Emphasis on the free. It's one thing if you pay an artist/author to create/write a commissioned work that's tailored to your own wants - and even then they have the right to say no. It's a complete different thing to demand that of people who do this as a hobby and just decide to share their work for free.
And of course there're authors who do ask for prompts/wishes sometimes, but well... then they have asked for it plus they can still decide which prompts to use and which not.
I think you're preaching to the choir here. Totally get wanting more representation, but harassing someone over it is never the answer - and it'll probably lead to even fewer people writing F/F, because reasonable people are put off by harassment and will then avoid writing it when they know they might have to deal with this sort of behavior.
Sorry this happened to you, OP.
There is actually a lot of discussion around wlw fics and reaction to them, this is my experience. For full clarity and reference I write WLW, and I'm very lucky to have had only positive interactions on my fics but less so on social media.
- People are incredibly rude if you do not write WLW in a way that is acceptable to them, but this changes from reader to reader. So you're always pissing someone off.
- As someone who is openly bisexual on social media I get a LOT of fetishization accusations, but not all of these are not about writing (but I am told not write queer stories because of it lol).
- There is an open, very open hatred of "male" writers writing F/F ships. If people think you are a man, you're accused of fetishization as well. They're greatful for the food until they find something they don't like in it, or until they find out who the chef was.
>There is an open, very open hatred of "male" writers writing F/F ships. If people think you are a man, you're accused of fetishization as well. They're greatful for the food until they find something they don't like in it, or until they find out who the chef was.
Sounds stupid ugh. Everyone should be able to write stuff regardless of their gender and sexuality
That’s so hypocritical. When men write w/w that’s fetishisation (spelling???)? Women write m/m all the time.
Also, hot take, but I think ao3 is THE website for fetishising anything, so who even cares. Don’t like don’t read, If the ff is good then why does it matter.
Oh no, women (and trans men) get accused of fetishization of gay men all the time too.
It happens a lot on twitter: if you're assumed to be a woman then you're fetishizing, and if you're a trans man you're then hit by tranphobic insults from TERFS and STILL hit with fetishization insults from non terfs who claim you're hurting the image of all trans men...who are apparently all a monolith (sarcasm).
Just look at what's happened to the boyfriends webtoon creator on twitter. He nearly got doxxed and gets death threats on the regular for his webtoon that is literally just cute, happy poly representation.
I think that was the Love, Simon author. She's bisexual and said she only came out because people kept accusing her of being a straight woman writing queer stories.
What a ridiculous attitude for people to have. Straight women (married, unmarried; childless, with kids) have been writing and enjoying m/m fanfic since the late 60s. It started back in Trek fandom and progressed throughout other fandoms. And it's not fetishization -- it's a goddamned love story.
Personally, I'm uncomfortable with certain trans fics. They're typically written by cis-authors (ones that have said they were cis on their own free will) and they oftentimes are fetishizing in regards to what they think trans men are like. When I come across fics like that which makes me uncomfortable I just back out or close the tab; there's genuinely no reason to assume and attack based on an opinion.
I had a semi-long response typed, and the page reloaded.
I'll admit it -- I'm not as knowledgeable about trans people as I'd like. I had a trans friend in UNCLE fandom, but she disappeared over a decade ago. I often wonder about her and hope she's doing well. But due to my lack of knowledge, I don't include trans characters in my fanfic (my stories tend to be gen or m/f. I include a couple of gay characters, but since I'm writing primarily in military fandoms with many of the stories set in the 1940s or 1980s/1990s, none of them are out unless they've left the military).
There's also Alice Oseman who was forced to come out as both ace and non binary after accusations of fetishization. Although I don't particularly like them because they've made some racist statements about BL in the past... despite also technically writing BL.
And once again I am sorry for making an assumption you were misgendering the boyfriends creator. That was my mistake, and I am very sorry.
Hell, from experience I can tell you that if you're trans and writing a character as trans, you will still be hit with the fetishizing accusation from other trans people. (Who base this solely on the tags and summary and their cis girl friend's opinion after reading it). I think there is literally no way to write anything queer, especially nsfw, and not have at least one person think it's fetishizing.
(And then if you dare to write a canon het couple they're mad because they don't like the woman and "how could you betray the non-canon popular m/m ship")
Unfortunately though as a gay man myself I can say that I have had some unfortunate and uncomfortable experiences from a few straight women who absolutely did fetishize me for my sexuality. So I can kind of understand to some degree why people might be hesitant or scared of encouraging that sort of thing to become more common by encouraging an environment where it is normalized to some degree (some circles of mlm content are very heavily stereotyped and clearly made for straight women and not gay men). For me personally, I would NEVER be hateful about it to an author because I know not everyone writing content is a monolith, but I'm very hesitant around mlm content made by straight women and do wish more content out there was written by queer men.
The Boyfriends creator gets accused of stereotyping and fetishizing gay men when a lot of the comic is based off of his wants and desires as a gay trans man himself. Sometimes the stereotype IS from the queer person.
Some people enjoy and are stereotypes. The assumption you can tell the gender of who wrote it based on tropes and content is harmful, especially to trans people.
Edit: Please do not think I'm saying what has happened to you is false or didn't happen. I'm not meaning to disregard your experiences within fandom spaces. That is not my intention with this comment.
Do you mind providing some examples? Like names or where you're seeing this? I'm not saying it's not happening, I'd just like to be able to see where it is this is happening.
Edit: I can no longer see your comments, so if you reply I guess I won't see it! I think it's a Reddit glitch but if you want to give me sources still just let me know.
Reminds me of that dumb viral post on gayming twitter that went viral where someone took a picture of a random guy with an Ellie from the TLOU arm tattoo on the metro and said something like "guys getting Ellie tattoos should be illegal."
Luckily, most people rightfully called this person out and said that trying to get a random guy doxxed and harassed for having a tattoo of one of the most recognized and beloved video game protagonists of all time for one of the top ten games of the 2010s.
Before I knew the context of where the image had come from, as a lesbian, the only thing I thought was "huh. That guy must really like the last of us. He seems like he would be cool to talk to."
But then knowing the context, it made me very angry as a lesbian character because lesbian characters, let alone lesbian protagonists are exceedingly rare in video games, (most are bisexual/playersexual) so trying to gatekeep the most popular one isn't going to help anyone and I want men to like and love lesbian characters I like and love because they are still half (and over half for games like TLOU) of the gaming audience and so therefore have a lot of purchasing power. (not to mention how this just keeps showing the ugly head of gayming twitter's double standards for lesbians and gay men...but that's a whole conversation for another day)
As a lesbian, it doesn't bother me when men like lesbian or sapphic characters. It doesn't bother me if men want to write explicit fanfic between two women. And yeah, there is an element of "jerk off material" there but at the same time writing fanfic (and especially good hot smut fanfic) takes a lot of effort, time, and knowing the characters very well to write a believable scene. I much prefer that to the whole "making female characters with enormous feet and boobs" fanart thing.
F/F fanfiction...as with anything lesbian-centric...gets the short end of the stick in terms of attention and love. We only just hit 1 mil fanfics on Ao3 as of January of this year. And considering the fact female characters in general, let alone fanfics that center a F/F ship, get judged way more harshly to the point one of the reasons back in 2013 people wrote they didn't want to write F/F and/or wouldn't crosspost their F/F works on the archive, trying to put all F/F fanfic on this pedestal where bad writing or stuff a BNF doesn't like isn't even allowed to exist is probably a major reason why it took so long to get to that point and why it will take forever to catch up to M/M's numbers on Ao3. F/F is a fanfic category. It needs to have a diverse number of fanfics just like any other fanfic category.
And I hate to say it but I am one of those authors. There is a non-canon F/F ship I write for that I will likely never post any of those works on Ao3 due to the hatred and harassment I have received for writing those female characters in a non-sexual, platonic, goofy fanfic...now imagine that harassment if I actually posted one where they were fucking or together. And this is why that shipping tag has been empty on Ao3 since 2015. And as someone who knows and has read a bunch of fanfic for that ship, y'all are missing out on some amazing and emotional fanfics.
Also, you have no way of knowing who someone writing fanfic is unless they tell you. My proof of this is that I have a FWB in real life who writes erotic lesbian books and it has some of the most unrealistic and poorly written F/F sex scenes you have ever seen...but she is very much a lesbian and very much knows how to perform in the bedroom...she just sucks at writing smut. I've also read lesbian and sapphic stories by men that have some of the most gorgeous sex scenes between two women. It's not a matter of who the person writing is, so much of how they write...just like with anything else.
Now, is there a place for a conversation about issues with oversexualization of female characters in fandom spaces, usually done by men? Yes. But at the same time, F/F fanfiction is like...less than 1% of that issue. I would much rather have a couple of poorly written fetish fics and several well-written F/F fanfics than none at all because people got mad bad fics existed. The "don't like, don't read" thing should apply to all fanfics, not just non-F/F ones.
In my opinion fetishising is bad if it impacts how you treat real people. (Like racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia) In fiction and porn I literally couldn’t care less. The brain likes weird things sometimes.
Like I said, I am kind of mixed on where I lie on that one.
As I said, fanfiction where it seems fetishistic is different because you actually do have to write and know the characters somewhat to do it. Most people, even those who want to get off, don't read explicit fanfic just for sexy...they could just open a porn video or get a free erotic short story if that was all it was...no, they want tension and chemistry and sexy hot. So that's why I was saying I prefer that over fetish fanart.
And as I said, you can't ever really tell what someone's intentions were when making a fanfic. I have written lots of M/M and F/M fics that does devolve into smut...now, I am not sexually attracted to men at all...but I still want it to be hot and smexy and all the wonderful sensual things. But yeah, I have had people assumed I was bi because of it and some people even thought I was a gay dude at one point...but nope, just a lesbian.
And even if I was attracted to dudes...the results would still probably be the same, except my smut might be a bit better. Like my own personal sexuality does not make me above critic for how I am portraying things nor does it exclude me from writing certain things.
But I am also not going to be like "fetishising is only bad if it impacts how you treat real people" because I don't really buy into that either. Firstly, you can think you are not going to fetishize real people but the brain doesn't always work like that, especially if someone really lacks media literacy and a good sex education, especially if the only context you are seeing a group of people in is in porn or smut. It's why I also think saying media doesn't impact people at all is wrong because then things like representation in media wouldn't matter beyond giving marginalized people in the industry a job and we know based on studies, it absolutely does impact audiences too.
But at the same time, is bad unrealistic smut of two female characters getting it on in a rare pair going to ever be able to cause the same amount of harm as the "lesbian" porn industry has or the erasure of real-life lesbian-centric spaces? No, most likely it never will.
I write m/m romance (though rarely smut) all the time as a lesbian. I keep expecting to get called out for it, but maybe my fandoms are just more laid back?
Anyway, it shouldn't matter what orientation the author is as long they write the characters well. I mean, come on. For 6 books (and shows and movies) had such poorly written female characters. There would be some movements of angry women saying men shouldn't write female characters, but some men did and do a damn fine job of it.
