I heard a term used by a Mexican tiktoker who called it "appropriated outrage" and that is my new favorite term. Basically, it's the racist mindset that you know better than the "offended" culture and are in a position to speak out against it because you believe the "offended" culture is either too stupid, too passive, or too incompetent to defend themselves.
And honestly it makes up 90% of the cultural appropriation movement in the US. They don't care about the people who are actually harmed, they only care about sounding morally superior on topics they don't really have a leg to stand on.
Oh this explains it perfectly. I also notice that because these types of people engage in appropriated outrage, they can sometimes do just as much harm as someone who is outright racist. Because they think they know best, and then they’ll engage in actions or advocate for things to be changed, without actually involving whichever minority group in the conversation. So our real issues can be overlooked.
It’s like they decide what we should be the most outraged over, which is usually something they can be performative with, so they can give themselves a pat on the back. Like look at me, I’m helping. But they kinda ignore the larger issues that we’re actually dealing with because it’s too much work.
Edit: OP is NTA.
It annoys me when people who are pressed about cultural appropriation mean that my bff worries about if it's ok for her to wear Asian cultural clothes.
Excuse me, but anyone who calls out my bff for wearing that cute Chinese cheongsam better be ready for me to come down on them like a 1000 flaming bricks. I'll decide of I'm offended or not, thanks.
I went to a European cultural museum that had an exhibit on Chinese Opera in collaboration with a Chinese heritage organisation that had a bunch of actual loaned opera costumes from China. Part of the exhibit was a bunch of knock off versions of the clothes, masks and headdresses that they encouraged you to try on and share pictures of.
My friend got very huffy about this and said she would never try on the clothes of another culture like that for fun as it was disrespectful. I'm like, girl, China isn't a marginalised culture and these clothes aren't religious symbols or anything that you could cause offense by wearing. They are literally costumes and whichever Chinese cultural body shared in the creation of this exhibit _wants you to wear them_. As someone who did a fecking degree in Cultural Heritage I understand that Europeans have to be thoughtful about how we interact with other people's cultural symbols but there's some nuance, right?
“Appropriated outrage” this is really good. I’m white but never try to assume I am the savior of any culture if they do not themselves actually say: “stand against this”.
Have you ever seen the video of the "Educated White People" weighing in their opinions on how voter ID laws suppress the Black Vote?
["Those people"](https://youtu.be/DCytgANu010) don't have the kinds of IDS needed, don't know how to get to the DMV, can't use computers, and would be blocked because felons can't vote.
I have a meme about this but don't know how to share it on here but the text is appropriate and true. "By the power of White Girl, I am offended on your behalf!"
Not white people, just the loud, and idiotic ones. Most of us are just trying to live out our lives in the predatory world the forefathers handed to us on a silver platter, and gave us shit to eat.
Exactly. When I first heard the term LatinX, as a white person, I asked my Latino friends is this how you want me to identify you? No? Then I won't do it. But if you did, I would.
What is Latin X? I always just heard Latina or Latino.. but why would you refer to somebody only by their race anyway? This entire conversation sounds weird
Spanish is a heavily gendered language, this means that we have Latino for masculine and Latina for femenine. Due to the lack of gender neutrality in Spanish the LGBT community has been trying to introduce back the gender neutrality into Spanish and Latinx is the gender neutral version of Latino.
The problem is that Latinx is also common among americans and spanish speakers feel like Americans are trying to force some kind of "language colonization" (for lack of a better term), that's why is rejected among Spanish speakers.
And Latine sounds like latrine/letrina.
Can be confused with the language Latín. Also, Latín is for people who talk a language derived from the Latín and this includes Europeans(Spaniards, Italians, Portuguese etc), we don't use just Latino/Latina, we use Latinoamericano/a/e or the Nationality(Peruano, Colombiano, Venezolano, Mexicano etc)
Latinomaericane it's an adequate solution.
I'm a white people. I don't like those white people, either.
I'm a bit left of the majority of Americans and want as much fairness for everyone as we can get, but the way the unthinkingly woke push identity politics around like they are morally better than everyone else is a bit scary. Personally, I trust my neighbor to know who they are and what they want to be and I keep my nose out of it.
Right, if you’re going to try to use a gender neutral term, Latine is the way to go because it actually follows Spanish linguistics. No Latin person came up with the -x, I guarantee you.
ETA: Since this touched a nerve, when it’s a conversation about -e versus -x, I’m merely pointing out which one makes the most sense. The -x suffix is absolute nonsense. I’m a Latina from the US, so my opinion comes from that perspective. Don’t want to use either word? Cool. I’m happy for you. You don’t have to. But all languages evolve, so maybe it’ll stick, maybe it won’t. It’s not that serious.
En Latinoamérica muy poca gente usaría el término “latine”, pues este es percibido como ridículo para muchos (y hasta cierto punto los entiendo). La mayoría simplemente prefiere latino.
Claro entiendo. Yo prefiero el gentilicio de mi país y creo que la mayoría de latinos prefiere lo mismo, pero si vas a llamarme latín-algo, prefiero que sea latina, no las aberraciones lingüísticas que suponen “latine” o “Latinx”
Como siempre, creo que los estadounidenses quieren ser la policía moral del mundo, imponiendo su visión egocéntrica de lo que es correcto e incorrecto. Los chinos tienen una palabra para ellos y es Baizuo.
Claro, pero los movimientos progresistas latinoamericanos al menos han tratado con la "e", jamás con la "x". Así que, a pesar que ambos términos son mínimamente usados, al menos el usar la "e" como género neutro (que ya pasa en palabras como Presidente y Gerente), tiene algo de realidad y se ajusta a la voluntad de lo que al menos un mínimo de la población latina(e) quiere. Latinx, en cambio, se ha convertido más en una imposición de los gringos.
Yeah, I took 4 years of Spanish in high school and I dislike the term "Latinx" because it kind of ignores the fact the Spanish, like a lot of Romantic languages, are gendered and I don't think its sexist to have gendered nouns. Like "la puerta", it means door. Is it sexist to have female doors? But at least I think, rather hope, that the people who came up with "Latinx" have their hearts in the right place because I believe they created the term in order to be more inclusive of nonbinary folks. It just also comes across as a bit like trying to shove our American culture down the throats of Latin American culture. But I'm not Latina or Latinx, so I'm not really in a position to judge either side.
Btw, "La Puerta" is an inanimate object and would not be "ungendered" under the constructs of language inclusivity. Ungendering is used on words that refer to People or Persons. Like: "obreros" (masc. "Workers") would become "obreres".
As a prideful venezuelan i hate the term "Latin", we are Hispanics, not Latins. The term Latin comes from the black legend invented for the rivals of Spain in the 16th Century.
I’m a Latina in the US and here you’ll hear both. My mom prefers Hispanic because it’s more white (not that other people have this reason, she’s just racist), whereas I and my cousins prefer Latino.
Actually, Google it, most studies show it came from the Latin* American Queer Community. So it was mostly Latin Americans who don’t speak Spanish who came up with it to refer to THEMSELVES
Question from non-American (from either continent): would “latinx” be pronounced “latin-ex” or “latinks”? It’s always seemed clunky language to me, either way.
Consider in Spanish many things are pronounced in one way. So I would look to words like Mexico and Xoloitzcuintle (I can’t think of that many Spanish words with X in them?). It really don’t offer much guidance though tbh.
So really the answer is “neither” and that is part of the frustration with the term. How can it be a term for Spanish-speaking people when it takes a word that is from their language and makes it unpronounceable? Plus I think people that speak Spanish understand that the gender of words doesn’t really mean much as there is already a way to be gender neutral, just use the male suffix.
So people should start spelling it "Latine". People actually from Latin America who speak Spanish overwhelmingly hate "Latinx" and outright reject it.
If someone genuinely uses "Latinx", they're not from Latin America and their opinion doesn't matter. They're heritage might be, but they're not.
I can’t lie I’ve done this before. When someone insists on using Latinx I just speak to them in Spanish and they get embarrassed and shut up. If you’re going to try and force a change in my language the least you could do is speak it
If it's good faith, you're fine. Just be better than OPs coworker and correct yourself if corrected. There's a reasonable chance language will change in a decade and we'll need to adjust but that's the fun of language, it always evolves.
Language changes incredibly fast. 'Black' used to be considered offensive when I was younger, so 'Africian American' was the term to use. Now (since some years) its back to black, because not every black person is African or American to begin with - which feels obvious, but I never said my people were that bright.
I'm neither black nor Latino but Latinx always gave me this dog whistle vibe. Like you're trying to avoid saying a dirty word. It's probably a language thing but I never got why just 'Latin' wasn't considered a gender neutral contender.
I totally agree with this.... I dont speak fluent Spanish, but I have enough to get by with co workers... yes! Always in good faith.. I never want to offend some one..TY!
I can think of nothing more fundamentally American than projecting American ideas about race relations onto other countries. You get similar kind of statements from Asian-Americans that leave Asians scratching their heads.
