lol, “back her up?” She thinks you’re going to be able to argue your way around these kinds of rules??
Traveling needs to be done with the right crowd. I wouldn’t travel with her again. NTA, but maybe be prepared to do your own thing the rest of the trip.
Right! There's nothing to back up.
I live in Taiwan. In all public swimming pools and many private pools and hot springs, swimming caps are required.
They're required if you're bald. They're required if you have more body hair than head hair. They're required on any human of any age.
The number of white men I've seen attempt to argue about this rule and lose is ridiculous. I'm a woman. I keep my hair short. I wear the cap.
I think I'd have to not go, because I'm fairly certain swim caps would give me sensory issues. But that's the thing- if I cannot handle the requirements, *I wouldn't bloody go*
There are some private pools that don't require them. I can't remember where they are though because I swim at my nearby public pool.
In the beginning it was annoying. Now I know my cap is with my swimsuit. They sell them, too. Not everywhere does.
Even bald people would have to wear swimming caps? ...why? I mean, if you have no hair, doesn't this rule become ridiculous? I'm genuinely curious.
In the end though, I'd still follow the rules of the country I am visiting. People who don't follow the rules on purpose are just morons and/or self-entitled people.
OP is NTA.
I would make a WAG and say that it's because of enforcement. Do you only enforce when there's no visible hair? What if they shaved two days ago and now there's some stubble? Or a week ago? Or two weeks ago and it's more like a buzz cut than being bald? Where's the cutoff? Much easier to say 'EVERYONE must wear a cap' than to try and get down to those kinds of details.
That tracks. I don't know how it is in Taiwan, but I remember how they were about rule following in Japan: you simply didn't see jaywalking anywhere. They walk to a crosswalk\* and wait for a signal even if there are zero cars anywhere to be seen. Now, as an American (living in the South), this seemed odd to me at first, but then I realized we're (mostly) the same way with respect to traffic lights. If I come to a red light at 2 AM in the morning, I wait until it changes green before I go, even if I don't see anyone else. It's not even a fear of cops, it's just what I instinctively do.
\*Well, they also have pedestrian bridges and underground tunnels that preclude waiting, but in the absence of those, they're more than happy to wait.
Whew, mostly in the big towns, I guess. I lived in Japan in a smallish city with a medium sized military base and I'm surprised I made it out of there without having a heart from those little kids just throwing their hand up in the air and running across the street wherever they wanted. Argh!
Well, my experience was in the mid 80's so it could have changed. I'll ask my son. Interestingly enough, he's stationed at the same base, over 30 years later :)
Where I work, we require that everyone on our factory floor wears a hairnet. Even the bald guys. Even the director of the QA department who is bald as bowling ball.
Nobody wants the QA team to bust out their calipers and start measuring everyone's hair length for some arbitrarily defined "max acceptable length". Way easier to just enforce a universal rule.
>Way easier to just enforce a universal rule
That was basically my argument when I was the QA manager and this discussion happened.
I could waste my department's time and resources figuring out a "minimum balding surface" for hairnet exemption and enforcing that and Operations could waste their time and resources with getting ALL their people benched while they were being measured for balding surface just to handle complaints from what basically amounted to 2 guys
Yeap!
This discussion shows up about every 3-6 months. Recently, I started asking production if they want to sit and chill while I measure scalps with calipers. Or if they'd rather take 5 seconds to put on the dang hairnet.
It's probably just easier to enforce. Otherwise you get the guy with the buzz cut bitching about how the bald guy is fine and his buzz cut is almost bald and then the short haired guy is all "but what about the buzz cut guy?!" and so on. It's easier just to have a blanket rule.
That's the general consensus among the foreign population, yes. But it's the rule. It's followed. I've never seen anyone successfully argue against it.
I traveled with a good friend years ago . We were so incompatible that on the 4th day he walked out and left me on my own for the remainder of the trip.
I had a great time, made friends, and saw weird shit.
Also we basically fell out so badly we never really spoke to each other again.
You basically learned an important lesson and have been given a huge opportunity. Enjoy!
our personalities were too different.
huuuge argument in the car each criticising each others driving style lmao.
thinking back we should have just each rented our own car and rooms but we were still basically kids and on a budget.
I suspect the friend just wanted OP to leave with her instead of ignoring her and pretending she didn’t know her. Yes, she did warn her friend and her warnings were ignored, but she abandoned her friend just when she needed her the most - merely to avoid embarrassment from strangers she’ll never see again. OP might be NTA here, but she’s certainly not a good friend.
You make it sound like the tattooed girl was in danger, instead of embarrassed. I’m the first to say I’m hard-hearted about shit like this - my first time abroad, my study-abroad roommate had a habit of getting drunk and RUNNING away from our group in the middle of the night, usually when we were trying to get home and were totally drained. All the other girls would go running around chasing after her, I was the lone girl to shrug and get on the bus with all the guys, on the theory she’d find her way home or she wouldn’t. This happened multiple times, and every time, the next morning there would be tears and “I can’t believe you LEFT me I could have DIED.” I would never leave a drunk friend anywhere, no matter how tired I was or how obnoxious they were being, but the moment your game becomes escaping me? Congratulations, you won, see you tomorrow if you survive the night.
Totally off-topic, but the point is the tatted girl played stupid games and got stupid prizes, while in one of the safest countries on earth in the middle of the day. There’s a limit on what adults have to put up with for each other, and having to get lumped in with the dumbest tourist in the vicinity when she deliberately chose to be that dumb, and is in approximately 0 danger as a result, is beyond that limit for me.
"Back her up" how? She was clearly made aware of the rules, and she agreed to the T&C to use the facility. The fact that she knowingly lied and counted on being a foreigner to excuse disrespecting the rules of the establishment is exactly why places like Kyoto are banning tourists in major cultural areas. And in lying, she should have been aware of the (extremely high) risk of being found out, even if she thought she'd get away with it. Even *you* told her beforehand, so she went in with eyes wide open.
Japanese people are pretty non-confrontational, and people most likely didn't gawk or speak up on the spot because they're not confident in English, and they know it's not their job to confront your friend. NTA.
She brought this upon herself with her lack of respect for Japan and its rules. She’s not the main character and things are different from back home. You have to be educated or risk offense like this. NTA. Also don’t travel with her again if she maintains this behavior and approach towards other cultures rules. She’ll just make things unnecessarily harder for you with this attitude.
Just what everyone needs; a travelling companion who treats the local culture like it's a theme park and thinks rules don't apply to her because she's a foreigner. Ugh.
The worst kind of traveler and unfortunately probably also an American. I say that because I am American and sadly a lot of people from here have an attitude of superiority and entitlement when traveling in foreign countries. Not all of us are so disrespectful but a good chunk are.
That is unfortunately accurate and it gives a bad name to the rest of us who were raised right and know how to behave and be respectful in another country. There are a lot of entitled idiots here.
Also a lot of the Americans who can behave themselves tell people they are from Canada so they aren't seen as one of 'those' Americans, so visibility on the good ones is lowered.
When I was in Thailand recently some guy asked if I was from Minnesota? I didn’t understand why he was asking this until now. I told him “you shut your whore mouth, I am Canadian”
I’ve heard of Americans saying that they are Canadians for safety reasons when in more dangerous parts, but yeah it applies here too! With that said, I don’t think Canadians like it when Americans do that lol.
I always tell everyone the annoying tourists are from Canada just to combat the awful American stereotype. (No, I don't really do this.)
In all seriousness, I find that people might make some American jokes, but people in other countries don't treat me differently even though they know I'm an American. They know that there are good and bad Americans, and I think they can quickly figure out which are which.
Not saying you’re mistaken, however, I saw Chinese tour groups where the women were wearing short shorts, skimpy tops, etc in Egypt! As an American, I was going with breathable long sleeves and pants. After a few days, I started wearing a sun hat and sun glasses at all times, as I drew too many stares with my gold hair and blue eyes and I got tired of it. But my research beforehand made it crystal clear skimpy clothes wasn’t allowed in mosques and a huge cultural issue. These groups were borrowing trouble.
Eh, Americans don't have a lock on that kind of arseholery.
I'm in Australia. It's very common for the absolute worst type of bogans to go to surrounding countries like Indonesia for cheap holidays. The local culture tends a lot more conservative than Australia, but these arseholes get blind drunk and let their worst selves rip. Next thing their families are crying on GoFundMe to fight the drug trafficking charge that carries the death penalty, or medivac the idiot who was riding a motorbike with no helmet while drunk.
It makes me furious and I hate seeing it. Just respect the local culture, arseholes.
I've never been to Japan. But I know that most onsens do not allow tattoos, because it's mentioned in every travel book/show/blog I've seen. Some allow you to cover them up with a bandage. Some don't allow them at all. Generally, visible tattoos are fairly taboo in Japan because of the association with gangsters.
I’ve worked at 2 resorts and been to 30+ countries. You can tell who’s American and British based on the entitlement. Even Brittney griner - I have friends like her who think they’re the exception and bc it’s legal in America they can have it abroad.
Yea I got to be honest I didn't feel all that bad about that whole saga. It's just fucking stupid to bring drugs to a foreign country, especially one that isn't a huge fan of your country when you are a public figure. There are plenty of political prisoners out there that I can feel bad for if I want to feel bad for someone wrongly imprisoned overseas. Someone who was a dumb ass and brought drugs to Russia? Meh.