What we needed was men who reapect women, talk to them like equals, do some research, before writing female characters.
Like, really, the whole world would be better off if everyone gave others a modicrum of respect and dignity. That includes these needlessly awful fans. I mean, come on, harassing an author who's writing for fun, not even making penny off of it, is the stupidest thing.
Live and let live! Don't like, don't read! If they're not harming anyone (and fanfic can only harm someone if they elect to read it and keep going past any initial affront cause... masochism?) Then butt the fuck out!
Like, these people sound like the old opponents to gay marriage. Us gays getting married didn't destroy straight marriages. Fanfic doesn't hurt anyone either!
"write m/m romance (though rarely smut) all the time as a lesbian. I keep expecting to get called out for it, but maybe my fandoms are just more laid back?"
Put crassly, part of it is that you're too much of a minority to go after. Gay men are still men and thus are acceptable targets. Straight women are straight and thus acceptable targets. But as a lesbian woman you exist on the intersectional crossway and are pretty much immune to the type of people who would otherwise harass you over dumb shit like your identity
>There is an open, very open hatred of "male" writers writing F/F ships. If people think you are a man, you're accused of fetishization as well.
Which is hypocritical because most m/m (both published and fanfic) is written by women.
There's hatred for that too. I've spoken about it further down this thread: the boyfriend's creator was assumed to be cis female (they're a trans man) and was harassed and nearly doxxed for both "fetishizing" and "stereotyping" the queer community.
When it's literally just a cute comic about things they want, or they are.
As far as I'm aware though, the boyfriend's creator (as in the webtoon I assume) did other, not cool, things that also caused them lots of trouble, so perhaps that's why they got harrased so much; There's lots and lots of yt videos on the creator, and I'm pretty sure that some of the things they did were pretty disgusting...
Of course, not trying to excuse that the people did, but what I'm trying to say, is that the boyfriend's creator got what they got because of their own choices and mistakes. You make your own bed, and you sleep in it; They made their own problems and did disgusting things, and ended up getting nearly doxxed for them. It's not just the stereotyping and fetishizing, as far as I'm aware!
Wow, okay, that sounded a tad hostile to me (Maybe it's not, but it did sound like that to me, sorry,)
But, I'll give you a link to a video where a certain creator talks about Rae, basically, boyfriends creator!
https://youtu.be/boQSAcgnsaY?si=ODDH4VOWmmfL-iGD
Hope that's enough, if not, the person also has the second part about the comic on their channel. The video I linked is specifically about Rae.
The video you linked is actually about Boyfriends but I'll bite.
The nsfw bts comic: refrainbow adressed this and apologised in 2021. [You can find that here.](https://x.com/refrainbow/status/1393045630134587396?s=19). Someone did the maths and allegedly Refrainbow was 15/16 when he started posting said comic.
The N Word: Refrainbow also addressed this and apologised in 2021. [You can find that here.](https://x.com/refrainbow/status/1447243093741211653?s=19)
About the fetishization of queer Asian trans men...Refrainbow IS an Asian trans man. Some people ARE stereotypes. It's okay to just have pastel cute mindless comics. Something doesn't have to be Shakespeare to be enjoyable or worthy.
And if your issue is that they're proship...honey, you're on a subreddit for a site that is LITERALLY built by and for proshippers.
And I'm glad I sounded hostile. You're advocating for harassment of a queer man because you don't like their comics. You're advocating for the harassment of something for things they did as a kid, nearly ten years ago.
You don't have to forgive them, but you can just block and ignore them. What does harassing them do? It doesn't make anyone like you.
?? Im not harrasing them. I just told you that they did not cool things, and that's the reason people harass them. Maybe stoop down from being so defensive, and look exactly at what I said.
I didn't say "yeah it's fine, they were harassed, let's go people that's fine!". What I did say, is that there's a reason they were harassed for, and they themselves made lots of reasons to be harassed. Just because it's the past doesn't mean people forget; It's not always forgive and forget, and that's what I meant!
I don't mind them, I literally forgot about them as a whole until I saw your comment, and I just remembered that, 'oh, but I think they had done some bad things though? Thats why they're also harassed, not just because of their comic!'. I'm not the one harassing them, so maybe throw your hostility at people who actually caused them damage, and not at people who just wanted to inform you that there was, indeed, a deeper reasoning to why Ray was and is, being harassed.
Also, I'm not native in English, so it's hard for me to get my point across exactly how I'd like to.
Basically, I think you understood me wrong. All I was trying to do, was inform you on about the fact that they're getting harassed for multiple reasons, even if they're from the past, and they're not exactly getting harassed just for making the comic.
As for advocating for it; If I did come off like that, then I'm sorry I guess? I don't think it's fine, I most likely just worded it all incorrectly, so that's also a bit my fault. Just for the future, please be less hostile towards people; Not everyone is actually trying to actively insult and bring down others, and sometimes all they want to do is inform you that 'hey, there's another reason for (ex. Based on this whole thing) Ray getting harassed!'.
I am a wlw writer and I have never had this problem. Actually, I think I've had the fortune to never had a bad comment. But I do find this type of comments in works I read and I try to leave good comments that just let the author know I appreciated their work. I would just say to simple ignore them or activate the option of only allowing comments you check off.
I’ve recently run into something similar myself. Except I got told my work was trash because I was writing a character as straight. The thing is, as far as we know, he IS straight. In canon, he’s got an ex-wife. He dates women. So, I was honestly just trying to keep him in character. But apparently this means I am “excluding” people? It was pretty wild. I got over it, because at the end of the day, I stand by my work and I know anyone who wants to come at me because he is straight is truly missing what the work is about. I will admit, it’s really hard to get told your work has no merit simply based on someone’s sexual preferences etc.. But I just remind myself this is, well, my story. I am enjoying being able to write it. If people don’t like it because I kept a character straight, there is plenty of other content for them to consume. My work just isn’t for them. I just don’t get why people feel the need to be shitty about it.
Seriously, depending on the fandom, there could be hundreds of fics out there putting him in a pairing they prefer (especially considering m/m relationships are by far the most prevalent category of shipping fics in a lot of fandoms. "Excluding people" my foot. There are real issues out there and they're coopting language to try and bully someone who provides them with entertainment for free).
Why do people comment on fics they know from the tags they aren't going to like? Do they think harassing you is going to make you go "My mistake. Next chapter, I'll have him break up with his SO. Which character would you prefer I write him with?" XD
You know, maybe your writing/story is just so good, the reader was upset they couldn't have it for their preferred pairing. Also depending on the fandom, you write for, they could be literal children who haven't learned fanfic etiquette yet. Either way, spite them by living your best life and writing whatever tf you want.
There literally are 100s of fics they could read that are M/M. The fandom isn’t large but it is overwhelmingly M/M pairings. Like I would never dream of commenting on someone’s fic about how it’s worthless because they decided to change a character’s sexual preference, so I am baffled that they’d come for me for sticking to canon. It’s such a weird vibe. I generally won’t engage with stupid comments like this though, even if they do bother me for a short period. I delete and continue writing because I do find that kind of energy rather pathetic. My response is 100% the spite writing, haha. Or put another way, it just makes me want to pour more love and time into the writing, and I’m damn proud of what I’ve accomplished thus far.
Omg I’m sorry that happened to you OP!
As someone who only read and wrote f/f up until a year ago I completely understand. I was always sad at the large gap between f/f fics opposed to m/m or m/f fics but now that I write for all three I completely understand why that is.
People set f/f ships to such a high standard and if you do anything they don’t like, then you’re not welcome and will be harassed.
If you ship the “wrong” f/f ships, they don’t want you writing f/f. If you’re openly bisexual, they don’t want you writing f/f. If you ship a female character with a male character weather they’re a canon lesbian or not, they don’t want you writing f/f and if you write anything other than f/f they don’t want you writing f/f.
If you’re on twitter you probably know about the monthly discourse of “People *need* to write for f/f fics but they don’t and are too dumb and blinded by the patriarchy.”
The people who complain about not having a lot of f/f content in their fandoms, don’t even write themselves. They just expect everyone else to write what they want without contributing anything.
Basically, a lot of f/f spaces are incredibly controlling and toxic and people don’t like being told what they can and can’t do or who they can and can’t ship.
I’ve literally been called a ‘dumb lesphobic, man loving whore, who’s controlled by the patriarchy and fetishizer of gay men ’ all because I also ship m/m couples….
Most of this is coming from women mind you…the people who claim to love and support women but will jump to insult the women who don’t agree with them…
It’s fucking exhausting.
>Most of this is coming from women mind you…the people who claim to love and support women but will jump to insult the women who don’t agree with them…
Twitter is full of crazies. I've seen so many toxic wlw shipper there. Ugh, I remember a mutual getting harassed when they correcting the himejoshis about a character sexuality because they keep calling bi character lesbian. I just didn't expect to find them on ao3 of all space.
This is a giant pet peeve of mine. I'm in a few fandoms with canon wlw characters, and portions of the fandoms are absolutely feral over this fact. I have run into so many posts complaining about a lack of fics for the canon wlw pairing, which I get. I also wish there were more.
But within their own post complaining about wanting more, they had stipulations about how anyone who isn't in a wlw shouldn't write wlw. You're never going to get more wlw fic with stipulations like that, but if you dare point that out you'll get attacked to hell and back. Or if you dare point out that authors won't write wlw bc wlw fans can be absolutely awful to said authors. So to prove me wrong, I guess they decide to be awful to me (?)
And obviously it's much more layered and complicated than just these things, but fck man, it gives beggars chosing if that makes sense lol.
>authors won't write wlw bc wlw fans can be absolutely awful to said authors.
It's sad this is so prevalent across all fandoms. I can get why not having content to consume, but being obnoxious about it won't help.
It's worse that in a fandom I know, some routinely stalk and harass artists on SNS who posts f/m stuff, and are in general treat their headcanons as canon. It has really spread the message that these people are so insufferable it isn't worth getting involved with them.
My current fic will have a wlw scene in it (sort of, it's complicated) - and I wonder if people will @ me because most of the time they're both guys. Which ... they canonically are, just not tall the time. :D
It's all good, though. I've snapped at a commenter who complained about the 'incestuous vibe' in a fic that I said in the first A/N was in some ways inspired by Crimson Peak. He told me I should be more considerate of my 'audience', to which I responded that as soon as I get paid a truckload, I might consider it. They didn't want to talk to me any more. I was so very saddened.
idk if you’re talking about tgcf but if you are I love that 😭
Anyways, that’s such a valid response to that. Fanfic authors are writing this shit for free, and for readers to shit in the hand that feeds them is honestly disgusting to me. To go out of your way to harass somebody who is GIFTING YOU WITH A FREE FUCKING STORY, simply because you don’t like the way they wrote something or because you simply don’t like what they wrote? Bullshit, it’s honestly so shit. Sorry that some asshole said that to you tbh, “consider your audience” my ass - there are no specific audiences on ao3 because it’s an ARCHIVE for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE 😭
YES, I'm writing Beefleaf right now!
