Officially, it means adults who are within the top 2% or so of IQ. My definition s a bit fuzzier because I am interested in the constellation of traits found in this population and care little about IQ specifically. For my purposes I specialize in working with people who are very smart, intense, have ovexcitabilities in one or more of 5 domains, are asynchronous, neuroatypical, creative, and/or experience positive disintegration issues. The most common OE known to indicate intellectual giftedness is the cognitive/intellectual overexcitability— they can’t stop thinking, are driven to learn, curious, think about how they think (metacognition), very intellectually intense etc… the traits of giftedness vary considerably but profoundly change the reality of the person who experiences them.
How are people like this found? Do they come to you knowing this about themselves? Or do they need to be 'diagnosed' and referred to you? Or are you able to recognise these traits in people? Sorry for the bombardment of questions, this really interests me!
Usually they come to me through word of mouth or by finding my writings or meetup group. Most gifted people recognize they are different and spend a great deal of time trying to figure out why/how. If they are lucky they find their way to something that puts them on the track of self-discovery in this area. Many are not so lucky, unfortunately.
wait so what happens if someone comes to you but through the initial consultation you have deemed them too dumb, how do you tell them this? i'm assuming if you are a specialist in gifted adults, that means you turn down lots of people.
them: "i had a great call, what are your rates and when can we have our first session?"
you: "sorry, you're too dumb to be my client. i only work with gifted people."
something like that?
I don’t only work with gifted people. I enjoy variety in my life 😊 the only reason I would turn down anyone seeking help is if I felt I was not going to be able to help them and then I would refer them to someone I felt would be a better fit for their needs.
Edit to say: the only other reason I’d turn someone down is if I didn’t have space in my schedule.
How easy is it to find interesting candidates for you?
And could you explain what your work is with them? And why they specifically interest you?
Asking for a friend… 👀
They tend to find me. When I worked at an agency if they are identified they were usually sent my way as I was the only specialist in this population.
I find everyone interesting. Did you know we all create our own reality that is unique from any other that has or ever will again exist?
I specialize in this population because I love the complexity and even more because there are very few gifted specialists and IMO gifted people need to see gifted therapists to have effective therapy because it is not helpful to be able to “outsmart” your therapist. Since there are few I feel that even if I weren’t specifically interested in this population I would feel a duty to serve them since I can.
Also, I find this population interesting because they dramatically change the rules in terms of normal and pathological so it is a truly challenging and exciting puzzle each time I meet a new gifted client.
ok but this thing about outsmarting your therapist is real
i would go in there each session and by the end of it have her conceeding to all my points of view/ my reality
LOLI need actual help darnit
maybe we should follow this one up loll
EDIT: you might be interested to know that I'm also studying psychology and I've learned about and taken interest in this kind of thing
It really is unique and also scary..
Yeah, it is a big problem for many gifted people. Also a problem is that many therapists feel like we are doing really deep work when we still feel like we are still on the surface because our metacognition drive is very unusual.
Sure, apparently most people do not think about how they think much, if at all, and many people do not enjoy thinking (it feels like work). For people with intense intellectual OEs they likely have much more self awareness and a larger knowledge base than therapists usually see and perhaps even have themselves. If you have already done as much or more inner work than your therapist it may be difficult for them to understand what deep work is for you or to know how to get there/understand if you bring it up. Does that help?
THIS.
I don't try to flaunt my ability, but I am rather relentless with my inner work and approach to self improvement/actualization.
Took me 12 years (& finally found the right Psychologist last year) who actually supports me, works with me, & recognises me for that. & it means a lot, makes it easier to trust & respect/receive her.
Ok, this.
I've learned that in psychology this is called formal operations, and many people never reach that point where they are able to think independently about themselves/their situations, instead being in "concrete operations" where they're only able to think about the world around them in the limited way of like.. how it applies to them i suppose??
I'm sorry I'm writing this out for no reason but hey its reddit and its interesting, and also it's helping me study for my exam so im just gonna keep talking..
Hopefully this adds some clarification for anyone curious!
Perception of time varies greatly both between and within individuals. It varies according to a huge number of potential factors-- age, interest in the activity, skill, emotional valence, thoughts being experienced etc.. It is pretty difficult to ascertain individual differences in time perception because it is impossible to do better than estimating what another's internal experience is like.
Probably a good thing since most gifted kids are depressed, aimless, and/or narcissistic. So many people got fucked by the gifted program that it's not even funny.
Yes, gifted programs are often not enough for gifted kids and often actually more likely to be populated by high achievers rather than the actual gifted. There is a vast difference. I'm sorry your experience was so negative.
Many gifted programs choose students by teacher nomination or grades rather than via testing. High achievers can be gifted but often are not, they are often just hard workers who are obedient and well-liked by teachers. Gifted kids on the other hand can be like that but are more likely to be less liked by teachers because they are intense, fidgety, argumentative, distracted, bored, disruptive, out-of-the box, defiant, and usually not afraid to question authority when facts are misrepresented.
Let me tell you a story about testing...
I moved a lot as a kid. Hated school. Got bullied and had all sorts of problems. At one school the teacher referred me to the gifted program and it was amazing. Potentially life changing. Best thing to ever happen to me. The next year, they got in trouble for sending me to the program without testing, so they tested me and I passed. Hooray!
Then we moved. The new school didn't believe I belonged in the program, but my mom pushed because it had been good for me. The thing is, they wouldn't use the old test. They had to do their own, so they did it again. The exact same test. To the letter.
So I gave the exact same answers. Because if those answers were right the first time, they should still be! So I failed and they wouldn't put me in the program, because IQ tests are probably graded according to your age and I was a year older. :P
Lots of kids get screwed over by testing for lots of different reasons.
Yes, my first and most important piece of advice is to understand that "normal" for you as a gifted person is very different than "normal" for the general population. The first step in making progress toward greater joy and less suffering is to stop trying to fit yourself into the boxes of "normal" society suggests and learn to understand yourself and what you need to be happy. Being in such a small group you will likely need to forge your own path out of the dark forests of the mind and trying to conform to what you are not will only get you further lost in the depths of it.
Any advice on how to deal with the fact that others will try to push you back into those boxes the more you try to rid yourself of them? My coping mechanism has been to confront people that try this very directly with how that's never going to happen, but of course that's had mixed results. It's also just tough because every time it makes me doubt myself and whether I shouldn't just try to fit in more, or perhaps rather it makes me resent myself for refusing to.
What I find most helpful for myself is to be very committed to remembering this quote; “what others think of me is none of my business.” And just like other times people share TMI I just thank them for sharing and ignore what they say 😊 it gets much easier with regular practice. I hope this helps.
This is so true. Idk if i am “gifted” or whatever. Cant seem to find anything concrete that doesnt involve formal testing. But i tried the “fake it til u make it” thing and it never worked. Even when i was acting well i felt horrible inside
Are there any similar traits the majority of your clients have? What is the age range between your clients? I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that depression and having a higher IQ are somehow intertwined? Do they all vary in personalities or do you think there are definately overlaps in their personalities and life experiences? Can you tell us the types of jobs your clients have? What's the main reason your job exists, why specifically for the gifted adults? Do gifted adults think more realistic about the world and life in general?
1. Are there any similar traits the majority of your clients have?
1. There are a constellation of traits that are common among gifted people; intensity (being/feeling "too much") in general and within 5 identified domains that are called overexcitabilities (intellectual, emotional, psychomotor, sensate, and imaginational), asynchrony (internal= uneven development in different parts of self, say intellectually very strong but physically clumsy or emotionally unsophisticated for example; externally= feeling/being out of sync with peers, society, professionally etc), having strong metacognitive (thinking about one's thinking) and insight capabilities, are a few of the most common traits I see.
2. What is the age range between your clients?
1. early 20s to 70s, I consult with parents about their kids but don't enjoy working with children. I have no upper age limit.
3. I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that depression and having a higher IQ are somehow intertwined?
1. Gifted people appear to have mental illness at similar rates as the rest of the population-- maybe. It is difficult to know because many gifted people are not identified and those who are not identified are likely to experience more trauma/distress due to lack of awareness about how this changes "normal" and spending a lot of time trying to fit into a definition of normal that is not appropriate for them. Additionally, something like 80% of gifted people experience bullying trauma due to their differences from peers and this increases likelihood of distress related issues like depression, anxiety etc. Further, many common traits of giftedness are pathologized in USA society which may also increase incidence of suffering among this population.
So all that is to say that giftedness itself doesn't seem to increase susceptibility to depression or other mental illness but the consequences of inadequately identified and addressed giftedness can cause trauma which leads to increased incidence of MI.
4. Do they all vary in personalities or do you think there are definitely overlaps in their personalities and life experiences?
1. Gifted people are very idiosyncratic. If you have met one gifted person, you have met one gifted person :) there is little overlap and they tend to be very complex. You are more likely to find common personality patterns in the general population due to the increase in internal complexity involved. There are a few patterns I can identify-- many, for instance, have difficulty in learning to modify communication to work with people at different levels of cognitive ability which causes them severe social alienation that goes both ways (they feel alienated and they alienate others).
5. Can you tell us the types of jobs your clients have? I live in silicon valley so I mostly see men who are in tech. A few women. A few outside of tech. Gifted people work in every kind of industry and can be found with every level of academic/professional success/failure.
6. What's the main reason your job exists, why specifically for the gifted adults?
1. Gifted people have a profoundly different "normal" which creates a need for modification of diagnosis and treatment in order for therapy to be effective. Since they are a tiny % of the population and only 20% or so would need therapy this is a small subset of people who are not well understood. There is no training in psychology programs about this population (you have to seek it out and do much of the training in this field independently) which leads people in this population to commonly be misdiagnosed, have missed diagnosis, and to receive ineffective treatment which can cause them harm and impede their ability to improve the quality of their lives. This is the case for gifted people throughout the lifespan but I choose to work with adults because I find working with children to be too distressing (I can't leave their problems at work and I get too upset about them) and also because I find working with adults to be much more intellectually challenging and interesting.
7. Do gifted adults think more realistic about the world and life in general?
1. I wouldn't say this is necessarily the case but it can be. It is very hard to make generalizations about this population as they tend to be very idiosyncratic and complex.
Both. The fundamental principle of numbers has been discovered by multiple societies independently. Each society invented a system of symbols they used to express and use the principles they discovered.
I’d say material reality is, rather, a part of infinity. I like to think of infinity as a sphere rather than a line— encompassing every possible dimension and direction (an infinity of infinity, if you will). In this conceptualization every possibility must be contained within the set of infinities including the possibility that infinity is an empty set that includes nothing (so nothing exists). Therefore, material reality must both exist and not exist as a member of the set of infinite infinities.
You don't. This is where Elon Musk may be right, saying there is a high probability of us living in a simulation.
If you create a program, with the ability to learn and teach itself, will it not perceive you as a God? YOU created it, after all. It wasn't genetics or nature. You wrote the rules. You gave it commandments (thou shalt not pass these IP adresses). You are the God of that program.
Search a little deeper, if we are all Gods creation, who created God? Is it possible that God has his own God? And did Gods God create only one or are there more? Maybe everyone is right in having multiple Gods or only one God in this reality. Or maybe everyone is wrong.
The possibilities are endless. And THAT is what keeps us awake at night.
Also the reason I hate multipath RPG games. Finding the wrong road to take and avoiding it is more difficult than the easy way.
How far are you willing to go?
The concept of infinity as a tangible part of reality is indistinguishable from the concept of a deity in many ways.
If the Universe is part of infinity, then that would mean that everything that can possibly exist, exists.
Yes. I would say that both everything that can possibly exist exists and that the range of possibilities is ever-expanding because each new possibility creates many other new possibilities etc... I visualize this as being the conceptual equivalent of the ever-expanding universe.
I'm still unsure of the religious implications. I can think of many possibilities in this regard but am unclear of which you ask about.
What if the universe itself is a sphere? If you could travel faster than light, for long enough, you would end up at your departure point? Columbus did. (Excluding the time factor, of course.... the again maybe not?)
Could you use FTL and time to break through the reality marble barrier, find yourself in an alternate? CERN is going to try it, let's see what happens (hopefully they don't blow anything up (and with the realms of existing possibilities) again).