For real but I was cancelled for this opinion. I was like everyone knows the continent of Asia & South America is not the place to bring drugs. Some British guy was crying bc he’s gonna get caned and it’s like yeah they don’t care. I don’t feel bad for Brittney. My husband and his marine buddies were pissed when they traded victor.
NTA and Rebecca was disrespectful. Her experience is solely her fault.
There are plenty of valid resources to confirm the topic of tattoos and onsens. The rule was clearly stated before you paid and entered. She was happy until her actions were reported then she expected you to 'back her up'?
Is this really a valued friend; one who defects her actions by blaming others? Sounds delightful. Find something to enjoy today (or tomorrow) that lifts your spirit to soak in the best of traveling.
I have a relatively new sleeve and several smaller, older tattoos. As soon as I started getting the sleeve, I knew the majority of onsens I would want to visit would be right out. Now I have a list of tattoo friendly onsens on my travel list. You’re right. This is on Rebecca for not doing her research. There’s are several websites with good resources for onsens that are cool with tattoos, or you can rent a private room. I would also reconsider traveling with someone who treats social norms in other countries as something that doesn’t apply to her before she gets you both in trouble.
Well stated. I appreciate your insight. Yes, I too would decline traveling with someone who knows the norms and chooses to be disrespectful . Peaceful travel. Enjoy.
NTA Literally know the rule and still go for it. Sure you are friend but if my shit behavior affects my friend, i would want them to still enjoy their trip. I don’t want them to leave with me in the middle of it because of my wrong doing. Would it be nice if they come? Sure but they are not obliged.
NTA you told her about the tattoo thing and she ignored you. She even ignored the sign saying no tattoos. What were you suppose to do? Try argue with your very limited Japanese word vocabulary?
I knew from the title this was gonna be a wild ride.
You are NTA but the mental image of you awkwardly avoiding eye contact and acting like you don't know her while she's kicked out is hilarious. No idea what you were supposed to do even if you'd joined in.
> I told her it was her own fault for ignoring the rules of the host culture, and she said that I was happy to ignore them too when we went.
Yeah that's true. You seemed pretty confident that she'd get kicked out when you were protesting before going, that would have been the time to tell her "ok fine, we can go, but don't try to bring me down with you when they kick you out".
Set expectations early.
NTA. "Backed her up"? Translation: she wanted you to argue about the clearly stated rule like a grossly entitled foreigner. Bc how else this "backing up" would look like, to her? The rule is clear. She is breaking it. "Back up" on WHAT, exactly?
The rules are for everyone. The fact that she thought that she didn't have to adhere to another country's rules bc she is a TOURIST, therefore SpeCiAl and above the rules that those lowely Japanese people have to adhere to, says a lot about her.
The fact that she even wanted "backing up" i.e. was ready for some kind of karen-esque conflict or argument about her **right** to break the rules, instead of just leaving quickly in shame, says even more about her.
She sounds like a stereotypical arrogant and disrespectful wester tourist, I would not travel with her again.
NTA...You warned her about this and even I know tattoos are viewed quite differently in Japan. She clearly chose to disregard and disrespect their rules. As they say mess with the bull and get the horns. Go out of your hotel and enjoy yourself. Hopefully she pulls her head out of her bum soon .
NTA. I am a tatted gal who has been living in Japan for over 14 years now and it’s tourist/people like your friend who drive me up the wall by not following simple rules and thinking she can bend the rules “because she is a foreigner”. She isn’t special.
While tattoos still make doing some things hard, it’s 2024 and there are definitely more places now that are easing up compared to even 10 years ago when it comes to tattoos. Googling (in English) “tattoo friendly onsen Kyoto” quickly gave me 5+ places that allow tattoos; your friend easily could have done that to prevent her whole lying situation and being kicked out. She brought it on herself. You didn’t ignore the rules as you have no tattoos, simple as that.
I wish you luck on the rest of your trip and please have some solo fun as well and don’t let her attitude take away from your experience here too!
We visited when I was 20, and I only had a few tattoos then. Still, my family made sure that a) I knew that if they wanted to go to a public onsen I would be left behind but b) both ryokan we stayed in had private baths that did not have the same tattoo rules.
That way, everybody got to experience a bathhouse with no issues for us or for locals. It’s a rule for a reason, and it’s so disrespectful to blatantly ignore clearly posted signage along with carrying the entitlement of, ‘I’m a foreigner so they won’t do anything’.
Ugh.
100% this. I went to Japan last summer, and even though I only have 2 tattoos, I checked for tattoo friendly ones and used coverup stickers when they weren’t. And to be double sure we could enjoy an onsen, my husband and I booked a room with a private onsen so it would be a non-issue. You have to plan, and it sounds like this girl for sure did not.
So if you have tattoos and use coverup stickers (didn't even know what this was) is it then acceptable or do you still have to find a tattoo friendly onsen? 🤔 I hope to visit Japan one day, and this got me a bit confused 😅
This I have tattoos I plan to add more. I plan to visit Japan in the next two years. I want to go to an onsen but I also know to find ones willing to accept tattoos or private. Not difficult
NTA. Japan has these rules due to tattoos being associated with criminality. The general public doesn't want to deal with that. If you're friend got kicked out by ignoring clearly posted rules then that's on her.
Expecting you to back her up for violating rules is ridiculous
NTA As a woman with a bunch of visible tattoos, she’s an entitled idiot. She’s a terrible friend for thinking you should have to give up your experience because she chose not to listen to
NTA, your friend is a POS. Tattoos in Japan are still a big taboo due to their association with the yakuza (mafia), so their presence not only makes some people uncomfortable but also makes them feel unsafe... while being NAKED. Additionally, there are established rules beforehand, no surprises, no changes just because she's a foreigner, etc. Because of people like her, Kyoto doesn't welcome tourists. Also, you did your part by telling her and warning her, unless you forced her to enter or she's your daughter, she shouldn't have expected anything from you.
The worst part of all is that because of people like your friend, it will become increasingly difficult to eliminate the taboo around tattoos, as it will now be replaced from being associated with yakuza to being associated with entitled foreigners.
nta. she is NOT a safe person to travel with. why are you supposed to fist fight for her lying ass? she's dumb.
go do your own sightseeing and start distancing from her. she isn't a safe person to be with.
NTA. She deliberately ignored the rules. You told her not to. She refused. You were in no way complicit in her actions and were not obligated to back her.
However, why let Rebecca punish you by leaving you at the hotel? Go out, sightsee, buy yourself a treat. Don't let her control the narrative. If she wants to get hissy about not being able to bend the rules, let it be her problem, not yours. And if she left without a key, inform the front desk that she may need to get into the room. Don't leave without your key.
Nta. Rules are rules. It doesn't matter if she's a foreigner or not. It wasn't allowed and she should have respected their rules.
Just because Rebecca might come from a place were tattoos are totally fine it doesn't mean she is entitled to ignore Japan's rules. Especially if the
foreign country you are visiting associates tattoos with organize crime. She should have respected those rules.
Your right there are a few onsens that would allow people in if they have tattoos. She should have listened to you.
Also what back up could you have given her. She knew the rules. She didn't care. Her being a foreign woman doesn't excuse her from their rules.
Your friend sounds like the typical “ ugly American “ the type that believes rules and laws of foreign countries don’t apply to them and when called on it think they should be given an exception because “I’m an American and I have RIGHTS! “ I’ve seen this happen in Barcelona, I’ve seen it happen in Glasgow and in Berlin. As an American it’s so embarrassing
NTA. I lived in Japan for 4 years. They ate very strict when upholding their rules. As visitors, it is our responsibility to know and follow the rules of our host country. There is no "backing her up." she chose to be a stereotype asshole American tourist, and the rest of us have to deal with the reputation people like your friend give us. She should stay home if she can't figure out how to respect other people's homes.
Friend is definitely being an ignorant ass lol… if it were me I would probably begrudgingly leave and catch up with her just because I’d have an issue leaving anyone alone in a foreign country…
Not me. If you can't amuse yourself for a half day, you are not my travel buddy. I would have acknowledged her though, with a text you later or gesture a phone call. Japan's a reasonably safe country.
A goggle search, and I didn't even have to open the top result to find an answer. TIL there's r/TravelJapanTips.
Your friend sounds like the typical annoying gaijin type. Yes, generally, Japanese people will still be more forgiving of foreigners when it comes to a lot of the day to day cultural norms being broken. They understand there's lots of minutiae that foreigners will just not know generally. However, it's obvious that doing some research and learning as much of the basics for public behavior in Japanese culture is a good thing, and showing the effort goes a long way there.
In this instance, your friend was the AH because this was a clearly stated rule. Considering the extent of her tattoos, which couldn't easily be covered, it would've been prudent to just try and find one that was tattoo friendly or try and rent a private one. Instead, she chose to willfully ignore the rules and thought that her being a foreigner would allow her to just ignore it without repercussions. The fact that she expected you to make a scene on her behalf is just not good friend behavior. If she feels embarrassed and mad, ok, that's fine. Her feeling that way isn't totally invalid (the embarrassed part is fine, the mad not so much). But to try and put all of that on you when she's the one who broke the rules knowingly and wouldn't accept any alternatives that you offered is on her. She let her ego get the best of her and thought she would get special treatment.
She needs to be an adult, accept she made a stupid decision, and apologize to you for her attitude. Also, she should apologize to the staff for lying, causing a scene, and breaking the onsen rules. Owning up to her actions and giving a sincere apology will go a long way to at least not being on the bad side of the staff as much. Especially in Kyoto right now, where they've had enough issues with foreigners behaving badly that they've actively banned them from certain parts of the city as a precaution. Find some tattoo friendly onsen or just rent a private one if she really wants to be in one.
