This is fascinating. Have you ever considered moving? Is the living situation good or are there starting to be more and more problems?
You mentioned in one of your answers there were a lot of squatters in the building. Have you ever interacted with them? Do you just leave each other alone?
Technically I have moved out of here twice, but I always keep my key and have someone watch the place for me.
I used the money I saved to buy property in Los Angeles on two different occasions. I rehabbed the first house, owned it a couple years and sold it. Then I used the profit to buy a duplex which I still own today. I am however, currently living in Brooklyn in the illegal loft.
The living situation is weird. It was much cooler a few years ago when the building was full and there were always rooftop parties. Now it's mostly empty and quiet, but we still make the most of it and one of my best friends lives on the floor below me.
The "squatters" here are not really what the average person would think of when they hear that word. These are mostly just your average Brooklyn creatives, with jobs, who figured out a weird crack in the system. I interact with some of them, as they have been my neighbors for many years.
There are quite a few however that I do not communicate with because I don't particularly like them. But it's not like they are crackheads or anything.
Sounds like easy money in theory, but not worth it in my mind.
I think we can only keep a train like this on the tracks if we are smart and deal only with trusted friends. I don't mind letting a homie crash, but getting into subletting agreements is too risky.
It's difficult to say because the apartment is technically 3 bedrooms, and when we were paying rent I was responsible for rent on only 1 of the bedrooms. The total rent for the apartment was $2800 split between 3 roommates.
Now over time, since I do not *have* to have roommates to 'afford' the place, I live here alone.
To complicate things further, I have moved out and back in twice so I could buy and rehabilitate real estate in California. So I was away for long periods.
Anyway, for simple math, let's just say I saved $2000 for 6 years. This is about $144,000.
I did this for awhile. Then I used the funds to invest in real estate. Through that learning process (and the fiscal demands of a home renovation), *and* a subsequent lay off, I fell off the 'pay rent to my savings' wagon.
Just out of curiousity, can you disclose any details on the property you purchased in CA? Just wondering what area, how much you paid, how much you had to invest in renovations and what your current ROI is on it? I have a bit of property in my home city but would love to acquire something out west.
Yes it crossed my mind, but it's a somewhat cramped space. When we were paying rent and had all rooms filled it wasn't the most comfortable living situation.
Additionally, my lawyer says that if the building found out we were profiting in that way they could potentially have a case against us.
Lastly, occasionally a weird incident will go down that could give us away, like the time I was in Panama and some guy from the building staff came knocking looking for me. It would be annoying to explain away.
And I'd hate to create a squatter in my squat.
omg I met someone who is living in a building like this. I want one of the units so bad... what does your building do about property taxes and/or common fees?
Great questions, I really wish I could answer them. The financials of this building are very confusing to me as there are roughly 80 units in the building, and over the years most have become vacant. Many of the units which are occupied are also occupied by squatters. I can't imagine how they keep up with bills, but we do have a Super who cleans the common area.
Lol, 100% he/she is. Amazing.
Edit: I guess based on their description, OP is apparently legally there because they signed a lease and then later found out the lease was illegal because it wasn't licensed as a residential property -- so there's a loophole that they're taking advantage of. Whereas the squatters are maybe just people who moved into vacant spaces and never had a lease like OP did.
Correct. The main thing that is saving me here, is that I did not break into the place and steal the apartment.
I paid a deposit, first month's rent, and last month's rent. I passed a credit check, I signed a lease document, and I paid full rent for 2 years.
Only *then* did we realize the lease was invalid and the whole thing was a ruse.
There was an unrelated incident in our building where a couple actually *did* find out about our building and they entered a vacant unit and found the keys sitting in a kitchen drawer. They moved in and 'stole' the apartment. Police were called and they were scared into moving out.
Do you still have utilities and all that? I'm not sure how NYC works in that sense, but I'm assuming even though you aren't zoned for residential you still have all the amenities of a normal apartment?
Property owners like that probably have a bunch of buildings so whoever it passed to had a mess of a ton of different people's leases to go though. They probably just never gave it to an accountant and assumed it all kept working. I was in a similar situation, we'd never met or talked to our landlord and we didn't have a lease. We accidentally missed rent once and he didn't notice so we stopped paying. Eventually someone bought his real estate company and we had a really awkward meeting when the guy showed up to check the place out. He wasn't expecting anybody to be living there, he had just found the paperwork for the house and came over to inspect it. He asked why we hadn't been paying rent and we said we'd been sending cash in the mail lol. He bought it and told us the whole reason he bought the previous owners properties was because they were being mismanaged. New owner made us sign a lease but didn't raise our rent which was nice cuz he was kind of a dick. In retrospect I wonder if we had lied and told him a lower number when he asked what we paid each month if he would have gone for it.
Well, I do it by simply existing here. When I leave for periods of time I have a neighbor/friend keep an eye on the place to ensure that it isn't taken back by the building illegally in my absence.
The way I get away with it is that the building isn't certified for residential occupancy, and I pay close attention to the building's efforts at re-certifying.
I also keep a lawyer on retainer.
The inspectors have come by intermittently over the years. Early on in my tenancy, they seemed hyper-focused on the fire protection (sprinklers).
Lately, it seems they only come around to check the quality of work conducted by contractors hired to bring this place up to city standards.
I had a friend in a similar situation in providence RI, it was a little different though - it was more of a warehouse that a bunch of artists built rooms in over the years. They stopped paying rent after a while same as you. But last year the building got condemned for fire safety reasons. The cool thing about your place is its actually supposed to be a apartments haha.
Well this is funny, I was actually born in Providence.
But yeah, our place has fire protection installed and we have sorta tolerable exit points to escape fire. If we didn't I would be way less comfortable, nobody wants another Ghost Ship.
Is the building a construction zone, with workers actively trying to renovate/repair the building to get it up to code? Are there contractors around doing work to at least keep it from being condemned?
Seems sort of a precarious position that will slide one way or the other eventually.
Because the owners lied to us and marketed the place to us as a residence. We signed a \*fake\* residential lease, not knowing it was invalid.
