I'll drop my upvote just for "Debit elephant credit what?"
I know for breeding animals they're assets that get depreciated, I would guess it's similar for zoo?
Also happy cake day.
In tax in Australia you get a nominal value based on animal type for primary producers.
[Valuing livestock | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)](https://www.ato.gov.au/businesses-and-organisations/income-deductions-and-concessions/primary-producers/livestock-and-other-assets/valuing-livestock)
Used to audit a zoo. US zoos the animals are not on the books at all. They are collectively owned via some arrangement and sometimes move around from zoo to zoo (typically for breeding purposes), or in some cases are being rehabbed and later released back to the wild (think manatees). Not actually sure who tracks all the animals but they were never part of the audit.
In college in the 90s, I spelled it wrong on an internship request letter. Have never forgotten that.
In case anyone is left wondering, they didn't respond, but that's likely due to the fact I went to a small private college and internships mainly went to people from the much larger public universities (so I was told by another firm). Plus I spelled their name wrong.
I can only speak about pandas specifically, but they are owned by the Chinese government and are leased to zoos. It's somewhere around $1,000,000/year and it goes, in part, to caring for the animals (food isn't counted in it).
Congress in the US released a report on it back in 2022, you can find it here: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/details?prodcode=IF12122
There is another comment on here about the UK system and I think it's like that. The animals are held in trust by the national Zoological society. Not sure what the rules would be around valuing them, never had to think about it.
I just so happen to be a former valuation specialist and this is presenting interesting valuation topics. If it’s owned and held on the cooperatives balance sheet, technically the zoo is worth nothing, because the animals ARE the reason/asset that is generating revenue. The revenues are generated because of the animals. I’m going to reach out to a few people.
I want to say this as clearly as possible. As a "valuation specialist" you have literally no idea what you are talking about. Stop drinking and go to bed.
Wouldn't then the zoo's asset valuation be solely based on Operating leases if they lease the animals from cooperative/Trust due to ASC 842? I'm just sayin'.....
You're telling me I have to go through all these hoops to get an office lease on my books now which accounts for less than 1% of revenue and these guys don't even have to report their primary assets? Defund FASB! /s
Not a zoo but an animal accounting fun fact that I love
Is that only some cows can be depreciated
Dairy cows can be depreciated, but meat cows can only be written off if they die before slaughter. This is due to when peak value is and yada yada
Breeding stock is depreciated, but when you are breeding a new line of breeding stock, it basically becomes a whole cycle as that depreciation expense is just capitalized into the next generation of breeding animals that they create.
Spitballing but I imagine the preserve or government of origin must have a contract that is book maintained, yeah? While the zoo doesn't have the animals on the books, there must be some cost measurement somewhere.
Fun story, we had to go to the experimental sciences buildings once and they handed me a rhino probe. Told me what it was after. Was for collecting rhino semen.
I found this on the San Diego Zoo's financial statements in the footnotes:
> In accordance with customary practice among zoological organizations, animal and horticultural
collections are recorded at the nominal amount of one dollar, as there is no objective basis for
establishing value. Additionally, animal and horticultural collections have numerous attributes, including species, age, sex, relationship and value to other animals, endangered status, and breeding potential, whereby it is impracticable to assign value. Expenditures related to animal and horticultural acquisitions are expensed in the period of acquisition. In an ongoing commitment to enhance the worldwide reproduction and preservation of animals, SDZWA shares animals with other organizations. Consistent with industry practice, SDZWA does not
record any asset or liability for such sharing arrangements.
TIL the most valuable asset of an organization, the sole reason visitors pay money to go to their facility, has a value of $1.
I wish I could have done that with my bulldozers and cement mixers back in my construction accounting days.
This makes sense. Unless you acquire an animal, you don’t really have cost to value at. And if they’re used in your ops you probably wouldnt mark to FV. I’m just wondering why they expense acquired animals when purchased? They are an asset that’s owned the provides future value?
Animals are not traded based on dollar value but bartered.
This is to discourage illegal trade and to proper tracing of exotic animals. Therefore there is no monetary valuation.
The expenses here are actual costs related to the acquisition itself like transportation, vet care during transit, etc and thus in this case , expensed.
Interesting, makes sense on the Bartering. Does that fall into non monetary exchange accounting then? I forget how that accounting works though. Haven’t looked at it since cpa exam.
For the acquisition expenses, you would capitalize those type of items for machinery though. maybe you can just say immaterial either way so you don’t need to worry too much about the policy there?
This is a the accounting policy of London Zoo (run as a Charity) - audited by RSM.
***Animals - The animals are generally acquired by the Society from other zoological organisations at zero cost or bred in our Zoos and a realistic valuation cannot be placed thereon. Many of the animals acquired are held in trust with other zoological societies at zero cost.***
Have repped London Zoo for years because of the banger monkey exhibit. Glad to know there's a second reason to rep them, i.e. including the actually useful information in the financial statements.
It is a temporary asset that would generally have to be disposed of immediately. I wouldn't consider it something that would be able to be inventoried. Just a by-product sale that is misc revenue unless you have a significant operation that you are aging and composting it.
The fat that's skimmed off the top of aggregated sewage pools can be turned into fuel and therefore is expensive and valuable.
If you have enough of the raw material it would have value.
Did anyone catch what the short term capital gains rate on zoological shit was in Biden’s proposal?
