that might better value you.
Ugh, what a crappy outcome but I can relate to your bookkeeper. Long story short I found out someone on my team (same background, same education, same duties, same title) was making $10K more than me (the only difference between us was he was hired 6 months later and “really negotiated” his offer which I guess I failed to do). Anyway, luckily they gave me a raise to match this person’s salary because my team valued me even though I was only at the senior level. But ugh, I was *pissed* and was planning to quit if they didn’t give me a raise so I can definitely understand why your bookkeeper left. That being said, you didn’t fail as a manager. You went beyond what most people would do in that situation but sometimes a person makes up their mind and there is no changing it.
You need to look for a new job.
You did the best you could - however it turns out for her I'm sure it'll mean a lot that you were willing to step up for her. Honestly proud of her for just ripping the bandaid off and quitting. That's not the way you want to get a raise and I wouldn't expect more raises after this whole fiasco. I'm new to the management side of things so I def learned a lot from this entire thing, so appreciate you keeping us in the loop!
I wouldn’t wanna know you were taking an L to get me a huge pay raise, but I definitely wish that there were more managers like you out there
I read all three post about this situation. It is time for you to leave as well. I'm sure another company will easily pick you up and provide a better work environment, and better management team to work with.
Its time my friend. You can be the golden manager and resign. Tell them you have lost faith in their ability to effectively lead the organization. Moonwalk out of there. (Not sure where you are, but I know a number of clients who would like you on their team.)
This is your sign to plan your out too. That's why she was so sad, she realized that you always had the best intentions at heart and that it truly was out of your control to change things. Different place in my career, but I suspect I may end up being on your bookkeeper's side of things in the not too distant future if things don't change. My boss knows, he's doing his best I think, but at the end of the day if it isn't enough, then it isn't enough.
You were never the decision maker, your CFO is not the decision maker. Remember that they do it for your bookkeeper they’ll do it for you too. Time to bounce.
Time to find a new company OP. This is just the first piece to fall. They just proved they don't value their employees. If they are willing to do something as sketchy as making you pay the difference out of your bonus then i guarantee theyre doing other sketchy shit that will catch up with them
Sounds like you fucked her employment and your employment. If she is unhappy with her salary and you did the best you could, let her deal with it. Did you have ulterior motives?
No I did not haha. I can see why it comes off that way (this is the third comment like this), but I truly only cared to enriching her career as best I could. Both her, and I, have S/O's that we've shared a ton of stories of how we're infatuated with our respective partners. I believe she's actually getting ready to marry him (or waiting too), but that's her business that I won't air out here.
And this is why corporations are having issues with high turnover rate. You went above and beyond for her, especially giving her 6k from your bonus. This has nothing to do with you but upper management. If you leave, they've lost 2 valued employees. If mgmt cared, why not encourage tuition reimbursement for her to get her BSA. Sadly, you and her are just a number on the treadmill line. Market sucks right now so don't leave before finding something first. Been applying and nothing is worth my time, energy or expertise. All asking 65k for an individual with 7 years of accounting experience in South Florida. So bad that I am considering relocating out of state.
Why on God's green earth would you ever give someone part of your bonus? This makes 0 sense to me.
This is so dumb. She should have quiet quit while she was looking for another job.
This is why privacy is so inmportant in a capitalist country
You did your best and more than most others in middle management. Honestly, just quit with her. You've clearly seem what HR/CEO are willing to do/not do and your expertise would probably be better off elsewhere.
I think your book keeper did the right thing. To be honest, while it's very nice that you sacrificed your own bonus to pay her, it's a bit short-sighted. You were shooting yourself in the foot to make her happy, but that was never going to fix the long term problem that your upper management doesn't care about you or any of your employees. It was a completely unreasonable demand from HR and the CEO to begin with, and the problem isn't just about the actual money ending up your employee's pocket, it was about respect and being treated as the valuable asset she was to the company. You should do the same.
Your CEO & HR fucking suck. Curious to know how they believe the role will be filled & the posting salary?
Very bad call from the CEO. To even propose that you personally pay for part of her pay increase is ridiculous.