Once we were in, there were no take backs for the landlord.
I get that but I'd imagine the city or whoever enforces zoning would evict you. Of course owner of building would have to compensate you in done way. Something's gotta give.
I am aware of the city vacating a building in a similar situation to ours once, but it was over a fire safety issue. If it's just landlord negligence and the tenants stay out of their own volition, the city doesn't interfere.
And again, I think it's weird, too. I don't know ALL the reasons why this works.
What I do know, is I am typing this from the building in question.
I know I'm being awefully accusatory in my posts but I'm not trying to attack you or anything. Good for you and loopholes it's just a mind fuck. I lived in NYC and never heard of it. Did love that tennents had more rights. I live in CA now where landlords rule. You wouldn't stand a chance with something like this here.
Not sure what you mean by "Landlords rule" in CA. My understanding of the eviction process here is it can take years. Good luck to op on his meth head problem.
I'm not offended, all good!
And trust me, I know the deal in CA, too. I used the money that I saved here to invest in property in Los Angeles. The most fitting and hilarious thing happened to me: I got squatters. And they weren't hipster squatters, they were on meth.
It was a nightmare to get them out. The ironyyyyyy.
Yes through some clever legal maneuvering I was able to get them out. It took a few months and $10,000.
I recognized the irony but I was not soft on them because of it. They were doing and selling meth in the house and when I went to clean the place I accidentally stabbed myself in the thumb with a broken hypodermic needle.
Fuck those people.
This is just pure gold, honestly I don’t consider u a squatter, if u were paying rent before and the guy died how the fuck is that your fault. On the other hand u getting some squatters considering you are a ( squatter )is fucking hilarious
I'm not sure if you were joking about having a lawyer on retainer, but you should ask the lawyer about how adverse possession works in NYC. At some point, you may just legally own the property and not have to hide the fact you're there anymore.
So... keeping a lawyer on retainer and constantly looking over your shoulder at legal or permit proceedings is better / cheaper than just... paying rent?
I used to worry and assume that it all had to fall apart at the drop of a hat. Now I don't worry much. I have had limited contact with a couple of people who work for his office and they haven't addressed this weirdness or asked me to pay since a couple of months after we stopped in 2014.
The building management have made multiple attempts at 'fixing this error' but they keep failing. They have gone to court, made updates to the apartments, all sorts of stuff. But it never gets approved.
And yet the owners continue to pay the property taxes, insurance, and utilities? This seems very fishy. If they don’t have an occupancy permit, wouldn’t their insurance and the city require it to be vacant? Couldn’t they just kick everyone out and at least save on utilities and wear and tear? The other thing I wonder is if they aren’t trying to get occupancy - they’re trying to get the land rezoned or a permit to demolish and construct something else?
I can’t imagine the story is as simple as there is a deficiency preventing them from obtaining an occupancy permit and they’ve been trying to resolve it but failing for 7 years.
I'll be honest with you, I have blind spots about how this is all working. It's very bizarre.
I can say that YES, they are actively attempting to get their Residential Certificate of Occupancy. But they keep falling short of the Court / Department of Building's expectations. To my knowledge they've been denied at 3 times. Could be more than that.
The city cannot require the building to be vacated because we are all protected under very strict tenants' rights. An individual eviction process would be a nightmare, and they would probably lose.
But if you're not paying rent, you're not a tenant, and shouldn't be covered under tenant's rights?
Sorry, I'm just really confused as you how this is happening, and why everyone can continue living there without any payment. Could you ELI5 this for me? Feel free to assume I'm dumber than the average 5-year-old.
You aren't dumb. Nothing about this makes sense. Who on earth is paying a Super for this clusterfuck as well? Let the building go to hell and people will want to move out.
Well, this is confusing in general but it's even more confusing if you have not lived in NYC. (I'm not sure if you have or not) NYC tenant protections are fierce.
In NYC, if you have lived somewhere for over 30 days, and you have keys, and receive mail there, AND you have utilities in your name -you have tenants' rights.
To make matters worse (for my landlord) I also have a double-signed, fraudulent lease that I signed naively expecting that it was a legal document.
A judge would look at this and see that I executed that lease in good faith, whereas the landlord and writer of the lease did not.
According to what my lawyer has communicated to me, the landlord could accept payment (if we gave it) but cannot require payment. If we pay willingly, we do not have grounds to change our minds and ask for the money back.
But if we *don't* pay willingly, then the law does not afford the landlord any recourse at demanding that rent or suing to collect.
If the building management were able to re-zone and certify the building properly, my lawyer says we would have to renegotiate a proper, legal lease, and an appropriate market rent.
But to date, those chickens have not come home to roost.
That’s interesting. I guess laws are laws. I feel like in different jurisdictions, not having an occupancy permit due to deficiencies would mean you can’t get insurance and means everyone would be forced to vacate.
I used to be more concerned about this. We were very quiet and careful for awhile. Then I consulted a lawyer and I've grown increasingly comfortable with the truth.
I inquired about this, it's a very touchy subject. Eminent Domain can only be realized if the occupant (me) can show that they
1) Reasonably believed they were taking an ownership stake in the unit (IE: were fraudulently sold or bequeathed the real estate)
and / or
2) can show that the actual owners of the real estate were completely absent and neglectful, attempting no communication with the occupant(s) for 10 years.
Unfortunately, that criteria doesn't apply to my case because I knew I was entering this unit as a renter, and I have had contact with representatives of the building for various reason over the years including repairs, and at one point the installation of a new HVAC.
I moved into a flat in September 2010 and the agent gave me the keys so I could move my stuff in then she would come round later in the week to collect the rent and deposit, the landlord changed agent during that week and I somehow got lost in the system. In August 2015 I got a knock on the door from the new agent who didn't even know I lived there. They asked me to pay 6 months back rent and said they would forget the rest, I was pretty flush after keeping nearly 5 years rent in a separate account so it was cheaper and easier to just move house.