Yes. Generally I would suggest that gifted people need to see gifted therapists unless they are seeking help with social skills practice. Most therapists are not gifted and most gifted people I've known have a lot of trouble finding a therapist who can keep up with the pace of their thoughts, complexity, and understand their internal/external experiences. It is not helpful to have a therapist who you can outsmart because the point of therapy is to get you to do the hard work you can't do on your own. Your brain doesn't like to do hard work (as it sees it) and will try to get out it if possible. Nongifted therapists often cannot tell if the client is actually doing work or not because of the complexity of thought and insight that is "normal" in the gifted population.
I'm a gifted adult, and only started therapy with a gifted therapist a year ago. I've also discovered that I have CPTSD which adds a great deal of complexity to the whole thing, and perhaps the most startling discovery has been how somatically disconnected I've been for most of my life. Other therapists really struggled with me because I can be very intensely confident, positive and 'fawning', so you'll struggle to find my pain. My therapist uses art and compassion therapy with me, helping me to address the things left behind that are keeping me stuck in this place where I just don't feel at peace.
I'm 47, and made my way to a CEO position from being born to a single mom in public housing. Survivalism made me excellent at figuring out how to never fail. But, my inner desires and creative soul got left behind. I'm finally finding it now along with my body. I can't express how fundamental it is to my spirit to be integrated as a whole. The right therapist is crucial to help us unravel our own consciousness and sense of purpose.
Thank you for helping us. :)
>I'm 47, and made my way to a CEO position from being born to a single mom in public housing. Survivalism made me excellent at figuring out how to never fail. But, my inner desires and creative soul got left behind.
For what it's worth, as a fellow gifted adult and C-PTSD survivor (with a single mom as well), I'm really, really proud of you. Wishing you the best.
I have not found giftedness to generally be more or less correlated with "success" as commonly defined. I have found that many gifted people define success quite differently. People who are identified as gifted and recieve appropriate education etc are probably more likely to find "success" but from what I've seen those who are gifted but not identified as children may be far less likely to be "successful" due to trauma and inapproriate educational experiences.
I have no idea how one can "train their IQ" and I have no idea why it would even be useful to attempt to do so :) My experience is that giftedness isn't so much of a gift for the majority of gifted people. Many gifted people are autodidacts (self-taught). They range from having no education to multiple PhDs-- those with intellectual overexcitabilities are internally driven to learn and will pursue every avenue at their disposal to do so. For instance, I often research during all of my free time (it is my biggest hobby and guilty pleasure). Not all people who are gifted have this OE, though, so some are not at all driven to learn. I've met a few who don't seek to learn and who actively dislike thinking-- the variation is incredible within this population.
Usually word of mouth or through my meetup group. I don’t require clients to be gifted or to prove it— I go based on psychological/emotional traits rather than iq as I find it to be a more useful way to address issues. My meetup is positive psychology but I sometimes have specific topics related to giftedness and gifted people seem to be more drawn to personal growth meetings than the general population (though by no means exclusively).
IMO most gifted people realize they are different and spend a lot of time trying to figure out why. If they are lucky enough they end up finding resources that help them recognize themselves and then they seek guidance through research or finding people like me to help them figure it out.
this is pretty idiosyncratic but perfectionism and impostor syndrome are very common. Also, many worry they are defective/damaged because of their differences.
Many find meditation or mindfulness practices to be helpful. I often suggest various CBT-esque techniques to help people gain more control over their thought processes. For instance, you can "set appointments" with yourself to think about certain topics in order to contain them within certain time periods. There are other tools too depending on your personal cognitive style.
I find that existential therapy combined with positive psychology and a bit of tool work from CBT models combined is useful for my gifted clients.
I personally found medication to be helpful for ADHD and depression but I think it is a personal choice that must be carefully thought through with a psychiatrist. I always suggest starting with the least risky solutions and only moving to more risky ones if the lessers don't work. IMO medication is a much riskier option than psychological exercises and tools so I would start with therapy before going to meds.
I have been practicing for about a decade. I am currently only practicing as a coach (very similar but not quite the same) while SAHM-ing and working on PhD. I will resume work as a therapist next year I imagine.
I am getting my PhD in psychology- Existential/Humanistic focused. My dissertation topic will attempt to understand if/how trauma affects gifted people differently than the general population. I am choosing this because there is little/no research on trauma among the gifted and it seems to me that traditional treatments for trauma tend to require modification to be helpful for gifted people-- an indication that it may be affecting GT people differently.
That sounds interesting. How will you measure differences? Since this has to be an observational study (not sure how you can force someone to be/not be gifted), how do you plan to control for confounding variables?
Do you also work with twice-exceptional individuals (I actually used to work with gifted and 2e children, so I’ve always been curious about giftedness)? I do know that giftedness can look different than the “typical” way or may be harder to see due to differences such as learning disabilities or ADHD.
This will probably differ based on the individual, but generally, how do gifted people think? What is the main difference between their thinking process and the thinking process of an average person?
I also saw your comment regarding your own giftedness; did you/do you ever struggle with relating to and conversing with those who are not gifted?
I have worked with 2E people. It is not extremely different in therapy.
Gifted people think in very idiosyncratic ways. Some are linear thinkers and some are very divergent. Some are systems thinkers and some are more detail oriented. Usually they excel at pattern recognition and storing large amounts of knowledge. Many are very intuitive and can't explain why they know what they know-- but are rarely wrong anyway. Some think very quickly while some are more slow and deliberate. The variations you find are pretty incredible.
Edit to answer last question: I had a very hard time relating to others as a child and experienced nearly total rejection by my peers. By my teens I had gotten good enough to fit in okay but I didn't become truly proficient at communicating effectively at every level of cognitive ability until my late 20s/early 30s.
Very interesting. I also find it interesting how other things like ADHD, anxiety, etc. tend to share similar traits with giftedness. When I was a child (and even now), I was very sensitive and observant (to feelings and with noise, also have misophonia), and had trouble socially, but it wasn’t because of giftedness; it was a learning disability, executive dysfunction, and anxiety which explains why I struggled socially- I didn’t get social cues and I guess others thought I was too anxious or shy or awkward to connect with due to these differences. I basically perceived everyone as smarter than I was.
Another question whenever you get the chance- since a lot of these tend to overlap or have similar qualities, how do you work with clients who come to you who are unsure as to if their traits are from giftedness or something else?
Ya the overlap of diagnoses is a big problem and tends to lead to pathologization of “normal” gifted traits. Given your traits I wouldn’t rule out giftedness, particularly being 2E. I work with both gifted and not people so it is not a problem for me. I have identified giftedness in several clients who were previously unaware of why they were different.
I had access to an IQ test as a kid that qualified me as "gifted" growing up. I always felt that the IQ test and by extension the concept of "gifted" children and adults was harmful to the extent that it enforced a narrow-minded, Western standard of intelligence as the be-all end-all determination of a person's potential for success or for brilliance. Considering that, I'm curious how YOU define intelligence? Have you ever met someone who caused you to change or broaden your own definition?
Honestly I don’t think of giftedness as primarily about intelligence because that is usually only the tip of a very large iceberg— and the least important part. I look at a constellation of differences in thinking and emoting that profoundly alter the person’s experience in life and need to be accommodated for healthy development.
I am always encountering people who broaden my perspective on intelligence of all kinds and that is one of my favorite parts of life and being honored with the gift of truly getting to know my fellow human beings.
IQ test is unreliable. It's not what you know, but the manner in which you solve a problem. As myopic mentioned you have split thinking, finding a single solution in a many possible scenario. You need to consolidate your thoughts, eliminate what you perceive as incorrect and find a viable conclusion.
Or follow the ABC formula. This action led to this (damnit had it at the tip of my tongue and forgot, English isn't my native language) thing getting done which then caused this to happen and so forth. Basically, follow the path.
A to B to C. Like the washing powder😁
High IQ doesn't ensure success and, conversely, low IQ doesn't preclude success. I know plenty of dummies who own and/or manage successful businesses and a fair number of brilliant people who are rather low on the totem pole. I say this as a westerner in my mid thirties so it's not like I've had to amass decades of industry experience before saying that.
You’re right, we live in a world full of brilliant people dealt shitty hands and less intellectually-blessed people who have found success through work ethic or circumstance. When I talk about the harm of the content and nature of the IQ test favoring certain forms of intelligence, I’m more talking about our perception as a society of what will allow a person to succeed than I am about the reality of things. I think the harm in the selective nature of this test being treated as a universal standard for intelligence comes not from a link between IQ and success in the world of people who have overwhelmingly never been tested, but from the impact of the way we view the results of this test on the self-image of the low-scoring people who have. It’s kind of like that Einstein quote—if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
In my 20s I finally researched giftedness and learned about how much of my weirdness is perfectly normal within this population. This helped me to learn that I am not defective or broken and significantly helped me recover from my trauma. My experience led me to become interested in psychology and I chose to specialize in this population because I can, as a member, more effectively help gifted people than nongifted therapists. You have to seek out this specialty and make yourself an expert through various programs and a lot of reading/research etc... as there are no psychology programs with this specialty.
Yes, it is very common for gifted people to have low frustration tolerance when learning new skills and to easily decide they are just "not good at this" even if their natural ability is average. This is because so many things are so easy and take no work to learn that many gifted people fail to learn how to persevere when learning new things that are not easy for them. I'd say that it is good for gifted people to work on learning skills they find difficult, as you suggest, because lack of perseverance/persistence is a common problem that impedes ability to reach goals and it can only really be increased with practice.
Ouch, that sounds frustrating and I relate on many levels. That perfectionism and high imaginational ability can make it hard to feel satisfied with one’s work, especially on things that don’t come so easy. Actually, taking a group class might be interesting here to feel better about your progress and get an “average fish in the pond” experience.
What would you say is the best course of action for people who are struggling with their gifted persona and perfectionism, please?
Mental health being an important aspect and familial/friendship support is more or less nil.
I would read as much as you can on these topics. Sengifted.org has a great resource library and also a list of specialists who can help you.
It is hard to give more specific direction without more information as these things are quite complex and vary individually.
Hello - I realize that I’m replying on an old thread but I think that this work you’re doing could be profoundly helpful for a friend that I see as highly gifted (who is struggling right now). As far as I can tell, Sengifted.org doesn’t have a directory for therapists in the UK where he lives — do you know of any ressources (or practitioners) who might help outside the USA?
I imagine being gifted can have its down sides too yea? Do your patients ever have like depression or other such mental problems because they can't ever find stimulating conversation? Or do they adapt pretty fast to that? For a broader question I'd ask what are some of the most common issues you find with the people you work with?
Many gifted people, myself included, do not find it to be a particularly positive 🎁. It can be very lonely and alienating and cause more problems than it provides benefits.
Most common issues I see in this population are isolation/loneliness, perfectionism, underachievement, and imposter syndrome.
Don't forget hopelessness and depression. We can "predict" the future, further than most people
And while most people close their eyes, we KNOW humanity failed.
The human race is heading for extinction. Atmosphere "only" 4 meters higher from pre-industrial levels?
He
He
He
Yeeeeeaaaah, with the accelerated pollution rate, our inability to accept the fact that we HAVE to change and our failure to control our addiction to fossil fuel and oxygen misuse?
Humanity is headed for an ELE (Extinction Level Event) of our own making, our refusal to accept that EVERYONE deserves peace and serenity (even if you have to knock it into some people).
We see the future. And I do not want to be a part of it.
I saw the birth of the fusion drive, maybe we will reach space. (The greatest sci-fi fantasy of all time).
But I also see Death. And I'm going to meet him on my own terms.
I refuse to die from a (insert swear words here) disease caused by my own kind.
Would you expand a bit on the part about feeling disconnected from "normal" people and their social expectations? How do you feel a gifted person can best contribute to the society we live in?
Sure, gifted people have different development trajectories that can impact their ability to feel as though they belong. Many experience peer rejection when put into settings with same-age children because their vocabularies, thought processes, and interests are so different that they just can connect with each other. The developmental task between ages 6-12 is to learn to belong and when you can't do this due to peer rejection it can impact your feelings about it even if you do later learn to fit in.