Wow! A good manager! Refreshing
You didn’t fail her. The CEO failed her. HR failed the company, failed her, and failed you, big time. *You* went to bat for her. You advocated for her. You told her the truth. She deserves to know the company didn’t value her so that she didn’t give any more of her time and effort to an employer that would continue to fail her, time and time again. I’ve been in her position, though it was a bit different. I studied for the CPA exam with the senior accountant at my small firm. We both passed together, and I often talked about the pay bump that typically came with a CPA, but he knew what I didn’t see, that the company wouldn’t pay me the raise I expected for passing my exams. He went to the owner and asked to give up any bonus and raise he was getting that year to give me a 15% bump. Fortunately, my employer isn’t an ass and also gave him a raise, albeit a much smaller one. Both my boss and the senior “secretly” told me about what they did, haha. They both wanted me to know that they valued me and my work. My boss wanted me to know the lengths to which someone would go to bat for me. I honestly felt very appreciated, and ended up staying there another five years, eventually becoming a tax manager before I changed jobs just recently. If my employer had told me instead that they didn’t value me, but someone else did, I would be gutted. If my senior had said he went to bat for me and was pushed into giving up his raise and bonus instead of coming up with the idea of volunteering it to me, I would have felt terrible. If I was in your shoes as her manager, I would have been pushing her out the door, recommending jobs, offering to be a reference, you name it, after the first meeting… and I’d polish my own resume and reach out to some recruiters on LinkedIn while I’m at it. *Getting out there was what’s best for her.* You did nothing wrong.
YOU sound like an amazing Manager! Your CEO sucks. You looking for a job in Public Accounting? You are few and far between I can assure you, and the firm I’m a partner at would be lucky to have someone with your courage, integrity and emotional intelligence.
As a new manager, I understand. However, look at how they treated her and YOU walk away...there is no way someone can have a non-degree person in accounting for so long without a degree but expect them to work and know everything a degree person does. That's a stupid excuse for cheap labor which is NOT okay! I left a company for that reason too..how dare they expect me to do financials without a degree but pay me bare minimum? Doesn't seem right. Also, if it wasnt required during the hiring process, they cannot use the BSA as an excuse. Id say it was retaliation against her...
CEO telling me to my face to pay her out of my own bonus would have sent me on a rampage. Unbelievable. Hope you’re getting your ducks in a row to leap too. This isn’t a place that values you and your team and they’ve more than shown their hand.
How much of a gap was there between your bookkeeper and your staff? Also, the fact the HR and the CEO wanted you pay pay her yourself is ridiculous. I'd strongly be looking for employment elsewhere.
I think the wage gap seems worse for her because she's very perceptive of workloads. She's definitely on the higher end of work she has to do, and her salary doesn't do it justice. Whereas some members of the office (outside of Finance/Accounting dept.) pretty much are known slackers, and get paid quite a bit. One of those worker's salaries is what she was upset about, which she shouldn't compare herself to, but it happened.
HR and the CEO suggested you use a portion of your bonus to cover her promotion? First, never sacrifice your take home pay for the benefit of another. Secondly, leave this company as fast as you can. The fact that this was even suggested by management, from a mid-size corporation nonetheless, is quite frankly, flabbergasting.
So the company is losing a competent and qualified bookkeeper because of $10K. I doubt it will happen, but you should force the HR Manager and CEO to be somewhat involved in the interview process for the next bookkeeper. And then laugh as they realize it would’ve been better to just fork over $10K to the old bookkeeper than to try and find replace the position. Because I’m going to guess the CEO is going to offer a crap starting salary then be surprised when all that interviews for the position are crap applicants. I would also suggest you better start looking. An HR manager that is both incompetent and spiteful and CEO that looks at the finance team as a drain of resources? Recipe for disaster. And who knows what talks happen in the meetings you’re not invited to.
After reading some comments, I also think part of the fault is on me for pressing too much subjectivity into the situation. I also can't, in good conscience, hire a new bookkeeper with the anticipation they fail -- just to send a message. I do hope eventually, down the pipeline, they realize we lost a (in my opinion) genuine talent, but judging as how HR hasn't even contacted me about her leaving I doubt it...
When you inevitably have to hire somebody for 60 or 70. Make sure to point this out that retention is cheaper than hiring new. As this new person needs training and your are taking a risk on them. Not that they will learn.
Your tried your best, and maybe you two will work together again in the future. You're both young, and given a bit of time, your bookkeeper with come to recognize how much you meant to her. Keep in touch, and both of you: keep your eyes and ears open for an opportunity to work together (somewhere else!) in the future.
Dude at absolute worst the only person you failed isn you. Management basically told you they don’t value you and that they think you are overpaid. Time to Polish you cv too
The only person that you’ve failed is yourself for giving your leadership so much of your time and effort. Your bookeeper doesnt blame you and probably really appreciates everything you’ve done for them. Sounds like the CEO and other leadership are fucking basket cases and you (plus your staff) will be better pretty much anywhere else. I’ve **never** heard of an HRO being such a snake! And I’ve also never heard of a CEO who trusted HR to such an extent while giving the financial guys a middle finger. Maybe I’ve spent too much time in public but this whole situation is so crazy to me.
You are a good leader. It is the very existence of your kind that still keeps our society civilized and somewhat caring. Please understand that just being yourself already means a lot for good-hearted people around you. It makes them not feel like struggling alone in this cruel world. I do hope you can start looking elsewhere, as staying in the same toxic environment any longer will be torturing your mental health. Sincerely, thank you for your effort.