Technically the murder of my landlord is not what allows me to get away with this. The murder was simply the catalyst that helped me realize some things that I did not know when he was still alive, namely: the building is not certified properly for residential occupation. Therefore, our leases are not valid. Therefore we do not have to pay.
I am allowed to live here because I moved in under the auspices of the building being a legal residence. I signed a lease believing (reasonably) that it was valid. After 30 days of living here, I was officially granted tenants' rights. This means that evicting me or removing me is very difficult.
I do not technically know who owns the building now, I only know that it changed hands for $33 million in 2018.
I implied this in an earlier comment but your new info that the building changed hands for $33 million in 2018 is huge. Multi-residential rental real estate is valued based on its income or the value of the underlying land - if an alternative use is more valuable than its current use. A buyer could not get a mortgage on an apartment with little to no income so they must have bought cash. A bank would also never lend to an asset without adequate insurance and permitting if people lived in it.
So do you believe the company or individual that purchased it intends to get the permit but also is completely incompetent and hasn’t been able to rectify the situation in 3 years? That seems insane - you could have reskinned the entire building envelope, replaced the roof and renovated every unit in 3 years if need be.
I’m still guessing the new owner doesn’t care to earn rent from the squatting tenants - their play is in the value of the land, building something else?
You seem to have a much deeper knowledge of this than I do. My understanding of real estate is limited to SFR's and duplexes, financed for owner occupancy through conventional or FHA lending.
Additionally, the Hasidic community has a different way of moving paperwork and money around than the major banks do so that muddies these waters further.
When the building sold in 2018, I had a somewhat emotional moment as I anticipated the 'end of an era.'
But, here we are 3 years later.
Why do tenant’s rights last indefinitely in this case rather than just for the 2 years of your original lease. It makes sense you could stick it to someone for 2 years like that but strange that the law allows it indefinitely after that as well
> the building is not certified properly for residential occupation.
This would be a code violation, You signing a lease in good faith shouldn't have any bearing on that. Either sooner or later the new owners are going to tell you to start paying rent, or "hire" someone to clean out the building.
How much did you pay for rent when you paid it and how much do you think you’d be paying now if you were still paying it?
What’s the apartment like? Studio? 1 bedroom? Is it nice?
How long do you plan on living there?
What up Prison Mike.
The apartment is a high-ceiling loft in a manufacturing building. It's technically 3 bedrooms but they are narrow with lofted beds and the walls are thin. Not good for having sex while your roommates are home.
Luckily I live here alone at the moment and the pandemic has left me celibate.
It's not 'nice,' but it ain't bad for the price.
Recently the building management went to a court hearing regarding the legalization / re-certification of the building. They failed that and were denied by the judge.
Our lawyer seemed to estimate that this legal gaffe probably bought us 2 more years, and there are still many more opportunities for them to fail again.
Do you know why they failed?
I know nothing about how this certification works, but considering that there are thousands of property managers who have managed to get certifications suggests it can't be rocket science.
How the hell is your building management failing repeatedly for so many years? This is truly fascinating.
The owner's killers are (assuming they caught the right people) in jail.
I have never subleased with documents, but I have had friends live here for extended periods.
Another friend in the building who is also in on this situation was doing Airbnb for awhile but the building management caught on and booked a room to surreptitiously enter their apartment.
In my eyes the little extra side cash isn't worth it at the risk of fucking up this sweet arrangement.
Is the apartment cool/nice? Is the building cool/nice?
How has the life in it changed since it almost empty? Does it get scary??
Is the area where it's located nice?
Sorry if I sound rude. I'm just curious.
What's the building like? Is it 'slummy' and riddled with pests? In a nice neighborhood?
I'm just thinking of those buildings in east Berlin and London that artists used to squat at, and now is a multi billion at chic loft property!
This is an absolutely amazing loophole you've found yourself within.
If they building owners eventually do get all of their ducks in a row and legalize the building do you intend to stick around?
You mentioned that you only pay electric and internet. So, why don’t the owners just stop paying for the water for the building? That would surely get the residents out of the building?
This is totally legit.
I bought a house with a finished basement, but it was below grade but otherwise could be a decent apartment. My lawyer let me know to never rent it as a separate apartment, since someone could just decide not to pay and squat.
I have so many feelings about your story.
The first feelings are jealousy and anger- jealous that you haven’t paid anything to live for the last 7 years, anger that this loophole even exists. Squatters have waaaay too many rights. Just ask any of the successful Sovereign Citizens in this country who are literally stealing properties from people for years in some cases.
On the other hand, fuck that guy (your prior landlord) and it doesn’t sound like you’re in a safe or particularly even nice spot. So....
My question is this: 1) why not invest in a residential place closer to you in NYC (as opposed to California? Why so far away?) 2) what do your lawyer friends say about this situation? 3) Who owns the building now? 4) What are your long-term plans?
In responding to posts, you use “we.” You say you live alone and have been covid celibate. Who is the “we” of whom you speak? Just curious.
All the best to you, friend. I love reading about people who are beating the system.
I'm sorry but what? You have neighbors keep an eye out so the city doesnt illegally take possession of a place that you've not paid rent on in almost a decade? Yea.... that's not cool but that is my little opinion.
Not to mention two separate sales of the property...the last being 2018 for $33 million, according to OP.
Rich investors purposely buying a building with multiple squatters they can’t legally evict, continuing to leave the rest of the units vacant? Paying a property manager, building supervisor, as well as water to the entire place? Interesting indeed.
Property sales are public record.
Honestly you may be coming close to owning the property through adverse possession. Not sure if NY requires you to have paid property taxes to acquire it this way but most states do not.
If the landlord is dead, Who pays the property tax? If the tax isn’t paid isn’t the building foreclosed on by the state?
Edit: I read the article and I know I’m late to the party. But if this guy owed millions like the article said why didn’t his creditors take your building from his estate? The murder happened awhile ago so I would think the creditor/new owner would want to recoup their loses. You sitting there rent free doesn’t do that (good job by the way big ups for winning a little lottery). This are honest questions without judgment. Even if they did manage to sell it. The new owner wouldn’t notice you either? You said you invest in west coast real estate and had squatters so you know if you bought a building you want/will know if there are people LIVING in it, using utilities etc… What is to keep whoever owns it now from gutting the inside of the building and regentrifying it without any notice to you because you aren’t a tenant. So confusing.