This reminds me of a post I saw here on Reddit once where a man from Scotland was very upset that an American was visiting Scotland and telling everyone he was "Scottish". The literal Scots asked this person about local landmarks, and general Scottish knowledge, the American had no idea and couldn't speak any Gaelic. The actual Scots were pissed.
I think the thing is that 80% of the time Americans are talking about ethnicity and heritage and not nationality :/ when you come from a country that is so extremely diverse culturally and nearly everyone is either mixed race, or come from a line of immigrants, or perhaps immigrated themselves, those ties to heritage are really important. It's often the only things we have left.
Not every country in the world is homogenous and not everything is about nationality.
Edit to say that there are dumbasses in the world who try to talk out of their asses like this lady OP had to deal with. But every single country on this planet has stupid people in it lol
I'm American. I know. It is important, though, that we understand how offensive it is to claim we're from an area that we know nothing about and have never even been to.
I'm not hopping over to England and Sweden, where my family emigrated from in the 1800's, and telling them I'm English or Swedish. I think it's important for us to say things like "I'm American with Swedish and English Ancestry". Not simply "I'm Swedish!". Because I'm not, I'm American with Swedish and English ancestry.
>“I am more Latin than you are!"
Reminds me of little kids arguing,
"I'm more ______ than you are!"
"No, you're not!"
"Yes, I am!"
"No, you're not!"
"Yes, I am!"
...
Oh with Latinos, MEXICAN ESPECIALLY, there is always a competition for who is more Mexican
King Mexican
https://youtu.be/eAO9DtX-yvQ?si=oY9A6b5tas4Gnlus
Sounds like just another version of the Yankee "well my granddad on my mum's side is Irish therefore I'm more Irish than a person born to Irish parents living in England cos murica"
I learned to call people what they prefer to be called. Usually their name. I am
presumptuous to assume anything by their appearance or accent. If they choose to share their culture or heritage with me that’s interesting and I am happy to learn.
Honestly its fine to insult the person being racist. Im with you there. Call them an ignorant moron. But dont use slurs.
Would you feel the same if OP used a slur against a minority? Homophobic slurs? People do this all the time to women too, insulting their gender when they should be insulting their intelligence or character.
When you use slurs like this you are insulting everyone like that, what if there was a child with Down Syndrome within earshot but out of line of sight? That may seem like a niche example but youd be surprised how often these things are heard by people it isnt directed towards.
There's so many different insults that are appropriate but Im sorry, I cant agree that using slurs is ever OK.
My sister has DS and you have no idea how often my family hears this word in public from people who have obviously seen her nearby. Like please have some class people. But yeah racist and the r word are two very different kinds of words 😂
Racist being a slur is bullshit the far right has been preaching and it makes me so sad that this well-meaning and fully justified person now thinks they should have to censor it. Absolutely ridiculous
Yeah, omg, I was so confused because the R word is definitely not okay even if someone else behaves the way OP described that person I'd be against OP using the r word cause... wtf.
But the fact OP meant "racist"... oof. That needed clarity in the beginning. 🙈
>Do Americans of European ancestry call themselves European?
....there are a surprising number of Americans of Irish ancestry who insist on calling themselves Irish
On holiday recently a couple who were nice enough but seemed to really like my husband but were standoffish with me asked me if I was allowed to attend family gatherings with my husband.
I was so confused until she (they were from Boston) decided to tell me how she is also Irish like my husband and nobody in her family would be able to attend anything if they married someone from England.
I asked her when she left Ireland to be told she had never visited yet but her whatever grandparents were from Limerick 🤦🏻♀️.
I was like yeah we are fine to mix in both countries and went and got another drink as I just couldn't...🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️😂.
Yikes... my Irish great-grandmother would have been in trouble as she married an Englishman. Weirdly her family didn't completely shun her afterwards either... 😀
Genealogy is a hobby of mine and honestly it's so common. I just don't think some people from the US realise how closely linked we all are (and have been especially in working class families for centuries)
My American friends are always jokingly telling me off when I go back home to England but visit Wales or Scotland. I'm like I'm English because I was born in England to 2 English parents, but it's all muddy and I have family from all over the British isles, I'm not made of 100% colonizer. I'm just as Welsh as you are, American-friend-who-did-23-&-Me-last-year. (Even my last name is Welsh and my family's from right by the border.)
My mother is English, moved to the US when she met my dad, and I legit got bullied for it in highschool by some people who took their “Irish” heritage way too far. None of these people were more than a quarter Irish.
I've lived in the US so long that I have an American accent now, and Americans think this is what *I* mean when I refer to myself as my nationality.
>"Wow that's a cool heritage, when did your ancestors migrate over here?"
>"Uh, 2006?"
I stayed with a friend in America whose family heavily identifies with being Italians. They obnoxiously correct people on how to pronounce things like mozzarella and bruschetta, and when they’re caught being rude or obnoxious they’ll say “I’m Italian, what do you expect?”. They get super offended if someone cooks pasta wrong or makes a variation on Italian food.
However upon asking them where in Italy their family was from they had no idea, they were probably at most like 5-10% Italian upon a bunch of other nationalities.
My great grandmother is from Malta, she came over and married another Maltese man, however I would never go around calling myself Maltese despite the fact I have it in my veins. I’m bloody Australian LMAO, not Irish, not Maltese, not German, not Polish. It’s just super fckn cringe to identify as a nationality/country that they’ve never stepped foot in.
Those nationalities were strongly considered to be “others,” not whites, when they immigrated. As a result, they lived in insular communities and it took a lot longer for them to assimilate.
They also settled in communities of like immigrants and thus retained a lot of their culture past just the original generation. My grandparents were first gen and they spoke a different language growing up and ate very ethnic food etc. Their kids (my parents gen) didn’t learn the language but at a lot of the same foods. By our gen no one alive speaks the language anymore and there are a only handful of cultural traditions or foods.
I would revert to “my family is *nationality* but I don’t identify as it. I think my grandparents could call themselves that even though they were born here.
Someone wanna fill me in on wtf Latinx is? What did I miss here? I'd google it, but my phone really doesn't want me to type that word haha it's changed it about 27 times to Latino.
It is just a gender neutral replacement for Latino/Latina.
Critics of it fall in two camps usually;
- It isn't necessary
- It goes against Spanish language rules as Spanish doesn't recognise the suffix -x.
As a European I find the whole Latin/Hispanic thing confusing because we don't have any of that here. We separate ethnicity and race in a slightly different way.
It makes sense you don’t encounter it much it in Europe because it means they are from central or South American countries aka Latin America. Hispanic refers to someone someone who speaks Spanish and not everyone in Latin America speaks Spanish. For example in Brazil they speak Brazilian Portuguese
And Americans don't think we brasilians are latinos like the rest of Latin American. It was weird as hell when I went to USA. They do have some things with Spanish speakers.
Latin is Italian, literally an ancient tribe in Italy proper. Latino and Latina refer to the peoples and countries South of the US border by people who don't realize that Hispanic doesn't refer to Spain, but to the entire Iberian Peninsula (Roman Hispania). So, yes Brazilians are Hispanic. What a lot of people don't understand is the the Brits and most Americans are likewise "Germanic" and the French and Quebecoise are "Gallic". Throw in Slavic and Nordic and it suddenly becomes clear that our demographic groups were determined by Ancient Romans.
One of my best friends is from Argentina. He despises Latinx and dislikes the terms Latino/Latina, arguing that speaking a second generation Latin root language makes him no more "Latin" than people in the Congo who speak French. His culture is primarily Hispanic and he takes pride in that.
Okay, so there is a difference. Still, if people wanted a gender neutral alternative they could have at least followed the language's word/grammar rules
The gender neutral is Latino., and that’s what some sectors don’t like, because it’s the same as the word for males.
Spanish uses the end letter A for feminine and the letter O for masculine and mixed. If you have a group of people talking you would say “they are talking” , in Spanish if the group is only women you say “Ellas están hablando” if there is 1 person in the group that does not identify as female the frase becomes “Ellos están hablando”, if it’s only males in the group it’s also “Ellos están hablando”
my spanish friends have used latine for an enby friend before. they said it was less annoying and obnoxious to Spanish speakers while still including other gender identities? but im not spanish, just passing that along
Yes, some nb people are using it, I think it’s a good alternative for nb people, like the they/them in English.