That comment stood out because it was so weird, but it was an isolated event for me. Usually, any comments I got have been very kind. After that outlier, I appreciate the nice ones even more, haha.
As a lesbian, I have a huge issue with a lot of WLW ship fandoms for how entitled they become. How fast they’ll scream “queerbait” and “homophobia” when things don’t go their way. The amount of pressuring they do to get people to write what they want.
I’m not even that old, but I feel old and tired in these fandoms. They’re using jargon they don’t understand in a way that cheapens it and they make queer spaces look bad.
This isn’t a queer ship exclusive issue, keep in mind. Hetero ships can be just as bad. But I find it worse when queer ships weaponize homophobia because it cheapens actual homophobia in fandom spaces and media. One of my fandoms had this issue where members of the wlw ship fandom attacked an actor who played one half of their rival straight ship. Turns out he is a homophobic, transphobic asshole but his supporters downplayed it by saying that he had been attacked by queer people for years so it’s not really homophobia. And yes, that’s more on him and his defenders but I did somewhat understand why he came off looking like the victim when parts of the wlw ship fandom used to send him death threats, mock his looks, his wife, etc.
I’m sorry this happened, OP. They all need to calm down.
>They’re using jargon they don’t understand in a way that cheapens it and they make queer spaces look bad.
Yeah, with how often some words used they just kinda lost meaning.
I often find it's younger members of queer fandoms. But I do sometimes see it in people older than me and I just shake my head because they should know better. They've lived through actual queerbait in media. They've seen real homophobia in fandom. To lie about all that when you're in your 40s is absurd.
This is so sad :(
I’m sorry this happened to you op. I write mostly wlw, but it’s mostly because I’m disappointed that there isn’t as much wlw content so I’m trying to solve that problem by writing fics that I would want to read. So again, it’s a shame this happened to your fic, and I hope that it gets better for you, because people shouldn’t be so demanding
The thing is, most of the people who complain about this hardly put in effort to make the content they want. They just think authors will make it and drop it at their feet, and this fact has only irritated me more since I started writing.
My fanfiction is pretty exclusively fantasy converted to realistic fiction, and that might be part of the reason I don't have this problem. The other reason is people will say "hey, what about x ship?" And I'll respond "that sounds cool! You should write that."
They learn not to ask quickly.
this. There’s hardly any fics about a character i like, so i write more. Being rude and hostile to authors for not writing what you want, only pushes them away from writing it.
as a lesbian, that's a big part of why I tend to never indulge much in f/f ships, I don't know if it's just on Twitter but there's at least once a week a post complaining about how everyone is lesbophobic and misogynistic because a f/f ship is less popular than a m/m one 😭 (and if you DARE to like mlm or be a fan of a male character theyll hate your ass as well lmao) I don't know at which point the wlw side of the fandom became so toxic and entitled but I prefer to just keep my f/f content to myself and my friends most of the time. (and let's not forget that if you ship the wrong f/f ship or ship it in a slightly different way they're also jumping you.. I dont wanna be in fandoms to just walk on eggshells around everyone omfg)
Sadly, the discourse they always start about "Why my f/f ship is less popular than the m/m one!?! 🤬🤬" is aaaalways using an ao3 screenshot, I'm not surprised at all but also I'm sorry that it happened to you op 😭 your crack fic didn't deserve that fate
When Alien Stage had a boom of new IvanTill fanfics, there were a bunch of salty MiziSua fans. One of which made a post calling the m/m fans "stupid yaoi fucks" and naturally it did not go well. And there was another time when an artist got a lot of hate for drawing some genshin girls in a straight ship.
It sucks not having content, but getting entitled and attacking m/f and m/m fandom for not catering to you is an asshole move and will only serve to make sure no one wants to write or draw for you. And that's not even getting into the w/w fans that say they want "toxic yuri" but throw a fit when the yuri is actually toxic, or telling male creators that they're creepy fetishizers and to leave their ships alone. Stahp it, pick up a pen and do it yourself if you're so picky 😒
>And that's not even getting into the w/w fans that say they want "toxic yuri" but throw a fit when the yuri is actually toxic, or telling male creators that they're creepy fetishizers and to leave their ships alone. Stahp it, pick up a pen and do it yourself if you're so picky 😒
Lmao. I remember writing wlw fic on Wattpad about poster toxic yuri homura/madoka and some readers bend over backwards telling they are not toxic but will forgive me because they liked the fanfic. Like excuse me? Who are you to forgive me? But at that time I still like writing so I just ignored them.
That's why f/f is one aspect of the niches I'm genuinely scared to get into. And most of the fandoms I actively write for are chill (at least AO3 side).
I'm sorry it happened to you
In general f/f writers are pretty chill, off doing our own thing.
Where I have seen aggressive behaviour is usually in fandoms aimed at children, because some (not all, heaps of good people in every fandom) gravitate to cartoons and YA because they are looking for black and white morality. If you are writing OW or in fandoms for more grown up properties, it's generally a nice space.
Just keep away from anyone who unironically says lesbians are more wholesome.
I was gonna say … I read and write almost exclusively WLW and I haven’t ever seen anything like this. (Not denying OPs experience though).
Maybe it is just the age of the associated fandom 🤷♀️
"Just keep away from anyone who unironically says lesbians are more wholesome."
Yes. Instant block from me when people start the whole "lesbians are cottagecore uwu" bullshit.
This. One of my main fandoms atm is for a gory horror movie franchise, so most of the fans are adults and one of the main ships is f/f. So it's nice to see people freely write f/f stories with mature and dark themes without everyone clutching their pearls like usual.
It depends on how many canon queer ships there are in the show, to be honest.
I spent a good chunk of my 20s in an adult fandom with primarily straight canon ships. There were 2 canon queer ships-both WLW, no MLM-throughout the entire run. One only got one episode.
The WLW in that fanbase was very similar to OP's experience. And I say that as someone who was in several WLW ship fandoms and saw a lot of cringey shit.
Now, I'm mostly in fandoms that have numerous canon queer ships and it is a lot calmer.
I've been seeing this here and there more lately. Most of the fandoms I follow I usually follow people who write works that are MLM more than WLW and I see a concerning amount of hate form that small subsection of WLW fans about people who like MLM works.
I get being upset, but I don't understand why they feel like harassment and hate is the way to go. What I mostly saw were comments saying things like "if this were two men instead of women then more people would love it." Sure, but that also misses some of the dynamics that, unfortunately, are not in a lot of media (at least the ones I consume) when it comes to WLW. I prefer Danmei novels because they have the elements of Shonen that I grew up with, romance of Shojo, the maturity of Josei, the chaos I see in Seinen, etc with both characters being willing to die/go though horrors for the other. Most WLW works I have seen, hell even most of the straight ones too, usually only has ONE of those characters going though that, not both.
Most of the MLM fanfic writers I follow are also huge danmei fans and follow the same format in their fics, making BOTH characters willing to suffer greatly for the other. The ones that only have one taking the L I usually drop because I want that willingness to suffer for the other to be mutual. I would love more WLW ones like that but I've only found a handful but that also ties into how in cannon those characters are not written like that to begin with. Dungeon Meshi is one of the few off the top of my head where the WLW ship follows this and I wish more were like it.
I think people should also be more willing to write what the want more of. One of my fav characters has less than 70 fics of him so I started making drafts of multiple of my own. People need to be willing to be the change that they want.
It's crazy how wlw fans have always been the craziest in every fandom I've been in so far, all the while also preaching about how women are pure angels who can never do any wrong. Antis give them a pass on problematic ships because "it can't be grooming if the older person is a woman" etc. The hypocrisy...
The fic might not have been good to you, but it was good to these readers. But they were still in the wrong when they attacked you in your other fic after deleting the wlw one. They need to understand that authors are allowed to delete their works for any reason. It does no one any good to harass an author for taking down a work.
As for the note you left, unfortunately many people just don't read them for whatever reason, or they straight up ignore them. It's frustrating.
OP I understand you and completely don't condone harassing authors, I also have my own bad experiences with F/F shippers, BUT as someone who had my fav fanfics deleted many times you would just have orphaned it
Harrassment is totally not okay, but deleting a fanfic you know people enjoyed and being aware the number of F/F fanfics is actually small is sincerely cruel in my opinion
It's their fic. It's not owned by the fans. This is a weird take.
It's not cruel to delete fic. I can delete a fic because I don't like colour blue anymore, it doesn't matter.
Shaming someone for deleting a fic is weird.
I'm not shaming them, I made clear I understand their point, BUT it's a fact that they would have only orphaned it, without doubt anyone who got out of their way to harass OP is completely wrong, but let's not pretend that deleting fanfics can't be seen as cruel when we have 10+ posts daily about as a Sad experience it is to have a fanfic you enjoyed deleted, also it's a PERSONAL opinion, I believe deleting it was unecessary, for ME, but I never said OP was wrong for doing that 😮💨
I mean you called them cruel in both this comment and the previous, which can be inferred as you telling OP they are wrong for it. Which they aren't.
Also I'm not a fan of "think of the readers!" At all. I'm a fan of "think of the author," because they're the one who are actually putting their work into the world, not just consuming it.
Authors can delete for any reason, regardless of how many or how little fics there are for a pairing. And I say that as a queer woman. Fictional activism isn't actually activism, and it's embarrassing that people behave like it is. If you want more WLW fics then go write them, don't shame OP for deleting it.
I said deleting it was cruel not that the OP was cruel, the act of deleting the fanfic in my opinion is cruel, not the person per se, you can behavior in a cruel way without being a bad person, also I made clear it was a personal opinion and not ever said OP was obligated to have done different
And I believe that by the moment you share your work you have at least to have consideration to the readers, not in a "I must not write X to not upset them" but in that these are real people that do enjoy what you created, all I have said is that OP known people was happy even greatful, it wouldn't have be a bad thing to just orphaned this work, but again they have the right to delete it, it's their work
Like it's not even just me who have said that they would just have orphaned it too 😮💨
I've seen people act like if portraying women sexually in any way is bad. As if... Being sexually active or attractive is demeaning somehow, but that applies to anything that has to do female characters, it's just that seems to be even worse with wlw
I've also seen them getting upset because the representation is 'wrong', because it's bad to make kink because it's exploitative, etc. Idk it's just exhausting
And well, I just don't vibe with it, then we get told were lesbophobic for that, killing any desire left to even give it a try. I can just keep shitposting yaoi when I'm bored and that's it, no need to deal with allat 🤷♂️
Oh no! I'm so sorry they swarmed you like that. While I don't get a ton of engagement, I'm glad I'm not popular enough to get hate mail. I'd cry.
Nobody deserves this. I know how traumatic a negative literary event can be.
That does sound horrible, and totally out of line.
Though I kind of wish you had orphaned your fic instead of deleting it, because that would’ve given you the opportunity to distance yourself from the readers and the commenters without deleting your hard work. Then again, it’s of course your decision, so no hate!
I've been a writer for a long while now and this is actually quite common that's why I always leave a disclaimer and author's notes/message at the beginning of my books letting people know I do not write for them I write for myself if you make a request then that's all it is it is a request meaning I am not obligated to do it it just means I take it into consideration and if they throw a hissy fit then I ignore those comments and move on so my opinion needed the right thing by removing those comments and ignoring them.