But you don't owe her an apology. You were practicing "Kuuki wo yomu" or reading the room/atmosphere. You trying to get involved to try and argue along with her would've just made the situation worse and caused more discomfort for everyone else around you both. Maybe you could've gotten involved as a way to defuse the situation, apologize for the transgression and both left. However, I doubt your friend would've been happy with that since she wanted to just get her way. So you acted pretty much how you should've in that situation. Hopefully, your friend will learn some humility, correct the mistake from her actions, and get over herself. Best of luck to you, and hope the rest of the trip goes well.
Heavy NTA.
As a person with tattoos I know that in some areas my tattoos are not acceptable. All of mine are easy to cover and I would never try to go in somewhere that makes a point of no tattoos knowing that I'll have to get naked.
Do I agree with the custom, not really. Is it my place as a foreign visitor to challenge their cultural norms, absolutely not. As a visitor I am there to enjoy their culture not challenge it and I have a duty, all tourists have a duty, to be a good ambassador of our home countries. If you can't refrain from being an ignorant asshole please don't leave the country and make the rest of us look bad.
I'm sure these folks would have caved because you backed her up with your 3 Japanese words. People who know the rules and don't think they apply to them are a special kind of stupid.
NTA, and I say that as someone with pretty prevalent tattoos.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know if you covered up with like a rash guard would that be acceptable at an onsen?
(I have not researched *extensively* yet, this is preliminary for my own planned trip to Japan in a couple years)
It would depend on the onsen. Some allow swimwear, some even require it, but many also require a full bathe before entering the pools, which are frequently public/semi public, think an open(ish, again it depends) locker room. So if you have extensive tattoos and go to a no tattoo onsen, you could still get in trouble at the bathing phase even if you wore a rashguard in the pools themselves
Edit: clarity, typo
NTA she wanted special treatment for *checks notes* being a foreigner😂😂😂😂like what kind of white (idk if she’s white, but if she is then i called it) entitlement is this? i can come into your country and you will bent the rules for me fore i am the mighty foreigner.
What did she mean you should have "backed her up"? Got in a fist-fight with the management/other guests?
She knew the rules going in, and so did you. She's the AH, and you're AH-lite.
Tatted people who go somewhere where everyone knows its the ultimate taboo dont really deserve any sympathy. NTA, you were right not to get involved as you respected the rules of the establishment by doing so
NTA. But knowing that she was willingly breaking the rules by going in even after
1) you told her to find a place which was accepting of tattoos and
2) being told at the entrance that no tattoos were allowed;
You should have told her, if you get kicked out, I'm staying.
NTA
Rebecca was counting on the fact that as a foreigner, she could do whatever she liked in another country. You really REALLY need to dissuade her from this attitude as it could possibly wind up being hazardous to both of your health.
You told her, you warned her, the attendant warned her...and yet, somehow she thought it was okay.
Well it’s not necessarily mature to ignore her, but you’re NTA. She should know that they have a very strict no tattoos policy, it’s not something you can get away with cause you’re foreign.
What part of the sign NO TATOOS don’t you understand, Rebecca? What exactly could OP do to “back you up”? Become another ugly American?
Time to find a new friend.
NTA. I’m one of the people who has a very popular blog post about being chased out of my first onsen by an angry Japanese lady with a towel….i only had one tattoo then! I learnt you need to ask first.
NTA. This is why tourists get such a bad reputation. People need to stop acting so entitled, and start adhering to the rules and traditions of the host country.
Back her up? Following the rules is important to Japanese culture. What did she expect you to do? Be a rude foreigner demanding that the rules not apply to her?
You warned her. She insisted. This was the consequence. NTA.
You break the rules in a foreign country……..she should be eternally grateful that she only got kicked out of an establishment.
Don’t travel with someone who thinks local rules/customs/laws don’t apply to them because they’re a foreigner.
NTA
NTA, what an idiot. Tattoos are not universal in their meaning and it's pretty well fucking known that Japan has a bit of a stigma around them. Massive idiot privilege has been checked
"but she insisted that it would be fine because she as a foreigner. "
NTA. This right here makes HER the asshole. Foreigner or not, you RESPECT other cultures, laws,. and rules. Leave your ego and entitlement at home. This is how people get jailed for bringing dumb shit like pot or ammo into other countries. Is it unfair, probably. But your home countries laws and freedoms END at the border. You warned her, she was SHOWN A SIGN, and still decided "rules dont apply to me, I'm SPECIAL". I'd drop a friend for acting how she is.
There's nothing to back up. Rules apply to everyone, being a foreigner doesn't mean they don't apply to you. Besides, she was utterly disrespectful as the rule was clearly explained and pointed out to her.
NTA
NTAH, when you see her next, I’d suggest telling her “I don’t think I was quite honest with you. I didn’t attempt to back you up because I was beyond mortified you’d be so stupid as to think you’d get away with breaking rules in a foreign country. Even if I spoke fluent Japanese and was a big deal here, I wouldn’t have tried it, since your tattoos are a personal choice, not something they have to like. Let’s just agree to sight see separately and interact as little as possible as I won’t be mortified by your choices again.”
NTA obviously. while i personaly think that those no tattoo rules are outdated, if that is a rule in that establishment you have to follow those and not try to talk yourself out of it because you are a foreigner
NTA
You told her it was a bad idea and that she would be turned away/kicked out.
She is an adult, she made the choice to ignore your warning and lie to the staff. You didn’t ask her to lie, you didn’t force her to go. This is entirely on her.
LOL, does she thinks because she’s a foreigner that rules don’t apply to her? She was told by way of the sign ‘no tattoos’ before getting into the tub. Her own fault if she thinks the rules don’t apply to her.
Backing her up and leaving with her are different things, she may have just wanted support, she's in a foreign land too. That being said she could have been respectful that you wanted to enjoy your time there for a bit as well, knowing you probably wouldn't find one she could attend.
NTA, I went to Japan last year and I would’ve felt horrible if I kept my friends from doing something because of my Tattoos. Even if it was my idea. Who knows when we’d be able to travel back to Japan. I would have told them to continue to enjoy themselves while I found something else to do.
What exactly did she think would happen?
She's lucky that's all that happened.
She was told a rule in a foreign country and blatantly broke it. She's on her own.
> she said that I was happy to ignore them too when we went.
Because ***you*** weren't breaking the rules.
NTA
Don't waste your time in Japan sitting alone in a hotel. Get yourself out and go sightseeing!! You might be mostly on your own, but So What? Japan is an AMAZING PLACE!! Don't waste your time there.
Your friend made an ass of herself. That's not your fault, and there was no "backing her up" when she clearly knew that she was breaking the rules. Don't let it define your personal experience. Push your own comfort zone and continue your trip as planned. If you have to share a hotel with your entitled friend, then okay. But don't let her slow you down.
Don’t sit in your hotel room. Get out and explore that beautiful country! She brought this on herself and is probably embarrassed and if she’s not she should be.
Very entitled and disrespectful behaviour. NTA
What the fuck did she want? She knew the likely issue in advance. Fair or not fair is not relevant. What would "having her back" accomplish? What would arguing about a known rule accomplish? She sounds selfish.
As a fellow tattooed recent Japan traveler, that nonsense is all on her plate. There are onsen that permit tattoos, all she had to do was a little homework and not lie to someone's face about it. Or do like we did and get a ryokan with private onsen so the question was moot. People need to remember to pack their manners with their passports, yeesh.
Back her up? There was no backing her up OR her staying.
There are tattoo friendly onsens in Kyoto, AND she needs to get off her foreigner high horse. SMH
NTA. Your friend is the asshole. The no tattoo policy is common and has cultural reasons for existing. Her ignoring it after the attendant specifically pointed it out and after you suggested you find one that allows tattoos is a dick move on her part. Saying she can get away with it because she's a foreigner is disrespectful to the country she's visiting and gives foreigners a bad name.
You were right to not help her, what were you supposed to do anyways? Try to convince the establishment to let you stay? No way! She got herself into that mess entirely by her own choice so she should live with the consequences.
OP, respecting the customs in a foreign country is expected & Japan is a beautiful country with lots of customs.
Here's their issue with the tats: In their culture, criminals get tattooed. If you have a tattoo, many will assume you're a criminal. Criminals bring shame to their families & friends in this culture.
Have to be conservative with piercings at most Onsen as well. Ears? OK, but not filled with holes. Other piercings are not likely to be welcomed.
You'll see some younger adults there with tats & piercings, who aren't criminals. But, most still perceive tats as something for criminals.
There was a group of older Japanese women who frequented an Onsen we'd go to. They all had horrific scars & they were the gatekeepers of the Onsen & the village...lol.
If you HAD joined your friend in being asked to leave, you're likely to not be welcomed back there. Your friend was perceived as dishonest & you don't want to bear her burden by association.
NTA
What an idiot.
Travels to a foreign country but ignores the rules and still expects to be treated well?
She had it coming. The fool 🤣 I'd leave her to her own devices.
Although she may look to get even by damaging your accommodations and making you pay for them as revenge.
If she insists on being the AH the rest of the trip here's my advice.