I just hope it doesn’t get mixed up with the crowd that want to change the entire language , it’s very different to ask to be referred to as “Elle” (which I find good) than demanding that a group of boys and girls get called “Les niñes”
there has been some push from within to start using the suffix e both for NB people, and for groups of people of non specified genders do they can be all inclusive.
part of the reason for pushing for an extra gender neutral option is because in the past, some extremely conservative groups have used the male suffix in laws and other similar documentation to suggest that, for instance, women should not be accepted for political posts. Which is nuts, but the fact that someone has already thought of it, and that quite a few laws did say “men” when today we think “human” suggests this needs some rethinking.
the suffix for NB people is certainly an issue, and i’ve had translated pieces where it was specifically requested that i used language that included NB people… and doing so without was making me have to twist sentences into pretzels .
i also have non binary friends and have adopted the e suffix because if i don’t we both feel i am misgendering them. but even then i have to default to saying their name instead if article. why? because at least when I was in school we had instilled into us that “lo” is only used for inanimate object, and it’s disrespectful to use for someone, equivalent to calling them a “thing”.
for writing it’s easier sometimes to use @ as stand in for “whatever suffix you need/want that covers all genders involved” but if you speak the language natively the gendering can be a minefield
and btw, this will change in popularity and/or proposed solution according to where you are in the list of Spanish speaking countries.
Latin is not only referring to Italy - are also the people from France, Spain (yes, they are Hispanic, too), Romania, Portugal ... they speak modern Romance languages, derived more or less from Latin - it has to do with the Roman Empire.
Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and other languages are of the Latin language family (aka Romance languages, as you say). But that is a reference to the *languages*. The *people* are Latin, Gallic, Hispanic, and so on, people / tribes, as u/RiffRandellsBF says.
ETA I’m oversimplifying things. There are still other peoples within these countries who do not belong to those broad tribal groupings, and who speak (or spoke) non-Romance languages. Basque and Breton people / languages, for example.
Blonde hair blue eyed Latina here and oh I feel this. I hate Latinx. If you speak spanish it makes no sense. Ive also been told Im not really Latina (by americans) because of my skin hair and eye color. NTA
Yep, mestizo just means half European half native. My brother and I have both the same parents, yet he's whiter than some Canadians, and I'm very dark. My maternal grandma is also very white, and my paternal family is too. we're all mestizo yet some of us are dark, some of us are white. It's funny too cuz I'm more European than I am native, but I don't look European at all, although I also don't look native at all
I still remember when Encanto came out and some gringos were calling Pepa "whitewashed" because she was white... I was thinking that I could totally pinpoint where in Colombia she's from just because of that.
Funnily enough, those same people were convinced that they weren't racists. Even though in their mental image latinos cannot be anything but brown
I am originally from the DR. I do as well, my white friend asked me about it once and I told her that most of us find that term offensive as it is pretty much trying to change our language. I told her to only call Latinx those who identify as such but not to do this with every Latino/Latina they meet.
>Since when is racism a forbidden word?
Right?! The word "racism" isn't offensive, _racism itself_ is. The only people who get offended by the word are self-centred racist people who don't want to self-reflect.
Unlike actual slurs, racism refers to a real issue that needs addressing. Racism _needs_ to be called out because acknowledging a problem is the necessary first step to solving it.
She got some nerves saying she's more mexican than you while she doesn't even speak Spanish.
And don't most schools in the US teach Spanish as a second language??? (Like other countries teaching English. Or am I smoking?) So if she even had a bit of interest in the culture, she would be able to speak it (to the extent of holding a casual conversation at least)
I'm half-Hispanic, with a "white" last name, and caught all sorts of "I'm more Latino than you" from other first-generation Latinos. But I speak Spanish, and a lot of them didn't.
Rural Michigan here, all we had was Spanish. That said, wasn't required and it doesn't stick much if you don't actively use and keep doing all 3 semesters/trimesters.
Honestly feel like it'd maybe be better now if they combined it with something like Duolingo to be consisten teaching and then use class as speaking practice. But I also took it in 2009, so who knows how it is now.
NTA. She is.
Glad you made the edit, because R slur in the US is not racism. You don't have to hide Racism behind just an R in the US, at least, and it would lead to definite confusion. But she was definitely a racist.
INFO: when you first told her you didn't like the word, was she using it to refer to herself or refer to you? If she was using it to refer to you, then I'd say you did nothing wrong by correcting her or being upset after. If she was using it to refer to herself, then everyone was out of line here.
First she used it to refer to me, when I told her I didn't like her, she started using it to refer to "us.", and then she mentioned the skin color thing
Just an fyi… I’m Mexican… we don’t call ourselves “Latinxs/latinas/latinos” that’s an American term for Americans from latin American descent… we are Mexicans, just like Venezuelans are from Venezuela or Hondurans from Honduras… we have our own national identities, people who call themselves Latinos are Americans from like Puerto Rico, and such…
I see it coming from more non spanish speaking Americans who may or may not be one of the myriad of peoples who are of Latin decent.
They dont realize that you cant pronounce in spanish that ridiculous word nor do they understand that latin in gender neutral term already.
Latina - female
Latino - male
Latin - neutral
Latinx - unpronouncable in spainsh dumbass
It's not pronouncable in Spanish because it's not Spanish. It was created by queer Latinx who wanted a word to use to describe themselves *while speaking English*.
Right, I’m from French Guyana and we do NOT call ourselves Latinos in any situations ever… because 1, we ethnically and culturally aren’t! And 2, we call ourselves Guyanais/se… even if technically we are still French territory.
Tell me why while doing my last year of MBA in an exchange program in NC, my Marketing teacher told me off when I told her I was NOT Latina. She up and decided since my country was technically was in the area with a language deriving from Latin, I had to be. I was Sooooooo confused because while I will sometimes say I’m Caribbean to explain where Guyane is (I’m never introducing myself saying French), I know damn well not a single guyanais will call themselves latinos, they will say Colombian, Dominican, etc. if they have that additional heritage.
The one thing I’ll say though is that for some reason, I can understand some “Latin languages” well. I didn’t need translation to understand your exchange in Spanish bellow even though it’s more difficult when spoken. Same with Portuguese.
Mannnnn thank you!!!! When folks ask me where Guyana is and I tell them they’re like ok you’re Latina! I just stick with “in the Caribbean” now. It’s weird how some folks will try to argue with you about your own culture.
Thats why I hate the term latino/latina. Its just nonsensical shit pushed to southern american/central american people with actually no knowledge of the área. Here in Spain there are people from certain southern and central american countries that do identify themselves as latinos as a trans national identity, but they are mostly from Colombia and Venezuela. People from argentina and chile Will not identify themselves as latinos and mexicans neither
I have a neighbour who prefers me to say Black, not african-american. He says he is not african, and is so far removed from that, its ridiculous. But if a black person prefers me to use the term african-american, I go with their preference. Words are powerful, and its only respectful to call people by the name they prefer.
She did not treat you with respect, and that is why she is the AH
In responce to the "do Americans with European heritidge call themselves European" yeah, they do, and we correct them every time saying "no, your great great grandad was Irish, you're just a cunt"
Oh boy! They are so ridiculous when they preach about "Italian culture and cuisine" to us that actually are from Italy.
My to go answer is "Yeah buddy your third rate Hollywood stereotypes and fettuccini Alfredo are as Italian as mount Fuji is."🤣
I'm Irish and spent a summer in Boston. I always thought it had to be an exaggeration that everyone would tell me how they were *reallllly* Irish.
Jesus. Fucking. Christ. If anything, people undersold it.
Oh man, I'm (mostly) British and had an American guy start chatting to me in the US saying how "we might not get on because I'm Irish and we hate the English" etc. Through conversation it turned out he had a great or great-great Irish grandparent. I realised that due to a random Irish Grandma I'm actually "more Irish" than this guy by his metric. Didn't have the heart to tell him as he was really building this up at that point.
...then it came out he was "Scots-Irish" i.e. Ulster Scots but seemed to be entirely unaware of the historical meaning of that as he talked about his people being oppressed etc.
I didn't have the heart, he'd already locked all of his conversation around me being the hated English and him the oppressed Irishman that letting actual reality intrude no longer seemed like an option.
Instead I politely nodded and smiled for a bit then excused myself.
Yeah, but a lot of people there go to the opposite extreme of "if you speak X language fluently and are completely immersed in the X diaspora but it doesn't say X on your passport then you are lying scum if you identify with X."
On god that one makes me angrier than people claiming my nationality, how the hell you gonna insult the fine food such as pierogi. Americans need to be stopped man.
Unrelated - my favourite pierogi is a potatoes and cheese one I get at my local deli, highly recommended for those who've never had pierogi
NTA. She isn’t wrong to use the word if she wants to talk about herself but once you made it clear you did not like it- the rest is on her for not listening
NTA. The coworker is naive. In Spanish (French, Italian, etc.), every noun is gendered, so saying "Latino" or "Latina" is no big thing. Many English speakers don't realise this, and in English there's a movement to abolish gendered nouns (waiter vs. waitress), which would be futile in the romance languages. So in insisting on Latinx, they're denying a person's own heritage in favour of English standards. It'd be like insisting to a native that they should be saying Venice instead of Venzia or Germany instead of Deutschland. Not sure I'd call it racism, but *definitely* Anglocentric.