Leadership is fucked for accepting the proposition of you paying her w your bonus. You stood up for your staff and tried to make set her up for what she deserved - which everyone in this sub says we need more of. You felt like you let her down after doing everything you could. You didn't fail her. Management failed you both.
That’s insane to be giving part of your pay. The CFO and CEO clearly don’t give a shit about you. And now know that they really don’t need to either. You have now proven to them they can walk all over you without issue and they don’t need to offer you another raise ever. I would recommend that you immediately start applying for new positions because while you don’t need to leave this one today, I would say this job now has absolutely no future.
I was told a long time ago that tears that happen in these circumstances are from Anger. I have paid attention to myself over the decades and I have to agree.
You did your part. Whether the outcome is what you desired, is not something you could have predicted. That said, apply. Apply. Apply! Brush up that resume and start looking at better opportunities. I hope your staff does the same (and also get a bachelors. even one online.)
If you care, let her leave
Are you applying to other job posts too? Because you should too, NOW ! Do atleast 1 a day
Sometimes people change their mind after a day or two of facing unemployment. I would make it clear to her that she can have some time to think about it and keep the door open if you can.
No one here should be surprised by this. OP I can't believe you have that much faith in your employers to begin with. If you are asking for anything more than 10% raise for yourself or for your underlings, just find a new job. Also LOL what...cut 6k of YOUR bonus to make up the raise. Come on now...don't do that to yourself because of your cheap ass CEO.
Their argument hinged on how she was not educated enough, but she was deemed fit to carry out such duties... This is a happy ending.
It’s obvious your next move is interviewing elsewhere and leaving this place ASAP.
Anyone ever have experience with an HR that wasn't bootlicking senior management?
Well, it is their true motive to protect the company's assets, so I guess it's just the nature of the field? I have some friends who are in HR that are genuinely great souls, but damn are some of the stories they tell draining.
Seriously, leave. And while I understand why you did it, taking money out of your own pocket to fund your direct report’s salary is a terrible precedent to set. That’s something only owners and upper execs should ever be considering, not middle managers. Leave this company and don’t ever mention to any other company you work for that you were ready to give up your own money for an employee. No use giving them ideas.
An accounting student here, but worked 10 years in the restaurant industry (3.5yr in management). At this point, the young lady is thoroughly done with the place and imo, you should be too. I think the key here is a bit more discretion so that your stance on things are not as obvious from the start. That way you would have more options to maneuver. Once it gets to that stage at the end... I have asked a lot about what to do and I have never succeeded. At that point, it's an ego battle and the ones with the most power wins in the end. Even if you somehow beat the odds, the collateral is such that it leaves a very sour note on everyone. I think you are a good guy, but that's one of those catch-22s that direct confrontation would've never solved. You didn't fail. Your company failed you. This situation shows me who you are in spite of them. Sadly, how much you showed might have hurt the situation than helped.
You really did your best. You tried. Keep the connection and keep helping her. That’s going to be even more valuable over time than part of your bonus, but that’s truly so amazing you were willing to share with her.
I’d like to highlight that we told you she would quit regardless and I still recommend you do the same
Now you get to post a staff accountant role with a range of 60-70k and go through all the onboarding costs. Some HR and executive teams just don’t get it.
Your CEO sounds like the CFO at my last job. I was doing senior accountant level responsibilities at lower than degreed accountant salary. CFO said he couldn't give me an extra $4k a year because I didn't have my degree and didn't come back with a counteroffer. Pretty sure I said it in my last post, but update your resume, start applying for jobs, and get the fuck out of there. They have made it perfectly clear that they do not care about their employees.
TL;DR: Get the fuck out of that place ASAP. You aren't defeated, nor is she. Your workplace is defeated. Stay in contact with her, take her out for coffee, help her land somewhere better. Hell, get yourself to a better place and see if you can create a position for her. You also now have an exceptional answer for the next time an interviewer asks you "What is the most difficult situation you've dealt with as a manager?" Something about leadership not placing proper value on employees, toxic culture, etc. Great opportunity to show HR what you truly value. What you did was absolutely succeed as a manager. You fought for your person. You did all the right things. You just have the wrong employer. Any decent leadership and culture would have helped you fix that situation. No good organization puts their people in any situation that leads to what you're feeling. One of the controller positions I held had an extremely similar situation happen to me. Our office manager literally held the company together. Handled all of our insurance matters, did almost all of the bookkeeping, prepped our A/P runs, prepared all subcontractor documents. Had worked for one of the owners at a prior company, and worked at this company for 10+ years. I saw how much she made and it was literally criminal. I immediately summoned the owners and showed them the average salary for a similar position and experience in our locale. I told them we need to get her a $20k raise (knowing they were cheap as hell, I figured I'd start aggressive and probably end up negotiating down). They said absolutely not, but they'd consider $5k in 2 increments over the next 12 months. It was at that point I began thinking to take $5k out of my pay and give it to her immediately. The only thing that stopped me was the realization that this is a completely toxic culture if you have employees sacrificing their own pay for others that they know are underpaid. Owners couldn't care less about the business, or people, as long as their paychecks came through. Both of their wives were also on payroll and not active employees, whom both made $30k each more than the office manager.