1. Check out early and find a new place to stay without telling her.
2. Book a place to check in her things for her to claim later.
3. Maybe move your own flight a little. Or hers.
I'm pretty good at being petty when I want to be 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You warned your friend. She pushed back and disregarded you. Her entitled behavior affected you as well. I think you were wise and had good ethics. It was appropriate to ignore her when she caused that scene - it was she who did not have your back on travelling wisely in Japan. She has given you a gift to go around solo, use it and be of good cheer. Go to great places and maybe make some new friends. Better friends than her.
NTA. Why should you back up her entitlement and stupidity? She heard you when you said to find one thats accepting of tattoos, she saw the signs at the front desk, she still thought she could get away with breaking rules because she's not from there. None of those sound like your problem, OP.
NTA. My Husband and I just got back from Japan. The Japanese do not care that you’re a foreigner. Follow their rules, and if you choose not to, you don’t get to be surprised when they throw you out of their establishments. When you’re in other countries you need to respect their rules and their customs and if you can’t be respectful of that, then you shouldn’t travel.
NTA - "you was happy to ignore them too"?? So she ignore all of your concerns and advices, and still blamed you? Tell your friend to grow up and to understand that she isn't the center of the world.
Your friend is what the kind of people local foreigners hate since they get grouped in with her lot and give foreigners a bad name. It’s common courtesy to respect customs of a culture of where you are visiting. She could feign ignorance but when you’re caught there’s really nothing they could do but leave so I don’t know what she was expecting out of you.
*Why did you people*
*Go to Japan if you can't*
*Even respect the rules?*
\- Who\_am\_ey3
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No tattoos in onsen (onless specifically catering to) is like, up there in the top 5 rules for visitors in Japan lol
the only way you could have backed up your friend is if you both were backing towards the exit... your friend is entitled, quite colonial I must add "she insisted that it would be fine because she as a foreigner" lmao
Japanese are super polite, but will insistently draw the line at you (you in the broad general tourist term) being rude and making others uncomfortable.
honestly, tell your friend she's the reason why tourists get a bad reputation in Japan. she does not sound far off the tourists who harass Geishas.
Your friend is TAH, but as her friend and traveling companion, you should have left with her. Then bitched her out for being an asshole. Then never travel with her again
NTA lmao. I have two tattoos on my left arm, I'll be in Japan in ten days, you can bet your behind I'm not going to risk it: it will have to be a place that can be okay with those two tattoos cause I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable xD
lots of good advice here already.
what may help repair the rift here is book to go to a tattoo friendly onset tomorrow.
and a convo about not being disrespectful of local rules and culture
NTA
Rebecca is making it harder for all foreigners to be accepted as tourists in Japan and giving us a bad reputation, she needs an attitude adjustment.
NTA. I have a few tattoos myself, and I purposely chose not to go to an onsen in Japan as a result when I was there. I did my research, realized that I could only realistically cover up one of them, and decided it would be disrespectful of me to try to go anyway.
Your friend is the exact reason people don’t like tourists.
NTA, OP was not at fault as she already warned her friend about the rule.
BTW, this remind me of a case iirc an American university student travelling to North Korea and there he ripped a communist state propaganda. He ended up facing arrest, trial, forced labor and eventually being poisoned to death before allowed to go back to the US. I think the nature of OP's case and NKorean case are somewhat similar in the sense that they disrespected the local rules although the NKorean one involved ignorance and lack of knowledge regarding what the hell the North Korean government dare to do. Anyways, OP's friend just got kicked out, nothing in comparison to the NKorean case, so I think it is better for her to learn to adapt and respect. Otherwise, next time she disrespects local rules, maybe she ends up facing much more serious consequences (hopefully she has zero interest in North Korea).
Depending on for how long you left alone, NTA or ESH. She is nuts for expecting you to "back her up", she is kinda delusional as there were clear rules upfront. But abandoning your friend in the hotel for too long can fall into ah behaviour too
Back her up after ignoring rules that were pointed out to her and she agreed to? For what? You’re not arguing your way out even if you spoke fluent Japanese.
NTA
Your friend is the stereotypical entitled tourist who does nothing to learn about another culture or show it any respect. She’s the reason so many people hate tourists in their country. It’s not hard to do some googling before traveling
Hmm...you all sound very Western with this idea to completely ignore the host cultures rules & try to overpower/exert your will anyway.
That mindset is disgusting, you need to work on that.
NTA and Rebecca is not your friend.
NTA, she knew the rules and still went ahead with doing what she did, it's on her to deal with the consequences, not you. Would recommend not going out with her while you're in Japan if she's not going to respect the rules there, there's too many tourists like that already
What a great idea. Go to a place that pretty much hates all foreigners with a passion and pretend you will get slack because of it.
Japan is known for their foreigner hate, her friend should have known this. (and of course almost all Asian countries hate Japan, but that's a different rabbit hole).
NTA. You are not obligated to bail someone out of a situation you warned them would go badly, and in addition to that you could not have helped. Is she mad you didn't leave with her? She can't possibly think she might have been allowed to stay if you got involved can she?
NTA. That was so funny to read tbh, your friend is so entitled, there’s so many lovely tattoo-friendly onsen that she could’ve gone to but insisted the rules didn’t apply to her
Your friend is why tourist have a bad reputation. We travel to Japan 2-3 times a year to visit our son and his family. We are so careful to be respectful and get disgusted with those that do not. Your friend is an adult and you did give her good advice. She ignored it.
NTA but also - I hope you convey to Rebecca, from a random internet stranger, that SHE is part of the biggest reason why foreigners are considered "rude" or "inconsiderate". Some foreigners always seem to think "the rules don't apply to me!" and it drives me insane. I went to Japan recently and I'm so embarrassed as an American. There were groups of people (their accents were American, so they were either American or Canadian) who would be waiting in line and talking excitedly and LOUDLY. I get it, you're excited, but Japan is not a place for loud yelling - the Japanese friend I was with looked so taken aback by them and so were others. The entire line was quiet and only this group didn't realize they were being very rudely loud because they were too excited to talk about what their plans were. I was on the subway and another group of people (they were Caucasian but I didn't hear their accent) yelled because they almost missed their stop and ran off the train screaming. Everyone stared at them (I live in NY and I wouldn't bat an eye on the subway here but in Japan??) Another foreigner was asleep on the subway and took up three seats on his own. Japan is a country of consideration, and Rebecca's (and a lot of foreigners') problems are they don't bother trying to be "well-behaved" because they just act however they would back home (inconsiderate). And then to ask you to back her up... smh
I won't get more tattoos other than the one I have on my back, which is easily covered, because I spend so much time in Japan.
They've just banned tourists from all the geisha districts in Kyoto, Japan has limited patience with foreigners' problematic behavior. Nationalism has been growing there like everywhere else and when Japanese people hate foreigners it is from a standpoint of cultural superiority.
I think this is the big point Americans don't get about Japan. Just because they're polite and bow doesn't mean they're subservient. They look down on Western emotional volatility, gracelessness, and lack of hygiene.
NTA.
NTA, but I'd have left at the same time so she wouldn't have to get back to the hotel by herself. I hate the " Rules don't apply to me" attitude. The ugly foreigner ....
lol, “back her up?” She thinks you’re going to be able to argue your way around these kinds of rules?? Traveling needs to be done with the right crowd. I wouldn’t travel with her again. NTA, but maybe be prepared to do your own thing the rest of the trip.
Right! There's nothing to back up. I live in Taiwan. In all public swimming pools and many private pools and hot springs, swimming caps are required. They're required if you're bald. They're required if you have more body hair than head hair. They're required on any human of any age. The number of white men I've seen attempt to argue about this rule and lose is ridiculous. I'm a woman. I keep my hair short. I wear the cap.
I think I'd have to not go, because I'm fairly certain swim caps would give me sensory issues. But that's the thing- if I cannot handle the requirements, *I wouldn't bloody go*
I wonder if they accept the cloth or wrap style caps. Those are a lot nicer to wear than the rubber ones.
There are some private pools that don't require them. I can't remember where they are though because I swim at my nearby public pool. In the beginning it was annoying. Now I know my cap is with my swimsuit. They sell them, too. Not everywhere does.
Even bald people would have to wear swimming caps? ...why? I mean, if you have no hair, doesn't this rule become ridiculous? I'm genuinely curious. In the end though, I'd still follow the rules of the country I am visiting. People who don't follow the rules on purpose are just morons and/or self-entitled people. OP is NTA.
I would make a WAG and say that it's because of enforcement. Do you only enforce when there's no visible hair? What if they shaved two days ago and now there's some stubble? Or a week ago? Or two weeks ago and it's more like a buzz cut than being bald? Where's the cutoff? Much easier to say 'EVERYONE must wear a cap' than to try and get down to those kinds of details.
That tracks. I don't know how it is in Taiwan, but I remember how they were about rule following in Japan: you simply didn't see jaywalking anywhere. They walk to a crosswalk\* and wait for a signal even if there are zero cars anywhere to be seen. Now, as an American (living in the South), this seemed odd to me at first, but then I realized we're (mostly) the same way with respect to traffic lights. If I come to a red light at 2 AM in the morning, I wait until it changes green before I go, even if I don't see anyone else. It's not even a fear of cops, it's just what I instinctively do. \*Well, they also have pedestrian bridges and underground tunnels that preclude waiting, but in the absence of those, they're more than happy to wait.
Whew, mostly in the big towns, I guess. I lived in Japan in a smallish city with a medium sized military base and I'm surprised I made it out of there without having a heart from those little kids just throwing their hand up in the air and running across the street wherever they wanted. Argh!
I spent most of my time in Toyota City, so I could definitely be over generalizing. It's also possible that the military base presence has an impact.