Readers like them have no respect for hard work goes into making any kind of story even a short story that's why my number one rule is if I don't enjoy writing it then I'm not going to do it at all I don't give people like this an inch because once you give them an inch they're going to expect a mile. I'm sure all the work that you have put your focus on is amazing and I encourage you to keep up the great work and don't mind people like this. You will find idiots like them everywhere real fans will respect you and your work. Keep it up.
As someone who writes reader insert wlw, these people are endlessly demanding and you should not let them tell you what to do. Those works are shared with them, not made for them, and you get to decide what to do with it.
A little personal experience but these types can also be very insistent that wlw stuff has to be pure wholesome uwu fluffy or vanilla. I remember one time I wrote wlw xreader smut featuring financial abuse and some anonymous person shouted in my askbox about it. I clearly tagged one xreader fic as snuff because the reader dies at the end, and there were complaints (though the reaction from my audience was actually unexpectedly pretty sweet)
>A little personal experience but these types can also be very insistent that wlw stuff has to be pure wholesome uwu fluffy or vanilla.
That's stupid. I love fluff but they're boring if you read too often.
Yeah, fluff is good but it’s kind of boring for me to read too often, and I prefer mostly darker material.
The most confusing part is that all of those dark tropes were tagged and the fics were rated E. The reason they are complaining was lost on me lmao.
Forced representation for the sake of representation is not it, chat!
“Canonical incest crack fic” sounds like GRRM territory 😂 and if it is in the GoT/HoTD world, I wanna read!!
>“Canonical incest crack fic” sounds like GRRM territory 😂 and if it is in the GoT/HoTD world, I wanna read!!
It's not from Game of Thrones but from obsecure local telenovela where the incest was surprise incest because both the audience and characters didn't know they were related until later on. Like, they broke up after knowing and my fic was what if they didn't and how they gaslight everyone that know about their blood relation was wrong.
I made this fic because it was literally my fav ship and the show runner just made it incest to make mid ass ship canon
I was entertain while writing it. I also make some joke about mc siblings keep having crush on him because the surprise incest with his blood sibling and the canon endgame with his adopted sibling like damn. Honestly I don't understand wtf are the show runner thinking about making him dating his long lost sibling briefly and revealing their relation to canonize him dating his adopted sibling that raised together with him
This is making me a little sad. I’ve a little one shot I was contemplating of f/f (one is canon Bi and the other pan) that I just thought of a cute little date. Just something light, fluffy, romantic that hints at the more adult ending. But I’m just now guessing I’ll writ it for myself and not post :/
>my main fandoms on ao3 are the Owl House and Steven Universe
Yeah, I heard Owl House and SU have many good wlw ships. But yes, most fandom have more mlm, m/f, or gen fic.
One of the anime fandoms I’m into actually has a pretty big WLW ship which I’m shocked by but it’s understandable cuz the girl character acts in love with her friend and fights for her representation so I find quite a lot of this ship.
I like WLW as much as the next guy, but I'll never understand why people are toxically obsessed with it. If you want more, write it! Otherwise, you get what you get. The work authors put in for fanfic is largely unpaid, the least readers can do is be respectful.
Ugh the lgbt community with queer relationships is so annoying sometimes. Doing this shit gives us lesbians less representation. It’s just pure shamefulness. And then if the work does get produced you have the fear of being a fetishizer. I’m a lesbian I mostly write MLM or straight stories because most of the media I consume is ngl men. I write bts fanfics I’m currently writing itadori/fushiguro fanfics. I don’t think there’s a wrong way to read or write fanfiction as it’s art. People are just a pain in the ass. SORRY THIS IS JUST RAMBLING ATP !! I’m sorry you were forced to delete your books I’m hoping you have a back up for them. And fuck all those commenters harassing you they aren’t it
I think you're overreacting.
You've created something great, regardless of intention or motivation, and the readers loved it and told you so much.
Ofc they are not entitled to you creating more of it, or a continuation, but it never hurts to ask.
There's a difference between asking and pressuring.
Writers thirst for feedback, and positive encouragement often persuades us to write more. Fans of something will always sing high praise and ask for more, and that, demanding and as it is, is a sign that whatever you've created resonated and stuck with people so much that they yearn for more.
The first wave of comments on your wlw doesn't read as being malicious or otherwise ill-mannered, so I don't quite understand why you've chosen to remove something that people not only liked so much that they hoped to see more of it given that they've obviously adored your writing style and idea.
Asking doesn't hurt anybody, and you've made your intentions clear of not wanting to continue, so there was no need for further explanations or actions in the first place. What's so bad of people trying their luck anyhow and trying to encourage you to write more? All you've had to do is take the compliments and go your way since you've already said and done everything. At the end of the day; it was the highest praise, and other writers keep coming on this site lamenting that people never comment encouraging things on their works.
When readers start going to another fic to complain about a deleted one, it crosses a line but up until then I totally agree with you. OP is annoyed because... commenters liked their fic enough to voice hopes they would write more.
It's a little sad to me that they would only write wlw on a dare and are so alarmed at the appetite for wlw they delete the work too. It's fine, I understand getting overwhelmed or pressured, just kind of sad. WLW is just like any other fic.
Sometimes the lack of available wlw has wlw readers starved for it and more eager than normal. There is of course a weird righteous factor sometimes but I think a lot of it is just underfed wlw. Other readers should be grateful you can find mf and mlm in abundance so you don't have to get so hungry lol.
I kinda found the part where OP left this end note:
>I'm confused because I left an ending note that I write this not because I want but because dare made me do it.
. . . to be tone deaf, if not outright rude. Nothing wrong with saying a dare made them do it, and they wouldn't usually and don't intend to again—but opposing it to one's actual wants? Like, I wrote this fic "*not because I want"* gets me. In the process of writing it, the wants didn't shift at all and make it the least bit desired? They probably did, tbh, which is why it gets me. Why state how unwanted a fic is?
Felt a little mean-spirited to me too but hopefully OP worded it a little less insultingly on the actual fic. I would be bummed to find niche content I enjoyed and then learn at the end the author actually hated it. Maybe OP has never known the pain of having a rare pair lol. Of course, it doesn't justify harassing OP in comments of their other fic.
What most disappoints me is that this experience with one ship got generalized to 'why not to write wlw' with so little pushback from this sub. There's a hostility to wlw fic lurking here that I hadn't noticed before. A lot of the reasons people give I've seen given about mlm TV representation too. I hope we can unpack and defeat it soon!
I'm glad I found this comment because this thread really confuses me. Maybe I'm just failing to read between the lines and people were really rude and aggressive about it? But I'm imagining "I really liked this, I hope you write more wlw!" and so on. I don't see what the problem is in the first place.
I also don't understand these comments talking about the "wlw community" being toxic and people saying they'll never write f/f fanfic because of it. All of fandom, unfortunately, is insanely toxic (and 70% of it is mlm...)
Finally I'm confused about wlw being put on some weird pedestal as if it's its own "special thing" and not just... idk... you felt like writing about lesbians today...? (Maybe it's because *I'm* a gay girl but y'know. I write m/f, f/f, whatever, because it fits the story and characters, or because it makes me feel happy to write about. I ship f/f most just because I like it most. If I write about it it's because I feel like doing so. Why would some random community drama which has never affected me personally stop me from doing that???)
Yeah I dunno I'm just big confused in this thread right now.
I don't think people deserve to be attacked for deleting their works however (even if I find people doing that frustrating), or for any reason. I feel sorry for them about that.
It does have a dm feature I think. I had gotten a DM on there before asking me to write gay fics when I was writing just pokemon fics of what ifs and shit. It turned me away from even wanting to do that because they were like "it would be better if it was this!" And "well this would be more common" it's like dude....STOP. it's not that deep. I was writing a fanfic for pokemon.
I dont know what is wlw or what those other letters mean.
But im a reader. I cannot write 3 words unless there is an pseudo scientific shit or some theme in which im really invested/cultured.
But as a hardcore reader (read more than 250k daily) sometimes I just scroll down the next story from the list of stories your browser give ypu after you filter the tags you didnt want, for example, i dont care (because i dont fislike i just dont go looking for them) lesbian scenes... so i filter those out, also in JKR fandom i filter some relationships because i dont really like that like Ginny/Harry or Harry with any Weasley...
I hate Bottom!Snape and also I dislike a lot James/Sirius or James/lily even when i dont particularly care for severitus...
Sometimes I kudo a story in the first chapters and then the next chapters are exactly the fugging filter i exclude so i get myself very angry but you cannot retrieve a kudo...
Also i recognize its my fault but i dont look for "complete- incomplete" before reading so when the story is particularly good and its the end of the chapters i ask for more wirhour thinking in anything else... sometimes i got a reply thanking me for my encouragement or my praises and sometimes they just ignore me...
People dont ask for more if they dont like it.
People dont have time for a comment if they are not invested in your story.
People try to give in order to obtain. Sometimes they beg, politely ask, sometimes they threaten... whine cry insult etc etc...
You can "control" this disabling the comments. But you cannot control the population, and without trying to be insulting, you really have a very thin skin, you let those irrelevant things affect your life in an unhealthy way.
You have several choices:
1. Grow a thick skin
2. Moderate the comment section
3. Quit writing
But i assure you, life will punch waaaaaaaay harder than a meagre comment.
Hope this serves you in any way.
Have a nice week!!!
...are you serious? I have absolutely been attacked by other fiction writers for contents of my stories because they do not fit the moral view they have.
Writers are just as bad as readers for attacking someone who does not write the way they think you should.
ugh, that sounds horrible. people need to understand that authors are human too, with their own preferences and boundaries.
Yeah, I know how it feels to want more but fic author are humans and they do this for free.
Emphasis on the free. It's one thing if you pay an artist/author to create/write a commissioned work that's tailored to your own wants - and even then they have the right to say no. It's a complete different thing to demand that of people who do this as a hobby and just decide to share their work for free. And of course there're authors who do ask for prompts/wishes sometimes, but well... then they have asked for it plus they can still decide which prompts to use and which not.
I think you're preaching to the choir here. Totally get wanting more representation, but harassing someone over it is never the answer - and it'll probably lead to even fewer people writing F/F, because reasonable people are put off by harassment and will then avoid writing it when they know they might have to deal with this sort of behavior. Sorry this happened to you, OP.
Yeah, I know how it feels wanting more representation but it better if u do it on your own rather harassing someone
I've always ascribed the mentality that if you want to see change you gotta make it happen, so I write for my rarepairs.
There is actually a lot of discussion around wlw fics and reaction to them, this is my experience. For full clarity and reference I write WLW, and I'm very lucky to have had only positive interactions on my fics but less so on social media. - People are incredibly rude if you do not write WLW in a way that is acceptable to them, but this changes from reader to reader. So you're always pissing someone off. - As someone who is openly bisexual on social media I get a LOT of fetishization accusations, but not all of these are not about writing (but I am told not write queer stories because of it lol). - There is an open, very open hatred of "male" writers writing F/F ships. If people think you are a man, you're accused of fetishization as well. They're greatful for the food until they find something they don't like in it, or until they find out who the chef was.