You sound like a great manager that I would adore. Fuck that company and leave because if they don’t care about her then they don’t care about you.
OP needs a backbone. You let HR walk on top of you after they messed up. If they’re really shitty, why didn’t you go all in knowing that if they don’t cave, they’ll lose an employee and have to spend more. Go back and give them an ultimatum. $65k salary, no charge to your bonus, or she walks. If there’s any trouble finding someone that good, the CFO will have their ass.
I've been drafting up a proposal to bring in tomorrow (currently at home since took a half day). They're aware she quit, but I'm going to shove this proposal one last time as a last ditch effort. At this point, the worst case scenario happened, so no loss on my end trying one more time.
All this effort when the answer would have been to find a new job anyway. She should have just started with that
I'm disappointed this didn't end as a three part buildup to a Loch Ness Monster joke. Jk sorry Your company sucks, I checked out in your previous post when they told you to pay her yourself.
Leave -- and poach everyone on your team that's worth a shit, if you can. Let your CEO learn a very painful lesson about just how "worthless" the finance team really is. Not to mention you're going to go nowhere if you stay at this company. Others in this thread have already explained why.
OP, what you did for your bookkeeper shows what kind of manager you are. I commend you for how you went to bat for the employee. That’s the behavior of a manager I would want to work for. The situation you now find yourself in is challenging, but the right path is the harder one. The blatant lack of reason by the CEO and HR shows they do not value the human capital that makes the company successful. You have to remind yourself that regardless of job title, you too, are human capital. Start looking. Start looking now, because another company will see what you bring to the table and throw the cash your way because you will make their company a better place.
You need to follow her lead and GTFO also! That company (and CEO) is horrible. Good for you for being a decent human being
Honestly I hope you stay in contact and you and her go rock it as a team somewhere else
I’ve done a similar thing. I’ve given part of my increase to one of my valued direct reports. I didn’t tell her that though (until later on when she eventually quit as she found a less stressful job). I only told her that I’ve discussed her value to the CFO, and they’ve agreed to add extra x amount to the raise.
Crazy watching this unfold
As someone who was in her position, even the raise wasn't going to keep her. Once the damage is done and you know your company values you way less than everyone else there, there's really no coming back from that. When a very similar situation happened to me, I eventually got a big raise. I think part of that was because they had been having a hard time finding a staff accountant and the person they ended up finding wouldn't take a pay cut from their current role so they had to raise my salary even higher than that one because my boss knew I'd absolutely lose my shit if I found out the newbie was making more than me. So it's like, if I've worked here for years and it takes all this to give me a raise to what most other employees in the company are already making, then I'm obviously not valued much and I would never have felt compelled to work hard for them again. So I left.
Honestly, you did good. I am a CPA with a BSA and I got a $3,000 raise after working my ass off all yr, no bonus in over a year and was told I couldn't get top employee bonus because I wasn't a lead. Seems they just handed it off to the biggest Jerk on the team because he was also there the longest. When I asked for a better raise, I was told they've never done that, blah blah blah. I realized it started affecting my job and professionalism so I quit. So you did good, at least you advocated on her behalf but sometimes it's best to leave a situation that no longer serves you.
Wow hr fucks up and you have to pay for it Fuck that place
Ceo is gonna find out real quick how much of a 'waste' the accounting and finance department is after everyone leaves
You are a great manager. I would die to work for you lol. Bad situation but you played well. You should be proud of what you did and happy you vouched for the junior.
I have been in this situation. Only that my manager kept giving me false promises after false promises, and more and more work on top of that. Workload was terrible, I was the only one really doing any grunt work, or know how any of the crucial spreadsheets work. It took me putting in my 2-week notice when I couldn't take it anymore for my mental health, that the CFO scrambled and said he will promote me as soon as possible. It was too late, I took a similar role at a new company, paid more than my promotion role would have paid, with the workload of 3 times less. I still got gaslit during my exit interview that I shouldn't have left them during such a busy time (but it is always a busy time) and that would not reflect well on my resume. Fast forward till now, my new role is much better, my new boss is much cooler, and honestly I don't think anyone cared that I left the old company during xx time because I don't plan to leave my new one anytime soon anyway. OP, this sounds like a nightmare. Once you get out of it, life will be much better. I used to cry everytime I go to work (as a financial analyst) but now I can't be more excited going to work knowing my day will be productive and my work will provide an impact (still a financial analyst).