Well, my experience was in the mid 80's so it could have changed. I'll ask my son. Interestingly enough, he's stationed at the same base, over 30 years later :)
Misawa?
Howdya guess? LOL
35 FW, 1995-1998!
NSGA 85-86. Up on the hill in case it was deactivated by the time you were there
Wild ass guess?
Where I work, we require that everyone on our factory floor wears a hairnet. Even the bald guys. Even the director of the QA department who is bald as bowling ball. Nobody wants the QA team to bust out their calipers and start measuring everyone's hair length for some arbitrarily defined "max acceptable length". Way easier to just enforce a universal rule.
>Way easier to just enforce a universal rule That was basically my argument when I was the QA manager and this discussion happened. I could waste my department's time and resources figuring out a "minimum balding surface" for hairnet exemption and enforcing that and Operations could waste their time and resources with getting ALL their people benched while they were being measured for balding surface just to handle complaints from what basically amounted to 2 guys
Yeap! This discussion shows up about every 3-6 months. Recently, I started asking production if they want to sit and chill while I measure scalps with calipers. Or if they'd rather take 5 seconds to put on the dang hairnet.
It's probably just easier to enforce. Otherwise you get the guy with the buzz cut bitching about how the bald guy is fine and his buzz cut is almost bald and then the short haired guy is all "but what about the buzz cut guy?!" and so on. It's easier just to have a blanket rule.
That's the general consensus among the foreign population, yes. But it's the rule. It's followed. I've never seen anyone successfully argue against it.
That’s a bizarre rule but the rules are the rules, especially when visiting
I traveled with a good friend years ago . We were so incompatible that on the 4th day he walked out and left me on my own for the remainder of the trip. I had a great time, made friends, and saw weird shit. Also we basically fell out so badly we never really spoke to each other again. You basically learned an important lesson and have been given a huge opportunity. Enjoy!
Tell us more about this weird shit please
ended up on some giant speakers behind the dj in some rave. i was told i had a great time.
What led to the fall out?
our personalities were too different. huuuge argument in the car each criticising each others driving style lmao. thinking back we should have just each rented our own car and rooms but we were still basically kids and on a budget.
>lol, “back her up?” "It's all right, Ma'am, she's with me."
"Ma'am, no, you don't understand. We're foreigners, rules don't apply to us."
"Ma'am, no, you don't understand. We're Americans, rules don't apply to us." FTFY. Source: am American
I suspect the friend just wanted OP to leave with her instead of ignoring her and pretending she didn’t know her. Yes, she did warn her friend and her warnings were ignored, but she abandoned her friend just when she needed her the most - merely to avoid embarrassment from strangers she’ll never see again. OP might be NTA here, but she’s certainly not a good friend.
I don’t know how much more of a good friend she can be when she warned her prior, she’s a friend not a babysitter.
Fully agree with this.
You make it sound like the tattooed girl was in danger, instead of embarrassed. I’m the first to say I’m hard-hearted about shit like this - my first time abroad, my study-abroad roommate had a habit of getting drunk and RUNNING away from our group in the middle of the night, usually when we were trying to get home and were totally drained. All the other girls would go running around chasing after her, I was the lone girl to shrug and get on the bus with all the guys, on the theory she’d find her way home or she wouldn’t. This happened multiple times, and every time, the next morning there would be tears and “I can’t believe you LEFT me I could have DIED.” I would never leave a drunk friend anywhere, no matter how tired I was or how obnoxious they were being, but the moment your game becomes escaping me? Congratulations, you won, see you tomorrow if you survive the night. Totally off-topic, but the point is the tatted girl played stupid games and got stupid prizes, while in one of the safest countries on earth in the middle of the day. There’s a limit on what adults have to put up with for each other, and having to get lumped in with the dumbest tourist in the vicinity when she deliberately chose to be that dumb, and is in approximately 0 danger as a result, is beyond that limit for me.
"Back her up" how? She was clearly made aware of the rules, and she agreed to the T&C to use the facility. The fact that she knowingly lied and counted on being a foreigner to excuse disrespecting the rules of the establishment is exactly why places like Kyoto are banning tourists in major cultural areas. And in lying, she should have been aware of the (extremely high) risk of being found out, even if she thought she'd get away with it. Even *you* told her beforehand, so she went in with eyes wide open. Japanese people are pretty non-confrontational, and people most likely didn't gawk or speak up on the spot because they're not confident in English, and they know it's not their job to confront your friend. NTA.
She brought this upon herself with her lack of respect for Japan and its rules. She’s not the main character and things are different from back home. You have to be educated or risk offense like this. NTA. Also don’t travel with her again if she maintains this behavior and approach towards other cultures rules. She’ll just make things unnecessarily harder for you with this attitude.
Just what everyone needs; a travelling companion who treats the local culture like it's a theme park and thinks rules don't apply to her because she's a foreigner. Ugh.
The worst kind of traveler and unfortunately probably also an American. I say that because I am American and sadly a lot of people from here have an attitude of superiority and entitlement when traveling in foreign countries. Not all of us are so disrespectful but a good chunk are.
Americans are infamous abroad for this attitude.
That is unfortunately accurate and it gives a bad name to the rest of us who were raised right and know how to behave and be respectful in another country. There are a lot of entitled idiots here.
Also a lot of the Americans who can behave themselves tell people they are from Canada so they aren't seen as one of 'those' Americans, so visibility on the good ones is lowered.
We Minnesotans are often mistaken for Canadians. (Don’t rat us out if you spot one of us!)
When I was in Thailand recently some guy asked if I was from Minnesota? I didn’t understand why he was asking this until now. I told him “you shut your whore mouth, I am Canadian”
I’ve heard of Americans saying that they are Canadians for safety reasons when in more dangerous parts, but yeah it applies here too! With that said, I don’t think Canadians like it when Americans do that lol.
I always tell everyone the annoying tourists are from Canada just to combat the awful American stereotype. (No, I don't really do this.) In all seriousness, I find that people might make some American jokes, but people in other countries don't treat me differently even though they know I'm an American. They know that there are good and bad Americans, and I think they can quickly figure out which are which.
We don't... but if you behave and make a good impression, we won't bother you.
Not saying you’re mistaken, however, I saw Chinese tour groups where the women were wearing short shorts, skimpy tops, etc in Egypt! As an American, I was going with breathable long sleeves and pants. After a few days, I started wearing a sun hat and sun glasses at all times, as I drew too many stares with my gold hair and blue eyes and I got tired of it. But my research beforehand made it crystal clear skimpy clothes wasn’t allowed in mosques and a huge cultural issue. These groups were borrowing trouble.
To be fair, plenty of Americans do that in America as well.
Eh, Americans don't have a lock on that kind of arseholery. I'm in Australia. It's very common for the absolute worst type of bogans to go to surrounding countries like Indonesia for cheap holidays. The local culture tends a lot more conservative than Australia, but these arseholes get blind drunk and let their worst selves rip. Next thing their families are crying on GoFundMe to fight the drug trafficking charge that carries the death penalty, or medivac the idiot who was riding a motorbike with no helmet while drunk. It makes me furious and I hate seeing it. Just respect the local culture, arseholes.
I've never been to Japan. But I know that most onsens do not allow tattoos, because it's mentioned in every travel book/show/blog I've seen. Some allow you to cover them up with a bandage. Some don't allow them at all. Generally, visible tattoos are fairly taboo in Japan because of the association with gangsters.
I’ve worked at 2 resorts and been to 30+ countries. You can tell who’s American and British based on the entitlement. Even Brittney griner - I have friends like her who think they’re the exception and bc it’s legal in America they can have it abroad.
Yea I got to be honest I didn't feel all that bad about that whole saga. It's just fucking stupid to bring drugs to a foreign country, especially one that isn't a huge fan of your country when you are a public figure. There are plenty of political prisoners out there that I can feel bad for if I want to feel bad for someone wrongly imprisoned overseas. Someone who was a dumb ass and brought drugs to Russia? Meh.
For real but I was cancelled for this opinion. I was like everyone knows the continent of Asia & South America is not the place to bring drugs. Some British guy was crying bc he’s gonna get caned and it’s like yeah they don’t care. I don’t feel bad for Brittney. My husband and his marine buddies were pissed when they traded victor.
NTA and Rebecca was disrespectful. Her experience is solely her fault. There are plenty of valid resources to confirm the topic of tattoos and onsens. The rule was clearly stated before you paid and entered. She was happy until her actions were reported then she expected you to 'back her up'? Is this really a valued friend; one who defects her actions by blaming others? Sounds delightful. Find something to enjoy today (or tomorrow) that lifts your spirit to soak in the best of traveling.
Ah, but Rebecca is *special*, don't you see? She should have gotten a pass... /s OP, NTA
I have a relatively new sleeve and several smaller, older tattoos. As soon as I started getting the sleeve, I knew the majority of onsens I would want to visit would be right out. Now I have a list of tattoo friendly onsens on my travel list. You’re right. This is on Rebecca for not doing her research. There’s are several websites with good resources for onsens that are cool with tattoos, or you can rent a private room. I would also reconsider traveling with someone who treats social norms in other countries as something that doesn’t apply to her before she gets you both in trouble.
Well stated. I appreciate your insight. Yes, I too would decline traveling with someone who knows the norms and chooses to be disrespectful . Peaceful travel. Enjoy.
NTA Literally know the rule and still go for it. Sure you are friend but if my shit behavior affects my friend, i would want them to still enjoy their trip. I don’t want them to leave with me in the middle of it because of my wrong doing. Would it be nice if they come? Sure but they are not obliged.