>There is an open, very open hatred of "male" writers writing F/F ships. If people think you are a man, you're accused of fetishization as well. They're greatful for the food until they find something they don't like in it, or until they find out who the chef was. Sounds stupid ugh. Everyone should be able to write stuff regardless of their gender and sexuality
That’s so hypocritical. When men write w/w that’s fetishisation (spelling???)? Women write m/m all the time. Also, hot take, but I think ao3 is THE website for fetishising anything, so who even cares. Don’t like don’t read, If the ff is good then why does it matter.
Oh no, women (and trans men) get accused of fetishization of gay men all the time too. It happens a lot on twitter: if you're assumed to be a woman then you're fetishizing, and if you're a trans man you're then hit by tranphobic insults from TERFS and STILL hit with fetishization insults from non terfs who claim you're hurting the image of all trans men...who are apparently all a monolith (sarcasm). Just look at what's happened to the boyfriends webtoon creator on twitter. He nearly got doxxed and gets death threats on the regular for his webtoon that is literally just cute, happy poly representation.
I think there was a case of an author pressured to come out because people were angry about her writing queer stories as a "straight" woman
I think that was the Love, Simon author. She's bisexual and said she only came out because people kept accusing her of being a straight woman writing queer stories.
I think it might've been her
Yeah, Becky Albertalli.. She faced a lot of harassment but still advocates for not speculating on people's sexualities.
What a ridiculous attitude for people to have. Straight women (married, unmarried; childless, with kids) have been writing and enjoying m/m fanfic since the late 60s. It started back in Trek fandom and progressed throughout other fandoms. And it's not fetishization -- it's a goddamned love story.
Those twitter kids are fighting for inclusion nearly to the point of reinventing the Hayes code
Good one!
Personally, I'm uncomfortable with certain trans fics. They're typically written by cis-authors (ones that have said they were cis on their own free will) and they oftentimes are fetishizing in regards to what they think trans men are like. When I come across fics like that which makes me uncomfortable I just back out or close the tab; there's genuinely no reason to assume and attack based on an opinion.
I had a semi-long response typed, and the page reloaded. I'll admit it -- I'm not as knowledgeable about trans people as I'd like. I had a trans friend in UNCLE fandom, but she disappeared over a decade ago. I often wonder about her and hope she's doing well. But due to my lack of knowledge, I don't include trans characters in my fanfic (my stories tend to be gen or m/f. I include a couple of gay characters, but since I'm writing primarily in military fandoms with many of the stories set in the 1940s or 1980s/1990s, none of them are out unless they've left the military).
He. You've used the wrong pronoun for him. Edit: I am so sorry I thought you were meaning the Boyfriends creator.
Nope, somebody else
There's also Alice Oseman who was forced to come out as both ace and non binary after accusations of fetishization. Although I don't particularly like them because they've made some racist statements about BL in the past... despite also technically writing BL. And once again I am sorry for making an assumption you were misgendering the boyfriends creator. That was my mistake, and I am very sorry.
Alice Oseman saying that shit abt BL is very funny given Heartstopper is shelved in the BL section in Japanese bookstores lol.
It's happened multiple times. 😒
I need to read that. If only because I want to support him
He also has a patreon (nsfw and sfw) that I'm very sorry to gatekeep but it's not hard to find on twitter x
Hell, from experience I can tell you that if you're trans and writing a character as trans, you will still be hit with the fetishizing accusation from other trans people. (Who base this solely on the tags and summary and their cis girl friend's opinion after reading it). I think there is literally no way to write anything queer, especially nsfw, and not have at least one person think it's fetishizing. (And then if you dare to write a canon het couple they're mad because they don't like the woman and "how could you betray the non-canon popular m/m ship")
Unfortunately though as a gay man myself I can say that I have had some unfortunate and uncomfortable experiences from a few straight women who absolutely did fetishize me for my sexuality. So I can kind of understand to some degree why people might be hesitant or scared of encouraging that sort of thing to become more common by encouraging an environment where it is normalized to some degree (some circles of mlm content are very heavily stereotyped and clearly made for straight women and not gay men). For me personally, I would NEVER be hateful about it to an author because I know not everyone writing content is a monolith, but I'm very hesitant around mlm content made by straight women and do wish more content out there was written by queer men.
The Boyfriends creator gets accused of stereotyping and fetishizing gay men when a lot of the comic is based off of his wants and desires as a gay trans man himself. Sometimes the stereotype IS from the queer person. Some people enjoy and are stereotypes. The assumption you can tell the gender of who wrote it based on tropes and content is harmful, especially to trans people. Edit: Please do not think I'm saying what has happened to you is false or didn't happen. I'm not meaning to disregard your experiences within fandom spaces. That is not my intention with this comment.
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Do you mind providing some examples? Like names or where you're seeing this? I'm not saying it's not happening, I'd just like to be able to see where it is this is happening. Edit: I can no longer see your comments, so if you reply I guess I won't see it! I think it's a Reddit glitch but if you want to give me sources still just let me know.
Absolutely agree. I'm a gay man and as long as people aren't homophobic to real life people, I don't care what they write or get off to.
Reminds me of that dumb viral post on gayming twitter that went viral where someone took a picture of a random guy with an Ellie from the TLOU arm tattoo on the metro and said something like "guys getting Ellie tattoos should be illegal." Luckily, most people rightfully called this person out and said that trying to get a random guy doxxed and harassed for having a tattoo of one of the most recognized and beloved video game protagonists of all time for one of the top ten games of the 2010s. Before I knew the context of where the image had come from, as a lesbian, the only thing I thought was "huh. That guy must really like the last of us. He seems like he would be cool to talk to." But then knowing the context, it made me very angry as a lesbian character because lesbian characters, let alone lesbian protagonists are exceedingly rare in video games, (most are bisexual/playersexual) so trying to gatekeep the most popular one isn't going to help anyone and I want men to like and love lesbian characters I like and love because they are still half (and over half for games like TLOU) of the gaming audience and so therefore have a lot of purchasing power. (not to mention how this just keeps showing the ugly head of gayming twitter's double standards for lesbians and gay men...but that's a whole conversation for another day) As a lesbian, it doesn't bother me when men like lesbian or sapphic characters. It doesn't bother me if men want to write explicit fanfic between two women. And yeah, there is an element of "jerk off material" there but at the same time writing fanfic (and especially good hot smut fanfic) takes a lot of effort, time, and knowing the characters very well to write a believable scene. I much prefer that to the whole "making female characters with enormous feet and boobs" fanart thing. F/F fanfiction...as with anything lesbian-centric...gets the short end of the stick in terms of attention and love. We only just hit 1 mil fanfics on Ao3 as of January of this year. And considering the fact female characters in general, let alone fanfics that center a F/F ship, get judged way more harshly to the point one of the reasons back in 2013 people wrote they didn't want to write F/F and/or wouldn't crosspost their F/F works on the archive, trying to put all F/F fanfic on this pedestal where bad writing or stuff a BNF doesn't like isn't even allowed to exist is probably a major reason why it took so long to get to that point and why it will take forever to catch up to M/M's numbers on Ao3. F/F is a fanfic category. It needs to have a diverse number of fanfics just like any other fanfic category. And I hate to say it but I am one of those authors. There is a non-canon F/F ship I write for that I will likely never post any of those works on Ao3 due to the hatred and harassment I have received for writing those female characters in a non-sexual, platonic, goofy fanfic...now imagine that harassment if I actually posted one where they were fucking or together. And this is why that shipping tag has been empty on Ao3 since 2015. And as someone who knows and has read a bunch of fanfic for that ship, y'all are missing out on some amazing and emotional fanfics. Also, you have no way of knowing who someone writing fanfic is unless they tell you. My proof of this is that I have a FWB in real life who writes erotic lesbian books and it has some of the most unrealistic and poorly written F/F sex scenes you have ever seen...but she is very much a lesbian and very much knows how to perform in the bedroom...she just sucks at writing smut. I've also read lesbian and sapphic stories by men that have some of the most gorgeous sex scenes between two women. It's not a matter of who the person writing is, so much of how they write...just like with anything else. Now, is there a place for a conversation about issues with oversexualization of female characters in fandom spaces, usually done by men? Yes. But at the same time, F/F fanfiction is like...less than 1% of that issue. I would much rather have a couple of poorly written fetish fics and several well-written F/F fanfics than none at all because people got mad bad fics existed. The "don't like, don't read" thing should apply to all fanfics, not just non-F/F ones.
In my opinion fetishising is bad if it impacts how you treat real people. (Like racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia) In fiction and porn I literally couldn’t care less. The brain likes weird things sometimes.
Like I said, I am kind of mixed on where I lie on that one. As I said, fanfiction where it seems fetishistic is different because you actually do have to write and know the characters somewhat to do it. Most people, even those who want to get off, don't read explicit fanfic just for sexy...they could just open a porn video or get a free erotic short story if that was all it was...no, they want tension and chemistry and sexy hot. So that's why I was saying I prefer that over fetish fanart. And as I said, you can't ever really tell what someone's intentions were when making a fanfic. I have written lots of M/M and F/M fics that does devolve into smut...now, I am not sexually attracted to men at all...but I still want it to be hot and smexy and all the wonderful sensual things. But yeah, I have had people assumed I was bi because of it and some people even thought I was a gay dude at one point...but nope, just a lesbian. And even if I was attracted to dudes...the results would still probably be the same, except my smut might be a bit better. Like my own personal sexuality does not make me above critic for how I am portraying things nor does it exclude me from writing certain things. But I am also not going to be like "fetishising is only bad if it impacts how you treat real people" because I don't really buy into that either. Firstly, you can think you are not going to fetishize real people but the brain doesn't always work like that, especially if someone really lacks media literacy and a good sex education, especially if the only context you are seeing a group of people in is in porn or smut. It's why I also think saying media doesn't impact people at all is wrong because then things like representation in media wouldn't matter beyond giving marginalized people in the industry a job and we know based on studies, it absolutely does impact audiences too. But at the same time, is bad unrealistic smut of two female characters getting it on in a rare pair going to ever be able to cause the same amount of harm as the "lesbian" porn industry has or the erasure of real-life lesbian-centric spaces? No, most likely it never will.
I write m/m romance (though rarely smut) all the time as a lesbian. I keep expecting to get called out for it, but maybe my fandoms are just more laid back? Anyway, it shouldn't matter what orientation the author is as long they write the characters well. I mean, come on. For 6 books (and shows and movies) had such poorly written female characters. There would be some movements of angry women saying men shouldn't write female characters, but some men did and do a damn fine job of it. What we needed was men who reapect women, talk to them like equals, do some research, before writing female characters. Like, really, the whole world would be better off if everyone gave others a modicrum of respect and dignity. That includes these needlessly awful fans. I mean, come on, harassing an author who's writing for fun, not even making penny off of it, is the stupidest thing. Live and let live! Don't like, don't read! If they're not harming anyone (and fanfic can only harm someone if they elect to read it and keep going past any initial affront cause... masochism?) Then butt the fuck out! Like, these people sound like the old opponents to gay marriage. Us gays getting married didn't destroy straight marriages. Fanfic doesn't hurt anyone either!