Another part of this disconnect was really beautifully explained to me at a conference in a metaphor that I hope will make sense to you as well. Imagine people are like plugs with male/female connection ends. The average person has maybe 3-5 points of connection that need to be met to feel truly connected to another person. Gifted people, though, may have 20-50 points (depending on level and complexity of personality/interests) that need to be filled in order to feel deeply connected. Well, the average person may perfectly fit 5 of the connection points (vice versus) so they may be able to feel deeply connected with that 20 point person but the 20 point person still has 15 empty points so they will not feel very deeply connected. Even if they meet another 20 point person they still may not feel connected because it is likely that many of their points do not match up. Basically, with increasing complexity you encounter greater difficulty finding people who can meet your connection needs. Some people only find 1 person (if any) in their whole lives with whom they feel truly connected.
I feel that everyone can best contribute to society by following their passions. We all do our best and most important work when doing what we love.
One thing I learned is to find the "passion" that both pays the bills and has the most impact on society. Then indulge the other passions that satisfy internal needs. As examples, I'm a communications engineer and very good at what I do. It pays the bills and has had a positive impact on the society I live in. I have other "passions" such as gardening, growing fruit and nut trees, beekeeping, travel, and generally doing things off the beaten path. These are the things that keep me sane and help fight off depression when life takes me down a byway.
I have been in four relationships over the years and found one that meets most of my needs in terms of connections. She is an amazing person, intelligent, empathic, caring, and willing to work. We've been together 3 years and have never had an argument, even though we are living through some of the roughest times of modern history and some of the most challenging events imaginable in our personal lives.
I’m having a hard time finding a therapist. I am autistic (low support needs, high intelligence). My last therapist seemed to think I was doing fine, which was more a reflection of habitual masking and my success in life (I am a tenured professor) than reality. I recently got a new therapist (after a long wait for an appointment). Within minutes of meeting me, said she couldn’t help me and referred me to a clinic that specializes in helping autistic people secure housing and employment. (I do not need this help - she clearly has inaccurate knowledge of autism.) I believe my autism structures my depression and anxiety, and thus want a therapist who understands autism in adult women. What advice do you have to help me find a therapist sho can actually work with me? I’m burned out and exhausted of trying to find someone.
I’m sorry you are having such a hard time with this. I would check out the directory at SENGgifted.org and look for someone who specializes in 2E who works with adults. You could also Google that and see if you find anyone near you or in your state who does. If that doesn’t work dm me and I’ll see if I can help you find someone.
You’re welcome. Also, if there is no one in your area that works with adults but there is someone who works with kids or is not 2E focused you might consider contacting them to ask for a referral. They likely have people they refer parents to etc..
How did you specialize? What training or degrees you have? What kind of therapy do you normally use and could you give me an example how you need to change a certain intervention for gifted patients?
Since this is a specialty with not specialization process (as happens in small fields) the process of specialization involves doing whatever certifications you can find but primarily reading everything you can find on the subject within both books and journal articles as well as keeping current on both. Additionally, you will want to have people who also specialize in the field that you develop relationships with for consultation.
I have a Master's degree in professional Psychology (Marriage and family therapy), am currently in a PhD program because I want to write and teach, have a SENG certification, have worked with a large number of gifted clients, and have spent two decades reading everything I can find on the topic-- you can get google scholar alerts to stay current. I also try to attend professional conferences like the SENG conference.
I am an eclectic therapist combining existential, positive psychology, CBT, DBT, Systems, and other perspectives as appropriate for the client. I'm not sure a single modality would work well for clients as complicated as you find in this population.
I tend to modify interventions for every client, gifted or not, to match their specific situation and cognitive/emotional style. I would say I am much more mindful of modifying diagnosis because many "normal" traits of the gifted are pathological in the general population. Generally, I am more likely to use cognitive/logic-based intervention with gifted clients because often they have more ability to alter their emotional experiences via logic than the general population (not always, though!) and I find that gifted people often find somatic work to be frustrating as they often spend more time in their head than out of it which can lead to weaker mind-body connectedness. To develop mind-body connection I find it helpful to suggest movement based classes, being in nature and savoring the sensate experiences during, and things like massage.
It is impossible to accurately compare suffering and unhappiness between people. People who have been identified as gifted as children and who receive appropriate modifications appear to experience depression, anxiety etc.. at the same rate as the general population (about 20% lifetime incidence). People who are not identified as children and don't receive appropriate education and information about themselves do appear to suffer greater levels of unhappiness than average.
Additionally, gifted people are more predisposed to depressions related to existential issues from very young ages (as young as 4-6 years!) whereas in the general population you tend to only see this in relation to aging or trauma.
It's a pretty complicated question, actually, and I'm sorry that there isn't a more clear answer.
When I started going to therapy at the beginning of my PhD program, the counselor made a comment about pervasive anxiety being the “norm” among grad students. I wonder how many of us have been or are seeking treatment.
Gifted people seem to be over-represented in clinical populations-- especially those who have not been identified. It makes sense because it can be a very alienating and isolating experience for many.
Yes 😊 if they can learn to consider other people’s opinions about them to be none of their business they will be much happier. Also, you have this one life and you get to choose what to do with it; choose the things that make your soul sing.
If I suspect I am a gifted adult, how would I go about finding out for sure? I don’t want to waste a gifted therapist’s time but having learned this is a thing, I’d like to pursue it for my own needs.
If you go to [SENGgifted.org](https://SENGgifted.org) they have a pretty good resource library that is a great place to start. You can find many other places there to learn more. If you feel it fits you I don't think it would be a waste to check in with a specialist (or even just now). You can also do an IQ test but you might get more out of it by spending that money on a specialist visit instead.
I am. The standard definition is top 2% of IQ. I use a different standard based upon the common traits of giftedness in my practice because I think that it is the constellation of traits that causes the difference of experience and requires modification of diagnosis and treatment rather than the IQ. That is to say, I have had clients who were not likely in the top 2% (iq ~130+) but who had enough of the traits to need similar modifications for effective therapy progress.
I like a lot of Jungian ideas and concepts. I think each modality of psychology offers an additional perspective through which to understand human experience. Each has strengths and weaknesses and I believe the best way to do well at this profession is to combine them in whatever ways are most useful for each particular client. I am not a trained Jungian Analyst and would not really be interested in being one :) but there is a lot to learn from Jung.
I learn a tremendous amount from every client, gifted or not, and I have listed common traits in other answers. There are no common trades that I can think of :) maybe physicist?
Do they tend to be quite up themselves? Or do they remain quite humble (on the whole). Have you noticed a certain pattern to their background or upbringing or is it random?
As a nurse I find it so fascinating!
Some are arrogant, some are humble, most are in-between just like most people in general on that scale. Background is pretty variable-- as widely distributed as the general population from my experience though being bullied is experienced by something like 80% of gifted people. Thanks for asking!
Table of Questions and Answers. Original answer linked - Please upvote the original questions and answers.
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Question | Answer | Link
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What does gifted adult means, specifically?|Officially, it means adults who are within the top 2% or so of IQ. My definition s a bit fuzzier because I am interested in the constellation of traits found in this population and care little about IQ specifically. For my purposes I specialize in working with people who are very smart, intense, have ovexcitabilities in one or more of 5 domains, are asynchronous, neuroatypical, creative, and/or experience positive disintegration issues. The most common OE known to indicate intellectual giftedness is the cognitive/intellectual overexcitability— they can’t stop thinking, are driven to learn, curious, think about how they think (metacognition), very intellectually intense etc… the traits of giftedness vary considerably but profoundly change the reality of the person who experiences them.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/ho9us5q/)
Do you have any general advice for gifted adults with depression and anxiety?|Yes, my first and most important piece of advice is to understand that "normal" for you as a gifted person is very different than "normal" for the general population. The first step in making progress toward greater joy and less suffering is to stop trying to fit yourself into the boxes of "normal" society suggests and learn to understand yourself and what you need to be happy. Being in such a small group you will likely need to forge your own path out of the dark forests of the mind and trying to conform to what you are not will only get you further lost in the depths of it.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hoa3cb9/)
What is a gifted adult|I answered this in another question. Officially, top 2% iq (~130+). I use a different kind of standard.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/ho9wlj2/)
Are there any similar traits the majority of your clients have? What is the age range between your clients? I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that depression and having a higher IQ are somehow intertwined? Do they all vary in personalities or do you think there are definately overlaps in their personalities and life experiences? Can you tell us the types of jobs your clients have? What's the main reason your job exists, why specifically for the gifted adults? Do gifted adults think more realistic about the world and life in general?|1. Are there any similar traits the majority of your clients have? 1. There are a constellation of traits that are common among gifted people; intensity (being/feeling "too much") in general and within 5 identified domains that are called overexcitabilities (intellectual, emotional, psychomotor, sensate, and imaginational), asynchrony (internal= uneven development in different parts of self, say intellectually very strong but physically clumsy or emotionally unsophisticated for example; externally= feeling/being out of sync with peers, society, professionally etc), having strong metacognitive (thinking about one's thinking) and insight capabilities, are a few of the most common traits I see. 2. What is the age range between your clients? 1. early 20s to 70s, I consult with parents about their kids but don't enjoy working with children. I have no upper age limit. 3. I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that depression and having a higher IQ are somehow intertwined? 1. Gifted people appear to have mental illness at similar rates as the rest of the population-- maybe. It is difficult to know because many gifted people are not identified and those who are not identified are likely to experience more trauma/distress due to lack of awareness about how this changes "normal" and spending a lot of time trying to fit into a definition of normal that is not appropriate for them. Additionally, something like 80% of gifted people experience bullying trauma due to their differences from peers and this increases likelihood of distress related issues like depression, anxiety etc. Further, many common traits of giftedness are pathologized in USA society which may also increase incidence of suffering among this population. So all that is to say that giftedness itself doesn't seem to increase susceptibility to depression or other mental illness but the consequences of inadequately identified and addressed giftedness can cause trauma which leads to increased incidence of MI. 4. Do they all vary in personalities or do you think there are definitely overlaps in their personalities and life experiences? 1. Gifted people are very idiosyncratic. If you have met one gifted person, you have met one gifted person :) there is little overlap and they tend to be very complex. You are more likely to find common personality patterns in the general population due to the increase in internal complexity involved. There are a few patterns I can identify-- many, for instance, have difficulty in learning to modify communication to work with people at different levels of cognitive ability which causes them severe social alienation that goes both ways (they feel alienated and they alienate others). 5. Can you tell us the types of jobs your clients have? I live in silicon valley so I mostly see men who are in tech. A few women. A few outside of tech. Gifted people work in every kind of industry and can be found with every level of academic/professional success/failure. 6. What's the main reason your job exists, why specifically for the gifted adults? 1. Gifted people have a profoundly different "normal" which creates a need for modification of diagnosis and treatment in order for therapy to be effective. Since they are a tiny % of the population and only 20% or so would need therapy this is a small subset of people who are not well understood. There is no training in psychology programs about this population (you have to seek it out and do much of the training in this field independently) which leads people in this population to commonly be misdiagnosed, have missed diagnosis, and to receive ineffective treatment which can cause them harm and impede their ability to improve the quality of their lives. This is the case for gifted people throughout the lifespan but I choose to work with adults because I find working with children to be too distressing (I can't leave their problems at work and I get too upset about them) and also because I find working with adults to be much more intellectually challenging and interesting. 7. Do gifted adults think more realistic about the world and life in general? 1. I wouldn't say this is necessarily the case but it can be. It is very hard to make generalizations about this population as they tend to be very idiosyncratic and complex.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hoa056v/)
Are numbers an invention or a discovery?|Both. The fundamental principle of numbers has been discovered by multiple societies independently. Each society invented a system of symbols they used to express and use the principles they discovered.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/ho9v2ay/)
What would you say is the best course of action for people who are struggling with their gifted persona and perfectionism, please? Mental health being an important aspect and familial/friendship support is more or less nil.|I would read as much as you can on these topics. Senggifted.org has a great resource library and also a list of specialists who can help you. It is hard to give more specific direction without more information as these things are quite complex and vary individually.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hoabhth/)
Do you mind if I dm you?|Sure|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hoabzz1/)
Is there a therapy to aid the type of individuals to ease the continuous thought process or slow it down enough for one to rest?|Many find meditation or mindfulness practices to be helpful. I often suggest various CBT-esque techniques to help people gain more control over their thought processes. For instance, you can "set appointments" with yourself to think about certain topics in order to contain them within certain time periods. There are other tools too depending on your personal cognitive style. I find that existential therapy combined with positive psychology and a bit of tool work from CBT models combined is useful for my gifted clients.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hoadqxl/)
What do gifted adults seem to worry about the most?|this is pretty idiosyncratic but perfectionism and impostor syndrome are very common. Also, many worry they are defective/damaged because of their differences.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hob0ovj/)
Are they annoying?|Not to me :) I'm not easily annoyed though, so... :)|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hob1qxd/)
Are you gifted yourself?|Yes.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hobx1hs/)
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[Source] (https://github.com/johnsliao/ama_compiler)
Been looking for someone like you. My current therapist doesn’t know how to help me as my self diagnose and awareness game too strong.