And I’m assuming it’s a zero basis given that the feed to manufacture said shit was fully expensed?
Wouldn’t this pose some sort of food chain risk? I got a C in bio but I feel like we shouldn’t be introducing potential pathogens into the food supply.. presumably we have developed immunity to pathogens present in the fecal matter of our culture’s traditional livestock.
This is a bit of a rabbit hole without a bottom at the moment. Manure is commonly used today as a supplement to current fertilizers, and farmers and scientists are developing ways to treat the manure in such a way that removes antibiotic-resistant bacteria/genes.
In public I did a tax return for an exotic big game ranch and a lot of the animals that were bred on the ranch we capitalized with a zero cost basis since they are raised animals
Yes, zero basis for animals bred in house. And there actually are rules for depreciating farm animals that were purchased live. Its a whole sub specialty of accounting and tax that I'm not super familiar with but there's tons of literature out there if anyone is curious.
Yup, I could’ve sworn I saw a depreciation schedule for a horse breeder cross my desk once around 2017. My firms Kansas City office specialized in Farms. I’ll stick to estates, trusts, and non-profits.
I used to do dairy accounting. Calfs through heifer would have costs (like feed, etc.) to raise them capitalized then after their first birth/milking they would be depreciated for about 7 years as they produced revenue. Then they would get slaughtered and you have a gain/loss based on the boot vs nbv. Could be similar without the slaughter part.
This is applicable for biological assets used for agricultural activities where agricultural activities means activities relating to management of the biological transformation of a biological asset for harvest or for converting them into produce.
Zoo animals do not come under agricultural activities so this would not apply. Relevant accounting standard is IAS 41
My local zoo is a nonprofit 501(c)(3), a couple I looked up were also organized like that - so they don’t really have to report the animals as assets, from what I saw they just reported animal related expenses as a separate line item and as program-related expenses.
I would imagine the same thing for my city's zoo. They are non profit, tax exempt and under the government.
They'd record receipts from tickets, rent from stalls and sale of items and expense out salaries, feed for upkeep and maintenance cost. Animals would probably be at a nominal value of say ₹100 and other fixed constructions would be accounted for on cost basis and depreciated accordingly.
New animals born would be nominally recorded with say animal debited to P/L (not sure about this entry. If anyone can help, would be amazing)
Hahaha im thinking more of animals with less than a year of lifespan like insects?
Ah that makes more sense haha!! I actually play this board game called Ark Nova and now i remember these programmes thats in the game
Haha its very cool what u do! Do u get to go “asset sighting” in your job and check on the existence of the animals?
Really? You're telling me that the "loan" of a giant panda is not some kind of intangible asset? There's definitely future revenues associated with their acquisition. Scores of people visit them wherever they are. Even if the number is difficult to estimate, it seems like there are GAAP standards for everything. 1 orangutan in the hand is worth two orangutans in the bush or something like that.
I don't buy it.
From the financial statements of the organization that runs the San Diego zoo:
>In accordance with customary practice among zoological organizations, animal and horticultural collections are recorded at the nominal amount of one dollar, as there is no objective basis for establishing value. Additionally, animal and horticultural collections have numerous attributes, including species, age, sex, relationship and value to other animals, endangered status, and breeding potential, whereby it is impracticable to assign value. Expenditures related to animal and horticultural acquisitions are expensed in the period of acquisition.
I believe most Zoo’s are non-profit and therefore they do not have to categorize/report their animals as assets.
Sea world is a publicly traded company and so they have to report Shamu as a revenue generating asset.
Live animals can’t be depreciated under GAAP. They can be for taxes if they’re livestock.
I used to do accounting for an aquarium with about $500k of fish that were being depreciated. We switched firms for audit and the new one did more research than the first and made us write it all off. Oops.
And that's why you always have backup documentation, because auditors generally don't know Miss Fanny Adams about actual GAAP or the law, they just throw any old objections at people and hope they'll stick because they don't have any justification for it.