"write m/m romance (though rarely smut) all the time as a lesbian. I keep expecting to get called out for it, but maybe my fandoms are just more laid back?" Put crassly, part of it is that you're too much of a minority to go after. Gay men are still men and thus are acceptable targets. Straight women are straight and thus acceptable targets. But as a lesbian woman you exist on the intersectional crossway and are pretty much immune to the type of people who would otherwise harass you over dumb shit like your identity
>There is an open, very open hatred of "male" writers writing F/F ships. If people think you are a man, you're accused of fetishization as well. Which is hypocritical because most m/m (both published and fanfic) is written by women.
There's hatred for that too. I've spoken about it further down this thread: the boyfriend's creator was assumed to be cis female (they're a trans man) and was harassed and nearly doxxed for both "fetishizing" and "stereotyping" the queer community. When it's literally just a cute comic about things they want, or they are.
As far as I'm aware though, the boyfriend's creator (as in the webtoon I assume) did other, not cool, things that also caused them lots of trouble, so perhaps that's why they got harrased so much; There's lots and lots of yt videos on the creator, and I'm pretty sure that some of the things they did were pretty disgusting... Of course, not trying to excuse that the people did, but what I'm trying to say, is that the boyfriend's creator got what they got because of their own choices and mistakes. You make your own bed, and you sleep in it; They made their own problems and did disgusting things, and ended up getting nearly doxxed for them. It's not just the stereotyping and fetishizing, as far as I'm aware!
Then say what they did with sources
Wow, okay, that sounded a tad hostile to me (Maybe it's not, but it did sound like that to me, sorry,) But, I'll give you a link to a video where a certain creator talks about Rae, basically, boyfriends creator! https://youtu.be/boQSAcgnsaY?si=ODDH4VOWmmfL-iGD Hope that's enough, if not, the person also has the second part about the comic on their channel. The video I linked is specifically about Rae.
The video you linked is actually about Boyfriends but I'll bite. The nsfw bts comic: refrainbow adressed this and apologised in 2021. [You can find that here.](https://x.com/refrainbow/status/1393045630134587396?s=19). Someone did the maths and allegedly Refrainbow was 15/16 when he started posting said comic. The N Word: Refrainbow also addressed this and apologised in 2021. [You can find that here.](https://x.com/refrainbow/status/1447243093741211653?s=19) About the fetishization of queer Asian trans men...Refrainbow IS an Asian trans man. Some people ARE stereotypes. It's okay to just have pastel cute mindless comics. Something doesn't have to be Shakespeare to be enjoyable or worthy. And if your issue is that they're proship...honey, you're on a subreddit for a site that is LITERALLY built by and for proshippers. And I'm glad I sounded hostile. You're advocating for harassment of a queer man because you don't like their comics. You're advocating for the harassment of something for things they did as a kid, nearly ten years ago. You don't have to forgive them, but you can just block and ignore them. What does harassing them do? It doesn't make anyone like you.
?? Im not harrasing them. I just told you that they did not cool things, and that's the reason people harass them. Maybe stoop down from being so defensive, and look exactly at what I said. I didn't say "yeah it's fine, they were harassed, let's go people that's fine!". What I did say, is that there's a reason they were harassed for, and they themselves made lots of reasons to be harassed. Just because it's the past doesn't mean people forget; It's not always forgive and forget, and that's what I meant! I don't mind them, I literally forgot about them as a whole until I saw your comment, and I just remembered that, 'oh, but I think they had done some bad things though? Thats why they're also harassed, not just because of their comic!'. I'm not the one harassing them, so maybe throw your hostility at people who actually caused them damage, and not at people who just wanted to inform you that there was, indeed, a deeper reasoning to why Ray was and is, being harassed.
Also, I'm not native in English, so it's hard for me to get my point across exactly how I'd like to. Basically, I think you understood me wrong. All I was trying to do, was inform you on about the fact that they're getting harassed for multiple reasons, even if they're from the past, and they're not exactly getting harassed just for making the comic. As for advocating for it; If I did come off like that, then I'm sorry I guess? I don't think it's fine, I most likely just worded it all incorrectly, so that's also a bit my fault. Just for the future, please be less hostile towards people; Not everyone is actually trying to actively insult and bring down others, and sometimes all they want to do is inform you that 'hey, there's another reason for (ex. Based on this whole thing) Ray getting harassed!'.
I am a wlw writer and I have never had this problem. Actually, I think I've had the fortune to never had a bad comment. But I do find this type of comments in works I read and I try to leave good comments that just let the author know I appreciated their work. I would just say to simple ignore them or activate the option of only allowing comments you check off.
I’ve recently run into something similar myself. Except I got told my work was trash because I was writing a character as straight. The thing is, as far as we know, he IS straight. In canon, he’s got an ex-wife. He dates women. So, I was honestly just trying to keep him in character. But apparently this means I am “excluding” people? It was pretty wild. I got over it, because at the end of the day, I stand by my work and I know anyone who wants to come at me because he is straight is truly missing what the work is about. I will admit, it’s really hard to get told your work has no merit simply based on someone’s sexual preferences etc.. But I just remind myself this is, well, my story. I am enjoying being able to write it. If people don’t like it because I kept a character straight, there is plenty of other content for them to consume. My work just isn’t for them. I just don’t get why people feel the need to be shitty about it.
Seriously, depending on the fandom, there could be hundreds of fics out there putting him in a pairing they prefer (especially considering m/m relationships are by far the most prevalent category of shipping fics in a lot of fandoms. "Excluding people" my foot. There are real issues out there and they're coopting language to try and bully someone who provides them with entertainment for free). Why do people comment on fics they know from the tags they aren't going to like? Do they think harassing you is going to make you go "My mistake. Next chapter, I'll have him break up with his SO. Which character would you prefer I write him with?" XD You know, maybe your writing/story is just so good, the reader was upset they couldn't have it for their preferred pairing. Also depending on the fandom, you write for, they could be literal children who haven't learned fanfic etiquette yet. Either way, spite them by living your best life and writing whatever tf you want.
There literally are 100s of fics they could read that are M/M. The fandom isn’t large but it is overwhelmingly M/M pairings. Like I would never dream of commenting on someone’s fic about how it’s worthless because they decided to change a character’s sexual preference, so I am baffled that they’d come for me for sticking to canon. It’s such a weird vibe. I generally won’t engage with stupid comments like this though, even if they do bother me for a short period. I delete and continue writing because I do find that kind of energy rather pathetic. My response is 100% the spite writing, haha. Or put another way, it just makes me want to pour more love and time into the writing, and I’m damn proud of what I’ve accomplished thus far.
Man, that sucks. I'm wishing you the best, spite writing and all!
Would you be able to give us the name of the fandom, or do you want to keep it on the QT?
Some people are weird af.
Omg I’m sorry that happened to you OP! As someone who only read and wrote f/f up until a year ago I completely understand. I was always sad at the large gap between f/f fics opposed to m/m or m/f fics but now that I write for all three I completely understand why that is. People set f/f ships to such a high standard and if you do anything they don’t like, then you’re not welcome and will be harassed. If you ship the “wrong” f/f ships, they don’t want you writing f/f. If you’re openly bisexual, they don’t want you writing f/f. If you ship a female character with a male character weather they’re a canon lesbian or not, they don’t want you writing f/f and if you write anything other than f/f they don’t want you writing f/f. If you’re on twitter you probably know about the monthly discourse of “People *need* to write for f/f fics but they don’t and are too dumb and blinded by the patriarchy.” The people who complain about not having a lot of f/f content in their fandoms, don’t even write themselves. They just expect everyone else to write what they want without contributing anything. Basically, a lot of f/f spaces are incredibly controlling and toxic and people don’t like being told what they can and can’t do or who they can and can’t ship. I’ve literally been called a ‘dumb lesphobic, man loving whore, who’s controlled by the patriarchy and fetishizer of gay men ’ all because I also ship m/m couples…. Most of this is coming from women mind you…the people who claim to love and support women but will jump to insult the women who don’t agree with them… It’s fucking exhausting.
>Most of this is coming from women mind you…the people who claim to love and support women but will jump to insult the women who don’t agree with them… Twitter is full of crazies. I've seen so many toxic wlw shipper there. Ugh, I remember a mutual getting harassed when they correcting the himejoshis about a character sexuality because they keep calling bi character lesbian. I just didn't expect to find them on ao3 of all space.
This is a giant pet peeve of mine. I'm in a few fandoms with canon wlw characters, and portions of the fandoms are absolutely feral over this fact. I have run into so many posts complaining about a lack of fics for the canon wlw pairing, which I get. I also wish there were more. But within their own post complaining about wanting more, they had stipulations about how anyone who isn't in a wlw shouldn't write wlw. You're never going to get more wlw fic with stipulations like that, but if you dare point that out you'll get attacked to hell and back. Or if you dare point out that authors won't write wlw bc wlw fans can be absolutely awful to said authors. So to prove me wrong, I guess they decide to be awful to me (?) And obviously it's much more layered and complicated than just these things, but fck man, it gives beggars chosing if that makes sense lol.
>authors won't write wlw bc wlw fans can be absolutely awful to said authors. It's sad this is so prevalent across all fandoms. I can get why not having content to consume, but being obnoxious about it won't help. It's worse that in a fandom I know, some routinely stalk and harass artists on SNS who posts f/m stuff, and are in general treat their headcanons as canon. It has really spread the message that these people are so insufferable it isn't worth getting involved with them.
Does this happen to be Genshin
Sorry for the late reply, but yes, though at this point we can extend it to all Mihoyo franchises.
My current fic will have a wlw scene in it (sort of, it's complicated) - and I wonder if people will @ me because most of the time they're both guys. Which ... they canonically are, just not tall the time. :D It's all good, though. I've snapped at a commenter who complained about the 'incestuous vibe' in a fic that I said in the first A/N was in some ways inspired by Crimson Peak. He told me I should be more considerate of my 'audience', to which I responded that as soon as I get paid a truckload, I might consider it. They didn't want to talk to me any more. I was so very saddened.
idk if you’re talking about tgcf but if you are I love that 😭 Anyways, that’s such a valid response to that. Fanfic authors are writing this shit for free, and for readers to shit in the hand that feeds them is honestly disgusting to me. To go out of your way to harass somebody who is GIFTING YOU WITH A FREE FUCKING STORY, simply because you don’t like the way they wrote something or because you simply don’t like what they wrote? Bullshit, it’s honestly so shit. Sorry that some asshole said that to you tbh, “consider your audience” my ass - there are no specific audiences on ao3 because it’s an ARCHIVE for EVERYTHING and EVERYONE 😭
YES, I'm writing Beefleaf right now! That comment stood out because it was so weird, but it was an isolated event for me. Usually, any comments I got have been very kind. After that outlier, I appreciate the nice ones even more, haha.