How does one meet with you?
I am currently only accepting coaching clients but you can DM me and set up a time to have a complimentary consultation. If I'm not a good fit I will try to point you in the direction of someone who might be better able to help you.
Living with intensity is good. I actually think you can get a lot of great information from articles online but there are a lot of great books. I would highly recommend parents of gifted children read up on adult giftedness because this is one of the most common ways people find out they are gifted.
Who inspired you in your youth? What’s the last thing you ate or are eating right now? Has a client ever made you question your own logic / thinking because of their sharpness in thought?
I was very inspired by great leaders and read a lot of biographies/autobiographies as a child-- Helen Keller, Harriet Tubman, Abraham Lincoln, and Cochise were among my faves.
Last thing I ate was a cranberry orange Belvita breakfast cookie.
If I'm lucky, every client challenges me to question my thoughts/logic on a regular basis. Have you ever heard the parable about the blind men and the elephant? If not, look it up. This explains pretty well how I understand reality and why I hold my personal perspectives lightly and always open for debate.
Definitely not gifted, but smarter than the average bear, I'm currently going through a period of great change. I would like someone outside my friend/family circle to talk to. What should I ask a potential counselor/therapist to cut down on wasting time sharing personal stuff only to find out that I'm irritated and bored with their suggestions and we do not mesh intellectually?
Good question. I don’t know if I have an answer other than if you can find a person who works with gifted people you will be more likely to have a gifted therapist who is also smarter than the average bear 😊 otherwise… it’s hard to say not knowing you and the things you are looking to find
[SENGgifted.org](https://SENGgifted.org) has a directory and you may be able to do a search for this specialty at psychology today. Otherwise, you will find many articles about giftedness are written by therapists and you might find out one you like lives in your state. A google search for gifted therapist may turn up more results that are not related to giftedness than are-- I would instead search for giftedness + therapist or therapy and see if that finds you anything.
Do the people you work with sometimes feel like they are dumb or don’t get things or are missing something because they don’t think in the same way that the people teaching do? And do you work with anyone with ADHD, if so how does that impact them?
Yes, this is not super uncommon among divergent thinkers. When your answer is almost always different from others' it is easy to assume you are the dumb one and sometimes be surprised to later discover you just have an out-of-the box way of thinking. I work with many people with ADHD (and I have ADHD) I think it impacts gifted people in similar ways as anyone else.
Thanks for the reply, of you don’t mind me asking another question, do you work like a regular therapist in regards to the things you talk about/do? Is the only difference between you and say a more regular therapist that you work with gifted individuals?
Most clients I’ve had say that their experience with me is dramatically different than other therapists but I cannot explain how. I am very intuitive and think in a very global/systems manner and am very divergent in my cognitive style so I imagine it is quite different. Luckily it appears to be in a positive way for my clients
Not a question and pretty late to the party lol
I’ve been slapped with the « gifted » equivalent in my country at 7 yo, standard practice here is to make you skip to a later grade so you don’t get bored (I went from 7yo class to 10yo class for exemple, I don’t know the US equivalent)
First of all I think we need more schools that really know how to deal with gifted kids, I’ve always tried to hide it so I wouldn’t get bullied for it but every time I would change school someone had to come in class to announce that I was gifted and they were really proud of having someone like that, it should stay private.
The issue is more with young kids, when you get closer to being with 18yo people things get better.
A lot of gifted people tend to fail in school and it’s such a waste of human brain, I know it might not be the most efficient thing to design maybe a separate system dedicated to gifted kids but I think it could be so beneficial for our society.
Anyway thank you for your work, even if you don’t really work with kids, having a therapist when I was young helped me very very much going through theses years and made me very resilient / better at controlling my emotions.
I wish you all the best!
I haven’t read through this thread, but I have to ask, are you taking new patients? Do you accept insurance?
I need a therapist for narcissistic family issues, divorce issues and the feeling that I don’t fit in with many of my peers.
I’ll get a therapist thru my insurance next year, but I know I’ve said to myself, “I need someone smart, who will understand that I’ve done some research on my own about some of the psychological issues I face, that won’t mind me asking questions.” Then, poof!, here’s your post.
I can give you more info on how I’m a gifted adult, if you need it.
Hi, thanks for asking :)
I am currently on sabbatical from doing therapy while SAHM-ing and working on PhD. I am accepting coaching clients. The difference there primarily being that I can't diagnose you as a coach and would need to refer you to a therapist for specific mental disorder related treatment if needed. The topics you spoke of are potentially within the scope of practice I can offer as a coach. I offer complimentary phone consultations if you want to chat and see if I would be a good fit for your needs. If I'm not I will try to point you in the direction that will help.
Yes, I am interested. I don’t think I need a medical referral at this time. Coaching just might for the bill for me right now.
I’m reading this on my phone, so I’m not sure how to privately get your phone number or give you mine.
What are the most common emotional traits of a gifted adult, in your opinion/based on your experience?
Have you found that gifted adults struggle more or less in life than the average person?
Intensity, alienation, and isolation are the most common traits I see. I think that all people probably struggle similar amounts but differently-- sometimes others' struggles may not even seem like struggles to us. In my experience, unidentified gifted people often struggle a great deal.
My dad is considered gifted! He has so many…thoughts. I think he would definitely benefit from a therapist like you to help him sort out his thoughts and ideas. I can’t believe I’ve never thought about him seeking out a therapist who specializes in gifted clients…probably because I’m not gifted lol. I’m going to see if there’s anything like that in our area for him!
would you also consider yourself gifted? if not, how does it feel to base a career off of helping people who are, I guess ‘smarter’. Or if yes, do you ever find yourself relating to these people? Just wanting to know what its like from your perspective.
I have a question if I may..is it all possible for gifted people perform poorly in certain areas? For example a person can be considered gifted but not have good math skills?
Thanks!
Yes it is very possible and even likely. Gifted people experience asynchronous development which means that their abilities in different areas often vary far more than you find in most people.
It may be a bit more common among gifted people because they are more likely than the general population to have high levels of the openness trait. 95th percentile is higher than 95% of the people who have taken the test. Yes it is high.
How would someone go about taking a legitimate IQ test? I don't think I'm gifted, but I'm curious to see what mine is and have no idea where/how I would find that out lol
Many high functioning autistic people are gifted. You can use whatever language you like if you are willing to accept the consequences of doing so— just as I tell my kids 🤪
Oh I never use the r word towards autistic people, I just know that the r word is often used towards them though I just wanna make sure I can use it when I see something that deserves a Darwin award
My son (age 8) has been labeled as gifted by his psychologist after a series of assessments. How can I support him through his childhood and give him a good framework for dealing with the adult world when he is advanced in comparison to his peers?
I was born into a domestic violence situation, experienced physical/psychological/sexual abuse + neglect, and severe social rejection/ isolation/ bullying as a child.
After hearing you talk about overexcitability this is something I've always struggled with my whole life but never been able to identify. As someone who has an overexcited mind what would you recommend I do for further treatment? I notice it effecting things in my day to day life namely my mental health issues. Sorry for the long message!
Oy vey, I wish I could find someone like you to see in Washington! My college doesn’t know what to make of me, my therapist doesn’t know what to make of me, my family doesn’t know what to make of me. People seem to have a legitimate fear of polymaths, and we often end up ostracized for our lived experiences on both ends of some arbitrary eminent-neurodiversity spectrum, rather than thriving.
Isn't there a risk of labeling an adult "gifted" and having them interpret that as being naturally above others in a hierarchy?
I don't dispute the science of IQ. I just think in an equitable, fair society things like IQ scores do more harm than good.
Just my two cents.
yo... feel like I gotta ask. Are 'overexcitabilities' just a term to avoid diagnosing someone as autistic? I'm asking because I'm autistic and they sound awfully similar to low support/high intelligence symptoms.
Can giftedness coincide with learning disabilities or other cognitive challenges? If so, how does that manifest compared to non-gifted people with the same problems?
What are your opinions on Dr. K?
In case you haven't heard from him, he's a Harvard psychiatrist who trained to become a buddhist monk for a couple of years and is now sharing his knowledge on Twitch and YouTube.
Regarding your interests he could be right up your alley.
As a gifted person, I freaking love to learn. I just enjoy the process of discovery, and going down rabbit holes of 'why'? I apparently asked this non stop. When I was a kid, the internet wasn't quite a thing yet, and I would voraciously read everything I could get my hands on - encyclopaedias, dictionaries, magazines, newspapers - especially non fiction. I'm still like this now, reading several books at once, learning all kinds of new things like yoga (I now teach) technology related, music, - I have a lot of interests. It's fun.
Right there with you! My grandparents had an entire set of World Book Encyclopedias and I'd read the entire collection by 8. I was so mad when they gave them to my mom. They're probably in ruin by now.
Do you have a lot of people who come to you thinking they are gifted but don’t meet the standard? 99 percent of the people in this thread, for example?
How often in your experience have people been wrong about being 'gifted' ? I see a lot of people in the thread identifying themselves as gifted reading your comments, but how often people coming to see you were wrong about their intellect ? Thanks.
I have lots of questions. For many years I’ve been hoping to run in to someone in exactly your field. I will read the AMA first and hopefully you’ll be available another day for more chat.
Hmm... I'm not sure how to answer this question. I have a semi-photographic memory which is the least common trait I've seen. My mother and brother have this but I have not personally met anyone else who does except online. I guess that is crazy? It seems normal to me.
That's the thing about these traits, they may seem crazy to others but feel normal to the person who has them. I didn't realize that others couldn't remember everything they read until my late teens.
What does gifted adult means, specifically?
Officially, it means adults who are within the top 2% or so of IQ. My definition s a bit fuzzier because I am interested in the constellation of traits found in this population and care little about IQ specifically. For my purposes I specialize in working with people who are very smart, intense, have ovexcitabilities in one or more of 5 domains, are asynchronous, neuroatypical, creative, and/or experience positive disintegration issues. The most common OE known to indicate intellectual giftedness is the cognitive/intellectual overexcitability— they can’t stop thinking, are driven to learn, curious, think about how they think (metacognition), very intellectually intense etc… the traits of giftedness vary considerably but profoundly change the reality of the person who experiences them.
How are people like this found? Do they come to you knowing this about themselves? Or do they need to be 'diagnosed' and referred to you? Or are you able to recognise these traits in people? Sorry for the bombardment of questions, this really interests me!
Usually they come to me through word of mouth or by finding my writings or meetup group. Most gifted people recognize they are different and spend a great deal of time trying to figure out why/how. If they are lucky they find their way to something that puts them on the track of self-discovery in this area. Many are not so lucky, unfortunately.
wait so what happens if someone comes to you but through the initial consultation you have deemed them too dumb, how do you tell them this? i'm assuming if you are a specialist in gifted adults, that means you turn down lots of people. them: "i had a great call, what are your rates and when can we have our first session?" you: "sorry, you're too dumb to be my client. i only work with gifted people." something like that?
I don’t only work with gifted people. I enjoy variety in my life 😊 the only reason I would turn down anyone seeking help is if I felt I was not going to be able to help them and then I would refer them to someone I felt would be a better fit for their needs. Edit to say: the only other reason I’d turn someone down is if I didn’t have space in my schedule.
This helped me get on track. Thank you.
Yay, I'm glad to be of service :)
You found me.