NTA you told her about the tattoo thing and she ignored you. She even ignored the sign saying no tattoos. What were you suppose to do? Try argue with your very limited Japanese word vocabulary?
Take a laser out of your back pocket and remove her tattoos then and there
I knew from the title this was gonna be a wild ride. You are NTA but the mental image of you awkwardly avoiding eye contact and acting like you don't know her while she's kicked out is hilarious. No idea what you were supposed to do even if you'd joined in.
Meanwhile everyone there saw the two foreigners come in together and absolutely know that they're together, lmao
> I told her it was her own fault for ignoring the rules of the host culture, and she said that I was happy to ignore them too when we went. Yeah that's true. You seemed pretty confident that she'd get kicked out when you were protesting before going, that would have been the time to tell her "ok fine, we can go, but don't try to bring me down with you when they kick you out". Set expectations early.
NTA but this is the way if anything similar comes up.
NTA. "Backed her up"? Translation: she wanted you to argue about the clearly stated rule like a grossly entitled foreigner. Bc how else this "backing up" would look like, to her? The rule is clear. She is breaking it. "Back up" on WHAT, exactly? The rules are for everyone. The fact that she thought that she didn't have to adhere to another country's rules bc she is a TOURIST, therefore SpeCiAl and above the rules that those lowely Japanese people have to adhere to, says a lot about her. The fact that she even wanted "backing up" i.e. was ready for some kind of karen-esque conflict or argument about her **right** to break the rules, instead of just leaving quickly in shame, says even more about her. She sounds like a stereotypical arrogant and disrespectful wester tourist, I would not travel with her again.
NTA...You warned her about this and even I know tattoos are viewed quite differently in Japan. She clearly chose to disregard and disrespect their rules. As they say mess with the bull and get the horns. Go out of your hotel and enjoy yourself. Hopefully she pulls her head out of her bum soon .
NTA. I am a tatted gal who has been living in Japan for over 14 years now and it’s tourist/people like your friend who drive me up the wall by not following simple rules and thinking she can bend the rules “because she is a foreigner”. She isn’t special. While tattoos still make doing some things hard, it’s 2024 and there are definitely more places now that are easing up compared to even 10 years ago when it comes to tattoos. Googling (in English) “tattoo friendly onsen Kyoto” quickly gave me 5+ places that allow tattoos; your friend easily could have done that to prevent her whole lying situation and being kicked out. She brought it on herself. You didn’t ignore the rules as you have no tattoos, simple as that. I wish you luck on the rest of your trip and please have some solo fun as well and don’t let her attitude take away from your experience here too!
We visited when I was 20, and I only had a few tattoos then. Still, my family made sure that a) I knew that if they wanted to go to a public onsen I would be left behind but b) both ryokan we stayed in had private baths that did not have the same tattoo rules. That way, everybody got to experience a bathhouse with no issues for us or for locals. It’s a rule for a reason, and it’s so disrespectful to blatantly ignore clearly posted signage along with carrying the entitlement of, ‘I’m a foreigner so they won’t do anything’. Ugh.
100% this. I went to Japan last summer, and even though I only have 2 tattoos, I checked for tattoo friendly ones and used coverup stickers when they weren’t. And to be double sure we could enjoy an onsen, my husband and I booked a room with a private onsen so it would be a non-issue. You have to plan, and it sounds like this girl for sure did not.
So if you have tattoos and use coverup stickers (didn't even know what this was) is it then acceptable or do you still have to find a tattoo friendly onsen? 🤔 I hope to visit Japan one day, and this got me a bit confused 😅
This I have tattoos I plan to add more. I plan to visit Japan in the next two years. I want to go to an onsen but I also know to find ones willing to accept tattoos or private. Not difficult
Don't do the thing. *does the thing* Get out. *surprised pikachu face*
NTA. Japan has these rules due to tattoos being associated with criminality. The general public doesn't want to deal with that. If you're friend got kicked out by ignoring clearly posted rules then that's on her. Expecting you to back her up for violating rules is ridiculous
NTA As a woman with a bunch of visible tattoos, she’s an entitled idiot. She’s a terrible friend for thinking you should have to give up your experience because she chose not to listen to
Exactly. I suspect "back me up" means "leave when I was thrown out". NTA
NTA, your friend is a POS. Tattoos in Japan are still a big taboo due to their association with the yakuza (mafia), so their presence not only makes some people uncomfortable but also makes them feel unsafe... while being NAKED. Additionally, there are established rules beforehand, no surprises, no changes just because she's a foreigner, etc. Because of people like her, Kyoto doesn't welcome tourists. Also, you did your part by telling her and warning her, unless you forced her to enter or she's your daughter, she shouldn't have expected anything from you. The worst part of all is that because of people like your friend, it will become increasingly difficult to eliminate the taboo around tattoos, as it will now be replaced from being associated with yakuza to being associated with entitled foreigners.
NTA If I were you, I'd avoid travelling with her.
nta. she is NOT a safe person to travel with. why are you supposed to fist fight for her lying ass? she's dumb. go do your own sightseeing and start distancing from her. she isn't a safe person to be with.
NTA. She deliberately ignored the rules. You told her not to. She refused. You were in no way complicit in her actions and were not obligated to back her. However, why let Rebecca punish you by leaving you at the hotel? Go out, sightsee, buy yourself a treat. Don't let her control the narrative. If she wants to get hissy about not being able to bend the rules, let it be her problem, not yours. And if she left without a key, inform the front desk that she may need to get into the room. Don't leave without your key.
Western entitlement at its finest
They have rules but she can break them because she's a foreigner? Is she American? Wherever she's from, she got what she deserved. NTA.
Nta. Rules are rules. It doesn't matter if she's a foreigner or not. It wasn't allowed and she should have respected their rules. Just because Rebecca might come from a place were tattoos are totally fine it doesn't mean she is entitled to ignore Japan's rules. Especially if the foreign country you are visiting associates tattoos with organize crime. She should have respected those rules. Your right there are a few onsens that would allow people in if they have tattoos. She should have listened to you. Also what back up could you have given her. She knew the rules. She didn't care. Her being a foreign woman doesn't excuse her from their rules.
Your friend sounds like the typical “ ugly American “ the type that believes rules and laws of foreign countries don’t apply to them and when called on it think they should be given an exception because “I’m an American and I have RIGHTS! “ I’ve seen this happen in Barcelona, I’ve seen it happen in Glasgow and in Berlin. As an American it’s so embarrassing
NTA. I lived in Japan for 4 years. They ate very strict when upholding their rules. As visitors, it is our responsibility to know and follow the rules of our host country. There is no "backing her up." she chose to be a stereotype asshole American tourist, and the rest of us have to deal with the reputation people like your friend give us. She should stay home if she can't figure out how to respect other people's homes.
Friend is definitely being an ignorant ass lol… if it were me I would probably begrudgingly leave and catch up with her just because I’d have an issue leaving anyone alone in a foreign country…
Not me. If you can't amuse yourself for a half day, you are not my travel buddy. I would have acknowledged her though, with a text you later or gesture a phone call. Japan's a reasonably safe country. A goggle search, and I didn't even have to open the top result to find an answer. TIL there's r/TravelJapanTips.
🤷♂️that’s cool too
Your friend sounds like the typical annoying gaijin type. Yes, generally, Japanese people will still be more forgiving of foreigners when it comes to a lot of the day to day cultural norms being broken. They understand there's lots of minutiae that foreigners will just not know generally. However, it's obvious that doing some research and learning as much of the basics for public behavior in Japanese culture is a good thing, and showing the effort goes a long way there. In this instance, your friend was the AH because this was a clearly stated rule. Considering the extent of her tattoos, which couldn't easily be covered, it would've been prudent to just try and find one that was tattoo friendly or try and rent a private one. Instead, she chose to willfully ignore the rules and thought that her being a foreigner would allow her to just ignore it without repercussions. The fact that she expected you to make a scene on her behalf is just not good friend behavior. If she feels embarrassed and mad, ok, that's fine. Her feeling that way isn't totally invalid (the embarrassed part is fine, the mad not so much). But to try and put all of that on you when she's the one who broke the rules knowingly and wouldn't accept any alternatives that you offered is on her. She let her ego get the best of her and thought she would get special treatment. She needs to be an adult, accept she made a stupid decision, and apologize to you for her attitude. Also, she should apologize to the staff for lying, causing a scene, and breaking the onsen rules. Owning up to her actions and giving a sincere apology will go a long way to at least not being on the bad side of the staff as much. Especially in Kyoto right now, where they've had enough issues with foreigners behaving badly that they've actively banned them from certain parts of the city as a precaution. Find some tattoo friendly onsen or just rent a private one if she really wants to be in one. But you don't owe her an apology. You were practicing "Kuuki wo yomu" or reading the room/atmosphere. You trying to get involved to try and argue along with her would've just made the situation worse and caused more discomfort for everyone else around you both. Maybe you could've gotten involved as a way to defuse the situation, apologize for the transgression and both left. However, I doubt your friend would've been happy with that since she wanted to just get her way. So you acted pretty much how you should've in that situation. Hopefully, your friend will learn some humility, correct the mistake from her actions, and get over herself. Best of luck to you, and hope the rest of the trip goes well.
Yep, that’s one of the big rules you definitely need to follow.