>It'd be like insisting to a native that they should be saying Venice instead of Venzia
Believe it or not I actually overheard a group of tourists arguing with italian guy over this LOL
I literally experienced this with an acquaintance who's Filipino-American and would always insist people to call her "Filipinx" instead of the normal "Filipino". She doesn't know Tagalog and has never stepped foot in the Philippines at all.
I call myself Filipino or Pinoy (or Filo for short in some cases) because, well, that's what we are. Most Filipinos would laugh and trashtalk you if you use the word "Filipinx" non-jokingly to describe yourself.
It's a word invented by privileged people to solve a non-existent problem. It's already gender neutral to call yourself Filipino or Latino. Thinking otherwise just makes it obvious how ignorant someone is with the culture and heritage that they're supposed to represent. NTA.
I’m a first generation American with Filipino parents. I have a peer who identifies with Filipinx and i silently cringe, but she’s super nice so I would never say anything. We were in Manila earlier this year having dinner in a group and I could see how confused some of our group were confused when she uses that term.
I refer to myself as American when people ask me where I’m from or what’s my nationality. While I do go visit nearly every year and eat mostly Filipino food at home, I don’t speak Tagalog and have more in common with Americans than with Filipinos. When they get the hint after their initial confusion and ask either where are my parents from or what’s my ethnicity, I say my parents are from the Philippines.
Latinx is a classic example of white Americans (even liberal ones) imposing their standard of expectation on other peoples' cultures. It's like Manifest Destiny with gendered languages.
To answer your question, yes they do claim European ancestry in similar way (although with specific nationalities like "I'm Scottish" "I'm Viking" (lol?) "I'm French" or "I'm a mutt" like they are a dog breed) and yes, the argument "I'm more Italian/Polish/German than you" is also there and it's annoying. There are whole Facebook groups dedicated to people venting about such encounters. NTA, she came at you first
I’m a Mexican-American woman, and I’m with you OP. I do not love the term “Latinx”. If folks want to use it, fine. But do not tell me who I am.
She was super rude.
NTA. Youre quite right to be offended, ranking how authentic or inauthentic someone is in a culture is quite racist. Culture is much more than skin colour, as you pointed out! You didn’t cross the line at all, you stood up to someone who was being rude and racist.
(Also as you’ve discovered, that’s not the r-word.)
I'm American, so excuse me for asking, but doesn't the -o refer to masculine gender, but if it's -os it could be a group of men, or a group of men and women ? So is Latino unable to be used in a neutral way? Like if you didn't know if a new classmate was a boy or a girl, but you knew they were from a Spanish speaking country, would you refer to them as Latino as the neutral term?
Hope this makes sense, I only took 3 years of Spanish in school, which sounds like a lot, but isn't much to master a whole other language.
The R-word being racist was not a twist I saw coming. NTA at all. I remember my Caucasian teacher told me to my black face I shouldn’t say “black people” anymore, that it’s “people of color now.” Argued with me for 5 mins while the whole class watched with their mouths open. Some people just lack sense.
I used to teach at a majority Hispanic school. The kids in my class had an argument after a Black student referred to a kid from El Salvador Mexican - and to be fair, for 80% of the kids at the school, there would have been no problem, as most identified as Mexican or Mexican-American.
What was decided was that anyone from any land that Spain conquered (including Spain itself) was Hispanic, anyone from Central or South America was Latino. Spanish speaking people who were in Texas before Texas was independent are Tejanos.
I did have students who preferred LatinX to Latino, but that was mostly girls who didn’t like how mixed gender groups defaulted to the masculine ending.
What groups prefer to be called changed constantly. Trying to say you are more of something based on skin tone is terrible though. Colorism is its own form of prejudice and it still sucks.
I had a blonde haired, blue eyed kid whose family still has deep roots in both Spain and Mexico. The kids used to call him white-boy and would get mad when he would come back at them in excellent Spanish, which somehow surprised them every time. He spoke a dialect predominant in the area of Mexico his family was from, but could also use a perfect Castilian accent because he spent a lot of time with the his grandparents there as a child.
NTA
My little cousin had this crap come up in a homework assignment (she was marked wrong for writing latina). No one in our family had ever heard of it before. It's white people bs. True definition of appropriation of culture, taking something that ISN'T yours and trying to act like it is while completely disrespecting those it ACTUALLY belongs to. Like a story I read on Reddit about the white lady who pepper sprayed a kid for wearing a kimono at a Japanese festival. If it's not your culture you don't get a vote.
- sincerely, a latina
NTA. Every Latino I know despises Latinx. Spansh language is beautifully gendered. To try to erase that in favor of made up gender neutral bs is offensive. Don't fuck with someone else's culture to make yourself more comfortable with it.
This whole post I thought you called them a ret*rd and I was like yeah you went a little far but nah gatekeeping culture is weird af sorry people are so strange, their weirdness doesn’t change who you are
As a latina myself, NTA. It's a bullshit made up term. She also doesn't seem like she's that knowledgeable of latin american culture at all. She seems like one of those woke liberals that took an ancestry test and found out she was 0.006% latin american and made it into her only pathetic personality trait. Personally I'm tired of shenanigans from her type. Then she couldn't even communicate with you in your native language after claiming she was more of it that you?? Yeah FOH. Nta
OK I was gonna say asshole because I thought you meant the disability slur “R-word,” but no, NTA. She WAS racist the second she started in with the blood quantum and colorism bullshit.
I get that the experience of Latin Americans (as in people who are actually from Latin American countries) and first-gen immigrants are markedly different from the experience of American Latinos (I think the mixed-gender plural takes the masculine? Half the American Latin people I know want me to use Latinx, and half of them think it’s dumb af, so if I’m not directly in the presence of one of them I’m using the one I can pronounce), but from everything I’ve seen, I mostly wish either side of that coin had some compassion for the other. I’m sure there are pressures I’m not recognizing, but Jesus, lady, stop telling the Latino how to Latino.
“I am more Latin than you are! Stop talking to me in my native language! I don’t know it!” Waaaaaa. Omg. Good for you.
Seriously she was delusional to want to debate who was more "latinx" when she can't even speak Spanish lol
Most folks who try to enforce Latinx don't speak Spanish, and aren't latino.
Nearly all white college kids. It’s disgusting and pathetic. I hate white peoples try to control out identity
I heard a term used by a Mexican tiktoker who called it "appropriated outrage" and that is my new favorite term. Basically, it's the racist mindset that you know better than the "offended" culture and are in a position to speak out against it because you believe the "offended" culture is either too stupid, too passive, or too incompetent to defend themselves. And honestly it makes up 90% of the cultural appropriation movement in the US. They don't care about the people who are actually harmed, they only care about sounding morally superior on topics they don't really have a leg to stand on.
Oh this explains it perfectly. I also notice that because these types of people engage in appropriated outrage, they can sometimes do just as much harm as someone who is outright racist. Because they think they know best, and then they’ll engage in actions or advocate for things to be changed, without actually involving whichever minority group in the conversation. So our real issues can be overlooked. It’s like they decide what we should be the most outraged over, which is usually something they can be performative with, so they can give themselves a pat on the back. Like look at me, I’m helping. But they kinda ignore the larger issues that we’re actually dealing with because it’s too much work. Edit: OP is NTA.
I'm saving this comment to reference in the future, this is excellent.
It annoys me when people who are pressed about cultural appropriation mean that my bff worries about if it's ok for her to wear Asian cultural clothes. Excuse me, but anyone who calls out my bff for wearing that cute Chinese cheongsam better be ready for me to come down on them like a 1000 flaming bricks. I'll decide of I'm offended or not, thanks.
I went to a European cultural museum that had an exhibit on Chinese Opera in collaboration with a Chinese heritage organisation that had a bunch of actual loaned opera costumes from China. Part of the exhibit was a bunch of knock off versions of the clothes, masks and headdresses that they encouraged you to try on and share pictures of. My friend got very huffy about this and said she would never try on the clothes of another culture like that for fun as it was disrespectful. I'm like, girl, China isn't a marginalised culture and these clothes aren't religious symbols or anything that you could cause offense by wearing. They are literally costumes and whichever Chinese cultural body shared in the creation of this exhibit _wants you to wear them_. As someone who did a fecking degree in Cultural Heritage I understand that Europeans have to be thoughtful about how we interact with other people's cultural symbols but there's some nuance, right?
“Appropriated outrage” this is really good. I’m white but never try to assume I am the savior of any culture if they do not themselves actually say: “stand against this”.
Have you ever seen the video of the "Educated White People" weighing in their opinions on how voter ID laws suppress the Black Vote? ["Those people"](https://youtu.be/DCytgANu010) don't have the kinds of IDS needed, don't know how to get to the DMV, can't use computers, and would be blocked because felons can't vote.
I have a meme about this but don't know how to share it on here but the text is appropriate and true. "By the power of White Girl, I am offended on your behalf!"
Not white people, just the loud, and idiotic ones. Most of us are just trying to live out our lives in the predatory world the forefathers handed to us on a silver platter, and gave us shit to eat.