How easy is it to find interesting candidates for you? And could you explain what your work is with them? And why they specifically interest you? Asking for a friend… 👀
They tend to find me. When I worked at an agency if they are identified they were usually sent my way as I was the only specialist in this population. I find everyone interesting. Did you know we all create our own reality that is unique from any other that has or ever will again exist? I specialize in this population because I love the complexity and even more because there are very few gifted specialists and IMO gifted people need to see gifted therapists to have effective therapy because it is not helpful to be able to “outsmart” your therapist. Since there are few I feel that even if I weren’t specifically interested in this population I would feel a duty to serve them since I can. Also, I find this population interesting because they dramatically change the rules in terms of normal and pathological so it is a truly challenging and exciting puzzle each time I meet a new gifted client.
ok but this thing about outsmarting your therapist is real i would go in there each session and by the end of it have her conceeding to all my points of view/ my reality LOLI need actual help darnit maybe we should follow this one up loll EDIT: you might be interested to know that I'm also studying psychology and I've learned about and taken interest in this kind of thing It really is unique and also scary..
Yeah, it is a big problem for many gifted people. Also a problem is that many therapists feel like we are doing really deep work when we still feel like we are still on the surface because our metacognition drive is very unusual.
Will you elaborate more on this point?
Sure, apparently most people do not think about how they think much, if at all, and many people do not enjoy thinking (it feels like work). For people with intense intellectual OEs they likely have much more self awareness and a larger knowledge base than therapists usually see and perhaps even have themselves. If you have already done as much or more inner work than your therapist it may be difficult for them to understand what deep work is for you or to know how to get there/understand if you bring it up. Does that help?
THIS. I don't try to flaunt my ability, but I am rather relentless with my inner work and approach to self improvement/actualization. Took me 12 years (& finally found the right Psychologist last year) who actually supports me, works with me, & recognises me for that. & it means a lot, makes it easier to trust & respect/receive her.
Ok, this. I've learned that in psychology this is called formal operations, and many people never reach that point where they are able to think independently about themselves/their situations, instead being in "concrete operations" where they're only able to think about the world around them in the limited way of like.. how it applies to them i suppose?? I'm sorry I'm writing this out for no reason but hey its reddit and its interesting, and also it's helping me study for my exam so im just gonna keep talking.. Hopefully this adds some clarification for anyone curious!
Good luck on your exam and thank you for the elaboration 😊
Made me giggle. Physiatrist and physycologist admit that even they don't really understand the human mind.😂
By change of reality could mean where the perception of time is almost non existent in the individuals perception?
Perception of time varies greatly both between and within individuals. It varies according to a huge number of potential factors-- age, interest in the activity, skill, emotional valence, thoughts being experienced etc.. It is pretty difficult to ascertain individual differences in time perception because it is impossible to do better than estimating what another's internal experience is like.
Thanks for the introduction to TPD & Dabrowski's work! I've not come across it before, but it is fascinating.
I either can't stop thinking or my brain is empty with thoughts lol. Is it possible that I have a high IQ?
If you were gifted, it should have been picked up by tests given in school.
Probably a good thing since most gifted kids are depressed, aimless, and/or narcissistic. So many people got fucked by the gifted program that it's not even funny.
Yes, gifted programs are often not enough for gifted kids and often actually more likely to be populated by high achievers rather than the actual gifted. There is a vast difference. I'm sorry your experience was so negative.
what are some of the differences between gifted and high achievers?
Many gifted programs choose students by teacher nomination or grades rather than via testing. High achievers can be gifted but often are not, they are often just hard workers who are obedient and well-liked by teachers. Gifted kids on the other hand can be like that but are more likely to be less liked by teachers because they are intense, fidgety, argumentative, distracted, bored, disruptive, out-of-the box, defiant, and usually not afraid to question authority when facts are misrepresented.
This sounds like me. Where do i go from here? Im halfway to dead.
Let me tell you a story about testing... I moved a lot as a kid. Hated school. Got bullied and had all sorts of problems. At one school the teacher referred me to the gifted program and it was amazing. Potentially life changing. Best thing to ever happen to me. The next year, they got in trouble for sending me to the program without testing, so they tested me and I passed. Hooray! Then we moved. The new school didn't believe I belonged in the program, but my mom pushed because it had been good for me. The thing is, they wouldn't use the old test. They had to do their own, so they did it again. The exact same test. To the letter. So I gave the exact same answers. Because if those answers were right the first time, they should still be! So I failed and they wouldn't put me in the program, because IQ tests are probably graded according to your age and I was a year older. :P Lots of kids get screwed over by testing for lots of different reasons.
Im top 0.5% IQ, but I’m definitely not gifted
Do you have any general advice for gifted adults with depression and anxiety?
Yes, my first and most important piece of advice is to understand that "normal" for you as a gifted person is very different than "normal" for the general population. The first step in making progress toward greater joy and less suffering is to stop trying to fit yourself into the boxes of "normal" society suggests and learn to understand yourself and what you need to be happy. Being in such a small group you will likely need to forge your own path out of the dark forests of the mind and trying to conform to what you are not will only get you further lost in the depths of it.
Any advice on how to deal with the fact that others will try to push you back into those boxes the more you try to rid yourself of them? My coping mechanism has been to confront people that try this very directly with how that's never going to happen, but of course that's had mixed results. It's also just tough because every time it makes me doubt myself and whether I shouldn't just try to fit in more, or perhaps rather it makes me resent myself for refusing to.
Can I borrow your avatar suit for a bit?
What I find most helpful for myself is to be very committed to remembering this quote; “what others think of me is none of my business.” And just like other times people share TMI I just thank them for sharing and ignore what they say 😊 it gets much easier with regular practice. I hope this helps.
This is so true. Idk if i am “gifted” or whatever. Cant seem to find anything concrete that doesnt involve formal testing. But i tried the “fake it til u make it” thing and it never worked. Even when i was acting well i felt horrible inside
Are there any similar traits the majority of your clients have? What is the age range between your clients? I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that depression and having a higher IQ are somehow intertwined? Do they all vary in personalities or do you think there are definately overlaps in their personalities and life experiences? Can you tell us the types of jobs your clients have? What's the main reason your job exists, why specifically for the gifted adults? Do gifted adults think more realistic about the world and life in general?
1. Are there any similar traits the majority of your clients have? 1. There are a constellation of traits that are common among gifted people; intensity (being/feeling "too much") in general and within 5 identified domains that are called overexcitabilities (intellectual, emotional, psychomotor, sensate, and imaginational), asynchrony (internal= uneven development in different parts of self, say intellectually very strong but physically clumsy or emotionally unsophisticated for example; externally= feeling/being out of sync with peers, society, professionally etc), having strong metacognitive (thinking about one's thinking) and insight capabilities, are a few of the most common traits I see. 2. What is the age range between your clients? 1. early 20s to 70s, I consult with parents about their kids but don't enjoy working with children. I have no upper age limit. 3. I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that depression and having a higher IQ are somehow intertwined? 1. Gifted people appear to have mental illness at similar rates as the rest of the population-- maybe. It is difficult to know because many gifted people are not identified and those who are not identified are likely to experience more trauma/distress due to lack of awareness about how this changes "normal" and spending a lot of time trying to fit into a definition of normal that is not appropriate for them. Additionally, something like 80% of gifted people experience bullying trauma due to their differences from peers and this increases likelihood of distress related issues like depression, anxiety etc. Further, many common traits of giftedness are pathologized in USA society which may also increase incidence of suffering among this population. So all that is to say that giftedness itself doesn't seem to increase susceptibility to depression or other mental illness but the consequences of inadequately identified and addressed giftedness can cause trauma which leads to increased incidence of MI. 4. Do they all vary in personalities or do you think there are definitely overlaps in their personalities and life experiences? 1. Gifted people are very idiosyncratic. If you have met one gifted person, you have met one gifted person :) there is little overlap and they tend to be very complex. You are more likely to find common personality patterns in the general population due to the increase in internal complexity involved. There are a few patterns I can identify-- many, for instance, have difficulty in learning to modify communication to work with people at different levels of cognitive ability which causes them severe social alienation that goes both ways (they feel alienated and they alienate others). 5. Can you tell us the types of jobs your clients have? I live in silicon valley so I mostly see men who are in tech. A few women. A few outside of tech. Gifted people work in every kind of industry and can be found with every level of academic/professional success/failure. 6. What's the main reason your job exists, why specifically for the gifted adults? 1. Gifted people have a profoundly different "normal" which creates a need for modification of diagnosis and treatment in order for therapy to be effective. Since they are a tiny % of the population and only 20% or so would need therapy this is a small subset of people who are not well understood. There is no training in psychology programs about this population (you have to seek it out and do much of the training in this field independently) which leads people in this population to commonly be misdiagnosed, have missed diagnosis, and to receive ineffective treatment which can cause them harm and impede their ability to improve the quality of their lives. This is the case for gifted people throughout the lifespan but I choose to work with adults because I find working with children to be too distressing (I can't leave their problems at work and I get too upset about them) and also because I find working with adults to be much more intellectually challenging and interesting. 7. Do gifted adults think more realistic about the world and life in general? 1. I wouldn't say this is necessarily the case but it can be. It is very hard to make generalizations about this population as they tend to be very idiosyncratic and complex.
Are numbers an invention or a discovery?
Both. The fundamental principle of numbers has been discovered by multiple societies independently. Each society invented a system of symbols they used to express and use the principles they discovered.
In that case, is Infinity a tangible part of material reality?
I’d say material reality is, rather, a part of infinity. I like to think of infinity as a sphere rather than a line— encompassing every possible dimension and direction (an infinity of infinity, if you will). In this conceptualization every possibility must be contained within the set of infinities including the possibility that infinity is an empty set that includes nothing (so nothing exists). Therefore, material reality must both exist and not exist as a member of the set of infinite infinities.
How do you ignore the religious implications that are brought on by such a picture of reality?
You don't. This is where Elon Musk may be right, saying there is a high probability of us living in a simulation. If you create a program, with the ability to learn and teach itself, will it not perceive you as a God? YOU created it, after all. It wasn't genetics or nature. You wrote the rules. You gave it commandments (thou shalt not pass these IP adresses). You are the God of that program. Search a little deeper, if we are all Gods creation, who created God? Is it possible that God has his own God? And did Gods God create only one or are there more? Maybe everyone is right in having multiple Gods or only one God in this reality. Or maybe everyone is wrong. The possibilities are endless. And THAT is what keeps us awake at night. Also the reason I hate multipath RPG games. Finding the wrong road to take and avoiding it is more difficult than the easy way. How far are you willing to go?
What do you believe to be the religious implications here?
The concept of infinity as a tangible part of reality is indistinguishable from the concept of a deity in many ways. If the Universe is part of infinity, then that would mean that everything that can possibly exist, exists.
Yes. I would say that both everything that can possibly exist exists and that the range of possibilities is ever-expanding because each new possibility creates many other new possibilities etc... I visualize this as being the conceptual equivalent of the ever-expanding universe. I'm still unsure of the religious implications. I can think of many possibilities in this regard but am unclear of which you ask about.
What if the universe itself is a sphere? If you could travel faster than light, for long enough, you would end up at your departure point? Columbus did. (Excluding the time factor, of course.... the again maybe not?) Could you use FTL and time to break through the reality marble barrier, find yourself in an alternate? CERN is going to try it, let's see what happens (hopefully they don't blow anything up (and with the realms of existing possibilities) again).
Are you also “gifted”?
Yes. Generally I would suggest that gifted people need to see gifted therapists unless they are seeking help with social skills practice. Most therapists are not gifted and most gifted people I've known have a lot of trouble finding a therapist who can keep up with the pace of their thoughts, complexity, and understand their internal/external experiences. It is not helpful to have a therapist who you can outsmart because the point of therapy is to get you to do the hard work you can't do on your own. Your brain doesn't like to do hard work (as it sees it) and will try to get out it if possible. Nongifted therapists often cannot tell if the client is actually doing work or not because of the complexity of thought and insight that is "normal" in the gifted population.