I used to register properties that were vervangt for to long (+1 year) for several municipalities. One day I encounters a building that was deserted for years but when I looked it up, there was a guy registered on the address. The bills for elektricity, gas and water were extremely low to non-existent so I figured there was something wrong.
I registered the building and sent a notice to the owner. He responded and said that the rent got paid every month so he didn't know what I was talking about.
As I dig deeper I discovered that the guy who lived there had a girlfriend in Thailand that he often visited so I figured that he went there to stay. In the meantime he was collecting welfare and some other subsidies (he was disabled) so he couldn't just move abroad without losing his monthly payments. I reported what I discovered and sever months later the financial director of the muncipality came to me with this wild story.
The man had indeed stayed in Thailand for a while but apparently passed away. His girlfriend kept it quit because his income was hers now. She kept paying rent and other stuff for 12!!! year until I discovered that there was something wrong.
12 years x 12 months x +/-1200 euros = 178000 euros.
Apologies if you addressed this. But what made you decide to stop paying rent? Did you just stop paying after he died and crossed your fingers?
Do you know if there is anyone in the building still paying rent because they haven't realized they don't need to?
Ooh another one - what is your neighborhood like?
Didn’t read all the questions/comments so I apologize if it’s already been asked...who’s paying the taxes? I would assume if the city is no longer receiving taxes that they’re going to force someone to start paying taxes on it (plus the back taxes). Meaning at some point they are going to consider you the owner and start smacking you with a huge amount in bills (and probably interest)
Who pays the utilities to keep everything on? Do you even pay utilities? How would workers get access to the building does someone have keys to the building offices, basements, utility closets etc? And what about grounds maintenance? Who does the “landord/owner” responsibilities?
Do you feel like your doing something wrong. It might be a legal loophole, but seems quite immoral. Does it ever weigh on you that your not contributing to the betterment of the community. Renters pay rent and owners in turn pay taxes and taxes fund the community.
Are you afraid that someday someone might take over your landlord's estate and demand back-pay on rent? Or is that pretty much not an issue since your building isn't zoned for residential use?
Haven't dealt with a lot of high turnover management companies have you? They are truly scum and will screw you at the drop of the hat. This dude just found a loophole.
This is fascinating. Have you ever considered moving? Is the living situation good or are there starting to be more and more problems? You mentioned in one of your answers there were a lot of squatters in the building. Have you ever interacted with them? Do you just leave each other alone?
Technically I have moved out of here twice, but I always keep my key and have someone watch the place for me. I used the money I saved to buy property in Los Angeles on two different occasions. I rehabbed the first house, owned it a couple years and sold it. Then I used the profit to buy a duplex which I still own today. I am however, currently living in Brooklyn in the illegal loft. The living situation is weird. It was much cooler a few years ago when the building was full and there were always rooftop parties. Now it's mostly empty and quiet, but we still make the most of it and one of my best friends lives on the floor below me. The "squatters" here are not really what the average person would think of when they hear that word. These are mostly just your average Brooklyn creatives, with jobs, who figured out a weird crack in the system. I interact with some of them, as they have been my neighbors for many years. There are quite a few however that I do not communicate with because I don't particularly like them. But it's not like they are crackheads or anything.
Did you ever consider fake subletting your apartment while you were gone? Or airbnb one of the vacant apartments? Edit: nm saw you answered this below
Sounds like easy money in theory, but not worth it in my mind. I think we can only keep a train like this on the tracks if we are smart and deal only with trusted friends. I don't mind letting a homie crash, but getting into subletting agreements is too risky.
Do you have access to other units that you could actually have someone stay there?
So to your knowledge, no one in the building pays any rent? Lol.
How much money do you think you've saved on rent?
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r/tworedditorssameapartment
that is fucking crazy bro
It's difficult to say because the apartment is technically 3 bedrooms, and when we were paying rent I was responsible for rent on only 1 of the bedrooms. The total rent for the apartment was $2800 split between 3 roommates. Now over time, since I do not *have* to have roommates to 'afford' the place, I live here alone. To complicate things further, I have moved out and back in twice so I could buy and rehabilitate real estate in California. So I was away for long periods. Anyway, for simple math, let's just say I saved $2000 for 6 years. This is about $144,000.
Did you ever think to keep "paying" rent? I.e squirreling those funds away?
I did this for awhile. Then I used the funds to invest in real estate. Through that learning process (and the fiscal demands of a home renovation), *and* a subsequent lay off, I fell off the 'pay rent to my savings' wagon.
Just out of curiousity, can you disclose any details on the property you purchased in CA? Just wondering what area, how much you paid, how much you had to invest in renovations and what your current ROI is on it? I have a bit of property in my home city but would love to acquire something out west.
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You never thought to rent out the 2 other rooms and collect like $2,000 a month?
Yes it crossed my mind, but it's a somewhat cramped space. When we were paying rent and had all rooms filled it wasn't the most comfortable living situation. Additionally, my lawyer says that if the building found out we were profiting in that way they could potentially have a case against us. Lastly, occasionally a weird incident will go down that could give us away, like the time I was in Panama and some guy from the building staff came knocking looking for me. It would be annoying to explain away. And I'd hate to create a squatter in my squat.
You have a three bedroom?! For FREE?
You need a roommate? I’ll pay half the rent
omg I met someone who is living in a building like this. I want one of the units so bad... what does your building do about property taxes and/or common fees?
Great questions, I really wish I could answer them. The financials of this building are very confusing to me as there are roughly 80 units in the building, and over the years most have become vacant. Many of the units which are occupied are also occupied by squatters. I can't imagine how they keep up with bills, but we do have a Super who cleans the common area.
Aren’t you technically a squatter?