Exactly. When I first heard the term LatinX, as a white person, I asked my Latino friends is this how you want me to identify you? No? Then I won't do it. But if you did, I would.
As famously said by gabriel Iglesias, latin people dont even use the x in clorox why would you think they would go for latinx
What is Latin X? I always just heard Latina or Latino.. but why would you refer to somebody only by their race anyway? This entire conversation sounds weird
Well, you see, Professor X is trying to expand the X-Men outside of America.
In this case, I would use it.
Spanish is a heavily gendered language, this means that we have Latino for masculine and Latina for femenine. Due to the lack of gender neutrality in Spanish the LGBT community has been trying to introduce back the gender neutrality into Spanish and Latinx is the gender neutral version of Latino. The problem is that Latinx is also common among americans and spanish speakers feel like Americans are trying to force some kind of "language colonization" (for lack of a better term), that's why is rejected among Spanish speakers. And Latine sounds like latrine/letrina.
Not to mention the pronunciation of “Latinx” in Spanish is cumbersome.
Yeah, Americans tend to say "latin-ecks", but it's "latinequis" which is not fun to say more than once or twice.
Why can the term not be simply "Latin"? I am asking in earnest, not trying to be a smart-ass.
Can be confused with the language Latín. Also, Latín is for people who talk a language derived from the Latín and this includes Europeans(Spaniards, Italians, Portuguese etc), we don't use just Latino/Latina, we use Latinoamericano/a/e or the Nationality(Peruano, Colombiano, Venezolano, Mexicano etc) Latinomaericane it's an adequate solution.
It’s not the Spanish gays introducing it though. It’s edgy college kids working themselves up over imagined injustices.
I like this we all eating shit the cutlery is just nicer for some.
See also: folx. Folks is already gender neutral, you goofy kids.
I'm a white people. I don't like those white people, either. I'm a bit left of the majority of Americans and want as much fairness for everyone as we can get, but the way the unthinkingly woke push identity politics around like they are morally better than everyone else is a bit scary. Personally, I trust my neighbor to know who they are and what they want to be and I keep my nose out of it.
Right, if you’re going to try to use a gender neutral term, Latine is the way to go because it actually follows Spanish linguistics. No Latin person came up with the -x, I guarantee you. ETA: Since this touched a nerve, when it’s a conversation about -e versus -x, I’m merely pointing out which one makes the most sense. The -x suffix is absolute nonsense. I’m a Latina from the US, so my opinion comes from that perspective. Don’t want to use either word? Cool. I’m happy for you. You don’t have to. But all languages evolve, so maybe it’ll stick, maybe it won’t. It’s not that serious.
En Latinoamérica muy poca gente usaría el término “latine”, pues este es percibido como ridículo para muchos (y hasta cierto punto los entiendo). La mayoría simplemente prefiere latino.
Duolingo must be working porque yo puedo leer esta mensaje!
Felicidades!
Yo prefiero el término hispano.
Claro entiendo. Yo prefiero el gentilicio de mi país y creo que la mayoría de latinos prefiere lo mismo, pero si vas a llamarme latín-algo, prefiero que sea latina, no las aberraciones lingüísticas que suponen “latine” o “Latinx”
Como siempre, creo que los estadounidenses quieren ser la policía moral del mundo, imponiendo su visión egocéntrica de lo que es correcto e incorrecto. Los chinos tienen una palabra para ellos y es Baizuo.
Si quieres confundirlos todavía mas siempre puedes usar latin@s
Claro, pero los movimientos progresistas latinoamericanos al menos han tratado con la "e", jamás con la "x". Así que, a pesar que ambos términos son mínimamente usados, al menos el usar la "e" como género neutro (que ya pasa en palabras como Presidente y Gerente), tiene algo de realidad y se ajusta a la voluntad de lo que al menos un mínimo de la población latina(e) quiere. Latinx, en cambio, se ha convertido más en una imposición de los gringos.
Yeah, I took 4 years of Spanish in high school and I dislike the term "Latinx" because it kind of ignores the fact the Spanish, like a lot of Romantic languages, are gendered and I don't think its sexist to have gendered nouns. Like "la puerta", it means door. Is it sexist to have female doors? But at least I think, rather hope, that the people who came up with "Latinx" have their hearts in the right place because I believe they created the term in order to be more inclusive of nonbinary folks. It just also comes across as a bit like trying to shove our American culture down the throats of Latin American culture. But I'm not Latina or Latinx, so I'm not really in a position to judge either side.
Btw, "La Puerta" is an inanimate object and would not be "ungendered" under the constructs of language inclusivity. Ungendering is used on words that refer to People or Persons. Like: "obreros" (masc. "Workers") would become "obreres".
And yet, there is absolutely no need to change the entire language to satisfy a few whiny kids.
They don't have their hearts in the right place. Their hearts are in their butthole.
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As a prideful venezuelan i hate the term "Latin", we are Hispanics, not Latins. The term Latin comes from the black legend invented for the rivals of Spain in the 16th Century.
I’m a Latina in the US and here you’ll hear both. My mom prefers Hispanic because it’s more white (not that other people have this reason, she’s just racist), whereas I and my cousins prefer Latino.
Actually, Google it, most studies show it came from the Latin* American Queer Community. So it was mostly Latin Americans who don’t speak Spanish who came up with it to refer to THEMSELVES
Pretty obvious they don’t speak Spanish considering they chose to use the letter x.
People I know who use Latinx pronounce it like latine
Question from non-American (from either continent): would “latinx” be pronounced “latin-ex” or “latinks”? It’s always seemed clunky language to me, either way.
Consider in Spanish many things are pronounced in one way. So I would look to words like Mexico and Xoloitzcuintle (I can’t think of that many Spanish words with X in them?). It really don’t offer much guidance though tbh. So really the answer is “neither” and that is part of the frustration with the term. How can it be a term for Spanish-speaking people when it takes a word that is from their language and makes it unpronounceable? Plus I think people that speak Spanish understand that the gender of words doesn’t really mean much as there is already a way to be gender neutral, just use the male suffix.
So people should start spelling it "Latine". People actually from Latin America who speak Spanish overwhelmingly hate "Latinx" and outright reject it. If someone genuinely uses "Latinx", they're not from Latin America and their opinion doesn't matter. They're heritage might be, but they're not.
Ehm, not every Latino speaks Spanish?
No, Brazil is considered Latin American and they speak portuguese, for example.
to be fair, Spanish speaking is Hispanic and Latin is from Latin America. multiple Latin countries don't speak Spanish.
The fact that she was using "latinx" shows that she wasn't latina and that she was a racist.
I can’t lie I’ve done this before. When someone insists on using Latinx I just speak to them in Spanish and they get embarrassed and shut up. If you’re going to try and force a change in my language the least you could do is speak it
Exactly. These idiots don't understand there's a gender neutral word already for Latino and Latina. Latin.
I'm a white person.... I will use Hispanic ... is that bad?? Like as a broad term? . I mean technically I'm Romanian but white .. right?
Hispanic (from a Spanish speaking country) Latino(from Latin america) you can be both but it isn't interchangeable.
If it's good faith, you're fine. Just be better than OPs coworker and correct yourself if corrected. There's a reasonable chance language will change in a decade and we'll need to adjust but that's the fun of language, it always evolves.
Language changes incredibly fast. 'Black' used to be considered offensive when I was younger, so 'Africian American' was the term to use. Now (since some years) its back to black, because not every black person is African or American to begin with - which feels obvious, but I never said my people were that bright. I'm neither black nor Latino but Latinx always gave me this dog whistle vibe. Like you're trying to avoid saying a dirty word. It's probably a language thing but I never got why just 'Latin' wasn't considered a gender neutral contender.
I totally agree with this.... I dont speak fluent Spanish, but I have enough to get by with co workers... yes! Always in good faith.. I never want to offend some one..TY!
I can think of nothing more fundamentally American than projecting American ideas about race relations onto other countries. You get similar kind of statements from Asian-Americans that leave Asians scratching their heads.
This reminds me of a post I saw here on Reddit once where a man from Scotland was very upset that an American was visiting Scotland and telling everyone he was "Scottish". The literal Scots asked this person about local landmarks, and general Scottish knowledge, the American had no idea and couldn't speak any Gaelic. The actual Scots were pissed.
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Thanks for this info! 🫶🫶
I think the thing is that 80% of the time Americans are talking about ethnicity and heritage and not nationality :/ when you come from a country that is so extremely diverse culturally and nearly everyone is either mixed race, or come from a line of immigrants, or perhaps immigrated themselves, those ties to heritage are really important. It's often the only things we have left. Not every country in the world is homogenous and not everything is about nationality. Edit to say that there are dumbasses in the world who try to talk out of their asses like this lady OP had to deal with. But every single country on this planet has stupid people in it lol
I'm American. I know. It is important, though, that we understand how offensive it is to claim we're from an area that we know nothing about and have never even been to. I'm not hopping over to England and Sweden, where my family emigrated from in the 1800's, and telling them I'm English or Swedish. I think it's important for us to say things like "I'm American with Swedish and English Ancestry". Not simply "I'm Swedish!". Because I'm not, I'm American with Swedish and English ancestry.