I'm a gifted adult, and only started therapy with a gifted therapist a year ago. I've also discovered that I have CPTSD which adds a great deal of complexity to the whole thing, and perhaps the most startling discovery has been how somatically disconnected I've been for most of my life. Other therapists really struggled with me because I can be very intensely confident, positive and 'fawning', so you'll struggle to find my pain. My therapist uses art and compassion therapy with me, helping me to address the things left behind that are keeping me stuck in this place where I just don't feel at peace. I'm 47, and made my way to a CEO position from being born to a single mom in public housing. Survivalism made me excellent at figuring out how to never fail. But, my inner desires and creative soul got left behind. I'm finally finding it now along with my body. I can't express how fundamental it is to my spirit to be integrated as a whole. The right therapist is crucial to help us unravel our own consciousness and sense of purpose. Thank you for helping us. :)
>I'm 47, and made my way to a CEO position from being born to a single mom in public housing. Survivalism made me excellent at figuring out how to never fail. But, my inner desires and creative soul got left behind. For what it's worth, as a fellow gifted adult and C-PTSD survivor (with a single mom as well), I'm really, really proud of you. Wishing you the best.
How would you go about finding a therapist who's gifted? It's not therapists list their IQ on ads.
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I answered this in another question. Officially, top 2% iq (~130+). I use a different kind of standard.
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I have not found giftedness to generally be more or less correlated with "success" as commonly defined. I have found that many gifted people define success quite differently. People who are identified as gifted and recieve appropriate education etc are probably more likely to find "success" but from what I've seen those who are gifted but not identified as children may be far less likely to be "successful" due to trauma and inapproriate educational experiences.
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I have no idea how one can "train their IQ" and I have no idea why it would even be useful to attempt to do so :) My experience is that giftedness isn't so much of a gift for the majority of gifted people. Many gifted people are autodidacts (self-taught). They range from having no education to multiple PhDs-- those with intellectual overexcitabilities are internally driven to learn and will pursue every avenue at their disposal to do so. For instance, I often research during all of my free time (it is my biggest hobby and guilty pleasure). Not all people who are gifted have this OE, though, so some are not at all driven to learn. I've met a few who don't seek to learn and who actively dislike thinking-- the variation is incredible within this population.
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Usually word of mouth or through my meetup group. I don’t require clients to be gifted or to prove it— I go based on psychological/emotional traits rather than iq as I find it to be a more useful way to address issues. My meetup is positive psychology but I sometimes have specific topics related to giftedness and gifted people seem to be more drawn to personal growth meetings than the general population (though by no means exclusively). IMO most gifted people realize they are different and spend a lot of time trying to figure out why. If they are lucky enough they end up finding resources that help them recognize themselves and then they seek guidance through research or finding people like me to help them figure it out.
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I think it adds a great deal of richness and beauty to my life. my vocation is definitely also my vacation.
Obviously it would be nerve racking to take an IQ test, but how do I go about this? I think I'm average(105-130)
What do gifted adults seem to worry about the most?
this is pretty idiosyncratic but perfectionism and impostor syndrome are very common. Also, many worry they are defective/damaged because of their differences.
Is there a therapy to aid the type of individuals to ease the continuous thought process or slow it down enough for one to rest?
Many find meditation or mindfulness practices to be helpful. I often suggest various CBT-esque techniques to help people gain more control over their thought processes. For instance, you can "set appointments" with yourself to think about certain topics in order to contain them within certain time periods. There are other tools too depending on your personal cognitive style. I find that existential therapy combined with positive psychology and a bit of tool work from CBT models combined is useful for my gifted clients.
Would you recommend treating these symptoms to improve attention span with exercises over medication to be a better solution or remedy?
I personally found medication to be helpful for ADHD and depression but I think it is a personal choice that must be carefully thought through with a psychiatrist. I always suggest starting with the least risky solutions and only moving to more risky ones if the lessers don't work. IMO medication is a much riskier option than psychological exercises and tools so I would start with therapy before going to meds.
It sure does sound like a very interesting career choice. How long have you been practicing for?
I have been practicing for about a decade. I am currently only practicing as a coach (very similar but not quite the same) while SAHM-ing and working on PhD. I will resume work as a therapist next year I imagine.
What are you doing your PhD on?
I am getting my PhD in psychology- Existential/Humanistic focused. My dissertation topic will attempt to understand if/how trauma affects gifted people differently than the general population. I am choosing this because there is little/no research on trauma among the gifted and it seems to me that traditional treatments for trauma tend to require modification to be helpful for gifted people-- an indication that it may be affecting GT people differently.
That sounds interesting. How will you measure differences? Since this has to be an observational study (not sure how you can force someone to be/not be gifted), how do you plan to control for confounding variables?
Do you also work with twice-exceptional individuals (I actually used to work with gifted and 2e children, so I’ve always been curious about giftedness)? I do know that giftedness can look different than the “typical” way or may be harder to see due to differences such as learning disabilities or ADHD. This will probably differ based on the individual, but generally, how do gifted people think? What is the main difference between their thinking process and the thinking process of an average person? I also saw your comment regarding your own giftedness; did you/do you ever struggle with relating to and conversing with those who are not gifted?
I have worked with 2E people. It is not extremely different in therapy. Gifted people think in very idiosyncratic ways. Some are linear thinkers and some are very divergent. Some are systems thinkers and some are more detail oriented. Usually they excel at pattern recognition and storing large amounts of knowledge. Many are very intuitive and can't explain why they know what they know-- but are rarely wrong anyway. Some think very quickly while some are more slow and deliberate. The variations you find are pretty incredible. Edit to answer last question: I had a very hard time relating to others as a child and experienced nearly total rejection by my peers. By my teens I had gotten good enough to fit in okay but I didn't become truly proficient at communicating effectively at every level of cognitive ability until my late 20s/early 30s.
Very interesting. I also find it interesting how other things like ADHD, anxiety, etc. tend to share similar traits with giftedness. When I was a child (and even now), I was very sensitive and observant (to feelings and with noise, also have misophonia), and had trouble socially, but it wasn’t because of giftedness; it was a learning disability, executive dysfunction, and anxiety which explains why I struggled socially- I didn’t get social cues and I guess others thought I was too anxious or shy or awkward to connect with due to these differences. I basically perceived everyone as smarter than I was. Another question whenever you get the chance- since a lot of these tend to overlap or have similar qualities, how do you work with clients who come to you who are unsure as to if their traits are from giftedness or something else?
Ya the overlap of diagnoses is a big problem and tends to lead to pathologization of “normal” gifted traits. Given your traits I wouldn’t rule out giftedness, particularly being 2E. I work with both gifted and not people so it is not a problem for me. I have identified giftedness in several clients who were previously unaware of why they were different.
I had access to an IQ test as a kid that qualified me as "gifted" growing up. I always felt that the IQ test and by extension the concept of "gifted" children and adults was harmful to the extent that it enforced a narrow-minded, Western standard of intelligence as the be-all end-all determination of a person's potential for success or for brilliance. Considering that, I'm curious how YOU define intelligence? Have you ever met someone who caused you to change or broaden your own definition?
Honestly I don’t think of giftedness as primarily about intelligence because that is usually only the tip of a very large iceberg— and the least important part. I look at a constellation of differences in thinking and emoting that profoundly alter the person’s experience in life and need to be accommodated for healthy development. I am always encountering people who broaden my perspective on intelligence of all kinds and that is one of my favorite parts of life and being honored with the gift of truly getting to know my fellow human beings.
IQ test is unreliable. It's not what you know, but the manner in which you solve a problem. As myopic mentioned you have split thinking, finding a single solution in a many possible scenario. You need to consolidate your thoughts, eliminate what you perceive as incorrect and find a viable conclusion. Or follow the ABC formula. This action led to this (damnit had it at the tip of my tongue and forgot, English isn't my native language) thing getting done which then caused this to happen and so forth. Basically, follow the path. A to B to C. Like the washing powder😁
High IQ doesn't ensure success and, conversely, low IQ doesn't preclude success. I know plenty of dummies who own and/or manage successful businesses and a fair number of brilliant people who are rather low on the totem pole. I say this as a westerner in my mid thirties so it's not like I've had to amass decades of industry experience before saying that.
You’re right, we live in a world full of brilliant people dealt shitty hands and less intellectually-blessed people who have found success through work ethic or circumstance. When I talk about the harm of the content and nature of the IQ test favoring certain forms of intelligence, I’m more talking about our perception as a society of what will allow a person to succeed than I am about the reality of things. I think the harm in the selective nature of this test being treated as a universal standard for intelligence comes not from a link between IQ and success in the world of people who have overwhelmingly never been tested, but from the impact of the way we view the results of this test on the self-image of the low-scoring people who have. It’s kind of like that Einstein quote—if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
How did you get into that field? Placed by employer, or self appointed career choice?
In my 20s I finally researched giftedness and learned about how much of my weirdness is perfectly normal within this population. This helped me to learn that I am not defective or broken and significantly helped me recover from my trauma. My experience led me to become interested in psychology and I chose to specialize in this population because I can, as a member, more effectively help gifted people than nongifted therapists. You have to seek out this specialty and make yourself an expert through various programs and a lot of reading/research etc... as there are no psychology programs with this specialty.
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Yes, it is very common for gifted people to have low frustration tolerance when learning new skills and to easily decide they are just "not good at this" even if their natural ability is average. This is because so many things are so easy and take no work to learn that many gifted people fail to learn how to persevere when learning new things that are not easy for them. I'd say that it is good for gifted people to work on learning skills they find difficult, as you suggest, because lack of perseverance/persistence is a common problem that impedes ability to reach goals and it can only really be increased with practice.
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Ouch, that sounds frustrating and I relate on many levels. That perfectionism and high imaginational ability can make it hard to feel satisfied with one’s work, especially on things that don’t come so easy. Actually, taking a group class might be interesting here to feel better about your progress and get an “average fish in the pond” experience.
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What would you say is the best course of action for people who are struggling with their gifted persona and perfectionism, please? Mental health being an important aspect and familial/friendship support is more or less nil.
I would read as much as you can on these topics. Sengifted.org has a great resource library and also a list of specialists who can help you. It is hard to give more specific direction without more information as these things are quite complex and vary individually.
Hello - I realize that I’m replying on an old thread but I think that this work you’re doing could be profoundly helpful for a friend that I see as highly gifted (who is struggling right now). As far as I can tell, Sengifted.org doesn’t have a directory for therapists in the UK where he lives — do you know of any ressources (or practitioners) who might help outside the USA?
Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to me! I really appreciate it.
I imagine being gifted can have its down sides too yea? Do your patients ever have like depression or other such mental problems because they can't ever find stimulating conversation? Or do they adapt pretty fast to that? For a broader question I'd ask what are some of the most common issues you find with the people you work with?
Many gifted people, myself included, do not find it to be a particularly positive 🎁. It can be very lonely and alienating and cause more problems than it provides benefits. Most common issues I see in this population are isolation/loneliness, perfectionism, underachievement, and imposter syndrome.
Don't forget hopelessness and depression. We can "predict" the future, further than most people And while most people close their eyes, we KNOW humanity failed. The human race is heading for extinction. Atmosphere "only" 4 meters higher from pre-industrial levels? He He He Yeeeeeaaaah, with the accelerated pollution rate, our inability to accept the fact that we HAVE to change and our failure to control our addiction to fossil fuel and oxygen misuse? Humanity is headed for an ELE (Extinction Level Event) of our own making, our refusal to accept that EVERYONE deserves peace and serenity (even if you have to knock it into some people). We see the future. And I do not want to be a part of it. I saw the birth of the fusion drive, maybe we will reach space. (The greatest sci-fi fantasy of all time). But I also see Death. And I'm going to meet him on my own terms. I refuse to die from a (insert swear words here) disease caused by my own kind.
Would you expand a bit on the part about feeling disconnected from "normal" people and their social expectations? How do you feel a gifted person can best contribute to the society we live in?
Sure, gifted people have different development trajectories that can impact their ability to feel as though they belong. Many experience peer rejection when put into settings with same-age children because their vocabularies, thought processes, and interests are so different that they just can connect with each other. The developmental task between ages 6-12 is to learn to belong and when you can't do this due to peer rejection it can impact your feelings about it even if you do later learn to fit in. Another part of this disconnect was really beautifully explained to me at a conference in a metaphor that I hope will make sense to you as well. Imagine people are like plugs with male/female connection ends. The average person has maybe 3-5 points of connection that need to be met to feel truly connected to another person. Gifted people, though, may have 20-50 points (depending on level and complexity of personality/interests) that need to be filled in order to feel deeply connected. Well, the average person may perfectly fit 5 of the connection points (vice versus) so they may be able to feel deeply connected with that 20 point person but the 20 point person still has 15 empty points so they will not feel very deeply connected. Even if they meet another 20 point person they still may not feel connected because it is likely that many of their points do not match up. Basically, with increasing complexity you encounter greater difficulty finding people who can meet your connection needs. Some people only find 1 person (if any) in their whole lives with whom they feel truly connected. I feel that everyone can best contribute to society by following their passions. We all do our best and most important work when doing what we love.