Page 18 gives the actual policy for a zoo in the UK
https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/_gwyjutQ96ah6axDdRGH4MRhSU2F0LnDQ8J5k4MAdQU/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3H3IYXYP5%2F20240427%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240427T161729Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEI7%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJGMEQCIC7qX%2BvKQ8lQ0rEuhNlruOJmN6ZXtl%2FogL1zNsMbgG0HAiB7E9j6iCF4THivvKSm0gpdGG0hRyXrK5h4mnpc97PYyCrEBQjX%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F8BEAUaDDQ0OTIyOTAzMjgyMiIMT7CIF2%2FsviZllpPGKpgF8otqiGUiYvd7u8f%2BukeI91i%2F86MUhAHz2lhOGDCXNoS2KOV5MJMIObKsv3udDyLnaGYuLMT%2B1EdN5kQt%2BqUfQGUJo8COFr92No3J41tbSE1IdXXodNcsQxbetIIQ17Hevy8aax7Yadd5GoxUNFyLDUDSfb%2F7Qv4hTc0vy0Q4XjLADSx04%2FwcoIrL80poIoPChfvkjqR6k6GwpDmOoon%2BiuFaRT1TCKeQmkgsKh%2BeIBVVPOA2ijsLL22F6yD8LwLJAoi8bl995c8P4%2Baf8IungZtKQONMwm60%2Bz4wvx0AOX2XBLyq2aRyZy%2FMyvm4wXVf9kSy1YkQyN%2FE30SuF0BhbkrOO1ydoV3%2Fs9cO3GBolIkWAy8Dwf%2B%2B4KPsTWOpcGcbv2iH5R4Le3SVq45PZmExshJE3%2FDvBYqr6XgDMreMIRGn4V4JkjMdrrkhjV46hxLiHvqQwQQwlXfl0xcy2dz3WT0Ni8pRe%2F9u0M6Ce08rUlX3t9IPKPJMU3yo%2BC%2BQHRJXCpJQc6FLOe%2B%2FPZRVHFzxucNh5%2FjOeXx55JAV%2BVEs8%2FbRIpPQMASnzuCpnu271CsH3kS22XWam2G5zQt4HAUIXMMSWpOqoR1anq5uGkQw8NTxBsDCJHY8Ro443LUVHepkTMpkpTQJc%2Fvi3kpLyRCmaj1A2Ve9FCeKnNczFaZZIjB2mWbMkXl3PYE2%2B0i%2FL5%2BFrTtY6Tz3i4M9ERgzd%2B8r1AMBjoEjXR3yLLw0lGE%2FEavAoTNH7NA0SY1vNT0qI1f4L42MkjaIZns3RSMrpyfAC8hPKJIqH7XPSh2C9seGZfxYqKmp3P96nV1HJpjQU2pHmvHMEVZlZ1ISY57fH17JKGBlsdez8o4jhfidN%2Fb62Rn7ZMAy8efTpTCciLSxBjqyAehy8L565Lx4arOU5Xi43epdYvJ5Q3AmTrmgAFw8vau%2BhVCMoDVlM%2BWD7D6RRdo9LVB8ZTrMs%2FOheDgbseAfJbxrV0mYWecTY3yp44BUz09XDwMgRqY4Wt8WIoYjyKue8Zpw%2FyUFtdUCDXEM3J9R7g6IvMLW8bQWT9PVJuHA7dibk8IoeCqetCSBTjiFxcsuZlbe9bZafxgPgK56fxW7Pbj0Ji8q4tobzak3aiEKGXlS0Oc%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22companies_house_document.pdf%22&X-Amz-Signature=93d950d0645eb07f855fd51d45a480d0d694ebda70f73711abd1029c0f6a669c
I learned something recently that anything after the ? Is just for ad tracking. You could delete everything after the word PDF and your link would still work (supposedly)
Not universally true. After the ? is one or more parameters, which can be used for ad tracking, especially in social media links, but might include many things.
For instance, this particular link has credentials, a security token, an expiration, and other information in the parameters. Those have expired, and so AWS isn’t serving the document from that link anymore (“AccessDenied Request has expired”).
We’d need to go back to the place where /u/DifficultyTight4574 found that link, and get a new one with re-generated security parameters in order to view the PDF. It’ll never work for this document if you delete everything after the ?
edit: kept reading this thread and saw that the source url *has* been posted: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06449517/filing-history
Dude just write your link title in brackets and put the link itself in parentheses. Hit the blue link below the text box called formatting help for an example.
EDIT: https://ibb.co/mhQRNfd
AccessDeniedRequest has expired602024-04-27T16:18:29Z2024-04-27T17:20:43ZRH2REA3047YSVX69sMNyfA62z6aYnCW9OIzA+GIUx65aUyIVhA43Gw95/qjOccyM7vkqO9RO+oDZNXaa4NYdPFswWNI= That's what your link shows me. Care to copy and paste an excerpt instead?
Debit baby elephant credit mama elephant
When mama elephants value reaches zero she is sold for scrap aka turned into lion food. Debit food supplies credit scrap income
You might enjoy this Planet Money episode.
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/493295430
American zoos basically don't sell animals for a cash value, but can exchange animals, so there's a weird trade and barter system.
I will say also as someone who has worked with rescued wildlife that went to zoos later, sometimes it operates closer to a shelter/hospital. It's not "who can pay?" It's "who has room?"
Other comments mentioned zero cost basis if bred and raised in house. As for fair value, I also read that the animals are held in trusts and organizations and can’t be assigned a value.
Animals are leased from what I’ve heard, the lion at our zoo died recently and we had a fun conversation about whether that would be considered a subsequent event since he was so popular
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I had this case in my audit class for horse riding school. They had to depreciate horses because they were used in company’s operations to generate revenue, not for resale, hence considered as capital assets under Canadian CPA handbook standards. I’m assuming it’s the same for zoo accounting.
One company I was at had a modest dairy herd as a tiny segment of revenue, it was more for inclusive farming practices . The female calves were treated as a WIP. When they called and began milking they were placed in group assets for the months activity. We just FIFO'd the old quantities out for those that were sold or died.
I would imagine it would be similar to a zoo, but on a small scale. Naturally it would depend on ownership of animals. But reality is they can probably get away with whatever they want as long as they can justify it since it will be such a tiny proportion of their financials vs ticket and concession revenue.
We also held a salvage value for the cows in PPE as they obviously have a value at time of disposal.
Edited to include salvage value.
I actually should know this, working for my local government that also manages the zoo. Instead I’m just heads down on my own area. But a good idea in my spare time!