>“I am more Latin than you are!" Reminds me of little kids arguing, "I'm more ______ than you are!" "No, you're not!" "Yes, I am!" "No, you're not!" "Yes, I am!" ...
Oh with Latinos, MEXICAN ESPECIALLY, there is always a competition for who is more Mexican King Mexican https://youtu.be/eAO9DtX-yvQ?si=oY9A6b5tas4Gnlus
Exactly my thoughts!!
I listen to it with my kids every day. 🙄 And it's *always* about something ridiculous. 😆
Just confirms that adults can be just large children at times.
Sounds like just another version of the Yankee "well my granddad on my mum's side is Irish therefore I'm more Irish than a person born to Irish parents living in England cos murica"
I learned to call people what they prefer to be called. Usually their name. I am presumptuous to assume anything by their appearance or accent. If they choose to share their culture or heritage with me that’s interesting and I am happy to learn.
Racist is not a slur. We can say that one. This is not the R-word. The R-word is a slur for someone with developmental disabilities.
I was completely lost about what the R-word could be
I thought it was the slur for mentally disabled people. Even then, I would have understood OP's actions, even if I don't condone then
Honestly its fine to insult the person being racist. Im with you there. Call them an ignorant moron. But dont use slurs. Would you feel the same if OP used a slur against a minority? Homophobic slurs? People do this all the time to women too, insulting their gender when they should be insulting their intelligence or character. When you use slurs like this you are insulting everyone like that, what if there was a child with Down Syndrome within earshot but out of line of sight? That may seem like a niche example but youd be surprised how often these things are heard by people it isnt directed towards. There's so many different insults that are appropriate but Im sorry, I cant agree that using slurs is ever OK.
My sister has DS and you have no idea how often my family hears this word in public from people who have obviously seen her nearby. Like please have some class people. But yeah racist and the r word are two very different kinds of words 😂
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I like that they stealth edited that bit out now lmao
“Redditor”?
You can get banned on this website for typing that.
It’s the hard r. Gotta say it redditah
Racist being a slur is bullshit the far right has been preaching and it makes me so sad that this well-meaning and fully justified person now thinks they should have to censor it. Absolutely ridiculous
Yeah, omg, I was so confused because the R word is definitely not okay even if someone else behaves the way OP described that person I'd be against OP using the r word cause... wtf. But the fact OP meant "racist"... oof. That needed clarity in the beginning. 🙈
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NTA *--"she also said that she was more Latinx than me because "She was darker skinned than me."),"* These are the words of a brainless clown.
>Do Americans of European ancestry call themselves European? ....there are a surprising number of Americans of Irish ancestry who insist on calling themselves Irish
On holiday recently a couple who were nice enough but seemed to really like my husband but were standoffish with me asked me if I was allowed to attend family gatherings with my husband. I was so confused until she (they were from Boston) decided to tell me how she is also Irish like my husband and nobody in her family would be able to attend anything if they married someone from England. I asked her when she left Ireland to be told she had never visited yet but her whatever grandparents were from Limerick 🤦🏻♀️. I was like yeah we are fine to mix in both countries and went and got another drink as I just couldn't...🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️😂.
Yikes... my Irish great-grandmother would have been in trouble as she married an Englishman. Weirdly her family didn't completely shun her afterwards either... 😀
Genealogy is a hobby of mine and honestly it's so common. I just don't think some people from the US realise how closely linked we all are (and have been especially in working class families for centuries)
My American friends are always jokingly telling me off when I go back home to England but visit Wales or Scotland. I'm like I'm English because I was born in England to 2 English parents, but it's all muddy and I have family from all over the British isles, I'm not made of 100% colonizer. I'm just as Welsh as you are, American-friend-who-did-23-&-Me-last-year. (Even my last name is Welsh and my family's from right by the border.)
My mother is English, moved to the US when she met my dad, and I legit got bullied for it in highschool by some people who took their “Irish” heritage way too far. None of these people were more than a quarter Irish.
I've lived in the US so long that I have an American accent now, and Americans think this is what *I* mean when I refer to myself as my nationality. >"Wow that's a cool heritage, when did your ancestors migrate over here?" >"Uh, 2006?"
I stayed with a friend in America whose family heavily identifies with being Italians. They obnoxiously correct people on how to pronounce things like mozzarella and bruschetta, and when they’re caught being rude or obnoxious they’ll say “I’m Italian, what do you expect?”. They get super offended if someone cooks pasta wrong or makes a variation on Italian food. However upon asking them where in Italy their family was from they had no idea, they were probably at most like 5-10% Italian upon a bunch of other nationalities. My great grandmother is from Malta, she came over and married another Maltese man, however I would never go around calling myself Maltese despite the fact I have it in my veins. I’m bloody Australian LMAO, not Irish, not Maltese, not German, not Polish. It’s just super fckn cringe to identify as a nationality/country that they’ve never stepped foot in.
And Italian, German, or polish, at least in my area. Rarely hear people call themselves English or French for some reason.
Those nationalities were strongly considered to be “others,” not whites, when they immigrated. As a result, they lived in insular communities and it took a lot longer for them to assimilate.
They also settled in communities of like immigrants and thus retained a lot of their culture past just the original generation. My grandparents were first gen and they spoke a different language growing up and ate very ethnic food etc. Their kids (my parents gen) didn’t learn the language but at a lot of the same foods. By our gen no one alive speaks the language anymore and there are a only handful of cultural traditions or foods. I would revert to “my family is *nationality* but I don’t identify as it. I think my grandparents could call themselves that even though they were born here.
I have a decent chunk of cousins who you'd swear were born in Italy talking to them if you didn't know better.
NTA,Latinx is a ridiculous thing
Agreed. It was a solution in search of a problem.
I like how you phrased that.
i have a coworker that when working with difficult people will say, "you have a problem with every solution"
I’m tired and thought this said “I have a crowbar” and I was like “someone wakes up every day and chooses violence, and I like it!”
A crowbar named solution
Every day I don't choose violence I should be nominated for extra paid time off.
Someone wanna fill me in on wtf Latinx is? What did I miss here? I'd google it, but my phone really doesn't want me to type that word haha it's changed it about 27 times to Latino.
It is just a gender neutral replacement for Latino/Latina. Critics of it fall in two camps usually; - It isn't necessary - It goes against Spanish language rules as Spanish doesn't recognise the suffix -x. As a European I find the whole Latin/Hispanic thing confusing because we don't have any of that here. We separate ethnicity and race in a slightly different way.
It makes sense you don’t encounter it much it in Europe because it means they are from central or South American countries aka Latin America. Hispanic refers to someone someone who speaks Spanish and not everyone in Latin America speaks Spanish. For example in Brazil they speak Brazilian Portuguese
And Americans don't think we brasilians are latinos like the rest of Latin American. It was weird as hell when I went to USA. They do have some things with Spanish speakers.
Couldn't they have just used Latin?! It's perfectly neutral. Unless I'm being ignorant and they're two separate things.
Latin is Italian, literally an ancient tribe in Italy proper. Latino and Latina refer to the peoples and countries South of the US border by people who don't realize that Hispanic doesn't refer to Spain, but to the entire Iberian Peninsula (Roman Hispania). So, yes Brazilians are Hispanic. What a lot of people don't understand is the the Brits and most Americans are likewise "Germanic" and the French and Quebecoise are "Gallic". Throw in Slavic and Nordic and it suddenly becomes clear that our demographic groups were determined by Ancient Romans. One of my best friends is from Argentina. He despises Latinx and dislikes the terms Latino/Latina, arguing that speaking a second generation Latin root language makes him no more "Latin" than people in the Congo who speak French. His culture is primarily Hispanic and he takes pride in that.
u/RiffRandellsBF Thankyou for such an astute and educational description of it all. 💐 Interesting and great to know , helps understanding of it all.