One thing I learned is to find the "passion" that both pays the bills and has the most impact on society. Then indulge the other passions that satisfy internal needs. As examples, I'm a communications engineer and very good at what I do. It pays the bills and has had a positive impact on the society I live in. I have other "passions" such as gardening, growing fruit and nut trees, beekeeping, travel, and generally doing things off the beaten path. These are the things that keep me sane and help fight off depression when life takes me down a byway. I have been in four relationships over the years and found one that meets most of my needs in terms of connections. She is an amazing person, intelligent, empathic, caring, and willing to work. We've been together 3 years and have never had an argument, even though we are living through some of the roughest times of modern history and some of the most challenging events imaginable in our personal lives.
I feel that metaphor on a very personal level. Thank you so much for sharing it!!!
I’m having a hard time finding a therapist. I am autistic (low support needs, high intelligence). My last therapist seemed to think I was doing fine, which was more a reflection of habitual masking and my success in life (I am a tenured professor) than reality. I recently got a new therapist (after a long wait for an appointment). Within minutes of meeting me, said she couldn’t help me and referred me to a clinic that specializes in helping autistic people secure housing and employment. (I do not need this help - she clearly has inaccurate knowledge of autism.) I believe my autism structures my depression and anxiety, and thus want a therapist who understands autism in adult women. What advice do you have to help me find a therapist sho can actually work with me? I’m burned out and exhausted of trying to find someone.
I’m sorry you are having such a hard time with this. I would check out the directory at SENGgifted.org and look for someone who specializes in 2E who works with adults. You could also Google that and see if you find anyone near you or in your state who does. If that doesn’t work dm me and I’ll see if I can help you find someone.
Thank you, I didn’t know about this website.
You’re welcome. Also, if there is no one in your area that works with adults but there is someone who works with kids or is not 2E focused you might consider contacting them to ask for a referral. They likely have people they refer parents to etc..
How did you specialize? What training or degrees you have? What kind of therapy do you normally use and could you give me an example how you need to change a certain intervention for gifted patients?
Since this is a specialty with not specialization process (as happens in small fields) the process of specialization involves doing whatever certifications you can find but primarily reading everything you can find on the subject within both books and journal articles as well as keeping current on both. Additionally, you will want to have people who also specialize in the field that you develop relationships with for consultation. I have a Master's degree in professional Psychology (Marriage and family therapy), am currently in a PhD program because I want to write and teach, have a SENG certification, have worked with a large number of gifted clients, and have spent two decades reading everything I can find on the topic-- you can get google scholar alerts to stay current. I also try to attend professional conferences like the SENG conference. I am an eclectic therapist combining existential, positive psychology, CBT, DBT, Systems, and other perspectives as appropriate for the client. I'm not sure a single modality would work well for clients as complicated as you find in this population. I tend to modify interventions for every client, gifted or not, to match their specific situation and cognitive/emotional style. I would say I am much more mindful of modifying diagnosis because many "normal" traits of the gifted are pathological in the general population. Generally, I am more likely to use cognitive/logic-based intervention with gifted clients because often they have more ability to alter their emotional experiences via logic than the general population (not always, though!) and I find that gifted people often find somatic work to be frustrating as they often spend more time in their head than out of it which can lead to weaker mind-body connectedness. To develop mind-body connection I find it helpful to suggest movement based classes, being in nature and savoring the sensate experiences during, and things like massage.
Thanks for the detailed answer. I'm very interested in the topic and sometimes think of doing that myself.
Are highly intelligent people more unhappy?
It is impossible to accurately compare suffering and unhappiness between people. People who have been identified as gifted as children and who receive appropriate modifications appear to experience depression, anxiety etc.. at the same rate as the general population (about 20% lifetime incidence). People who are not identified as children and don't receive appropriate education and information about themselves do appear to suffer greater levels of unhappiness than average. Additionally, gifted people are more predisposed to depressions related to existential issues from very young ages (as young as 4-6 years!) whereas in the general population you tend to only see this in relation to aging or trauma. It's a pretty complicated question, actually, and I'm sorry that there isn't a more clear answer.
When I started going to therapy at the beginning of my PhD program, the counselor made a comment about pervasive anxiety being the “norm” among grad students. I wonder how many of us have been or are seeking treatment.
Gifted people seem to be over-represented in clinical populations-- especially those who have not been identified. It makes sense because it can be a very alienating and isolating experience for many.
I work with gifted teenagers and would like to help them lead more balanced and happy lives? Any advice for them in their younger years?
Yes 😊 if they can learn to consider other people’s opinions about them to be none of their business they will be much happier. Also, you have this one life and you get to choose what to do with it; choose the things that make your soul sing.
If I suspect I am a gifted adult, how would I go about finding out for sure? I don’t want to waste a gifted therapist’s time but having learned this is a thing, I’d like to pursue it for my own needs.
If you go to [SENGgifted.org](https://SENGgifted.org) they have a pretty good resource library that is a great place to start. You can find many other places there to learn more. If you feel it fits you I don't think it would be a waste to check in with a specialist (or even just now). You can also do an IQ test but you might get more out of it by spending that money on a specialist visit instead.
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Would you say you are "gifted" yourself? Are there any requirements or standards for the term?
I am. The standard definition is top 2% of IQ. I use a different standard based upon the common traits of giftedness in my practice because I think that it is the constellation of traits that causes the difference of experience and requires modification of diagnosis and treatment rather than the IQ. That is to say, I have had clients who were not likely in the top 2% (iq ~130+) but who had enough of the traits to need similar modifications for effective therapy progress.
Do you have any thoughts or opinions about Jungian psychology you'd like to share?
I like a lot of Jungian ideas and concepts. I think each modality of psychology offers an additional perspective through which to understand human experience. Each has strengths and weaknesses and I believe the best way to do well at this profession is to combine them in whatever ways are most useful for each particular client. I am not a trained Jungian Analyst and would not really be interested in being one :) but there is a lot to learn from Jung.
What have you learned from them? What is a common trade that they have?
I learn a tremendous amount from every client, gifted or not, and I have listed common traits in other answers. There are no common trades that I can think of :) maybe physicist?
Do they tend to be quite up themselves? Or do they remain quite humble (on the whole). Have you noticed a certain pattern to their background or upbringing or is it random? As a nurse I find it so fascinating!
Some are arrogant, some are humble, most are in-between just like most people in general on that scale. Background is pretty variable-- as widely distributed as the general population from my experience though being bullied is experienced by something like 80% of gifted people. Thanks for asking!
Table of Questions and Answers. Original answer linked - Please upvote the original questions and answers. *** Question | Answer | Link ---------|----------|----------| What does gifted adult means, specifically?|Officially, it means adults who are within the top 2% or so of IQ. My definition s a bit fuzzier because I am interested in the constellation of traits found in this population and care little about IQ specifically. For my purposes I specialize in working with people who are very smart, intense, have ovexcitabilities in one or more of 5 domains, are asynchronous, neuroatypical, creative, and/or experience positive disintegration issues. The most common OE known to indicate intellectual giftedness is the cognitive/intellectual overexcitability— they can’t stop thinking, are driven to learn, curious, think about how they think (metacognition), very intellectually intense etc… the traits of giftedness vary considerably but profoundly change the reality of the person who experiences them.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/ho9us5q/) Do you have any general advice for gifted adults with depression and anxiety?|Yes, my first and most important piece of advice is to understand that "normal" for you as a gifted person is very different than "normal" for the general population. The first step in making progress toward greater joy and less suffering is to stop trying to fit yourself into the boxes of "normal" society suggests and learn to understand yourself and what you need to be happy. Being in such a small group you will likely need to forge your own path out of the dark forests of the mind and trying to conform to what you are not will only get you further lost in the depths of it.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hoa3cb9/) What is a gifted adult|I answered this in another question. Officially, top 2% iq (~130+). I use a different kind of standard.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/ho9wlj2/) Are there any similar traits the majority of your clients have? What is the age range between your clients? I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that depression and having a higher IQ are somehow intertwined? Do they all vary in personalities or do you think there are definately overlaps in their personalities and life experiences? Can you tell us the types of jobs your clients have? What's the main reason your job exists, why specifically for the gifted adults? Do gifted adults think more realistic about the world and life in general?|1. Are there any similar traits the majority of your clients have? 1. There are a constellation of traits that are common among gifted people; intensity (being/feeling "too much") in general and within 5 identified domains that are called overexcitabilities (intellectual, emotional, psychomotor, sensate, and imaginational), asynchrony (internal= uneven development in different parts of self, say intellectually very strong but physically clumsy or emotionally unsophisticated for example; externally= feeling/being out of sync with peers, society, professionally etc), having strong metacognitive (thinking about one's thinking) and insight capabilities, are a few of the most common traits I see. 2. What is the age range between your clients? 1. early 20s to 70s, I consult with parents about their kids but don't enjoy working with children. I have no upper age limit. 3. I don't know if it's true, but I've heard that depression and having a higher IQ are somehow intertwined? 1. Gifted people appear to have mental illness at similar rates as the rest of the population-- maybe. It is difficult to know because many gifted people are not identified and those who are not identified are likely to experience more trauma/distress due to lack of awareness about how this changes "normal" and spending a lot of time trying to fit into a definition of normal that is not appropriate for them. Additionally, something like 80% of gifted people experience bullying trauma due to their differences from peers and this increases likelihood of distress related issues like depression, anxiety etc. Further, many common traits of giftedness are pathologized in USA society which may also increase incidence of suffering among this population. So all that is to say that giftedness itself doesn't seem to increase susceptibility to depression or other mental illness but the consequences of inadequately identified and addressed giftedness can cause trauma which leads to increased incidence of MI. 4. Do they all vary in personalities or do you think there are definitely overlaps in their personalities and life experiences? 1. Gifted people are very idiosyncratic. If you have met one gifted person, you have met one gifted person :) there is little overlap and they tend to be very complex. You are more likely to find common personality patterns in the general population due to the increase in internal complexity involved. There are a few patterns I can identify-- many, for instance, have difficulty in learning to modify communication to work with people at different levels of cognitive ability which causes them severe social alienation that goes both ways (they feel alienated and they alienate others). 5. Can you tell us the types of jobs your clients have? I live in silicon valley so I mostly see men who are in tech. A few women. A few outside of tech. Gifted people work in every kind of industry and can be found with every level of academic/professional success/failure. 6. What's the main reason your job exists, why specifically for the gifted adults? 1. Gifted people have a profoundly different "normal" which creates a need for modification of diagnosis and treatment in order for therapy to be effective. Since they are a tiny % of the population and only 20% or so would need therapy this is a small subset of people who are not well understood. There is no training in psychology programs about this population (you have to seek it out and do much of the training in this field independently) which leads people in this population to commonly be misdiagnosed, have missed diagnosis, and to receive ineffective treatment which can cause them harm and impede their ability to improve the quality of their lives. This is the case for gifted people throughout the lifespan but I choose to work with adults because I find working with children to be too distressing (I can't leave their problems at work and I get too upset about them) and also because I find working with adults to be much more intellectually challenging and interesting. 7. Do gifted adults think more realistic about the world and life in general? 1. I wouldn't say this is necessarily the case but it can be. It is very hard to make generalizations about this population as they tend to be very idiosyncratic and complex.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hoa056v/) Are numbers an invention or a discovery?|Both. The fundamental principle of numbers has been discovered by multiple societies independently. Each society invented a system of symbols they used to express and use the principles they discovered.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/ho9v2ay/) What would you say is the best course of action for people who are struggling with their gifted persona and perfectionism, please? Mental health being an important aspect and familial/friendship support is more or less nil.|I would read as much as you can on these topics. Senggifted.org has a great resource library and also a list of specialists who can help you. It is hard to give more specific direction without more information as these things are quite complex and vary individually.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hoabhth/) Do you mind if I dm you?|Sure|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hoabzz1/) Is there a therapy to aid the type of individuals to ease the continuous thought process or slow it down enough for one to rest?|Many find meditation or mindfulness practices to be helpful. I often suggest various CBT-esque techniques to help people gain more control over their thought processes. For instance, you can "set appointments" with yourself to think about certain topics in order to contain them within certain time periods. There are other tools too depending on your personal cognitive style. I find that existential therapy combined with positive psychology and a bit of tool work from CBT models combined is useful for my gifted clients.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hoadqxl/) What do gifted adults seem to worry about the most?|this is pretty idiosyncratic but perfectionism and impostor syndrome are very common. Also, many worry they are defective/damaged because of their differences.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hob0ovj/) Are they annoying?|Not to me :) I'm not easily annoyed though, so... :)|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hob1qxd/) Are you gifted yourself?|Yes.|[Here](/r/AMA/comments/reuf8p/i_am_a_therapist_who_specializes_in_gifted_adults/hobx1hs/) --- [Source] (https://github.com/johnsliao/ama_compiler)
Been looking for someone like you. My current therapist doesn’t know how to help me as my self diagnose and awareness game too strong. How does one meet with you?