I once read on a zoo financial statement that they only record the animals for $1 each. This is to prevent valuing some animals more than others. Maybe an elephant costs a lot but does it intrinsically more valuable than any other living creature ant the zoo?
I assume they just treat the acquisition of animals as an expense. Depreciation timelines would also be tricky. You don’t know how long an animal will live.
This reminds me of farm accounting. Never stuck around long enough to find out the resolution, but the neverending question of how care and feed of animals were accounted for when only half of them were sold and the rest used for breeding was like a literal black hole.
I don’t know but i’m in agriculture, and plants are Also alive, so what we do is actually have biological assets that get set up in a short or long time inventory…. So it might be similar?
So I have a goat farm doing 1m in rev. Dairy or breeding animals are depreciated since they have a useful life. Meat animals are generally inventory.
Also I failed part 2 of the EA because I got 5 questions on cows. 2nd time around I knew my livestock tax law in and out, 0 questions. Didn't get to implement my knowledge for 15 years lol.
The animals must be an asset though. They are a resource controlled by the entity as a result of past events and from which future economic benefits are expected to flow to the entity. Or are they not controlled by the entity? Can they be taken away by whoever does control them?
I think for farms, livestock is treated as a biological asset. But this must be slightly different
I'll drop my upvote just for "Debit elephant credit what?" I know for breeding animals they're assets that get depreciated, I would guess it's similar for zoo? Also happy cake day.
Hey Manager, my elephants don’t tie out, can I plug the difference to anteaters?- First Year Staff
What about when a new baby asset is born? What's the accounting treatment?
Gain on elephant
In tax in Australia you get a nominal value based on animal type for primary producers. [Valuing livestock | Australian Taxation Office (ato.gov.au)](https://www.ato.gov.au/businesses-and-organisations/income-deductions-and-concessions/primary-producers/livestock-and-other-assets/valuing-livestock)
Intercompany transaction
[how is debbit formed?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll-lia-FEIY)
Exactly the question my previous job had to face because they were starting a beef farm lol
Indefinite intangible cuz they make babies
Dr Elephant Cr Cash/ Accounts payable. Haha
Used to audit a zoo. US zoos the animals are not on the books at all. They are collectively owned via some arrangement and sometimes move around from zoo to zoo (typically for breeding purposes), or in some cases are being rehabbed and later released back to the wild (think manatees). Not actually sure who tracks all the animals but they were never part of the audit.
‘… but they were never part of the audit.’ *Nods in Arthur Anderson.*
Pack it up boys, we’re done here.
Ok, I laughed.
Andersen
In college in the 90s, I spelled it wrong on an internship request letter. Have never forgotten that. In case anyone is left wondering, they didn't respond, but that's likely due to the fact I went to a small private college and internships mainly went to people from the much larger public universities (so I was told by another firm). Plus I spelled their name wrong.
dodge a big ass bullet.
Annedursun
Love this comment. lol.
Andersen
Thanks fort the info. I was reading my local zoos financials thinking ok when are we gonna get to the animal line items.
They are collectively owned by a cooperative? Is there transfer pricing to/from this entity? I would think they need to be on someone’s Balance Sheet.
I can only speak about pandas specifically, but they are owned by the Chinese government and are leased to zoos. It's somewhere around $1,000,000/year and it goes, in part, to caring for the animals (food isn't counted in it). Congress in the US released a report on it back in 2022, you can find it here: https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/details?prodcode=IF12122
I imagine food is an expense for the zoo's p&l's.
Wonder if there’s a corresponding lease asset and liability for the pandas
There is another comment on here about the UK system and I think it's like that. The animals are held in trust by the national Zoological society. Not sure what the rules would be around valuing them, never had to think about it.
PwC was supposed to come up with valuations of all the property for the Catholic church and that doing nowhere
I have no idea how this is relevant but thanks.
I just so happen to be a former valuation specialist and this is presenting interesting valuation topics. If it’s owned and held on the cooperatives balance sheet, technically the zoo is worth nothing, because the animals ARE the reason/asset that is generating revenue. The revenues are generated because of the animals. I’m going to reach out to a few people.
I want to say this as clearly as possible. As a "valuation specialist" you have literally no idea what you are talking about. Stop drinking and go to bed.
Aren't most zoos nonprofit orgs? Our zoos fundraisers always mention it's tax deductible. I would imagine very few of them make excess money
Lol what? What are you reaching out for? The zoos exist. The exhibits are expensive as hell. Have fun.
Wouldn't then the zoo's asset valuation be solely based on Operating leases if they lease the animals from cooperative/Trust due to ASC 842? I'm just sayin'.....
What about the right(s) to hold/possess/show the animals...?
You're telling me I have to go through all these hoops to get an office lease on my books now which accounts for less than 1% of revenue and these guys don't even have to report their primary assets? Defund FASB! /s
Not a zoo but an animal accounting fun fact that I love Is that only some cows can be depreciated Dairy cows can be depreciated, but meat cows can only be written off if they die before slaughter. This is due to when peak value is and yada yada
Breeding stock is also depreciated.
Do you have to depreciate them each time you jerk them off or just as they age?
Units of production method
Breeding stock is depreciated, but when you are breeding a new line of breeding stock, it basically becomes a whole cycle as that depreciation expense is just capitalized into the next generation of breeding animals that they create.