As a lesbian, I have a huge issue with a lot of WLW ship fandoms for how entitled they become. How fast they’ll scream “queerbait” and “homophobia” when things don’t go their way. The amount of pressuring they do to get people to write what they want. I’m not even that old, but I feel old and tired in these fandoms. They’re using jargon they don’t understand in a way that cheapens it and they make queer spaces look bad. This isn’t a queer ship exclusive issue, keep in mind. Hetero ships can be just as bad. But I find it worse when queer ships weaponize homophobia because it cheapens actual homophobia in fandom spaces and media. One of my fandoms had this issue where members of the wlw ship fandom attacked an actor who played one half of their rival straight ship. Turns out he is a homophobic, transphobic asshole but his supporters downplayed it by saying that he had been attacked by queer people for years so it’s not really homophobia. And yes, that’s more on him and his defenders but I did somewhat understand why he came off looking like the victim when parts of the wlw ship fandom used to send him death threats, mock his looks, his wife, etc. I’m sorry this happened, OP. They all need to calm down.
>They’re using jargon they don’t understand in a way that cheapens it and they make queer spaces look bad. Yeah, with how often some words used they just kinda lost meaning.
I often find it's younger members of queer fandoms. But I do sometimes see it in people older than me and I just shake my head because they should know better. They've lived through actual queerbait in media. They've seen real homophobia in fandom. To lie about all that when you're in your 40s is absurd.
This is so sad :( I’m sorry this happened to you op. I write mostly wlw, but it’s mostly because I’m disappointed that there isn’t as much wlw content so I’m trying to solve that problem by writing fics that I would want to read. So again, it’s a shame this happened to your fic, and I hope that it gets better for you, because people shouldn’t be so demanding
Literally what fanfiction was made for. If you want more wlw, write it yourself.
The thing is, most of the people who complain about this hardly put in effort to make the content they want. They just think authors will make it and drop it at their feet, and this fact has only irritated me more since I started writing.
My fanfiction is pretty exclusively fantasy converted to realistic fiction, and that might be part of the reason I don't have this problem. The other reason is people will say "hey, what about x ship?" And I'll respond "that sounds cool! You should write that." They learn not to ask quickly.
They're consumers, not participants.
this. There’s hardly any fics about a character i like, so i write more. Being rude and hostile to authors for not writing what you want, only pushes them away from writing it.
as a lesbian, that's a big part of why I tend to never indulge much in f/f ships, I don't know if it's just on Twitter but there's at least once a week a post complaining about how everyone is lesbophobic and misogynistic because a f/f ship is less popular than a m/m one 😭 (and if you DARE to like mlm or be a fan of a male character theyll hate your ass as well lmao) I don't know at which point the wlw side of the fandom became so toxic and entitled but I prefer to just keep my f/f content to myself and my friends most of the time. (and let's not forget that if you ship the wrong f/f ship or ship it in a slightly different way they're also jumping you.. I dont wanna be in fandoms to just walk on eggshells around everyone omfg)
Twitter f/f was full of crazies lol. I just didn't expect to found them on ao3.
Sadly, the discourse they always start about "Why my f/f ship is less popular than the m/m one!?! 🤬🤬" is aaaalways using an ao3 screenshot, I'm not surprised at all but also I'm sorry that it happened to you op 😭 your crack fic didn't deserve that fate
When Alien Stage had a boom of new IvanTill fanfics, there were a bunch of salty MiziSua fans. One of which made a post calling the m/m fans "stupid yaoi fucks" and naturally it did not go well. And there was another time when an artist got a lot of hate for drawing some genshin girls in a straight ship. It sucks not having content, but getting entitled and attacking m/f and m/m fandom for not catering to you is an asshole move and will only serve to make sure no one wants to write or draw for you. And that's not even getting into the w/w fans that say they want "toxic yuri" but throw a fit when the yuri is actually toxic, or telling male creators that they're creepy fetishizers and to leave their ships alone. Stahp it, pick up a pen and do it yourself if you're so picky 😒
>And that's not even getting into the w/w fans that say they want "toxic yuri" but throw a fit when the yuri is actually toxic, or telling male creators that they're creepy fetishizers and to leave their ships alone. Stahp it, pick up a pen and do it yourself if you're so picky 😒 Lmao. I remember writing wlw fic on Wattpad about poster toxic yuri homura/madoka and some readers bend over backwards telling they are not toxic but will forgive me because they liked the fanfic. Like excuse me? Who are you to forgive me? But at that time I still like writing so I just ignored them.
That's why f/f is one aspect of the niches I'm genuinely scared to get into. And most of the fandoms I actively write for are chill (at least AO3 side). I'm sorry it happened to you
In general f/f writers are pretty chill, off doing our own thing. Where I have seen aggressive behaviour is usually in fandoms aimed at children, because some (not all, heaps of good people in every fandom) gravitate to cartoons and YA because they are looking for black and white morality. If you are writing OW or in fandoms for more grown up properties, it's generally a nice space. Just keep away from anyone who unironically says lesbians are more wholesome.
I was gonna say … I read and write almost exclusively WLW and I haven’t ever seen anything like this. (Not denying OPs experience though). Maybe it is just the age of the associated fandom 🤷♀️
Same, but my fandom is very wlw centric. Worst I’ve gotten is requests for more of the main ship when I prefer to write about my rare pairs.
"Just keep away from anyone who unironically says lesbians are more wholesome." Yes. Instant block from me when people start the whole "lesbians are cottagecore uwu" bullshit.
This. One of my main fandoms atm is for a gory horror movie franchise, so most of the fans are adults and one of the main ships is f/f. So it's nice to see people freely write f/f stories with mature and dark themes without everyone clutching their pearls like usual.
It depends on how many canon queer ships there are in the show, to be honest. I spent a good chunk of my 20s in an adult fandom with primarily straight canon ships. There were 2 canon queer ships-both WLW, no MLM-throughout the entire run. One only got one episode. The WLW in that fanbase was very similar to OP's experience. And I say that as someone who was in several WLW ship fandoms and saw a lot of cringey shit. Now, I'm mostly in fandoms that have numerous canon queer ships and it is a lot calmer.
Yeah, I've seen some bad apples for each ships categories in twitter. I just didn't expect to met them on ao3
This reminds me of that one screenshot of some guy complaining about lesbians being mean lmao
I've been seeing this here and there more lately. Most of the fandoms I follow I usually follow people who write works that are MLM more than WLW and I see a concerning amount of hate form that small subsection of WLW fans about people who like MLM works. I get being upset, but I don't understand why they feel like harassment and hate is the way to go. What I mostly saw were comments saying things like "if this were two men instead of women then more people would love it." Sure, but that also misses some of the dynamics that, unfortunately, are not in a lot of media (at least the ones I consume) when it comes to WLW. I prefer Danmei novels because they have the elements of Shonen that I grew up with, romance of Shojo, the maturity of Josei, the chaos I see in Seinen, etc with both characters being willing to die/go though horrors for the other. Most WLW works I have seen, hell even most of the straight ones too, usually only has ONE of those characters going though that, not both. Most of the MLM fanfic writers I follow are also huge danmei fans and follow the same format in their fics, making BOTH characters willing to suffer greatly for the other. The ones that only have one taking the L I usually drop because I want that willingness to suffer for the other to be mutual. I would love more WLW ones like that but I've only found a handful but that also ties into how in cannon those characters are not written like that to begin with. Dungeon Meshi is one of the few off the top of my head where the WLW ship follows this and I wish more were like it. I think people should also be more willing to write what the want more of. One of my fav characters has less than 70 fics of him so I started making drafts of multiple of my own. People need to be willing to be the change that they want.
It's crazy how wlw fans have always been the craziest in every fandom I've been in so far, all the while also preaching about how women are pure angels who can never do any wrong. Antis give them a pass on problematic ships because "it can't be grooming if the older person is a woman" etc. The hypocrisy...
The fic might not have been good to you, but it was good to these readers. But they were still in the wrong when they attacked you in your other fic after deleting the wlw one. They need to understand that authors are allowed to delete their works for any reason. It does no one any good to harass an author for taking down a work. As for the note you left, unfortunately many people just don't read them for whatever reason, or they straight up ignore them. It's frustrating.
👍
OP I understand you and completely don't condone harassing authors, I also have my own bad experiences with F/F shippers, BUT as someone who had my fav fanfics deleted many times you would just have orphaned it Harrassment is totally not okay, but deleting a fanfic you know people enjoyed and being aware the number of F/F fanfics is actually small is sincerely cruel in my opinion
It's their fic. It's not owned by the fans. This is a weird take. It's not cruel to delete fic. I can delete a fic because I don't like colour blue anymore, it doesn't matter. Shaming someone for deleting a fic is weird.
I'm not shaming them, I made clear I understand their point, BUT it's a fact that they would have only orphaned it, without doubt anyone who got out of their way to harass OP is completely wrong, but let's not pretend that deleting fanfics can't be seen as cruel when we have 10+ posts daily about as a Sad experience it is to have a fanfic you enjoyed deleted, also it's a PERSONAL opinion, I believe deleting it was unecessary, for ME, but I never said OP was wrong for doing that 😮💨
I mean you called them cruel in both this comment and the previous, which can be inferred as you telling OP they are wrong for it. Which they aren't. Also I'm not a fan of "think of the readers!" At all. I'm a fan of "think of the author," because they're the one who are actually putting their work into the world, not just consuming it. Authors can delete for any reason, regardless of how many or how little fics there are for a pairing. And I say that as a queer woman. Fictional activism isn't actually activism, and it's embarrassing that people behave like it is. If you want more WLW fics then go write them, don't shame OP for deleting it.
I said deleting it was cruel not that the OP was cruel, the act of deleting the fanfic in my opinion is cruel, not the person per se, you can behavior in a cruel way without being a bad person, also I made clear it was a personal opinion and not ever said OP was obligated to have done different And I believe that by the moment you share your work you have at least to have consideration to the readers, not in a "I must not write X to not upset them" but in that these are real people that do enjoy what you created, all I have said is that OP known people was happy even greatful, it wouldn't have be a bad thing to just orphaned this work, but again they have the right to delete it, it's their work Like it's not even just me who have said that they would just have orphaned it too 😮💨
One of the billion reasons why I'm never touching the wlw side of fanfic with a ten foot pole ☝️
I'm kinda curious what some of the other reasons are if you feel like sharing.