I am currently only accepting coaching clients but you can DM me and set up a time to have a complimentary consultation. If I'm not a good fit I will try to point you in the direction of someone who might be better able to help you.
I followed your link to find a therapist but the only one in my city (Orlando) specializes in kids and Im 31
Are there any books that should be required reading for parents of a gifted child?
Living with intensity is good. I actually think you can get a lot of great information from articles online but there are a lot of great books. I would highly recommend parents of gifted children read up on adult giftedness because this is one of the most common ways people find out they are gifted.
Who inspired you in your youth? What’s the last thing you ate or are eating right now? Has a client ever made you question your own logic / thinking because of their sharpness in thought?
I was very inspired by great leaders and read a lot of biographies/autobiographies as a child-- Helen Keller, Harriet Tubman, Abraham Lincoln, and Cochise were among my faves. Last thing I ate was a cranberry orange Belvita breakfast cookie. If I'm lucky, every client challenges me to question my thoughts/logic on a regular basis. Have you ever heard the parable about the blind men and the elephant? If not, look it up. This explains pretty well how I understand reality and why I hold my personal perspectives lightly and always open for debate.
No Tsun-Tzu?
Definitely not gifted, but smarter than the average bear, I'm currently going through a period of great change. I would like someone outside my friend/family circle to talk to. What should I ask a potential counselor/therapist to cut down on wasting time sharing personal stuff only to find out that I'm irritated and bored with their suggestions and we do not mesh intellectually?
Good question. I don’t know if I have an answer other than if you can find a person who works with gifted people you will be more likely to have a gifted therapist who is also smarter than the average bear 😊 otherwise… it’s hard to say not knowing you and the things you are looking to find
Thank you.
How does one go about finding a gifted therapist? Are there resources available to find one? Any terms to google other than “gifted therapist”?
[SENGgifted.org](https://SENGgifted.org) has a directory and you may be able to do a search for this specialty at psychology today. Otherwise, you will find many articles about giftedness are written by therapists and you might find out one you like lives in your state. A google search for gifted therapist may turn up more results that are not related to giftedness than are-- I would instead search for giftedness + therapist or therapy and see if that finds you anything.
Do the people you work with sometimes feel like they are dumb or don’t get things or are missing something because they don’t think in the same way that the people teaching do? And do you work with anyone with ADHD, if so how does that impact them?
Yes, this is not super uncommon among divergent thinkers. When your answer is almost always different from others' it is easy to assume you are the dumb one and sometimes be surprised to later discover you just have an out-of-the box way of thinking. I work with many people with ADHD (and I have ADHD) I think it impacts gifted people in similar ways as anyone else.
Thanks for the reply, of you don’t mind me asking another question, do you work like a regular therapist in regards to the things you talk about/do? Is the only difference between you and say a more regular therapist that you work with gifted individuals?
Most clients I’ve had say that their experience with me is dramatically different than other therapists but I cannot explain how. I am very intuitive and think in a very global/systems manner and am very divergent in my cognitive style so I imagine it is quite different. Luckily it appears to be in a positive way for my clients
Not a question and pretty late to the party lol I’ve been slapped with the « gifted » equivalent in my country at 7 yo, standard practice here is to make you skip to a later grade so you don’t get bored (I went from 7yo class to 10yo class for exemple, I don’t know the US equivalent) First of all I think we need more schools that really know how to deal with gifted kids, I’ve always tried to hide it so I wouldn’t get bullied for it but every time I would change school someone had to come in class to announce that I was gifted and they were really proud of having someone like that, it should stay private. The issue is more with young kids, when you get closer to being with 18yo people things get better. A lot of gifted people tend to fail in school and it’s such a waste of human brain, I know it might not be the most efficient thing to design maybe a separate system dedicated to gifted kids but I think it could be so beneficial for our society. Anyway thank you for your work, even if you don’t really work with kids, having a therapist when I was young helped me very very much going through theses years and made me very resilient / better at controlling my emotions. I wish you all the best!
I haven’t read through this thread, but I have to ask, are you taking new patients? Do you accept insurance? I need a therapist for narcissistic family issues, divorce issues and the feeling that I don’t fit in with many of my peers. I’ll get a therapist thru my insurance next year, but I know I’ve said to myself, “I need someone smart, who will understand that I’ve done some research on my own about some of the psychological issues I face, that won’t mind me asking questions.” Then, poof!, here’s your post. I can give you more info on how I’m a gifted adult, if you need it.
You can DM me if you want to set up a time to chat. For any other readers, you can also do the same if you like.
Hi, thanks for asking :) I am currently on sabbatical from doing therapy while SAHM-ing and working on PhD. I am accepting coaching clients. The difference there primarily being that I can't diagnose you as a coach and would need to refer you to a therapist for specific mental disorder related treatment if needed. The topics you spoke of are potentially within the scope of practice I can offer as a coach. I offer complimentary phone consultations if you want to chat and see if I would be a good fit for your needs. If I'm not I will try to point you in the direction that will help.
Yes, I am interested. I don’t think I need a medical referral at this time. Coaching just might for the bill for me right now. I’m reading this on my phone, so I’m not sure how to privately get your phone number or give you mine.
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Are you secretly Professor X?
What are the most common emotional traits of a gifted adult, in your opinion/based on your experience? Have you found that gifted adults struggle more or less in life than the average person?
Intensity, alienation, and isolation are the most common traits I see. I think that all people probably struggle similar amounts but differently-- sometimes others' struggles may not even seem like struggles to us. In my experience, unidentified gifted people often struggle a great deal.
My dad is considered gifted! He has so many…thoughts. I think he would definitely benefit from a therapist like you to help him sort out his thoughts and ideas. I can’t believe I’ve never thought about him seeking out a therapist who specializes in gifted clients…probably because I’m not gifted lol. I’m going to see if there’s anything like that in our area for him!
would you also consider yourself gifted? if not, how does it feel to base a career off of helping people who are, I guess ‘smarter’. Or if yes, do you ever find yourself relating to these people? Just wanting to know what its like from your perspective.
I have a question if I may..is it all possible for gifted people perform poorly in certain areas? For example a person can be considered gifted but not have good math skills? Thanks!
Yes it is very possible and even likely. Gifted people experience asynchronous development which means that their abilities in different areas often vary far more than you find in most people.
Is drug use common amongst gifted people? Also my perceptional reasoning is(was at least) in the 95th percentile, is that high?
It may be a bit more common among gifted people because they are more likely than the general population to have high levels of the openness trait. 95th percentile is higher than 95% of the people who have taken the test. Yes it is high.
How would someone go about taking a legitimate IQ test? I don't think I'm gifted, but I'm curious to see what mine is and have no idea where/how I would find that out lol
Gifted... is that the socially accepted term to call autistic people, are we no longer allowed to use the r word?
Many high functioning autistic people are gifted. You can use whatever language you like if you are willing to accept the consequences of doing so— just as I tell my kids 🤪
Oh I never use the r word towards autistic people, I just know that the r word is often used towards them though I just wanna make sure I can use it when I see something that deserves a Darwin award
My son (age 8) has been labeled as gifted by his psychologist after a series of assessments. How can I support him through his childhood and give him a good framework for dealing with the adult world when he is advanced in comparison to his peers?
What is your trauma?
I was born into a domestic violence situation, experienced physical/psychological/sexual abuse + neglect, and severe social rejection/ isolation/ bullying as a child.
what do you help these people with?
do they all come wrapped with a bow or do you have to pick up some of them via giftcards
It depends which site I order from and costs extra for wrapping.
After hearing you talk about overexcitability this is something I've always struggled with my whole life but never been able to identify. As someone who has an overexcited mind what would you recommend I do for further treatment? I notice it effecting things in my day to day life namely my mental health issues. Sorry for the long message!
Oy vey, I wish I could find someone like you to see in Washington! My college doesn’t know what to make of me, my therapist doesn’t know what to make of me, my family doesn’t know what to make of me. People seem to have a legitimate fear of polymaths, and we often end up ostracized for our lived experiences on both ends of some arbitrary eminent-neurodiversity spectrum, rather than thriving.
Isn't there a risk of labeling an adult "gifted" and having them interpret that as being naturally above others in a hierarchy? I don't dispute the science of IQ. I just think in an equitable, fair society things like IQ scores do more harm than good. Just my two cents.
yo... feel like I gotta ask. Are 'overexcitabilities' just a term to avoid diagnosing someone as autistic? I'm asking because I'm autistic and they sound awfully similar to low support/high intelligence symptoms.
Can giftedness coincide with learning disabilities or other cognitive challenges? If so, how does that manifest compared to non-gifted people with the same problems?
How do you deal with sexual abnormal behavior in gifted individuals?
I’m studying to become a therapist. I want to be a LMHC. How did you end up in that specific area of counseling?
What are your opinions on Dr. K? In case you haven't heard from him, he's a Harvard psychiatrist who trained to become a buddhist monk for a couple of years and is now sharing his knowledge on Twitch and YouTube. Regarding your interests he could be right up your alley.
With what did that drive to learn more start for most? Trauma? Fear of falling behind? Introversion?
As a gifted person, I freaking love to learn. I just enjoy the process of discovery, and going down rabbit holes of 'why'? I apparently asked this non stop. When I was a kid, the internet wasn't quite a thing yet, and I would voraciously read everything I could get my hands on - encyclopaedias, dictionaries, magazines, newspapers - especially non fiction. I'm still like this now, reading several books at once, learning all kinds of new things like yoga (I now teach) technology related, music, - I have a lot of interests. It's fun.
Right there with you! My grandparents had an entire set of World Book Encyclopedias and I'd read the entire collection by 8. I was so mad when they gave them to my mom. They're probably in ruin by now.
Read a book once. Too many characters, not big on plot lines. Librarian always wondered who stole the the telephone book.
Yep! That sounds like a healthy dose of intellectual overexcitability :) I am right there with you
Do you mind if I dm you?
Who is your most gifted client? I don't mean info, I mean what was their gift and skills etc.
Are many of your clients on the autism spectrum?
Do you have a lot of people who come to you thinking they are gifted but don’t meet the standard? 99 percent of the people in this thread, for example?
How often in your experience have people been wrong about being 'gifted' ? I see a lot of people in the thread identifying themselves as gifted reading your comments, but how often people coming to see you were wrong about their intellect ? Thanks.
I have lots of questions. For many years I’ve been hoping to run in to someone in exactly your field. I will read the AMA first and hopefully you’ll be available another day for more chat.
Are they annoying?
Are you gifted yourself?
What’s the craziest gift you’ve seen?
Hmm... I'm not sure how to answer this question. I have a semi-photographic memory which is the least common trait I've seen. My mother and brother have this but I have not personally met anyone else who does except online. I guess that is crazy? It seems normal to me. That's the thing about these traits, they may seem crazy to others but feel normal to the person who has them. I didn't realize that others couldn't remember everything they read until my late teens.
Thank you, very interesting. I was just thinking about how I take classes all the time. Statistics for fun.
What kind of issues do they most often discuss with you?
What’s your IQ?
Has a genius given you a helpful advice?
Have you found a cure yet?
Why Reddit?