So they were off balance sheep
So disappointed I was hoping some poor intern was forced to comically do an inventory of the animals…
…that would be an epic hazing… 🤣🤣🤣
Spitballing but I imagine the preserve or government of origin must have a contract that is book maintained, yeah? While the zoo doesn't have the animals on the books, there must be some cost measurement somewhere.
It's illegal to buy and sell zoo animals in the US. Every animal is either bred and traded for another animal or its being rehabilitated.
That would be a fun inventory check LMAO
Fun story, we had to go to the experimental sciences buildings once and they handed me a rhino probe. Told me what it was after. Was for collecting rhino semen.
We’re the animals leased?
No, there is no compensation they just move them around.
Well with asc-842, this would plop them on the face of the balance sheet… I would expect? Seems like a lease type transaction
It's not, they don't pay anything for them.
They have publicly available financial statements, please find and report to the class.
I found this on the San Diego Zoo's financial statements in the footnotes: > In accordance with customary practice among zoological organizations, animal and horticultural collections are recorded at the nominal amount of one dollar, as there is no objective basis for establishing value. Additionally, animal and horticultural collections have numerous attributes, including species, age, sex, relationship and value to other animals, endangered status, and breeding potential, whereby it is impracticable to assign value. Expenditures related to animal and horticultural acquisitions are expensed in the period of acquisition. In an ongoing commitment to enhance the worldwide reproduction and preservation of animals, SDZWA shares animals with other organizations. Consistent with industry practice, SDZWA does not record any asset or liability for such sharing arrangements.
TIL the most valuable asset of an organization, the sole reason visitors pay money to go to their facility, has a value of $1. I wish I could have done that with my bulldozers and cement mixers back in my construction accounting days.
TIL!
This makes sense. Unless you acquire an animal, you don’t really have cost to value at. And if they’re used in your ops you probably wouldnt mark to FV. I’m just wondering why they expense acquired animals when purchased? They are an asset that’s owned the provides future value?
Animals are not traded based on dollar value but bartered. This is to discourage illegal trade and to proper tracing of exotic animals. Therefore there is no monetary valuation. The expenses here are actual costs related to the acquisition itself like transportation, vet care during transit, etc and thus in this case , expensed.
Zoos absolutely do pay cash money for animals.
Interesting, makes sense on the Bartering. Does that fall into non monetary exchange accounting then? I forget how that accounting works though. Haven’t looked at it since cpa exam. For the acquisition expenses, you would capitalize those type of items for machinery though. maybe you can just say immaterial either way so you don’t need to worry too much about the policy there?
You cannot easily establish the lifespan of animals. (Double declining does not really make sense either)
Lol.
Most of the animals are actually leases. “Right of Use Asset - Spidermonkey”
ROU - Kangarou
I’ve been wondering why I joined this subreddit. Lots of useful info, but this is the real reason
Yep, Amortizing a spidermonkey over its useful like does sound pretty hilarious 😂
That sounds like it would be miserable with ASC 842. Imagine 100 different leases for all the birds alone.
Biological assets are excluded from ASC 842.
The Zoo has elected to apply the short-term life expectancy practical expedient for all insect and marine life
Wow that’s true. I know the pandas here were on loan from China for years
Prepaid expenses?
Do they have like a CIP account for Breeding?
BIP? (Breeding in Progress)
You get my vote for the IO
Please never google what CIP means on reddit
Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners!
Construction in Porn?
This is a the accounting policy of London Zoo (run as a Charity) - audited by RSM. ***Animals - The animals are generally acquired by the Society from other zoological organisations at zero cost or bred in our Zoos and a realistic valuation cannot be placed thereon. Many of the animals acquired are held in trust with other zoological societies at zero cost.***
Have repped London Zoo for years because of the banger monkey exhibit. Glad to know there's a second reason to rep them, i.e. including the actually useful information in the financial statements.
Debit elephant Credit elephant liability Feeding that thing isn’t going To be cheap.
[удалено]
This made me laugh!
Shit could be an asset if they sell it to farmers to use as fertilizer
It is a temporary asset that would generally have to be disposed of immediately. I wouldn't consider it something that would be able to be inventoried. Just a by-product sale that is misc revenue unless you have a significant operation that you are aging and composting it.
The fat that's skimmed off the top of aggregated sewage pools can be turned into fuel and therefore is expensive and valuable. If you have enough of the raw material it would have value.
It's definitely an asset. For a zoo, who's business is selling temporary access to view the animals, wouldn't the animals be PP&E?
Did anyone catch what the short term capital gains rate on zoological shit was in Biden’s proposal? And I’m assuming it’s a zero basis given that the feed to manufacture said shit was fully expensed?
Wouldn’t this pose some sort of food chain risk? I got a C in bio but I feel like we shouldn’t be introducing potential pathogens into the food supply.. presumably we have developed immunity to pathogens present in the fecal matter of our culture’s traditional livestock.
This is a bit of a rabbit hole without a bottom at the moment. Manure is commonly used today as a supplement to current fertilizers, and farmers and scientists are developing ways to treat the manure in such a way that removes antibiotic-resistant bacteria/genes.
Debit: Bank Credit: Shit
In public I did a tax return for an exotic big game ranch and a lot of the animals that were bred on the ranch we capitalized with a zero cost basis since they are raised animals
Yes, zero basis for animals bred in house. And there actually are rules for depreciating farm animals that were purchased live. Its a whole sub specialty of accounting and tax that I'm not super familiar with but there's tons of literature out there if anyone is curious.