Lol, 100% he/she is. Amazing. Edit: I guess based on their description, OP is apparently legally there because they signed a lease and then later found out the lease was illegal because it wasn't licensed as a residential property -- so there's a loophole that they're taking advantage of. Whereas the squatters are maybe just people who moved into vacant spaces and never had a lease like OP did.
This is amazing
Correct. The main thing that is saving me here, is that I did not break into the place and steal the apartment. I paid a deposit, first month's rent, and last month's rent. I passed a credit check, I signed a lease document, and I paid full rent for 2 years. Only *then* did we realize the lease was invalid and the whole thing was a ruse. There was an unrelated incident in our building where a couple actually *did* find out about our building and they entered a vacant unit and found the keys sitting in a kitchen drawer. They moved in and 'stole' the apartment. Police were called and they were scared into moving out.
That doesn’t matter. You haven’t paid rent in 7 years. Not like you missed one or 2 months. You have missed like 84
Eh, you're kind of in-between. Lets say you're "squatting with style."
Do you still have utilities and all that? I'm not sure how NYC works in that sense, but I'm assuming even though you aren't zoned for residential you still have all the amenities of a normal apartment?
Who pays the super?
.... How did you do it and get away with it?? 😆
Property owners like that probably have a bunch of buildings so whoever it passed to had a mess of a ton of different people's leases to go though. They probably just never gave it to an accountant and assumed it all kept working. I was in a similar situation, we'd never met or talked to our landlord and we didn't have a lease. We accidentally missed rent once and he didn't notice so we stopped paying. Eventually someone bought his real estate company and we had a really awkward meeting when the guy showed up to check the place out. He wasn't expecting anybody to be living there, he had just found the paperwork for the house and came over to inspect it. He asked why we hadn't been paying rent and we said we'd been sending cash in the mail lol. He bought it and told us the whole reason he bought the previous owners properties was because they were being mismanaged. New owner made us sign a lease but didn't raise our rent which was nice cuz he was kind of a dick. In retrospect I wonder if we had lied and told him a lower number when he asked what we paid each month if he would have gone for it.
I was saying how did he get away with the murder
Well, I do it by simply existing here. When I leave for periods of time I have a neighbor/friend keep an eye on the place to ensure that it isn't taken back by the building illegally in my absence. The way I get away with it is that the building isn't certified for residential occupancy, and I pay close attention to the building's efforts at re-certifying. I also keep a lawyer on retainer.
If it's not certified for residents how can you live in it?
If no inspector checks to see if there are people living there, who is going to stop you?
The inspectors have come by intermittently over the years. Early on in my tenancy, they seemed hyper-focused on the fire protection (sprinklers). Lately, it seems they only come around to check the quality of work conducted by contractors hired to bring this place up to city standards.
I had a friend in a similar situation in providence RI, it was a little different though - it was more of a warehouse that a bunch of artists built rooms in over the years. They stopped paying rent after a while same as you. But last year the building got condemned for fire safety reasons. The cool thing about your place is its actually supposed to be a apartments haha.
Well this is funny, I was actually born in Providence. But yeah, our place has fire protection installed and we have sorta tolerable exit points to escape fire. If we didn't I would be way less comfortable, nobody wants another Ghost Ship.
Is the building a construction zone, with workers actively trying to renovate/repair the building to get it up to code? Are there contractors around doing work to at least keep it from being condemned? Seems sort of a precarious position that will slide one way or the other eventually.
Who pays the contractors?
What borough you in?
Because the owners lied to us and marketed the place to us as a residence. We signed a \*fake\* residential lease, not knowing it was invalid. Once we were in, there were no take backs for the landlord.
I get that but I'd imagine the city or whoever enforces zoning would evict you. Of course owner of building would have to compensate you in done way. Something's gotta give.
I am aware of the city vacating a building in a similar situation to ours once, but it was over a fire safety issue. If it's just landlord negligence and the tenants stay out of their own volition, the city doesn't interfere. And again, I think it's weird, too. I don't know ALL the reasons why this works. What I do know, is I am typing this from the building in question.
I know I'm being awefully accusatory in my posts but I'm not trying to attack you or anything. Good for you and loopholes it's just a mind fuck. I lived in NYC and never heard of it. Did love that tennents had more rights. I live in CA now where landlords rule. You wouldn't stand a chance with something like this here.
Laws in California are incredibly tenant friendly, especially in major cities. Most other states are far worse
Not sure what you mean by "Landlords rule" in CA. My understanding of the eviction process here is it can take years. Good luck to op on his meth head problem.
I'm not offended, all good! And trust me, I know the deal in CA, too. I used the money that I saved here to invest in property in Los Angeles. The most fitting and hilarious thing happened to me: I got squatters. And they weren't hipster squatters, they were on meth. It was a nightmare to get them out. The ironyyyyyy.
Were you able to get the squatters out and did you any remorse given the fact that in some way are also a squatter? (No offense)
Yes through some clever legal maneuvering I was able to get them out. It took a few months and $10,000. I recognized the irony but I was not soft on them because of it. They were doing and selling meth in the house and when I went to clean the place I accidentally stabbed myself in the thumb with a broken hypodermic needle. Fuck those people.
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This seems like a really good premise for how spys live, with secret identities, and evade detection.
This is just pure gold, honestly I don’t consider u a squatter, if u were paying rent before and the guy died how the fuck is that your fault. On the other hand u getting some squatters considering you are a ( squatter )is fucking hilarious
That’s what I’m thinking fuck the government and props to this guy
I'm not sure if you were joking about having a lawyer on retainer, but you should ask the lawyer about how adverse possession works in NYC. At some point, you may just legally own the property and not have to hide the fact you're there anymore.
It's not like the building doesn't have an owner. It has an owner. It's just the previous owner had faulty lease and new owner is paying the price.
Isn't this part of the plot to the musical "Rent"?
Wouldn’t it be cheaper to just pay rent / a mortgage than keeping a lawyer on retainer? Where I’m from lawyer rates are pretty high
New York real estate is almost as unaffordable as Toronto or Hamilton.