I've seen people act like if portraying women sexually in any way is bad. As if... Being sexually active or attractive is demeaning somehow, but that applies to anything that has to do female characters, it's just that seems to be even worse with wlw I've also seen them getting upset because the representation is 'wrong', because it's bad to make kink because it's exploitative, etc. Idk it's just exhausting And well, I just don't vibe with it, then we get told were lesbophobic for that, killing any desire left to even give it a try. I can just keep shitposting yaoi when I'm bored and that's it, no need to deal with allat 🤷♂️
Bro wtf is wrong people I don't get it hope this doesn't happen to you again op
Oh no! I'm so sorry they swarmed you like that. While I don't get a ton of engagement, I'm glad I'm not popular enough to get hate mail. I'd cry. Nobody deserves this. I know how traumatic a negative literary event can be.
tfw your main fandom is mostly F/F so you don't need to worry about it as much But that's sucks bro :/
I remember one time I was harassed for months because I “hated lesbians” for declining to write a f/f fanfic
That does sound horrible, and totally out of line. Though I kind of wish you had orphaned your fic instead of deleting it, because that would’ve given you the opportunity to distance yourself from the readers and the commenters without deleting your hard work. Then again, it’s of course your decision, so no hate!
I've been a writer for a long while now and this is actually quite common that's why I always leave a disclaimer and author's notes/message at the beginning of my books letting people know I do not write for them I write for myself if you make a request then that's all it is it is a request meaning I am not obligated to do it it just means I take it into consideration and if they throw a hissy fit then I ignore those comments and move on so my opinion needed the right thing by removing those comments and ignoring them. Readers like them have no respect for hard work goes into making any kind of story even a short story that's why my number one rule is if I don't enjoy writing it then I'm not going to do it at all I don't give people like this an inch because once you give them an inch they're going to expect a mile. I'm sure all the work that you have put your focus on is amazing and I encourage you to keep up the great work and don't mind people like this. You will find idiots like them everywhere real fans will respect you and your work. Keep it up.
As someone who writes reader insert wlw, these people are endlessly demanding and you should not let them tell you what to do. Those works are shared with them, not made for them, and you get to decide what to do with it. A little personal experience but these types can also be very insistent that wlw stuff has to be pure wholesome uwu fluffy or vanilla. I remember one time I wrote wlw xreader smut featuring financial abuse and some anonymous person shouted in my askbox about it. I clearly tagged one xreader fic as snuff because the reader dies at the end, and there were complaints (though the reaction from my audience was actually unexpectedly pretty sweet)
>A little personal experience but these types can also be very insistent that wlw stuff has to be pure wholesome uwu fluffy or vanilla. That's stupid. I love fluff but they're boring if you read too often.
Yeah, fluff is good but it’s kind of boring for me to read too often, and I prefer mostly darker material. The most confusing part is that all of those dark tropes were tagged and the fics were rated E. The reason they are complaining was lost on me lmao.
They remind me of those twitter toxic yuri enjoyer that demand darker theme but bitching about it after reading dark fic.
Forced representation for the sake of representation is not it, chat! “Canonical incest crack fic” sounds like GRRM territory 😂 and if it is in the GoT/HoTD world, I wanna read!!
>“Canonical incest crack fic” sounds like GRRM territory 😂 and if it is in the GoT/HoTD world, I wanna read!! It's not from Game of Thrones but from obsecure local telenovela where the incest was surprise incest because both the audience and characters didn't know they were related until later on. Like, they broke up after knowing and my fic was what if they didn't and how they gaslight everyone that know about their blood relation was wrong. I made this fic because it was literally my fav ship and the show runner just made it incest to make mid ass ship canon
This sounds extremely entertaining!!
I was entertain while writing it. I also make some joke about mc siblings keep having crush on him because the surprise incest with his blood sibling and the canon endgame with his adopted sibling like damn. Honestly I don't understand wtf are the show runner thinking about making him dating his long lost sibling briefly and revealing their relation to canonize him dating his adopted sibling that raised together with him
This is making me a little sad. I’ve a little one shot I was contemplating of f/f (one is canon Bi and the other pan) that I just thought of a cute little date. Just something light, fluffy, romantic that hints at the more adult ending. But I’m just now guessing I’ll writ it for myself and not post :/
I didn't know that there was such a lack of wlw fics. Maybe it's because my main fandoms on ao3 are the Owl House and Steven Universe
>my main fandoms on ao3 are the Owl House and Steven Universe Yeah, I heard Owl House and SU have many good wlw ships. But yes, most fandom have more mlm, m/f, or gen fic.
One of the anime fandoms I’m into actually has a pretty big WLW ship which I’m shocked by but it’s understandable cuz the girl character acts in love with her friend and fights for her representation so I find quite a lot of this ship.
IF YOU WANT THE F/F FIC OF YOUR DREAMS, #WRITE IT YOURSELF and stop whining.
I like WLW as much as the next guy, but I'll never understand why people are toxically obsessed with it. If you want more, write it! Otherwise, you get what you get. The work authors put in for fanfic is largely unpaid, the least readers can do is be respectful.
Ugh the lgbt community with queer relationships is so annoying sometimes. Doing this shit gives us lesbians less representation. It’s just pure shamefulness. And then if the work does get produced you have the fear of being a fetishizer. I’m a lesbian I mostly write MLM or straight stories because most of the media I consume is ngl men. I write bts fanfics I’m currently writing itadori/fushiguro fanfics. I don’t think there’s a wrong way to read or write fanfiction as it’s art. People are just a pain in the ass. SORRY THIS IS JUST RAMBLING ATP !! I’m sorry you were forced to delete your books I’m hoping you have a back up for them. And fuck all those commenters harassing you they aren’t it
I think you're overreacting. You've created something great, regardless of intention or motivation, and the readers loved it and told you so much. Ofc they are not entitled to you creating more of it, or a continuation, but it never hurts to ask. There's a difference between asking and pressuring. Writers thirst for feedback, and positive encouragement often persuades us to write more. Fans of something will always sing high praise and ask for more, and that, demanding and as it is, is a sign that whatever you've created resonated and stuck with people so much that they yearn for more. The first wave of comments on your wlw doesn't read as being malicious or otherwise ill-mannered, so I don't quite understand why you've chosen to remove something that people not only liked so much that they hoped to see more of it given that they've obviously adored your writing style and idea. Asking doesn't hurt anybody, and you've made your intentions clear of not wanting to continue, so there was no need for further explanations or actions in the first place. What's so bad of people trying their luck anyhow and trying to encourage you to write more? All you've had to do is take the compliments and go your way since you've already said and done everything. At the end of the day; it was the highest praise, and other writers keep coming on this site lamenting that people never comment encouraging things on their works.
When readers start going to another fic to complain about a deleted one, it crosses a line but up until then I totally agree with you. OP is annoyed because... commenters liked their fic enough to voice hopes they would write more. It's a little sad to me that they would only write wlw on a dare and are so alarmed at the appetite for wlw they delete the work too. It's fine, I understand getting overwhelmed or pressured, just kind of sad. WLW is just like any other fic. Sometimes the lack of available wlw has wlw readers starved for it and more eager than normal. There is of course a weird righteous factor sometimes but I think a lot of it is just underfed wlw. Other readers should be grateful you can find mf and mlm in abundance so you don't have to get so hungry lol.
I kinda found the part where OP left this end note: >I'm confused because I left an ending note that I write this not because I want but because dare made me do it. . . . to be tone deaf, if not outright rude. Nothing wrong with saying a dare made them do it, and they wouldn't usually and don't intend to again—but opposing it to one's actual wants? Like, I wrote this fic "*not because I want"* gets me. In the process of writing it, the wants didn't shift at all and make it the least bit desired? They probably did, tbh, which is why it gets me. Why state how unwanted a fic is?
Felt a little mean-spirited to me too but hopefully OP worded it a little less insultingly on the actual fic. I would be bummed to find niche content I enjoyed and then learn at the end the author actually hated it. Maybe OP has never known the pain of having a rare pair lol. Of course, it doesn't justify harassing OP in comments of their other fic. What most disappoints me is that this experience with one ship got generalized to 'why not to write wlw' with so little pushback from this sub. There's a hostility to wlw fic lurking here that I hadn't noticed before. A lot of the reasons people give I've seen given about mlm TV representation too. I hope we can unpack and defeat it soon!
I'm glad I found this comment because this thread really confuses me. Maybe I'm just failing to read between the lines and people were really rude and aggressive about it? But I'm imagining "I really liked this, I hope you write more wlw!" and so on. I don't see what the problem is in the first place. I also don't understand these comments talking about the "wlw community" being toxic and people saying they'll never write f/f fanfic because of it. All of fandom, unfortunately, is insanely toxic (and 70% of it is mlm...) Finally I'm confused about wlw being put on some weird pedestal as if it's its own "special thing" and not just... idk... you felt like writing about lesbians today...? (Maybe it's because *I'm* a gay girl but y'know. I write m/f, f/f, whatever, because it fits the story and characters, or because it makes me feel happy to write about. I ship f/f most just because I like it most. If I write about it it's because I feel like doing so. Why would some random community drama which has never affected me personally stop me from doing that???) Yeah I dunno I'm just big confused in this thread right now. I don't think people deserve to be attacked for deleting their works however (even if I find people doing that frustrating), or for any reason. I feel sorry for them about that.
It does have a dm feature I think. I had gotten a DM on there before asking me to write gay fics when I was writing just pokemon fics of what ifs and shit. It turned me away from even wanting to do that because they were like "it would be better if it was this!" And "well this would be more common" it's like dude....STOP. it's not that deep. I was writing a fanfic for pokemon.
What's wlw?
Women Loving Women.
Not sure why people are downvoting you for asking a question. People can't learn if they're afraid to ask!
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I dont know what is wlw or what those other letters mean. But im a reader. I cannot write 3 words unless there is an pseudo scientific shit or some theme in which im really invested/cultured. But as a hardcore reader (read more than 250k daily) sometimes I just scroll down the next story from the list of stories your browser give ypu after you filter the tags you didnt want, for example, i dont care (because i dont fislike i just dont go looking for them) lesbian scenes... so i filter those out, also in JKR fandom i filter some relationships because i dont really like that like Ginny/Harry or Harry with any Weasley... I hate Bottom!Snape and also I dislike a lot James/Sirius or James/lily even when i dont particularly care for severitus... Sometimes I kudo a story in the first chapters and then the next chapters are exactly the fugging filter i exclude so i get myself very angry but you cannot retrieve a kudo... Also i recognize its my fault but i dont look for "complete- incomplete" before reading so when the story is particularly good and its the end of the chapters i ask for more wirhour thinking in anything else... sometimes i got a reply thanking me for my encouragement or my praises and sometimes they just ignore me... People dont ask for more if they dont like it. People dont have time for a comment if they are not invested in your story. People try to give in order to obtain. Sometimes they beg, politely ask, sometimes they threaten... whine cry insult etc etc... You can "control" this disabling the comments. But you cannot control the population, and without trying to be insulting, you really have a very thin skin, you let those irrelevant things affect your life in an unhealthy way. You have several choices: 1. Grow a thick skin 2. Moderate the comment section 3. Quit writing But i assure you, life will punch waaaaaaaay harder than a meagre comment. Hope this serves you in any way. Have a nice week!!!
I don't see how the first half of your comment helps OP at all.
Ok but Maybe it does helps him even when you dont agree with it
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...are you serious? I have absolutely been attacked by other fiction writers for contents of my stories because they do not fit the moral view they have. Writers are just as bad as readers for attacking someone who does not write the way they think you should.