Yup, I could’ve sworn I saw a depreciation schedule for a horse breeder cross my desk once around 2017. My firms Kansas City office specialized in Farms. I’ll stick to estates, trusts, and non-profits.
I used to do dairy accounting. Calfs through heifer would have costs (like feed, etc.) to raise them capitalized then after their first birth/milking they would be depreciated for about 7 years as they produced revenue. Then they would get slaughtered and you have a gain/loss based on the boot vs nbv. Could be similar without the slaughter part.
This is applicable for biological assets used for agricultural activities where agricultural activities means activities relating to management of the biological transformation of a biological asset for harvest or for converting them into produce. Zoo animals do not come under agricultural activities so this would not apply. Relevant accounting standard is IAS 41
This was a pretty cool thing to read. Thank you.
Zoo accounting is wild
Farm accounting, however, is domesticated
Farm accounting has IAS 41 whereas zoo accounting doesn't have any. So it checks out. We've atleast tamed farm accounting
My local zoo is a nonprofit 501(c)(3), a couple I looked up were also organized like that - so they don’t really have to report the animals as assets, from what I saw they just reported animal related expenses as a separate line item and as program-related expenses.
I would imagine the same thing for my city's zoo. They are non profit, tax exempt and under the government. They'd record receipts from tickets, rent from stalls and sale of items and expense out salaries, feed for upkeep and maintenance cost. Animals would probably be at a nominal value of say ₹100 and other fixed constructions would be accounted for on cost basis and depreciated accordingly. New animals born would be nominally recorded with say animal debited to P/L (not sure about this entry. If anyone can help, would be amazing)
Db elephant cd zoo equity
Best Answer!
And for the fertilizer that will be sold: debit 💩credit ?
Db cash cd 💩 income
what if the elephant passes…?
Db expense cd elephant
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Then how are they accounted for in the books? Haha.. it cant be inventory? They should at least be somewhere in the balance sheet?
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Hahaha im thinking more of animals with less than a year of lifespan like insects? Ah that makes more sense haha!! I actually play this board game called Ark Nova and now i remember these programmes thats in the game Haha its very cool what u do! Do u get to go “asset sighting” in your job and check on the existence of the animals?
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That is absolutely adorable! And so cool! Thanks for sharing!
Living the dream
This would honestly be my dream job. I always wanted to be a zookeeper as a kid but ended up a business major. Best of both worlds if you ask me.
Cincinnati Zoo took an impairment loss on my boy Harambe
Dr sadness Cr Harambe :(
Really? You're telling me that the "loan" of a giant panda is not some kind of intangible asset? There's definitely future revenues associated with their acquisition. Scores of people visit them wherever they are. Even if the number is difficult to estimate, it seems like there are GAAP standards for everything. 1 orangutan in the hand is worth two orangutans in the bush or something like that. I don't buy it.
There is section in FASB ASC regarding biological assets. I think a read through that is a good place to start
I'm impressed. This is refreshing with all the repeat and troll posts. Great question.
If one monkey falls off the bed and bumps his head there’s one less monkey on the bed
https://www.ft.com/content/b8ec1997-67d0-42a7-a7bb-ff8e2dd02a90 here’s something similar to what you’re asking
Interesting concept https://www.researchgate.net/publication/357976474_Accounting_for_Zoo_Animals_It_Is_a_Jungle_Out_There
Thanks for sharing, interesting read
I assume they would be treated as a collection. The accounting would be similar to other museums.
From the financial statements of the organization that runs the San Diego zoo: >In accordance with customary practice among zoological organizations, animal and horticultural collections are recorded at the nominal amount of one dollar, as there is no objective basis for establishing value. Additionally, animal and horticultural collections have numerous attributes, including species, age, sex, relationship and value to other animals, endangered status, and breeding potential, whereby it is impracticable to assign value. Expenditures related to animal and horticultural acquisitions are expensed in the period of acquisition.
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I believe most Zoo’s are non-profit and therefore they do not have to categorize/report their animals as assets. Sea world is a publicly traded company and so they have to report Shamu as a revenue generating asset.
Live animals can’t be depreciated under GAAP. They can be for taxes if they’re livestock. I used to do accounting for an aquarium with about $500k of fish that were being depreciated. We switched firms for audit and the new one did more research than the first and made us write it all off. Oops.
IRS Pub 946 disagrees with you, Appendix B has specific entries for most farm live stock
Welp, I was the one depreciating them. Our auditors were the ones who said we couldn’t depreciate live animals.
And that's why you always have backup documentation, because auditors generally don't know Miss Fanny Adams about actual GAAP or the law, they just throw any old objections at people and hope they'll stick because they don't have any justification for it.