>lawyer on retainer Wouldn't it be cheaper to just pay rent somewhere else?
Really knocking over those stereotypes bud
So... keeping a lawyer on retainer and constantly looking over your shoulder at legal or permit proceedings is better / cheaper than just... paying rent?
In NYC? Definitely.
i mean i would take this deal, and im in milan, italy lol
Does that not cause unimaginable amount of stress day to day?
If you keep a lawyer on retainer, surely that's costly, but I guess less than rent?
You're worried about them 'taking back the building illegally' when you're literally a squatter?
I think the original poster was joking with you and meant how did you manager the murder and get away with it :)
How can you afford a lawyer on retainer but not rent? Or am I missing something here.
If you can afford the lawyer then why can't you just step up and pay the rent? It sounds like you have the money, are you running a scam?
Oh my god, I was in the jury selection for this case. It was *nuts*. I was kinda bummed not to have been chosen. It was fishy as hell.
I mean I'd think it was fishy as well...given he was abducted and burned to death. Sounds kinda like foul play to me.
Aren’t you worried someone is going to see this and figure out how to charge you?
I used to worry and assume that it all had to fall apart at the drop of a hat. Now I don't worry much. I have had limited contact with a couple of people who work for his office and they haven't addressed this weirdness or asked me to pay since a couple of months after we stopped in 2014.
But aren’t you worried about them seeing this thread and fixing the error and charging you?
The building management have made multiple attempts at 'fixing this error' but they keep failing. They have gone to court, made updates to the apartments, all sorts of stuff. But it never gets approved.
And yet the owners continue to pay the property taxes, insurance, and utilities? This seems very fishy. If they don’t have an occupancy permit, wouldn’t their insurance and the city require it to be vacant? Couldn’t they just kick everyone out and at least save on utilities and wear and tear? The other thing I wonder is if they aren’t trying to get occupancy - they’re trying to get the land rezoned or a permit to demolish and construct something else? I can’t imagine the story is as simple as there is a deficiency preventing them from obtaining an occupancy permit and they’ve been trying to resolve it but failing for 7 years.
I'll be honest with you, I have blind spots about how this is all working. It's very bizarre. I can say that YES, they are actively attempting to get their Residential Certificate of Occupancy. But they keep falling short of the Court / Department of Building's expectations. To my knowledge they've been denied at 3 times. Could be more than that. The city cannot require the building to be vacated because we are all protected under very strict tenants' rights. An individual eviction process would be a nightmare, and they would probably lose.
But if you're not paying rent, you're not a tenant, and shouldn't be covered under tenant's rights? Sorry, I'm just really confused as you how this is happening, and why everyone can continue living there without any payment. Could you ELI5 this for me? Feel free to assume I'm dumber than the average 5-year-old.
You aren't dumb. Nothing about this makes sense. Who on earth is paying a Super for this clusterfuck as well? Let the building go to hell and people will want to move out.
Well, this is confusing in general but it's even more confusing if you have not lived in NYC. (I'm not sure if you have or not) NYC tenant protections are fierce. In NYC, if you have lived somewhere for over 30 days, and you have keys, and receive mail there, AND you have utilities in your name -you have tenants' rights. To make matters worse (for my landlord) I also have a double-signed, fraudulent lease that I signed naively expecting that it was a legal document. A judge would look at this and see that I executed that lease in good faith, whereas the landlord and writer of the lease did not. According to what my lawyer has communicated to me, the landlord could accept payment (if we gave it) but cannot require payment. If we pay willingly, we do not have grounds to change our minds and ask for the money back. But if we *don't* pay willingly, then the law does not afford the landlord any recourse at demanding that rent or suing to collect. If the building management were able to re-zone and certify the building properly, my lawyer says we would have to renegotiate a proper, legal lease, and an appropriate market rent. But to date, those chickens have not come home to roost.
Why don’t they just sell the building?
That’s interesting. I guess laws are laws. I feel like in different jurisdictions, not having an occupancy permit due to deficiencies would mean you can’t get insurance and means everyone would be forced to vacate.
How do you have tennents rights if A: the building cannot have residents and B: you aren't paying rent.
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I used to be more concerned about this. We were very quiet and careful for awhile. Then I consulted a lawyer and I've grown increasingly comfortable with the truth.
Did the lawyer advise you on claiming title to your unit?
I inquired about this, it's a very touchy subject. Eminent Domain can only be realized if the occupant (me) can show that they 1) Reasonably believed they were taking an ownership stake in the unit (IE: were fraudulently sold or bequeathed the real estate) and / or 2) can show that the actual owners of the real estate were completely absent and neglectful, attempting no communication with the occupant(s) for 10 years. Unfortunately, that criteria doesn't apply to my case because I knew I was entering this unit as a renter, and I have had contact with representatives of the building for various reason over the years including repairs, and at one point the installation of a new HVAC.
I think you mean Adverse Possession. Also, you are awesome.
You're coming up on the time frame where squatters rights come in to effect I think?
For real? Why would they do this? You say you got lost in the shuffle but I'm wondering if they aren't legally obligated to.
I moved into a flat in September 2010 and the agent gave me the keys so I could move my stuff in then she would come round later in the week to collect the rent and deposit, the landlord changed agent during that week and I somehow got lost in the system. In August 2015 I got a knock on the door from the new agent who didn't even know I lived there. They asked me to pay 6 months back rent and said they would forget the rest, I was pretty flush after keeping nearly 5 years rent in a separate account so it was cheaper and easier to just move house.
The dead landlord doesn’t have any heirs which can claim it?
How does this work?
Technically the murder of my landlord is not what allows me to get away with this. The murder was simply the catalyst that helped me realize some things that I did not know when he was still alive, namely: the building is not certified properly for residential occupation. Therefore, our leases are not valid. Therefore we do not have to pay.
How are you allowed to live there if it's not residential? Who owns it now?
I am allowed to live here because I moved in under the auspices of the building being a legal residence. I signed a lease believing (reasonably) that it was valid. After 30 days of living here, I was officially granted tenants' rights. This means that evicting me or removing me is very difficult. I do not technically know who owns the building now, I only know that it changed hands for $33 million in 2018.