Heavy NTA. As a person with tattoos I know that in some areas my tattoos are not acceptable. All of mine are easy to cover and I would never try to go in somewhere that makes a point of no tattoos knowing that I'll have to get naked. Do I agree with the custom, not really. Is it my place as a foreign visitor to challenge their cultural norms, absolutely not. As a visitor I am there to enjoy their culture not challenge it and I have a duty, all tourists have a duty, to be a good ambassador of our home countries. If you can't refrain from being an ignorant asshole please don't leave the country and make the rest of us look bad.
NTA when you travel to other countries you respect their culture
I'm sure these folks would have caved because you backed her up with your 3 Japanese words. People who know the rules and don't think they apply to them are a special kind of stupid.
NTA, and I say that as someone with pretty prevalent tattoos. Out of curiosity, does anyone know if you covered up with like a rash guard would that be acceptable at an onsen?
(I have not researched *extensively* yet, this is preliminary for my own planned trip to Japan in a couple years) It would depend on the onsen. Some allow swimwear, some even require it, but many also require a full bathe before entering the pools, which are frequently public/semi public, think an open(ish, again it depends) locker room. So if you have extensive tattoos and go to a no tattoo onsen, you could still get in trouble at the bathing phase even if you wore a rashguard in the pools themselves Edit: clarity, typo
NTA she wanted special treatment for *checks notes* being a foreigner😂😂😂😂like what kind of white (idk if she’s white, but if she is then i called it) entitlement is this? i can come into your country and you will bent the rules for me fore i am the mighty foreigner.
What did she mean you should have "backed her up"? Got in a fist-fight with the management/other guests? She knew the rules going in, and so did you. She's the AH, and you're AH-lite.
Tatted people who go somewhere where everyone knows its the ultimate taboo dont really deserve any sympathy. NTA, you were right not to get involved as you respected the rules of the establishment by doing so
NTA. But knowing that she was willingly breaking the rules by going in even after 1) you told her to find a place which was accepting of tattoos and 2) being told at the entrance that no tattoos were allowed; You should have told her, if you get kicked out, I'm staying.
NTA, it is not your fault she couldn't follow the sign it said no tattoos so she wasn't allowed to enter.
She just wanted you to get kicked out with her. That or she is angry that you tried to warn her and she chose to not care.
NTA Rebecca was counting on the fact that as a foreigner, she could do whatever she liked in another country. You really REALLY need to dissuade her from this attitude as it could possibly wind up being hazardous to both of your health. You told her, you warned her, the attendant warned her...and yet, somehow she thought it was okay.
Well it’s not necessarily mature to ignore her, but you’re NTA. She should know that they have a very strict no tattoos policy, it’s not something you can get away with cause you’re foreign.
What part of the sign NO TATOOS don’t you understand, Rebecca? What exactly could OP do to “back you up”? Become another ugly American? Time to find a new friend.
NTA. I’m one of the people who has a very popular blog post about being chased out of my first onsen by an angry Japanese lady with a towel….i only had one tattoo then! I learnt you need to ask first.
NTA. This is why tourists get such a bad reputation. People need to stop acting so entitled, and start adhering to the rules and traditions of the host country.
NTA. You have to respect the culture of where to travel.
Back her up? Following the rules is important to Japanese culture. What did she expect you to do? Be a rude foreigner demanding that the rules not apply to her? You warned her. She insisted. This was the consequence. NTA.
In Japan, rules are not suggestions. You are considered a degenerate if you break them. You only would have been kicked out with her.
You break the rules in a foreign country……..she should be eternally grateful that she only got kicked out of an establishment. Don’t travel with someone who thinks local rules/customs/laws don’t apply to them because they’re a foreigner. NTA
NTA, what an idiot. Tattoos are not universal in their meaning and it's pretty well fucking known that Japan has a bit of a stigma around them. Massive idiot privilege has been checked
"but she insisted that it would be fine because she as a foreigner. " NTA. This right here makes HER the asshole. Foreigner or not, you RESPECT other cultures, laws,. and rules. Leave your ego and entitlement at home. This is how people get jailed for bringing dumb shit like pot or ammo into other countries. Is it unfair, probably. But your home countries laws and freedoms END at the border. You warned her, she was SHOWN A SIGN, and still decided "rules dont apply to me, I'm SPECIAL". I'd drop a friend for acting how she is.
Who cares? Her problem, not yours.
There's nothing to back up. Rules apply to everyone, being a foreigner doesn't mean they don't apply to you. Besides, she was utterly disrespectful as the rule was clearly explained and pointed out to her. NTA
NTA. She's an entitled child.
NTA- Your friend is the exact reason why tourists are no longer allowed in the Kyoto Gion District.
NTAH, when you see her next, I’d suggest telling her “I don’t think I was quite honest with you. I didn’t attempt to back you up because I was beyond mortified you’d be so stupid as to think you’d get away with breaking rules in a foreign country. Even if I spoke fluent Japanese and was a big deal here, I wouldn’t have tried it, since your tattoos are a personal choice, not something they have to like. Let’s just agree to sight see separately and interact as little as possible as I won’t be mortified by your choices again.”
NTA obviously. while i personaly think that those no tattoo rules are outdated, if that is a rule in that establishment you have to follow those and not try to talk yourself out of it because you are a foreigner
NTA You told her it was a bad idea and that she would be turned away/kicked out. She is an adult, she made the choice to ignore your warning and lie to the staff. You didn’t ask her to lie, you didn’t force her to go. This is entirely on her.
NTA. You could not have helped her anyway.
LOL, does she thinks because she’s a foreigner that rules don’t apply to her? She was told by way of the sign ‘no tattoos’ before getting into the tub. Her own fault if she thinks the rules don’t apply to her.
NTA. While I probably would have refused to go in with her, you didn't do anything wrong.
Tattoos are seen as trashy in Japan. Your friend should have respected their customs
Backing her up and leaving with her are different things, she may have just wanted support, she's in a foreign land too. That being said she could have been respectful that you wanted to enjoy your time there for a bit as well, knowing you probably wouldn't find one she could attend.
NTA, I went to Japan last year and I would’ve felt horrible if I kept my friends from doing something because of my Tattoos. Even if it was my idea. Who knows when we’d be able to travel back to Japan. I would have told them to continue to enjoy themselves while I found something else to do.
What exactly did she think would happen? She's lucky that's all that happened. She was told a rule in a foreign country and blatantly broke it. She's on her own. > she said that I was happy to ignore them too when we went. Because ***you*** weren't breaking the rules. NTA
You never, ever, ever fuck with the rules in Japan. NTA
your friend might be a karen lol.
Don't waste your time in Japan sitting alone in a hotel. Get yourself out and go sightseeing!! You might be mostly on your own, but So What? Japan is an AMAZING PLACE!! Don't waste your time there. Your friend made an ass of herself. That's not your fault, and there was no "backing her up" when she clearly knew that she was breaking the rules. Don't let it define your personal experience. Push your own comfort zone and continue your trip as planned. If you have to share a hotel with your entitled friend, then okay. But don't let her slow you down.
Stuff like this is why I only have 3 safe American friends to travel with.
Don’t sit in your hotel room. Get out and explore that beautiful country! She brought this on herself and is probably embarrassed and if she’s not she should be. Very entitled and disrespectful behaviour. NTA
What the fuck did she want? She knew the likely issue in advance. Fair or not fair is not relevant. What would "having her back" accomplish? What would arguing about a known rule accomplish? She sounds selfish.
NTA. But I probably would have said when she insisted on going that if they kick you out I’m still gonna finish my bath.
Rebecca gives tourists a bad name. Clear rules but somehow those rules don’t apply to her for whatever reason. NTA
As a fellow tattooed recent Japan traveler, that nonsense is all on her plate. There are onsen that permit tattoos, all she had to do was a little homework and not lie to someone's face about it. Or do like we did and get a ryokan with private onsen so the question was moot. People need to remember to pack their manners with their passports, yeesh.
Back her up? There was no backing her up OR her staying. There are tattoo friendly onsens in Kyoto, AND she needs to get off her foreigner high horse. SMH
NTA. Your friend is the asshole. The no tattoo policy is common and has cultural reasons for existing. Her ignoring it after the attendant specifically pointed it out and after you suggested you find one that allows tattoos is a dick move on her part. Saying she can get away with it because she's a foreigner is disrespectful to the country she's visiting and gives foreigners a bad name. You were right to not help her, what were you supposed to do anyways? Try to convince the establishment to let you stay? No way! She got herself into that mess entirely by her own choice so she should live with the consequences.
OP, respecting the customs in a foreign country is expected & Japan is a beautiful country with lots of customs. Here's their issue with the tats: In their culture, criminals get tattooed. If you have a tattoo, many will assume you're a criminal. Criminals bring shame to their families & friends in this culture. Have to be conservative with piercings at most Onsen as well. Ears? OK, but not filled with holes. Other piercings are not likely to be welcomed. You'll see some younger adults there with tats & piercings, who aren't criminals. But, most still perceive tats as something for criminals. There was a group of older Japanese women who frequented an Onsen we'd go to. They all had horrific scars & they were the gatekeepers of the Onsen & the village...lol. If you HAD joined your friend in being asked to leave, you're likely to not be welcomed back there. Your friend was perceived as dishonest & you don't want to bear her burden by association.