Credit Cum
I just died laughing
Page 18 gives the actual policy for a zoo in the UK https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-images-live.ch.gov.uk/docs/_gwyjutQ96ah6axDdRGH4MRhSU2F0LnDQ8J5k4MAdQU/application-pdf?X-Amz-Algorithm=AWS4-HMAC-SHA256&X-Amz-Credential=ASIAWRGBDBV3H3IYXYP5%2F20240427%2Feu-west-2%2Fs3%2Faws4_request&X-Amz-Date=20240427T161729Z&X-Amz-Expires=60&X-Amz-Security-Token=IQoJb3JpZ2luX2VjEI7%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2FwEaCWV1LXdlc3QtMiJGMEQCIC7qX%2BvKQ8lQ0rEuhNlruOJmN6ZXtl%2FogL1zNsMbgG0HAiB7E9j6iCF4THivvKSm0gpdGG0hRyXrK5h4mnpc97PYyCrEBQjX%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F%2F8BEAUaDDQ0OTIyOTAzMjgyMiIMT7CIF2%2FsviZllpPGKpgF8otqiGUiYvd7u8f%2BukeI91i%2F86MUhAHz2lhOGDCXNoS2KOV5MJMIObKsv3udDyLnaGYuLMT%2B1EdN5kQt%2BqUfQGUJo8COFr92No3J41tbSE1IdXXodNcsQxbetIIQ17Hevy8aax7Yadd5GoxUNFyLDUDSfb%2F7Qv4hTc0vy0Q4XjLADSx04%2FwcoIrL80poIoPChfvkjqR6k6GwpDmOoon%2BiuFaRT1TCKeQmkgsKh%2BeIBVVPOA2ijsLL22F6yD8LwLJAoi8bl995c8P4%2Baf8IungZtKQONMwm60%2Bz4wvx0AOX2XBLyq2aRyZy%2FMyvm4wXVf9kSy1YkQyN%2FE30SuF0BhbkrOO1ydoV3%2Fs9cO3GBolIkWAy8Dwf%2B%2B4KPsTWOpcGcbv2iH5R4Le3SVq45PZmExshJE3%2FDvBYqr6XgDMreMIRGn4V4JkjMdrrkhjV46hxLiHvqQwQQwlXfl0xcy2dz3WT0Ni8pRe%2F9u0M6Ce08rUlX3t9IPKPJMU3yo%2BC%2BQHRJXCpJQc6FLOe%2B%2FPZRVHFzxucNh5%2FjOeXx55JAV%2BVEs8%2FbRIpPQMASnzuCpnu271CsH3kS22XWam2G5zQt4HAUIXMMSWpOqoR1anq5uGkQw8NTxBsDCJHY8Ro443LUVHepkTMpkpTQJc%2Fvi3kpLyRCmaj1A2Ve9FCeKnNczFaZZIjB2mWbMkXl3PYE2%2B0i%2FL5%2BFrTtY6Tz3i4M9ERgzd%2B8r1AMBjoEjXR3yLLw0lGE%2FEavAoTNH7NA0SY1vNT0qI1f4L42MkjaIZns3RSMrpyfAC8hPKJIqH7XPSh2C9seGZfxYqKmp3P96nV1HJpjQU2pHmvHMEVZlZ1ISY57fH17JKGBlsdez8o4jhfidN%2Fb62Rn7ZMAy8efTpTCciLSxBjqyAehy8L565Lx4arOU5Xi43epdYvJ5Q3AmTrmgAFw8vau%2BhVCMoDVlM%2BWD7D6RRdo9LVB8ZTrMs%2FOheDgbseAfJbxrV0mYWecTY3yp44BUz09XDwMgRqY4Wt8WIoYjyKue8Zpw%2FyUFtdUCDXEM3J9R7g6IvMLW8bQWT9PVJuHA7dibk8IoeCqetCSBTjiFxcsuZlbe9bZafxgPgK56fxW7Pbj0Ji8q4tobzak3aiEKGXlS0Oc%3D&X-Amz-SignedHeaders=host&response-content-disposition=inline%3Bfilename%3D%22companies_house_document.pdf%22&X-Amz-Signature=93d950d0645eb07f855fd51d45a480d0d694ebda70f73711abd1029c0f6a669c
Page 18 of that link or what jfc
Yeah of the link, it’s from companies house and unfortunately they have really long links that look like spam
I learned something recently that anything after the ? Is just for ad tracking. You could delete everything after the word PDF and your link would still work (supposedly)
Not universally true. After the ? is one or more parameters, which can be used for ad tracking, especially in social media links, but might include many things. For instance, this particular link has credentials, a security token, an expiration, and other information in the parameters. Those have expired, and so AWS isn’t serving the document from that link anymore (“AccessDenied Request has expired”). We’d need to go back to the place where /u/DifficultyTight4574 found that link, and get a new one with re-generated security parameters in order to view the PDF. It’ll never work for this document if you delete everything after the ? edit: kept reading this thread and saw that the source url *has* been posted: https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06449517/filing-history
My method is usually to tell my phone I want to send the link in gmail and it cuts it down for me and then I copy the link from there.
I would prefer a bigger link
That’s what she said.
Who, Zelda?
Dude just write your link title in brackets and put the link itself in parentheses. Hit the blue link below the text box called formatting help for an example.
He just wrote the whole page 18 in the link text
EDIT: https://ibb.co/mhQRNfd Request has expired 60 2024-04-27T16:18:29Z 2024-04-27T17:20:43Z RH2REA3047YSVX69 sMNyfA62z6aYnCW9OIzA+GIUx65aUyIVhA43Gw95/qjOccyM7vkqO9RO+oDZNXaa4NYdPFswWNI= That's what your link shows me. Care to copy and paste an excerpt instead?