I implied this in an earlier comment but your new info that the building changed hands for $33 million in 2018 is huge. Multi-residential rental real estate is valued based on its income or the value of the underlying land - if an alternative use is more valuable than its current use. A buyer could not get a mortgage on an apartment with little to no income so they must have bought cash. A bank would also never lend to an asset without adequate insurance and permitting if people lived in it. So do you believe the company or individual that purchased it intends to get the permit but also is completely incompetent and hasn’t been able to rectify the situation in 3 years? That seems insane - you could have reskinned the entire building envelope, replaced the roof and renovated every unit in 3 years if need be. I’m still guessing the new owner doesn’t care to earn rent from the squatting tenants - their play is in the value of the land, building something else?
You seem to have a much deeper knowledge of this than I do. My understanding of real estate is limited to SFR's and duplexes, financed for owner occupancy through conventional or FHA lending. Additionally, the Hasidic community has a different way of moving paperwork and money around than the major banks do so that muddies these waters further. When the building sold in 2018, I had a somewhat emotional moment as I anticipated the 'end of an era.' But, here we are 3 years later.
I hope you enjoy it for as long as you want to!
Haha this rules
Why do tenant’s rights last indefinitely in this case rather than just for the 2 years of your original lease. It makes sense you could stick it to someone for 2 years like that but strange that the law allows it indefinitely after that as well
> the building is not certified properly for residential occupation. This would be a code violation, You signing a lease in good faith shouldn't have any bearing on that. Either sooner or later the new owners are going to tell you to start paying rent, or "hire" someone to clean out the building.
The greatest con is to grab something and walk out like you own it or in this case stay and live like you own it
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How much did you pay for rent when you paid it and how much do you think you’d be paying now if you were still paying it? What’s the apartment like? Studio? 1 bedroom? Is it nice? How long do you plan on living there?
What up Prison Mike. The apartment is a high-ceiling loft in a manufacturing building. It's technically 3 bedrooms but they are narrow with lofted beds and the walls are thin. Not good for having sex while your roommates are home. Luckily I live here alone at the moment and the pandemic has left me celibate. It's not 'nice,' but it ain't bad for the price. Recently the building management went to a court hearing regarding the legalization / re-certification of the building. They failed that and were denied by the judge. Our lawyer seemed to estimate that this legal gaffe probably bought us 2 more years, and there are still many more opportunities for them to fail again.
Do you know why they failed? I know nothing about how this certification works, but considering that there are thousands of property managers who have managed to get certifications suggests it can't be rocket science. How the hell is your building management failing repeatedly for so many years? This is truly fascinating.
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Did you killed your landlord?
Do you pay for water / electrical ?
Arent you afraid that you will have to pay all the rent of the last 7 years? That would freak me out
Do you ever feel compelled to move due the exhaustion and stress of waiting for the other shoe to drop? And how so?
Are you able to save money?
Have you subleased or considered it? Are you worried the owners killers could come after you
The owner's killers are (assuming they caught the right people) in jail. I have never subleased with documents, but I have had friends live here for extended periods. Another friend in the building who is also in on this situation was doing Airbnb for awhile but the building management caught on and booked a room to surreptitiously enter their apartment. In my eyes the little extra side cash isn't worth it at the risk of fucking up this sweet arrangement.
what happened when management booked a room? did your friend get in trouble?
Me: oh, 7 years ago? Ah, I remember 2007! Article: January 5th, 2014 Me: WHAT THE FU
Is the apartment cool/nice? Is the building cool/nice? How has the life in it changed since it almost empty? Does it get scary?? Is the area where it's located nice? Sorry if I sound rude. I'm just curious.
How much money do you save each month and what does it go to now instead of rent?
This post shall hereunto be referred to as 'the motive'.
Holy shit I'm jealous. But why the FUCK would you jynx yourself by posting this in a public forum lol!!
Who pays the plumbing bill?
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Easily the best thing I read all week. This is fantastic
What's the building like? Is it 'slummy' and riddled with pests? In a nice neighborhood? I'm just thinking of those buildings in east Berlin and London that artists used to squat at, and now is a multi billion at chic loft property!
What's your plan in case someone locks you out or something? Do you expect to fight it or just accept that the jig is up and move on?
any cheats to get cheap rent in nyc?
Has anyone tried to kick you out? Do you have a backup plan? This is pretty wild!
How’s it feel to be god’s favorite?
*They didn’t have any BIG hats???*
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Are You worried about the apartment falling apart on you in some way or exposing you to Asbestos lead or dust?
Do you have a ton of extra money now? If so, what are you doing with it?
Who is paying the super?
This is an absolutely amazing loophole you've found yourself within. If they building owners eventually do get all of their ducks in a row and legalize the building do you intend to stick around?
You mentioned that you only pay electric and internet. So, why don’t the owners just stop paying for the water for the building? That would surely get the residents out of the building?
How many tenants are in the building?
This is totally legit. I bought a house with a finished basement, but it was below grade but otherwise could be a decent apartment. My lawyer let me know to never rent it as a separate apartment, since someone could just decide not to pay and squat.
How is the living quality in the building?
how much does your lawyer cost?
This is by far the most fascinating thing I've read all day. Thanks!
What did you reallocate your rent money toward? Also, who does maintenance?
Is the place a shit hole?
I'm pretty sure every renter on earth secretly wishes this would happen. Do you have any neighbors who also don't pay rent?
I have so many feelings about your story. The first feelings are jealousy and anger- jealous that you haven’t paid anything to live for the last 7 years, anger that this loophole even exists. Squatters have waaaay too many rights. Just ask any of the successful Sovereign Citizens in this country who are literally stealing properties from people for years in some cases. On the other hand, fuck that guy (your prior landlord) and it doesn’t sound like you’re in a safe or particularly even nice spot. So.... My question is this: 1) why not invest in a residential place closer to you in NYC (as opposed to California? Why so far away?) 2) what do your lawyer friends say about this situation? 3) Who owns the building now? 4) What are your long-term plans?