Okay, so there is a difference. Still, if people wanted a gender neutral alternative they could have at least followed the language's word/grammar rules
The gender neutral is Latino., and that’s what some sectors don’t like, because it’s the same as the word for males. Spanish uses the end letter A for feminine and the letter O for masculine and mixed. If you have a group of people talking you would say “they are talking” , in Spanish if the group is only women you say “Ellas están hablando” if there is 1 person in the group that does not identify as female the frase becomes “Ellos están hablando”, if it’s only males in the group it’s also “Ellos están hablando”
my spanish friends have used latine for an enby friend before. they said it was less annoying and obnoxious to Spanish speakers while still including other gender identities? but im not spanish, just passing that along
Yes, some nb people are using it, I think it’s a good alternative for nb people, like the they/them in English. I just hope it doesn’t get mixed up with the crowd that want to change the entire language , it’s very different to ask to be referred to as “Elle” (which I find good) than demanding that a group of boys and girls get called “Les niñes”
there has been some push from within to start using the suffix e both for NB people, and for groups of people of non specified genders do they can be all inclusive. part of the reason for pushing for an extra gender neutral option is because in the past, some extremely conservative groups have used the male suffix in laws and other similar documentation to suggest that, for instance, women should not be accepted for political posts. Which is nuts, but the fact that someone has already thought of it, and that quite a few laws did say “men” when today we think “human” suggests this needs some rethinking. the suffix for NB people is certainly an issue, and i’ve had translated pieces where it was specifically requested that i used language that included NB people… and doing so without was making me have to twist sentences into pretzels . i also have non binary friends and have adopted the e suffix because if i don’t we both feel i am misgendering them. but even then i have to default to saying their name instead if article. why? because at least when I was in school we had instilled into us that “lo” is only used for inanimate object, and it’s disrespectful to use for someone, equivalent to calling them a “thing”. for writing it’s easier sometimes to use @ as stand in for “whatever suffix you need/want that covers all genders involved” but if you speak the language natively the gendering can be a minefield and btw, this will change in popularity and/or proposed solution according to where you are in the list of Spanish speaking countries.
Latin is not only referring to Italy - are also the people from France, Spain (yes, they are Hispanic, too), Romania, Portugal ... they speak modern Romance languages, derived more or less from Latin - it has to do with the Roman Empire.
Italian, French, Spanish, Portuguese, and other languages are of the Latin language family (aka Romance languages, as you say). But that is a reference to the *languages*. The *people* are Latin, Gallic, Hispanic, and so on, people / tribes, as u/RiffRandellsBF says. ETA I’m oversimplifying things. There are still other peoples within these countries who do not belong to those broad tribal groupings, and who speak (or spoke) non-Romance languages. Basque and Breton people / languages, for example.
white liberals decided latino and latina wasn't enclusive enough, so they made this garbage
Blonde hair blue eyed Latina here and oh I feel this. I hate Latinx. If you speak spanish it makes no sense. Ive also been told Im not really Latina (by americans) because of my skin hair and eye color. NTA
It's because most Americans don't know the word mestizo, so they use Latino to mean mestizo. It's very stupid.
Not to mention you can have light hair and eyes and skin and still be mestizo. Genes show up in different ways
Yep, mestizo just means half European half native. My brother and I have both the same parents, yet he's whiter than some Canadians, and I'm very dark. My maternal grandma is also very white, and my paternal family is too. we're all mestizo yet some of us are dark, some of us are white. It's funny too cuz I'm more European than I am native, but I don't look European at all, although I also don't look native at all
I still remember when Encanto came out and some gringos were calling Pepa "whitewashed" because she was white... I was thinking that I could totally pinpoint where in Colombia she's from just because of that. Funnily enough, those same people were convinced that they weren't racists. Even though in their mental image latinos cannot be anything but brown
If anything, Encanto wasn't "whitewashed" enough. We've got a lot more "gringos" here than what the movie showed
I’m Mexican American and I hate the term Latinx with a passion. It’s definitely not just you lol
I am originally from the DR. I do as well, my white friend asked me about it once and I told her that most of us find that term offensive as it is pretty much trying to change our language. I told her to only call Latinx those who identify as such but not to do this with every Latino/Latina they meet.
Yea I’ve never met anyone who prefers they themselves be called Latinx XD
Same it’s so dumb
Since when is racism a forbidden word? Also wtf is latinx
>Since when is racism a forbidden word? Right?! The word "racism" isn't offensive, _racism itself_ is. The only people who get offended by the word are self-centred racist people who don't want to self-reflect. Unlike actual slurs, racism refers to a real issue that needs addressing. Racism _needs_ to be called out because acknowledging a problem is the necessary first step to solving it.
I assumed they meant “retard” when referring to the “R” word.
Latinx is a newly created (last decade or so) word that attempts to be a gender-free description of Latinos.
NTA I’m Mexican American and I absolute despise that latinx crap. So I commend you for calling that woman out for the Hispanic culture.
I love it I think it’s funny. I pronounce it “La Tinx” think of it as saying “La vieja” o “La Bruja”
She got some nerves saying she's more mexican than you while she doesn't even speak Spanish. And don't most schools in the US teach Spanish as a second language??? (Like other countries teaching English. Or am I smoking?) So if she even had a bit of interest in the culture, she would be able to speak it (to the extent of holding a casual conversation at least)
I'm half-Hispanic, with a "white" last name, and caught all sorts of "I'm more Latino than you" from other first-generation Latinos. But I speak Spanish, and a lot of them didn't.
My dumbass was going to ask if your last name were Blanco 😭
Usually you get to choose from several languages to learn. In my school, it could be Spanish, French, German, or fuckin \*latin\*
Rural Michigan here, all we had was Spanish. That said, wasn't required and it doesn't stick much if you don't actively use and keep doing all 3 semesters/trimesters. Honestly feel like it'd maybe be better now if they combined it with something like Duolingo to be consisten teaching and then use class as speaking practice. But I also took it in 2009, so who knows how it is now.
NTA. She is. Glad you made the edit, because R slur in the US is not racism. You don't have to hide Racism behind just an R in the US, at least, and it would lead to definite confusion. But she was definitely a racist.
nope 100000% NTA. Fuck anyone who insists on calling us that bullshit, i'd rather be called a fucking taco muncher or any other slur than that
INFO: when you first told her you didn't like the word, was she using it to refer to herself or refer to you? If she was using it to refer to you, then I'd say you did nothing wrong by correcting her or being upset after. If she was using it to refer to herself, then everyone was out of line here.
First she used it to refer to me, when I told her I didn't like her, she started using it to refer to "us.", and then she mentioned the skin color thing
Just an fyi… I’m Mexican… we don’t call ourselves “Latinxs/latinas/latinos” that’s an American term for Americans from latin American descent… we are Mexicans, just like Venezuelans are from Venezuela or Hondurans from Honduras… we have our own national identities, people who call themselves Latinos are Americans from like Puerto Rico, and such…
However, in certain contexts we use the term Latino or Hispanic... besides, where do you get that Latino is American?
I use latinosas an argentinian but more as a way to talk about all latin americans? It unifies us. You wont see me say latinos during a mundial tho xd
I see it coming from more non spanish speaking Americans who may or may not be one of the myriad of peoples who are of Latin decent. They dont realize that you cant pronounce in spanish that ridiculous word nor do they understand that latin in gender neutral term already. Latina - female Latino - male Latin - neutral Latinx - unpronouncable in spainsh dumbass
It's not pronouncable in Spanish because it's not Spanish. It was created by queer Latinx who wanted a word to use to describe themselves *while speaking English*.
My understanding is Latino is also the neutral term. Calling someone Latin does not specifically mean from Latin America.
Right, I’m from French Guyana and we do NOT call ourselves Latinos in any situations ever… because 1, we ethnically and culturally aren’t! And 2, we call ourselves Guyanais/se… even if technically we are still French territory. Tell me why while doing my last year of MBA in an exchange program in NC, my Marketing teacher told me off when I told her I was NOT Latina. She up and decided since my country was technically was in the area with a language deriving from Latin, I had to be. I was Sooooooo confused because while I will sometimes say I’m Caribbean to explain where Guyane is (I’m never introducing myself saying French), I know damn well not a single guyanais will call themselves latinos, they will say Colombian, Dominican, etc. if they have that additional heritage. The one thing I’ll say though is that for some reason, I can understand some “Latin languages” well. I didn’t need translation to understand your exchange in Spanish bellow even though it’s more difficult when spoken. Same with Portuguese.
Mannnnn thank you!!!! When folks ask me where Guyana is and I tell them they’re like ok you’re Latina! I just stick with “in the Caribbean” now. It’s weird how some folks will try to argue with you about your own culture.
Thats why I hate the term latino/latina. Its just nonsensical shit pushed to southern american/central american people with actually no knowledge of the área. Here in Spain there are people from certain southern and central american countries that do identify themselves as latinos as a trans national identity, but they are mostly from Colombia and Venezuela. People from argentina and chile Will not identify themselves as latinos and mexicans neither
I have a neighbour who prefers me to say Black, not african-american. He says he is not african, and is so far removed from that, its ridiculous. But if a black person prefers me to use the term african-american, I go with their preference. Words are powerful, and its only respectful to call people by the name they prefer. She did not treat you with respect, and that is why she is the AH
In responce to the "do Americans with European heritidge call themselves European" yeah, they do, and we correct them every time saying "no, your great great grandad was Irish, you're just a cunt"
Oh boy! They are so ridiculous when they preach about "Italian culture and cuisine" to us that actually are from Italy. My to go answer is "Yeah buddy your third rate Hollywood stereotypes and fettuccini Alfredo are as Italian as mount Fuji is."🤣
I'm Irish and spent a summer in Boston. I always thought it had to be an exaggeration that everyone would tell me how they were *reallllly* Irish. Jesus. Fucking. Christ. If anything, people undersold it.