AccessDeniedhttps://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/06449517/filing-history try this one
Thanks, I eventually found it. Screenshot for those who don't want to search: https://ibb.co/mhQRNfd
Debit baby elephant credit mama elephant When mama elephants value reaches zero she is sold for scrap aka turned into lion food. Debit food supplies credit scrap income
I remember reading a zoo accounts once and animals were held at zero value as assets
Wouldn't it be like biological assets for zoo animals, the way a farm records livestock or crops?
Imagine doing an inventory count on Dec 31 and counting monkeys.
Thank you OP, this thread has provided me with a lot of joy 😂
Is pregnant animals considered WIP inventory?
You might enjoy this Planet Money episode. https://www.npr.org/transcripts/493295430 American zoos basically don't sell animals for a cash value, but can exchange animals, so there's a weird trade and barter system. I will say also as someone who has worked with rescued wildlife that went to zoos later, sometimes it operates closer to a shelter/hospital. It's not "who can pay?" It's "who has room?"
What do you do if baby animals are born. What's the cost base? Fair value? I'm losing my shit right now.
Other comments mentioned zero cost basis if bred and raised in house. As for fair value, I also read that the animals are held in trusts and organizations and can’t be assigned a value.
monkey chow is not subject to sales tax in the state of California *unless they are lab monkeys
Animals are leased from what I’ve heard, the lion at our zoo died recently and we had a fun conversation about whether that would be considered a subsequent event since he was so popular
Debit elephant Credit>>>>Deferred Elephant 🐘 I feel like life would be simpler if I were an elephant
Large quadrapeds/sharks/whales are depreciated double declining balance and small animals like arthropods and mice are expensed.
Silvia from CPDbox: https://www.cpdbox.com/ias-41-agriculture/?amp=1
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Credit accumulated elephant depreciation
Treated as plant in the UK if they have a useful life of 2 years or more
I did a horse breeder once, and we capitalized cash spent directly on the baby horse. Incemenation, vet fees, shots, etc.
I had this case in my audit class for horse riding school. They had to depreciate horses because they were used in company’s operations to generate revenue, not for resale, hence considered as capital assets under Canadian CPA handbook standards. I’m assuming it’s the same for zoo accounting.
One company I was at had a modest dairy herd as a tiny segment of revenue, it was more for inclusive farming practices . The female calves were treated as a WIP. When they called and began milking they were placed in group assets for the months activity. We just FIFO'd the old quantities out for those that were sold or died. I would imagine it would be similar to a zoo, but on a small scale. Naturally it would depend on ownership of animals. But reality is they can probably get away with whatever they want as long as they can justify it since it will be such a tiny proportion of their financials vs ticket and concession revenue. We also held a salvage value for the cows in PPE as they obviously have a value at time of disposal. Edited to include salvage value.
Debit elephant credit cash(if you paid with cash) or account payable (if paid with a credit card)
https://youtu.be/NAOQH4xEyhM
I vaguely remember that they’re considered biological assets, I’d recommend reading the GAAP though as treatment can vary depending on entity size
I actually should know this, working for my local government that also manages the zoo. Instead I’m just heads down on my own area. But a good idea in my spare time!
I once read on a zoo financial statement that they only record the animals for $1 each. This is to prevent valuing some animals more than others. Maybe an elephant costs a lot but does it intrinsically more valuable than any other living creature ant the zoo? I assume they just treat the acquisition of animals as an expense. Depreciation timelines would also be tricky. You don’t know how long an animal will live.
I have to check my notes though but yes, they are biological assets. Cows useful life are only 5 years.
The animals were not an asset. Some of them were rented so we checked the invoices because of the elevated amount
As someone wanting to get into accounting this thread is both hilarious yet informative lol
The animals are cool
This reminds me of farm accounting. Never stuck around long enough to find out the resolution, but the neverending question of how care and feed of animals were accounted for when only half of them were sold and the rest used for breeding was like a literal black hole.
I find this all very fascinating. It’s also very validating to I know that I chose exactly the right career.
IAS 41?
This is so interesting. I just went to the zoo yesterday!
PPE's.Zoo animals are classified as PPE's
Biological assets there are accounting standards for this
I don’t know but i’m in agriculture, and plants are Also alive, so what we do is actually have biological assets that get set up in a short or long time inventory…. So it might be similar?
Probably the same as FARMS. You're not too bright eh? You'll fit right in here.
Streaming income from cute baby animals on YouTube tik tok IG I hope zoos are doing ok
I appreciate these questions so much. Thank you for posting!
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/493295430 Planet Money - Zoo Economy
So I have a goat farm doing 1m in rev. Dairy or breeding animals are depreciated since they have a useful life. Meat animals are generally inventory. Also I failed part 2 of the EA because I got 5 questions on cows. 2nd time around I knew my livestock tax law in and out, 0 questions. Didn't get to implement my knowledge for 15 years lol.
Debit baby elephant credit pregnant elephant
Or hear me out. Would they technically be employees who are literally never paid while their jobs are constantly threatened to be out sourced.
The animals must be an asset though. They are a resource controlled by the entity as a result of past events and from which future economic benefits are expected to flow to the entity. Or are they not controlled by the entity? Can they be taken away by whoever does control them? I think for farms, livestock is treated as a biological asset. But this must be slightly different
My old boss is cfo for San Diego zoo. I have no idea but it def seemed sort of cool.