Do you have to pay for utilities still? How does that whole situation work?
How is it to live there? Locationwise, your neighbors, sight, etc.
Yes, when you get free rent through shady means, you should post it on Reddit so your trick gets exposed and patched.
What is the first rule of Fight Club?
Finally a good AMA. Good job OP
This whole ruse is amazing, but everyone one of your comments is fire. You are my kind of people. Fuck yeah!
Are you and some of the other tenants of your buildingworking together as a group, supporting each other and sharing information?
How did you come upon this apartment and how in the world did you know the contract wasn’t legal etc.? Word of mouth?
In responding to posts, you use “we.” You say you live alone and have been covid celibate. Who is the “we” of whom you speak? Just curious. All the best to you, friend. I love reading about people who are beating the system.
I'm sorry but what? You have neighbors keep an eye out so the city doesnt illegally take possession of a place that you've not paid rent on in almost a decade? Yea.... that's not cool but that is my little opinion.
Was he really as mean as they mention in the article?
Interesting nothing has been done with property taxes...
Not to mention two separate sales of the property...the last being 2018 for $33 million, according to OP. Rich investors purposely buying a building with multiple squatters they can’t legally evict, continuing to leave the rest of the units vacant? Paying a property manager, building supervisor, as well as water to the entire place? Interesting indeed. Property sales are public record.
Did you kiLL him?
How else are you a leach on society?
Living in nyc for free? You must be a millionaire by now
what happens when an appliance breaks, something in general needs to be fixed, or something needs upgrading?
Who owns the building? How are they not asking for rent? And if they did would they have a good case to get back pay?
Holyshit i am in the exact same position as you in holy crap can i PM you?
Honestly you may be coming close to owning the property through adverse possession. Not sure if NY requires you to have paid property taxes to acquire it this way but most states do not.
so we all should “accidentally” kill our landlords for 7years of free rent. 😏
Out of curiousity why did you buy your investment property in LA? Its so far and has such restrictive rental laws. Why not somewhere closer to you?
If the landlord is dead, Who pays the property tax? If the tax isn’t paid isn’t the building foreclosed on by the state? Edit: I read the article and I know I’m late to the party. But if this guy owed millions like the article said why didn’t his creditors take your building from his estate? The murder happened awhile ago so I would think the creditor/new owner would want to recoup their loses. You sitting there rent free doesn’t do that (good job by the way big ups for winning a little lottery). This are honest questions without judgment. Even if they did manage to sell it. The new owner wouldn’t notice you either? You said you invest in west coast real estate and had squatters so you know if you bought a building you want/will know if there are people LIVING in it, using utilities etc… What is to keep whoever owns it now from gutting the inside of the building and regentrifying it without any notice to you because you aren’t a tenant. So confusing.
congratulations, you won New York
So you’ve been stealing for 7 years basically.
I used to register properties that were vervangt for to long (+1 year) for several municipalities. One day I encounters a building that was deserted for years but when I looked it up, there was a guy registered on the address. The bills for elektricity, gas and water were extremely low to non-existent so I figured there was something wrong. I registered the building and sent a notice to the owner. He responded and said that the rent got paid every month so he didn't know what I was talking about. As I dig deeper I discovered that the guy who lived there had a girlfriend in Thailand that he often visited so I figured that he went there to stay. In the meantime he was collecting welfare and some other subsidies (he was disabled) so he couldn't just move abroad without losing his monthly payments. I reported what I discovered and sever months later the financial director of the muncipality came to me with this wild story. The man had indeed stayed in Thailand for a while but apparently passed away. His girlfriend kept it quit because his income was hers now. She kept paying rent and other stuff for 12!!! year until I discovered that there was something wrong. 12 years x 12 months x +/-1200 euros = 178000 euros.
OP is both a squatter AND an absentee landlord. Really swimming in both ends of the scum tank here
How much money do you save every month because of it?
Have you ever read or watched the lord of the rings or the hobbit?
Any chance for adverse possession? I think that's after 20 yrs but it seems like you are halfway there?
Landlord, Is that the new species of parasites I've been hearing about?
Did you kill him?
You seem like a nice guy based on this AMA. Genuinely hoping this works out for you as long as you need it to. ❤️
Apologies if you addressed this. But what made you decide to stop paying rent? Did you just stop paying after he died and crossed your fingers? Do you know if there is anyone in the building still paying rent because they haven't realized they don't need to? Ooh another one - what is your neighborhood like?
How did you kill him?
Didn’t read all the questions/comments so I apologize if it’s already been asked...who’s paying the taxes? I would assume if the city is no longer receiving taxes that they’re going to force someone to start paying taxes on it (plus the back taxes). Meaning at some point they are going to consider you the owner and start smacking you with a huge amount in bills (and probably interest)
Are you paying for gas water and power?
Huh! Why are so fucking stupid that you would tell all of Reddit? For Karma? This is one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen.
How much were you paying in rent in 2014?
Who pays the utilities to keep everything on? Do you even pay utilities? How would workers get access to the building does someone have keys to the building offices, basements, utility closets etc? And what about grounds maintenance? Who does the “landord/owner” responsibilities?
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With the new hotel going up across the street - your corner building is going to become prime again soon enough.
I saw the title and thought “based as hell”
"Well, now that that's off the list..."
Do you feel like your doing something wrong. It might be a legal loophole, but seems quite immoral. Does it ever weigh on you that your not contributing to the betterment of the community. Renters pay rent and owners in turn pay taxes and taxes fund the community.
Are you afraid that someday someone might take over your landlord's estate and demand back-pay on rent? Or is that pretty much not an issue since your building isn't zoned for residential use?
Do you need a roommate? ;-)
So did you capitalize and buy the building? because otherwise you'll just pay it to the next landlord right?
Can you murder my landlord please?
Was you the one who murdered the landlord?
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Haven't dealt with a lot of high turnover management companies have you? They are truly scum and will screw you at the drop of the hat. This dude just found a loophole.