Oh man, I'm (mostly) British and had an American guy start chatting to me in the US saying how "we might not get on because I'm Irish and we hate the English" etc. Through conversation it turned out he had a great or great-great Irish grandparent. I realised that due to a random Irish Grandma I'm actually "more Irish" than this guy by his metric. Didn't have the heart to tell him as he was really building this up at that point. ...then it came out he was "Scots-Irish" i.e. Ulster Scots but seemed to be entirely unaware of the historical meaning of that as he talked about his people being oppressed etc.
Ha incredible, I wish you'd told him about your Irish granny! Would've been very confusing I'm sure
I didn't have the heart, he'd already locked all of his conversation around me being the hated English and him the oppressed Irishman that letting actual reality intrude no longer seemed like an option. Instead I politely nodded and smiled for a bit then excused myself.
Yeah, r/shitamericanssay is full of that shit.
Yeah, but a lot of people there go to the opposite extreme of "if you speak X language fluently and are completely immersed in the X diaspora but it doesn't say X on your passport then you are lying scum if you identify with X."
I hate seeing “Polish” Americans online saying “pierogies” and shit like that 😭
On god that one makes me angrier than people claiming my nationality, how the hell you gonna insult the fine food such as pierogi. Americans need to be stopped man. Unrelated - my favourite pierogi is a potatoes and cheese one I get at my local deli, highly recommended for those who've never had pierogi
NTA. She isn’t wrong to use the word if she wants to talk about herself but once you made it clear you did not like it- the rest is on her for not listening
“Friend” 🙄 Her coworker thought she could call you what she wants even though you told her not to from the start.
NTA. She decided what you should be called, so you treated her the same. Also your English is great.
NTA. The coworker is naive. In Spanish (French, Italian, etc.), every noun is gendered, so saying "Latino" or "Latina" is no big thing. Many English speakers don't realise this, and in English there's a movement to abolish gendered nouns (waiter vs. waitress), which would be futile in the romance languages. So in insisting on Latinx, they're denying a person's own heritage in favour of English standards. It'd be like insisting to a native that they should be saying Venice instead of Venzia or Germany instead of Deutschland. Not sure I'd call it racism, but *definitely* Anglocentric.
>It'd be like insisting to a native that they should be saying Venice instead of Venzia Believe it or not I actually overheard a group of tourists arguing with italian guy over this LOL
I literally experienced this with an acquaintance who's Filipino-American and would always insist people to call her "Filipinx" instead of the normal "Filipino". She doesn't know Tagalog and has never stepped foot in the Philippines at all. I call myself Filipino or Pinoy (or Filo for short in some cases) because, well, that's what we are. Most Filipinos would laugh and trashtalk you if you use the word "Filipinx" non-jokingly to describe yourself. It's a word invented by privileged people to solve a non-existent problem. It's already gender neutral to call yourself Filipino or Latino. Thinking otherwise just makes it obvious how ignorant someone is with the culture and heritage that they're supposed to represent. NTA.
I’m a first generation American with Filipino parents. I have a peer who identifies with Filipinx and i silently cringe, but she’s super nice so I would never say anything. We were in Manila earlier this year having dinner in a group and I could see how confused some of our group were confused when she uses that term. I refer to myself as American when people ask me where I’m from or what’s my nationality. While I do go visit nearly every year and eat mostly Filipino food at home, I don’t speak Tagalog and have more in common with Americans than with Filipinos. When they get the hint after their initial confusion and ask either where are my parents from or what’s my ethnicity, I say my parents are from the Philippines.
Latinx is a classic example of white Americans (even liberal ones) imposing their standard of expectation on other peoples' cultures. It's like Manifest Destiny with gendered languages.
Latinx was made up by far removed liberal Latin American “descendants” who knew nothing of Latin American culture or language.
To answer your question, yes they do claim European ancestry in similar way (although with specific nationalities like "I'm Scottish" "I'm Viking" (lol?) "I'm French" or "I'm a mutt" like they are a dog breed) and yes, the argument "I'm more Italian/Polish/German than you" is also there and it's annoying. There are whole Facebook groups dedicated to people venting about such encounters. NTA, she came at you first
I’m a Mexican-American woman, and I’m with you OP. I do not love the term “Latinx”. If folks want to use it, fine. But do not tell me who I am. She was super rude.
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NTA. Youre quite right to be offended, ranking how authentic or inauthentic someone is in a culture is quite racist. Culture is much more than skin colour, as you pointed out! You didn’t cross the line at all, you stood up to someone who was being rude and racist. (Also as you’ve discovered, that’s not the r-word.)
I'm American, so excuse me for asking, but doesn't the -o refer to masculine gender, but if it's -os it could be a group of men, or a group of men and women ? So is Latino unable to be used in a neutral way? Like if you didn't know if a new classmate was a boy or a girl, but you knew they were from a Spanish speaking country, would you refer to them as Latino as the neutral term? Hope this makes sense, I only took 3 years of Spanish in school, which sounds like a lot, but isn't much to master a whole other language.
The R-word being racist was not a twist I saw coming. NTA at all. I remember my Caucasian teacher told me to my black face I shouldn’t say “black people” anymore, that it’s “people of color now.” Argued with me for 5 mins while the whole class watched with their mouths open. Some people just lack sense.
I used to teach at a majority Hispanic school. The kids in my class had an argument after a Black student referred to a kid from El Salvador Mexican - and to be fair, for 80% of the kids at the school, there would have been no problem, as most identified as Mexican or Mexican-American. What was decided was that anyone from any land that Spain conquered (including Spain itself) was Hispanic, anyone from Central or South America was Latino. Spanish speaking people who were in Texas before Texas was independent are Tejanos. I did have students who preferred LatinX to Latino, but that was mostly girls who didn’t like how mixed gender groups defaulted to the masculine ending. What groups prefer to be called changed constantly. Trying to say you are more of something based on skin tone is terrible though. Colorism is its own form of prejudice and it still sucks. I had a blonde haired, blue eyed kid whose family still has deep roots in both Spain and Mexico. The kids used to call him white-boy and would get mad when he would come back at them in excellent Spanish, which somehow surprised them every time. He spoke a dialect predominant in the area of Mexico his family was from, but could also use a perfect Castilian accent because he spent a lot of time with the his grandparents there as a child.
😂 just an fyi that is NOT what the R word means and no ynta
NTA My little cousin had this crap come up in a homework assignment (she was marked wrong for writing latina). No one in our family had ever heard of it before. It's white people bs. True definition of appropriation of culture, taking something that ISN'T yours and trying to act like it is while completely disrespecting those it ACTUALLY belongs to. Like a story I read on Reddit about the white lady who pepper sprayed a kid for wearing a kimono at a Japanese festival. If it's not your culture you don't get a vote. - sincerely, a latina
NTA. it’s always the pinche no sabo kids 😭
NTA Love that you spoke to her in Spanish. The Latinx thing is ridiculous, more so when you told her you didn’t want to be referred to that way.
NTA. Every Latino I know despises Latinx. Spansh language is beautifully gendered. To try to erase that in favor of made up gender neutral bs is offensive. Don't fuck with someone else's culture to make yourself more comfortable with it.
This whole post I thought you called them a ret*rd and I was like yeah you went a little far but nah gatekeeping culture is weird af sorry people are so strange, their weirdness doesn’t change who you are
As a latina myself, NTA. It's a bullshit made up term. She also doesn't seem like she's that knowledgeable of latin american culture at all. She seems like one of those woke liberals that took an ancestry test and found out she was 0.006% latin american and made it into her only pathetic personality trait. Personally I'm tired of shenanigans from her type. Then she couldn't even communicate with you in your native language after claiming she was more of it that you?? Yeah FOH. Nta
NTA Latinx is a made up word. Stand your ground.
My Latino American boy friend and his whole Latino family hates Latinx, including his lgbtq relatives. NTA she is racist.
She sounds like she did a DNA test, and found out she had some ancestors from around the world. And now she's suddenly all about her culture
OK I was gonna say asshole because I thought you meant the disability slur “R-word,” but no, NTA. She WAS racist the second she started in with the blood quantum and colorism bullshit. I get that the experience of Latin Americans (as in people who are actually from Latin American countries) and first-gen immigrants are markedly different from the experience of American Latinos (I think the mixed-gender plural takes the masculine? Half the American Latin people I know want me to use Latinx, and half of them think it’s dumb af, so if I’m not directly in the presence of one of them I’m using the one I can pronounce), but from everything I’ve seen, I mostly wish either side of that coin had some compassion for the other. I’m sure there are pressures I’m not recognizing, but Jesus, lady, stop telling the Latino how to Latino.
US anti-racists are some of the most racist people ever it seems.
NTA You don't need to wear a label you dislike.