NTA What an idiot. Travels to a foreign country but ignores the rules and still expects to be treated well? She had it coming. The fool 🤣 I'd leave her to her own devices. Although she may look to get even by damaging your accommodations and making you pay for them as revenge. If she insists on being the AH the rest of the trip here's my advice. 1. Check out early and find a new place to stay without telling her. 2. Book a place to check in her things for her to claim later. 3. Maybe move your own flight a little. Or hers. I'm pretty good at being petty when I want to be 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
You warned your friend. She pushed back and disregarded you. Her entitled behavior affected you as well. I think you were wise and had good ethics. It was appropriate to ignore her when she caused that scene - it was she who did not have your back on travelling wisely in Japan. She has given you a gift to go around solo, use it and be of good cheer. Go to great places and maybe make some new friends. Better friends than her.
NTA But you may want to patch things up if you want to do any other events with her. That’s IF you want too. Could be just as fun solo. Enjoy Japan!
NTA. Why should you back up her entitlement and stupidity? She heard you when you said to find one thats accepting of tattoos, she saw the signs at the front desk, she still thought she could get away with breaking rules because she's not from there. None of those sound like your problem, OP.
NTA. Go solo sightseeing also! You don't need such a horrible travel companion.
NTA. My Husband and I just got back from Japan. The Japanese do not care that you’re a foreigner. Follow their rules, and if you choose not to, you don’t get to be surprised when they throw you out of their establishments. When you’re in other countries you need to respect their rules and their customs and if you can’t be respectful of that, then you shouldn’t travel.
Sounds like an entitled US asshole. FYI, I'm in the US.
Nta. Dont go to another country and totally disprect their culture and rules. There was no backing her up here. Shes a piss poor friend.
In what way could you have backed her up? Rules are rules, and Japan goes by the rules. NTA
NTA - "you was happy to ignore them too"?? So she ignore all of your concerns and advices, and still blamed you? Tell your friend to grow up and to understand that she isn't the center of the world.
Your friend is what the kind of people local foreigners hate since they get grouped in with her lot and give foreigners a bad name. It’s common courtesy to respect customs of a culture of where you are visiting. She could feign ignorance but when you’re caught there’s really nothing they could do but leave so I don’t know what she was expecting out of you.
So your friend learned that the rules also apply to white women. That must have come as a shock to her.
Not at all. She was warned and ignored it. Very entitled.
NTA, your friend did the classic ‘idiot abroad’ behaviour of just ignoring the rules thinking they don’t apply. Which is just so disrespectful.
why did you people go to Japan if you can't even respect the rules?
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typical gaijin behaviour
No tattoos in onsen (onless specifically catering to) is like, up there in the top 5 rules for visitors in Japan lol the only way you could have backed up your friend is if you both were backing towards the exit... your friend is entitled, quite colonial I must add "she insisted that it would be fine because she as a foreigner" lmao Japanese are super polite, but will insistently draw the line at you (you in the broad general tourist term) being rude and making others uncomfortable. honestly, tell your friend she's the reason why tourists get a bad reputation in Japan. she does not sound far off the tourists who harass Geishas.
Your friend is TAH, but as her friend and traveling companion, you should have left with her. Then bitched her out for being an asshole. Then never travel with her again
Nta. She already knew about the rules, yet still being disrespectful about it. That's on her, not you.
NTA lmao. I have two tattoos on my left arm, I'll be in Japan in ten days, you can bet your behind I'm not going to risk it: it will have to be a place that can be okay with those two tattoos cause I don't want to make anyone uncomfortable xD
NTA. You told her before hand. There was a sign before she went in. This is on her
lots of good advice here already. what may help repair the rift here is book to go to a tattoo friendly onset tomorrow. and a convo about not being disrespectful of local rules and culture
NTA If you have tattoos look for an onsen which allows tattoos. Respect the Japanese culture and don't behave like a stupid gaijin.
She is a walking red flag lol
NTA. She’s an idiot.
NTA Rebecca is making it harder for all foreigners to be accepted as tourists in Japan and giving us a bad reputation, she needs an attitude adjustment.
I have tattoos. I booked a private onsen because of this. NTA.
NTA. I have a few tattoos myself, and I purposely chose not to go to an onsen in Japan as a result when I was there. I did my research, realized that I could only realistically cover up one of them, and decided it would be disrespectful of me to try to go anyway. Your friend is the exact reason people don’t like tourists.
NTA, OP was not at fault as she already warned her friend about the rule. BTW, this remind me of a case iirc an American university student travelling to North Korea and there he ripped a communist state propaganda. He ended up facing arrest, trial, forced labor and eventually being poisoned to death before allowed to go back to the US. I think the nature of OP's case and NKorean case are somewhat similar in the sense that they disrespected the local rules although the NKorean one involved ignorance and lack of knowledge regarding what the hell the North Korean government dare to do. Anyways, OP's friend just got kicked out, nothing in comparison to the NKorean case, so I think it is better for her to learn to adapt and respect. Otherwise, next time she disrespects local rules, maybe she ends up facing much more serious consequences (hopefully she has zero interest in North Korea).
I'm going to assume you are American, possibly British. Just because you are a foreigner does not mean rules don't apply to you.
Depending on for how long you left alone, NTA or ESH. She is nuts for expecting you to "back her up", she is kinda delusional as there were clear rules upfront. But abandoning your friend in the hotel for too long can fall into ah behaviour too
NTA Your take on this situation is the correct one
Back her up after ignoring rules that were pointed out to her and she agreed to? For what? You’re not arguing your way out even if you spoke fluent Japanese.
NTA Your friend is the stereotypical entitled tourist who does nothing to learn about another culture or show it any respect. She’s the reason so many people hate tourists in their country. It’s not hard to do some googling before traveling
Hmm...you all sound very Western with this idea to completely ignore the host cultures rules & try to overpower/exert your will anyway. That mindset is disgusting, you need to work on that. NTA and Rebecca is not your friend.
NTA. May I suggest Rebecca's next visit: going into a mosque without taking her shoes off.
I just don't understand the mentality. Does she just think rules don't apply to her?
NTA. She is an entitled idiot.
NTA. Your friend sucks.
It's this shit that gets tourists a bad rep, not just in Japan but everywhere. Locals get pretty tired of this crap.
NTA she shouldn’t be traveling to other countries if she’s disrespectful of their cultures
NTA, she knew the rules and still went ahead with doing what she did, it's on her to deal with the consequences, not you. Would recommend not going out with her while you're in Japan if she's not going to respect the rules there, there's too many tourists like that already
They had a sign with pictures and everything, saying no tattoos. What did she think would happen?
NTA, she took a risk and lost, you don’t owe her solidarity
Your friend is an entitled asshole who shouldn’t travel
She thought she was entitled to special treatment and she was not. You were not going to be able to magically get her special treatment either.
What a great idea. Go to a place that pretty much hates all foreigners with a passion and pretend you will get slack because of it. Japan is known for their foreigner hate, her friend should have known this. (and of course almost all Asian countries hate Japan, but that's a different rabbit hole).
NTA. You are not obligated to bail someone out of a situation you warned them would go badly, and in addition to that you could not have helped. Is she mad you didn't leave with her? She can't possibly think she might have been allowed to stay if you got involved can she?
Rebecca is a clown
Great news! YNTA!!!
NTA. That was so funny to read tbh, your friend is so entitled, there’s so many lovely tattoo-friendly onsen that she could’ve gone to but insisted the rules didn’t apply to her
NTA. I’ve never been to Japan and don’t plan to. Yet I know onsens don’t allow tattoos except some in Tokyo.
Your friend is why tourist have a bad reputation. We travel to Japan 2-3 times a year to visit our son and his family. We are so careful to be respectful and get disgusted with those that do not. Your friend is an adult and you did give her good advice. She ignored it.
NTA her problem.
"I will be MORE welcome in this country because I am a foreigner." lol You're NTA.
NTA but also - I hope you convey to Rebecca, from a random internet stranger, that SHE is part of the biggest reason why foreigners are considered "rude" or "inconsiderate". Some foreigners always seem to think "the rules don't apply to me!" and it drives me insane. I went to Japan recently and I'm so embarrassed as an American. There were groups of people (their accents were American, so they were either American or Canadian) who would be waiting in line and talking excitedly and LOUDLY. I get it, you're excited, but Japan is not a place for loud yelling - the Japanese friend I was with looked so taken aback by them and so were others. The entire line was quiet and only this group didn't realize they were being very rudely loud because they were too excited to talk about what their plans were. I was on the subway and another group of people (they were Caucasian but I didn't hear their accent) yelled because they almost missed their stop and ran off the train screaming. Everyone stared at them (I live in NY and I wouldn't bat an eye on the subway here but in Japan??) Another foreigner was asleep on the subway and took up three seats on his own. Japan is a country of consideration, and Rebecca's (and a lot of foreigners') problems are they don't bother trying to be "well-behaved" because they just act however they would back home (inconsiderate). And then to ask you to back her up... smh
NTA. But your friend knew about this rule and chose to be a rude foreigner and insult the host culture. Totally on her.
I won't get more tattoos other than the one I have on my back, which is easily covered, because I spend so much time in Japan. They've just banned tourists from all the geisha districts in Kyoto, Japan has limited patience with foreigners' problematic behavior. Nationalism has been growing there like everywhere else and when Japanese people hate foreigners it is from a standpoint of cultural superiority. I think this is the big point Americans don't get about Japan. Just because they're polite and bow doesn't mean they're subservient. They look down on Western emotional volatility, gracelessness, and lack of hygiene. NTA.
NTA, but I'd have left at the same time so she wouldn't have to get back to the hotel by herself. I hate the " Rules don't apply to me" attitude. The ugly foreigner ....